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![]() | Namassej Samaj Andolon was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 19 February 2012 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Namasudra. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
![]() | The use of the contentious topics procedure has been authorised by the community for pages related to South Asian social groups, including this page. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be sanctioned. |
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Some commentators trying promote Four Varna Hindu Apartheid Of Ved, Gita, etc through this article and promoting the apartheid terms like "Chandala" and "Sudra". Some Upper Varna Hindus( or Upper Caste) spreads the lie that sudra is not pejorative and these caste includes also those avoid using past "sudra tags" ; the hard truth is " Sudra means unconditional serving varna(class of Hindu Religion as per Manusmiriti, Rikved-10th, Gita and all later scriptures) and this means servants from heaven and by birth
'madhukshoronti sindhobee'; the truth is these are those of 'everything written in this land' and they promote as religion or Hinduism, and then say, 'I do not know what Hinduism is' or 'Hinduism is everything' but the truth is 'in their heart they believe in Gita , the 'maoya krityong..' the foundation of Hindu Apartheid.' Read Ambedkaar , everything will be clear as day light.
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Hey Sitush, I couldn't understand why you have removed the sourced content, which is another opinion regarding the origin / anthropometry / proximity to other to other groups of people, and is relevant in the context, and was incorporated keeping WP:NPOV in mind. Sources are cited along with url in order to ensure easy verifiablity; that doesn't mean snippet views are not acceptable. Also, you had mentioned in the past in some discussions that even if an online link is not available but the source is verifiable, then the same may also be used as a source. Thanks. Ekdalian ( talk) 06:09, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
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Hi, I see that the Namasudra wikipedia page is more of a stub than a well laid out wiki page. It seems that the official wikipedia of Bangladesh, Banglapedia has a more accurate and informative post about Namasudras. I will give the link here, http://en.banglapedia.org/index.php?title=Namasudras . It seems one moderator, Sitush has asked about the citations and sourcing of mythology and other folklore about Namasudras. I would like to inform him that caste is an extremely complex and confusing subject in India and the world. It is very difficult to get any reliable information about any caste in India as it a loaded topic and prone to both positive and negative bias. However the Banglapedia website does mention about Vallalcharita(ie about Ballal Sen`s rule) which can be taken as a semi reliable source of mythology. Having said that I would mention that even ancient Indian texts are prone to deceitful manipulation by casteist,racist and Brahmanical writers.
Also I would like to add that very little has been mentioned about Namasudras and their role in British colonial governments and post colonial independent Indian govts of Bengal(eg Jogendranath Mondal,Kanti Biswas etc). This information can be added here from the Banglapedia article. Also certain terms like Chandal/avarna which are slurs should be avoided. Their use in pre colonial Indian parlance is debated and may have been largely confined to orthodox Brahminical texts. It is equivalent to the N-word used for black people and many Indian historians doubt if they were ever in verbal use. Obviously modern India no longer recognises those terms. AFAIK the chandals of vedas and the Namasudras are not the same. There are other points the article fails to mention like their post independence(post 1947 and 1970) exodus from Bangladesh to India,mainly to S 24 Paraganas,Bongaon and Nadia district of West Bengal.The Matua movement based in Sri Orakandi region of Bangladesh and CS Mead`s contributions should also be touched upon.
I humbly hope the moderators,namely Sitush and Ekdalian take note of my suggestions and see that there is meaningful and non controversial addition to this article. I commend them for their work and I would be ever grateful to contribute here if they require me to do so.
Namasudras at [1]
Pratik Maitra ( talk) 18:06, 13 September 2018 (UTC)Pratik Maitra
Edit: Just wanted to add that I finally created an account so as to ease the process of communication.
I used to believe Banglapedia being an official wikipedia would contain little OR as they claim to be verified by over 1450 scholars(their own website claims so). Glad to know it is not so.
As for my own contribution I can only chip in what I know of their political leaders like Kanti Biswas,the former education minister of West Bengal under the Communist Regime. Also I have already mentioned about Jogendranath Mandal,the first law minister of Pakistan.
Kanti Biswas at https://cpim.org/pressbriefs/cpim-condoles-death-comrade-kanti-biswas and again http://indianculturalforum.in/2017/06/17/confessions-of-a-namasudra-communist/ and finally https://www.indiatoday.in/pti-feed/story/cpim-leader-kanti-biswas-passes-away-597539-2016-04-28 .
As for sourcing I only have newspapers and other reports. The thing is written knowledge was not much in vogue in ancient/medieval and even present India unlike the West where there were multiple sources recording a single event. Most of what we know of Indian history was from sources/authors who recorded events in a mythological/fan fiction manner decades if not centuries later after the original event. Indian history/mythology was passed down orally even in the medieval ages. So it is prone to great bias and myth making. As a result I hardly have reliable sources. However Shekar Bandopadhyay`s work on Namasudras is a very well written and probably the most reliable source on the community. He is a NZ historian of Indian origin and I believe a great deal of information can be extracted from his book on this caste. ( Caste, Protest and Identity in Colonial India: The Namasudras of Bengal,1872-1947)
(Source: https://www.amazon.in/Caste-Protest-Identity-Colonial-India/dp/0198075960 )
As for the community`s own writings they have their own folklore and origin myths based on the Matua sect/religion they follow. The main corpus of the Matua sect/religion is probably the Harichad Lilamrita,ie the tellings or teachings of their prophet Sri Harichad Thakur whom Namasudras revere as the 10th reincarnation of Sri Vishnu. It is probably from that mythological book the members of the community claim their Brahmanic status and descent from Namas rishi. Finding a different sect was their way of Sanskritisation.
For a more realistic and modern writing I would suggest the famed Dalit writer of WB, Manoranjan Byapari(a self proclaimed Namasudra) and his part autobiographical work Ittibrite Chandal Jiban or its English avatar, Interrogating My Chandal Life: An Autobiography of a Dalit,(which has now been translated to English.I recently bought an English copy of it from Amazon and its also avaialable on Kindle.)
(About the author : https://www.thehindu.com/society/i-write-because-i-cant-kill-an-interview-with-manoranjan-byapari/article23926466.ece )
There is also considerable political manoeuvering with the community as they had generally formed a large voting block in erswhile Bengal province and now in WB.
(Source: https://www.telegraphindia.com/1101229/jsp/bengal/story_13364470.jsp)
Edit: I think I messed up my para spacing and other things while editing this reply. I am relatively new and anyone feel free to correct my para spacing.
Pratik Maitra ( talk) 23:52, 18 September 2018 (UTC)Pratik Maitra — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pratik Maitra ( talk • contribs) 23:30, 18 September 2018 (UTC)
http://125.22.40.134:8082/jspui/bitstream/123456789/2420/1/Bandhopadhyay%2c%20CASTE%20PROTEST%20AND%20IDENTITY%20COLONIAL%20INDIA%20%28210-237%29.pdf-See. ∯WBG converse 08:26, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
This matter has not been mentioned at all. It was the Church which first evoked the sense of self-dignity. And it eas Rev C.S. Mead who was the man behind every communication with British India Govt Officials otherwise this community would have also been like the others. Their folk mythology has also not been mentioned at all. Their identity movement has been completely ignored in the article. Of course, it has been mentioned it was not a community of Four-Varnas or Chaturvarna. But the category has not been corrected. This is not a "Sudra" community but this information has been ignored. The Vyavastha is an important document but ignored. It played a great role in the name change. These things should be incorporated. 117.194.195.157 ( talk) 18:52, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
Regarding Vyvastha which was submitted with the Representation of 'Name Change in Census Documents' to the Then British India Govt Officials may be found in this Ph.D. Thesis. He is an Associate Professor of History, WBES (may directly communicate with him) and most probably a scholar of Prof Hiteshranjan Sannyal. The Vyavastha includes a Note of Dissent in respect of the "Sudra" tag and also mentions this is 'for the time being'. This document has not been mentioned by Prof Sekhar Banerjee and that interprets that the community wanted to be tagged as "Sudra" and still in one place he has mentioned the community was unhappy for being mentioned as "Hindu" in 1941!! Actually now the Wikipedia page has the time started from '1840', what about the past, no RS?? The Book "Biswas, Ratan Kumar (2010). Namasudra Movements In Bengal (1872-1947). Progressive Book Forum. p. 158-160. ISBN 978-81-88006-19-9." 117.227.113.8 ( talk) 09:59, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
Straight cut copying of < https://books.google.co.in/books?id=MHEMAQAAMAAJ&q=namasudra&dq=namasudra&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjas8vpycHdAhVIsI8KHe2WBDo4ChDoAQgwMAI>, the views of Herbert Hope Risley, whose racial theories have been discredited and are fringe-y stuff.... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.194.201.216 ( talk) 12:22, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
I may mention many quotations from Sekhar Banerjee. And I shall. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.194.201.216 ( talk) 12:24, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
Further there is Book , which mentions the Name as "Namassej Namo" and this name "Namo" was mentioned by Risely far back in 1891 which seems to be the only one both containgin there Mythology and baring the Bashing Apartheid Symbol Of Hindu Varna Apartheid , The Bengali Hindu Bhadraloke miserably failed even after 100 years to mention it ; rather they are engaged in misleading the Stupid communit and the Graeter world by cheating interpretation of the Apartheid term "Sudra" as meaning "Assistant " , really I feel astonished :: There is RS and That is Risely in 1891 and Vyavastha in 1901 117.194.195.140 ( talk) 14:18, 28 September 2018 (UTC)
Of course was launched by an Educated few who opposed "Sudra-Karan" of the community , and if you follow Vyavastha you will find , even Guruchand Thakur penned down his note of descent there . And Again the mythological name Namassej proposed to be from Namas was not just a self-proclaimed one , you have most probably deleted all the links of mythological facts. https://web.archive.org/web/20120527142733/http://namasudra.com/ 117.194.193.112 ( talk) 12:32, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
To be too much obsessed with Sekhar Banerjee may be missing the soul of the community . 117.194.193.112 ( talk) 12:39, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
This Varna-Free or Mukta Varna or Avarna community must be mentioned as avarna. Although the 'Sudra' tagged name is mentioned in all discourses , it is definitely 'Apartheid' without any confusion to name a community as 'sudra' and that is not permissible any where on this earth in any democracy . The name ""Namo"" is mentioned far back in 1891 by Risely , most of crude data references of Dr Sekhar Banerjee is from Risely . He himself has not done any survey so far I know . He does not reside in this continent also. He has clearly and confirmedly mentioned this community as "originally a tribe" living outside varna-society and without any land right or any of civili rights of a society .So there is no question of the community belonging originally to any Varna.The ""namo"" has not come from "Namsudra" , it is originated from The Namas Sage Mythology . That is what is said in the name ""Namassej"",actually the "sudra" tag is a part of subtle enslavement policy of the VarnaHindus. They always tried to enslave the Muktavarna or Avarna tribes . The deletion of the Name " Namo"" or "Namassej"( and also the archived movement from refernce) or the original Tribal Status denoted by "avrna' or 'varnafree"/muktavarna is defenitely wrong and not in Dr Sekhar Banerjee's book . Dr Sekhar Banerjee has also not accepted the interpretation " best among the Sudras, who were paid obeisance to"; his interpretation is Namasudra > Namati Sudra ( not Namas + sudra , clearly with a purpose to destroy the Mythology ); it means those who paid obeisance to the sudrs and thus becomes low beneath the sudrs , that is 'chanral' what they still call them in their drwaing room . I have no account . I do not think that should be strict criteria. Any one can go through Sekhar Banerjee . 117.194.207.111 ( talk) 09:20, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
any one watching this t/p has this book and is willing to send me scanned copies of specific pages?
I have my own doubts, as to it's reliability but, I will take a look. ∯WBG converse 06:32, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
I see that this article has had a substantial rewrite recently. Unfortunately, masses of it now appears to be unsourced and some of the phrasing appears to be very opinionated. - Sitush ( talk) 14:12, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
@ Sitush:--The massive edits have been executed by me and from Sekhar's primary book on the topic, which I managed to retrieve in near-entirety, courtesy RX.I will insert additional information and the corresponding cites by tomorrow.The unsourced-state had got something to do with my inability to exploit sfn until recent-past.[User:Winged Blades of Godric|∯WBG]] converse 17:07, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
I will be reverting the edit by Special:Contributions/202.8.117.237 regarding the piped link in the sentence:
"They lived outside the four-tier ritual varna system and thus were outcastes."
This is an incorrect piped link since it links to the
Apartheid wikipedia article. The Apartheid wikipedia article is specific to South Africa and is unrelated to the concept of
varnas in Hinduism.
I am not debating whether the varna system in Hinduism was discriminatory or not, nor am I defending discriminating against or enslaving people based on their birth or any other specific debates about the merits or demerits of the varna system.
I am open minded to the idea of "Indian apartheid" and also a possible
wikipedia article on apartheid in the Indian context. However the current Apartheid article is about South Africa and my revert is purely based on the fact that a link to an article specific to South Africa is factually incorrect and irrelevant to Namasudras.
I request we do not get into an
edit war over this and that we discuss any disagreements here in this talk page before any further reverts or undos.
Thanks,
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Namasudra article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
![]() | Namassej Samaj Andolon was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 19 February 2012 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Namasudra. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
![]() | The use of the contentious topics procedure has been authorised by the community for pages related to South Asian social groups, including this page. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be sanctioned. |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Some commentators trying promote Four Varna Hindu Apartheid Of Ved, Gita, etc through this article and promoting the apartheid terms like "Chandala" and "Sudra". Some Upper Varna Hindus( or Upper Caste) spreads the lie that sudra is not pejorative and these caste includes also those avoid using past "sudra tags" ; the hard truth is " Sudra means unconditional serving varna(class of Hindu Religion as per Manusmiriti, Rikved-10th, Gita and all later scriptures) and this means servants from heaven and by birth
'madhukshoronti sindhobee'; the truth is these are those of 'everything written in this land' and they promote as religion or Hinduism, and then say, 'I do not know what Hinduism is' or 'Hinduism is everything' but the truth is 'in their heart they believe in Gita , the 'maoya krityong..' the foundation of Hindu Apartheid.' Read Ambedkaar , everything will be clear as day light.
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 09:12, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
Hey Sitush, I couldn't understand why you have removed the sourced content, which is another opinion regarding the origin / anthropometry / proximity to other to other groups of people, and is relevant in the context, and was incorporated keeping WP:NPOV in mind. Sources are cited along with url in order to ensure easy verifiablity; that doesn't mean snippet views are not acceptable. Also, you had mentioned in the past in some discussions that even if an online link is not available but the source is verifiable, then the same may also be used as a source. Thanks. Ekdalian ( talk) 06:09, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Namasudra. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 18:09, 11 February 2018 (UTC)
Hi, I see that the Namasudra wikipedia page is more of a stub than a well laid out wiki page. It seems that the official wikipedia of Bangladesh, Banglapedia has a more accurate and informative post about Namasudras. I will give the link here, http://en.banglapedia.org/index.php?title=Namasudras . It seems one moderator, Sitush has asked about the citations and sourcing of mythology and other folklore about Namasudras. I would like to inform him that caste is an extremely complex and confusing subject in India and the world. It is very difficult to get any reliable information about any caste in India as it a loaded topic and prone to both positive and negative bias. However the Banglapedia website does mention about Vallalcharita(ie about Ballal Sen`s rule) which can be taken as a semi reliable source of mythology. Having said that I would mention that even ancient Indian texts are prone to deceitful manipulation by casteist,racist and Brahmanical writers.
Also I would like to add that very little has been mentioned about Namasudras and their role in British colonial governments and post colonial independent Indian govts of Bengal(eg Jogendranath Mondal,Kanti Biswas etc). This information can be added here from the Banglapedia article. Also certain terms like Chandal/avarna which are slurs should be avoided. Their use in pre colonial Indian parlance is debated and may have been largely confined to orthodox Brahminical texts. It is equivalent to the N-word used for black people and many Indian historians doubt if they were ever in verbal use. Obviously modern India no longer recognises those terms. AFAIK the chandals of vedas and the Namasudras are not the same. There are other points the article fails to mention like their post independence(post 1947 and 1970) exodus from Bangladesh to India,mainly to S 24 Paraganas,Bongaon and Nadia district of West Bengal.The Matua movement based in Sri Orakandi region of Bangladesh and CS Mead`s contributions should also be touched upon.
I humbly hope the moderators,namely Sitush and Ekdalian take note of my suggestions and see that there is meaningful and non controversial addition to this article. I commend them for their work and I would be ever grateful to contribute here if they require me to do so.
Namasudras at [1]
Pratik Maitra ( talk) 18:06, 13 September 2018 (UTC)Pratik Maitra
Edit: Just wanted to add that I finally created an account so as to ease the process of communication.
I used to believe Banglapedia being an official wikipedia would contain little OR as they claim to be verified by over 1450 scholars(their own website claims so). Glad to know it is not so.
As for my own contribution I can only chip in what I know of their political leaders like Kanti Biswas,the former education minister of West Bengal under the Communist Regime. Also I have already mentioned about Jogendranath Mandal,the first law minister of Pakistan.
Kanti Biswas at https://cpim.org/pressbriefs/cpim-condoles-death-comrade-kanti-biswas and again http://indianculturalforum.in/2017/06/17/confessions-of-a-namasudra-communist/ and finally https://www.indiatoday.in/pti-feed/story/cpim-leader-kanti-biswas-passes-away-597539-2016-04-28 .
As for sourcing I only have newspapers and other reports. The thing is written knowledge was not much in vogue in ancient/medieval and even present India unlike the West where there were multiple sources recording a single event. Most of what we know of Indian history was from sources/authors who recorded events in a mythological/fan fiction manner decades if not centuries later after the original event. Indian history/mythology was passed down orally even in the medieval ages. So it is prone to great bias and myth making. As a result I hardly have reliable sources. However Shekar Bandopadhyay`s work on Namasudras is a very well written and probably the most reliable source on the community. He is a NZ historian of Indian origin and I believe a great deal of information can be extracted from his book on this caste. ( Caste, Protest and Identity in Colonial India: The Namasudras of Bengal,1872-1947)
(Source: https://www.amazon.in/Caste-Protest-Identity-Colonial-India/dp/0198075960 )
As for the community`s own writings they have their own folklore and origin myths based on the Matua sect/religion they follow. The main corpus of the Matua sect/religion is probably the Harichad Lilamrita,ie the tellings or teachings of their prophet Sri Harichad Thakur whom Namasudras revere as the 10th reincarnation of Sri Vishnu. It is probably from that mythological book the members of the community claim their Brahmanic status and descent from Namas rishi. Finding a different sect was their way of Sanskritisation.
For a more realistic and modern writing I would suggest the famed Dalit writer of WB, Manoranjan Byapari(a self proclaimed Namasudra) and his part autobiographical work Ittibrite Chandal Jiban or its English avatar, Interrogating My Chandal Life: An Autobiography of a Dalit,(which has now been translated to English.I recently bought an English copy of it from Amazon and its also avaialable on Kindle.)
(About the author : https://www.thehindu.com/society/i-write-because-i-cant-kill-an-interview-with-manoranjan-byapari/article23926466.ece )
There is also considerable political manoeuvering with the community as they had generally formed a large voting block in erswhile Bengal province and now in WB.
(Source: https://www.telegraphindia.com/1101229/jsp/bengal/story_13364470.jsp)
Edit: I think I messed up my para spacing and other things while editing this reply. I am relatively new and anyone feel free to correct my para spacing.
Pratik Maitra ( talk) 23:52, 18 September 2018 (UTC)Pratik Maitra — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pratik Maitra ( talk • contribs) 23:30, 18 September 2018 (UTC)
http://125.22.40.134:8082/jspui/bitstream/123456789/2420/1/Bandhopadhyay%2c%20CASTE%20PROTEST%20AND%20IDENTITY%20COLONIAL%20INDIA%20%28210-237%29.pdf-See. ∯WBG converse 08:26, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
This matter has not been mentioned at all. It was the Church which first evoked the sense of self-dignity. And it eas Rev C.S. Mead who was the man behind every communication with British India Govt Officials otherwise this community would have also been like the others. Their folk mythology has also not been mentioned at all. Their identity movement has been completely ignored in the article. Of course, it has been mentioned it was not a community of Four-Varnas or Chaturvarna. But the category has not been corrected. This is not a "Sudra" community but this information has been ignored. The Vyavastha is an important document but ignored. It played a great role in the name change. These things should be incorporated. 117.194.195.157 ( talk) 18:52, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
Regarding Vyvastha which was submitted with the Representation of 'Name Change in Census Documents' to the Then British India Govt Officials may be found in this Ph.D. Thesis. He is an Associate Professor of History, WBES (may directly communicate with him) and most probably a scholar of Prof Hiteshranjan Sannyal. The Vyavastha includes a Note of Dissent in respect of the "Sudra" tag and also mentions this is 'for the time being'. This document has not been mentioned by Prof Sekhar Banerjee and that interprets that the community wanted to be tagged as "Sudra" and still in one place he has mentioned the community was unhappy for being mentioned as "Hindu" in 1941!! Actually now the Wikipedia page has the time started from '1840', what about the past, no RS?? The Book "Biswas, Ratan Kumar (2010). Namasudra Movements In Bengal (1872-1947). Progressive Book Forum. p. 158-160. ISBN 978-81-88006-19-9." 117.227.113.8 ( talk) 09:59, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
Straight cut copying of < https://books.google.co.in/books?id=MHEMAQAAMAAJ&q=namasudra&dq=namasudra&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjas8vpycHdAhVIsI8KHe2WBDo4ChDoAQgwMAI>, the views of Herbert Hope Risley, whose racial theories have been discredited and are fringe-y stuff.... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.194.201.216 ( talk) 12:22, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
I may mention many quotations from Sekhar Banerjee. And I shall. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.194.201.216 ( talk) 12:24, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
Further there is Book , which mentions the Name as "Namassej Namo" and this name "Namo" was mentioned by Risely far back in 1891 which seems to be the only one both containgin there Mythology and baring the Bashing Apartheid Symbol Of Hindu Varna Apartheid , The Bengali Hindu Bhadraloke miserably failed even after 100 years to mention it ; rather they are engaged in misleading the Stupid communit and the Graeter world by cheating interpretation of the Apartheid term "Sudra" as meaning "Assistant " , really I feel astonished :: There is RS and That is Risely in 1891 and Vyavastha in 1901 117.194.195.140 ( talk) 14:18, 28 September 2018 (UTC)
Of course was launched by an Educated few who opposed "Sudra-Karan" of the community , and if you follow Vyavastha you will find , even Guruchand Thakur penned down his note of descent there . And Again the mythological name Namassej proposed to be from Namas was not just a self-proclaimed one , you have most probably deleted all the links of mythological facts. https://web.archive.org/web/20120527142733/http://namasudra.com/ 117.194.193.112 ( talk) 12:32, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
To be too much obsessed with Sekhar Banerjee may be missing the soul of the community . 117.194.193.112 ( talk) 12:39, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
This Varna-Free or Mukta Varna or Avarna community must be mentioned as avarna. Although the 'Sudra' tagged name is mentioned in all discourses , it is definitely 'Apartheid' without any confusion to name a community as 'sudra' and that is not permissible any where on this earth in any democracy . The name ""Namo"" is mentioned far back in 1891 by Risely , most of crude data references of Dr Sekhar Banerjee is from Risely . He himself has not done any survey so far I know . He does not reside in this continent also. He has clearly and confirmedly mentioned this community as "originally a tribe" living outside varna-society and without any land right or any of civili rights of a society .So there is no question of the community belonging originally to any Varna.The ""namo"" has not come from "Namsudra" , it is originated from The Namas Sage Mythology . That is what is said in the name ""Namassej"",actually the "sudra" tag is a part of subtle enslavement policy of the VarnaHindus. They always tried to enslave the Muktavarna or Avarna tribes . The deletion of the Name " Namo"" or "Namassej"( and also the archived movement from refernce) or the original Tribal Status denoted by "avrna' or 'varnafree"/muktavarna is defenitely wrong and not in Dr Sekhar Banerjee's book . Dr Sekhar Banerjee has also not accepted the interpretation " best among the Sudras, who were paid obeisance to"; his interpretation is Namasudra > Namati Sudra ( not Namas + sudra , clearly with a purpose to destroy the Mythology ); it means those who paid obeisance to the sudrs and thus becomes low beneath the sudrs , that is 'chanral' what they still call them in their drwaing room . I have no account . I do not think that should be strict criteria. Any one can go through Sekhar Banerjee . 117.194.207.111 ( talk) 09:20, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
any one watching this t/p has this book and is willing to send me scanned copies of specific pages?
I have my own doubts, as to it's reliability but, I will take a look. ∯WBG converse 06:32, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
I see that this article has had a substantial rewrite recently. Unfortunately, masses of it now appears to be unsourced and some of the phrasing appears to be very opinionated. - Sitush ( talk) 14:12, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
@ Sitush:--The massive edits have been executed by me and from Sekhar's primary book on the topic, which I managed to retrieve in near-entirety, courtesy RX.I will insert additional information and the corresponding cites by tomorrow.The unsourced-state had got something to do with my inability to exploit sfn until recent-past.[User:Winged Blades of Godric|∯WBG]] converse 17:07, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
I will be reverting the edit by Special:Contributions/202.8.117.237 regarding the piped link in the sentence:
"They lived outside the four-tier ritual varna system and thus were outcastes."
This is an incorrect piped link since it links to the
Apartheid wikipedia article. The Apartheid wikipedia article is specific to South Africa and is unrelated to the concept of
varnas in Hinduism.
I am not debating whether the varna system in Hinduism was discriminatory or not, nor am I defending discriminating against or enslaving people based on their birth or any other specific debates about the merits or demerits of the varna system.
I am open minded to the idea of "Indian apartheid" and also a possible
wikipedia article on apartheid in the Indian context. However the current Apartheid article is about South Africa and my revert is purely based on the fact that a link to an article specific to South Africa is factually incorrect and irrelevant to Namasudras.
I request we do not get into an
edit war over this and that we discuss any disagreements here in this talk page before any further reverts or undos.
Thanks,