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The following discussion is copied from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America here, so that further discussion can take place away from the general project page. Smmurphy( Talk) 05:31, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
After a recent ado at Cherokee, I decided to pull my notes together (and add more) to make an article on Cherokee identity. I wasn't happy with the article, however, and expanded the scope, which I've collected as some notes at User:Smmurphy/American Indian identity. I'd like it if anyone has any comments on the project. Right now the article is long (but not longer than many other articles), and I'm not sure if many sections can be spun off, although much could be cut, and much of it probably already exists elsewhere (such as in blood quantum). Also, articles like this usually are tough to title (see Who is black, Who is a Jew?), does anyone have an idea or preference about the title? Thanks, Smmurphy( Talk) 05:58, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
(de-indent for readability)I'd only be capable of a stub, and the reason I'd write it was to begin to show an attempt at CSB. With that in mind, however, the larger scope makes sense, at least for now. Smmurphy( Talk) 15:54, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a battleground for making a case for Federal recognition. This article also contains a large amount of original research and sources I cannot verify. I have tagged it and after careful review, may either try to remove the original research and correct it or AFD it for deletion. Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 07:14, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
It seems that there is (in the stub-version) some confusion between the terms "Native American identity" and "Indian". The article starts with the statement "Native American identity in the United States is legal term defining who is or is not considered American Indian by the United States..." and then goes on to legally define "(1) the term `Indian' means a member of an Indian tribe;". I don't think that the original article was in any way meant to imply that the definition of Indian (or even American Indian) was anything different than the legal definition. The article was simply discussing different groups and different historical circumstances that individuals or groups related to the Native American identity, in spite of whether or not they were legally defined as such. -- Maelwys 19:36, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
A good analytical history of the practice of "self-identifying" as Indian in the US is Phil Deloria's "Playing Indian," viewable on Google here: [1]. Basically, it traces this practice to the revolutionaries at the Boston Tea Party, some of whom disguised themselves as Mohawks in carrying out the founding act of the Revolutionary War. To colonial eyes, "Indians" were symbols of authentic "Americanness," something colonials themselves could never be, and so they dressed themselves up as Indians in order to symbolically assert "native sovereignty" against Britain. Of course, as we all know, Indians themselves were hunted down like dogs, while faux Indian practices were secretly celebrated at Moose and Elks lodges, and "Indians as symbols" became popular as identifiers for sports teams, malt liquor, military aircraft, etc. Amerique dialectics 22:18, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
So these two things are a sort of "American identity through 'Indianness,'" right? I think it would be good to put that into the section on construction by others, which right now is a very weak section. For instance, the image is of a school, but no mention is given to how schools sought to change peoples self-identity.
On the other hand, the "Historic struggles" section could use a rewrite. The section is much shorter than the concept, and the exact topic of the section is a bit ill defined, as the events recounted are (in order): "idea that aboriginal culture has massively changed since man first came to North America," "lack of struggle to get recognized by (some) aboriginal societies," "struggles to get their group recognized by the dominant society," "struggles of people to get themselves recognized by the dominant society," and "historic anecdote about 'houses of entertainment' to draw parallel with casinos today as a part of the identity question." To me, all of these are relevant, but they might each be better in subsections, and it be made clear that the events are just that, individual events, and do not represent the entirety of the situation at the time or for any group (i.e. the sentece, "The question of 'Indianness' was less important in colonial times" needs to be fixed).
If you feel like trying to fix up either of these, go right ahead, of course. Right now much of this article is written by one person, but I put it live because at a certain point I'm no longer able to improve the article very much myself, and distributed authorship becomes a good alternative (plus, authors need oversight). Best, Smmurphy( Talk) 16:32, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Article states that "10 states in the East" have these - but neither lists which states or provides any source. Perhaps the 10 could just be listed in a footnote. Rmhermen 02:56, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm not terribly excited about moving forward on the discussion of state recognized tribes. On one hand, this seems to be a pretty heady list of tribes, and along with the accessgeneaology.com and Sheffield's list make up a good start for a list. Google Scholar gives plenty of papers, but this one seems particularly good, although I'm not sure if it is published yet, this says its forthcoming in the Santa Clara Law Review. Anyway, to me, the advantage of putting together a good page on Native American recognition in the United States is (beyond because it is an interesting, notable topic) it allows us to make this page more specifically about identity as a social concept, by pushing some of the more legal-ish stuff over there (does this sound like a good idea?). The disadvantage is, well, I don't know how to put it, but I don't enjoy being treated like a "negative" member of the community because of Jeffrey's and my differing perspectives on how controversial issues should be discussed here. Anyway, I'm wondering if anyone has anything compelling to say about the issue (I'm fairly likely to be bold and create the article anyway), and I'd like to let everyone know who might like to help out. Best, Smmurphy( Talk) 03:35, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Some of the Historic struggles section could stay here, but much of it probably belongs in the recognition article, right? The same is true with the "examples." Perhaps the entirety of the examples could go, and we could use the quotes in the self-identity section as "personal examples," and try to get some more material from the perspective of full members. What do you think? Best, Smmurphy( Talk) 14:48, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Hi, these references you are citing cannot be verified. please point me to an online version. I cannot find these books and they have undue weight. 67.186.225.240 22:53, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
This article is out in the weeds with its claims "there are multiple legal definitions". The way legal precedence works, whatever is the last definition of congress is the controlling one. At present, this would be AIRFA. The way the article is worded is inaccurate in this area and is POV pushing. The article also needs to mention that claiming to be an Indian when someone is not a member of a Federally recognized tribe is a Felony in the United States. I realize its a much debated and interesting topic, but Wikipedia needs to place a disclaimer since perpetuating this false belief people can do this and get away with it may wind the misinformed in lots of trouble. Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 15:32, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Commerce clause (200 years before AIRFA)? So are you referring to impersonating an Indian in order to have treaty rights with the US? Yes, there are many ways in which impersonating an Indian is illegal. There are also cases where it is legal. We were talking about AIRFA, which is related to your peyote case. I mentioned the Arts and Crafts Act, which is a evidence that different definitions of Indian are used in legislation, even legislation more recent than AIRFA, then "impersonating" was brought up, which is related to the earlier discussion, about the book "Playing Indian" and the idea of "Native American representation" and how impersonating Indian has had different meanings - including satirical, educational, exploitative, nationalistic, etc - and is not in some cases illegal. I don't think that the Commerce clause itself is a necessary part of the discussion. When we discuss Indians as relevant to the Commerce Clause we are usually talking about Indians as groups organized into tribes (nations, clans, etc.), which then enter into treaty relationships with the US government (although not always). Not every legislative definition uses tribes as the only fundamental marker of "Indianness," however, and not every personal definition, or definition used by anthropologists, sociologists, legal scholars, political scientists, major Indian leaders, et al uses tribes as fundamental to "Indianness," which is the main topic of this article. Consider Wilma Mankiller who said, "An Indian is an Indian regardless of the degree of Indian blood or which little government card they do or do not possess." Best, Smmurphy( Talk) 16:54, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
It regulates commerce with nations, foreign states, and Indian tribes. That is why the line you quoted was about fraudulent impersonation. And the congresses power, as used in the Arts and Crafts Act (in 1991) has defined Indian more broadly than just membership in a federally recognized tribe (as have many federally recognized tribes). I think the article is clear on that. You do not need to post your legal brief here, you can link it or userfy it if you wish, but this discussion is already overlong. Best, Smmurphy( Talk) 17:14, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
(restore indent, apologies in advance for off-color remark) Hmm, someone should alert the Cleveland Indians of this interpertation of federal law, ha! I wonder if they could qualify for BIA recognition. Seriously though, it sounds to me that Merkey's line of reasoning hasn't been tried before in the mascot context. I can see it potentially being effective in the lawsuits against professional sports teams. Amerique dialectics 01:09, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
I am placing a warning tag in these wannabee articles to notify the public these materials should not be considered legal advice or authoritative. The public should be advised as well as casual readers claiming to be an Indian when they are not can get them into a lot of trouble. Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 15:38, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
I came to Wikipedia to look for some guidance in finding information regarding what "defines" a person as Native American, after I had to complete a State of Texas form that has a different (much narrower) definition that the one used by the US Census. By the US Census someone like I is (also) Native American, albeit mixed. By the State of Texas such a person would be "Hispanic".
Now, looking at this article and others regarding Native Americans, I see that very, very little is said about these administrative issues and their impact. Yet these are important for many Federal, State, local, private programs in College, Small Business... While Wikipedia is not meant to be authoritative about regulatory matters, I wish at least it were informative. 72.183.114.253 ( talk) 15:28, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
Hi. There are several articles about tribal issues, which contain WP:COI content from a published author and Wikipedian named Markedwinmiller, synthesizing and citing his own books. I don't know anything about the content, and I imagine that it may be fine, but an uninvolved party needs to ascertain that by acquiring the book and reviewing it against the Wikipedian contributions for neutrality and accuracy. Then you can reintroduce the content, hopefully properly formatted and cited. Until then, it's here for this article and in the user's history for the other articles. I have notified the editor, requesting that he'll propose future changes on the Talk pages of the articles. Thank you. — Smuckola (Email) (Talk) 10:49, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
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The following discussion is copied from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America here, so that further discussion can take place away from the general project page. Smmurphy( Talk) 05:31, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
After a recent ado at Cherokee, I decided to pull my notes together (and add more) to make an article on Cherokee identity. I wasn't happy with the article, however, and expanded the scope, which I've collected as some notes at User:Smmurphy/American Indian identity. I'd like it if anyone has any comments on the project. Right now the article is long (but not longer than many other articles), and I'm not sure if many sections can be spun off, although much could be cut, and much of it probably already exists elsewhere (such as in blood quantum). Also, articles like this usually are tough to title (see Who is black, Who is a Jew?), does anyone have an idea or preference about the title? Thanks, Smmurphy( Talk) 05:58, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
(de-indent for readability)I'd only be capable of a stub, and the reason I'd write it was to begin to show an attempt at CSB. With that in mind, however, the larger scope makes sense, at least for now. Smmurphy( Talk) 15:54, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a battleground for making a case for Federal recognition. This article also contains a large amount of original research and sources I cannot verify. I have tagged it and after careful review, may either try to remove the original research and correct it or AFD it for deletion. Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 07:14, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
It seems that there is (in the stub-version) some confusion between the terms "Native American identity" and "Indian". The article starts with the statement "Native American identity in the United States is legal term defining who is or is not considered American Indian by the United States..." and then goes on to legally define "(1) the term `Indian' means a member of an Indian tribe;". I don't think that the original article was in any way meant to imply that the definition of Indian (or even American Indian) was anything different than the legal definition. The article was simply discussing different groups and different historical circumstances that individuals or groups related to the Native American identity, in spite of whether or not they were legally defined as such. -- Maelwys 19:36, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
A good analytical history of the practice of "self-identifying" as Indian in the US is Phil Deloria's "Playing Indian," viewable on Google here: [1]. Basically, it traces this practice to the revolutionaries at the Boston Tea Party, some of whom disguised themselves as Mohawks in carrying out the founding act of the Revolutionary War. To colonial eyes, "Indians" were symbols of authentic "Americanness," something colonials themselves could never be, and so they dressed themselves up as Indians in order to symbolically assert "native sovereignty" against Britain. Of course, as we all know, Indians themselves were hunted down like dogs, while faux Indian practices were secretly celebrated at Moose and Elks lodges, and "Indians as symbols" became popular as identifiers for sports teams, malt liquor, military aircraft, etc. Amerique dialectics 22:18, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
So these two things are a sort of "American identity through 'Indianness,'" right? I think it would be good to put that into the section on construction by others, which right now is a very weak section. For instance, the image is of a school, but no mention is given to how schools sought to change peoples self-identity.
On the other hand, the "Historic struggles" section could use a rewrite. The section is much shorter than the concept, and the exact topic of the section is a bit ill defined, as the events recounted are (in order): "idea that aboriginal culture has massively changed since man first came to North America," "lack of struggle to get recognized by (some) aboriginal societies," "struggles to get their group recognized by the dominant society," "struggles of people to get themselves recognized by the dominant society," and "historic anecdote about 'houses of entertainment' to draw parallel with casinos today as a part of the identity question." To me, all of these are relevant, but they might each be better in subsections, and it be made clear that the events are just that, individual events, and do not represent the entirety of the situation at the time or for any group (i.e. the sentece, "The question of 'Indianness' was less important in colonial times" needs to be fixed).
If you feel like trying to fix up either of these, go right ahead, of course. Right now much of this article is written by one person, but I put it live because at a certain point I'm no longer able to improve the article very much myself, and distributed authorship becomes a good alternative (plus, authors need oversight). Best, Smmurphy( Talk) 16:32, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Article states that "10 states in the East" have these - but neither lists which states or provides any source. Perhaps the 10 could just be listed in a footnote. Rmhermen 02:56, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm not terribly excited about moving forward on the discussion of state recognized tribes. On one hand, this seems to be a pretty heady list of tribes, and along with the accessgeneaology.com and Sheffield's list make up a good start for a list. Google Scholar gives plenty of papers, but this one seems particularly good, although I'm not sure if it is published yet, this says its forthcoming in the Santa Clara Law Review. Anyway, to me, the advantage of putting together a good page on Native American recognition in the United States is (beyond because it is an interesting, notable topic) it allows us to make this page more specifically about identity as a social concept, by pushing some of the more legal-ish stuff over there (does this sound like a good idea?). The disadvantage is, well, I don't know how to put it, but I don't enjoy being treated like a "negative" member of the community because of Jeffrey's and my differing perspectives on how controversial issues should be discussed here. Anyway, I'm wondering if anyone has anything compelling to say about the issue (I'm fairly likely to be bold and create the article anyway), and I'd like to let everyone know who might like to help out. Best, Smmurphy( Talk) 03:35, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Some of the Historic struggles section could stay here, but much of it probably belongs in the recognition article, right? The same is true with the "examples." Perhaps the entirety of the examples could go, and we could use the quotes in the self-identity section as "personal examples," and try to get some more material from the perspective of full members. What do you think? Best, Smmurphy( Talk) 14:48, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Hi, these references you are citing cannot be verified. please point me to an online version. I cannot find these books and they have undue weight. 67.186.225.240 22:53, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
This article is out in the weeds with its claims "there are multiple legal definitions". The way legal precedence works, whatever is the last definition of congress is the controlling one. At present, this would be AIRFA. The way the article is worded is inaccurate in this area and is POV pushing. The article also needs to mention that claiming to be an Indian when someone is not a member of a Federally recognized tribe is a Felony in the United States. I realize its a much debated and interesting topic, but Wikipedia needs to place a disclaimer since perpetuating this false belief people can do this and get away with it may wind the misinformed in lots of trouble. Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 15:32, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Commerce clause (200 years before AIRFA)? So are you referring to impersonating an Indian in order to have treaty rights with the US? Yes, there are many ways in which impersonating an Indian is illegal. There are also cases where it is legal. We were talking about AIRFA, which is related to your peyote case. I mentioned the Arts and Crafts Act, which is a evidence that different definitions of Indian are used in legislation, even legislation more recent than AIRFA, then "impersonating" was brought up, which is related to the earlier discussion, about the book "Playing Indian" and the idea of "Native American representation" and how impersonating Indian has had different meanings - including satirical, educational, exploitative, nationalistic, etc - and is not in some cases illegal. I don't think that the Commerce clause itself is a necessary part of the discussion. When we discuss Indians as relevant to the Commerce Clause we are usually talking about Indians as groups organized into tribes (nations, clans, etc.), which then enter into treaty relationships with the US government (although not always). Not every legislative definition uses tribes as the only fundamental marker of "Indianness," however, and not every personal definition, or definition used by anthropologists, sociologists, legal scholars, political scientists, major Indian leaders, et al uses tribes as fundamental to "Indianness," which is the main topic of this article. Consider Wilma Mankiller who said, "An Indian is an Indian regardless of the degree of Indian blood or which little government card they do or do not possess." Best, Smmurphy( Talk) 16:54, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
It regulates commerce with nations, foreign states, and Indian tribes. That is why the line you quoted was about fraudulent impersonation. And the congresses power, as used in the Arts and Crafts Act (in 1991) has defined Indian more broadly than just membership in a federally recognized tribe (as have many federally recognized tribes). I think the article is clear on that. You do not need to post your legal brief here, you can link it or userfy it if you wish, but this discussion is already overlong. Best, Smmurphy( Talk) 17:14, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
(restore indent, apologies in advance for off-color remark) Hmm, someone should alert the Cleveland Indians of this interpertation of federal law, ha! I wonder if they could qualify for BIA recognition. Seriously though, it sounds to me that Merkey's line of reasoning hasn't been tried before in the mascot context. I can see it potentially being effective in the lawsuits against professional sports teams. Amerique dialectics 01:09, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
I am placing a warning tag in these wannabee articles to notify the public these materials should not be considered legal advice or authoritative. The public should be advised as well as casual readers claiming to be an Indian when they are not can get them into a lot of trouble. Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 15:38, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
I came to Wikipedia to look for some guidance in finding information regarding what "defines" a person as Native American, after I had to complete a State of Texas form that has a different (much narrower) definition that the one used by the US Census. By the US Census someone like I is (also) Native American, albeit mixed. By the State of Texas such a person would be "Hispanic".
Now, looking at this article and others regarding Native Americans, I see that very, very little is said about these administrative issues and their impact. Yet these are important for many Federal, State, local, private programs in College, Small Business... While Wikipedia is not meant to be authoritative about regulatory matters, I wish at least it were informative. 72.183.114.253 ( talk) 15:28, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
Hi. There are several articles about tribal issues, which contain WP:COI content from a published author and Wikipedian named Markedwinmiller, synthesizing and citing his own books. I don't know anything about the content, and I imagine that it may be fine, but an uninvolved party needs to ascertain that by acquiring the book and reviewing it against the Wikipedian contributions for neutrality and accuracy. Then you can reintroduce the content, hopefully properly formatted and cited. Until then, it's here for this article and in the user's history for the other articles. I have notified the editor, requesting that he'll propose future changes on the Talk pages of the articles. Thank you. — Smuckola (Email) (Talk) 10:49, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Native American identity in the United States. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 14:14, 14 February 2018 (UTC)