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If we wish to take the view that the term "mutilation" is pejorative rather than simply descriptive, a lot more than circumcision will have to be removed from this article. Any tribal practice of body modification, for example, could not be considered mutilation because as a pejorative it is POV. Female genital cutting would also have to be removed, and so on. I would propose that we stick to the descriptive form "excision of functional tissue" and that the language of the article be edited to reflect that. Tomyumgoong 01:31, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
The descriptions of "some authors" do not make the position that a body part is not functional established fact. Most authors, and all western pediatric associations respect the functionality of the foreskin in their discussion of circumcisison. Perhaps there is something to be gained in removing that function in some circumstances, as we see in the sole study of AIDS and circumcision in AIDS ridden africa. However, as the sole tissue in the penis with a concentration of the specialized sensory modalities it comprises, the tissue is functional. "Vestigial" is highly pov given modern scholarship. Tomyumgoong 07:58, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
The article should make a distinction among willing body modification, as might happen by adults in various tribes, and unconsented mody modification such as neonatal circumcision and female genital cutting and the amputation of limbs by African warring parties. Both are broadly "mutilation" but have a distinct prominence. Tomyumgoong 08:05, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Right then. It is a Point of View that any body part is vestigial. It is also incorrect to say that the foreskin lacks function, as it is mucosal. Moreover, the article already (over)states the fact that there is some oppositition to the idea that circumcision is mutilation. What is the problem? Tomyumgoong 21:14, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Some tribes practice ritual mutilation, frequently in the form of circumcision, as part of an initiation ritual.
I've removed the frequently in the form of circumcision until we can find reference justifying singling out circumcision in initiation rituals. I have no idea if this is the most frequent form of initiation rite - I must admit I thought it was tattoos but I could very well be wrong. I'll have a look for a quote later but if others have any I would appreciate the saving of time as real life is in full flow today! Soph ia Gilraen of Dorthonion 07:03, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Tomyumgoong,
I'm temporarily removing the following contested sentence, since we seem unable to agree on it.
Your version:
There are several problems with your version:
Jakew 18:32, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
I like it that someone put docking here. -- Yancyfry jr 02:32, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
I do not know where this should be but am placing it here for easy retrieval by interested persons. This was removed from docking, when it clearly didn't belong. Merge here or at a more appropriate article? Quill 06:14, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
In times when even judicial physical punishment was still commonly allowed to cause not only intense pain and public humiliation during the administration but also to inflict permanent physical damage, or even deliberately intended to mark the criminal for life by maiming or branding, one of the common anatomical target areas not normally under permanent cover of clothing (so particularly merciless in the long term) were the ears.
In England, for example, various pamleteers attacking the religious views of the Anglican epsicopacy under William Laud, the Archbishop of Canterbury, had their ears cut off for those writings, e.g. in 1630 Dr. Alexander Leighton and in 1637 still other Puritans, John Bastwick, Henry Burton and William Prynne.
In Scotland one of the Covenanters, James Gavin of Douglas, Lanarkshire, had his ears cut off for refusing to renounce his religious faith.
Especially in various jurisdictions of colonial British North America, even relatively minor crimes, such as hog stealing, were punishable by having the ears nailed to the pillory and slit loose, or even completely cropped; a counterfeiter would be branded on top (for that crime, considered lèse majesté, the older mirror punishment was boiling in oil).
Independence did not as such render American justice any less bloody. For example in future Tennessee, an example of harsh 'frontier law' under the 1780 Cumberland Compact was 1793 in when Judge John McNairy sentenced Nashville's first horse thief, John McKain, Jr., to be fastened to a wooden stock one hour for 39 lashes, and have his ears cut off and cheeks branded with the letter "H" and "T".
An example from a non-western culture is Nebahne Yohannes, an unsuccesfull claimant to the Ethiopian imperial throne, who had ears and nose cut off but was then released.
I have reverted the following addition to the article's second paragraph:
There are several problems with this addition.
While it is doubtless true that some people view FGC and circumcision as mutilation, the article is not an exhaustive list of procedures that at least one person views as mutilation. Indeed, such a list might constitute undue weight in cases where we concentrate on the few who view procedure X as mutilation rather than those who do not. This article is about the concept of mutilation, and specific procedures are valuable when they help explain this concept, but it is not essential to include them all. Wikipedia is not a soapbox, and there is no particular reason why Wikipedia needs to note the fact that some people hold this view. We need to consider two things: a) does inclusion benefit the reader's understanding of the concept, and b) is it compatible with WP:NPOV?
Another problem is the implication that the world can be divided into two groups: those who view FGC and circumcision as mutilation, and those who view neither as mutilation. But of course many people regard FGC as mutilation but do not consider circumcision to be mutilation. The fact that both are given as examples of "involuntary genital modification" adds to this problem, reinforcing the idea that these are members of an indivisible class, and oddly suggesting that whether a procedure is voluntary or not is a critical factor. Jakew ( talk) 12:38, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
So let us make the article more, rather than less exhaustive Tomyumgoong ( talk) 03:59, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
As many cultures, and a large portion of extant humanity, consider involuntary circumcision a removal of efficacious tissue, and in some cases a latent mark of slavery, it is certainly due mention as mutilation insofar as it is considered by some cultures. A fair and encylopedic dialogue would include any mention you might conjur. The lack of other contributions does not make the inclusion of the widespread view of circumcision as ablating function less encyclopedic.
If you have an agenda, you are not being a good editor.
Tomyumgoong ( talk) 04:07, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
I have readded Male circumcision and Female genital cutting to the article under the list of procedures some consider mutilation. Previous discussions have stated that runs afoul of Wikipedia's POV policies but I think it is clear that is not the case.
The definition of the word mutilation according to http://www.thefreedictionary.com is:
1. to injure by tearing or cutting off a limb or essential part; maim
2. to damage a book or text so as to render it unintelligible
3. to spoil or damage severely
The penis is injured when the foreskin is cut off and the foreskin is clearly damaged severely. The AAP article I cited makes it clear that medical organizations do not recommend infant male circumcision for medical reasons, that they consider it a cosmetic cultural practice or religious practice.
I copied the AAP citation from the wiki entry on circumcision, unfortunately I could not find an AAP citation on the female genital cutting entry. 68.229.87.128 ( talk) 18:44, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
- 1. To disable or disfigure, usually by depriving of the use of a limb or other part of the body.
- 2. To make imperfect or defective; impair.
User:Blackworm has recently made several attempts ( [13] [14] [15]) to incorporate a reference to the 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica into this article.
The first two changes were especially problematic, as together with Denniston, they gave undue weight to the point of view that circumcision is a form of mutilation.
The last change, however, is also problematic, because it replaces Denniston with the 1911 source. Quoting Blackworm's edit summary, "Fine, get rid of Denniston -- the 1911 E.B. is a much stronger source, and properly shows the extent of the view". I disagree with this assessment, for several reasons:
"an act of physical injury that degrades the *appearance* or function of any living body".
Mmmm, but mutilation, say in the lex talionis, wasn't really about beauty. Moreover, mutilation it's not exactly an "act", it's more a loss. When the surgeon cut a limb doesn't think of beauty nor injure the wounded with the aim of degrading anything. Final observation: one can suffer mutilation by Nature or chance. I think that the french intro is quite good:
La mutilation est une perte partielle/totale d'un membre, d'un organe ou la destruction/dégradation partielle d'une ou plusieurs parties du corps sans cause intentionnelle de donner la mort. Le terme mutilation désigne également l'action de mutiler, c'est-à-dire, amputer avec violence ou détruire/dégrader partiellement une partie du corps. Les mutilations physiques peuvent être volontaires ou involontaires ; les mutilations font notamment partie des nombreuses séquelles laissées par les guerres. -- Pequod76 ( talk-ita.esp.eng) 20:16, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
It lacks academic integrity to hold such double standards and internal inaccuracies among your attempts at impartiality. Where something as literal and definitive as a word like "mutilation" is clearly defined, you people dance around weather or not to call circumcision (REGARDLESS OF GENDER) a mutilation is dishonest. There is a very clear definition, dictionaries are designed to accurately depict the meaning of words, to then claim you cannot call a mutilation, a mutilation, simply because you assert that it implies some sort of subjective and personalized point of view, is demonstrably false.
There is no academic pursuit to have these double standards where you can lay a post about the UN denouncing female circumcision as a mutilation (despite it being the literal definition) and then minimize male circumcision simply by saying its under constant academic debate...there is no academic debate, its FACTUAL, its LITERAL, its DEMONSTRABLE. For anyone with the slighest integrity for the english language and the use of this magical source called a dictionary, all form of ritual genital cutting fall into the category of mutilation.
It's a depressing reminder of how people lack this much integrity for intellectual discourse as to pandering to emotional investments in impartiality in order to miss the literal truth and demonstrable fact.
When clearly, there is already posted an impartial preference for female circumcision denounced as mutilation over male circumcision. Something THIS simple is laughably absurd to see argued among people who credit themselves as being intellectuals, philosophers sand linguists. What integrity do you people have left where you think arguing semantics will bring you closer to finding the demonstrable tautology that exists among figuring out of the exact definition of mutilation allows it to be considered a mutilation, since you automatically assert that calling it a mutilation denounces it as impartial.
Incredibly intellectually bankrupt.
It is not appropriate to have differing treatment of the subjects of male and female circumcision in this article. It is said that certain bodies have labelled female circumcision as a mutilation, but for male circumcision it is only said to be "a subject of active academic debate". Both issues are "a subject of debate" by different parties, but by any reasonable definition of mutilation, and according to mutilple major institutions, both forms of circumcision qualify.
A fair treatment in my opinion would be to acknowledge significant organizations that have categorized male circumcision as mutilation with no mention of whether there is "debate" about it. For example, the Danish Society for General Medicine has released such a statement calling it mutilation and "ethically unacceptable":
http://www.bt.dk/danmark/danske-laeger-omskaering-af-drenge-er-lemlaestelse http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/denmarks-29000-doctors-declare-circumcision-of-healthy_us_58753ec1e4b08052400ee6b3
Also worthy of note is that the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe has condemned male circumcision as a human rights violation:
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/male-circumcision-muslim-jewish-condemned-european-council-511200
I don't believe a citation is necessary for this. Mutilation is defined as the removal of a part causing an impairment of function. Foreskin has proven documented functions that are impaired when the organ is not present. Whether people prefer the experience of life with or without this impairment does not impact whether it is in fact an impairment of function and therefore defined as a mutilation.
Mentioning that there is a debate for one but not the other is telling of bias but I will not remove the existing citations pending further discussion of the proper way to address this. I will however be making an edit to the article to include the statements from Denmark and the European Council on the subject, I think that is the absolute least we can do to be remotely fair in this article. KhazWolf ( talk) 03:15, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
Dondrehuddl12 seems to have bowdlerized the links to the Araucanian warrior Galvarino. Nice joke, but I fixed them. — Tatzelbrumm ( talk) 20:17, 27 July 2019 (UTC)
Need a example picture of a mutilation, because i heard wikipedia is not censored. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Geanard ( talk • contribs) 13:43, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Mutilation article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
If we wish to take the view that the term "mutilation" is pejorative rather than simply descriptive, a lot more than circumcision will have to be removed from this article. Any tribal practice of body modification, for example, could not be considered mutilation because as a pejorative it is POV. Female genital cutting would also have to be removed, and so on. I would propose that we stick to the descriptive form "excision of functional tissue" and that the language of the article be edited to reflect that. Tomyumgoong 01:31, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
The descriptions of "some authors" do not make the position that a body part is not functional established fact. Most authors, and all western pediatric associations respect the functionality of the foreskin in their discussion of circumcisison. Perhaps there is something to be gained in removing that function in some circumstances, as we see in the sole study of AIDS and circumcision in AIDS ridden africa. However, as the sole tissue in the penis with a concentration of the specialized sensory modalities it comprises, the tissue is functional. "Vestigial" is highly pov given modern scholarship. Tomyumgoong 07:58, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
The article should make a distinction among willing body modification, as might happen by adults in various tribes, and unconsented mody modification such as neonatal circumcision and female genital cutting and the amputation of limbs by African warring parties. Both are broadly "mutilation" but have a distinct prominence. Tomyumgoong 08:05, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Right then. It is a Point of View that any body part is vestigial. It is also incorrect to say that the foreskin lacks function, as it is mucosal. Moreover, the article already (over)states the fact that there is some oppositition to the idea that circumcision is mutilation. What is the problem? Tomyumgoong 21:14, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Some tribes practice ritual mutilation, frequently in the form of circumcision, as part of an initiation ritual.
I've removed the frequently in the form of circumcision until we can find reference justifying singling out circumcision in initiation rituals. I have no idea if this is the most frequent form of initiation rite - I must admit I thought it was tattoos but I could very well be wrong. I'll have a look for a quote later but if others have any I would appreciate the saving of time as real life is in full flow today! Soph ia Gilraen of Dorthonion 07:03, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Tomyumgoong,
I'm temporarily removing the following contested sentence, since we seem unable to agree on it.
Your version:
There are several problems with your version:
Jakew 18:32, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
I like it that someone put docking here. -- Yancyfry jr 02:32, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
I do not know where this should be but am placing it here for easy retrieval by interested persons. This was removed from docking, when it clearly didn't belong. Merge here or at a more appropriate article? Quill 06:14, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
In times when even judicial physical punishment was still commonly allowed to cause not only intense pain and public humiliation during the administration but also to inflict permanent physical damage, or even deliberately intended to mark the criminal for life by maiming or branding, one of the common anatomical target areas not normally under permanent cover of clothing (so particularly merciless in the long term) were the ears.
In England, for example, various pamleteers attacking the religious views of the Anglican epsicopacy under William Laud, the Archbishop of Canterbury, had their ears cut off for those writings, e.g. in 1630 Dr. Alexander Leighton and in 1637 still other Puritans, John Bastwick, Henry Burton and William Prynne.
In Scotland one of the Covenanters, James Gavin of Douglas, Lanarkshire, had his ears cut off for refusing to renounce his religious faith.
Especially in various jurisdictions of colonial British North America, even relatively minor crimes, such as hog stealing, were punishable by having the ears nailed to the pillory and slit loose, or even completely cropped; a counterfeiter would be branded on top (for that crime, considered lèse majesté, the older mirror punishment was boiling in oil).
Independence did not as such render American justice any less bloody. For example in future Tennessee, an example of harsh 'frontier law' under the 1780 Cumberland Compact was 1793 in when Judge John McNairy sentenced Nashville's first horse thief, John McKain, Jr., to be fastened to a wooden stock one hour for 39 lashes, and have his ears cut off and cheeks branded with the letter "H" and "T".
An example from a non-western culture is Nebahne Yohannes, an unsuccesfull claimant to the Ethiopian imperial throne, who had ears and nose cut off but was then released.
I have reverted the following addition to the article's second paragraph:
There are several problems with this addition.
While it is doubtless true that some people view FGC and circumcision as mutilation, the article is not an exhaustive list of procedures that at least one person views as mutilation. Indeed, such a list might constitute undue weight in cases where we concentrate on the few who view procedure X as mutilation rather than those who do not. This article is about the concept of mutilation, and specific procedures are valuable when they help explain this concept, but it is not essential to include them all. Wikipedia is not a soapbox, and there is no particular reason why Wikipedia needs to note the fact that some people hold this view. We need to consider two things: a) does inclusion benefit the reader's understanding of the concept, and b) is it compatible with WP:NPOV?
Another problem is the implication that the world can be divided into two groups: those who view FGC and circumcision as mutilation, and those who view neither as mutilation. But of course many people regard FGC as mutilation but do not consider circumcision to be mutilation. The fact that both are given as examples of "involuntary genital modification" adds to this problem, reinforcing the idea that these are members of an indivisible class, and oddly suggesting that whether a procedure is voluntary or not is a critical factor. Jakew ( talk) 12:38, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
So let us make the article more, rather than less exhaustive Tomyumgoong ( talk) 03:59, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
As many cultures, and a large portion of extant humanity, consider involuntary circumcision a removal of efficacious tissue, and in some cases a latent mark of slavery, it is certainly due mention as mutilation insofar as it is considered by some cultures. A fair and encylopedic dialogue would include any mention you might conjur. The lack of other contributions does not make the inclusion of the widespread view of circumcision as ablating function less encyclopedic.
If you have an agenda, you are not being a good editor.
Tomyumgoong ( talk) 04:07, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
I have readded Male circumcision and Female genital cutting to the article under the list of procedures some consider mutilation. Previous discussions have stated that runs afoul of Wikipedia's POV policies but I think it is clear that is not the case.
The definition of the word mutilation according to http://www.thefreedictionary.com is:
1. to injure by tearing or cutting off a limb or essential part; maim
2. to damage a book or text so as to render it unintelligible
3. to spoil or damage severely
The penis is injured when the foreskin is cut off and the foreskin is clearly damaged severely. The AAP article I cited makes it clear that medical organizations do not recommend infant male circumcision for medical reasons, that they consider it a cosmetic cultural practice or religious practice.
I copied the AAP citation from the wiki entry on circumcision, unfortunately I could not find an AAP citation on the female genital cutting entry. 68.229.87.128 ( talk) 18:44, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
- 1. To disable or disfigure, usually by depriving of the use of a limb or other part of the body.
- 2. To make imperfect or defective; impair.
User:Blackworm has recently made several attempts ( [13] [14] [15]) to incorporate a reference to the 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica into this article.
The first two changes were especially problematic, as together with Denniston, they gave undue weight to the point of view that circumcision is a form of mutilation.
The last change, however, is also problematic, because it replaces Denniston with the 1911 source. Quoting Blackworm's edit summary, "Fine, get rid of Denniston -- the 1911 E.B. is a much stronger source, and properly shows the extent of the view". I disagree with this assessment, for several reasons:
"an act of physical injury that degrades the *appearance* or function of any living body".
Mmmm, but mutilation, say in the lex talionis, wasn't really about beauty. Moreover, mutilation it's not exactly an "act", it's more a loss. When the surgeon cut a limb doesn't think of beauty nor injure the wounded with the aim of degrading anything. Final observation: one can suffer mutilation by Nature or chance. I think that the french intro is quite good:
La mutilation est une perte partielle/totale d'un membre, d'un organe ou la destruction/dégradation partielle d'une ou plusieurs parties du corps sans cause intentionnelle de donner la mort. Le terme mutilation désigne également l'action de mutiler, c'est-à-dire, amputer avec violence ou détruire/dégrader partiellement une partie du corps. Les mutilations physiques peuvent être volontaires ou involontaires ; les mutilations font notamment partie des nombreuses séquelles laissées par les guerres. -- Pequod76 ( talk-ita.esp.eng) 20:16, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
It lacks academic integrity to hold such double standards and internal inaccuracies among your attempts at impartiality. Where something as literal and definitive as a word like "mutilation" is clearly defined, you people dance around weather or not to call circumcision (REGARDLESS OF GENDER) a mutilation is dishonest. There is a very clear definition, dictionaries are designed to accurately depict the meaning of words, to then claim you cannot call a mutilation, a mutilation, simply because you assert that it implies some sort of subjective and personalized point of view, is demonstrably false.
There is no academic pursuit to have these double standards where you can lay a post about the UN denouncing female circumcision as a mutilation (despite it being the literal definition) and then minimize male circumcision simply by saying its under constant academic debate...there is no academic debate, its FACTUAL, its LITERAL, its DEMONSTRABLE. For anyone with the slighest integrity for the english language and the use of this magical source called a dictionary, all form of ritual genital cutting fall into the category of mutilation.
It's a depressing reminder of how people lack this much integrity for intellectual discourse as to pandering to emotional investments in impartiality in order to miss the literal truth and demonstrable fact.
When clearly, there is already posted an impartial preference for female circumcision denounced as mutilation over male circumcision. Something THIS simple is laughably absurd to see argued among people who credit themselves as being intellectuals, philosophers sand linguists. What integrity do you people have left where you think arguing semantics will bring you closer to finding the demonstrable tautology that exists among figuring out of the exact definition of mutilation allows it to be considered a mutilation, since you automatically assert that calling it a mutilation denounces it as impartial.
Incredibly intellectually bankrupt.
It is not appropriate to have differing treatment of the subjects of male and female circumcision in this article. It is said that certain bodies have labelled female circumcision as a mutilation, but for male circumcision it is only said to be "a subject of active academic debate". Both issues are "a subject of debate" by different parties, but by any reasonable definition of mutilation, and according to mutilple major institutions, both forms of circumcision qualify.
A fair treatment in my opinion would be to acknowledge significant organizations that have categorized male circumcision as mutilation with no mention of whether there is "debate" about it. For example, the Danish Society for General Medicine has released such a statement calling it mutilation and "ethically unacceptable":
http://www.bt.dk/danmark/danske-laeger-omskaering-af-drenge-er-lemlaestelse http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/denmarks-29000-doctors-declare-circumcision-of-healthy_us_58753ec1e4b08052400ee6b3
Also worthy of note is that the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe has condemned male circumcision as a human rights violation:
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/male-circumcision-muslim-jewish-condemned-european-council-511200
I don't believe a citation is necessary for this. Mutilation is defined as the removal of a part causing an impairment of function. Foreskin has proven documented functions that are impaired when the organ is not present. Whether people prefer the experience of life with or without this impairment does not impact whether it is in fact an impairment of function and therefore defined as a mutilation.
Mentioning that there is a debate for one but not the other is telling of bias but I will not remove the existing citations pending further discussion of the proper way to address this. I will however be making an edit to the article to include the statements from Denmark and the European Council on the subject, I think that is the absolute least we can do to be remotely fair in this article. KhazWolf ( talk) 03:15, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
Dondrehuddl12 seems to have bowdlerized the links to the Araucanian warrior Galvarino. Nice joke, but I fixed them. — Tatzelbrumm ( talk) 20:17, 27 July 2019 (UTC)
Need a example picture of a mutilation, because i heard wikipedia is not censored. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Geanard ( talk • contribs) 13:43, 8 December 2021 (UTC)