This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 10 |
Since I get reverted no matter how clear the explanations in my edit summary, let me point out that at this diff the sentence "Rothbard warned that the mid-East conflict would draw the U.S. into a world war. " was moved from the original source The Conservative Press in Twentieth-Century America (the page in question having an internet link) to Rothbard's "War Guilt in the Middle East" which doesn't talk about "world war" at all. Searching world and war separately I didn't find any reference to some international conflagration. (Should I search international conflagration as well?) Please explain where this concept was explicitly mentioned or very strongly implied, the only excuse for moving it. Thanks. User:Carolmooredc 12:32, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
My view is that Rothbard is not notable as an economist. Others have disagreed, and the page reflects their position, which is fine. But if "economist" is going to be in the lede and used as the first word to describe Rothbard, we need sources describing his contributions to economics. These should be published in mainstream journals, not the Mises Institute journals (which, fringe concerns aside, were personally established by Murray, so COI issues abound). Note however that it would be fine to publish a Rothbard co-worker's article if the article were published in a mainstream, reliable journal.
As the article currently stands, there is virtually nothing relating to Rothbard's contributions to economics (which are distinct from moral opinions on how the economy should be run; value judgments such as "contempt" for John Maynard Keynes are not scientific). I have tried looking and can't find anything other than the Caplan article. However, I expect those who believe he is a notable economist know more about his contributions to economics than I do. Please add these contributions. It looks silly for the page to have 2 sentences about Murray's work as an economist after describing him chiefly an economist in the lede. Steeletrap ( talk) 17:59, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
Repeating myself:
Oh-No! Please, I was not casting aspersions on any particular editors, least of all you. I tried to characterize my remarks in general terms because these disputes about editing extend beyond the MR article. A variety of editors have engaged in these efforts to improve this article – and others. And the POLE essay reflects the fact that our goal is an improved article. I did not go through all of Binkster's references, but I did point out how Raico has been published in non-LvMI sources. And so I posed the rhetorical question and asked if we were characterizing him (and others) as non-RS simply because the material was published by LvMI. Indeed, even if people in Binkster's list publish solely in LvMI, we still can use the LvMI material provided we do a careful analysis in the context of how the material is used. Regarding motivations, it is no secret that many, many, many WP editors have motivations that may conflict or hinder or hamper or distort or influence (etc) their editing. We see it everywhere. I, too, have my motivations. For example, I'm no fan of "new age" stuff. But I did some edits to the Wilber article, quite minor, which I hope improved it. My edit in the Integral Institute article was to remove a redlinked name. What if I had did an edit summary that said "remove non-notable redlinked name from lunatic fringe group of cult wackos."? (Again, this is a rhetorical question!) Would my motivation be suspect? Yes. Would my edit removing the redlink stand in terms of WP policy and guidance? I hope so. Please, Goethean, you have been most evenhanded. I applaud you for this. And I am sorry because I think you misunderstand what I am trying to say. – S. Rich ( talk) 19:20, 24 August 2013 (UTC)19:21, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
I am stunned and amazed at the reaction to my original post. What exactly is so inflammatory with asking editors to add RS from independent, mainstream, peer-reviewed journals? As for bias against Mises scholars, I explicitly said that "it would be fine to publish a Rothbard co-worker's article if the article were published in a mainstream, reliable journal." If the claims of Rothbard's friends and co-workers (which is who the vast majority of Bink's sources are) that he made major contribution to economics are credible, then these claims would appear in independent, mainstream economic journals. Steeletrap ( talk) 21:30, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
It seems to me of historical interest since it shows a major funder (Blumert who has an article) with Rockwell and Gordon who obviously are relevant to ongoing Mises.org. Of course some might see this as a "guilt by association" picture of Rothbard with his "nefarious allies" and if it was captioned to that effect I'd certainly have a problem. I am mystified as to why Specifico wants it out or where previous discussion is. User:Carolmooredc 15:05, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
some side remarks |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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Readers who wish to see a bigger version of the photo can click it, so sizing is not a major issue. (We do not want images that overwhelm the text.) The need or desirability for rhytidectomy may be apparent in the photo, but so what? (People get older and skin sags sooner or later.) The image is helpful in so far that it shows MR "hanging out" with other interesting people. Perhaps Photoshop retouches can make the image nicer. In any event, keep it. – S. Rich ( talk) 21:20, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
The image seems fine to me. It's pretty sharp for a relatively small photo. I think some of you folks are using other issues like this one as proxies to fight over an underlying ideological conflict. Gamaliel ( talk) 21:29, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
I think there should be a section added to cover the distinct subject of Rothbard's loss of financial support from the Kochs/Cato and his jockeying for new backers and a new affiliation which led to the formation of the Mises Institute. There is a good deal of information available, much of it online, some of it in books such as Allan Lichtman's White Protestant Nation and others which exist only in print. SPECIFICO talk 02:22, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
I have twice deleted a few sentences based on observations made by Associate Professor Matt Zwolinski of the University of Sand Diego's Philosophy Department. Zwolinski is not notable in Wikipedia's terms (he has no biography written), and he is not a prominent author on the subject of Rothbard. Thus he does not deserve to be named explicitly as if he were important to the topic. Zwolinski's two cites are as follows:
The Bleeding Heart Libertarians website says it is a blog. I see no reason why a blog which does not satisfy WP:NEWSBLOG should be used as a reference here. Binksternet ( talk) 17:00, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
Specifico, you say that with With a lack of mainstream independent discussion of Rothbards views and theories, various editors have suggested using weaker sources. In my view, if good sources do not exist then we should report less. That Zwolinski is an expert means that we can accept the facts he presents as reliable but it does not help us in determining what weight if any to assign his views. TFD ( talk) 05:53, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
Our article has discussion about The Ethics of Liberty scattered about in different sections. While a See main hatnote refers to the main article, that piece is a 4,202 byte stub. This article is 75,668 bytes. In accordance with WP:SIZERULE, the Ethics stuff can be (and should be) placed in the book article. – S. Rich ( talk) 22:23, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
== The show goes on. ==
Binksternet is embarrassed by
this description of his tag-team edit-warring, so he keeps violating the rules by deleting it. Too bad nothing ever really gets deleted on Wikipedia. But what's really too bad is that the show goes on. Bink tagged Rich and now the latter is edit-warring to keep those photos out. It's hilarious to watch the lengths these two will go to violate Wikipedia policy. Let's see if Bink tries to delete this, too. It would be fun to watch him incriminate himself by doing so.
MilesMoney (
talk) 04:23, 29 September 2013 (UTC) --
Technopat (
talk) 10:03, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
How does this: In the course of defending Ron Paul from Andrew Sullivan's criticism of Paul's "evolution denial," Rothbard's longtime friend and confidante Lew Rockwell noted that, like Paul, Rothbard "had doubts about the official church of Darwinism". become "skepticism of evolution"? 1. Worst of all, the "doubts" about the "official church of Darwinism" becomes skepticism about evolution. How? Seems that Rockwell was actually talking more about how certain people (groups or whatever) accepted Darwinism as a "faith" rather than skepticism of evolution itself. 2. Where do we get Andrew Sullivan? The letter to the editor of The Atlantic is simply an unidentified reader. 3. The Rockwell comment is more of a blog entry involving Ron Paul. 4. Why do we see that Rockwell was the long time friend and confidant at that particular point? Besides the OR aspects of this entry, we have a problem with RS. That is, the material (Rockwell's quote) does not directly support the idea that Rothbard was a skeptic of evolution as required by WP:RS#Context matters. And even if Rothbard was a skeptic of evolution, 5. how can this be encyclopedic? Did he tout his skepticism in some fashion where it was significant? He was a political theorist & economist. Such a personal belief, mentioned in an incidental fashion, is not worth keeping. – S. Rich ( talk) 02:59, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
Why does it matter what some random economist thinks of evolution? If the only source for this view is the blog of a friend, this, aside from the RS issues, demonstrates that this matter is not important enough to mention in an encyclopedia. Gamaliel ( talk) 03:40, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
Rothbard said that contempt for King, whom he demeaned as a "fraudulent intellectual with a rococo Black Baptist minister style", (see the wiki page for the full quote) should be a "litmus test" for paleo-libertarians. Wrote Rothbard, "Indeed, amidst all the talk in recent years about "litmus tests," it seems to me that there is one excellent litmus test which can set up a clear dividing line between genuine conservatives and neoconservatives, and between paleolibertarians and what we can now call "left-libertarians." And that test is where one stands on "Doctor" King." ( 1) Steeletrap ( talk) 05:34, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
I'm not so sure we have a clear edit on what Rothbard said about King. The article text reads:
Rothbard again wrote fondly of Malcolm X in 1993, stating that, in contrast to the "fraudulent intellectual with a rococo Black Baptist minister style, “Dr.” King", Malcolm X "acted white" through use of his intellect and wit. But while he compared Malcolm X's black nationalism favorably to King's integrationism, he ultimately rejected the vision of a "separate black nation", stating "does anyone really believe that ... New Africa would be content to strike out on its own, with no massive “foreign aid” from the U.S.A.?"[71]
Part of the problem is loose use of quote marks (double and single). Looking at the source cited (footnote 71) I see the mention of "'foreign aid' from the U.S.A.?" comes before the other material, among other problematic edits.
The actual paragraph about foreign aid says:
A second, and more plausible, form of black nationalism is for a separate black nation in currently existing black areas: a New Africa comprised of Harlem, Bedford-Stuyvesant, Detroit, Watts, et al. with its capital the old Washington, D.C., and President Jesse Jackson sitting in the Black House. But then more problems arise. Apart from all the problems of enclaves and access, does anyone really believe that this New Africa would be content to strike out on its own, with no massive “foreign aid” from the U.S.A., and strictly limited migration between the two nations? In a pig’s eye.
The paragraph with remarks about King's intelligence and wit reads:
In the last analysis, then, it is not Malcolm’s ideas, militant or not, nationalist or not, that continue to fascinate, and to attract followers. Not at all. On the contrary, it was Malcolm as a person who was the great attraction when alive and still is, thirty years after his death. For Malcolm was indeed unique among black leadership, past and present. He did no shuckin’ and jivin’, he was not a clown like “the Rev.” Al Sharpton, he was not moronic like Ben Hooks or Thurgood Marshall, he did not simply threaten Whitey in a loutish manner like the Black Panthers, he was not a fraudulent intellectual with a rococo Black Baptist minister style, like “Dr.” King. He stood out like a noble eagle among his confreres. He carried himself with great pride and dignity; his speaking style was incisive and sparkled with intelligence and sardonic wit. In short, his attraction for blacks was and is that he acted white. It is a ridiculous liberal clich that blacks are just like whites but with a different skin color; but in Malcolm’s case, regardless of his formal ideology, it really seemed to be true.
The paragraph about Malcolm X's intelligence and wit reads:
I had the privilege of seeing Malcolm speak on two occasions in the year before his death. It was a delightful experience. His answers to questions were a match for any political leader, for intelligence and wit....
For the moment I'll let editors draw their own conclusions. – S. Rich ( talk) 20:13, 2 October 2013 (UTC) Two more comments: First, I see that King is no longer in the infobox. Second, to be clear, there are other portions of the paragraph that are more direct as to what Rothbard thought about King. This was selected because of the disjointed quoting that exists. The Raimondo An Enemy of the State citation is tagged page needed. If we can get cleaner & more specific quotes for verification, the problems may be resolved. 20:34, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
This single SECONDARY sentence has 3 PRIMARY citations surrounding it. And from this one paragraph we have the section heading that says (in effect) "These are Rothbard's views on race." But are these primary sourced "referenced to a secondary source"? No, they are not. Does Raimondo tell us anything more than what MR thought about race? No, he does not. There is certainly reading involved, and that reading involves interpretation, and when we do our interpretation we must do so in accordance with WP policy. – S. Rich ( talk) 17:55, 3 October 2013 (UTC)Rothbard considered black separatist Malcolm X to be a "great black leader” and integrationist Martin Luther King to be favored by whites because he “was the major restraining force on the developing Negro revolution."[3][page needed]
@Srich Despite the fact that this policy has been explained to you on at least a dozen recent occasions, you continue to mis-cite and mis-state it selectively on various article and project talk pages. We are not allowed to interpret primary sources such as Rothbard's singed US Draft Card, found in the garbage and photographed by a tabloid reporter. We are not allowed to use that primary document to support a claim in WP's voice that Rothbard was a draft protester. But this is not such a "primary source". This is a statement by Rothbard which gives his own opinion. That is a primary source WP:ABOUTSELF and you have cited a policy which does not refer to such sources. SPECIFICO talk 18:05, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
These were not just political figures Rothbard supported. According to the Reason RS ( 2), he cited these men as not only influences, but models for paleo-libertarianism As Rothbard's work as political theorist and his contribution of paleo-libertarianism are important parts of his legacy, so too are Duke and McCarthy important influences. Steeletrap ( talk) 05:34, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
Here is a link to Rothbard's January 1992 article. He does not say that Duke and McCarthy were influences but says they were right-wing populists. (He is btw referring to Duke's campaign in Louisiana, not his earlier leadership of the Klan.) And the lesson he learns from them is that the establishment opposes right-wing populism. Also, we should not be using opinion pieces as sources for facts, per "reliable sources". TFD ( talk) 20:27, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
I've just protected this for one week due to the ongoing edit warring. (At this rate, all libertarian articles will end up permanently full protected.) Mark Arsten ( talk) 17:22, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
comments unrelated to page protection |
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Why is it considered acceptable for Steeletrap and SPECIFICO to edit war by removing NPOV edits, despite the issues of emphasis stated at the top of the page? It is obvious there is no consensus for their biased edits, which have been continually challenged and even resulted in a challenge to the Good Article status of the article? This has also occurred on the Hoppe article. It is obvious from a review of Steeletrap's page that there is a specific bias against Hoppe and Rothbard which obviously influences all of their edits. The denial that those who disagree with them are really "economists" is an especially heinous example of their bias compromising the integrity of the article, and fortunately has since been reversed. But the obsessive emphasis on the late Paleo period is obviously for the purpose of character assassination, and anyone who attempts to remove the attacks on Rothbard which they have inserted throughout the article are all immediately reverted, causing an unnecessary edit war. I propose that the issues they have created throughout the article be removed, and then the article be protected or semi-protected. 71.209.221.48 ( talk) 15:10, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
I also agree with this assessment. Steeletrap and SPECIFICO are pretty clearly coming from an anti-Rothbard viewpoint. This article is clearly a distortion of a man's life and work. As to some specific points. Whether or not he was an important figure or made clear important contributions to so called "mainstream" economics is of no consequence to that fact that that he is quite clearly a huge influence and maybe one of the most notable economists in the Austrian tradition. All of the sources from LVMI are valid to this point because they (the institute) are currently the authority in the Austrian school of economics. Duke and McCarthy are barely footnotes in a tradition of old right populism that Rothbard has referenced many times and quite clearly is influenced by. So to say that Rothbard is influenced by Duke and McCarthy because in one article of thousands he agrees with the tactics they employed to get across their message to the "red necks" is a gross distortion. If we were to take such a small agreement with a person to mean that they should be listed among their influences everyone's list would be a mile long. There are probably hundreds of people that were significantly more influential than these two. So this combined with the emphasis on Rothbard's relatively small body of work about anything race related is used to paint a man who was anything but a racist as a minority hating white supremacist. He said some controversial thing about the civil rights movement and Dr. King but that was not his most important contribution or characteristic of the vast majority of his work. Where is the information on power elite analysis, monetary policy, monetary theory, the gold standard, how an anarcho-capitalist society would function, and many other topics he wrote about extensively? Why are the founders of the austrian school such as Carl Menger not on his influence list? What about H.L. Mencken a man he frequently cites as the person who most influenced his writing style and also influenced him on many other ideas. I don't mind having a section on his controversial ideas about race and prominent civil rights leaders, the rights of children, his ideas on abortion, or the treatment of criminal suspects. But these two editors are taking it beyond that level to remove valid information about Rothbard and overemphasize the importance of these idea in the context of his much larger body of work. This is a terrible distortion of Rothbard. The page should be reverted to an earlier version before the edits of SPECIFICO and Steeletrap. If they can add information they think is relevant about Rothbard such as his controversial views and quotes or information from his critics without removing relevant and sourced material they don't happen to agree with then fine. If not I think they should be banned from editing the topic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.189.82.54 ( talk) 01:19, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
1. Please discuss content, not editors. 2. You state, " All of the sources from LVMI are valid to this point because they (the institute) are currently the authority in the Austrian school of economics." I know that there are people who hold this opinion, including some of the editors here, however you should know that there are others -- in fact a plurality, I believe -- who do not believe that vMI is a significant voice or authority in Austrian Economics. Most economists, in my opinion, would state that the economists at George Mason University, Cato Institute, New York University, and elsewhere represent the vital core of current Austrian thought and that the vMI group is marginal at best. 3. Be that as it may, all we can do as editors here is to collate and paraphrase what WP:RS sources say. Rather than attack other editors and their contributions here, please familiarize yourself with WP policy and offer your own contributions consistent with community norms here. SPECIFICO talk 02:04, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 10 |
Since I get reverted no matter how clear the explanations in my edit summary, let me point out that at this diff the sentence "Rothbard warned that the mid-East conflict would draw the U.S. into a world war. " was moved from the original source The Conservative Press in Twentieth-Century America (the page in question having an internet link) to Rothbard's "War Guilt in the Middle East" which doesn't talk about "world war" at all. Searching world and war separately I didn't find any reference to some international conflagration. (Should I search international conflagration as well?) Please explain where this concept was explicitly mentioned or very strongly implied, the only excuse for moving it. Thanks. User:Carolmooredc 12:32, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
My view is that Rothbard is not notable as an economist. Others have disagreed, and the page reflects their position, which is fine. But if "economist" is going to be in the lede and used as the first word to describe Rothbard, we need sources describing his contributions to economics. These should be published in mainstream journals, not the Mises Institute journals (which, fringe concerns aside, were personally established by Murray, so COI issues abound). Note however that it would be fine to publish a Rothbard co-worker's article if the article were published in a mainstream, reliable journal.
As the article currently stands, there is virtually nothing relating to Rothbard's contributions to economics (which are distinct from moral opinions on how the economy should be run; value judgments such as "contempt" for John Maynard Keynes are not scientific). I have tried looking and can't find anything other than the Caplan article. However, I expect those who believe he is a notable economist know more about his contributions to economics than I do. Please add these contributions. It looks silly for the page to have 2 sentences about Murray's work as an economist after describing him chiefly an economist in the lede. Steeletrap ( talk) 17:59, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
Repeating myself:
Oh-No! Please, I was not casting aspersions on any particular editors, least of all you. I tried to characterize my remarks in general terms because these disputes about editing extend beyond the MR article. A variety of editors have engaged in these efforts to improve this article – and others. And the POLE essay reflects the fact that our goal is an improved article. I did not go through all of Binkster's references, but I did point out how Raico has been published in non-LvMI sources. And so I posed the rhetorical question and asked if we were characterizing him (and others) as non-RS simply because the material was published by LvMI. Indeed, even if people in Binkster's list publish solely in LvMI, we still can use the LvMI material provided we do a careful analysis in the context of how the material is used. Regarding motivations, it is no secret that many, many, many WP editors have motivations that may conflict or hinder or hamper or distort or influence (etc) their editing. We see it everywhere. I, too, have my motivations. For example, I'm no fan of "new age" stuff. But I did some edits to the Wilber article, quite minor, which I hope improved it. My edit in the Integral Institute article was to remove a redlinked name. What if I had did an edit summary that said "remove non-notable redlinked name from lunatic fringe group of cult wackos."? (Again, this is a rhetorical question!) Would my motivation be suspect? Yes. Would my edit removing the redlink stand in terms of WP policy and guidance? I hope so. Please, Goethean, you have been most evenhanded. I applaud you for this. And I am sorry because I think you misunderstand what I am trying to say. – S. Rich ( talk) 19:20, 24 August 2013 (UTC)19:21, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
I am stunned and amazed at the reaction to my original post. What exactly is so inflammatory with asking editors to add RS from independent, mainstream, peer-reviewed journals? As for bias against Mises scholars, I explicitly said that "it would be fine to publish a Rothbard co-worker's article if the article were published in a mainstream, reliable journal." If the claims of Rothbard's friends and co-workers (which is who the vast majority of Bink's sources are) that he made major contribution to economics are credible, then these claims would appear in independent, mainstream economic journals. Steeletrap ( talk) 21:30, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
It seems to me of historical interest since it shows a major funder (Blumert who has an article) with Rockwell and Gordon who obviously are relevant to ongoing Mises.org. Of course some might see this as a "guilt by association" picture of Rothbard with his "nefarious allies" and if it was captioned to that effect I'd certainly have a problem. I am mystified as to why Specifico wants it out or where previous discussion is. User:Carolmooredc 15:05, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
some side remarks |
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Readers who wish to see a bigger version of the photo can click it, so sizing is not a major issue. (We do not want images that overwhelm the text.) The need or desirability for rhytidectomy may be apparent in the photo, but so what? (People get older and skin sags sooner or later.) The image is helpful in so far that it shows MR "hanging out" with other interesting people. Perhaps Photoshop retouches can make the image nicer. In any event, keep it. – S. Rich ( talk) 21:20, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
The image seems fine to me. It's pretty sharp for a relatively small photo. I think some of you folks are using other issues like this one as proxies to fight over an underlying ideological conflict. Gamaliel ( talk) 21:29, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
I think there should be a section added to cover the distinct subject of Rothbard's loss of financial support from the Kochs/Cato and his jockeying for new backers and a new affiliation which led to the formation of the Mises Institute. There is a good deal of information available, much of it online, some of it in books such as Allan Lichtman's White Protestant Nation and others which exist only in print. SPECIFICO talk 02:22, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
I have twice deleted a few sentences based on observations made by Associate Professor Matt Zwolinski of the University of Sand Diego's Philosophy Department. Zwolinski is not notable in Wikipedia's terms (he has no biography written), and he is not a prominent author on the subject of Rothbard. Thus he does not deserve to be named explicitly as if he were important to the topic. Zwolinski's two cites are as follows:
The Bleeding Heart Libertarians website says it is a blog. I see no reason why a blog which does not satisfy WP:NEWSBLOG should be used as a reference here. Binksternet ( talk) 17:00, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
Specifico, you say that with With a lack of mainstream independent discussion of Rothbards views and theories, various editors have suggested using weaker sources. In my view, if good sources do not exist then we should report less. That Zwolinski is an expert means that we can accept the facts he presents as reliable but it does not help us in determining what weight if any to assign his views. TFD ( talk) 05:53, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
Our article has discussion about The Ethics of Liberty scattered about in different sections. While a See main hatnote refers to the main article, that piece is a 4,202 byte stub. This article is 75,668 bytes. In accordance with WP:SIZERULE, the Ethics stuff can be (and should be) placed in the book article. – S. Rich ( talk) 22:23, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
== The show goes on. ==
Binksternet is embarrassed by
this description of his tag-team edit-warring, so he keeps violating the rules by deleting it. Too bad nothing ever really gets deleted on Wikipedia. But what's really too bad is that the show goes on. Bink tagged Rich and now the latter is edit-warring to keep those photos out. It's hilarious to watch the lengths these two will go to violate Wikipedia policy. Let's see if Bink tries to delete this, too. It would be fun to watch him incriminate himself by doing so.
MilesMoney (
talk) 04:23, 29 September 2013 (UTC) --
Technopat (
talk) 10:03, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
How does this: In the course of defending Ron Paul from Andrew Sullivan's criticism of Paul's "evolution denial," Rothbard's longtime friend and confidante Lew Rockwell noted that, like Paul, Rothbard "had doubts about the official church of Darwinism". become "skepticism of evolution"? 1. Worst of all, the "doubts" about the "official church of Darwinism" becomes skepticism about evolution. How? Seems that Rockwell was actually talking more about how certain people (groups or whatever) accepted Darwinism as a "faith" rather than skepticism of evolution itself. 2. Where do we get Andrew Sullivan? The letter to the editor of The Atlantic is simply an unidentified reader. 3. The Rockwell comment is more of a blog entry involving Ron Paul. 4. Why do we see that Rockwell was the long time friend and confidant at that particular point? Besides the OR aspects of this entry, we have a problem with RS. That is, the material (Rockwell's quote) does not directly support the idea that Rothbard was a skeptic of evolution as required by WP:RS#Context matters. And even if Rothbard was a skeptic of evolution, 5. how can this be encyclopedic? Did he tout his skepticism in some fashion where it was significant? He was a political theorist & economist. Such a personal belief, mentioned in an incidental fashion, is not worth keeping. – S. Rich ( talk) 02:59, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
Why does it matter what some random economist thinks of evolution? If the only source for this view is the blog of a friend, this, aside from the RS issues, demonstrates that this matter is not important enough to mention in an encyclopedia. Gamaliel ( talk) 03:40, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
Rothbard said that contempt for King, whom he demeaned as a "fraudulent intellectual with a rococo Black Baptist minister style", (see the wiki page for the full quote) should be a "litmus test" for paleo-libertarians. Wrote Rothbard, "Indeed, amidst all the talk in recent years about "litmus tests," it seems to me that there is one excellent litmus test which can set up a clear dividing line between genuine conservatives and neoconservatives, and between paleolibertarians and what we can now call "left-libertarians." And that test is where one stands on "Doctor" King." ( 1) Steeletrap ( talk) 05:34, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
I'm not so sure we have a clear edit on what Rothbard said about King. The article text reads:
Rothbard again wrote fondly of Malcolm X in 1993, stating that, in contrast to the "fraudulent intellectual with a rococo Black Baptist minister style, “Dr.” King", Malcolm X "acted white" through use of his intellect and wit. But while he compared Malcolm X's black nationalism favorably to King's integrationism, he ultimately rejected the vision of a "separate black nation", stating "does anyone really believe that ... New Africa would be content to strike out on its own, with no massive “foreign aid” from the U.S.A.?"[71]
Part of the problem is loose use of quote marks (double and single). Looking at the source cited (footnote 71) I see the mention of "'foreign aid' from the U.S.A.?" comes before the other material, among other problematic edits.
The actual paragraph about foreign aid says:
A second, and more plausible, form of black nationalism is for a separate black nation in currently existing black areas: a New Africa comprised of Harlem, Bedford-Stuyvesant, Detroit, Watts, et al. with its capital the old Washington, D.C., and President Jesse Jackson sitting in the Black House. But then more problems arise. Apart from all the problems of enclaves and access, does anyone really believe that this New Africa would be content to strike out on its own, with no massive “foreign aid” from the U.S.A., and strictly limited migration between the two nations? In a pig’s eye.
The paragraph with remarks about King's intelligence and wit reads:
In the last analysis, then, it is not Malcolm’s ideas, militant or not, nationalist or not, that continue to fascinate, and to attract followers. Not at all. On the contrary, it was Malcolm as a person who was the great attraction when alive and still is, thirty years after his death. For Malcolm was indeed unique among black leadership, past and present. He did no shuckin’ and jivin’, he was not a clown like “the Rev.” Al Sharpton, he was not moronic like Ben Hooks or Thurgood Marshall, he did not simply threaten Whitey in a loutish manner like the Black Panthers, he was not a fraudulent intellectual with a rococo Black Baptist minister style, like “Dr.” King. He stood out like a noble eagle among his confreres. He carried himself with great pride and dignity; his speaking style was incisive and sparkled with intelligence and sardonic wit. In short, his attraction for blacks was and is that he acted white. It is a ridiculous liberal clich that blacks are just like whites but with a different skin color; but in Malcolm’s case, regardless of his formal ideology, it really seemed to be true.
The paragraph about Malcolm X's intelligence and wit reads:
I had the privilege of seeing Malcolm speak on two occasions in the year before his death. It was a delightful experience. His answers to questions were a match for any political leader, for intelligence and wit....
For the moment I'll let editors draw their own conclusions. – S. Rich ( talk) 20:13, 2 October 2013 (UTC) Two more comments: First, I see that King is no longer in the infobox. Second, to be clear, there are other portions of the paragraph that are more direct as to what Rothbard thought about King. This was selected because of the disjointed quoting that exists. The Raimondo An Enemy of the State citation is tagged page needed. If we can get cleaner & more specific quotes for verification, the problems may be resolved. 20:34, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
This single SECONDARY sentence has 3 PRIMARY citations surrounding it. And from this one paragraph we have the section heading that says (in effect) "These are Rothbard's views on race." But are these primary sourced "referenced to a secondary source"? No, they are not. Does Raimondo tell us anything more than what MR thought about race? No, he does not. There is certainly reading involved, and that reading involves interpretation, and when we do our interpretation we must do so in accordance with WP policy. – S. Rich ( talk) 17:55, 3 October 2013 (UTC)Rothbard considered black separatist Malcolm X to be a "great black leader” and integrationist Martin Luther King to be favored by whites because he “was the major restraining force on the developing Negro revolution."[3][page needed]
@Srich Despite the fact that this policy has been explained to you on at least a dozen recent occasions, you continue to mis-cite and mis-state it selectively on various article and project talk pages. We are not allowed to interpret primary sources such as Rothbard's singed US Draft Card, found in the garbage and photographed by a tabloid reporter. We are not allowed to use that primary document to support a claim in WP's voice that Rothbard was a draft protester. But this is not such a "primary source". This is a statement by Rothbard which gives his own opinion. That is a primary source WP:ABOUTSELF and you have cited a policy which does not refer to such sources. SPECIFICO talk 18:05, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
These were not just political figures Rothbard supported. According to the Reason RS ( 2), he cited these men as not only influences, but models for paleo-libertarianism As Rothbard's work as political theorist and his contribution of paleo-libertarianism are important parts of his legacy, so too are Duke and McCarthy important influences. Steeletrap ( talk) 05:34, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
Here is a link to Rothbard's January 1992 article. He does not say that Duke and McCarthy were influences but says they were right-wing populists. (He is btw referring to Duke's campaign in Louisiana, not his earlier leadership of the Klan.) And the lesson he learns from them is that the establishment opposes right-wing populism. Also, we should not be using opinion pieces as sources for facts, per "reliable sources". TFD ( talk) 20:27, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
I've just protected this for one week due to the ongoing edit warring. (At this rate, all libertarian articles will end up permanently full protected.) Mark Arsten ( talk) 17:22, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
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Why is it considered acceptable for Steeletrap and SPECIFICO to edit war by removing NPOV edits, despite the issues of emphasis stated at the top of the page? It is obvious there is no consensus for their biased edits, which have been continually challenged and even resulted in a challenge to the Good Article status of the article? This has also occurred on the Hoppe article. It is obvious from a review of Steeletrap's page that there is a specific bias against Hoppe and Rothbard which obviously influences all of their edits. The denial that those who disagree with them are really "economists" is an especially heinous example of their bias compromising the integrity of the article, and fortunately has since been reversed. But the obsessive emphasis on the late Paleo period is obviously for the purpose of character assassination, and anyone who attempts to remove the attacks on Rothbard which they have inserted throughout the article are all immediately reverted, causing an unnecessary edit war. I propose that the issues they have created throughout the article be removed, and then the article be protected or semi-protected. 71.209.221.48 ( talk) 15:10, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
I also agree with this assessment. Steeletrap and SPECIFICO are pretty clearly coming from an anti-Rothbard viewpoint. This article is clearly a distortion of a man's life and work. As to some specific points. Whether or not he was an important figure or made clear important contributions to so called "mainstream" economics is of no consequence to that fact that that he is quite clearly a huge influence and maybe one of the most notable economists in the Austrian tradition. All of the sources from LVMI are valid to this point because they (the institute) are currently the authority in the Austrian school of economics. Duke and McCarthy are barely footnotes in a tradition of old right populism that Rothbard has referenced many times and quite clearly is influenced by. So to say that Rothbard is influenced by Duke and McCarthy because in one article of thousands he agrees with the tactics they employed to get across their message to the "red necks" is a gross distortion. If we were to take such a small agreement with a person to mean that they should be listed among their influences everyone's list would be a mile long. There are probably hundreds of people that were significantly more influential than these two. So this combined with the emphasis on Rothbard's relatively small body of work about anything race related is used to paint a man who was anything but a racist as a minority hating white supremacist. He said some controversial thing about the civil rights movement and Dr. King but that was not his most important contribution or characteristic of the vast majority of his work. Where is the information on power elite analysis, monetary policy, monetary theory, the gold standard, how an anarcho-capitalist society would function, and many other topics he wrote about extensively? Why are the founders of the austrian school such as Carl Menger not on his influence list? What about H.L. Mencken a man he frequently cites as the person who most influenced his writing style and also influenced him on many other ideas. I don't mind having a section on his controversial ideas about race and prominent civil rights leaders, the rights of children, his ideas on abortion, or the treatment of criminal suspects. But these two editors are taking it beyond that level to remove valid information about Rothbard and overemphasize the importance of these idea in the context of his much larger body of work. This is a terrible distortion of Rothbard. The page should be reverted to an earlier version before the edits of SPECIFICO and Steeletrap. If they can add information they think is relevant about Rothbard such as his controversial views and quotes or information from his critics without removing relevant and sourced material they don't happen to agree with then fine. If not I think they should be banned from editing the topic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.189.82.54 ( talk) 01:19, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
1. Please discuss content, not editors. 2. You state, " All of the sources from LVMI are valid to this point because they (the institute) are currently the authority in the Austrian school of economics." I know that there are people who hold this opinion, including some of the editors here, however you should know that there are others -- in fact a plurality, I believe -- who do not believe that vMI is a significant voice or authority in Austrian Economics. Most economists, in my opinion, would state that the economists at George Mason University, Cato Institute, New York University, and elsewhere represent the vital core of current Austrian thought and that the vMI group is marginal at best. 3. Be that as it may, all we can do as editors here is to collate and paraphrase what WP:RS sources say. Rather than attack other editors and their contributions here, please familiarize yourself with WP policy and offer your own contributions consistent with community norms here. SPECIFICO talk 02:04, 9 October 2013 (UTC)