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I've completed the first phase of converting to the Harvard style to address an editor's concern about HTML mark-up. The next phase will be cleaning up all the refs to format to the Harvard style - books should indicate page number, newspaper articles are cited differently, etc. With the first phase complete, however, all the apparently hindering mark-up has been effectively moved out of the main text so hopefully that will address those concerns. -- Banjeboi 19:56, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
I was just checking some sources and found that this article has a number of editorials or opinion pieces that are used as references. For example, the first source listed, "'A special kind of killing'". Op-eds should only be used as a source for the opinions of the newspaper or the writer, not as a source for facts. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:04, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
At the top of the Accusations of Homophobia section was added the following sentence: "Criticism of the media-bias accusation and the use of the case to argue against homosexuality focused on the belief that homosexuality was being treated as identical to pedophilia."
This sentence implies that the main criticism was the homosexuality = pedophilia slant. However, the section seems to describe the homophobia more broadly than just that slant, with the slant being mostly an aside. Unless a citation can be found clarifying the main accusation of homophobia being about that slant, the sentence should be removed. - kotra ( talk) 17:28, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
I intended that line as a sort of 'thesis' for that section, because it seemed like a reasonable characterization of the existing text. Also, by linking to the articles on homosexuality and pedophilia so close together in that sentence, it reminds readers to check out those articles. I thought that if someone didn't want to read the whole section (as is often the case in decent-sized articles, I'd guess), that line could give them a quick 'gist' of the later paragraphs. I don't know if the line can be modified to better characterize the text, or if you think the section is short enough not to need it. Perhaps something like "Criticism of the media-bias accusation focused on perceived homophobia in these responses, and often on the belief that homosexuality was being treated as identical to pedophilia."? Whatever's clever. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.11.135.246 ( talk) 11:16, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
The Benton Country court affidavit linked from this article notes that a search revealed the presence of texts describing the sexual abuse of a young girl. This information has been twice removed from the article, though it highlights the fact that the murderers were pedophiles (and possibly indiscriminate as to gender). The first removal said it was unsourced (it was sourced using the McMath article, which was already linked). The second removal said that the affidavit constituted original research (though it was already linked and the author did not remove the link), and that it was a primary source. A primary source would be one of the killers themselves, or someone personally affiliated with them or the victim.
The writings about a girl being abused were found by law enforcement, and they are the source. It is not even stated that the killers actually wrote the material - only that they had it. Barring any reasonable response here, I'll feel free to restore this information in a few days. So let's clear this up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.11.135.246 ( talk) 01:17, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
On June 30, 2009, Benji made content changes against consensus and then quickly archived the original discussion concerning the content issue (over the word "homosexual" vs. "gay") on the same day. Prior to his changes, consensus seemed to be that the word "homosexual" (like the word "heterosexual") was the correct and proper english word best fit to be used in an encyclopedia. I made it clear in the last discussion that slang words (like "gay" and "straight") are not appropriate for a encyclopedia. I changed the wording back to what it was before. Unlike Benji, I am asking others to voice their opinion here concerning this issue and hopefully we can reach another consensus that will stick this time. Please do not revert my edit until then. Discuss first please. Thanks. Caden cool 17:11, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
If I'm not mistaken, we've been through the homosexual vs gay thing with you before, Caden. Or maybe I am mistaken and it was a different editor. Regardless, consensus has long been on Wikipedia that we use "gay" in instances such as these. Exploding Boy ( talk) 22:33, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
I believe the category for hate crimes is acceptable and appropriate for the Jesse Dirkhising article. Rape is an act of hate and not an act of love. Rape isn't just a sex crime (power over a victim) but also a crime of hate (committed against an innocent), regardless of who the victim is or was. There was debate over this in the media from conservative commentators. Therefore I feel the category fits. Please discuss here if you feel otherwise. Thanks. Caden cool 17:14, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
Rape is not, in and of itself, a hate crime. Rape might be committed in the context of a hate crime, but we have no sources indicating that to have been the case in this instance. Exploding Boy ( talk) 22:46, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
We need to find consensus about what the purpose of the article is about before we start an edit war about which categories apply. For example, if this article is about the murder but not victim, then "murdered American children" is not a true category. If this article is a biogrpahy of a murder victim, then that category is appropriate but the article needs to be re-named. Please discuss before making such changes. Bearian ( talk) 19:11, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
Outdent. perhaps we should look to renaming Category:Murdered children to or simply clarify on the cat page that articles that also focus on the murder of children can be included. It really seems semantical to push articles out of a category because they meet the spirit but not the letter of the category. Thought? -- Banjeboi 15:33, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
I think we should simply re-apply it and
I am changing this sentence: "While both victims had died as the result of assaults by two men, Dirkhising was a minor and the victim of a sex crime; while Shepard, an adult, was murdered out of hate."
to . . .
"While both victims had died as the result of assaults by two men, Dirkhising was a minor and the victim of a sex crime; while Shepard, an adult, was murdered as part of a hate crime."
The reason for the change is that I think it goes without saying that a person is murdered out of hate, but that doesn't necessarily equate to a hate crime under the law. I know it's a bit picky, but it's better, IMHO. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.99.222.84 ( talk) 04:19, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
Why was the image of Jesse Dirkhising deleted? There was no explanation left for this deletion. Caden cool 18:56, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
There is not mentioned i.e. David Duke. He seems to be one initial and is also mentioned in the Washington Times article.
I have read some claims that Jesse Dirkhising was actively seeking relationships with older men, regardless of their illegality; and that his parents said he was gay during trial. I don't know if any of that is true. Any sources? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.54.39.252 ( talk) 19:56, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
I think a lot of page numbers are missing. The page numbers need to be identified. If possible link to the pages on Google Books WhisperToMe ( talk) 05:34, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
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This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Murder of Jesse Dirkhising article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2, 3 |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
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I've completed the first phase of converting to the Harvard style to address an editor's concern about HTML mark-up. The next phase will be cleaning up all the refs to format to the Harvard style - books should indicate page number, newspaper articles are cited differently, etc. With the first phase complete, however, all the apparently hindering mark-up has been effectively moved out of the main text so hopefully that will address those concerns. -- Banjeboi 19:56, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
I was just checking some sources and found that this article has a number of editorials or opinion pieces that are used as references. For example, the first source listed, "'A special kind of killing'". Op-eds should only be used as a source for the opinions of the newspaper or the writer, not as a source for facts. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:04, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
At the top of the Accusations of Homophobia section was added the following sentence: "Criticism of the media-bias accusation and the use of the case to argue against homosexuality focused on the belief that homosexuality was being treated as identical to pedophilia."
This sentence implies that the main criticism was the homosexuality = pedophilia slant. However, the section seems to describe the homophobia more broadly than just that slant, with the slant being mostly an aside. Unless a citation can be found clarifying the main accusation of homophobia being about that slant, the sentence should be removed. - kotra ( talk) 17:28, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
I intended that line as a sort of 'thesis' for that section, because it seemed like a reasonable characterization of the existing text. Also, by linking to the articles on homosexuality and pedophilia so close together in that sentence, it reminds readers to check out those articles. I thought that if someone didn't want to read the whole section (as is often the case in decent-sized articles, I'd guess), that line could give them a quick 'gist' of the later paragraphs. I don't know if the line can be modified to better characterize the text, or if you think the section is short enough not to need it. Perhaps something like "Criticism of the media-bias accusation focused on perceived homophobia in these responses, and often on the belief that homosexuality was being treated as identical to pedophilia."? Whatever's clever. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.11.135.246 ( talk) 11:16, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
The Benton Country court affidavit linked from this article notes that a search revealed the presence of texts describing the sexual abuse of a young girl. This information has been twice removed from the article, though it highlights the fact that the murderers were pedophiles (and possibly indiscriminate as to gender). The first removal said it was unsourced (it was sourced using the McMath article, which was already linked). The second removal said that the affidavit constituted original research (though it was already linked and the author did not remove the link), and that it was a primary source. A primary source would be one of the killers themselves, or someone personally affiliated with them or the victim.
The writings about a girl being abused were found by law enforcement, and they are the source. It is not even stated that the killers actually wrote the material - only that they had it. Barring any reasonable response here, I'll feel free to restore this information in a few days. So let's clear this up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.11.135.246 ( talk) 01:17, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
On June 30, 2009, Benji made content changes against consensus and then quickly archived the original discussion concerning the content issue (over the word "homosexual" vs. "gay") on the same day. Prior to his changes, consensus seemed to be that the word "homosexual" (like the word "heterosexual") was the correct and proper english word best fit to be used in an encyclopedia. I made it clear in the last discussion that slang words (like "gay" and "straight") are not appropriate for a encyclopedia. I changed the wording back to what it was before. Unlike Benji, I am asking others to voice their opinion here concerning this issue and hopefully we can reach another consensus that will stick this time. Please do not revert my edit until then. Discuss first please. Thanks. Caden cool 17:11, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
If I'm not mistaken, we've been through the homosexual vs gay thing with you before, Caden. Or maybe I am mistaken and it was a different editor. Regardless, consensus has long been on Wikipedia that we use "gay" in instances such as these. Exploding Boy ( talk) 22:33, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
I believe the category for hate crimes is acceptable and appropriate for the Jesse Dirkhising article. Rape is an act of hate and not an act of love. Rape isn't just a sex crime (power over a victim) but also a crime of hate (committed against an innocent), regardless of who the victim is or was. There was debate over this in the media from conservative commentators. Therefore I feel the category fits. Please discuss here if you feel otherwise. Thanks. Caden cool 17:14, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
Rape is not, in and of itself, a hate crime. Rape might be committed in the context of a hate crime, but we have no sources indicating that to have been the case in this instance. Exploding Boy ( talk) 22:46, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
We need to find consensus about what the purpose of the article is about before we start an edit war about which categories apply. For example, if this article is about the murder but not victim, then "murdered American children" is not a true category. If this article is a biogrpahy of a murder victim, then that category is appropriate but the article needs to be re-named. Please discuss before making such changes. Bearian ( talk) 19:11, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
Outdent. perhaps we should look to renaming Category:Murdered children to or simply clarify on the cat page that articles that also focus on the murder of children can be included. It really seems semantical to push articles out of a category because they meet the spirit but not the letter of the category. Thought? -- Banjeboi 15:33, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
I think we should simply re-apply it and
I am changing this sentence: "While both victims had died as the result of assaults by two men, Dirkhising was a minor and the victim of a sex crime; while Shepard, an adult, was murdered out of hate."
to . . .
"While both victims had died as the result of assaults by two men, Dirkhising was a minor and the victim of a sex crime; while Shepard, an adult, was murdered as part of a hate crime."
The reason for the change is that I think it goes without saying that a person is murdered out of hate, but that doesn't necessarily equate to a hate crime under the law. I know it's a bit picky, but it's better, IMHO. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.99.222.84 ( talk) 04:19, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
Why was the image of Jesse Dirkhising deleted? There was no explanation left for this deletion. Caden cool 18:56, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
There is not mentioned i.e. David Duke. He seems to be one initial and is also mentioned in the Washington Times article.
I have read some claims that Jesse Dirkhising was actively seeking relationships with older men, regardless of their illegality; and that his parents said he was gay during trial. I don't know if any of that is true. Any sources? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.54.39.252 ( talk) 19:56, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
I think a lot of page numbers are missing. The page numbers need to be identified. If possible link to the pages on Google Books WhisperToMe ( talk) 05:34, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 00:24, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 10:23, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
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