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It was puzzling to me that I was coming across numerous hotel articles having standardized statement how they are Historic Hotels of America, but there was no corresponding category linking them. There should be Category:Historic Hotels of America (currently a redlink). Now I further come across List of Historic Hotels of America, which was created by User:DannyS712, apparently as part of a CFD process, and they are kindly willing to defer to this new list which I was trying to make more substantial, i.e. it is okay by them for the List of Historic Hotels of America to be simply redirected (in this exchange, thanks!).
I was actually expecting to go create Category:Historic Hotels of America by visiting all the articles, after completing this list. But that category, exactly, was deleted by decision of the CFD, which was Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2018 September 19#Category:Historic Hotels of America. Which I think was the wrong decision. User:Thierry Caro was exactly right in that discussion, IMHO, objecting because the facts of the matter hadn't been understood by others (my summary). Including that Thierry pointed to Category:The Leading Hotels of the World as an example corresponding exactly to The Leading Hotels of the World article. Also I don't get the outcome "make a list of them, but then delete the category", because by wp:CLNT it is logical to immediately recreate the category, but that guidance was not addressed.
Now, anyhow, maybe the facts are clearer, in this new article already, which I have been building out to list all HHA members, and I have been creating articles for all of the missing ones. Because they all seem pretty clearly Wikipedia-notable to me. Maybe if there had been an explicit list-article of them all before the CFD, it would have gone differently, or not started at all? Historic Hotels of America is, at least now, a redirect to a short section in the National Trust for Historic Preservation article. The list of them all needs to be separate from that article.
Before I recreate the category, I don't want to run a new CFD if I don't have to, am not exactly sure what is absolutely required. User:Magnolia677 made the nomination for deletion of the category. And User:Good Olfactory closed it with decision "listify then delete the category". To Magnolia677 and GoodOlfactory and DannyS712, can you please give me guidance, i.e. give me permission, basically, to proceed? I am willing to open a new CFD if I do have to, but I would rather not be confrontational towards the other editors who I presume would have to be notified. In general, after an AFD has deleted an article, any editor is free to recreate it, though hopefully they should have more sources or whatever than were in the original article (if they have a copy of that), or at least they should be aware of the AFD's criticisms of it. I am less familiar with process after a CFD has deleted a category. I think it should be the same way, basically, and here I am aware of the previous criticisms and I am a pretty well-informed editor about lists of historic sites and corresponding categories so my judgment is not naive, and I believe this new list-article is better establishing the significance of the topic, and therefore establishing also the appropriateness of the corresponding category.
Sure, there exists Category:Historic hotels in the United States but that is simply a different thing. In the CFD someone else pointed to Category:Hotels by time, which has subcategories of hotels created by century, decade, year, but IMHO that is also irrelevant. The Historic Hotels of America are different because they are in effect certified by a worthy and respectable organization as having historic significance (equivalent to being NRHP-listed, if they are not in fact NRHP-listed) and as retaining historic authenticity now. Sure, there is a promotional tie-in involved, in that the NTHP gets some amount of money (maybe just pennies) for reservations made through the HHA webpages, but IMHO there is no way that blinds them or turn them into idiots. Again, I can indeed have a CFD if necessary but I would not enjoy having to be in-your-face disagreeing with others, maybe including some who might have had previous disagreements, if it is simply not necessary. By the way, some of those others may have already received some notice about this general topic area, by my having given notices at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Hawaii#some historic Hawaii hotels, including Hilo one at AFD and at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Register of Historic Places#Historic Hotels of America, help wanted. -- Doncram ( talk) 23:19, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
Hey Thierry Caro, FYI, I've gone on and recreated the Category:Historic Hotels of America. Thank you for creating it and populating it originally. It never shoulda been deleted. Now I think it is solid, very solid, with 216 member articles, and ain't nobody gonna ruin it ag'in. :) -- Doncram ( talk) 02:03, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
In process of developing this list-article, I've created many re-directs or otherwise established connections to many pre-existing articles. But I've been creating some:
-- Doncram ( talk) 02:29, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
How verify whether a hotel is HHA-listed currently or in the past? I have now tried to go through all of the HHA's listings, by searching on each state within their current website. Searching there is a bit weird:
So I am fairly confident, but not perfectly confident, that I have their entire current list.
The List of Historic Hotels of America list-article created at time of MFD documents what hotels were then in Category:Historic Hotels of America. This is much smaller than current list, was clearly not complete. But of more concern is that it included a number of hotels which are not covered at the current HHA site. Were they HHA-listed in the past, but dropped out for their own reasons or were dropped by the National Trust? Or were they just mistakenly put into the category? (WikiBlame tool searches identify User:Thierry Caro as an editor who added the category to many of these hotels, usually or always without noting a specific source. Thierry Caro also added it for most or all of the other, verified ones.) And this it is not a problem if the info is factual and just needs to be verified by a reliable source, right? Note that for U.S. NRHPs and NHLs we cover past, discontinued listings. We have complete documentation of when listed and delisted there, but not here, unfortunately: HHA is not required by anyone to continue to document past members.
The ones that were in the category which I can't verify are HHA-listed now are:
I thought temporarily that This "news" piece on hospitalitynet.org from 23 October 2017 identifies 25 HHA hotels that were "haunted", a source titled "The Top 25 Most Haunted Historic Hotels for 2017 announced by Historic Hotels of America" included some not currently HHA-listed. It includes quotes from HHA's head. Is it accurate? I am really not sure; I could easily see a paid writer creating such a fluff piece having to pull together whatever he/she can, and not really being concerned about exactness of "historic hotel in America" vs. "one of the Historic Hotels of America". But also it is identified as a "Press release", so maybe it really was produced by HHA and would be reliable about the hotels being HHA-listed, I would think. Or, hmm, it was HHA-released but included some non-HHA members: " here is the Historic Hotels of America Top 25 Most Haunted Historic Hotels for 2017 along with some of America's best hotel ghost stories". Hmm, oh, i was mistaken. These are all HHA-listed.
Also, for TripAdviser and other sources that assert HHA membership for a given hotel, it could easily be the case that the info came from Wikipedia! Or that people just don't know the distinction "historic" vs. "listed on the National Register of Historic Places" vs. "in the Historic Hotels of America" program.
By the way there are lots of grand old historic hotels NOT included in the HHA.
-- Doncram ( talk) 17:52, 8 April 2020 (UTC) 20:53, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
[ https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20180111005587/en/20-Legendary-Historic-Hotels-Inducted-Historic-Hotels This 2017 BusinessWire article/press release reports news of 2017 HHA 20 new memberships, including a number that I think are not members any longer in 2020:
Search BusinessWire for other such announcements? -- Doncram ( talk) 17:58, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
Trying that search:
Last year's directory is reproduced online. If others are also available, that would give a time period when a property dropped out. Our hotel would have been in the 2017 directory, but it should have been dropped by the time the 2018 edition went to print. Imzadi 1979 → 00:41, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
Perhaps we need to periodically record which are the current HHA members. In absence of good records from HHA themselves, or elsewhere, about additions and removals from the program (like the National Park Service does provide for places listed on the National Register of Historic Places). For what it's worth, the 272 current members per HHA website now as of December 15, 2022 are (and no one have a cow, this is a copy-paste, yes, but of a non-copyrightable list):
Hmm, maybe a move is needed. I was just kind of jarred by an edit by User:Imzadi1979 dropping mention of the "National Registry of the Historic Hotels of America" as if it is not a thing, and i reversed it. But maybe i have been all wrong, stemming from where i started, which was the AFD which ran from 10 March to 12 April about Grand Naniloa Hotel. This source which I found early in the AFD flatly states "A local icon and listed on the National Registry of the Historic Hotels of America, the Grand Naniloa offers guests a truly authentic Hawaiian experience", and then I started developing this list-article and learning about the program. And back in the AFD two other editors explained their votes mentioning this full exact term. But maybe that Hawaii.com is the only exact usage that way outside Wikipedia, and I do recognize that people do get terms like this wrong, from seeing mistakes related to National Register of Historic Places' historic districts.
Anyhow, i think I also went with the full formal "NRHHA" phrase, as Historic Hotels of America (which I thought was a shortcut name) was already a redirect to National Trust for Historic Preservation. If the shorter/informal name was better, i figured i could request a move over redirect later, depending on redirect's history. Hmm, now I see redirect was in place from 2011 though doesn't have substantial history, and I see that Imzadi has requested deletion there. Imzadi1979 were you just going to move this abruptly? I probably would have experienced that as very rude. -- Doncram ( talk) 13:36, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
As for the ultimate form of the article, even a list needs a prose description/lead to introduce the listing. Take a look at Pure Michigan Byway, and you'll find a description and history of that program to introduce the list. I would imagine something similar here would work, so there wouldn't need to be separate articles on the program and listing of members. Imzadi 1979 → 22:26, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Page moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) Jerm ( talk) 19:05, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
National Registry of the Historic Hotels of America → Historic Hotels of America – The current name of this page is demonstrably incorrect. The name of the program by the National Trust for Historic Preservation is just "Historic Hotels of America". This can be proven by just looking at the program's webpage at https://www.historichotels.org. There is no "National Registry of the Historic Hotels of America". Additionally, there are 333,000 Google search results with the correct name, and just three of the other after filtering out Wikipedia, and one of those three is a Wikipedia mirror page. And if those reasons are still not sufficient, I work for a hotel that participated in the program and can personally verify what the plaque in our lobby or the logo on my business cards gave for the program name. Imzadi 1979 → 18:02, 14 April 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. b uidh e 17:43, 21 April 2020 (UTC)
Perhaps by interview/direct call to program, if can't be resolved by research of published news articles, etc.:
-- Doncram ( talk) 23:29, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
Don't want to be too promotional. For one thing, if very promotional, undermines argument of significance of HHA listing as an indicator of importance. This started with a Hawaii hotel AFD where HHA mention was considered and questioned as an indicator of something. On the other hand, the HHA listing _seems_ important, in that for the most part when go to start an article, it seems the hotel is significant, would meet GNG. Similar issue to NRHP-listing, where fact of NRHP eligibility assessment seems to be a significant factor in assessing notability of place, beyond the actual history or architecture that justified the listing, so there is some circularity. For HHAs, is it clear or not that all members should be expected to be Wikipedia-notable. Note combo articles, sometimes a possibility for similar NRHPs, seem not possible here, as hotels are scattered and unrelated.
Although my own contributions to this list-article have quoted obviously promotional statements, and the whole nature of the list-article is arguably promotional, I am aware of the need for better balance at least with respect to current version (april 15) of list-article. What can be done?
Other notes/comments welcome. -- Doncram ( talk) 13:45, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
Current ordering is jumbled, in some states is order presented in search results for state at HHA site, somewhat random otherwise. Some of the "founding" ones were put up front within state in the editing, maybe overstating importance of that.
Maybe this becomes one big table, perhaps organized by state then city, but sortable by state and by root-year. Or is it okay/good to have separate section for each state, although perhaps a table for each one sortable for the state but not possible to sort across states.
Either way, should order within state be by city, then alphabetical by name of hotel? Seems helpful to group the Los Angeles ones together. Or go alphabetically by hotel name. Or organize within state by root-year? Order within state matters less if have a sortable state-table.
Order of states was developed sort of west to east, has been converted to alphabetical order. Really no feasible other order of states.
What sets order on HHA site when search for "Florida" say, is it randomized (and different orders come up? making fair-er for ones that would otherwise always be less accessible on a second page of results). Or is it by member joining date. Not by root-year or hotel conversion year. -- Doncram ( talk) 13:57, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
In developing articles about a lot of these, I have been noting the fact of NRHP listing for some. I think, so far, that ones whose HHA pages state they are NRHP-listed have all borne out, i.e. I could verify that. And some/many HHA pages and hotels' own pages don't bother to mention NRHP listing, when in fact they are contributing buildings in NRHP-listed historic districts, where i have found that to be the case.
The dab page has a red link: Hotel Viking (Rhode Island). Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 20:27, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
06:45, 3 September 2015 Jimfbleak talk contribs deleted page Hotel Viking (Rhode Island) (G11: Unambiguous advertising or promotion) (thank)
There is Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Historic Hotels of America going on, opened as an ANI proceeding against me in particular. It is very unpleasant to be in the target-hairs there, and kind of difficult and time-consuming to construct a response. Anyhow, there I suggest that any editing issues shoulda been brought up here, but no one has done so. Should the commenters there be pinged and invited to come here, I wonder. -- Doncram ( talk) 02:59, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
An editor unilaterally moved this to Draft space, instead of discussing issues here, and I have now returned it to mainspace. The move broke about 1000 incoming links. That editor opened an ANI proceeding, instead, where there is I think no disagreement about the validity of this topic. And there is no disagreement about some desired changes. There was/is no consensus that a list-article, especially one with a big "Under Construction" template upon it, needs to be perfect. If you have an issue, please use normal Wikipedia processes, including by discussing here first. -- Doncram ( talk) 01:01, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
Some bits (notes) to keep track of (strike out when fully addressed in the list-article):
The list of articles that I draftified in accordance with this discussion is currently sitting in my personal sandbox. To get it out of there—and ideally to a more prominent and useful location—I've thought of creating a subpage of this talk page to hold it. Would anyone have any objection to that? Deor ( talk) 16:21, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
Historic Inns of Annapolis gained assertion that "Other Historical Hotels in America" included:
Check these out, and add to list and to Category:Historic Hotels of America? -- Doncram ( talk) 11:55, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
I think that rather have a long string of photos of the hotels on the right, make a gallery of photos for each state (that has more than one), or (if there is only one) put it in that state's section. Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 01:49, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
I reverted these changes done by newly-registered editor Liviekitty33 as this is a list of current and former HHA members, while they deleted many. New ones can be added, with sourcing, and old ones can be updated to indicate they are no longer current HHA members, however. --Doncram ( talk, contribs) 17:12, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
Certainly restoring/adding new members should be done, and I was starting to revisit Liviekitty33's edits to do so, when Wikipedia editing went down, an hour ago or so. --Doncram ( talk, contribs) 19:31, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
In these edits just now, addressing Alabama thrpugh California only so far, I added indications of which hotels are no longer HHA members as of December 2022, per Liviekitty33's having checked at the HHA website, and I also added back the new members Liviekitty33 had added, with indication that they are recent members as of December 2022. The indications are by use of two new footnotes named "no2022-12" and "new2022-12". The information could be indicated in some other way, perhaps by color-coding of rows, but this is what I came up with for the moment. Hopefully User:Liviekitty33 and perhaps others will join discussion here about how to handle this info. A different potential treatment would be to completely delete all mention of former HHA members (I don't happen to think that is a good idea, but it could be proposed). --Doncram ( talk, contribs) 19:57, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
User:Liviekitty33, maybe you've seen in your watchlist that I have been stepping through your own contribution history (i am up to your edit of 16:15, 14 December 2022 m on Riggs National Bank, Washington Loan and Trust Company Branch with edit summary "Cited hotel's induction into Historic Hotels of America" so far). In these edits, I trust you don't mind, I am adding HHA category, and changing your characterization of HHA as "the official program" of the National Trust into "an official program" (it is in fact a tiny component of the National Trust's work (it has $86 million revenues!)), and using an internal wikilink to HHA article rather than an external link, and perhaps a few other similar changes. Please do comment if these are fully okay by you or if you prefer some other tweaking.
I do mainly want to say that I very much appreciate your having updated this main HHA article and linked to all the new HHA listings, and more. I myself wasn't recently willing to do all that work ... in my HHA-related editing time I was still working at addressing draft articles about HHA places listed by something like 2019. Thank you for you attention to this.
Also, do you want to work on any of the drafted-and-not-in-mainspace articles (see list linked from a section above), or further develop any existing ones, or create new ones? Let me know and I would be happy to work together with you. cheers, --Doncram ( talk, contribs) 02:13, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
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It was puzzling to me that I was coming across numerous hotel articles having standardized statement how they are Historic Hotels of America, but there was no corresponding category linking them. There should be Category:Historic Hotels of America (currently a redlink). Now I further come across List of Historic Hotels of America, which was created by User:DannyS712, apparently as part of a CFD process, and they are kindly willing to defer to this new list which I was trying to make more substantial, i.e. it is okay by them for the List of Historic Hotels of America to be simply redirected (in this exchange, thanks!).
I was actually expecting to go create Category:Historic Hotels of America by visiting all the articles, after completing this list. But that category, exactly, was deleted by decision of the CFD, which was Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2018 September 19#Category:Historic Hotels of America. Which I think was the wrong decision. User:Thierry Caro was exactly right in that discussion, IMHO, objecting because the facts of the matter hadn't been understood by others (my summary). Including that Thierry pointed to Category:The Leading Hotels of the World as an example corresponding exactly to The Leading Hotels of the World article. Also I don't get the outcome "make a list of them, but then delete the category", because by wp:CLNT it is logical to immediately recreate the category, but that guidance was not addressed.
Now, anyhow, maybe the facts are clearer, in this new article already, which I have been building out to list all HHA members, and I have been creating articles for all of the missing ones. Because they all seem pretty clearly Wikipedia-notable to me. Maybe if there had been an explicit list-article of them all before the CFD, it would have gone differently, or not started at all? Historic Hotels of America is, at least now, a redirect to a short section in the National Trust for Historic Preservation article. The list of them all needs to be separate from that article.
Before I recreate the category, I don't want to run a new CFD if I don't have to, am not exactly sure what is absolutely required. User:Magnolia677 made the nomination for deletion of the category. And User:Good Olfactory closed it with decision "listify then delete the category". To Magnolia677 and GoodOlfactory and DannyS712, can you please give me guidance, i.e. give me permission, basically, to proceed? I am willing to open a new CFD if I do have to, but I would rather not be confrontational towards the other editors who I presume would have to be notified. In general, after an AFD has deleted an article, any editor is free to recreate it, though hopefully they should have more sources or whatever than were in the original article (if they have a copy of that), or at least they should be aware of the AFD's criticisms of it. I am less familiar with process after a CFD has deleted a category. I think it should be the same way, basically, and here I am aware of the previous criticisms and I am a pretty well-informed editor about lists of historic sites and corresponding categories so my judgment is not naive, and I believe this new list-article is better establishing the significance of the topic, and therefore establishing also the appropriateness of the corresponding category.
Sure, there exists Category:Historic hotels in the United States but that is simply a different thing. In the CFD someone else pointed to Category:Hotels by time, which has subcategories of hotels created by century, decade, year, but IMHO that is also irrelevant. The Historic Hotels of America are different because they are in effect certified by a worthy and respectable organization as having historic significance (equivalent to being NRHP-listed, if they are not in fact NRHP-listed) and as retaining historic authenticity now. Sure, there is a promotional tie-in involved, in that the NTHP gets some amount of money (maybe just pennies) for reservations made through the HHA webpages, but IMHO there is no way that blinds them or turn them into idiots. Again, I can indeed have a CFD if necessary but I would not enjoy having to be in-your-face disagreeing with others, maybe including some who might have had previous disagreements, if it is simply not necessary. By the way, some of those others may have already received some notice about this general topic area, by my having given notices at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Hawaii#some historic Hawaii hotels, including Hilo one at AFD and at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Register of Historic Places#Historic Hotels of America, help wanted. -- Doncram ( talk) 23:19, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
Hey Thierry Caro, FYI, I've gone on and recreated the Category:Historic Hotels of America. Thank you for creating it and populating it originally. It never shoulda been deleted. Now I think it is solid, very solid, with 216 member articles, and ain't nobody gonna ruin it ag'in. :) -- Doncram ( talk) 02:03, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
In process of developing this list-article, I've created many re-directs or otherwise established connections to many pre-existing articles. But I've been creating some:
-- Doncram ( talk) 02:29, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
How verify whether a hotel is HHA-listed currently or in the past? I have now tried to go through all of the HHA's listings, by searching on each state within their current website. Searching there is a bit weird:
So I am fairly confident, but not perfectly confident, that I have their entire current list.
The List of Historic Hotels of America list-article created at time of MFD documents what hotels were then in Category:Historic Hotels of America. This is much smaller than current list, was clearly not complete. But of more concern is that it included a number of hotels which are not covered at the current HHA site. Were they HHA-listed in the past, but dropped out for their own reasons or were dropped by the National Trust? Or were they just mistakenly put into the category? (WikiBlame tool searches identify User:Thierry Caro as an editor who added the category to many of these hotels, usually or always without noting a specific source. Thierry Caro also added it for most or all of the other, verified ones.) And this it is not a problem if the info is factual and just needs to be verified by a reliable source, right? Note that for U.S. NRHPs and NHLs we cover past, discontinued listings. We have complete documentation of when listed and delisted there, but not here, unfortunately: HHA is not required by anyone to continue to document past members.
The ones that were in the category which I can't verify are HHA-listed now are:
I thought temporarily that This "news" piece on hospitalitynet.org from 23 October 2017 identifies 25 HHA hotels that were "haunted", a source titled "The Top 25 Most Haunted Historic Hotels for 2017 announced by Historic Hotels of America" included some not currently HHA-listed. It includes quotes from HHA's head. Is it accurate? I am really not sure; I could easily see a paid writer creating such a fluff piece having to pull together whatever he/she can, and not really being concerned about exactness of "historic hotel in America" vs. "one of the Historic Hotels of America". But also it is identified as a "Press release", so maybe it really was produced by HHA and would be reliable about the hotels being HHA-listed, I would think. Or, hmm, it was HHA-released but included some non-HHA members: " here is the Historic Hotels of America Top 25 Most Haunted Historic Hotels for 2017 along with some of America's best hotel ghost stories". Hmm, oh, i was mistaken. These are all HHA-listed.
Also, for TripAdviser and other sources that assert HHA membership for a given hotel, it could easily be the case that the info came from Wikipedia! Or that people just don't know the distinction "historic" vs. "listed on the National Register of Historic Places" vs. "in the Historic Hotels of America" program.
By the way there are lots of grand old historic hotels NOT included in the HHA.
-- Doncram ( talk) 17:52, 8 April 2020 (UTC) 20:53, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
[ https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20180111005587/en/20-Legendary-Historic-Hotels-Inducted-Historic-Hotels This 2017 BusinessWire article/press release reports news of 2017 HHA 20 new memberships, including a number that I think are not members any longer in 2020:
Search BusinessWire for other such announcements? -- Doncram ( talk) 17:58, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
Trying that search:
Last year's directory is reproduced online. If others are also available, that would give a time period when a property dropped out. Our hotel would have been in the 2017 directory, but it should have been dropped by the time the 2018 edition went to print. Imzadi 1979 → 00:41, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
Perhaps we need to periodically record which are the current HHA members. In absence of good records from HHA themselves, or elsewhere, about additions and removals from the program (like the National Park Service does provide for places listed on the National Register of Historic Places). For what it's worth, the 272 current members per HHA website now as of December 15, 2022 are (and no one have a cow, this is a copy-paste, yes, but of a non-copyrightable list):
Hmm, maybe a move is needed. I was just kind of jarred by an edit by User:Imzadi1979 dropping mention of the "National Registry of the Historic Hotels of America" as if it is not a thing, and i reversed it. But maybe i have been all wrong, stemming from where i started, which was the AFD which ran from 10 March to 12 April about Grand Naniloa Hotel. This source which I found early in the AFD flatly states "A local icon and listed on the National Registry of the Historic Hotels of America, the Grand Naniloa offers guests a truly authentic Hawaiian experience", and then I started developing this list-article and learning about the program. And back in the AFD two other editors explained their votes mentioning this full exact term. But maybe that Hawaii.com is the only exact usage that way outside Wikipedia, and I do recognize that people do get terms like this wrong, from seeing mistakes related to National Register of Historic Places' historic districts.
Anyhow, i think I also went with the full formal "NRHHA" phrase, as Historic Hotels of America (which I thought was a shortcut name) was already a redirect to National Trust for Historic Preservation. If the shorter/informal name was better, i figured i could request a move over redirect later, depending on redirect's history. Hmm, now I see redirect was in place from 2011 though doesn't have substantial history, and I see that Imzadi has requested deletion there. Imzadi1979 were you just going to move this abruptly? I probably would have experienced that as very rude. -- Doncram ( talk) 13:36, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
As for the ultimate form of the article, even a list needs a prose description/lead to introduce the listing. Take a look at Pure Michigan Byway, and you'll find a description and history of that program to introduce the list. I would imagine something similar here would work, so there wouldn't need to be separate articles on the program and listing of members. Imzadi 1979 → 22:26, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Page moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) Jerm ( talk) 19:05, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
National Registry of the Historic Hotels of America → Historic Hotels of America – The current name of this page is demonstrably incorrect. The name of the program by the National Trust for Historic Preservation is just "Historic Hotels of America". This can be proven by just looking at the program's webpage at https://www.historichotels.org. There is no "National Registry of the Historic Hotels of America". Additionally, there are 333,000 Google search results with the correct name, and just three of the other after filtering out Wikipedia, and one of those three is a Wikipedia mirror page. And if those reasons are still not sufficient, I work for a hotel that participated in the program and can personally verify what the plaque in our lobby or the logo on my business cards gave for the program name. Imzadi 1979 → 18:02, 14 April 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. b uidh e 17:43, 21 April 2020 (UTC)
Perhaps by interview/direct call to program, if can't be resolved by research of published news articles, etc.:
-- Doncram ( talk) 23:29, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
Don't want to be too promotional. For one thing, if very promotional, undermines argument of significance of HHA listing as an indicator of importance. This started with a Hawaii hotel AFD where HHA mention was considered and questioned as an indicator of something. On the other hand, the HHA listing _seems_ important, in that for the most part when go to start an article, it seems the hotel is significant, would meet GNG. Similar issue to NRHP-listing, where fact of NRHP eligibility assessment seems to be a significant factor in assessing notability of place, beyond the actual history or architecture that justified the listing, so there is some circularity. For HHAs, is it clear or not that all members should be expected to be Wikipedia-notable. Note combo articles, sometimes a possibility for similar NRHPs, seem not possible here, as hotels are scattered and unrelated.
Although my own contributions to this list-article have quoted obviously promotional statements, and the whole nature of the list-article is arguably promotional, I am aware of the need for better balance at least with respect to current version (april 15) of list-article. What can be done?
Other notes/comments welcome. -- Doncram ( talk) 13:45, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
Current ordering is jumbled, in some states is order presented in search results for state at HHA site, somewhat random otherwise. Some of the "founding" ones were put up front within state in the editing, maybe overstating importance of that.
Maybe this becomes one big table, perhaps organized by state then city, but sortable by state and by root-year. Or is it okay/good to have separate section for each state, although perhaps a table for each one sortable for the state but not possible to sort across states.
Either way, should order within state be by city, then alphabetical by name of hotel? Seems helpful to group the Los Angeles ones together. Or go alphabetically by hotel name. Or organize within state by root-year? Order within state matters less if have a sortable state-table.
Order of states was developed sort of west to east, has been converted to alphabetical order. Really no feasible other order of states.
What sets order on HHA site when search for "Florida" say, is it randomized (and different orders come up? making fair-er for ones that would otherwise always be less accessible on a second page of results). Or is it by member joining date. Not by root-year or hotel conversion year. -- Doncram ( talk) 13:57, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
In developing articles about a lot of these, I have been noting the fact of NRHP listing for some. I think, so far, that ones whose HHA pages state they are NRHP-listed have all borne out, i.e. I could verify that. And some/many HHA pages and hotels' own pages don't bother to mention NRHP listing, when in fact they are contributing buildings in NRHP-listed historic districts, where i have found that to be the case.
The dab page has a red link: Hotel Viking (Rhode Island). Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 20:27, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
06:45, 3 September 2015 Jimfbleak talk contribs deleted page Hotel Viking (Rhode Island) (G11: Unambiguous advertising or promotion) (thank)
There is Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Historic Hotels of America going on, opened as an ANI proceeding against me in particular. It is very unpleasant to be in the target-hairs there, and kind of difficult and time-consuming to construct a response. Anyhow, there I suggest that any editing issues shoulda been brought up here, but no one has done so. Should the commenters there be pinged and invited to come here, I wonder. -- Doncram ( talk) 02:59, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
An editor unilaterally moved this to Draft space, instead of discussing issues here, and I have now returned it to mainspace. The move broke about 1000 incoming links. That editor opened an ANI proceeding, instead, where there is I think no disagreement about the validity of this topic. And there is no disagreement about some desired changes. There was/is no consensus that a list-article, especially one with a big "Under Construction" template upon it, needs to be perfect. If you have an issue, please use normal Wikipedia processes, including by discussing here first. -- Doncram ( talk) 01:01, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
Some bits (notes) to keep track of (strike out when fully addressed in the list-article):
The list of articles that I draftified in accordance with this discussion is currently sitting in my personal sandbox. To get it out of there—and ideally to a more prominent and useful location—I've thought of creating a subpage of this talk page to hold it. Would anyone have any objection to that? Deor ( talk) 16:21, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
Historic Inns of Annapolis gained assertion that "Other Historical Hotels in America" included:
Check these out, and add to list and to Category:Historic Hotels of America? -- Doncram ( talk) 11:55, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
I think that rather have a long string of photos of the hotels on the right, make a gallery of photos for each state (that has more than one), or (if there is only one) put it in that state's section. Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 01:49, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
I reverted these changes done by newly-registered editor Liviekitty33 as this is a list of current and former HHA members, while they deleted many. New ones can be added, with sourcing, and old ones can be updated to indicate they are no longer current HHA members, however. --Doncram ( talk, contribs) 17:12, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
Certainly restoring/adding new members should be done, and I was starting to revisit Liviekitty33's edits to do so, when Wikipedia editing went down, an hour ago or so. --Doncram ( talk, contribs) 19:31, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
In these edits just now, addressing Alabama thrpugh California only so far, I added indications of which hotels are no longer HHA members as of December 2022, per Liviekitty33's having checked at the HHA website, and I also added back the new members Liviekitty33 had added, with indication that they are recent members as of December 2022. The indications are by use of two new footnotes named "no2022-12" and "new2022-12". The information could be indicated in some other way, perhaps by color-coding of rows, but this is what I came up with for the moment. Hopefully User:Liviekitty33 and perhaps others will join discussion here about how to handle this info. A different potential treatment would be to completely delete all mention of former HHA members (I don't happen to think that is a good idea, but it could be proposed). --Doncram ( talk, contribs) 19:57, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
User:Liviekitty33, maybe you've seen in your watchlist that I have been stepping through your own contribution history (i am up to your edit of 16:15, 14 December 2022 m on Riggs National Bank, Washington Loan and Trust Company Branch with edit summary "Cited hotel's induction into Historic Hotels of America" so far). In these edits, I trust you don't mind, I am adding HHA category, and changing your characterization of HHA as "the official program" of the National Trust into "an official program" (it is in fact a tiny component of the National Trust's work (it has $86 million revenues!)), and using an internal wikilink to HHA article rather than an external link, and perhaps a few other similar changes. Please do comment if these are fully okay by you or if you prefer some other tweaking.
I do mainly want to say that I very much appreciate your having updated this main HHA article and linked to all the new HHA listings, and more. I myself wasn't recently willing to do all that work ... in my HHA-related editing time I was still working at addressing draft articles about HHA places listed by something like 2019. Thank you for you attention to this.
Also, do you want to work on any of the drafted-and-not-in-mainspace articles (see list linked from a section above), or further develop any existing ones, or create new ones? Let me know and I would be happy to work together with you. cheers, --Doncram ( talk, contribs) 02:13, 22 December 2022 (UTC)