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Snake worship is indegenous to kerala and especially among Nair's. I'ld like the focus to be on Nair's and not classifying it as a dravidian custom. I dont even find that mentioned in the reference.
Moreover i'd like to add some references in some time. I'd like to know if they would be classified as secondary sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.48.204.31 ( talk) 07:29, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
Serpent worship is also prevalent in other parts of India. It's not a Dravidian custom. Most of the Naga Temples are in Kashmir. The origin of Nagavansh is from Kashmir. King Takshaka had had his Kingdom in Takshashila(Rawalpindi, Pakistan). Gandhara Kingdom, which was a Naga kingdom, was in northern Afghanistan. Ulupi was a Naga princess, Her father ruled the underwater kingdom of serpents in the Ganga river. Ananthapura was the Naga Kingdom of south. Shree Nagabhooshani Amman temple is one of the Shaktipeethas and is located in northern part of Sri Lanka. Nagas have no relation with Dravidians. Dravidians are very different people. They cannot be included in the Varna system. Means, their beliefs and traditions are entirely different from those communities which are following the Varna system from generations.
"Get your way"? How can you be so dismissive and arrogant? You are acting like the owner of this article and dismissing everything that does not fit your POV. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.230.254.189 ( talk) 08:01, 16 June 2012 (UTC)
I apologise for not being around for a couple of days, during which time we appear to have yet again attracted a burst of enthusiastic comments about the article. And, as is common here, the organisation has become somewhat chaotic. Can we please go through the thing one section at a time and please be aware that, while I have been a major contributor to the thing, there is no point in attacking me: there are entire sections to which I have contributed nothing and anything that I have contributed is based on reliable sources, Yes, some are perhaps not the sources that some would like to accept as being reliable, but they have been discussed extensively here and also at noticeboards such as WP:RSN, WP:ANI and (I think) WP:DRN.
So, to the etymology issue. As far as I can recall the section was massively pruned due to issues which appeared at the time to be ridiculously contentious and which were resulting in a fairly large number of administrative actions being required. Basically, "if the thing is not there then it ceases to be a problem". Forget Panikkar, Sadasivan etc for the moment: does anyone have any alternate sources of merit for this specific issue? Or are we stuck with the same old names? - Sitush ( talk) 00:06, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
Vettakkorumakansnehi ( talk) 12:31, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
User:Sitush is moving goal posts again. Should we find new sources? Hmm! Should we? Hmm! Hmm! That way we can discredit the building consensus right? Very clever.
Reason for KM Panikker as stated it's from a peer-reviewed article by an author who has already been quoted in the (scatterbrained) main article. Nayak is negotiable not because it is vanity motivated but because there are similar caste names in South India and its a plausible trend. Yes, it's just my theory but I really don't care about this.
I care more about the Orientalist slant of the whole article where biased Portuguese observations are sourced directly or indirectly through "modern" Marxist historians. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.231.76.105 ( talk) 14:44, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
VS Vettakkorumakansnehi ( talk) 14:58, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
The present statement in etymology section - “most of them have been described as being of unsatisfactory credibility” is based on the footnote of a translated travelogue!! (and not based on a scientific-peer-reviewed publication) and hence of inadequate credibility in both content and citation (as reliable scientific publication exists). Multiple users seem to agree on replacement of existing etymology section and inclusion of the more reliable scientific publication (in The Journal of the Royal Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland/JRAGBI by K.M Panicker). No user has provided any credible substantiation “why” this proposed JRAGBI publication should not be merited and “why” merit needs to be searched elsewhere. Further, no user has provided any opposing scientific-peer-reviewed research publication that discredits the content (Nagar-Nayar conclusion) of the JRAGBI article. However if any objections on the merit of the JRAGBI article exists, then please discuss them here precisely with substantiating reasons so that they may be clarified.
VS Vettakkorumakansnehi ( talk) 08:52, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
I am evading nothing, nor fillibustering. I asked a simple question: are there any more modern sources? This is because we do try to avoid using older sources. Yes, Panikkar is scattered around the article already but that is for a very specific reason and it has been explained to you: much of what he wrote regarding marriage practices etc were still evident when he was writing and he has a fairly unique perspective from our viewpoint because he was a Nair himself. That does not mean all that he wrote is suitable for inclusion and, right now, I am trying to find some more recent perspectives in the hope that we can avoid the need to use him. We know of Sadasivan, for example, but tracking stuff down is made complex because there are so many authors using the name Nair or Nayar. Nonetheless, I think it likely that the etymology has been discussed since Panikkar's time and thus raised the query. None of this means that Panikkar's opinion is incorrect: I simply do not have enough to form a judgment one way or the other. - Sitush ( talk) 14:44, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
Bdb484 ( talk · contribs) wants to offer a third opinion. To assist with the process, editors are requested to summarize the dispute in a short sentence below.
VS Vettakkorumakansnehi ( talk) 21:40, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
Hey, guys, I'm here from the 3O board. I just wanted to let y'all know that I've declined the request for a third opinion, due to the number of participants involved in the dispute. This is not to be needlessly bureaucratic; 3O is meant as a simple, quick way to break a deadlock between two editors. It's supposed to be a thing where a 3O Wikipedian takes a quick look at both sides (without doing hours of research into the merits of each case) and offers their own opinion in the hope of breaking the stalemate, and it's not equipped to handle the complexity inherent in disputes involving more than two editors. So, it's just not the right tool for this particular job. Thanks! Writ Keeper ⚇ ♔ 13:31, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
“nothing” = removing etymology section altogether from the article. Present statement = WP:COATRACK for a POV of ML Dames !!! Request for deletion of section from article to page-admin based on “always better for Wikipedia to say nothing on a matter rather than to rush to say something” VS Vettakkorumakansnehi ( talk) 00:34, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
WE MAY NEED TO KNOW THEIR REAL NAMES AND BACKGROUND OF THESE EDITORS TO KNOW EXACTLY WHAT IS BEHIND THEIR DISPUTES. IT DEFINITELY SEEM TO BE MORE THAN ACADEMIC. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.165.78.203 ( talk) 11:50, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
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WP:LEADCITE states that there is not an exception to citation requirements specific to “leads” and be determined on a case-by-case basis by editorial consensus. Therefore what is the opinion of various users on inserting this template (Template:Citation needed (lead)) after “The Nair were historically involved in military conflict in the region”. I ask this because I doubt if the “wordings” of this statement conforms to verifiability and other policies and is non-controversial to users. All users are encouraged to provide their individual opinion .....VS Vettakkorumakansnehi ( talk) 09:56, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
VS Vettakkorumakansnehi ( talk) 00:51, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
I am giving up for the moment. There is clearly some sort of pretty big communications/language issue here and I am fed up of going round in circles with you. If you accepted that the cognitive bias point is fallacious in the context of the the intended audience, then all of this thread is irrelevant. For that matter, I rather think that the entire cognitive bias theory is disputed but I am resisting the temptation to see if we have an article on it. -
Sitush (
talk) 02:29, 21 June 2012
(UTC)
1. Thank you (user:QW) for concurring on the issue of word “conflict” and not enforcing it as “sacrosanct” for the lead. If it is negative -YES- the word gives a very negative and altogether different meaning when used in this specific sentence. The adamance to not change the word “conflict” (see some of the arguments presented to discredit other options – even “armed forces” is unacceptable !!!) is detrimental to this discussion. Even the very portratit in this article shows them as "armed" with bows,swords,spears etc !!!
2. Invalid arguments for the sake of arguing - to discredit all of the proposed 8 NPOV alternates using the façade of semantics has caused all this filibustering. See For eg: - Nayar militia. Anthropologists and historians had never a problem to use the word “militia” in conjunction with Nair – because that was what they were predominantly recruited into locally (by both native rulers and European factors alike). 3. As for “engagements” – it was only one of the 8 NPOVs offered –If u consider it euphemism , you can avoid it – BUT you still have 7 other NPOV. I would greatly appreciate if there is anything among the other 7 that you (user:QW) in ur personal opinion might think can be used for replacement and conside NPOV ? Do you think all the other 7 are non-usable as well ? Do you have a pick ? 4. I am not intending any “SUBSTANTIAL changes to the body-text” in the future that may make present lead-sentences look misrepresentative (after the “conflict” amendment ofcourse) – I fear that it may be such a "hypothetical assumption of motive" that may be giving rise to the recalcitrance these NPOVs elicit from Sitush. I pray (User:QW) that you assume no such motives. Hence I donot see any reason to make/use that as reason to stall consideration of present NPOVs towards inclusion. 5. I shall wait for your pick from the other 7 NPOV options. I shall also wait for other users to express their objection/non-objection for “conflict” .VS Vettakkorumakansnehi ( talk) 10:02, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
I and Sitush have already explained what's wrong or POV about the above; I'm not going to repeat myself. Contemporary usage has everything to do with the issue. The reason I didn't comment on #9 is that the sentence currently in the article is better; why argue about a change when there's nothing wrong with the current version? I originally assumed good faith that there was a problem with conflict, but since a tiny amount of research showed that to be nothing other than your unsubstantiated personal opinion, further discussion doesn't seem productive (to me, anyone else, of course, is welcome to keep talking).
Qwyrxian (
talk)
02:30, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
There was no editor-consensus generated for the addition of (s), yet User:Sitush simply assumes that is the NPOV and directly makes the change in the article !!!. User Qw does not question it either!!! wheras to others users he directs ”Should you edit the article to follow one of your alternatives, we'll revert you” even when it was wnwarranted . This behavior of these two-editors in this specific context is completely unacceptable and gives an impression to other Users that there is a partisan behavior. Assuming good faith, i want to consider that this behavior is not along the lines that is described in
WP:GANG. I therefore kindly request User:Sitush to immeeiately revert the addition of (s) and try consensus-building here before doing so. We donot want to generate an impression that certain Users can circumvent the process of consensus-building. Thanks in advance. VS
Vettakkorumakansnehi (
talk)
12:55, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
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Some body has been taking very keen intrest in defining a Nair as a shudra. This is prominantly done by people who don't understand what a shudra is.Let me explain.
1.According to Manu Smrithi, a Brahman is forbidden to give advice or even food to a Sudra, for the ghi (clarified butter) having been offered to the gods, must not be eaten by him. Further, the Brahman must not give 'spiritual counsel to him,' nor inform him of the legal expiation of his sin.The Veda is never to be read in the presence of a Sudra, and for him no sacrifice is to be performed. He has no business with solemn rites But Nairs on the otherhand went to temples two times a day. A nambuthiri would do prayer for Nair and also would provide "theertha and prasada" to a Nair.Touching a nambuthiri was forbident inside the temple but outside it was never an issue.
2.Nairs we mainly a martial group like Rajputs.NO other lower caste were allowed in Army.
3.Nairs had a prominant social status in the country.
I request the administrator to consider my request kindly. Its ok not to honour a nair but kindly don't dishonour him like this.Please remove the usage of shudra from your site as you can see that its never used against any community in any of wikipedia subjects.Its is deeply derrogatorry. Somebody who doesn't understand the history and sacrifices and contributions made by Nairs to Kerala is taking keen interest in dishounering them. Please take a nuetral stand. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nritop1983 ( talk • contribs) 08:49, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
Kearal Society in the past was divided into two.Basically "Avarnar" and "Savarnar".Avarnar were basically lower cast people who were not allowed to enter the temple and savarnars who could enter a temple.The definition of Shudra fits avarnar.some sections of Nairs were under avarnars. The points i stated 1.2.3. are supported in many books including Gough. To answer your third point ,could you point me to any other article in Wikipedia where any other group have been mentioned as shudra other than Nairs. the mere fact that ihas been objected so many times..shows how objectionable this particular usage has been. So i request you again either Kindly point me to any other social group mentioned as shudra or have the kindness to remove that usage. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nritop1983 ( talk • contribs) 01:23, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
Thank You for pointing out 28 articles.I went through all of them ,i could find only two articles listing the term shudra in them.And also i was quite sad to find Nairs inside a group of Scheduled caste(28 listings).Though according to Gov.of India Nairs are considered as forward caste and not scheduled class. Again i put my request forward on basis of below citation from Kathleen Gough in her book "Matrilineal Kinship" (page 308,309). "so far i could discover they were as follows first, a caste called Kiriyathil Nayars in Calicut and Vellayma Nayars in Cochin.Most village headmen were drawn from this caste,... Second, a caste called Purathu Nayars (outdoor retainers).A special higher ranking subdivision of the caste called Paricha Menons (leaders of the Sheild) formed the Zamorins(kings) private army.. Third,a caste called Agathhu Charna Nayars(Indoor retainers)..they were often Clerks in palaces.. Fourth,Pallichan Nayars..these men were often palanquin beares and also soldiers. Fifth,a caste called Sudra Nayars and Iilathu Shudra Nayars....these members lived in villages owned by Brahman families or in estates of Brahmanical temples...."
I would like to remind you agian that the term Shudra is quite s drrogatory term in India.Even the scheduled caste and tribes don't want themselves to be called as such.There are more than a hundred shudra group in India and you will find none of them willing to call themselves as one.There fore they edit their page and remove the term.But you don't understand the shame in it and with no sympathy put a group of people (15 - 20percent of kerala population) into this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nritop1983 ( talk • contribs) 07:45, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
Thank You for the time and patience. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nritop1983 ( talk • contribs) 20:56, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
Is there a possibility to atleast change the Shudra callout to "Savarna Shudra". Since when people outside Kerala read this article they would normally compare Nairs to Shudras in North India..and in litratures of many scholars it is specifically mentioned that such a comparisson would be incorrect. (unsigned by User:182.48.204.176)
For Nritop and the IPs who have posted, if you would like to see the text changed there's a very simple way to make this more likely:
For anyone wanting changes, it is incumbent on the requestor to provide evidence. One simply can't demand that others "do the research" and make the changes for you. If your changes are supported by scholarly texts, your argument is much stronger if you can succinctly present those; note that does not mean dumping a series of gBooks link on the page and saying "read all of these and see I'm right" (as has happened on many caste pages). Further, note that current content is properly cited, so if you have an objection it needs to be clearer than "Book 1 say A and Book 2 says B; I think B is right so let's use Book 2". You must have a clear argument as to why WP editors are misusing or misunderstanding Book 1, or why Book 1 is not a good source.
The people who wrote the current version of the article have provided proper citations and clear arguments for what they've included, so the same is needed to further upgrade the article. MatthewVanitas ( talk) 13:50, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
My concern is that a totally different kind of caste system was observed in south India. This being mixed by the caste system of the north by the colonist had lead to a big confusion. Moreover the government of India describes Nair's as a forward Caste. Nair's dont enjoy any kind of reservation in any way. Why should they be considered a backward caste then? FYI Shudra's are backward castes.
Just leave the caste details and only cover the points well explained. Why not keep the article short and sweet ?
Clearly something is missing here.
to start with not enough research has been conducted on the history of india itself - not to talk about the specific history of nairs. part of this history is that which is passed on from a generation to the next, which while potentially not completely true is an honest representation of facts.
almost all of the written history of kerala and by association the nairs has been lost (from being in the sole and exclusive possession of the kingly scribes) owing to invasions and colonisations, what is remaining is in the possession of the trvancore royal family and can be examined if one has the patience and the willingness to face the truth.
clearly most of this article is based on opinion, albeit educated opinion and mostly western sources. i do not understand the logic of excluding Panikker's position. this in my mind abounds to racism in a way, potentially assuming that panikker is less accomplished because he is not western in origin.
in a recent geneological study by the ragiv gandhi institute of bio technology, the nair genetics point to a journey from around Iran through north and central india later arriving in kerala, the wide spread casts of similar nature, the bunts, the naidu's the nayaks, the naykar etc are all very close together and are spread out from the same genetic pool, in the first instance, while the whole question of the dravidian is some what unclear, assuming that the nairs are dravidians given current definitions of the word is at best a conjecture
again a simple comparison of the languages of the nairs, the naidus, the rayas and raos, the reddy's etc to tamil indicates the prevalence of sanskrit to a large extent in the those languages. even for a group like the naikar in tamil nadu, the tamil they speak is entirely different and has many more sanskrit words and grammatical constructions relative to pure tamil.
it is also clearly well known that the nairs were martial; for generations families have told their children to "fear not the spilling of blood for it is with blood that we have irrigated this land" and then a quip "more of theirs than ours"
i only request that the bias is removed and a more open attitude is practiced about the edits . that said i have not edited any of this matter any time
i am hoping some one could do some proper work on this
best joe — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.127.7.82 ( talk) 08:07, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
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Wrong information given. Many of the statements given in the entry are wrong are not mentioned in the linked sources. These statements are demeaning to the caste and maligns their status. These mistakes have also been protected by the author. Changes must be made with full proof references Myth 90 ( talk) 18:39, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
Traditionally all Upper caste of kerala (brahmins,ambalavasi,good section of nairs) were vegeterians. pls edit this.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.83.55.248 ( talk) 07:05, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
Hi,
The final block in the overview mentions worship of a snake, a dravidian custom. However it needs to be corrected. The fact mentioned is Nairs worshipped snakes. The reference is totally misinterpreted. It is nowhere written that snake worship is a dravidian custom. Please correct it.
Nairs ere or dravidians who worshiped snakes, not the dravidians in general. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bidett ( talk • contribs) 20:33, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
The source only mentions that Nair's are south Indians who had a custom of worshiping snakes. It never mentioned that all south Indians worship snakes. Ex: You are a human named Sitush. It doesn't mean humans are named Sitush :) No offense I am just explaining. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JeeHuan1023 ( talk • contribs) 14:49, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
Stemming from the discussion above with the admin Qwyrxian I suggest removal of the 16th century portrait by Jan Huyghen van Linschoten secretary to the Archbishop of Goa João Vicente da Fonseca, O.P.1582–1587 . Intothefire ( talk) 17:25, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
This history is totally biased, baseless and an attempt to degrade and depict Nairs as some tribals in kerala. I object this with full energy. The image selected for this article doesnt seems to be with a good taste. I would request Editors/Admins to replace the image with any of the following ones which seem much better :
1)Nayer women at meal : http://digitallibrary.usc.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15799coll123/id/5403/rec/1
OR
2)Nayer Girl in Malabar http://digitallibrary.usc.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15799coll123/id/24642/rec/9
OR
3)Nayer Girls Singing Song http://digitallibrary.usc.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15799coll123/id/22744/rec/5
OR
4)Nayer Temple in Malabar http://digitallibrary.usc.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15799coll123/id/5254/rec/12
OR
5)Nayer House in Malabar http://digitallibrary.usc.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15799coll123/id/36012/rec/10
Hoping a kind and positive response. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JeeHuan1023 ( talk • contribs) 10:54, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
It is also postulated that the Nayars of Malabar originally migrated from the Tulu nadu as noted here: Manual of Madras Administration Vol II (printed in 1885) notes that the Nadavas are the same people as the Nayars of Malabar and the Bunts of Southern Tulu nadu. 'They appear to have entered Malabar from the North rather than the South and to have peopled first the Tulu, and then the Malayalam country. They were probably the off-shoot of some colony in the Konkan or the Deccan. In Malabar and south of Kanara as far as Kasargod, they are called Nayars and their language is Malayalam. From Kasargod to Brahmavar, they are termed as Bunts and speak Tulu. To the north of Brahmavar, they are called Nadavars, and they speak Kanarese.' — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.99.183.138 ( talk) 16:48, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
The other pictures provided a traditional view of Nair Women. The current picture is of a semi nude girl whereas the remaining are pictures with women in their traditional clothing. They also give an aura of the surrounding at that point of time. I also suggest adding image depicting the Nair housing and other prominent shades instead of just showing the women.
Hope you understand what i am meaning to say. Thanks a lot for your time. JeeHuan1023 ( talk) 19:45, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
JeeHuan1023 ( talk) 09:16, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
HI Jee Huan ( talk and QWYRXIAN Qwyrxian, why do you need permission from Sitush for everything ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.211.66.59 ( talk) 07:53, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
@ Qwyrxian Please do the honor and replace the image with the new one. I dont think Jee Huan is available since long. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.228.62.132 ( talk) 14:49, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
Lets remove all the disputed points and keep it short and sweet. Have a list of reliable authors for R&D. I moved the previous out of the title because it makes it very difficult to leave a full edit summary. Qwyrxian ( talk) 04:08, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
Although editors claim that not much have been recorded about the history of the Nairs, this article is pretty huge compared to other articles based on remaining surnames of India.
What I propose we should do :
1) Remove all the disputed points which has issues. 2) Lets make sure there is no ambiguity in this article. 3) I have noted that some suggestions by certain people are totally valid, why not listen to them ? The snake worship being put up as a 'dravidian custom' as pointed out by many. It is totally useless. The Nairs are specially known for snake worship and custom. Why is it generalized ? Not fair at all! 4) Nairs are not shudras. A lot of kings were Nair's. It is more of a title. And the caste system which never existed in Kerala, how can that be enforced. Most of this articles is unfair and will be removed upon auditing. The caste system is totally based on the work: Nairs are warriors and warriors alone. The foreigners coming up and guessing things is unreliable.
FINALLY; I propose the editors give a list of reliable authors so that others can do research by themselves and provide valuable input.
Keeping watch on it!!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by FindingSolace ( talk • contribs)
I would be grateful if you could list those points made in the article that you consider to be ambiguous or disputed, aside from the shudra and snake issues, which have been discussed to death. As far as Nairs being kings is concerned, sure, some held high rank as the article says but you cannot extrapolate that all Nairs were therefore kshatriya or whatever. Most clearly were not, otherwise there would have been many thousands of kingdoms, the reliable sources would say so and those same sources would acknowledge that the caste system of Kerala was of the four-division variety found elsewhere in India when, in fact, we have an entire article explaining that it was not and indeed was a "lunatic asylum of castes" (Swami Vivekananda).-- 2.219.218.79 ( talk) 22:35, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
Manusmrithi segregated the Cast System based on function. As per function Nairs were primarily Warriors. So naturally Nairs should be regarded as Kshatriyas.Other than showing their palms to the believers for alms.. what is the contribution of Brahmins in Kerala History, on the other side nairs fought wars.. many books describe their valour and courage. Namboothiri brahmins were a minority (less than 2 percent)..census show that..yet Wikipedia boasts that they considered Nairs as shudras. Let manusmrithi go to hell and "sitush"smrithi prevail. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.236.244.22 ( talk) 14:49, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
Is there any higher authority we could write to .. or is it you two or three guys are running the show on "as i think" concept.Beacause you guys have put an article which totaly tries to demean Nairs, I went through some of the writers mentioned in this article ... their books show great respect towards this community.. they all describe about the courage and warrior status of Nairs..but here you guys have extracted some portions of each book and then presented a consice impresice report on Nair community..targetting only on some aspects which would be considerered improper from todays point of veiw and have totally neglected the whole idea that the Nairs were primarily Warriors. You guys have used wikipedia to potray your anger and hatred against Nairs..putting up pictures which disgace Nairs, using potraits when real good pictures were available.and that too potraits by british hired people..who were specifically keen in undermining the local traditions , so that they could potray those communities as barbaric and justify their act of looting and illeagal occupation on a foreign land. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.236.244.22 ( talk) 02:54, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
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I would request you to recheck the validity of Putting Nair in Shudra Caste. Besides some books written by western and indian historians who have clubbed Nair to Shudra Caste had no valid backings except showing some similiarities with other lower castes in Kerla which is hypocritical. Besides, nobody consulted people representing the Nair Community or Nair Service Society which is sole Social Organisation representing Nairs before writing such article.
I do not have evidences or proofs, but there are many cultural, day to day and behavioural similiarities of Nair to Nambudiris(Kerala Brahmins) and Verma(Kshatriya Kings). In fact, I have read an article of a Historian where he refers Vermas Of Kerala having origin in Nair Community.
Since Kerala Nambudiris always referred Castes below them as Shudras in which Vermas and Ambalavasis also come, there is no justification seen in Clubbing Nair in Shura Caste which specifically means Lower Caste.
It is a fact that Nair belongs to Kshatriya Community not just because they dealt with war and ammunitions, but lived, behaved as well. Besides there are Historical Evidences also which shows that this Community migrated to South India specifically to Karnataka and Kerala during 4 AD to 6. AD.
So pls update Nair community description and Club it into Kshatriya Caste in Wikipedia. Pls do contact NSS (Nair Service Society) for any further clarifications.
115.111.124.130 ( talk) 10:52, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
I have been following this page since many Years.. and I have noticed that some people who hold the rights to edit this page are biased and use bits and pieces of information from books of Paniker and Kathleen Gough to portray Nairs as some "Dirty Caste". The fore front of this group is "Sitush". Wikipedia should see the number of request coming for edits (over the years). It’s unfortunate that there is no auditing body that audits the information provided in this page. They just see if this particular portion is mentioned in any book, they do not validate how authentic is that information provided in the book. For instance it’s mentioned that Nampoothiris over ranked even the kings and they regarded all Nairs as Shudra. From where did they get this information….. If its mentioned by Gough, who approved it, Does any of the scriptures mention this phrase. No body knows in what context Gough said this and how was it validated.In contrast to this Panicker states Nairs as Caste group similar to Kshatriya.. Both of the writers are have no proofs in their books yet for some reason have been called shudras indirectly. Now what Wikipedia has done is they have published this information and people all over the world who don't know the status of Nair’s in Kerala will start thinking Nair’s as Shudras, when its repeatedly said in many books that the Quadrilateral system of Caste division was not followed in Kerala and it relied more on Avarnar and Savarnar Based division of Caste. Caste system is a reality in India ..even today..Intercaste maariages are considered Taboo... and in this phase they call Nairs as Shudras..Totally derogating them. Nairs gave their blood and life in protecting this State.. but the way it has been described in this article ... their souls will never forgive those who wrote this page. Think what nambuthiris and Bhramins have contributed to this state….. noting ...they have simply taken alms and offering from other people and carried out their lively hoods by exploiting "fear of God" in people’s mind.. their gene pool itself is a Sham and Shame in that context. Wikipedia should remove the line "The Nambudiri Brahmins were at the top of the ritual caste hierarchy and in that system outranked even the kings. They regarded all Nairs as sudra. Below the Nambudiris came the Tamil Brahmins and other later immigrants of the Brahmin varna. Beyond this" stated under the paragraph "Caste System" or retain it if their is proof for Kathleen Gough's Statement. Wikipedia should understand the reality in India .. calling A Caste as Shudra is a real Shame.. no other philosophy will work here.. Peoples life depend on this.. especially people who are in love..in which boy or a girl is a Nair.. all these times ..Nairs were respected and with this article people will start avoiding alliances with Nairs..They will be degraded..people like sitush will get happiness through this.. but the causalities of this statement is far reaching (than you imagine).. Please consider this request seriously..Kindly remove the line "The Nambudiri Brahmins were at the top of the ritual caste hierarchy and in that system outranked even the kings. They regarded all Nairs as sudra. Below the Nambudiris came the Tamil Brahmins and other later immigrants of the Brahmin varna. Beyond this" stated under the paragraph "Caste System" or retain it if there is proof for Kathleen Gough's Statement...any scriptures that authenticate her statement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.236.244.22 ( talk) 17:37, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
Caste Systems are subset of Religion..Specially in the Case of Hinduism..for example Manusmrithi is the code for all caste based divisions ..I donot understand when you are are not able to provide substantial proof of your claim..wouldn't that be considered as a biased action to publish that statement. My question is simple "if a writer sees a cat and writes in his book that its a cow..would you go ahead and use that information or you restrain yourself and say "i dont know what that animal is... this particular writer thinks its a cow"..and this task becomes complicated when there is another writer writer who say its a cat..So now as an unbiased publisher wouldn't is be correct if you say in your article.."There are multiple opinion about the category of this creature.. some say it belongs to Cat family some say it belong to cow family.." For your reference i have copy pasted a section of "The Indian Empire Census of 1881 Statistics of Population Vol. II." Here the Nairs and Sudras are reffered under different categories.Showing that the government didnot consider Nairs as Sudras.
web page: http://www.chaf.lib.latrobe.edu.au/dcd/page.php?title=&record=566
CASTE-SUDRA; TOTAL 339355 166483 172872 CASTE-SUDRA; BENGAL 186467 90606 95861 CASTE-SUDRA; COCHIN 152871 75868 77003 CASTE-SUDRA; HYDERABAD 17 9 8 CASTE-VANIAN; TOTAL 339136 168029 171107 CASTE-VANIAN; MADRAS 316610 156882 159728 CASTE-VANIAN; TRAVANCORE 22526 11147 11379 CASTE-NAIR; TOTAL 336227 162881 173346 CASTE-NAIR; COORG 907 845 62 CASTE-NAIR; MADRAS — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.236.244.22 ( talk) 08:41, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
Well I should say that wikipedia it totally flawed. It doesnt respect the primary document but if a secondary document derives a false interpretation its totally reliable. Absurd!!!! And government articles are not reliable ? Really ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.229.76.160 ( talk) 13:14, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
So you have decided that British census is only good in numbers and not reliable for determining the status of the people. Qwarxian this is Human Rights Violation against a group of people who unfortunately have to go outside Kerala for work..(for your infomation..Kerala was declared the least employed state in the country.. but the most educated)as many have mentioned Sudras are given a totally different status in rest of India.Nairs are not extinct group Qwarxian... they are very much alive and wikipedia which most of the India would read..would see Nairs as Sudras..Can this be put into catagory for calling the present generation as Sudras and thus being denied "Right of Equality" in India. Is wikipedia ignoring the fact that Caste system is taken seriously even today in India. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.236.244.22 ( talk) 22:48, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
Profile created III-XII -- QueSeraCera ( talk) 18:49, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
Hello Qwyrxian ,
Following up from our recent discussion on your talk page with regard to your stand as an admin and actions therein on what I consider the contradictory position or ambiguity of when a source is deemed reliable , on this page the main picture is a painting by a 16th century European traveler . But on 17th November 2011 you
"Undid revision 461091826 by Vineet Nayar1 (talk) the lead should only have one image; howveer, consider moving it elswhere if verified" .Did you in the capacity of an admin consider
Jan_Huyghen_van_Linschoten a 16th century painting reliable a source for the main pictorial on the Nairs ? When you
Conscientiously deleted the picture by Raja Ravi Verma ...did the credentials of this one simply miss your attention or you concurred that this 16th century picture was fine .Many caste articles like this one where you have intervened have these colonial pictures of "natives" . Would appreciate your rational for leaving this picture intact when you deleted the other .
Picture | Contributed to wikipedia by | Introduced into this article by | Source of this picture |
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KondottySultan KondottySultan is a sockpuppet of User:Nair [1] [2] |
User Nair on 27October 2011 | This 16th century portrait is taken from a historical account by Portuguese traveler and historian Jan Huyghen van Linschoten (1562-1611). Read the complete summary on File page The King of Cochin riding on an Elephant, attended by his Nairs.jpg page |
Thanks for your reply Intothefire ( talk) 11:28, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
The image mentioned above was contributed by Kondothy Sultan found to be a sockpuppet of user Nair who himself was a user who created a profile name called nair itself and used it to malign the whole caste/race/title. Its suspiscious how his contributions were readily accepted by the admins.
-- QueSeraCera ( talk) 18:58, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
This picture is the oppening immage for the Entire Article and as mentioned it was painted by Jan Huyghen van Linschoten.IN his another painting Fusta , he himself calls the malabares as Enemies. And for some reason the painting done by this very person is displayed upfront. Its similar to a potrait of America by Osama bin Laden being put in an Article for America..that too as a head mast. So can this image be removed until a neutral picture from a neutral person is obtained. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.236.244.22 ( talk) 19:29, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
Wikipedia is
not a battleground to fight whatever cultural war you're trying to pursue. If you have reliably sourced information that you want to add, please start a new section and then provide it and your source, and it will be evaluated according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If you don't like those policies, you can either try get them changed, or you can edit another website.
Qwyrxian (
talk)
09:37, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
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I have recently seen one post by someone at the end of this page. But admins are removing this. A history explain a destructive nature by the admins. I just created an account seeing this. We need to restore our page to give clarity to the users. See the history here: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Nair&action=history And here is the original content deleted by the admins!!! <redacted> — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kvn nair ( talk • contribs)
But this clearly is not our history. We have a proud history for years. But only things highlighted here are the negative side. And those are really rarely seen. Take the achievers in Kerala. Atleast in south Kerala, I can say that out of 100 achievers, 90 are from our community. Kvn nair ( talk) 14:25, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
Problem here is almost everything written here doesn't reflect our history. These are written biased just to tarnish our image. And I can see that few of the admins(Atleast Sitush) is not accepting the sources referred by many of our editors. Kvn nair ( talk) 15:50, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
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Nayars are not a caste, but a race with its numerous sub-castes and surnames. Nayars can be found in all walks of life. They are aware of their cultural traditions and history and form an integral and active part of Kerala society. Nayars are the Savarna Hindus who constituted the warriors, landed gentry and yeoman of Kerala. [1]
Qwyrxian you dont have the right to classify a book as old and reference as irrelevant because you are not a historian.Please try to stay within your bounds. and if your real motivation was "Scientific" tell me what biological distinction creates a "Caste System"
You might have all the books at your desk but try getting out sometime and even visiting Kerala. You have been obsessed with this page for years. Thanks for pointing out to us how sources of information are controlled by Europeans with their refusal to accept any local historic account. This garbage page will one day create a huge controversy in India. Congratulations because then you would have finally arrived. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.232.169.156 ( talk) 23:26, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
I've been through this article and it is very cluttered.
To begin with the lead talks about the 'snakes' in Nair compund ?
The main point to be noted is that Nairs were not a race that got extinct. THey still live and hence the article hould be about nairs in general. What I have seen is this article describes how nayars lived at one point of time. Comeon guys. It's a human caste/race/title and not dinosaurs.
I suggest please remove all unwanted points and add up only the important points.
-- QueSeraCera ( talk) 18:35, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
I have no idea what points you consider to be "unwanted", although I could probably hazard a guess based on the numerous past discussions here. It would be worth your while trying to have a read through the archives for this talk page before letting us know what you consider to be "unwanted" - you may find that it has been dealt with in the recent past. Thanks. - Sitush ( talk) 20:55, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
I agree this is an encyclopedia, but that doesn't mean that Nairs should be treated as Australopithecus. I am a Nair and After reading this article I feel like converting into some other religion. I don't know who has edited this.Non sense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.96.127.140 ( talk) 16:27, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
Regardless of what this page says, Nairs are basically warriors..This page is POV against Nairs.Just ignore for time being.Some people arebasically trying to potray Nairs as bunch of crooks.
There are many books which narrate the courage and valor of Nairs.But this page toatally deviates from addressing what the primary function of Nairs was..and addresses some of the social aspects which was common in the past but seen as "bad" in the present day.
People like Sitush get a peacefull sleep by doing things like this..and they do this simply beacuse they can..there is basically nobody(no panel) to judge them. These people want to potray Nairs as Shudras..but we know its like saying Lion is a cat..But unfortunately they are trying to put both of them together in a single cage..the cage of Indian Caste system.And people who know the entire piccture understand how silly this is.
Nairs belong to Kerala..everybody there knows what they are..i think even you know that..that's why like all of us you also got offended by this page..But i would suggest that you understand that we fought, gave life, took lives to protect our country.. Out of 100 famous personalities from kerala 90 would be nairs..if you doubt it check it.. I have even seen a funny reply where these people say that Mohanlal is not a Nair..This page has many bull craps like these..ignore those. ...Remember that you have a warrior blood..just be sure that you honor it all the time. Why our history is being controlled by few admins here? Please restore the wiki to its original state soon Kvn nair ( talk) 14:23, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
Dont give us this crap of "Sanctions threat".If you go through the Archives from 2004, you will find only oppositions to whatever "pile of waste" you guys have posted here. If you had commonsence you would have understood long back that the article which you have segregated here doesnot matchup with reality.the shear volume of oppositions from the community (from 2004) is a testimonial to this,. And is there any other "Caste group" which is controlled like this.The so called "fact" have been taken from sources from the colonial period where the authers have taken some bad behavior within a minortiy group and the you guys took bits and peices and projected it as a mojority group Behaviou. And the saddest part in all this is there is no well qualified historian from Kerala in this commity who has audited this.And for your information the colonial writers were never here to "Praise about INDIA" their main objective was to show Indians as some lunatics or savages,and hence justify their encroachment and plunder to the masses of England.
The whole article amounts to defamation. I can understand telling the truth to caste myths. But this whole entry reads like an exercise in verbal diarrhea filled with things that have nothing to do with reality. This has clearly been written by people who have no real idea about what they are writing about except for what they have read in some books, which invariably have to be written by White people for authenticity in their eyes. They refuse Nair sources claiming that they are biased. It is like refusing Jewish sources for anything related to Jews. It makes no sense but the few people who control this page keep on doing it. Whether well-meaning or not, this entry depicts a Eurocentric point of view.
This page has to be brought to the attention of the NSS. This joke has go on for far too long. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.232.169.156 ( talk) 23:22, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
The article on the whole has a negative conotation. In the diet section it says ' In the modern day, alcohol is a component of Nair-dominated festivals in Kerala;. Which are the nair dominated festivals of kerala? Veluthedathu, Vilakkithala nairs are people who did the laundry and hair cutting for nairs and does not come under the nair caste. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.63.162.99 ( talk) 14:29, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
1."Today, the government of India does not treat the Nair community as a single entity "-- Is there any reference for this statement? can it please be mentioned in the article?
2.The write up --Christophe Jaffrelot believes that the NSS stands in contrast to the All-India Yadav Mahasabha (AIYM), another caste association, since the NSS desired "emancipation" and saw sanskritisation as "a means of reconciling low ritual status with growing socio-economic assertiveness and of taking the first steps towards an alternative, Dravidian identity", whereas the AIYM sought to subvert from within the existing case system.[47]
In this reference 47 ( India's Silent Revolution: The Rise of the Lower Castes) there is no mention about NSS.There does not seem to be a AIYM either.Does All India Yadav mahasabha exist? Any details of AIYM? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.242.166.85 ( talk) 16:29, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
So many people find this whole entry complete garbage. NSS has most of its support in Central Travancore in 1975? It's 2013 now. Any idea how it is going now? Or are you waiting for another book from a European author? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.232.169.156 ( talk) 23:29, 1 June 2013 (UTC) And btw alcohol consumption is rampant in Kerala in every community. That doesn't mean that they are officially part of any "Nair-dominated festival" (whatever that means because there aren't any such ones where people of all Hindu castes don't participate). But reality doesn't matter in wikipedia when it comes to the lives of dark-skinned natives. Only citations matter. This is clearly an attack on the community and will be seen in serious light. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.232.169.156 ( talk) 23:37, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
s
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | ← | Archive 18 | Archive 19 | Archive 20 | Archive 21 |
Snake worship is indegenous to kerala and especially among Nair's. I'ld like the focus to be on Nair's and not classifying it as a dravidian custom. I dont even find that mentioned in the reference.
Moreover i'd like to add some references in some time. I'd like to know if they would be classified as secondary sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.48.204.31 ( talk) 07:29, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
Serpent worship is also prevalent in other parts of India. It's not a Dravidian custom. Most of the Naga Temples are in Kashmir. The origin of Nagavansh is from Kashmir. King Takshaka had had his Kingdom in Takshashila(Rawalpindi, Pakistan). Gandhara Kingdom, which was a Naga kingdom, was in northern Afghanistan. Ulupi was a Naga princess, Her father ruled the underwater kingdom of serpents in the Ganga river. Ananthapura was the Naga Kingdom of south. Shree Nagabhooshani Amman temple is one of the Shaktipeethas and is located in northern part of Sri Lanka. Nagas have no relation with Dravidians. Dravidians are very different people. They cannot be included in the Varna system. Means, their beliefs and traditions are entirely different from those communities which are following the Varna system from generations.
"Get your way"? How can you be so dismissive and arrogant? You are acting like the owner of this article and dismissing everything that does not fit your POV. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.230.254.189 ( talk) 08:01, 16 June 2012 (UTC)
I apologise for not being around for a couple of days, during which time we appear to have yet again attracted a burst of enthusiastic comments about the article. And, as is common here, the organisation has become somewhat chaotic. Can we please go through the thing one section at a time and please be aware that, while I have been a major contributor to the thing, there is no point in attacking me: there are entire sections to which I have contributed nothing and anything that I have contributed is based on reliable sources, Yes, some are perhaps not the sources that some would like to accept as being reliable, but they have been discussed extensively here and also at noticeboards such as WP:RSN, WP:ANI and (I think) WP:DRN.
So, to the etymology issue. As far as I can recall the section was massively pruned due to issues which appeared at the time to be ridiculously contentious and which were resulting in a fairly large number of administrative actions being required. Basically, "if the thing is not there then it ceases to be a problem". Forget Panikkar, Sadasivan etc for the moment: does anyone have any alternate sources of merit for this specific issue? Or are we stuck with the same old names? - Sitush ( talk) 00:06, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
Vettakkorumakansnehi ( talk) 12:31, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
User:Sitush is moving goal posts again. Should we find new sources? Hmm! Should we? Hmm! Hmm! That way we can discredit the building consensus right? Very clever.
Reason for KM Panikker as stated it's from a peer-reviewed article by an author who has already been quoted in the (scatterbrained) main article. Nayak is negotiable not because it is vanity motivated but because there are similar caste names in South India and its a plausible trend. Yes, it's just my theory but I really don't care about this.
I care more about the Orientalist slant of the whole article where biased Portuguese observations are sourced directly or indirectly through "modern" Marxist historians. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.231.76.105 ( talk) 14:44, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
VS Vettakkorumakansnehi ( talk) 14:58, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
The present statement in etymology section - “most of them have been described as being of unsatisfactory credibility” is based on the footnote of a translated travelogue!! (and not based on a scientific-peer-reviewed publication) and hence of inadequate credibility in both content and citation (as reliable scientific publication exists). Multiple users seem to agree on replacement of existing etymology section and inclusion of the more reliable scientific publication (in The Journal of the Royal Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland/JRAGBI by K.M Panicker). No user has provided any credible substantiation “why” this proposed JRAGBI publication should not be merited and “why” merit needs to be searched elsewhere. Further, no user has provided any opposing scientific-peer-reviewed research publication that discredits the content (Nagar-Nayar conclusion) of the JRAGBI article. However if any objections on the merit of the JRAGBI article exists, then please discuss them here precisely with substantiating reasons so that they may be clarified.
VS Vettakkorumakansnehi ( talk) 08:52, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
I am evading nothing, nor fillibustering. I asked a simple question: are there any more modern sources? This is because we do try to avoid using older sources. Yes, Panikkar is scattered around the article already but that is for a very specific reason and it has been explained to you: much of what he wrote regarding marriage practices etc were still evident when he was writing and he has a fairly unique perspective from our viewpoint because he was a Nair himself. That does not mean all that he wrote is suitable for inclusion and, right now, I am trying to find some more recent perspectives in the hope that we can avoid the need to use him. We know of Sadasivan, for example, but tracking stuff down is made complex because there are so many authors using the name Nair or Nayar. Nonetheless, I think it likely that the etymology has been discussed since Panikkar's time and thus raised the query. None of this means that Panikkar's opinion is incorrect: I simply do not have enough to form a judgment one way or the other. - Sitush ( talk) 14:44, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
Bdb484 ( talk · contribs) wants to offer a third opinion. To assist with the process, editors are requested to summarize the dispute in a short sentence below.
VS Vettakkorumakansnehi ( talk) 21:40, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
Hey, guys, I'm here from the 3O board. I just wanted to let y'all know that I've declined the request for a third opinion, due to the number of participants involved in the dispute. This is not to be needlessly bureaucratic; 3O is meant as a simple, quick way to break a deadlock between two editors. It's supposed to be a thing where a 3O Wikipedian takes a quick look at both sides (without doing hours of research into the merits of each case) and offers their own opinion in the hope of breaking the stalemate, and it's not equipped to handle the complexity inherent in disputes involving more than two editors. So, it's just not the right tool for this particular job. Thanks! Writ Keeper ⚇ ♔ 13:31, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
“nothing” = removing etymology section altogether from the article. Present statement = WP:COATRACK for a POV of ML Dames !!! Request for deletion of section from article to page-admin based on “always better for Wikipedia to say nothing on a matter rather than to rush to say something” VS Vettakkorumakansnehi ( talk) 00:34, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
WE MAY NEED TO KNOW THEIR REAL NAMES AND BACKGROUND OF THESE EDITORS TO KNOW EXACTLY WHAT IS BEHIND THEIR DISPUTES. IT DEFINITELY SEEM TO BE MORE THAN ACADEMIC. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.165.78.203 ( talk) 11:50, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
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WP:LEADCITE states that there is not an exception to citation requirements specific to “leads” and be determined on a case-by-case basis by editorial consensus. Therefore what is the opinion of various users on inserting this template (Template:Citation needed (lead)) after “The Nair were historically involved in military conflict in the region”. I ask this because I doubt if the “wordings” of this statement conforms to verifiability and other policies and is non-controversial to users. All users are encouraged to provide their individual opinion .....VS Vettakkorumakansnehi ( talk) 09:56, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
VS Vettakkorumakansnehi ( talk) 00:51, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
I am giving up for the moment. There is clearly some sort of pretty big communications/language issue here and I am fed up of going round in circles with you. If you accepted that the cognitive bias point is fallacious in the context of the the intended audience, then all of this thread is irrelevant. For that matter, I rather think that the entire cognitive bias theory is disputed but I am resisting the temptation to see if we have an article on it. -
Sitush (
talk) 02:29, 21 June 2012
(UTC)
1. Thank you (user:QW) for concurring on the issue of word “conflict” and not enforcing it as “sacrosanct” for the lead. If it is negative -YES- the word gives a very negative and altogether different meaning when used in this specific sentence. The adamance to not change the word “conflict” (see some of the arguments presented to discredit other options – even “armed forces” is unacceptable !!!) is detrimental to this discussion. Even the very portratit in this article shows them as "armed" with bows,swords,spears etc !!!
2. Invalid arguments for the sake of arguing - to discredit all of the proposed 8 NPOV alternates using the façade of semantics has caused all this filibustering. See For eg: - Nayar militia. Anthropologists and historians had never a problem to use the word “militia” in conjunction with Nair – because that was what they were predominantly recruited into locally (by both native rulers and European factors alike). 3. As for “engagements” – it was only one of the 8 NPOVs offered –If u consider it euphemism , you can avoid it – BUT you still have 7 other NPOV. I would greatly appreciate if there is anything among the other 7 that you (user:QW) in ur personal opinion might think can be used for replacement and conside NPOV ? Do you think all the other 7 are non-usable as well ? Do you have a pick ? 4. I am not intending any “SUBSTANTIAL changes to the body-text” in the future that may make present lead-sentences look misrepresentative (after the “conflict” amendment ofcourse) – I fear that it may be such a "hypothetical assumption of motive" that may be giving rise to the recalcitrance these NPOVs elicit from Sitush. I pray (User:QW) that you assume no such motives. Hence I donot see any reason to make/use that as reason to stall consideration of present NPOVs towards inclusion. 5. I shall wait for your pick from the other 7 NPOV options. I shall also wait for other users to express their objection/non-objection for “conflict” .VS Vettakkorumakansnehi ( talk) 10:02, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
I and Sitush have already explained what's wrong or POV about the above; I'm not going to repeat myself. Contemporary usage has everything to do with the issue. The reason I didn't comment on #9 is that the sentence currently in the article is better; why argue about a change when there's nothing wrong with the current version? I originally assumed good faith that there was a problem with conflict, but since a tiny amount of research showed that to be nothing other than your unsubstantiated personal opinion, further discussion doesn't seem productive (to me, anyone else, of course, is welcome to keep talking).
Qwyrxian (
talk)
02:30, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
There was no editor-consensus generated for the addition of (s), yet User:Sitush simply assumes that is the NPOV and directly makes the change in the article !!!. User Qw does not question it either!!! wheras to others users he directs ”Should you edit the article to follow one of your alternatives, we'll revert you” even when it was wnwarranted . This behavior of these two-editors in this specific context is completely unacceptable and gives an impression to other Users that there is a partisan behavior. Assuming good faith, i want to consider that this behavior is not along the lines that is described in
WP:GANG. I therefore kindly request User:Sitush to immeeiately revert the addition of (s) and try consensus-building here before doing so. We donot want to generate an impression that certain Users can circumvent the process of consensus-building. Thanks in advance. VS
Vettakkorumakansnehi (
talk)
12:55, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
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Some body has been taking very keen intrest in defining a Nair as a shudra. This is prominantly done by people who don't understand what a shudra is.Let me explain.
1.According to Manu Smrithi, a Brahman is forbidden to give advice or even food to a Sudra, for the ghi (clarified butter) having been offered to the gods, must not be eaten by him. Further, the Brahman must not give 'spiritual counsel to him,' nor inform him of the legal expiation of his sin.The Veda is never to be read in the presence of a Sudra, and for him no sacrifice is to be performed. He has no business with solemn rites But Nairs on the otherhand went to temples two times a day. A nambuthiri would do prayer for Nair and also would provide "theertha and prasada" to a Nair.Touching a nambuthiri was forbident inside the temple but outside it was never an issue.
2.Nairs we mainly a martial group like Rajputs.NO other lower caste were allowed in Army.
3.Nairs had a prominant social status in the country.
I request the administrator to consider my request kindly. Its ok not to honour a nair but kindly don't dishonour him like this.Please remove the usage of shudra from your site as you can see that its never used against any community in any of wikipedia subjects.Its is deeply derrogatorry. Somebody who doesn't understand the history and sacrifices and contributions made by Nairs to Kerala is taking keen interest in dishounering them. Please take a nuetral stand. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nritop1983 ( talk • contribs) 08:49, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
Kearal Society in the past was divided into two.Basically "Avarnar" and "Savarnar".Avarnar were basically lower cast people who were not allowed to enter the temple and savarnars who could enter a temple.The definition of Shudra fits avarnar.some sections of Nairs were under avarnars. The points i stated 1.2.3. are supported in many books including Gough. To answer your third point ,could you point me to any other article in Wikipedia where any other group have been mentioned as shudra other than Nairs. the mere fact that ihas been objected so many times..shows how objectionable this particular usage has been. So i request you again either Kindly point me to any other social group mentioned as shudra or have the kindness to remove that usage. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nritop1983 ( talk • contribs) 01:23, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
Thank You for pointing out 28 articles.I went through all of them ,i could find only two articles listing the term shudra in them.And also i was quite sad to find Nairs inside a group of Scheduled caste(28 listings).Though according to Gov.of India Nairs are considered as forward caste and not scheduled class. Again i put my request forward on basis of below citation from Kathleen Gough in her book "Matrilineal Kinship" (page 308,309). "so far i could discover they were as follows first, a caste called Kiriyathil Nayars in Calicut and Vellayma Nayars in Cochin.Most village headmen were drawn from this caste,... Second, a caste called Purathu Nayars (outdoor retainers).A special higher ranking subdivision of the caste called Paricha Menons (leaders of the Sheild) formed the Zamorins(kings) private army.. Third,a caste called Agathhu Charna Nayars(Indoor retainers)..they were often Clerks in palaces.. Fourth,Pallichan Nayars..these men were often palanquin beares and also soldiers. Fifth,a caste called Sudra Nayars and Iilathu Shudra Nayars....these members lived in villages owned by Brahman families or in estates of Brahmanical temples...."
I would like to remind you agian that the term Shudra is quite s drrogatory term in India.Even the scheduled caste and tribes don't want themselves to be called as such.There are more than a hundred shudra group in India and you will find none of them willing to call themselves as one.There fore they edit their page and remove the term.But you don't understand the shame in it and with no sympathy put a group of people (15 - 20percent of kerala population) into this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nritop1983 ( talk • contribs) 07:45, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
Thank You for the time and patience. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nritop1983 ( talk • contribs) 20:56, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
Is there a possibility to atleast change the Shudra callout to "Savarna Shudra". Since when people outside Kerala read this article they would normally compare Nairs to Shudras in North India..and in litratures of many scholars it is specifically mentioned that such a comparisson would be incorrect. (unsigned by User:182.48.204.176)
For Nritop and the IPs who have posted, if you would like to see the text changed there's a very simple way to make this more likely:
For anyone wanting changes, it is incumbent on the requestor to provide evidence. One simply can't demand that others "do the research" and make the changes for you. If your changes are supported by scholarly texts, your argument is much stronger if you can succinctly present those; note that does not mean dumping a series of gBooks link on the page and saying "read all of these and see I'm right" (as has happened on many caste pages). Further, note that current content is properly cited, so if you have an objection it needs to be clearer than "Book 1 say A and Book 2 says B; I think B is right so let's use Book 2". You must have a clear argument as to why WP editors are misusing or misunderstanding Book 1, or why Book 1 is not a good source.
The people who wrote the current version of the article have provided proper citations and clear arguments for what they've included, so the same is needed to further upgrade the article. MatthewVanitas ( talk) 13:50, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
My concern is that a totally different kind of caste system was observed in south India. This being mixed by the caste system of the north by the colonist had lead to a big confusion. Moreover the government of India describes Nair's as a forward Caste. Nair's dont enjoy any kind of reservation in any way. Why should they be considered a backward caste then? FYI Shudra's are backward castes.
Just leave the caste details and only cover the points well explained. Why not keep the article short and sweet ?
Clearly something is missing here.
to start with not enough research has been conducted on the history of india itself - not to talk about the specific history of nairs. part of this history is that which is passed on from a generation to the next, which while potentially not completely true is an honest representation of facts.
almost all of the written history of kerala and by association the nairs has been lost (from being in the sole and exclusive possession of the kingly scribes) owing to invasions and colonisations, what is remaining is in the possession of the trvancore royal family and can be examined if one has the patience and the willingness to face the truth.
clearly most of this article is based on opinion, albeit educated opinion and mostly western sources. i do not understand the logic of excluding Panikker's position. this in my mind abounds to racism in a way, potentially assuming that panikker is less accomplished because he is not western in origin.
in a recent geneological study by the ragiv gandhi institute of bio technology, the nair genetics point to a journey from around Iran through north and central india later arriving in kerala, the wide spread casts of similar nature, the bunts, the naidu's the nayaks, the naykar etc are all very close together and are spread out from the same genetic pool, in the first instance, while the whole question of the dravidian is some what unclear, assuming that the nairs are dravidians given current definitions of the word is at best a conjecture
again a simple comparison of the languages of the nairs, the naidus, the rayas and raos, the reddy's etc to tamil indicates the prevalence of sanskrit to a large extent in the those languages. even for a group like the naikar in tamil nadu, the tamil they speak is entirely different and has many more sanskrit words and grammatical constructions relative to pure tamil.
it is also clearly well known that the nairs were martial; for generations families have told their children to "fear not the spilling of blood for it is with blood that we have irrigated this land" and then a quip "more of theirs than ours"
i only request that the bias is removed and a more open attitude is practiced about the edits . that said i have not edited any of this matter any time
i am hoping some one could do some proper work on this
best joe — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.127.7.82 ( talk) 08:07, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
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Wrong information given. Many of the statements given in the entry are wrong are not mentioned in the linked sources. These statements are demeaning to the caste and maligns their status. These mistakes have also been protected by the author. Changes must be made with full proof references Myth 90 ( talk) 18:39, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
Traditionally all Upper caste of kerala (brahmins,ambalavasi,good section of nairs) were vegeterians. pls edit this.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.83.55.248 ( talk) 07:05, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
Hi,
The final block in the overview mentions worship of a snake, a dravidian custom. However it needs to be corrected. The fact mentioned is Nairs worshipped snakes. The reference is totally misinterpreted. It is nowhere written that snake worship is a dravidian custom. Please correct it.
Nairs ere or dravidians who worshiped snakes, not the dravidians in general. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bidett ( talk • contribs) 20:33, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
The source only mentions that Nair's are south Indians who had a custom of worshiping snakes. It never mentioned that all south Indians worship snakes. Ex: You are a human named Sitush. It doesn't mean humans are named Sitush :) No offense I am just explaining. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JeeHuan1023 ( talk • contribs) 14:49, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
Stemming from the discussion above with the admin Qwyrxian I suggest removal of the 16th century portrait by Jan Huyghen van Linschoten secretary to the Archbishop of Goa João Vicente da Fonseca, O.P.1582–1587 . Intothefire ( talk) 17:25, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
This history is totally biased, baseless and an attempt to degrade and depict Nairs as some tribals in kerala. I object this with full energy. The image selected for this article doesnt seems to be with a good taste. I would request Editors/Admins to replace the image with any of the following ones which seem much better :
1)Nayer women at meal : http://digitallibrary.usc.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15799coll123/id/5403/rec/1
OR
2)Nayer Girl in Malabar http://digitallibrary.usc.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15799coll123/id/24642/rec/9
OR
3)Nayer Girls Singing Song http://digitallibrary.usc.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15799coll123/id/22744/rec/5
OR
4)Nayer Temple in Malabar http://digitallibrary.usc.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15799coll123/id/5254/rec/12
OR
5)Nayer House in Malabar http://digitallibrary.usc.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15799coll123/id/36012/rec/10
Hoping a kind and positive response. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JeeHuan1023 ( talk • contribs) 10:54, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
It is also postulated that the Nayars of Malabar originally migrated from the Tulu nadu as noted here: Manual of Madras Administration Vol II (printed in 1885) notes that the Nadavas are the same people as the Nayars of Malabar and the Bunts of Southern Tulu nadu. 'They appear to have entered Malabar from the North rather than the South and to have peopled first the Tulu, and then the Malayalam country. They were probably the off-shoot of some colony in the Konkan or the Deccan. In Malabar and south of Kanara as far as Kasargod, they are called Nayars and their language is Malayalam. From Kasargod to Brahmavar, they are termed as Bunts and speak Tulu. To the north of Brahmavar, they are called Nadavars, and they speak Kanarese.' — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.99.183.138 ( talk) 16:48, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
The other pictures provided a traditional view of Nair Women. The current picture is of a semi nude girl whereas the remaining are pictures with women in their traditional clothing. They also give an aura of the surrounding at that point of time. I also suggest adding image depicting the Nair housing and other prominent shades instead of just showing the women.
Hope you understand what i am meaning to say. Thanks a lot for your time. JeeHuan1023 ( talk) 19:45, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
JeeHuan1023 ( talk) 09:16, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
HI Jee Huan ( talk and QWYRXIAN Qwyrxian, why do you need permission from Sitush for everything ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.211.66.59 ( talk) 07:53, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
@ Qwyrxian Please do the honor and replace the image with the new one. I dont think Jee Huan is available since long. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.228.62.132 ( talk) 14:49, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
Lets remove all the disputed points and keep it short and sweet. Have a list of reliable authors for R&D. I moved the previous out of the title because it makes it very difficult to leave a full edit summary. Qwyrxian ( talk) 04:08, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
Although editors claim that not much have been recorded about the history of the Nairs, this article is pretty huge compared to other articles based on remaining surnames of India.
What I propose we should do :
1) Remove all the disputed points which has issues. 2) Lets make sure there is no ambiguity in this article. 3) I have noted that some suggestions by certain people are totally valid, why not listen to them ? The snake worship being put up as a 'dravidian custom' as pointed out by many. It is totally useless. The Nairs are specially known for snake worship and custom. Why is it generalized ? Not fair at all! 4) Nairs are not shudras. A lot of kings were Nair's. It is more of a title. And the caste system which never existed in Kerala, how can that be enforced. Most of this articles is unfair and will be removed upon auditing. The caste system is totally based on the work: Nairs are warriors and warriors alone. The foreigners coming up and guessing things is unreliable.
FINALLY; I propose the editors give a list of reliable authors so that others can do research by themselves and provide valuable input.
Keeping watch on it!!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by FindingSolace ( talk • contribs)
I would be grateful if you could list those points made in the article that you consider to be ambiguous or disputed, aside from the shudra and snake issues, which have been discussed to death. As far as Nairs being kings is concerned, sure, some held high rank as the article says but you cannot extrapolate that all Nairs were therefore kshatriya or whatever. Most clearly were not, otherwise there would have been many thousands of kingdoms, the reliable sources would say so and those same sources would acknowledge that the caste system of Kerala was of the four-division variety found elsewhere in India when, in fact, we have an entire article explaining that it was not and indeed was a "lunatic asylum of castes" (Swami Vivekananda).-- 2.219.218.79 ( talk) 22:35, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
Manusmrithi segregated the Cast System based on function. As per function Nairs were primarily Warriors. So naturally Nairs should be regarded as Kshatriyas.Other than showing their palms to the believers for alms.. what is the contribution of Brahmins in Kerala History, on the other side nairs fought wars.. many books describe their valour and courage. Namboothiri brahmins were a minority (less than 2 percent)..census show that..yet Wikipedia boasts that they considered Nairs as shudras. Let manusmrithi go to hell and "sitush"smrithi prevail. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.236.244.22 ( talk) 14:49, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
Is there any higher authority we could write to .. or is it you two or three guys are running the show on "as i think" concept.Beacause you guys have put an article which totaly tries to demean Nairs, I went through some of the writers mentioned in this article ... their books show great respect towards this community.. they all describe about the courage and warrior status of Nairs..but here you guys have extracted some portions of each book and then presented a consice impresice report on Nair community..targetting only on some aspects which would be considerered improper from todays point of veiw and have totally neglected the whole idea that the Nairs were primarily Warriors. You guys have used wikipedia to potray your anger and hatred against Nairs..putting up pictures which disgace Nairs, using potraits when real good pictures were available.and that too potraits by british hired people..who were specifically keen in undermining the local traditions , so that they could potray those communities as barbaric and justify their act of looting and illeagal occupation on a foreign land. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.236.244.22 ( talk) 02:54, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
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I would request you to recheck the validity of Putting Nair in Shudra Caste. Besides some books written by western and indian historians who have clubbed Nair to Shudra Caste had no valid backings except showing some similiarities with other lower castes in Kerla which is hypocritical. Besides, nobody consulted people representing the Nair Community or Nair Service Society which is sole Social Organisation representing Nairs before writing such article.
I do not have evidences or proofs, but there are many cultural, day to day and behavioural similiarities of Nair to Nambudiris(Kerala Brahmins) and Verma(Kshatriya Kings). In fact, I have read an article of a Historian where he refers Vermas Of Kerala having origin in Nair Community.
Since Kerala Nambudiris always referred Castes below them as Shudras in which Vermas and Ambalavasis also come, there is no justification seen in Clubbing Nair in Shura Caste which specifically means Lower Caste.
It is a fact that Nair belongs to Kshatriya Community not just because they dealt with war and ammunitions, but lived, behaved as well. Besides there are Historical Evidences also which shows that this Community migrated to South India specifically to Karnataka and Kerala during 4 AD to 6. AD.
So pls update Nair community description and Club it into Kshatriya Caste in Wikipedia. Pls do contact NSS (Nair Service Society) for any further clarifications.
115.111.124.130 ( talk) 10:52, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
I have been following this page since many Years.. and I have noticed that some people who hold the rights to edit this page are biased and use bits and pieces of information from books of Paniker and Kathleen Gough to portray Nairs as some "Dirty Caste". The fore front of this group is "Sitush". Wikipedia should see the number of request coming for edits (over the years). It’s unfortunate that there is no auditing body that audits the information provided in this page. They just see if this particular portion is mentioned in any book, they do not validate how authentic is that information provided in the book. For instance it’s mentioned that Nampoothiris over ranked even the kings and they regarded all Nairs as Shudra. From where did they get this information….. If its mentioned by Gough, who approved it, Does any of the scriptures mention this phrase. No body knows in what context Gough said this and how was it validated.In contrast to this Panicker states Nairs as Caste group similar to Kshatriya.. Both of the writers are have no proofs in their books yet for some reason have been called shudras indirectly. Now what Wikipedia has done is they have published this information and people all over the world who don't know the status of Nair’s in Kerala will start thinking Nair’s as Shudras, when its repeatedly said in many books that the Quadrilateral system of Caste division was not followed in Kerala and it relied more on Avarnar and Savarnar Based division of Caste. Caste system is a reality in India ..even today..Intercaste maariages are considered Taboo... and in this phase they call Nairs as Shudras..Totally derogating them. Nairs gave their blood and life in protecting this State.. but the way it has been described in this article ... their souls will never forgive those who wrote this page. Think what nambuthiris and Bhramins have contributed to this state….. noting ...they have simply taken alms and offering from other people and carried out their lively hoods by exploiting "fear of God" in people’s mind.. their gene pool itself is a Sham and Shame in that context. Wikipedia should remove the line "The Nambudiri Brahmins were at the top of the ritual caste hierarchy and in that system outranked even the kings. They regarded all Nairs as sudra. Below the Nambudiris came the Tamil Brahmins and other later immigrants of the Brahmin varna. Beyond this" stated under the paragraph "Caste System" or retain it if their is proof for Kathleen Gough's Statement. Wikipedia should understand the reality in India .. calling A Caste as Shudra is a real Shame.. no other philosophy will work here.. Peoples life depend on this.. especially people who are in love..in which boy or a girl is a Nair.. all these times ..Nairs were respected and with this article people will start avoiding alliances with Nairs..They will be degraded..people like sitush will get happiness through this.. but the causalities of this statement is far reaching (than you imagine).. Please consider this request seriously..Kindly remove the line "The Nambudiri Brahmins were at the top of the ritual caste hierarchy and in that system outranked even the kings. They regarded all Nairs as sudra. Below the Nambudiris came the Tamil Brahmins and other later immigrants of the Brahmin varna. Beyond this" stated under the paragraph "Caste System" or retain it if there is proof for Kathleen Gough's Statement...any scriptures that authenticate her statement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.236.244.22 ( talk) 17:37, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
Caste Systems are subset of Religion..Specially in the Case of Hinduism..for example Manusmrithi is the code for all caste based divisions ..I donot understand when you are are not able to provide substantial proof of your claim..wouldn't that be considered as a biased action to publish that statement. My question is simple "if a writer sees a cat and writes in his book that its a cow..would you go ahead and use that information or you restrain yourself and say "i dont know what that animal is... this particular writer thinks its a cow"..and this task becomes complicated when there is another writer writer who say its a cat..So now as an unbiased publisher wouldn't is be correct if you say in your article.."There are multiple opinion about the category of this creature.. some say it belongs to Cat family some say it belong to cow family.." For your reference i have copy pasted a section of "The Indian Empire Census of 1881 Statistics of Population Vol. II." Here the Nairs and Sudras are reffered under different categories.Showing that the government didnot consider Nairs as Sudras.
web page: http://www.chaf.lib.latrobe.edu.au/dcd/page.php?title=&record=566
CASTE-SUDRA; TOTAL 339355 166483 172872 CASTE-SUDRA; BENGAL 186467 90606 95861 CASTE-SUDRA; COCHIN 152871 75868 77003 CASTE-SUDRA; HYDERABAD 17 9 8 CASTE-VANIAN; TOTAL 339136 168029 171107 CASTE-VANIAN; MADRAS 316610 156882 159728 CASTE-VANIAN; TRAVANCORE 22526 11147 11379 CASTE-NAIR; TOTAL 336227 162881 173346 CASTE-NAIR; COORG 907 845 62 CASTE-NAIR; MADRAS — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.236.244.22 ( talk) 08:41, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
Well I should say that wikipedia it totally flawed. It doesnt respect the primary document but if a secondary document derives a false interpretation its totally reliable. Absurd!!!! And government articles are not reliable ? Really ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.229.76.160 ( talk) 13:14, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
So you have decided that British census is only good in numbers and not reliable for determining the status of the people. Qwarxian this is Human Rights Violation against a group of people who unfortunately have to go outside Kerala for work..(for your infomation..Kerala was declared the least employed state in the country.. but the most educated)as many have mentioned Sudras are given a totally different status in rest of India.Nairs are not extinct group Qwarxian... they are very much alive and wikipedia which most of the India would read..would see Nairs as Sudras..Can this be put into catagory for calling the present generation as Sudras and thus being denied "Right of Equality" in India. Is wikipedia ignoring the fact that Caste system is taken seriously even today in India. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.236.244.22 ( talk) 22:48, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
Profile created III-XII -- QueSeraCera ( talk) 18:49, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
Hello Qwyrxian ,
Following up from our recent discussion on your talk page with regard to your stand as an admin and actions therein on what I consider the contradictory position or ambiguity of when a source is deemed reliable , on this page the main picture is a painting by a 16th century European traveler . But on 17th November 2011 you
"Undid revision 461091826 by Vineet Nayar1 (talk) the lead should only have one image; howveer, consider moving it elswhere if verified" .Did you in the capacity of an admin consider
Jan_Huyghen_van_Linschoten a 16th century painting reliable a source for the main pictorial on the Nairs ? When you
Conscientiously deleted the picture by Raja Ravi Verma ...did the credentials of this one simply miss your attention or you concurred that this 16th century picture was fine .Many caste articles like this one where you have intervened have these colonial pictures of "natives" . Would appreciate your rational for leaving this picture intact when you deleted the other .
Picture | Contributed to wikipedia by | Introduced into this article by | Source of this picture |
---|---|---|---|
![]() |
KondottySultan KondottySultan is a sockpuppet of User:Nair [1] [2] |
User Nair on 27October 2011 | This 16th century portrait is taken from a historical account by Portuguese traveler and historian Jan Huyghen van Linschoten (1562-1611). Read the complete summary on File page The King of Cochin riding on an Elephant, attended by his Nairs.jpg page |
Thanks for your reply Intothefire ( talk) 11:28, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
The image mentioned above was contributed by Kondothy Sultan found to be a sockpuppet of user Nair who himself was a user who created a profile name called nair itself and used it to malign the whole caste/race/title. Its suspiscious how his contributions were readily accepted by the admins.
-- QueSeraCera ( talk) 18:58, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
This picture is the oppening immage for the Entire Article and as mentioned it was painted by Jan Huyghen van Linschoten.IN his another painting Fusta , he himself calls the malabares as Enemies. And for some reason the painting done by this very person is displayed upfront. Its similar to a potrait of America by Osama bin Laden being put in an Article for America..that too as a head mast. So can this image be removed until a neutral picture from a neutral person is obtained. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.236.244.22 ( talk) 19:29, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
Wikipedia is
not a battleground to fight whatever cultural war you're trying to pursue. If you have reliably sourced information that you want to add, please start a new section and then provide it and your source, and it will be evaluated according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If you don't like those policies, you can either try get them changed, or you can edit another website.
Qwyrxian (
talk)
09:37, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
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I have recently seen one post by someone at the end of this page. But admins are removing this. A history explain a destructive nature by the admins. I just created an account seeing this. We need to restore our page to give clarity to the users. See the history here: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Nair&action=history And here is the original content deleted by the admins!!! <redacted> — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kvn nair ( talk • contribs)
But this clearly is not our history. We have a proud history for years. But only things highlighted here are the negative side. And those are really rarely seen. Take the achievers in Kerala. Atleast in south Kerala, I can say that out of 100 achievers, 90 are from our community. Kvn nair ( talk) 14:25, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
Problem here is almost everything written here doesn't reflect our history. These are written biased just to tarnish our image. And I can see that few of the admins(Atleast Sitush) is not accepting the sources referred by many of our editors. Kvn nair ( talk) 15:50, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
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Nayars are not a caste, but a race with its numerous sub-castes and surnames. Nayars can be found in all walks of life. They are aware of their cultural traditions and history and form an integral and active part of Kerala society. Nayars are the Savarna Hindus who constituted the warriors, landed gentry and yeoman of Kerala. [1]
Qwyrxian you dont have the right to classify a book as old and reference as irrelevant because you are not a historian.Please try to stay within your bounds. and if your real motivation was "Scientific" tell me what biological distinction creates a "Caste System"
You might have all the books at your desk but try getting out sometime and even visiting Kerala. You have been obsessed with this page for years. Thanks for pointing out to us how sources of information are controlled by Europeans with their refusal to accept any local historic account. This garbage page will one day create a huge controversy in India. Congratulations because then you would have finally arrived. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.232.169.156 ( talk) 23:26, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
I've been through this article and it is very cluttered.
To begin with the lead talks about the 'snakes' in Nair compund ?
The main point to be noted is that Nairs were not a race that got extinct. THey still live and hence the article hould be about nairs in general. What I have seen is this article describes how nayars lived at one point of time. Comeon guys. It's a human caste/race/title and not dinosaurs.
I suggest please remove all unwanted points and add up only the important points.
-- QueSeraCera ( talk) 18:35, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
I have no idea what points you consider to be "unwanted", although I could probably hazard a guess based on the numerous past discussions here. It would be worth your while trying to have a read through the archives for this talk page before letting us know what you consider to be "unwanted" - you may find that it has been dealt with in the recent past. Thanks. - Sitush ( talk) 20:55, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
I agree this is an encyclopedia, but that doesn't mean that Nairs should be treated as Australopithecus. I am a Nair and After reading this article I feel like converting into some other religion. I don't know who has edited this.Non sense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.96.127.140 ( talk) 16:27, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
Regardless of what this page says, Nairs are basically warriors..This page is POV against Nairs.Just ignore for time being.Some people arebasically trying to potray Nairs as bunch of crooks.
There are many books which narrate the courage and valor of Nairs.But this page toatally deviates from addressing what the primary function of Nairs was..and addresses some of the social aspects which was common in the past but seen as "bad" in the present day.
People like Sitush get a peacefull sleep by doing things like this..and they do this simply beacuse they can..there is basically nobody(no panel) to judge them. These people want to potray Nairs as Shudras..but we know its like saying Lion is a cat..But unfortunately they are trying to put both of them together in a single cage..the cage of Indian Caste system.And people who know the entire piccture understand how silly this is.
Nairs belong to Kerala..everybody there knows what they are..i think even you know that..that's why like all of us you also got offended by this page..But i would suggest that you understand that we fought, gave life, took lives to protect our country.. Out of 100 famous personalities from kerala 90 would be nairs..if you doubt it check it.. I have even seen a funny reply where these people say that Mohanlal is not a Nair..This page has many bull craps like these..ignore those. ...Remember that you have a warrior blood..just be sure that you honor it all the time. Why our history is being controlled by few admins here? Please restore the wiki to its original state soon Kvn nair ( talk) 14:23, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
Dont give us this crap of "Sanctions threat".If you go through the Archives from 2004, you will find only oppositions to whatever "pile of waste" you guys have posted here. If you had commonsence you would have understood long back that the article which you have segregated here doesnot matchup with reality.the shear volume of oppositions from the community (from 2004) is a testimonial to this,. And is there any other "Caste group" which is controlled like this.The so called "fact" have been taken from sources from the colonial period where the authers have taken some bad behavior within a minortiy group and the you guys took bits and peices and projected it as a mojority group Behaviou. And the saddest part in all this is there is no well qualified historian from Kerala in this commity who has audited this.And for your information the colonial writers were never here to "Praise about INDIA" their main objective was to show Indians as some lunatics or savages,and hence justify their encroachment and plunder to the masses of England.
The whole article amounts to defamation. I can understand telling the truth to caste myths. But this whole entry reads like an exercise in verbal diarrhea filled with things that have nothing to do with reality. This has clearly been written by people who have no real idea about what they are writing about except for what they have read in some books, which invariably have to be written by White people for authenticity in their eyes. They refuse Nair sources claiming that they are biased. It is like refusing Jewish sources for anything related to Jews. It makes no sense but the few people who control this page keep on doing it. Whether well-meaning or not, this entry depicts a Eurocentric point of view.
This page has to be brought to the attention of the NSS. This joke has go on for far too long. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.232.169.156 ( talk) 23:22, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
The article on the whole has a negative conotation. In the diet section it says ' In the modern day, alcohol is a component of Nair-dominated festivals in Kerala;. Which are the nair dominated festivals of kerala? Veluthedathu, Vilakkithala nairs are people who did the laundry and hair cutting for nairs and does not come under the nair caste. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.63.162.99 ( talk) 14:29, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
1."Today, the government of India does not treat the Nair community as a single entity "-- Is there any reference for this statement? can it please be mentioned in the article?
2.The write up --Christophe Jaffrelot believes that the NSS stands in contrast to the All-India Yadav Mahasabha (AIYM), another caste association, since the NSS desired "emancipation" and saw sanskritisation as "a means of reconciling low ritual status with growing socio-economic assertiveness and of taking the first steps towards an alternative, Dravidian identity", whereas the AIYM sought to subvert from within the existing case system.[47]
In this reference 47 ( India's Silent Revolution: The Rise of the Lower Castes) there is no mention about NSS.There does not seem to be a AIYM either.Does All India Yadav mahasabha exist? Any details of AIYM? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.242.166.85 ( talk) 16:29, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
So many people find this whole entry complete garbage. NSS has most of its support in Central Travancore in 1975? It's 2013 now. Any idea how it is going now? Or are you waiting for another book from a European author? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.232.169.156 ( talk) 23:29, 1 June 2013 (UTC) And btw alcohol consumption is rampant in Kerala in every community. That doesn't mean that they are officially part of any "Nair-dominated festival" (whatever that means because there aren't any such ones where people of all Hindu castes don't participate). But reality doesn't matter in wikipedia when it comes to the lives of dark-skinned natives. Only citations matter. This is clearly an attack on the community and will be seen in serious light. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.232.169.156 ( talk) 23:37, 1 June 2013 (UTC)