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Naturalistic removed several of the important points claiming that they had nothing to do with naturalistic pantheism. This is not the case. What was written was well researched and eloquent. I am going to do some more research on my own and add to the previous posts. Please do not remove things you do not understand. Several of the additions had very clear mistakes. @Naturalistic please do not let your personal feelings interfere with the quality of information on this page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.87.197.88 ( talk) 06:10, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
Does anybody have a source on the origin of the term "Naturalistic pantheism"? My best research see that it starts to appear in the media and on blogs around 2002. This seams very recent so it is possible that it just got rediscovered.
134.93.128.12 ( talk) 10:04, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
I am nominating this article as NPOV. I just found this article randomly as I was surfing wikipedia and I found that it has: 1) Very little factual description of what Naturalistic pantheism actually is 2) No references to any source material 3) A voice (especially the critique section) that looks a lot like a critique written by someone and not a summary of critiques of others. I was also supprised that the critique section was longer than the actual description of the religion.
I would say that this article is biased in both directions, both for and against Natural Pantheism, this is not the same as being NPOV.
I can not fix this as I am not an expert on Naturalistic pantheism and am also not a very good writer but I hope someone can fix this article.
bobprime 16:02 26 July 2006 (EST)
I will try to fix this article so it is accurate, well referenced, non POV and non OR. It should not be merged with naturalistic spirituality, which is more of an umbrella term. -- Naturalistic ( talk) 20:56, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
(cur) (last) . . 16:47, 5 Apr 2004 . . David Gerard (you should try to make it less POV, not more)
What are you disputing as being more POV verses NPOV?-PV
As far as I can see the article isn't particularly NPOV. The only thing I found that I think needs addressing was this sentence:
The WPM (founded by former UPS vice-president Paul Harrison), on the other hand, has expanded more considerably due to its promotion of "scientific pantheism", which many critics claim is essentially no more than "atheism for nature lovers"
Who are these 'many critics' who say this? It sounds like a very specific quotation, but no indication as to who it's come from. I've added a cite tag for anyone who's able to provide this info.
Other than that, I've made some very minor tweaks by capitalising the word 'God' where it's used as a proper noun in reference to a single being (even if that being is the Universe itself) because it's a name or title. Where it's used to describe a type of being ("a god") I've left it lower-case. If I've missed any - sorry.
Personally, bearing in mind the existing article on Pantheism as a whole, I'm quite happy this article as an explanation of a kind of Pantheism is as NPOV as an article on religion is going to get without deleting all the content (I'm joking), so I'll stick my neck out and remove the tag. - Dreilyn 12:15, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Disagreements of previous contributors aside, this is a pretty good article. While it does spend a lot of time on criticism, Wikipedia has lots of articles with detailed criticisms of traditional theism, and other belief systems, as well. These just have been spun-off into their own articles. RK
There seems to be some misunderstanding of Spinoza in this article (possibly among the subjects of the article). I've just posted this to Talk:Pantheism (in response to an editing disagreementthere), and my attention was drqawn to this article:
Now, this was fairly hurried and allusive, but much more evidence could be brought against the claim that "the universe, although unconscious and non-sentient as a whole", though I'd agree that Spinoza believed that it "is a meaningful focus for human spirituality. Accordingly, Nature is seen as being "God" only in a non-traditional, impersonal sense." Any thoughts? -- Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 22:39, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
Is the key question for this article to describe what Spinoza believed, or what Naturalistic Pantheists believe (with reference to Spinoza as an influence or inspiration)? If Spinoza's beliefs and those of Naturalistic Pantheists in general differ, which should we be describing in detail in an article on Naturalistic Pantheism? - Dreilyn 12:18, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
I changed the first sentence to describe Naturalistic Pantheism as the belief that the universe is a meaningful focus for mystical fulfillment rather than spirituality. I realize both terms are not quite appropriate since they were invented in relation to religions that believe in (anthropomorphic) deities, but at least mysticism doesn't necessitate belief in spirits or other dualistic nonsense.
The first paragraph of "Criticism and response" seems like original research (if I've got that term right). At any rate, it's not sourced. I'm not sure if this is a problem, given that it's stating some people's opinions, but someone should take a look at it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.237.210.81 ( talk) 02:52, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
This article used to be acceptable about 5 years ago. Since then it has been totally corrupted with inaccurate, unsourced OR and POV material, primarily by critics of this version of pantheism. In its state prior to Feb 2 it was highly misleading. I am undertaking a complete rewrite making this article a worthwhile source, accurate, adequately referenced, and neutral (ie simply describing what it is). -- Naturalistic ( talk) 22:37, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
Jon Harder: IMHO this is tidying up taken beyond beyond anything I can find in the suggested Wikipedia rules and policies. People may well want to go straight from Naturalistic Pantheism to the main organization for this form of pantheism. Or, they may want to go to the Wikipedia article about the organization. With only the Wikipedia link, they only have one option. Why should they not be offered both options? Leaving both in gives users greater freedom and more information.-- Naturalistic ( talk) 00:42, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
What is being described in this article is not natural pantheism. People need to stop making up new terms and start checking if a term already exists. In this case, natural pantheism is pandeism and nothing but that. In addition to that, you should know that the "theism" in pantheism implies the existence of an active God while scientists like Einstein rejected this idea. Therefore Einstein was a pandeist. -- Trickymaster ( talk) 02:54, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
Trickymaster, you need to do quite a bit more checking yourself. First off, this article is called NATURALISTIC Pantheism, not "Natural Pantheism," and Naturalistic is absolutely the right term for a viewpoint that "Nature is all there is." Second, pandeism is the belief that some being called God created the Universe out of himself and became the Universe. This is not at all the same as Naturalistic Pantheism. Third, you need to research Pantheism, which does not at all imply an active God but identiifies the Universe as "God" or the highest object of reverence. -- Naturalistic ( talk) 16:19, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
How I understood it, Pandeism refers to the case where God created the Universe but "ceased to exist" thereafter, whereas naturalistic pantheism is where God is the fundamental properties of the universe itself (ie it's not creationist. Instead, God is the body that governs reality, but not in an interventionist sense) Techno Tron15 ( talk) 00:24, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
As for the term 'naturalistic', I think it is fitting. This is because that in a philosophical sense, naturalism refers to the idea where there is no interventionist entity governing the universe (ie no conscious being has active power to control what was going to happen without intervention). But in this form of pantheism, this description is met, for the whole point is that God is not able to intervene in what was going to happen in the universe's affairs, for God is the universe itself Techno Tron15 ( talk) 00:28, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
In its current state, this page should be merged with the World Pantheist Movement page. I have found no credible sources using this term in the way Harrison and his World Pantheist Movement organization use that term. This expression as defined by Harrison's book and organization doesn't seem to have any precedence before this decade defined in the same way. So is this term just a created term by Harrison and does it warrant its own article? Have any philosophers or theologians used this term as it has been defined on this page? ( Allisgod ( talk) 07:45, 21 August 2012 (UTC))
The term has clearly seen scholarly use prior to that - more than Classical Pantheism, which is your relative preference. We can debate exactly what these people meant by it, but if any of these sources demonstrate a different meaning, the correct action would be to add it, rather than removing a page with a long-established usage. The term has certainly become more prominent since the movement's formation, but was not coined by it. (edit: fixed link)-- Martin Berka ( talk) 08:32, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
Martin, every single use of the phrase that I have found has nothing to do with the way the org. uses the phrase. The main use of the phrase in those books have been a way to reference Spinoza's philosophy. Naturalism in philosophy (and Spinoza) does not refer to nature as in trees, it refers to nature as in natural laws. "Naturalistic pantheism" is used by scholars referring to Natural Law Pantheism - i.e. cause and effect pantheism and even deterministic pantheism. In other words, "Naturalistic pantheism" is similar or the same as "Classical pantheism" according to these works you are referencing. Yet, the way it is presented on this page (and the Pantheism page) is the complete opposite of how those references use the phrase.
It's time to be honest about this. WPM started out with the created phrase "Scientific pantheism" which, like others who have coined phrases to describe their own personal version of pantheism, describes what Harrison and Co. believe. Now, you are using a phrase that has been used in the past, but in a completely opposite way, which makes this page misleading in its current state. If I don't challenge this page on this someone else eventually will. ( Allisgod ( talk) 19:14, 25 August 2012 (UTC))
I've done more research on the phrase "naturalistic pantheism" and have found the following:
In other words, the phrase "naturalistic pantheism" is being used incorrectly or in its own unique way by Harrison and his World Pantheist Movement org. One could argue that Harrison has demonstrated a lack of understanding of the word "naturalism" and/or has just completely ignored the word's previous usage, especially by philosopher Tillich, which I find surprising for a person with an academic background. I think a better phrase might have been "Nature Pantheism" (or Environmentalist Pantheism, or Nature Worship Pantheism, or Green Pantheism..) but that's just my personal opinion. In any case, this page as it stands now has absolutely no relevance other than its association with Harrison and the World Pantheist Movement and should be deleted/merged. ( Allisgod ( talk) 06:32, 27 August 2012 (UTC))
I don't think they use any of those Nature names - it's always Naturalistic, or Scientific, or World Pantheism (mostly branding, that last one). Myself, I find "Nature Worship" a bit insulting. While I can't be sure, it looks like they consider "naturalistic" to mean "physical, monist," and thus fully describable with science. The Naturalism article says it's about the "laws of nature" (not supernatural), and we would have to decide how different that is from "natural laws" (I wonder if you and Naturalistic have not exaggerated your differences). You have reasonably shown different meanings of a phrase used by different groups, but the earlier statistics suggest it is still relatively prominent for Pantheism. I would then suggest bringing those other meanings into this article, instead of deleting it (which would make WPM the lead source for defining "naturalistic pantheism", at the wiki's loss). It would become more diverse and better-sourced, like Classical Pantheism with its multiple meanings. -- Martin Berka ( talk) 20:58, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
"At a minimum"? ;) More seriously, I would say the WPM is the leading user and promoter of this phrase. They should not be the sole source, but ignoring them completely would make the article less useful. We can cut out anything resembling advertising and leave the article with sections for each concept, but I consider organizations very relevant to whatever ideas they promote. -- Martin Berka ( talk) 10:20, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
I have added a definition section, made the history section so it's about history, and greatly reduced the focus on World Pantheist Movement. I did not create that focus, and I thought it was inappropriate.
I have removed most of the references to environment, which I agree is not part of any proper definition of Naturalistic Pantheism. FYI I did not insert that material and I don't know who did.
I have removed the references to the WPM to matters not strictly related to naturalism (eg about loving nature etc). I am not sure what to do about the material related to natural rights, which relate to one meaning of the term naturalism, in ethics.
I have also removed the "Characteristics" section which repeated material about the WPM - here too, I did not insert this material, nor was I at all happy with the focus on the World Pantheist Movement here.
I will continue to work on improving this article including a look at some of the other uses, gleaned from the 1780 book results and 119 Google Scholar results.--
Naturalistic (
talk) 01:39, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
I am working my way through the Google Books results, in the order they show up. Out of 13 so far, I have not encountered a single one that did not coincide with the characterization in my original intro. Including Tillich himself! Tillich contrast Naturalistic Pantheism ("by necessity God is merged into the finite beings, and his being is their being") with Idealistic Pantheism "which identifies God with the universal essence of being." It is this contrast that makes it naturalistic - not the determinism part.-- Naturalistic ( talk) 01:13, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
User "naturalistic" should refrain from editing this page and especially from adding references about his group. The organization, "World Pantheist Movement" under direction by the aforementioned user began using the phrase "naturalistic pantheism" to describe their beliefs (replacing their unique coined phrase Scientific Pantheism). However, those beliefs have little to do with the historical meaning of the phrase "naturalistic pantheism" which has often been used to describe Spinoza's philosophy. ( Allisgod ( talk) 19:38, 30 August 2012 (UTC))
Personal insults like the above are factually worthless and merely add more examples of your bias against me. Hmm, I wonder how I managed to put together the web's largest site on the history of pantheism, which is the number one Google search result, which is packed with direct quotations and all very well sourced and no way focuses just on my own preferred form of pantheism?
You by contrast seem fixated on determinism, block time and Hartshorne and a determination to "own" all the Pantheism-related articles. I made some very reasonable attempts to accommodate those of your edits that were compatible with accuracy and neutrality. You are now deleting every single thing I write regardless of accuracy, sourcing or accuracy.
You have no idea what the majority of scholarly views says. Here are some examples of your "scholarship":
Here you go again. The above comment demonstrates very clearly that your goal is to make Naturalistic Pantheism mean exactly the same as your favorite, Classical Pantheism and is more evidence of your bias in editing. You are the person doing conflict of interest editing and almost everything you say and do demonstrates that.
By contrast my additions mention genuinely Naturalistic Pantheist thinkers. I can easily assemble as many or more examples as you did - and in any case yours failed totally to prove your point. I added quite a few sources to the article, but you deleted them.
The goal of my website was not to satisfy any ambition to be regarded as a world expert, but to provide information about the history of pantheism - it's the number of other sites that find my site useful, plus Google measures of relevance etc, that gain me the top result for history of pantheism. How exactly do you explain that?
My editing is always focussed on neutrality and accuracy. PS I also have a summa cum laude Cambridge degree in European languages and literature so I can and do read many works in the original. My qualifications are better than those of Picton (a preacher and politician) or Worman (an author of language learning books)
.
We have no idea what your background or qualifications are since you refuse to disclose them.
However, you are missing the point. Anyone off the street with zero knowledge or research background can edit Wikipedia, and that's okay as long as what they add is accurate, neutral, relevant not OR etc.--
Naturalistic (
talk) 23:32, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
I am working my way through the Google Books results on Naturalistic Pantheism. 13 so far. I have images of all the relevant sections. Not one of them is in conflict with my original intro - not even Tillich. You are simply misinterpreting what you read. Sources are useful, but only if you understand what they mean and represent what they mean accurately, which you frequently do not. You see everything through deterministic spectacles.-- Naturalistic ( talk) 01:16, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
You are completely ignoring the matter of interpretation of sources. You are interpreting what you see in a specific way and to me it seems that you are not even carefully reading what you see. Tillich contrasts Naturalistic Pantheism (God merged into finite beings, his being = their being) with idealistic pantheism (God=universal essence of being). [Paul Tillich: Theologian of the Boundaries. By Paul Tillich, Mark K. Taylor, Mark Lewis Taylor p165]. Both of these may be deterministic. And that's just Tillich and I presume the 4% of Naturalistic Pantheism occurrences that mention him.
"And if you had any idea what pantheism really meant you wouldn't be calling yourself a "world expert". That's a highly presumptuous statement. So you know what Pantheism means, based on your obsession with Hartshorne, Spinoza and determinism? That's just your preferred viewpoint. All the major dictionaries agree on two points about Pantheism. 1. God = Universe/Nature/Existent things 2. There is some kind of unity of all things. Very few of the reference books mention determinism as being an essential characteristic of pantheism. I do not pretend to espouse all types of Pantheism, nor do I claim that my type is the only type, nor do I go interfering with Classical Pantheism trying to make it look like Naturalistic Pantheism. Pantheism is a complex subject - William Reese lists seven types in his Encyclopedia Britannica article. However, you have given every sign of believing that only your version is the "true pantheism" and you have been editing in that spirit. That's a dangerous attitude for a Wikipedia editor.
By the way, if it's not about you v me, kindly stick to the facts and stop taking every opportunity to try to discredit me personally. We would also be on fairer ground if you informed people who you are. For all anyone knows, you may have an interest as significant as mine and you appear to let your personal viewpoint affect your editing far more than I do.--
Naturalistic (
talk) 02:21, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
--
Naturalistic (
talk) 02:17, 31 August 2012 (UTC) Normal 0 false false false
Are you guys going to keep this farce, this orgy of reverts, going forever more? Time you put the weapons and insults away and agreed to collaborate like grown ups. Peter morrell 06:38, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
This is not a farce Peter, there is meaning to the changes and the conflict is of great importance in maintaining the accuracy and neutrality of Wikipedia's Pantheism articles. Allisgod tried to get the Naturalistic Pantheism article completely deleted (see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Log/2012_August_27#Naturalistic_pantheism). Having failed in that, he is now aiming to transform Naturalistic Pantheism into a version of his favorite
Classical Pantheism. He is really on a crusade to do this.
He confuses inserting sources carefully selected to endorse his viewpoint with accuracy and neutrality. Look at his latest version of the intro which once again introduces determinism and theistic/panentheistic authors. I have tried to compromise on many occasions but Allisgod is determined to impose his determinism-focused version of Pantheism on every article related to this subject. He has been hurling insults at me the whole time and removing references to the largest Pantheist organization in the world, which expressly espouses Naturalistic Pantheism. His insults against me are part of the campaign. I know the phrase "He started it" is something from school playgrounds - nevertheless it is true in this case, and I don't respond in kind. My comments on his behavior relate specifically to the issue in hand.--
Naturalistic (
talk) 13:46, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
Out of the four references here: One is completely independent (re Toland) One is the top entry in Google searches for Haeckel pantheism. One is by the vice president of Tor House - a Robinson Jeffers focused foundation One is from the World Pantheist Movement website - which is a reliable source for what its own beliefs are. They are all informative and short, descriptive and accurate, there's nothing being promoted here.-- Naturalistic ( talk) 01:28, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
All the sources in the current history section are books that use the term naturalistic pantheism of the individuals concerned.-- Naturalistic ( talk) 21:16, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
This official-looking tag inserted by Allisgod is unnecessarily discouraging of new contributions.-- Naturalistic ( talk) 19:11, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
The intro section should not be OR nor single out one or two individual usages - it should exemplify the range of typical uses.
The previous version started unsuitably with an idiosyncratic definition by Quentin Smith, referring to his own philosophy. I have retained Smith while emphasizing how he defined naturalistic pantheism.
Tillich uses the term Naturalistic Pantheism (focusing on finite beings) in contrast to idealistic pantheism (focusing on the essence of being) - that is very clear from the page cited: "Spinoza establishes a Naturalistic Pantheism, in contrast to the idealistic type which identifies God with the universal essence of being, which denies finite freedom." Grammatically it is idealistic pantheism which Tillich appears to be calling deterministic, but in any case determinism is not the reason he uses the word naturalistic, it's the contrast with idealistic that dictates the choice.--
Naturalistic (
talk) 20:24, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
Thankyou for placing these side by side so visitors can compare them. Mine covers the broad range of uses. Yours starts with one idiosyncratic quote, and brings in determinism (again) and Spinoza (again) your two favorites.
1. Spinoza is there, in the text. I don't pretend he is no big deal, I just don't think his name needs to be dropped absolutely everywhere along with statements that he is the big kahuna. There have been many outstanding naturalistic pantheists starting with the Stoics.
2. You have seriously misread the Tillich reference, which does not say what you say it says.
3. Tillich still there in the intro as a reference.
4. Tillich is mentioned in only 4% of 1800 books in a Naturalistic Pantheism search - how does that make him the most important secondary source? He's a panentheist - how can his extremely brief critical mention of Naturalistic Pantheism be taken as part of its introductory section? The reason you highlight it is because he mentions determinism which you have been trying to push and prioritize in all three articles about Pantheism.
5. The World Pantheist Movement is currently only one short mention. I have cut it back 95% or more from what was there - and I did not place that long section there in the first place. You instead wish every mention of it to be expunged, even though it's the biggest pantheist organization in the world and the fact that it promotes Naturalistic Pantheism is highly relevant to this article.
--
Naturalistic (
talk) 22:17, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
References
I am personally sick of the constant reversions, sick of arguing, sick of responding to the personal insults, but I don't really have any option but to continue, if I am concerned with the accuracy and neutrality of this article. Anyone reading
Talk:Pantheism starting at the end will see that I have repeatedly tried to reach compromises, and have been rebuffed every time. I have accepted many of Allisgod's changes and shortened many of my own additions.
I am concerned about Allisgod's pushing and prioritizing of determinism and Spinoza all the time and everywhere. It's all over Pantheism and Classical Pantheism, now he wants it all over Naturalistic Pantheism also. True, he uses sources now, but he does not present them correctly, and he selects them solely to back up his own ideology. Since he has been doing this for three months now I am not at all confident it will stop. But I am willing to try discussing changes here first.--
Naturalistic (
talk) 22:44, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
In my opinion the article as of 21:09 Aug 31 http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Naturalistic_pantheism&oldid=510175426 is in good shape now, short, accurate and well-sourced. The intro is representative of a wider range of uses, and not biassed. The history section mentions a good selection of important examples which have been called Naturalistic Pantheism. The sources all mention Naturalistic Pantheism and I have removed references to my own work.-- Naturalistic ( talk) 22:44, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
Regarding the relevance of determinism in this article, out of 1812 Google Book results for Naturalistic Pantheism, only 62 mention determinism and less than half of those 62 have the words in any near proximity.-- Naturalistic ( talk) 22:53, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
All aspects of article content over which there is disagreement should be listed here. The filing party should define the scope under "Primary issues", which is used to frame the case; other parties to the dispute can list other issues under "Additional issues", and can contest the primary issues on case talk page.
Some more thoughts: The question is how much weight to assign to the various definitions of "naturalistic pantheism" within the articles Naturalistic pantheism and pantheism. The term is not a widely used term (compared to, say, plain "pantheism") but where it is used, each authority tends to assign to it a unique meaning. There are some older uses of the term dating back to early 20th century (and perhaps late 19th century); and in the late 20th century, there emerged some modern pantheism movement(s) that adopted the term, and turned it to their own belief systems. The question is how much emphasis to place in the article to the various meanings of the term. The dispute has a bit of a conflict-of-interest aspect to it because one of the editors, user Naturalistic, who has stated he is Paul Harrison (pantheist), is a leader of a modern pantheism movement, World Pantheist Movement, and has published a book on the subject - Elements of Pantheism. I have not detected any significant violations of WP policy by Naturalistic ... at worst, he is a bit enthusiastic about emphasizing his own movement's view of pantheism. But he is well-informed and well-intentioned. User Allisgod is also a helpful editor, and (I believe) has the view that the older/historical definitions of "naturalistic pantheism" should carry more weight than modern meanings. It should be a simple matter to enumerate the various sources that have used the term, to group them into a handful of major groupings/definitions, and then decide how much weight each should get. -- Noleander ( talk) 21:44, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
I believe there is a big underlying problem here when it comes to attempting to mediate between users. The problem is user:naturalistic simply has too big of a conflict of interest. His promotion agenda leaves him mostly incapable of sincere editing of these pages (and even sincere discussion about the editing). If there were more active editors on these pages (especially scholars), perhaps he would not be able to keep up with trying to redefine words and carefully promoting his org. But look at the history of these pages and for YEARS he has gotten away with these pages being vehicles of promotion and advertising for his org and his personal ideas. Is mediating with this really what I should be going for? What can be done about conflict of interest? ( Allisgod ( talk) 03:36, 3 September 2012 (UTC))
What's egregious is that in the Pantheism article you recently:
All the above manouevres are blatant and flagrant examples of your stated bias against Naturalistic Pantheism and the World Pantheist Movement.
"Overwhelms these pages" means provides objective evidence of the relative importance of different concepts in relation to the phrase "Naturalistic Pantheism." Since you cannot answer the evidence, you resort to ad hominem attacks on me the entire time. I have always edited in a neutral and accurate way, and these days am even more scrupulous about sourcing.
--
Naturalistic (
talk) 22:59, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
This article in its current form does not accurately reflect the various ways in which "naturalistic pantheism" has been used in academic sources. Instead, it mostly reflects a narrow view of this expression from a website (sourced twice). I am going to list every source I have found with the expression "naturalistic pantheism" and invite anyone to help edit the article to better reflect the meaning of this phrase. I will note that the expression is most often associated with Spinoza's philosophy (20 out of 41 sources).
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Naturalistic removed several of the important points claiming that they had nothing to do with naturalistic pantheism. This is not the case. What was written was well researched and eloquent. I am going to do some more research on my own and add to the previous posts. Please do not remove things you do not understand. Several of the additions had very clear mistakes. @Naturalistic please do not let your personal feelings interfere with the quality of information on this page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.87.197.88 ( talk) 06:10, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
Does anybody have a source on the origin of the term "Naturalistic pantheism"? My best research see that it starts to appear in the media and on blogs around 2002. This seams very recent so it is possible that it just got rediscovered.
134.93.128.12 ( talk) 10:04, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
I am nominating this article as NPOV. I just found this article randomly as I was surfing wikipedia and I found that it has: 1) Very little factual description of what Naturalistic pantheism actually is 2) No references to any source material 3) A voice (especially the critique section) that looks a lot like a critique written by someone and not a summary of critiques of others. I was also supprised that the critique section was longer than the actual description of the religion.
I would say that this article is biased in both directions, both for and against Natural Pantheism, this is not the same as being NPOV.
I can not fix this as I am not an expert on Naturalistic pantheism and am also not a very good writer but I hope someone can fix this article.
bobprime 16:02 26 July 2006 (EST)
I will try to fix this article so it is accurate, well referenced, non POV and non OR. It should not be merged with naturalistic spirituality, which is more of an umbrella term. -- Naturalistic ( talk) 20:56, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
(cur) (last) . . 16:47, 5 Apr 2004 . . David Gerard (you should try to make it less POV, not more)
What are you disputing as being more POV verses NPOV?-PV
As far as I can see the article isn't particularly NPOV. The only thing I found that I think needs addressing was this sentence:
The WPM (founded by former UPS vice-president Paul Harrison), on the other hand, has expanded more considerably due to its promotion of "scientific pantheism", which many critics claim is essentially no more than "atheism for nature lovers"
Who are these 'many critics' who say this? It sounds like a very specific quotation, but no indication as to who it's come from. I've added a cite tag for anyone who's able to provide this info.
Other than that, I've made some very minor tweaks by capitalising the word 'God' where it's used as a proper noun in reference to a single being (even if that being is the Universe itself) because it's a name or title. Where it's used to describe a type of being ("a god") I've left it lower-case. If I've missed any - sorry.
Personally, bearing in mind the existing article on Pantheism as a whole, I'm quite happy this article as an explanation of a kind of Pantheism is as NPOV as an article on religion is going to get without deleting all the content (I'm joking), so I'll stick my neck out and remove the tag. - Dreilyn 12:15, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Disagreements of previous contributors aside, this is a pretty good article. While it does spend a lot of time on criticism, Wikipedia has lots of articles with detailed criticisms of traditional theism, and other belief systems, as well. These just have been spun-off into their own articles. RK
There seems to be some misunderstanding of Spinoza in this article (possibly among the subjects of the article). I've just posted this to Talk:Pantheism (in response to an editing disagreementthere), and my attention was drqawn to this article:
Now, this was fairly hurried and allusive, but much more evidence could be brought against the claim that "the universe, although unconscious and non-sentient as a whole", though I'd agree that Spinoza believed that it "is a meaningful focus for human spirituality. Accordingly, Nature is seen as being "God" only in a non-traditional, impersonal sense." Any thoughts? -- Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 22:39, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
Is the key question for this article to describe what Spinoza believed, or what Naturalistic Pantheists believe (with reference to Spinoza as an influence or inspiration)? If Spinoza's beliefs and those of Naturalistic Pantheists in general differ, which should we be describing in detail in an article on Naturalistic Pantheism? - Dreilyn 12:18, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
I changed the first sentence to describe Naturalistic Pantheism as the belief that the universe is a meaningful focus for mystical fulfillment rather than spirituality. I realize both terms are not quite appropriate since they were invented in relation to religions that believe in (anthropomorphic) deities, but at least mysticism doesn't necessitate belief in spirits or other dualistic nonsense.
The first paragraph of "Criticism and response" seems like original research (if I've got that term right). At any rate, it's not sourced. I'm not sure if this is a problem, given that it's stating some people's opinions, but someone should take a look at it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.237.210.81 ( talk) 02:52, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
This article used to be acceptable about 5 years ago. Since then it has been totally corrupted with inaccurate, unsourced OR and POV material, primarily by critics of this version of pantheism. In its state prior to Feb 2 it was highly misleading. I am undertaking a complete rewrite making this article a worthwhile source, accurate, adequately referenced, and neutral (ie simply describing what it is). -- Naturalistic ( talk) 22:37, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
Jon Harder: IMHO this is tidying up taken beyond beyond anything I can find in the suggested Wikipedia rules and policies. People may well want to go straight from Naturalistic Pantheism to the main organization for this form of pantheism. Or, they may want to go to the Wikipedia article about the organization. With only the Wikipedia link, they only have one option. Why should they not be offered both options? Leaving both in gives users greater freedom and more information.-- Naturalistic ( talk) 00:42, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
What is being described in this article is not natural pantheism. People need to stop making up new terms and start checking if a term already exists. In this case, natural pantheism is pandeism and nothing but that. In addition to that, you should know that the "theism" in pantheism implies the existence of an active God while scientists like Einstein rejected this idea. Therefore Einstein was a pandeist. -- Trickymaster ( talk) 02:54, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
Trickymaster, you need to do quite a bit more checking yourself. First off, this article is called NATURALISTIC Pantheism, not "Natural Pantheism," and Naturalistic is absolutely the right term for a viewpoint that "Nature is all there is." Second, pandeism is the belief that some being called God created the Universe out of himself and became the Universe. This is not at all the same as Naturalistic Pantheism. Third, you need to research Pantheism, which does not at all imply an active God but identiifies the Universe as "God" or the highest object of reverence. -- Naturalistic ( talk) 16:19, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
How I understood it, Pandeism refers to the case where God created the Universe but "ceased to exist" thereafter, whereas naturalistic pantheism is where God is the fundamental properties of the universe itself (ie it's not creationist. Instead, God is the body that governs reality, but not in an interventionist sense) Techno Tron15 ( talk) 00:24, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
As for the term 'naturalistic', I think it is fitting. This is because that in a philosophical sense, naturalism refers to the idea where there is no interventionist entity governing the universe (ie no conscious being has active power to control what was going to happen without intervention). But in this form of pantheism, this description is met, for the whole point is that God is not able to intervene in what was going to happen in the universe's affairs, for God is the universe itself Techno Tron15 ( talk) 00:28, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
In its current state, this page should be merged with the World Pantheist Movement page. I have found no credible sources using this term in the way Harrison and his World Pantheist Movement organization use that term. This expression as defined by Harrison's book and organization doesn't seem to have any precedence before this decade defined in the same way. So is this term just a created term by Harrison and does it warrant its own article? Have any philosophers or theologians used this term as it has been defined on this page? ( Allisgod ( talk) 07:45, 21 August 2012 (UTC))
The term has clearly seen scholarly use prior to that - more than Classical Pantheism, which is your relative preference. We can debate exactly what these people meant by it, but if any of these sources demonstrate a different meaning, the correct action would be to add it, rather than removing a page with a long-established usage. The term has certainly become more prominent since the movement's formation, but was not coined by it. (edit: fixed link)-- Martin Berka ( talk) 08:32, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
Martin, every single use of the phrase that I have found has nothing to do with the way the org. uses the phrase. The main use of the phrase in those books have been a way to reference Spinoza's philosophy. Naturalism in philosophy (and Spinoza) does not refer to nature as in trees, it refers to nature as in natural laws. "Naturalistic pantheism" is used by scholars referring to Natural Law Pantheism - i.e. cause and effect pantheism and even deterministic pantheism. In other words, "Naturalistic pantheism" is similar or the same as "Classical pantheism" according to these works you are referencing. Yet, the way it is presented on this page (and the Pantheism page) is the complete opposite of how those references use the phrase.
It's time to be honest about this. WPM started out with the created phrase "Scientific pantheism" which, like others who have coined phrases to describe their own personal version of pantheism, describes what Harrison and Co. believe. Now, you are using a phrase that has been used in the past, but in a completely opposite way, which makes this page misleading in its current state. If I don't challenge this page on this someone else eventually will. ( Allisgod ( talk) 19:14, 25 August 2012 (UTC))
I've done more research on the phrase "naturalistic pantheism" and have found the following:
In other words, the phrase "naturalistic pantheism" is being used incorrectly or in its own unique way by Harrison and his World Pantheist Movement org. One could argue that Harrison has demonstrated a lack of understanding of the word "naturalism" and/or has just completely ignored the word's previous usage, especially by philosopher Tillich, which I find surprising for a person with an academic background. I think a better phrase might have been "Nature Pantheism" (or Environmentalist Pantheism, or Nature Worship Pantheism, or Green Pantheism..) but that's just my personal opinion. In any case, this page as it stands now has absolutely no relevance other than its association with Harrison and the World Pantheist Movement and should be deleted/merged. ( Allisgod ( talk) 06:32, 27 August 2012 (UTC))
I don't think they use any of those Nature names - it's always Naturalistic, or Scientific, or World Pantheism (mostly branding, that last one). Myself, I find "Nature Worship" a bit insulting. While I can't be sure, it looks like they consider "naturalistic" to mean "physical, monist," and thus fully describable with science. The Naturalism article says it's about the "laws of nature" (not supernatural), and we would have to decide how different that is from "natural laws" (I wonder if you and Naturalistic have not exaggerated your differences). You have reasonably shown different meanings of a phrase used by different groups, but the earlier statistics suggest it is still relatively prominent for Pantheism. I would then suggest bringing those other meanings into this article, instead of deleting it (which would make WPM the lead source for defining "naturalistic pantheism", at the wiki's loss). It would become more diverse and better-sourced, like Classical Pantheism with its multiple meanings. -- Martin Berka ( talk) 20:58, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
"At a minimum"? ;) More seriously, I would say the WPM is the leading user and promoter of this phrase. They should not be the sole source, but ignoring them completely would make the article less useful. We can cut out anything resembling advertising and leave the article with sections for each concept, but I consider organizations very relevant to whatever ideas they promote. -- Martin Berka ( talk) 10:20, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
I have added a definition section, made the history section so it's about history, and greatly reduced the focus on World Pantheist Movement. I did not create that focus, and I thought it was inappropriate.
I have removed most of the references to environment, which I agree is not part of any proper definition of Naturalistic Pantheism. FYI I did not insert that material and I don't know who did.
I have removed the references to the WPM to matters not strictly related to naturalism (eg about loving nature etc). I am not sure what to do about the material related to natural rights, which relate to one meaning of the term naturalism, in ethics.
I have also removed the "Characteristics" section which repeated material about the WPM - here too, I did not insert this material, nor was I at all happy with the focus on the World Pantheist Movement here.
I will continue to work on improving this article including a look at some of the other uses, gleaned from the 1780 book results and 119 Google Scholar results.--
Naturalistic (
talk) 01:39, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
I am working my way through the Google Books results, in the order they show up. Out of 13 so far, I have not encountered a single one that did not coincide with the characterization in my original intro. Including Tillich himself! Tillich contrast Naturalistic Pantheism ("by necessity God is merged into the finite beings, and his being is their being") with Idealistic Pantheism "which identifies God with the universal essence of being." It is this contrast that makes it naturalistic - not the determinism part.-- Naturalistic ( talk) 01:13, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
User "naturalistic" should refrain from editing this page and especially from adding references about his group. The organization, "World Pantheist Movement" under direction by the aforementioned user began using the phrase "naturalistic pantheism" to describe their beliefs (replacing their unique coined phrase Scientific Pantheism). However, those beliefs have little to do with the historical meaning of the phrase "naturalistic pantheism" which has often been used to describe Spinoza's philosophy. ( Allisgod ( talk) 19:38, 30 August 2012 (UTC))
Personal insults like the above are factually worthless and merely add more examples of your bias against me. Hmm, I wonder how I managed to put together the web's largest site on the history of pantheism, which is the number one Google search result, which is packed with direct quotations and all very well sourced and no way focuses just on my own preferred form of pantheism?
You by contrast seem fixated on determinism, block time and Hartshorne and a determination to "own" all the Pantheism-related articles. I made some very reasonable attempts to accommodate those of your edits that were compatible with accuracy and neutrality. You are now deleting every single thing I write regardless of accuracy, sourcing or accuracy.
You have no idea what the majority of scholarly views says. Here are some examples of your "scholarship":
Here you go again. The above comment demonstrates very clearly that your goal is to make Naturalistic Pantheism mean exactly the same as your favorite, Classical Pantheism and is more evidence of your bias in editing. You are the person doing conflict of interest editing and almost everything you say and do demonstrates that.
By contrast my additions mention genuinely Naturalistic Pantheist thinkers. I can easily assemble as many or more examples as you did - and in any case yours failed totally to prove your point. I added quite a few sources to the article, but you deleted them.
The goal of my website was not to satisfy any ambition to be regarded as a world expert, but to provide information about the history of pantheism - it's the number of other sites that find my site useful, plus Google measures of relevance etc, that gain me the top result for history of pantheism. How exactly do you explain that?
My editing is always focussed on neutrality and accuracy. PS I also have a summa cum laude Cambridge degree in European languages and literature so I can and do read many works in the original. My qualifications are better than those of Picton (a preacher and politician) or Worman (an author of language learning books)
.
We have no idea what your background or qualifications are since you refuse to disclose them.
However, you are missing the point. Anyone off the street with zero knowledge or research background can edit Wikipedia, and that's okay as long as what they add is accurate, neutral, relevant not OR etc.--
Naturalistic (
talk) 23:32, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
I am working my way through the Google Books results on Naturalistic Pantheism. 13 so far. I have images of all the relevant sections. Not one of them is in conflict with my original intro - not even Tillich. You are simply misinterpreting what you read. Sources are useful, but only if you understand what they mean and represent what they mean accurately, which you frequently do not. You see everything through deterministic spectacles.-- Naturalistic ( talk) 01:16, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
You are completely ignoring the matter of interpretation of sources. You are interpreting what you see in a specific way and to me it seems that you are not even carefully reading what you see. Tillich contrasts Naturalistic Pantheism (God merged into finite beings, his being = their being) with idealistic pantheism (God=universal essence of being). [Paul Tillich: Theologian of the Boundaries. By Paul Tillich, Mark K. Taylor, Mark Lewis Taylor p165]. Both of these may be deterministic. And that's just Tillich and I presume the 4% of Naturalistic Pantheism occurrences that mention him.
"And if you had any idea what pantheism really meant you wouldn't be calling yourself a "world expert". That's a highly presumptuous statement. So you know what Pantheism means, based on your obsession with Hartshorne, Spinoza and determinism? That's just your preferred viewpoint. All the major dictionaries agree on two points about Pantheism. 1. God = Universe/Nature/Existent things 2. There is some kind of unity of all things. Very few of the reference books mention determinism as being an essential characteristic of pantheism. I do not pretend to espouse all types of Pantheism, nor do I claim that my type is the only type, nor do I go interfering with Classical Pantheism trying to make it look like Naturalistic Pantheism. Pantheism is a complex subject - William Reese lists seven types in his Encyclopedia Britannica article. However, you have given every sign of believing that only your version is the "true pantheism" and you have been editing in that spirit. That's a dangerous attitude for a Wikipedia editor.
By the way, if it's not about you v me, kindly stick to the facts and stop taking every opportunity to try to discredit me personally. We would also be on fairer ground if you informed people who you are. For all anyone knows, you may have an interest as significant as mine and you appear to let your personal viewpoint affect your editing far more than I do.--
Naturalistic (
talk) 02:21, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
--
Naturalistic (
talk) 02:17, 31 August 2012 (UTC) Normal 0 false false false
Are you guys going to keep this farce, this orgy of reverts, going forever more? Time you put the weapons and insults away and agreed to collaborate like grown ups. Peter morrell 06:38, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
This is not a farce Peter, there is meaning to the changes and the conflict is of great importance in maintaining the accuracy and neutrality of Wikipedia's Pantheism articles. Allisgod tried to get the Naturalistic Pantheism article completely deleted (see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Log/2012_August_27#Naturalistic_pantheism). Having failed in that, he is now aiming to transform Naturalistic Pantheism into a version of his favorite
Classical Pantheism. He is really on a crusade to do this.
He confuses inserting sources carefully selected to endorse his viewpoint with accuracy and neutrality. Look at his latest version of the intro which once again introduces determinism and theistic/panentheistic authors. I have tried to compromise on many occasions but Allisgod is determined to impose his determinism-focused version of Pantheism on every article related to this subject. He has been hurling insults at me the whole time and removing references to the largest Pantheist organization in the world, which expressly espouses Naturalistic Pantheism. His insults against me are part of the campaign. I know the phrase "He started it" is something from school playgrounds - nevertheless it is true in this case, and I don't respond in kind. My comments on his behavior relate specifically to the issue in hand.--
Naturalistic (
talk) 13:46, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
Out of the four references here: One is completely independent (re Toland) One is the top entry in Google searches for Haeckel pantheism. One is by the vice president of Tor House - a Robinson Jeffers focused foundation One is from the World Pantheist Movement website - which is a reliable source for what its own beliefs are. They are all informative and short, descriptive and accurate, there's nothing being promoted here.-- Naturalistic ( talk) 01:28, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
All the sources in the current history section are books that use the term naturalistic pantheism of the individuals concerned.-- Naturalistic ( talk) 21:16, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
This official-looking tag inserted by Allisgod is unnecessarily discouraging of new contributions.-- Naturalistic ( talk) 19:11, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
The intro section should not be OR nor single out one or two individual usages - it should exemplify the range of typical uses.
The previous version started unsuitably with an idiosyncratic definition by Quentin Smith, referring to his own philosophy. I have retained Smith while emphasizing how he defined naturalistic pantheism.
Tillich uses the term Naturalistic Pantheism (focusing on finite beings) in contrast to idealistic pantheism (focusing on the essence of being) - that is very clear from the page cited: "Spinoza establishes a Naturalistic Pantheism, in contrast to the idealistic type which identifies God with the universal essence of being, which denies finite freedom." Grammatically it is idealistic pantheism which Tillich appears to be calling deterministic, but in any case determinism is not the reason he uses the word naturalistic, it's the contrast with idealistic that dictates the choice.--
Naturalistic (
talk) 20:24, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
Thankyou for placing these side by side so visitors can compare them. Mine covers the broad range of uses. Yours starts with one idiosyncratic quote, and brings in determinism (again) and Spinoza (again) your two favorites.
1. Spinoza is there, in the text. I don't pretend he is no big deal, I just don't think his name needs to be dropped absolutely everywhere along with statements that he is the big kahuna. There have been many outstanding naturalistic pantheists starting with the Stoics.
2. You have seriously misread the Tillich reference, which does not say what you say it says.
3. Tillich still there in the intro as a reference.
4. Tillich is mentioned in only 4% of 1800 books in a Naturalistic Pantheism search - how does that make him the most important secondary source? He's a panentheist - how can his extremely brief critical mention of Naturalistic Pantheism be taken as part of its introductory section? The reason you highlight it is because he mentions determinism which you have been trying to push and prioritize in all three articles about Pantheism.
5. The World Pantheist Movement is currently only one short mention. I have cut it back 95% or more from what was there - and I did not place that long section there in the first place. You instead wish every mention of it to be expunged, even though it's the biggest pantheist organization in the world and the fact that it promotes Naturalistic Pantheism is highly relevant to this article.
--
Naturalistic (
talk) 22:17, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
References
I am personally sick of the constant reversions, sick of arguing, sick of responding to the personal insults, but I don't really have any option but to continue, if I am concerned with the accuracy and neutrality of this article. Anyone reading
Talk:Pantheism starting at the end will see that I have repeatedly tried to reach compromises, and have been rebuffed every time. I have accepted many of Allisgod's changes and shortened many of my own additions.
I am concerned about Allisgod's pushing and prioritizing of determinism and Spinoza all the time and everywhere. It's all over Pantheism and Classical Pantheism, now he wants it all over Naturalistic Pantheism also. True, he uses sources now, but he does not present them correctly, and he selects them solely to back up his own ideology. Since he has been doing this for three months now I am not at all confident it will stop. But I am willing to try discussing changes here first.--
Naturalistic (
talk) 22:44, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
In my opinion the article as of 21:09 Aug 31 http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Naturalistic_pantheism&oldid=510175426 is in good shape now, short, accurate and well-sourced. The intro is representative of a wider range of uses, and not biassed. The history section mentions a good selection of important examples which have been called Naturalistic Pantheism. The sources all mention Naturalistic Pantheism and I have removed references to my own work.-- Naturalistic ( talk) 22:44, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
Regarding the relevance of determinism in this article, out of 1812 Google Book results for Naturalistic Pantheism, only 62 mention determinism and less than half of those 62 have the words in any near proximity.-- Naturalistic ( talk) 22:53, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
All aspects of article content over which there is disagreement should be listed here. The filing party should define the scope under "Primary issues", which is used to frame the case; other parties to the dispute can list other issues under "Additional issues", and can contest the primary issues on case talk page.
Some more thoughts: The question is how much weight to assign to the various definitions of "naturalistic pantheism" within the articles Naturalistic pantheism and pantheism. The term is not a widely used term (compared to, say, plain "pantheism") but where it is used, each authority tends to assign to it a unique meaning. There are some older uses of the term dating back to early 20th century (and perhaps late 19th century); and in the late 20th century, there emerged some modern pantheism movement(s) that adopted the term, and turned it to their own belief systems. The question is how much emphasis to place in the article to the various meanings of the term. The dispute has a bit of a conflict-of-interest aspect to it because one of the editors, user Naturalistic, who has stated he is Paul Harrison (pantheist), is a leader of a modern pantheism movement, World Pantheist Movement, and has published a book on the subject - Elements of Pantheism. I have not detected any significant violations of WP policy by Naturalistic ... at worst, he is a bit enthusiastic about emphasizing his own movement's view of pantheism. But he is well-informed and well-intentioned. User Allisgod is also a helpful editor, and (I believe) has the view that the older/historical definitions of "naturalistic pantheism" should carry more weight than modern meanings. It should be a simple matter to enumerate the various sources that have used the term, to group them into a handful of major groupings/definitions, and then decide how much weight each should get. -- Noleander ( talk) 21:44, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
I believe there is a big underlying problem here when it comes to attempting to mediate between users. The problem is user:naturalistic simply has too big of a conflict of interest. His promotion agenda leaves him mostly incapable of sincere editing of these pages (and even sincere discussion about the editing). If there were more active editors on these pages (especially scholars), perhaps he would not be able to keep up with trying to redefine words and carefully promoting his org. But look at the history of these pages and for YEARS he has gotten away with these pages being vehicles of promotion and advertising for his org and his personal ideas. Is mediating with this really what I should be going for? What can be done about conflict of interest? ( Allisgod ( talk) 03:36, 3 September 2012 (UTC))
What's egregious is that in the Pantheism article you recently:
All the above manouevres are blatant and flagrant examples of your stated bias against Naturalistic Pantheism and the World Pantheist Movement.
"Overwhelms these pages" means provides objective evidence of the relative importance of different concepts in relation to the phrase "Naturalistic Pantheism." Since you cannot answer the evidence, you resort to ad hominem attacks on me the entire time. I have always edited in a neutral and accurate way, and these days am even more scrupulous about sourcing.
--
Naturalistic (
talk) 22:59, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
This article in its current form does not accurately reflect the various ways in which "naturalistic pantheism" has been used in academic sources. Instead, it mostly reflects a narrow view of this expression from a website (sourced twice). I am going to list every source I have found with the expression "naturalistic pantheism" and invite anyone to help edit the article to better reflect the meaning of this phrase. I will note that the expression is most often associated with Spinoza's philosophy (20 out of 41 sources).
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