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You only have to look at Google News pretty much any day of the week! -- Red King 12:37, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
Fair enough. Gaeilgeoirs in so many English papers, who would have thought?
Lapsed Pacifist 12:55, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
I have to agree somewhat with LP on this one, their is approx 135 instances of "Eire" in Google News, 15 are of these are "Eire Og" (Google does not appear to respect the " fada"), additionally their are 2,280 instances of "Republic of Ireland", 38,000 of Ireland, 584 of "Irish Republic" - some of these stories are of historical nature and this should be taken into account. Using Eire for the Republic of Ireland football team is pure idleness, moreover my honest belief is that "Eire" is often used purely out of incompetence, if not sectarianism. Theirfore I would be reserved in my use of Eire. Djegan 19:39, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
For an informal merger discussion see Wikipedia_talk:Irish_Wikipedians'_notice_board#Names_of_Ireland.
Djegan 20:03, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
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Image:Cropped euro coin.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. BetacommandBot 05:24, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
I am unhappy with this edit [1]. The preamble to the 1937 Irish Constitution in English says "We, the people of Éire," rather than "We, the people of Ireland," where the Irish starts "Ar mbeith dúinne, muintir na hÉireann,". [2] [3] This should be mentioned as it points to Éire being an acceptable word in English. In addition, another point is that Article 4 says "Éire is ainm don Stát nó, sa Sacs-Bhéarla, Ireland" in Irish and "The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland" in English (with italics as in the original) rather than the more natural "The name of the State is Ireland, or, in the Irish language, Éire", and so fails explicitly to present Éire as being an exclusively Irish usage. -- Rumping ( talk) 23:41, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Article 9
1. 1° On the coming into operation of this Constitution any person who was a citizen of Saorstát Éireann immediately before the coming into operation of this Constitution shall become and be a citizen of Ireland.
The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland
So the name of the state is "Ireland" in the English language but "Éire" in every other language ? 2.127.208.169 ( talk) 00:20, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
This should be Republic of Ireland (name) or something similar as thats what it deals with -- Republic of Ireland. Djegan ( talk) 17:46, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
Yes - I've fixed that. Things are now back to the status quo ante (12 August). Complaints over the ill-advised "toponymy" move spree go to User talk:Neelix please. -- dab (𒁳) 15:07, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
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Originally, the last section covered colloquial terms used by Irish people for their country - that is, what they actually call themselves in real life. This was a very important section, because it emphasised that the naming controversy discussed above is largely irrelevant to ordinary Irish people. Now someone has inserted a lot of quotes from the style guides of British newspapers. How are these relevant to this important section? Michael of Lucan ( talk) 10:16, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
Of the following group of entries, only the first is a reasonable contender for the title "Ireland":
The island has formerly been subject to a number of political arrangements (arranged in reverse chronological order):
The rest of them are aspects of
Ireland (the island) that are appropriate to find via the
Ireland article, the accompanying article
Names of the Irish state, or perhaps something along the lines of
List of Irish states,
Succession of sovereignties in Ireland, or possibilities i probably still wouldn't blunder onto if i kept listing possibilities.
I've moved those entries to this talk page rather than just discarding them where they don't belong, in the hope that the work of compiling them will not be wasted if the accompanying article (which is now a see-also entry on the Dab'n page for "Ireland") doesn't leave them redundant, and to draw attention to the possibility that there are roles, valid for WP but which were misplaced onto the Dab page, that should be provided for on new or existing pages.
--
Jerzy•
t 07:55, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
Is the football team and the passport not notable? funny, I thought the football was one of the best in the world and the passport was one of the most unique in the world. Silly me that must be crap I don't understand. ~ R. T. G 14:33, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
(moved from my Talk page)
Do not remove well sourced and relevent info such as related to the national football team and the Irish passport being unrestricted over the island
[4]
[5]. What are you doing? If the passport bearing the states name goes outside the bounds of other legislation bearing the states name, that is not for you removing. If the football team is commonly refered to as either name, that is not for removing. If you want to discuss that do so on the talk page
Talk:Names of the Irish state thanks. ~
R.
T.
G 14:29, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
@Highking, I said that what you did was crappy (wasteful) and I didn't understand. I shouldn't like to point such clear language out as it can be construed incivil when stressed, can it not? You understand perfectly, do you not, the edits cited were rubbishing the info? Well, the football team, the passport, and the island, they are important stuffs, older and more respected than you or I. Alter by all means (and cite the passport why don't you? I suspect it is not within your interest perhaps?). The team is a state institution. I am sorry if you think that is final. I assure you, I do not get the scent from you, like. Oh I mean, don't worry, it is unlikely you will gather my interest again is it? Yeah sure, I will note your preferences, now in a minute, thanks for the personal notes. ~ R. T. G 16:13, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
Hi, you recently reverted an edit where I reverted a user trying to insert the following into an article: The state's national football team, while often referred to (including by itself) as "Ireland", officially plays as the "Republic of Ireland" because Northern Ireland also fields a team in international competitions and in 1954 FIFA was no longer prepared to tolerate two teams called "Ireland". Can you help me understand why you believe that this is relevant in the article? It appears in the "official description" section, but it has nothing to do with the official description. Is there some dispute over the description and you're using the football team as an example of something? Thank you. -- HighKing ( talk) 15:56, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
Sigh. Moving on...: We currently have 3 sections: Official name; Official description; European Union. The UN is mentioned in the "official name" section since the UN calls the state by its official name; FIFA is mentioned in the "official description" section since FIFA calls the state's team by the state's official description. The EU is separate because it's more complex. IMO, HighKing's concerns can be addressed and the article improved by removing the UN and FIFA mentions into an expanded EU section renamed something like "International practice", explaining how various international organisations currently and previously refer to the state.Other titbits for this section would be the following, which I can't yet source:
Some of this overlapped with Irish bodies claiming 32-county jurisdiction. I'm also unhappy that calling the state "Eire" is being presented as a purely British practice. I've seen "Eire" described in French and German reference books as the former name for the Republic of Ireland. Feel free to prove the Brits spread that canard. jnestorius( talk) 01:24, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
I don't really think the Belfast Agreement actually resolved anything on the name of the Irish state. It talked about the Government of Ireland and the Constitution of Ireland, a body and a document, but it did not seem to use a name for the state or the geographical area which is that part of the island of Ireland which is not Northern Ireland. By contrast, Northern Ireland was mentioned frequently and United Kingdom occasionally. A star to anyone who can find something better at [8] which is clearer and more explicit than either South as in "North and South", or the like area and extent of application as the laws enacted by the Parliament that existed immediately before the coming into operation of this Constitution meaning the territory of the pre-1937 Irish Free State. -- Rumping ( talk) 15:31, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
There has never been a the Irish state. There is of course one today that may be seen as "The State Ireland" (close but not the whole biscuit). ~ R. T. G 18:51, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
Ultimately it should be Names of Ireland (preferred) or Names of the Republic of Ireland. No Names of Ireland (state) nonsense. Djegan ( talk) 13:53, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
Right, to discuss the naming of the Ireland article visit this place where all of my views are set out. I am just going to ask here, if nobody manages to use the word Irish in this debate except me and the articles title, are we politically biased? and, Anybody discussing a move from singular to plural? ~ R. T. G 13:36, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
It seems that the Irish Government often uses "Republic of Ireland", usually when it wishes to distinguish Northern Ireland, though not always even in that case. A wide variety of examples from different departments include [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17]. A Google search of the phrase "Ireland and Northern Ireland" turn up a variety of pages, [18] some of which use "Republic of" and other which do not - there does not seem to be a pattern of when it is used and when not, except when some other word can be used such as "Fáilte Ireland and Northern Ireland Tourist Board". It also seems that international agreements in the second half of 1949 and the first half of 1950 were signed by the "Government of the Republic of Ireland". [19] [20] I would guess that a decision was then made to return to "Government of Ireland".-- Rumping ( talk) 00:30, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
~ R. T. G 15:03, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
What does "Explicitly recognise" mean, in the context of this passage? :-
To my mind, discussing a document by quoting words used in it does not amount to endorsing it. jnestorius( talk) 01:48, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
OK, for clarity and to keep things as simple as I can, I reproduce here the few sentences we are discussing and add in what I can to clarify things for you:
The statement in Article 4 "The name of the state is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland" giving the state the names of the island in both Irish and English was another anti-partitionist attempt to lay claim to the whole of the island.[Not disputed by you I think] In response to the new constitution, the British government published a communiqué on 30 December 1937, the day after the constitution took effect.[Not disputed by you I think] In the communiqué, the British government recognised that the new constitution gave the Irish state two names Ireland or Éire.[Do you dispute this? If you do - I do not know why, here are a few words from the UK Gov. communique below...in future to be described under the Constitution as 'Eire' [sic] or 'Ireland ]' It also implicitly recognised that the two names had an identical meaning, [You appear to think this is controversial - I do not know why you think that - For starters, have a look at this: [43] and in particular paragraph 3 and 4 of that Canadian Government Circular - which says, inter alia, "The United Kingdom Government, in a statement published on December 30, 1937, recognized implicitly the identical meaning of the names "Ireland" and "Eire""] by declaring:
"His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom has considered the position created by the new Constitution ... of the Irish Free State, in future to be described under the Constitution as 'Eire' [sic] or 'Ireland' ... [and] cannot recognize that the adoption of the name 'Eire' or 'Ireland', or any other provision of those articles [of the Irish constitution], involves any right to territory ... forming part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland ... They therefore regard the use of the name 'Eire' or 'Ireland' in this connection as relating only to that area which has hitherto been known as the Irish Free State."
After this initial response, the British government quickly decided to refer to the state only as "Eire" and not Ireland. The British government finessed Article 4 and ignored Articles 2 and 3: if the Irish constitution said the name of the state in the national language was Éire, then that (written as "Eire") was what the British government would call it. By doing so, it avoided any need to call the Irish state, in the English language, Ireland. The change of name effected by the 1937 constitution (but not the other constitutional changes), was given effect in United Kingdom law in the Eire (Confirmation of Agreements) Act 1938. Under Section 1 of that Act, it was declared that (for the purposes of United Kingdom legislation) the territory "which was ... known as Irish Free State shall be styled as ... Eire". [OK - Hope, this clarifies things. Re the Guardian headline, I think you'll agree, sticking a headline into the article did not work. Regards. Redking7 ( talk) 20:54, 23 April 2009 (UTC)]
I'm not very comfortable with the presentation of the discrepancy between the correct "Éire" and the foreign use of "Eire". While the latter is undoubtedly incorrect, we must avoid suggesting it is egregiously ignorant, still less a calculated snub. There is no evidence that either is the case. Consider the following points:
I'm unsure what kind of rephrasing might be done, or what sources might be cited. jnestorius( talk) 20:40, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
"Éire" is a different word than "Éireann" ... right?
So if Éire is Ireland in English, then is Éireann ... what?
ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! ( talk) 03:38, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
Hello Angr.
The Kingdom of France (c. 843-1789), and the Kingdom of the French (1791-1792) were two different countries. The series of Names of the French Kingdom, the Kingdom of France, and the Kingdom of the French in the French Language are analogous to the series of Names of the Irish Republic, the Republic of Ireland, and the Republic of the Irish in the English Language.
Now, Saorstát Éireann has a literal translation of Irish Free State,
So what would be the literal translation of Saorstát na hÉireann ... ?
ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! ( talk) 11:11, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
Ah ha!!!!
Thank you.
Éireannach is Irish, and Éireann is Ireland.
ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! ( talk) 11:48, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
User One Night In Hackney has made POV edits (POV as they are not backed up by any sources but are clearly divisive in intent), being:
This is, I am afraid, bad faith editing. No point mincing words. 84.203.65.224 ( talk) 00:16, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
I take no position on whether the previous version was correct. However as is obvious to anyone who is paying attention, the IP editor is known disruptive indef blocked editor Redking7 ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) evading his block and he will be reverted and blocked on sight. 2 lines of K 303 14:14, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
I have reverted a huge (500+ chars) reversion by User:OneNightinHackney going back many edits. This threw the baby out with the bath water. However the rights and wrongs of its origins, the article had improved significantly as a result. The text matched the legal and constitutional reality: ONiH's version does not do that. It is completely contrary to the consensus rules to make such a major edit without prior discussion. It does not matter that the change was initiated by a subsequently banned editor: a number of other editors had worked on it since. Before you revert it again, please discuss it here. Which words do you not like and what is your basis for doing so. -- Red King ( talk) 18:50, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
I note that in recent Edits (over the past few months or less), the opening sentence has been changed for POV reasons. It should read simply as follows (as it did for a long time previuosly):
"The state whose name is Ireland ( Irish: Éire) is and has been known by a number of other names, some of which have been controversial."
This article is about the name of the State. Not other things like its description etc. 84.203.65.224 ( talk) 00:20, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
I don't understand the terms "conventional short form name" and "conventional long form name" (well ok I think I do because I speak Wikpedish, but I don't believe that the man on the Hackney omnibus would). What does the word 'conventional' mean? Is the same as
common name?
Let's take the French Republic and the Italian Republic (their respective constitional names). Does 'conventional' mean that they are most often known as France and Italy respectively [and incorrectly: geographic France contains Monaco and the Channel Islands, it does not contain the Overseas Départements; geographic Italy contains San Marino, the Vatican and (arguably) Corsica]. In the case of Ireland, the 'common name' and the 'constitutional name' are both the same, Ireland. [except in the UK, when jounalists use Eire (sic), the Irish Republic (sic!), Southern Ireland (sic), or the Republic of Ireland - and ordinary people just say 'Ireland']. Or are we talking about the UK case where the legal form is "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland' and the common names are UK and Britain? The former (UKoGB&NI) is not a 'conventional' long form, it is the full legal title. The other two are what I would call
common names.
So can we change 'conventional long form' to 'constitutional name' and and 'conventional short name' to
common name? --
Red King (
talk) 15:29, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
The Czech State has the long-form Name of the Czech Republic, and the short-form Name of Czechia. Google Search: http://www.google.ca/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=0&oq=Czechia&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4SUNA_en___CA321&q=Czechia Czechia Website: http://www.czechia.org/ ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! ( talk) 21:20, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
I've checked the Annals of the Four Masters at http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/T100005A/ but can't find any of these names. Am I missing something obvious (because some are well known). -- Red King ( talk) 14:20, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
I've no real problem with the current name, except that mythological names are included in the article, e.g. Ériu, Fódla, etc, which do not refer to any state in a ny modern sense. Perhaps there could be a split in the article with a new article created at 'Mythological names for Ireland'.
Another issue is that the article deals with the name on an all-Ireland basis, then suddenly from 1921 stops dealing with the north.
Third issue is the 'Irish state' clearly refers to the post-1921 state, not any of the pre-existing states, so the article, if dealing with more than one state (by common usage, the post-1921 one), the title should be pluralised and should also include names of Northern Ireland.
As a proposed solution, there could be a 'Names of Ireland' page giving pre-1921 names, then a split into 'Names of the Irish state' and 'Names of Northern Ireland', similar to what's done with the history articles. - Dalta ( talk) 21:31, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
I'm not sure why we have the article Republic of Ireland (term). The material it covers is fully covered in this article. The title Republic of Ireland (name) redirects here rather than there. Why does that article exist? It looks like a pointless fork to me. -- Red King ( talk) 19:39, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
I've merged everything I though was maybe okay and turned it into a redirect. Dmcq ( talk) 15:46, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
Is it worth making a list of reference books that state that state that "Eire" was the name from 1937 to 1949? The newly published 5th edition of the American Heritage Dictionary can be added to any such list: see Ireland. jnestorius( talk) 18:36, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
Article 4 of the Constitution of Ireland, adopted in 1937, provides that "[t]he name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland". Hence, the Irish state has two official names, Éire (in Irish) and Ireland (in English).
I added the following into the article:
In his 1921 alternative proposal to the Anglo-Irish Treaty, the so-called "Document No. 2", Eamon de Valera was happy to use the name "Ireland" for the five sixths of the island which would form his proposed state. The position he took in terms of state names was subsequently reflected in the contemporary Irish Constitution.
User RashersTierney deleted it on the basis that it was original research and (as I read his comment on my page) not sourced. It was sourced. Document No. 2 is linked to the sentence and Document No. 2 describes the state De Valera envisaged as "Ireland" (not Irish Free State or any other name). I am happy to drop the term "happy" from the sentence in case that suggested he was somehow smiling about the issue or something to that effect. Beyond that, I cannot see how what I have included is objectionable and will add it back in without the "happy" word. Happy to discuss if there is something to discuss. 84.203.65.158 ( talk) 20:14, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
Guys - The below is the full text of de Valera's Document No. 2; I have put in bold some text that I make a few points about further below:
PROPOSED TREATY OF ASSOCIATION BETWEEN IRELAND AND THE BRITISH COMMONWEALTH
In order to bring to an end the long and ruinous conflict between Great Britain and Ireland by a sure and lasting peace honourable to both nations, it is agreed
STATUS OF IRELAND
(1) That the legislative, executive, and judicial authority of Ireland shall be derived solely from the people of Ireland.
TERMS OF ASSOCIATION
(2) That, for purposes of common concern, Ireland shall be associated with the States of the British Commonwealth, viz.: the Kingdom of Great Britain, the Dominion of Canada, the Commonwealth of Australia, the Dominion of New Zealand, and the Union of South Africa. (3) That when acting as an associate the rights, status, and privileges of Ireland shall be in no respect less than those enjoyed by any of the component States of the British Commonwealth. (4) That the matters of "common concern" shall include Defence, Peace and War, Political Treaties, and all matters now treated as of common concern among the States of the British Commonwealth, and that in these matters there shall be between Ireland and the States of the British Commonwealth "such concerted action founded on consultation as the several Governments may determine." (5) That in virtue of this association of Ireland with the States of the British Commonwealth citizens of Ireland in any of these States shall not be subject to any disabilities which a citizen of one of the component States of the British Commonwealth would no be subject to, and reciprocally for citizens of these States in Ireland. (6) That for purposes of the Association, Ireland shall recognize His Britannic Majesty as head of the Association.DEFENCE
(7) That, so far as her resources permit, Ireland shall provide for her own defence by sea, land, and air, and shall repel by force any attempt by a foreign Power to violate the integrity of her soil and territorial waters, or to use them for any purpose hostile to Great Britain and the other associated States. (8) That for five years, pending the establishment of Irish coastal defence forces, or for such other period as the Governments of the two countries may later agree upon, facilities for the coastal defence of Ireland shall be given to the British Government as follows (a) In time of peace such harbour and other facilities as are indicated in the Annex hereto or such other facilities as may from time to time be agreed upon between the British Government and the Government of Ireland. (b) In time of war such harbour and other naval facilities as the British government may reasonably require for the purposes of such defence as aforesaid. (9) That within five years from the date of exchange of ratifications of this Treaty a conference shall be held in order to hand over the coastal defence of Ireland to the Irish Government, unless some other arrangement for naval defense be agreed by both Governments to be desirable in the common interest of Ireland, Great Britain and the other associated States. (10) That, in order to cooperate in furthering the principle of international limitation of armaments, the Government of Ireland shall not (a) Build submarines unless by agreement with Great Britain and the other States of the Commonwealth. (b) Maintain a military defence force, the establishments whereof exceed in size such proportion of the military establishments maintained in Great Britain as that which the population of Ireland bears to the population of Great Britain.MISCELLANEOUS
(11) That the Governments of Great Britain and of Ireland shall make a convention for the regulation of civil communication by air. (12) That the ports of Great Britain and of Ireland shall be freely open to the ships of each country on payment of the customary port and other dues. (13) That Ireland shall assume liability for such share of the present public debt of Great Britain and Ireland and of the payment of war pensions as existing at this date as may be fair and equitable, having regard to any just claims on the part of Ireland by way of set-off or counter-claim, the amount of such sums being determined, in default of agreement, by the arbitration of one or more independent persons being citizens of Ireland or of the British Commonwealth. (14) That the Government of Ireland agrees to pay compensation on terms not less favourable than those proposed by the British Government of Ireland Act of 1920 to that Government's judges, officials, members of Police Forces and other Public Servants who are discharged by the Government of Ireland or who retire in consequence of the change of Government effected in pursuance hereof. Provided that this agreement shall not apply to members of the Auxiliary Police Forces or to persons recruited in Great Britain for the Royal Irish Constabulary during the two years next preceding the date hereof. The British Government will assume responsibility for such payments to any of these excepted persons. (15) That neither the Parliament of Ireland nor any subordinate legislature in Ireland shall make any law so as either directly or indirectly to endow any religion, or prohibit or restrict the free exercise thereof or give any preference or impose any disability on account of religious belief or religious status, or affect prejudicially the right of any child to attend a school receiving public money without attending the religious instruction at the school, or make any discrimination as respects State aid between schools under the management of different religious denominations, or divert from any religious denomination or any educational institution any of its property except for public utility purposes and on payment of compensation.TRANSITIONAL
(16) That by way of transitional arrangement for the administration of Ireland during the interval which must elapse between the date hereof and the setting up of a Parliament and Government of Ireland in accordance herewith, the members elected for constituencies in Ireland since the passing of the Government of Ireland Act of 1920 shall, at a meeting summoned for the purpose, elect a transitional Government, to which the British Government and Dail Eireann shall transfer the authority, powers, and machinery requisite for the discharge of such transitional Government shall have signified in writing his or her acceptance of this instrument. But his arrangement shall not continue in force beyond the expiration of twelve months from the date hereof.
RATIFICATION
(17) That this instrument shall be submitted for ratification forthwith by His Britannic Majesty's Government to the Parliament at Westminster, and by the Cabinet of Dail Eireann to a meeting of the members elected for the constituencies in Ireland set forth in the British Government of Ireland Act, 1920, and when ratifications have been exchanged shall take immediate effect.
ANNEX
(1) The following are the specific facilities referred to in Article 8a:
Dockyard Port at Berehaven
(a) British Admiralty property and rights to be retained as at the date hereof. Harbour defences to remain in charge of British care and maintenance parties.
Queenstown
(b) Harbour defences to remain in charge of British care and maintenance parties. Certain mooring buoys to be retained for use of His Britannic Majesty's ships.
Belfast Lough
(c) Harbour defences to remain in charge of British care and maintenance parties.
Lough Swilly
(d) Harbour defences to remain in charge of British care and maintenance parties.
Aviation
(e) Facilities the neighbourhood of the above Ports for coastal and defence by air.
Oil Fuel Storage
(f) Haulbowline and Rathmillen: to be offered for sale to commercial companies under guarantee that purchasers shall maintain a certain minimum stock for British Admiralty purposes.
(2) A Convention covering a period of five years shall be made between the British and Irish Governments to give effect to the following conditions:
(a) That submarine cables shall not be landed or wireless stations for communications with places outside Ireland be established except be agreement with the British Government; that the existing cable landing rights and wireless concessions shall not be withdrawn except by agreement with the British Government; and that the British Government shall be entitled to land additional submarine cables or establish additional wireless stations for communication with places outside Ireland.
(b) That lighthouses, buoys, beacons, and any navigational marks or navigational aids shall be maintained by the Government of Ireland as at the date hereof and shall not be removed or added to except by agreement with the British Government.
(c) That war signal stations shall be closed down and left in charge of care and maintenance parties, the Government of Ireland being offered the option of taking them over and working them for commercial purposes subject to British Admiralty inspection and guaranteeing the upkeep of existing telegraphic communication therewith.
ADDENDUM
North-East Ulster
Resolved:
That, whilst refusing to admit the right of any part of Ireland to be excluded from the supreme authority of the Parliament of Ireland, or that the relations between the Parliament of Ireland and any subordinate Legislature in Ireland can be a matter for treaty with a government outside Ireland, nevertheless, in sincere regard for internal peace, and in order to make manifest our desire not to bring force or coercion to bear upon any substantial part of the province of Ulster, whose inhabitants may now be unwilling to accept the national authority, we are prepared to grant to that portion of Ulster which is defined as Northern Ireland in the British Government of Ireland Act of 1920, privileges and safeguards not less substantial than those provided for in the Articles of Agreement for a Treaty between Great Britain and Ireland signed in London on December 6th, 1921.
COMMENTS (1) The highlighted bold text is the key text with regard to Northern Ireland. De Valera accepted what had been agreed with respect to NI in the Anglo Irish Treaty (i.e. that Northern Ireland would have the right to opt out of the new state which is what it did shortly after the Irish Free State was established). Therefore, de Valera envisaged that the new state "Ireland" would sit along-side the UK region, "Northern Ireland". This is not OR, it is in Document No. 2. (2)HighKing - with due respect, you need to read the Anglo Irish Treaty. It also refers to Belfast harbour etc in identical terms. Yet the Anglo Irish Treaty (just as Dev's Doc. No. 2) envisaged that Northern Ireland could, if it so chose, continue on as part of the UK. The harbours were referred to because the Treaty also contemplated what would happen if NI decided it was happy to be part of the Irish Free State. De Valera's treatment of Belfast Lough is identical to that of the Anglo-Irish Treaty. 84.203.65.158 ( talk) 12:06, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
In his 1921 alternative proposal to the Anglo-Irish Treaty, the so-called "Document No. 2", Eamon de Valera proposed the name "Ireland" for the new Irish state which would exist alongside Northern Ireland which could remain part of the UK.
RashersTierney: I feel the other two are not editors who I can reach. No point in speculating on the reasons why. For whatever it's worth (perhaps only my curiousity), I ask you do you disagree with either of the following: (1) Dev envisaged "Ireland" as the name for the state and (2) Dev envisaged that even if the people in Northern Ireland decided to not remain in the new state named "Ireland", the new state would continue to have the name "Ireland". 84.203.65.158 ( talk) 01:35, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
Here is a source which back up my interpretation of the NI addendum in Document No. 2 (i.e. that the addendum clearly accepted that NI would not be coerced into a united Ireland and would be allowed to continue on as part of the UK, in short that it was a “partitionist” settlement proposal): [44] “Collins challenged de Valera to suggest an alternative, and the Long Fellow introduced Document No 2, which contained all of the partition clauses of the treaty. Partition really had nothing to do with the controversy. [Irish Examiner article] There are of course other sources out there. 84.203.65.158 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 10:45, 15 December 2011 (UTC).
Guys - the text of Document No. 2 is very clear: it uses the name "Ireland" for the new state and it includes provision for Northern Ireland to opt out of the new state. There is no "interpretation here". It is not ambiguous or unclear. It is there in plain English in Document No. 2. I wanted to add in a sentence saying:
In his 1921 alternative proposal to the Anglo-Irish Treaty, the so-called "Document No. 2", Eamon de Valera proposed the name "Ireland" for the new Irish state which would exist alongside Northern Ireland which could remain part of the UK.
You are refusing to allow inclusion of this. Your decision not to give reasons shows the weakness of your position. Sad day for WP when editors take such positions. I can only guess it must be some kind of power trip. As for this being OR, most of the article is OR (in the sense of it is not picked up from articles dealing with the State's name - there are pretty few out there). If that is your standard, you need to delete most of the article. That would be a pity. 86.42.190.57 ( talk) 07:45, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
Editor Asarlaí has re-written the lede of the article. No discussion of this was undertaken. I personally don’t like the old lede (or Editor Asarlaí’s). I welcome the chance to discuss it, try to reach a consensus and then have a better lede. I have reverted Editor Asarlaí’s lede as until there is consensus for change, we have to stick with what we have. Again, I would like to discuss changes and improve the article. Below I describe some problems with Editor’s proposal:
Thanks. Frenchmalawi ( talk) 01:30, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
The Manual of Style says that the lede should be able to "stand alone as a concise overview of the article". The former lede didn't do this. It merely gave the state's current name and description and explained that the UK formerly objected to that name. I thus re-worked it so that it better summarized the article.
Thanks for bringing your objections to the talkpage Frenchmalawi, and for making your points so clearly. I'll deal with them in the same order you made them.
In the article it seems to include the Kingdom of Ireland and the Lordship of Ireland also. If the term does include those states, then we could go back to the old wording "there have been various names of the Irish state".
If the term only includes the current state, then we could re-word it like this: "A number of names, official and unofficial, have been used for the current Irish state".
~Asarlaí 17:36, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
AlwynJPie appears intent on re-writing the lede from the perspective of Southern Ireland. For example, he/she is repeatedly changing, "There have been various names for the state that is today officially known as Ireland..." to "There have been various names for Southern Ireland...".
Under mainstream views, Southern Ireland was for all-intents-and-purposes a legal fiction. It never passed an act. Its parliament met only once. Only four members showed up.
Better to frame the article from the perspective of the current state, which is well-established, rather than historical curios. We can then work backwards to Southern Ireland, which is notable enough for the subject of this article. -- Tóraí ( talk) 08:54, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
I see no mention of the Provisional Government of Ireland (1922) in the article. Surely this omission, even though short lived, should be corrected. ww2censor ( talk) 10:05, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
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Google is using "Republic Of Ireland" as the name of the country in its Google News website. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.209.180.229 ( talk) 00:39, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
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Where is there evidence for this statement? Ériugena ( talk) 20:28, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
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You only have to look at Google News pretty much any day of the week! -- Red King 12:37, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
Fair enough. Gaeilgeoirs in so many English papers, who would have thought?
Lapsed Pacifist 12:55, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
I have to agree somewhat with LP on this one, their is approx 135 instances of "Eire" in Google News, 15 are of these are "Eire Og" (Google does not appear to respect the " fada"), additionally their are 2,280 instances of "Republic of Ireland", 38,000 of Ireland, 584 of "Irish Republic" - some of these stories are of historical nature and this should be taken into account. Using Eire for the Republic of Ireland football team is pure idleness, moreover my honest belief is that "Eire" is often used purely out of incompetence, if not sectarianism. Theirfore I would be reserved in my use of Eire. Djegan 19:39, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
For an informal merger discussion see Wikipedia_talk:Irish_Wikipedians'_notice_board#Names_of_Ireland.
Djegan 20:03, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
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Image:Cropped euro coin.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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I am unhappy with this edit [1]. The preamble to the 1937 Irish Constitution in English says "We, the people of Éire," rather than "We, the people of Ireland," where the Irish starts "Ar mbeith dúinne, muintir na hÉireann,". [2] [3] This should be mentioned as it points to Éire being an acceptable word in English. In addition, another point is that Article 4 says "Éire is ainm don Stát nó, sa Sacs-Bhéarla, Ireland" in Irish and "The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland" in English (with italics as in the original) rather than the more natural "The name of the State is Ireland, or, in the Irish language, Éire", and so fails explicitly to present Éire as being an exclusively Irish usage. -- Rumping ( talk) 23:41, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Article 9
1. 1° On the coming into operation of this Constitution any person who was a citizen of Saorstát Éireann immediately before the coming into operation of this Constitution shall become and be a citizen of Ireland.
The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland
So the name of the state is "Ireland" in the English language but "Éire" in every other language ? 2.127.208.169 ( talk) 00:20, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
This should be Republic of Ireland (name) or something similar as thats what it deals with -- Republic of Ireland. Djegan ( talk) 17:46, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
Yes - I've fixed that. Things are now back to the status quo ante (12 August). Complaints over the ill-advised "toponymy" move spree go to User talk:Neelix please. -- dab (𒁳) 15:07, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
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Originally, the last section covered colloquial terms used by Irish people for their country - that is, what they actually call themselves in real life. This was a very important section, because it emphasised that the naming controversy discussed above is largely irrelevant to ordinary Irish people. Now someone has inserted a lot of quotes from the style guides of British newspapers. How are these relevant to this important section? Michael of Lucan ( talk) 10:16, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
Of the following group of entries, only the first is a reasonable contender for the title "Ireland":
The island has formerly been subject to a number of political arrangements (arranged in reverse chronological order):
The rest of them are aspects of
Ireland (the island) that are appropriate to find via the
Ireland article, the accompanying article
Names of the Irish state, or perhaps something along the lines of
List of Irish states,
Succession of sovereignties in Ireland, or possibilities i probably still wouldn't blunder onto if i kept listing possibilities.
I've moved those entries to this talk page rather than just discarding them where they don't belong, in the hope that the work of compiling them will not be wasted if the accompanying article (which is now a see-also entry on the Dab'n page for "Ireland") doesn't leave them redundant, and to draw attention to the possibility that there are roles, valid for WP but which were misplaced onto the Dab page, that should be provided for on new or existing pages.
--
Jerzy•
t 07:55, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
Is the football team and the passport not notable? funny, I thought the football was one of the best in the world and the passport was one of the most unique in the world. Silly me that must be crap I don't understand. ~ R. T. G 14:33, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
(moved from my Talk page)
Do not remove well sourced and relevent info such as related to the national football team and the Irish passport being unrestricted over the island
[4]
[5]. What are you doing? If the passport bearing the states name goes outside the bounds of other legislation bearing the states name, that is not for you removing. If the football team is commonly refered to as either name, that is not for removing. If you want to discuss that do so on the talk page
Talk:Names of the Irish state thanks. ~
R.
T.
G 14:29, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
@Highking, I said that what you did was crappy (wasteful) and I didn't understand. I shouldn't like to point such clear language out as it can be construed incivil when stressed, can it not? You understand perfectly, do you not, the edits cited were rubbishing the info? Well, the football team, the passport, and the island, they are important stuffs, older and more respected than you or I. Alter by all means (and cite the passport why don't you? I suspect it is not within your interest perhaps?). The team is a state institution. I am sorry if you think that is final. I assure you, I do not get the scent from you, like. Oh I mean, don't worry, it is unlikely you will gather my interest again is it? Yeah sure, I will note your preferences, now in a minute, thanks for the personal notes. ~ R. T. G 16:13, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
Hi, you recently reverted an edit where I reverted a user trying to insert the following into an article: The state's national football team, while often referred to (including by itself) as "Ireland", officially plays as the "Republic of Ireland" because Northern Ireland also fields a team in international competitions and in 1954 FIFA was no longer prepared to tolerate two teams called "Ireland". Can you help me understand why you believe that this is relevant in the article? It appears in the "official description" section, but it has nothing to do with the official description. Is there some dispute over the description and you're using the football team as an example of something? Thank you. -- HighKing ( talk) 15:56, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
Sigh. Moving on...: We currently have 3 sections: Official name; Official description; European Union. The UN is mentioned in the "official name" section since the UN calls the state by its official name; FIFA is mentioned in the "official description" section since FIFA calls the state's team by the state's official description. The EU is separate because it's more complex. IMO, HighKing's concerns can be addressed and the article improved by removing the UN and FIFA mentions into an expanded EU section renamed something like "International practice", explaining how various international organisations currently and previously refer to the state.Other titbits for this section would be the following, which I can't yet source:
Some of this overlapped with Irish bodies claiming 32-county jurisdiction. I'm also unhappy that calling the state "Eire" is being presented as a purely British practice. I've seen "Eire" described in French and German reference books as the former name for the Republic of Ireland. Feel free to prove the Brits spread that canard. jnestorius( talk) 01:24, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
I don't really think the Belfast Agreement actually resolved anything on the name of the Irish state. It talked about the Government of Ireland and the Constitution of Ireland, a body and a document, but it did not seem to use a name for the state or the geographical area which is that part of the island of Ireland which is not Northern Ireland. By contrast, Northern Ireland was mentioned frequently and United Kingdom occasionally. A star to anyone who can find something better at [8] which is clearer and more explicit than either South as in "North and South", or the like area and extent of application as the laws enacted by the Parliament that existed immediately before the coming into operation of this Constitution meaning the territory of the pre-1937 Irish Free State. -- Rumping ( talk) 15:31, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
There has never been a the Irish state. There is of course one today that may be seen as "The State Ireland" (close but not the whole biscuit). ~ R. T. G 18:51, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
Ultimately it should be Names of Ireland (preferred) or Names of the Republic of Ireland. No Names of Ireland (state) nonsense. Djegan ( talk) 13:53, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
Right, to discuss the naming of the Ireland article visit this place where all of my views are set out. I am just going to ask here, if nobody manages to use the word Irish in this debate except me and the articles title, are we politically biased? and, Anybody discussing a move from singular to plural? ~ R. T. G 13:36, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
It seems that the Irish Government often uses "Republic of Ireland", usually when it wishes to distinguish Northern Ireland, though not always even in that case. A wide variety of examples from different departments include [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17]. A Google search of the phrase "Ireland and Northern Ireland" turn up a variety of pages, [18] some of which use "Republic of" and other which do not - there does not seem to be a pattern of when it is used and when not, except when some other word can be used such as "Fáilte Ireland and Northern Ireland Tourist Board". It also seems that international agreements in the second half of 1949 and the first half of 1950 were signed by the "Government of the Republic of Ireland". [19] [20] I would guess that a decision was then made to return to "Government of Ireland".-- Rumping ( talk) 00:30, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
~ R. T. G 15:03, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
What does "Explicitly recognise" mean, in the context of this passage? :-
To my mind, discussing a document by quoting words used in it does not amount to endorsing it. jnestorius( talk) 01:48, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
OK, for clarity and to keep things as simple as I can, I reproduce here the few sentences we are discussing and add in what I can to clarify things for you:
The statement in Article 4 "The name of the state is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland" giving the state the names of the island in both Irish and English was another anti-partitionist attempt to lay claim to the whole of the island.[Not disputed by you I think] In response to the new constitution, the British government published a communiqué on 30 December 1937, the day after the constitution took effect.[Not disputed by you I think] In the communiqué, the British government recognised that the new constitution gave the Irish state two names Ireland or Éire.[Do you dispute this? If you do - I do not know why, here are a few words from the UK Gov. communique below...in future to be described under the Constitution as 'Eire' [sic] or 'Ireland ]' It also implicitly recognised that the two names had an identical meaning, [You appear to think this is controversial - I do not know why you think that - For starters, have a look at this: [43] and in particular paragraph 3 and 4 of that Canadian Government Circular - which says, inter alia, "The United Kingdom Government, in a statement published on December 30, 1937, recognized implicitly the identical meaning of the names "Ireland" and "Eire""] by declaring:
"His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom has considered the position created by the new Constitution ... of the Irish Free State, in future to be described under the Constitution as 'Eire' [sic] or 'Ireland' ... [and] cannot recognize that the adoption of the name 'Eire' or 'Ireland', or any other provision of those articles [of the Irish constitution], involves any right to territory ... forming part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland ... They therefore regard the use of the name 'Eire' or 'Ireland' in this connection as relating only to that area which has hitherto been known as the Irish Free State."
After this initial response, the British government quickly decided to refer to the state only as "Eire" and not Ireland. The British government finessed Article 4 and ignored Articles 2 and 3: if the Irish constitution said the name of the state in the national language was Éire, then that (written as "Eire") was what the British government would call it. By doing so, it avoided any need to call the Irish state, in the English language, Ireland. The change of name effected by the 1937 constitution (but not the other constitutional changes), was given effect in United Kingdom law in the Eire (Confirmation of Agreements) Act 1938. Under Section 1 of that Act, it was declared that (for the purposes of United Kingdom legislation) the territory "which was ... known as Irish Free State shall be styled as ... Eire". [OK - Hope, this clarifies things. Re the Guardian headline, I think you'll agree, sticking a headline into the article did not work. Regards. Redking7 ( talk) 20:54, 23 April 2009 (UTC)]
I'm not very comfortable with the presentation of the discrepancy between the correct "Éire" and the foreign use of "Eire". While the latter is undoubtedly incorrect, we must avoid suggesting it is egregiously ignorant, still less a calculated snub. There is no evidence that either is the case. Consider the following points:
I'm unsure what kind of rephrasing might be done, or what sources might be cited. jnestorius( talk) 20:40, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
"Éire" is a different word than "Éireann" ... right?
So if Éire is Ireland in English, then is Éireann ... what?
ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! ( talk) 03:38, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
Hello Angr.
The Kingdom of France (c. 843-1789), and the Kingdom of the French (1791-1792) were two different countries. The series of Names of the French Kingdom, the Kingdom of France, and the Kingdom of the French in the French Language are analogous to the series of Names of the Irish Republic, the Republic of Ireland, and the Republic of the Irish in the English Language.
Now, Saorstát Éireann has a literal translation of Irish Free State,
So what would be the literal translation of Saorstát na hÉireann ... ?
ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! ( talk) 11:11, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
Ah ha!!!!
Thank you.
Éireannach is Irish, and Éireann is Ireland.
ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! ( talk) 11:48, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
User One Night In Hackney has made POV edits (POV as they are not backed up by any sources but are clearly divisive in intent), being:
This is, I am afraid, bad faith editing. No point mincing words. 84.203.65.224 ( talk) 00:16, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
I take no position on whether the previous version was correct. However as is obvious to anyone who is paying attention, the IP editor is known disruptive indef blocked editor Redking7 ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) evading his block and he will be reverted and blocked on sight. 2 lines of K 303 14:14, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
I have reverted a huge (500+ chars) reversion by User:OneNightinHackney going back many edits. This threw the baby out with the bath water. However the rights and wrongs of its origins, the article had improved significantly as a result. The text matched the legal and constitutional reality: ONiH's version does not do that. It is completely contrary to the consensus rules to make such a major edit without prior discussion. It does not matter that the change was initiated by a subsequently banned editor: a number of other editors had worked on it since. Before you revert it again, please discuss it here. Which words do you not like and what is your basis for doing so. -- Red King ( talk) 18:50, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
I note that in recent Edits (over the past few months or less), the opening sentence has been changed for POV reasons. It should read simply as follows (as it did for a long time previuosly):
"The state whose name is Ireland ( Irish: Éire) is and has been known by a number of other names, some of which have been controversial."
This article is about the name of the State. Not other things like its description etc. 84.203.65.224 ( talk) 00:20, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
I don't understand the terms "conventional short form name" and "conventional long form name" (well ok I think I do because I speak Wikpedish, but I don't believe that the man on the Hackney omnibus would). What does the word 'conventional' mean? Is the same as
common name?
Let's take the French Republic and the Italian Republic (their respective constitional names). Does 'conventional' mean that they are most often known as France and Italy respectively [and incorrectly: geographic France contains Monaco and the Channel Islands, it does not contain the Overseas Départements; geographic Italy contains San Marino, the Vatican and (arguably) Corsica]. In the case of Ireland, the 'common name' and the 'constitutional name' are both the same, Ireland. [except in the UK, when jounalists use Eire (sic), the Irish Republic (sic!), Southern Ireland (sic), or the Republic of Ireland - and ordinary people just say 'Ireland']. Or are we talking about the UK case where the legal form is "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland' and the common names are UK and Britain? The former (UKoGB&NI) is not a 'conventional' long form, it is the full legal title. The other two are what I would call
common names.
So can we change 'conventional long form' to 'constitutional name' and and 'conventional short name' to
common name? --
Red King (
talk) 15:29, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
The Czech State has the long-form Name of the Czech Republic, and the short-form Name of Czechia. Google Search: http://www.google.ca/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=0&oq=Czechia&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4SUNA_en___CA321&q=Czechia Czechia Website: http://www.czechia.org/ ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! ( talk) 21:20, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
I've checked the Annals of the Four Masters at http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/T100005A/ but can't find any of these names. Am I missing something obvious (because some are well known). -- Red King ( talk) 14:20, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
I've no real problem with the current name, except that mythological names are included in the article, e.g. Ériu, Fódla, etc, which do not refer to any state in a ny modern sense. Perhaps there could be a split in the article with a new article created at 'Mythological names for Ireland'.
Another issue is that the article deals with the name on an all-Ireland basis, then suddenly from 1921 stops dealing with the north.
Third issue is the 'Irish state' clearly refers to the post-1921 state, not any of the pre-existing states, so the article, if dealing with more than one state (by common usage, the post-1921 one), the title should be pluralised and should also include names of Northern Ireland.
As a proposed solution, there could be a 'Names of Ireland' page giving pre-1921 names, then a split into 'Names of the Irish state' and 'Names of Northern Ireland', similar to what's done with the history articles. - Dalta ( talk) 21:31, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
I'm not sure why we have the article Republic of Ireland (term). The material it covers is fully covered in this article. The title Republic of Ireland (name) redirects here rather than there. Why does that article exist? It looks like a pointless fork to me. -- Red King ( talk) 19:39, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
I've merged everything I though was maybe okay and turned it into a redirect. Dmcq ( talk) 15:46, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
Is it worth making a list of reference books that state that state that "Eire" was the name from 1937 to 1949? The newly published 5th edition of the American Heritage Dictionary can be added to any such list: see Ireland. jnestorius( talk) 18:36, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
Article 4 of the Constitution of Ireland, adopted in 1937, provides that "[t]he name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland". Hence, the Irish state has two official names, Éire (in Irish) and Ireland (in English).
I added the following into the article:
In his 1921 alternative proposal to the Anglo-Irish Treaty, the so-called "Document No. 2", Eamon de Valera was happy to use the name "Ireland" for the five sixths of the island which would form his proposed state. The position he took in terms of state names was subsequently reflected in the contemporary Irish Constitution.
User RashersTierney deleted it on the basis that it was original research and (as I read his comment on my page) not sourced. It was sourced. Document No. 2 is linked to the sentence and Document No. 2 describes the state De Valera envisaged as "Ireland" (not Irish Free State or any other name). I am happy to drop the term "happy" from the sentence in case that suggested he was somehow smiling about the issue or something to that effect. Beyond that, I cannot see how what I have included is objectionable and will add it back in without the "happy" word. Happy to discuss if there is something to discuss. 84.203.65.158 ( talk) 20:14, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
Guys - The below is the full text of de Valera's Document No. 2; I have put in bold some text that I make a few points about further below:
PROPOSED TREATY OF ASSOCIATION BETWEEN IRELAND AND THE BRITISH COMMONWEALTH
In order to bring to an end the long and ruinous conflict between Great Britain and Ireland by a sure and lasting peace honourable to both nations, it is agreed
STATUS OF IRELAND
(1) That the legislative, executive, and judicial authority of Ireland shall be derived solely from the people of Ireland.
TERMS OF ASSOCIATION
(2) That, for purposes of common concern, Ireland shall be associated with the States of the British Commonwealth, viz.: the Kingdom of Great Britain, the Dominion of Canada, the Commonwealth of Australia, the Dominion of New Zealand, and the Union of South Africa. (3) That when acting as an associate the rights, status, and privileges of Ireland shall be in no respect less than those enjoyed by any of the component States of the British Commonwealth. (4) That the matters of "common concern" shall include Defence, Peace and War, Political Treaties, and all matters now treated as of common concern among the States of the British Commonwealth, and that in these matters there shall be between Ireland and the States of the British Commonwealth "such concerted action founded on consultation as the several Governments may determine." (5) That in virtue of this association of Ireland with the States of the British Commonwealth citizens of Ireland in any of these States shall not be subject to any disabilities which a citizen of one of the component States of the British Commonwealth would no be subject to, and reciprocally for citizens of these States in Ireland. (6) That for purposes of the Association, Ireland shall recognize His Britannic Majesty as head of the Association.DEFENCE
(7) That, so far as her resources permit, Ireland shall provide for her own defence by sea, land, and air, and shall repel by force any attempt by a foreign Power to violate the integrity of her soil and territorial waters, or to use them for any purpose hostile to Great Britain and the other associated States. (8) That for five years, pending the establishment of Irish coastal defence forces, or for such other period as the Governments of the two countries may later agree upon, facilities for the coastal defence of Ireland shall be given to the British Government as follows (a) In time of peace such harbour and other facilities as are indicated in the Annex hereto or such other facilities as may from time to time be agreed upon between the British Government and the Government of Ireland. (b) In time of war such harbour and other naval facilities as the British government may reasonably require for the purposes of such defence as aforesaid. (9) That within five years from the date of exchange of ratifications of this Treaty a conference shall be held in order to hand over the coastal defence of Ireland to the Irish Government, unless some other arrangement for naval defense be agreed by both Governments to be desirable in the common interest of Ireland, Great Britain and the other associated States. (10) That, in order to cooperate in furthering the principle of international limitation of armaments, the Government of Ireland shall not (a) Build submarines unless by agreement with Great Britain and the other States of the Commonwealth. (b) Maintain a military defence force, the establishments whereof exceed in size such proportion of the military establishments maintained in Great Britain as that which the population of Ireland bears to the population of Great Britain.MISCELLANEOUS
(11) That the Governments of Great Britain and of Ireland shall make a convention for the regulation of civil communication by air. (12) That the ports of Great Britain and of Ireland shall be freely open to the ships of each country on payment of the customary port and other dues. (13) That Ireland shall assume liability for such share of the present public debt of Great Britain and Ireland and of the payment of war pensions as existing at this date as may be fair and equitable, having regard to any just claims on the part of Ireland by way of set-off or counter-claim, the amount of such sums being determined, in default of agreement, by the arbitration of one or more independent persons being citizens of Ireland or of the British Commonwealth. (14) That the Government of Ireland agrees to pay compensation on terms not less favourable than those proposed by the British Government of Ireland Act of 1920 to that Government's judges, officials, members of Police Forces and other Public Servants who are discharged by the Government of Ireland or who retire in consequence of the change of Government effected in pursuance hereof. Provided that this agreement shall not apply to members of the Auxiliary Police Forces or to persons recruited in Great Britain for the Royal Irish Constabulary during the two years next preceding the date hereof. The British Government will assume responsibility for such payments to any of these excepted persons. (15) That neither the Parliament of Ireland nor any subordinate legislature in Ireland shall make any law so as either directly or indirectly to endow any religion, or prohibit or restrict the free exercise thereof or give any preference or impose any disability on account of religious belief or religious status, or affect prejudicially the right of any child to attend a school receiving public money without attending the religious instruction at the school, or make any discrimination as respects State aid between schools under the management of different religious denominations, or divert from any religious denomination or any educational institution any of its property except for public utility purposes and on payment of compensation.TRANSITIONAL
(16) That by way of transitional arrangement for the administration of Ireland during the interval which must elapse between the date hereof and the setting up of a Parliament and Government of Ireland in accordance herewith, the members elected for constituencies in Ireland since the passing of the Government of Ireland Act of 1920 shall, at a meeting summoned for the purpose, elect a transitional Government, to which the British Government and Dail Eireann shall transfer the authority, powers, and machinery requisite for the discharge of such transitional Government shall have signified in writing his or her acceptance of this instrument. But his arrangement shall not continue in force beyond the expiration of twelve months from the date hereof.
RATIFICATION
(17) That this instrument shall be submitted for ratification forthwith by His Britannic Majesty's Government to the Parliament at Westminster, and by the Cabinet of Dail Eireann to a meeting of the members elected for the constituencies in Ireland set forth in the British Government of Ireland Act, 1920, and when ratifications have been exchanged shall take immediate effect.
ANNEX
(1) The following are the specific facilities referred to in Article 8a:
Dockyard Port at Berehaven
(a) British Admiralty property and rights to be retained as at the date hereof. Harbour defences to remain in charge of British care and maintenance parties.
Queenstown
(b) Harbour defences to remain in charge of British care and maintenance parties. Certain mooring buoys to be retained for use of His Britannic Majesty's ships.
Belfast Lough
(c) Harbour defences to remain in charge of British care and maintenance parties.
Lough Swilly
(d) Harbour defences to remain in charge of British care and maintenance parties.
Aviation
(e) Facilities the neighbourhood of the above Ports for coastal and defence by air.
Oil Fuel Storage
(f) Haulbowline and Rathmillen: to be offered for sale to commercial companies under guarantee that purchasers shall maintain a certain minimum stock for British Admiralty purposes.
(2) A Convention covering a period of five years shall be made between the British and Irish Governments to give effect to the following conditions:
(a) That submarine cables shall not be landed or wireless stations for communications with places outside Ireland be established except be agreement with the British Government; that the existing cable landing rights and wireless concessions shall not be withdrawn except by agreement with the British Government; and that the British Government shall be entitled to land additional submarine cables or establish additional wireless stations for communication with places outside Ireland.
(b) That lighthouses, buoys, beacons, and any navigational marks or navigational aids shall be maintained by the Government of Ireland as at the date hereof and shall not be removed or added to except by agreement with the British Government.
(c) That war signal stations shall be closed down and left in charge of care and maintenance parties, the Government of Ireland being offered the option of taking them over and working them for commercial purposes subject to British Admiralty inspection and guaranteeing the upkeep of existing telegraphic communication therewith.
ADDENDUM
North-East Ulster
Resolved:
That, whilst refusing to admit the right of any part of Ireland to be excluded from the supreme authority of the Parliament of Ireland, or that the relations between the Parliament of Ireland and any subordinate Legislature in Ireland can be a matter for treaty with a government outside Ireland, nevertheless, in sincere regard for internal peace, and in order to make manifest our desire not to bring force or coercion to bear upon any substantial part of the province of Ulster, whose inhabitants may now be unwilling to accept the national authority, we are prepared to grant to that portion of Ulster which is defined as Northern Ireland in the British Government of Ireland Act of 1920, privileges and safeguards not less substantial than those provided for in the Articles of Agreement for a Treaty between Great Britain and Ireland signed in London on December 6th, 1921.
COMMENTS (1) The highlighted bold text is the key text with regard to Northern Ireland. De Valera accepted what had been agreed with respect to NI in the Anglo Irish Treaty (i.e. that Northern Ireland would have the right to opt out of the new state which is what it did shortly after the Irish Free State was established). Therefore, de Valera envisaged that the new state "Ireland" would sit along-side the UK region, "Northern Ireland". This is not OR, it is in Document No. 2. (2)HighKing - with due respect, you need to read the Anglo Irish Treaty. It also refers to Belfast harbour etc in identical terms. Yet the Anglo Irish Treaty (just as Dev's Doc. No. 2) envisaged that Northern Ireland could, if it so chose, continue on as part of the UK. The harbours were referred to because the Treaty also contemplated what would happen if NI decided it was happy to be part of the Irish Free State. De Valera's treatment of Belfast Lough is identical to that of the Anglo-Irish Treaty. 84.203.65.158 ( talk) 12:06, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
In his 1921 alternative proposal to the Anglo-Irish Treaty, the so-called "Document No. 2", Eamon de Valera proposed the name "Ireland" for the new Irish state which would exist alongside Northern Ireland which could remain part of the UK.
RashersTierney: I feel the other two are not editors who I can reach. No point in speculating on the reasons why. For whatever it's worth (perhaps only my curiousity), I ask you do you disagree with either of the following: (1) Dev envisaged "Ireland" as the name for the state and (2) Dev envisaged that even if the people in Northern Ireland decided to not remain in the new state named "Ireland", the new state would continue to have the name "Ireland". 84.203.65.158 ( talk) 01:35, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
Here is a source which back up my interpretation of the NI addendum in Document No. 2 (i.e. that the addendum clearly accepted that NI would not be coerced into a united Ireland and would be allowed to continue on as part of the UK, in short that it was a “partitionist” settlement proposal): [44] “Collins challenged de Valera to suggest an alternative, and the Long Fellow introduced Document No 2, which contained all of the partition clauses of the treaty. Partition really had nothing to do with the controversy. [Irish Examiner article] There are of course other sources out there. 84.203.65.158 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 10:45, 15 December 2011 (UTC).
Guys - the text of Document No. 2 is very clear: it uses the name "Ireland" for the new state and it includes provision for Northern Ireland to opt out of the new state. There is no "interpretation here". It is not ambiguous or unclear. It is there in plain English in Document No. 2. I wanted to add in a sentence saying:
In his 1921 alternative proposal to the Anglo-Irish Treaty, the so-called "Document No. 2", Eamon de Valera proposed the name "Ireland" for the new Irish state which would exist alongside Northern Ireland which could remain part of the UK.
You are refusing to allow inclusion of this. Your decision not to give reasons shows the weakness of your position. Sad day for WP when editors take such positions. I can only guess it must be some kind of power trip. As for this being OR, most of the article is OR (in the sense of it is not picked up from articles dealing with the State's name - there are pretty few out there). If that is your standard, you need to delete most of the article. That would be a pity. 86.42.190.57 ( talk) 07:45, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
Editor Asarlaí has re-written the lede of the article. No discussion of this was undertaken. I personally don’t like the old lede (or Editor Asarlaí’s). I welcome the chance to discuss it, try to reach a consensus and then have a better lede. I have reverted Editor Asarlaí’s lede as until there is consensus for change, we have to stick with what we have. Again, I would like to discuss changes and improve the article. Below I describe some problems with Editor’s proposal:
Thanks. Frenchmalawi ( talk) 01:30, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
The Manual of Style says that the lede should be able to "stand alone as a concise overview of the article". The former lede didn't do this. It merely gave the state's current name and description and explained that the UK formerly objected to that name. I thus re-worked it so that it better summarized the article.
Thanks for bringing your objections to the talkpage Frenchmalawi, and for making your points so clearly. I'll deal with them in the same order you made them.
In the article it seems to include the Kingdom of Ireland and the Lordship of Ireland also. If the term does include those states, then we could go back to the old wording "there have been various names of the Irish state".
If the term only includes the current state, then we could re-word it like this: "A number of names, official and unofficial, have been used for the current Irish state".
~Asarlaí 17:36, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
AlwynJPie appears intent on re-writing the lede from the perspective of Southern Ireland. For example, he/she is repeatedly changing, "There have been various names for the state that is today officially known as Ireland..." to "There have been various names for Southern Ireland...".
Under mainstream views, Southern Ireland was for all-intents-and-purposes a legal fiction. It never passed an act. Its parliament met only once. Only four members showed up.
Better to frame the article from the perspective of the current state, which is well-established, rather than historical curios. We can then work backwards to Southern Ireland, which is notable enough for the subject of this article. -- Tóraí ( talk) 08:54, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
I see no mention of the Provisional Government of Ireland (1922) in the article. Surely this omission, even though short lived, should be corrected. ww2censor ( talk) 10:05, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
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Google is using "Republic Of Ireland" as the name of the country in its Google News website. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.209.180.229 ( talk) 00:39, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
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Where is there evidence for this statement? Ériugena ( talk) 20:28, 27 January 2021 (UTC)