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As is now known from evidence heretofore suppresed, Gorge Floyd had a fatal level of fentanyl in his bloodstream at the time of his death. [1]
Therefore this article needs to change.
First it should be the "Death of George Floyd" and not the "Killing of George Floyd."
Second the fact that Floyd was suffering from a fatal dose of fentanyl at the time of his death needs to be prominently reported.
Third, the full report of the medical examiner should be linked, which documents that there was no evidence of physical strangulation.
There is a good case that this article simply should be taken down because it is hopelessly biased in favor of the assertion that the presumed innocent police officers are guilty, in spite of the key facts that have come to light. The article is clearly an editorial which seeks to try these officers in the court of public opinion. It has no place on Wikipedia.
Please bear in mind that likely innocent men are being tried for murder and the substance of this article is such that the chance of a fair trial is reduced. It would be more appropriate for the article to be taken down. Once the trial is over, if the case is not dismissed before it goes to trial, then at least all of that evidence will presumably have come to light.
JAQUINO ( talk) 23:42, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
References
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The medical examiner "said that if Mr Floyd had been found dead in his home (or anywhere else) and there were no other contributing factors he would conclude that it was an overdose death."
[1]
The medical examiner said "no bruising in neck on any muscles or injuries to structures" and "No bruises on back, or evidence of blunt trauma to back." [2] JAQUINO ( talk) 02:46, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
The KARE story linked to above says:
"If he were found dead at home alone and no other apparent causes, this could be acceptable to call an OD. Deaths have been certified with levels of 3," Baker told investigators.
In another new document, Baker said, "That is a fatal level of fentanyl under normal circumstances."
But then Baker added, "I am not saying this killed him."
Kinda forgot to mention that last part. Le v!v ich 03:55, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
We generally rely on WP:SECONDARY sources, not primary. The concern stated at your previous post was whether there was enough sources to satisfy WP:EXCEPTIONAL.— Bagumba ( talk) 03:57, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
Here are multiple secondary sources:
[3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10]
The article needs to reflect these important developments. JAQUINO ( talk) 11:05, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
References
When are you going to update the cause of death and charges being dropped? Zs004411339922 ( talk) 20:58, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
To simply call it a homicide is misleading (not untrue), especially with all the police brutality and suffocation talk in the lead for context. Drugs and heart problem are precisely as well-sourced as the part on which some editors would rather focus. Not a NPOV, see revision at 19:59 today for better alternative. InedibleHulk ( talk) 20:07, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
NYTimes [1]:
Shortly after the family’s autopsy findings were announced, the Hennepin County medical examiner released its own findings, also concluding that the manner of death was homicide. The county attributed the cause of death to “cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression.”
In other words, Mr. Floyd’s heart stopped beating and his lungs stopped taking in air while he was being restrained by law enforcement. The one-page summary also noted that Mr. Floyd was intoxicated with fentanyl and had recently used methamphetamines.
The criminal complaint said that the autopsy “revealed no physical findings that support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation.” Mr. Floyd, the complaint said, had underlying health conditions, including coronary artery disease and hypertensive heart disease.
The cause of death is quite clearly stated. It “also noted” he was intoxicated. It does not say this was the cause of death. It goes on to say:
The private autopsy concluded that even without evidence of “traumatic” asphyxia, such as broken bones, the compression caused by the officers still led to Mr. Floyd’s death by depriving his brain of blood and oxygen and his lungs of air.
We are not emphasizing the drugs because RS don’t We do include it in the body with more emphasis than the NYTimes as we say these were "significant factors" instead of "also noted". Perhaps that should be changed. O3000 ( talk) 20:43, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
OK, I will provide another stellar source. The Washington Post [2]:
Two autopsies of George Floyd differ on exactly what caused his death, but they agree on this much: The 46-year-old African American man was a victim of homicide. The Hennepin County Medical Examiner released a report Monday saying that Floyd died of “cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression.” The report notes that Floyd also suffered from heart disease, fentanyl intoxication and recent methamphetamine use, but it does not list those factors in the cause of death.
Again, it was a homicide and it “notes”, as a medical report always should, that he had other medically related problems. But, did not list those factors in the cause of death. There is an effort here to place in the lead a suggestion that he was at fault for his own death when the medical reports say no such thing. This is a WP:BLP and requires great care and excellent sourcing. O3000 ( talk) 00:29, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
that the manner of death was homicide. The county attributed the cause of death to “cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression.”That's about as clear as you can get. OTOH, it gave zero indication that drugs caused the death, as some would like to suggest in a BLP about a recently deceased person in an encyclopedia. O3000 ( talk) 01:27, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
that the manner of death was homicide. The county attributed the cause of death to “cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression.” In other words, Mr. Floyd’s heart stopped beating and his lungs stopped taking in air while he was being restrained by law enforcement."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_w9GA1RBQ0o
I await your "But, but, but..." counterargument. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.70.64.219 ( talk) 18:51, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
The article covers Floyd's condition as follows:
"An autopsy report by Hennepin County medical examiner on George Floyd stated that he was positive for SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, at the time of his arrest. The report also indicates that Floyd had fentanyl and methamphetamine in his system at the time of his death, although this is not listed as the cause of death.[27] An independent medical autopsy commissioned by Floyd's family stated "evidence is consistent with mechanical asphyxia as the cause of Floyd's death", the death was a homicide, and Floyd had no underlying medical problem that caused or contributed to his death.[28][29]"
Given the fact covered by multiple credible sources and backed by direct evidence cited by those sources, it is clear that the potentially fatal level of fentanyl in the Floyd's bloodstream is a more important fact from the autopsy report than COVID. It is true that fentanyl is not listed as the cause of death, but the medical examiner is now documented to have identified a fatal level of fentanyl in the bloodstream. Further, in the discussion above, ( User:Adoring nanny) has summarized the reference to the Fox news reference in a misleading way. In reference to the fatal level of fentanyl in Floyd's bloodstream, the medical examiner said "I'm not saying it killed him." This is not the same as saying the fentanyl did not kill him. Further, the autopsy report as cited by Fox above states that there is no physical evidence of asphyxiation, which is contrary to the plaintiff's expert witness position, and the countervailing information in the Hennepin County medical examiner's report is omitted. Finally the autopsy "commissioned by Floyd's family" is not "independent." That is an assertion of which elevates the opinion of the examiner who did not have access to the physical evidence or the toxicology report at the time the statement was made above the opinion of the Hennepin medical examiner.
In light of this, I offer the following to replace the paragraph above:
An autopsy report by Hennepin County medical examiner on George Floyd stated that, at the time of his arrest, he was suffering from a potentially lethal level of fentanyl in his bloodstream, was positive for SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, and that Floyd had methamphetamine in his system, although none of these are listed as the cause of death. In addition, “The autopsy revealed no physical evidence suggesting that Mr. Floyd died of asphyxiation.” [1] [2] A medical autopsy commissioned by Floyd's family stated "evidence is consistent with mechanical asphyxia as the cause of Floyd's death", the death was a homicide, and Floyd had no underlying medical problem that caused or contributed to his death. [3] [4]
JAQUINO ( talk) 00:55, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
potentially lethal" dose though. It was not a fatal dose as he didn't die from it. We don't know if it was a lethal dose for Floyd either, just that it could have been based on LD50s and medical evidence.
There is no new information here. Our article accurately reflects the opinions of the two pathologists, without inserting our own interpretation as is being attempted here. -- MelanieN ( talk) 05:17, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
I think the lead should be straightforward, and not unduly pick which theories to give weight to in the lead. I've removed autoposy details from the lead before it comes bloated with POV to satisfy NPOV.— Bagumba ( talk) 05:49, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
Potentially lethal level of fentanyl seems to be a significant fact here. Whether or not it was the reason of death, it was a significant factor at least, which was highlighted by dr. Andrew Baker, so the fact of the dose being potentially lethal should be mentioned at least in "autopsies" section, as well as "This level of fentanyl can cause pulmonary edema. Mr. Floyd’s lungs were 2-3x their normal weight at autopsy" from the report. adamant.pwn — contrib/ talk 15:00, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
References
Current:
Other significant conditions were arteriosclerotic heart disease, hypertensive heart disease, fentanyl intoxication, and recent methamphetamine use.
Proposed:
Other significant conditions were arteriosclerotic heart disease, hypertensive heart disease, a potentially fatal level of fentanyl intoxication, and recent methamphetamine use.
JAQUINO ( talk) 18:48, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
The issue of cause of death is obviously central to the case, and Causation (law) is a difficult area, to say the least. I think we should follow WP:WikiVoice on this question; specifically, describe disputes, but not engage in them. There are at least three points of view that should be described: that of the medical examiner (who should come first), that of the family, and that of the defence. I've made a start on that with some recent edits. Adoring nanny ( talk) 18:23, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
I've been following this talk page, and I've found that most of what I wanted to say has been said by someone else. However, I think two subjects have not been addressed adequately: 1) the effects of fentanyl and 2) what the pathologist said about it. So I'm dipping my toes into the water and talking on Wikipedia, something I've never done before. Those of you who are experienced at this, please be patient with me, and I'm open to suggestions.
Fentanyl is a powerful opioid that is about 100 times stronger than morphine ( /info/en/?search=Fentanyl). The Wikipedia article says, "The most dangerous adverse effect of fentanyl is respiratory depression, or the decreased ability to breathe." Floyd had 11 ng/mL blood concentration, and overdose deaths have been reported as low as 3 ng/mL. ( https://www.hennepin.us/-/media/hennepinus/residents/public-safety/documents/floyd-autopsy-6-3-20.pdf).
These are key facts for this article because Floyd's main problem seemed to be decreased ability to breathe. As has been noted elsewhere in this talk page, in a followup interview Andrew Baker (the medical examiner) indicated that if Floyd's body had been found at home, he would have called it a fentanyl overdose, i.e. Baker zeroed in on the fact that 11 ng/mL is a lot of fentanyl. In my opinion, Floyd's fentanyl intoxication is more important than the fact that he tested positive to SARS-CoV-2 (the autopsy report actually calls it 2019-nCoV), which is currently mentioned in the paragraph about the autopsy.
By the way, I'm amazed that the autopsy report isn't referenced in the article (If I missed it, please tell me where it is referenced). It is by far the most reliable source of information on this issue. I recognize that it is a primary source, which Wikipedia discourages, but the Wikipedia policy on primary sources is "...primary sources that have been reputably published may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them." ( /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:No_original_research) The autopsy report has clearly been reputably published at the Hennepin County website and is the findings of the medical examiner, which, as Adoring Nanny points out, should be the first point of view to present. It is certainly a more reliable source than articles written by news media reporters, which currently are the only references in the paragraph discussing the autopsy.
However, Baker doesn't list fentanyl as the cause of death. Determining a lethal dose of fentanyl (or any opioid) depends on the deceased person's history. People who have been using opioids build up a tolerance for them. If Floyd had been using fentanyl for a long time, he could have tolerated a blood concentration that would have killed the average person. On the other hand, if May 25, 2020 was the first time he took fentanyl, then fentanyl could be the primary cause of death. That's why Baker, when discussing fentanyl, said, "I'm not saying it killed him." Baker would have to know more about Floyd's history of using fentanyl to make a judgment. So far, I haven't seen any discussion of Floyd's history of fentanyl use. Have I missed something?
I propose that the paragraph discussing the autopsy be modified to read as follows:
The medical examiner's final findings were released on June 1 in two documents - a Press Release Report ( https://www.minnpost.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/2020-3700_Floyd__George_Perry.pdf) and the official autopsy report. ( https://www.hennepin.us/-/media/hennepinus/residents/public-safety/documents/floyd-autopsy-6-3-20.pdf)[85] The press release classified Floyd's death as a homicide caused by "a cardiopulmonary arrest while being restrained" by officers who had subjected Floyd to "neck compression".[86][87] Other significant conditions were arteriosclerotic heart disease, hypertensive heart disease, fentanyl intoxication, and recent methamphetamine use.[83][86] The autopsy report lists Floyd's fentanyl blood concentration as 11 ng/mL, and the "Reference Comments" section of the report states that fatalities from fentanyl have been reported as low as 3 ng/mL. The report also states that on April 3 Floyd had tested positive for 2019-nCoV (another name for COVID-19), but states that positivity to 2019-nCoV can persist for weeks after recovery, and "...the autopsy result most likely reflects asymptomatic but persistent PCR positivity from previous infection." [88][89] Radiochemicals ( talk) 18:51, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
Notes are more verbose with details like "This level of fentanyl can cause pulmonary edema. Mr. Floyd’s lungs were 2-3x their normal weight at autopsy. That is fatal level of fentanyl under normal circumstances" which I think also may contribute to the article, but since it's a primary source and there are many opposses to it, I'd suggest to directly cite how NY Times covered the case, it doesn't go into excessive verbosity but still says that fentanyl level was pretty high, as noted by Dr. Baker. adamant.pwn — contrib/ talk 22:01, 6 September 2020 (UTC)According to prosecutors' notes filed into evidence, Hennepin County Medical Examiner Andrew Baker told prosecutors that the level of meth in Floyd's system was low, but that the level of fentanyl was high. Had Floyd been found alone with no other contributing factors, Baker said he could conclude Floyd overdosed, according to the notes
I think there's useful information here. It's just a matter of putting it in the article in a proper way. The useful info is that a motion was filed with the court. Here's a possible addition to the article which starts a new subsection.
References
I tried adding it [10] but it was reverted with the suggestion that I discuss it here. Bob K31416 ( talk) 21:24, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
At the same time, prosecutors in the case against Chauvin and three other former Minneapolis police officers said they plan to seek stiff sentences if the men are convicted. They said in court documents that Floyd was vulnerable because he was handcuffed with his chest pressed against the ground and he was treated "with particular cruelty.""Despite Mr. Floyd's pleas that he could not breathe and was going to die, as well as the pleas of eyewitnesses to get off Mr. Floyd and help him, Defendant and his co-defendants continued to restrain Mr. Floyd," the prosecutors wrote.Koncorde ( talk) 01:31, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
Here's a version with a revised second sentence.
References
Bob K31416 ( talk) 01:23, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
"Defense attorney Eric J. Nelson filed the motion in Hennepin County, Minnesota, District Court on Friday, claiming prosecutors have failed to show probable cause for charging Derek Chauvin with second-degree unintentional murder, third-degree murder and second-degree manslaughter."by only referencing the drug use we appear to be missing out a good chunk of the arguments made about why it should be dimissed. Koncorde ( talk) 01:35, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
(fill in your favorite quote). O3000 ( talk) 01:51, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
So far there doesn't appear to be anything in the article from Chauvin or his lawyers about his defense. Bob K31416 ( talk) 22:02, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
O3000, Would you care to add the above item (in my 01:23, 31 August 2020 message) to the article yourself? Bob K31416 ( talk) 18:18, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
See
SO, Stayfree76, let's DISCUSS your actions here, on the talk page, which you should have done first instead of reverting my & ClueBot III's actions. Shearonink ( talk) 18:16, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
I've changed the timeout from 10 to 7 days. 5 was fine, but compromising on a week. With the amount of people monitoring this page, a stale conversation is unlikely to get consensus or has become to bloated and should reset. Making it too long encourages people to manually archive, and bad faith accusations of bias typically follow. People can IAR and undo individual archiving when warranted.— Bagumba ( talk) 12:10, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
I'm wondering if we need to use a quote here. This phraseology seems a bit NPOV. —valereee ( talk) 22:19, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
I don't believe the lead wording sufficiently describes the scope of the protests, "Floyd's death triggered subsequent protests against police brutality...' The word "subsequent" is redundant, and propose, "Floyd's death triggered national and international protests against police brutality..." as referenced in the article. Ward20 ( talk) 01:24, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
The widespread protests that were sparked after the death of George Floyd at the hands of Minneapolis police are getting support from others around the world.[13]— Bagumba ( talk) 12:17, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
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Autopsy reports actually told that George Floyd's death was caused by a fentanyl overdose. 71.161.222.246 ( talk) 02:29, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
The lead as it currently stands begins with the date of the incident -- I propose moving the date later in the sentence, instead beginning the article with Floyd's name. I also propose changing the phrasing at the end of the sentence from the indirect 'during an arrest' to 'while being arrested'. I personally prefer this wording as it is more direct and removes the small amount of ambiguity -- we shouldn't assume that the reader is aware that George Floyd is the person being arrested, and the first sentence in the article is the most important place to be specific, precise, and unambiguous. These are the changes:
1. On May 25, 2020, George Floyd, a 46-year-old African-American man, was killed in Minneapolis, Minnesota, on May 25, 2020, during an arrest for allegedly using a counterfeit bill.
2. On May 25, 2020, George Floyd, a 46-year-old African-American man, was killed in Minneapolis, Minnesota, on May 25, 2020, during an arrest while being arrested for allegedly using a counterfeit bill.
I'd appreciate any thoughts and opinions regarding these options. Thanks, Pais arepa 03:07, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
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Killing of George Floyd has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
These four sentences in the third paragraph of the "Arrest and death" section are written in present tense: "Lane taps his flashlight on the window, startling Floyd. He asks Floyd to show his hands, and taps again when he does not abide. Floyd apologizes as he opens the car door. Lane instructs him three more times to show his hands." They should be changed to past tense for consistency with the rest of the article: "Lane tapped his flashlight on the window, startling Floyd. He asked Floyd to show his hands, and tapped again when he did not abide. Floyd apologized as he opened the car door. Lane instructed him three more times to show his hands." 2601:985:301:BE06:BC10:489B:3E92:8F4F ( talk) 02:06, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
I already added the following text to George Floyd but I'm not entirely sure about putting it here.
On September 18, 2020, the Minneapolis City Council approved designating the section of Chicago Avenue between 37th and 39th Streets as George Perry Floyd Jr. Place, with a marker at the intersection with 38th Street where the incident took place. [1]— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 20:51, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
References
in the section "Chauvin kneels on Floyd's neck" it says the following:
i feel like having the article list all of the things a random "passerby [or witness?]" said makes the section much more complicated that it should needs to be. i can barely follow the events since the entire section is just listing off events as they happened on video (in very shorts sentences) instead of giving a more Wikipedia-like summary. with that being said, i think they should be removed or at a minimum moved to another section titles "on scene witness comments" or something.
StayFree76
talk
20:17, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
Per
MOS:QUOTE: While quotations are an indispensable part of Wikipedia, try not to overuse them. Using too many quotes is incompatible with an encyclopedic writing style and may be a copyright infringement. It is generally recommended that content be written in Wikipedia editors' own words.
I think sometimes editors are wary of being accused of a POV summary and resort to quoting verbatim.—
Bagumba (
talk)
02:43, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
Whats the plan on this? shall i propose a new paragraph here? StayFree76 talk 15:52, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
based on the convo above i decided to rework the first 2 sub sections, the third should follow (but im tired now). this is going to be long. one thing i noticed is that the current state bounces back between past tense, past continuous tense, and present tense. I tried to convert it all to simple past tense, but i might have missed some. please fix, edit, whatever you think since this is just a recommendation of what i think it should be something like. i am not hard set on anything in particular, and just want to make the article actually readable. in many cases i removed extra details from sentences that seemed WP:Too_much_detail. examples of this were listing per minute timestamps, number of police cars, restating officers names/ specific officer every time (one of them did it should be all that matters, imo), paraphrased what people said if it was relevant, random details eg. (across the street, next to the store, direction someone was looking).
request to change this: Killing of George Floyd#Initial_events to:
On the evening of May 25, 2020, at about 8:00 pm, Floyd purchased cigarettes at Cup Foods, a grocery store at the intersection of East 38th Street and Chicago Avenue in the Powderhorn Park neighborhood of Minneapolis. A store employee believed Floyd had paid with a counterfeit $20 bill.[11][15] Two employees left the store and approached the Floyd's vehicle.[11]:1:25[15]:1:33[47] The employees asked Floyd return the cigarettes, but he refused.[15]:1:43[2] Soon after, a store employee called the police to report that Floyd had passed "fake bills", was "awfully drunk", and "not in control of himself".[11]:1:33[15]:1:51[c] The interaction was filmed by the restaurant's security camera.[11]:0:49[15]:1:24[48][b]
A few minutes later, Kueng and Lane briefly entered Cup Foods before approaching Floyd's vehicle.[11]:1:41[15]:2:00 Lane tapped the window with his flashlight,[50][51] asking Floyd to show his hands. Floyd, not compliant, apologized as he opened the car door. Lane then drew his gun and ordered Floyd to show his hands.[50] Once Floyd complied, Lane holstered his weapon.[2][52] Following a brief struggle,[11]:2:10 Lane pulled Floyd from the SUV and handcuffed him.[15]:2:20 Floyd was sat down on the sidewalk [11]:2:22[15]:2:33 and was asked if he was "on something", to which he responded "No". The officers mentioned he was acting erratic, and inquired about the foam around his mouth, but he said had been "hooping"[d] earlier.[53][55][54] The officers initiated Floyd's arrest and walked him to their police car.[9] Once there, Floyd fell to the ground. He was picked up and placed against the car's door.[11]:2:42[15]:3:00 While they attempted to put him in the car he said he couldn't breathe and offered to lay on the ground instead.[9][56][57] Soon after, Chauvin and Thao arrived on the scene[11]:3:32[15]:3:27 with Chauvin assuming command,[8] asking if an arrest had been made.[53] After a struggle, according to The New York Times, Chauvin pulled Floyd across the backseat.[15]:3:56 Then, according to NPR, Floyd exited the vehicle, but it was unclear whether he was pulled or pushed himself out[60] before falling to the pavement.[2]
According to prosecutors, Floyd said he was not resisting and stated he was recovering from COVID-19, he was claustrophobic and had anxiety, and that he did not want to sit in the car.[8][9][15]:3:10[56] During and interview, Lane said he saw Floyd bleeding from the mouth and attributed it to him thrashing around in the car and hitting his face on the glass.[58]
request to change this: Killing of George Floyd#Chauvin_kneels_on_Floyd's_neck to:
While Floyd was on the ground, Chauvin knelt on his neck.[60] Floyd stopped moving a few minutes later, though he was still conscious.[11]:4:10 Multiple witnesses began to film the encounter and their videos were later circulated widely on the internet.[2][15]:4:06 Kueng applied pressure to Floyd's torso, Lane applied pressure to Floyd's legs, and Thao stood nearby.[11]:4:13[15]:4:11[2] While restrained, Floyd repeatedly said "I can't breathe", "Please", and "Mama";[2][11]:4:44[15]:4:28 Lane requested and ambulance for bleeding from the mouth.[55] Floyd continued to say that he could not breathe up to 16 times.[15]:5:46 Chauvin told Floyd to relax in response to him saying he was "about to die".[62] The ambulance request was escalated to emergency status.[11]:4:50[15]:4:42 Chauvin continued to kneel on Floyd's neck.[15]:5:15 The officers stated Floyd was talking so he is "fine". Observers argued with the officers restraint, stating that Floyd was not resisting and he was not "ok".[66][67] Soon after, Floyd appeared unconscious, confronted the officers asking for a pulse check.[11]:5:22[15]:6:53[2] Chauvin pulled out mace to keep bystanders away.[69][70] Floyd's wrist was checked for a pulse, but it was not found.[2] The officers did not provide Floyd with medical assistance.[15]:6:46
StayFree76 talk 21:13, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
are there no objections to this change then?
StayFree76
talk
16:18, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
discussion continuing Talk:Killing_of_George_Floyd#Random_Sentence_in_Section.
proposed change: [14] [15] (images of diffs)
@ Shearonink: i didn't mean that as an insult to your intelligence and if that's how you took it (or that's how i came off), i apologize. i must have misunderstood, but it just seemed off because the format is identical to wikis change management system. also, to be clear, i was not challenging your presence, but your strong opinions after so many opportunities to discuss were provided before hand (like 3 or 4 over 10 days).
@ Paisarepa: its the first part of this discussion. i didn't just throw changes out willy nilly. see: Talk:Killing_of_George_Floyd#Random_Sentence_in_Section. as for changing the tone, i already mentioned that was not my intention, but i also stated this:
"based on the convo above i decided to rework the first 2 sub sections, the third should follow (but im tired now). this is going to be long. one thing i noticed is that the current state bounces back between past tense, past continuous tense, and present tense. I tried to convert it all to simple past tense, but i might have missed some. please fix, edit, whatever you think since this is just a recommendation of what i think it should be something like. i am not hard set on anything in particular, and just want to make the article actually readable. in many cases i removed extra details from sentences that seemed WP:Too_much_detail. examples of this were listing per minute timestamps, number of police cars, restating officers names/ specific officer every time (one of them did it should be all that matters, imo), paraphrased what people said if it was relevant, random details eg. (across the street, next to the store, direction someone was looking)." - me 10 days ago
StayFree76 talk 16:59, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
Whats the plan on this? shall i propose a new paragraph here?, to which you replied with sure, do change x to y, etc. that is exactly what i did. if it is too much to handle there is not much else that i can do about it. the problem is a big problem that spans the entire section. based on the discussions its apparent that smaller changes will be better and for that i think enough consensus has been given for should be changed. because of that i will just edit the article directly per normal and we can follow the standard revert and discuss cycle if needed. i think everyone will find that the changes will be a breath of fresh air and make the article much more readable. i think GF especially, but everyone else also, deserve that. StayFree76 talk 16:48, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
The lead paragraph states that George Floyd said "I can't breathe" and "please" while he was pinned. However, George Floyd was pleading before he was on the road [1] [2]. This should be changed immediately. NPOV Enthusiast ( talk) 08:45, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
References
"Derek Chauvin, a white police officer, knelt on Floyd's neck for several minutes[a] while Floyd was handcuffed, lying face down, and repeatedly saying "I can't breathe" and "please", and calling for his mother." NPOV Enthusiast ( talk) 02:30, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
I made an example edit of this suggestion, take it or leave it. If taking it, maybe cut and paste the citations, too, I can't on this gizmo. Also removed "please" as an uninformative fragment (please what?), saved 26 bytes. InedibleHulk ( talk) 00:20, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
The medical examiner's final findings, issued June 1,[85] classified Floyd's death as a homicide caused by "a cardiopulmonary arrest while being restrained" by officers who had subjected Floyd to "neck compression".[86][87]
He found that the "evidence is consistent with mechanical asphyxia as the cause of Floyd's death", and that the death was a homicide.[94][95][92] He said Floyd died from "asphyxia due to compression of the neck", affecting "blood flow and oxygen going into the brain", and also from "compression of the back, which interferes with breathing".[83]Koncorde ( talk) 02:35, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
You have pointed at exactly no facts, but a whole lot of your own personal research and feels. Stop pushing for false balance when the significance of his death has nothing to do with whether the RS are being fair on the cops. The manner in which he died, and not your personal opinion on his superhuman like efforts to not die, is the crux of the article. Two autopsies say he was killed. Not suicide, not death by cop, not his health. He died, while begging not to be killed, as police officers pinned him to the ground - and the subsequent fallout of his death - is what the article and lede is about. Not plausible deniability or trying to shift the balance to blame the man who died, or mitigate his suffering by inferring that by somehow complaining about his breathing prior to being "subdued" and "restrained" makes things better or the lede more relevant. Koncorde ( talk) 22:47, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
Positional asphyxia is a death that occurs when a subject's body position interferes with breathing. This training bulletin informs Chicago Police Department members of potentially dangerous restraint positions that must be avoided during custodial arrest and transportation. Positional asphyxia can occur when a subject's chest is restricted from expanding properly or the position of the subject's head obstructs the airway. Officers should never: restrain a subject's hands and legs together; leave a subject in control restraints lying on his back or stomach; put weight on the subject's back for a prolonged period; or keep a subject waiting for transportation in a restrained position without proper monitoring. The risk of positional asphyxia increases in the presence of alcohol intoxication, drugs, physical ailments, delirium, or respiratory diseases. When feasible, officers should handcuff an arrestee with both hands behind his back, palms outward. Although most officers have no reason to expect death to result from restraining a subject, it can happen. The bulletin claims that exercising caution and common sense can lessen the potential for in-custody deaths from positional asphyxia.
The medical examiner's report said, "Cause of death: Cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression." [26] What does that mean? (Not an argument here, just trying to see what the understanding of this is.) Bob K31416 ( talk) 05:20, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
in the section "Memorials, protests, and reactions", most if not all days are just in "Month Day" format. shouldn't these all be referenced in a way explicitly showing 2020 so that info doesn't get lost over time? tbh, i don't know the exact formatting that it should be and think listing the year every time seems a bit excessive, but maybe the first date in each paragraph could list the year 2020? StayFree76 talk 17:20, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
In relation to the above toxicology report, as well as his enlarged lungs and massive fentynal overdose, the cause of death will always be in some doubt. We do not know if the knee was the cause, or the fentynal/water on the lungs. So we do not know if this was a "killing" or a "death." SInce the word "Death" covers both possibilities, the title of the article, as well as wording within it, should be changed to "The Death of George Floyd." Said with sympathy for all involved in this tragedy.```` — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.25.161.114 ( talk) 16:25, 2 October 2020 (UTC)
@ NorthBySouthBaranof: Hi NorthBySouthBaranof, I don't want to start some edit war. All I wanted to do was place information regarding the toxicological status of Mr. Floyd in the Lead paragraph of this article. I am going to place some Q&A below to prevent back and forth.
"Why in the lead paragraph?": Because the fact that Mr. Floyd was on a fatal dose of fentanyl at the time of his killing has serious implications for the rest of the article, it is important that the reader knows this information before continuing to the rest of the article.
"Why do I have to specify fatal?": Because even though any amount of narcotics in one's system may contribute to death, having a fatal dose guarantees the death of a user. The distinction between fatal dosage and any dosage is extremely important for any reader trying to educate themselves on this event.
"Why do I want this fact in the article at all?": Because the fact that he was on a Fatal dosage of fentanyl at the time of his death is an extremely important factor that many people are not educated about, placing it in this article will insure that more people are properly educated on the event.
I also was using a Secondary source (NPR), as well as a reputable primary source (An official Medical examiner's report). However, it seemed that you reverted my edit almost instantly, if it was it seemed as if it was an edit war, it was not, a user by the name of "Bagumba" was providing advice on what to add next.
Thanks, JazzClam ( talk) 19:20, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
ng/mL, with a mean of 9.96". This means that the average fatal dosage is around 10 ng/ml, and with Mr. Floyd having a dosage of 11 ng/ml, he is within the fatality range. Upon your response I will add the information to the article with the average fatal dosage.
While information must be verifiable to be included in an article, all verifiable information need not be included in an article. Consensus may determine that certain information does not improve an article ...If something someone proposes makes sense, they're expected to gain supporters other than just themself. Regards.— Bagumba ( talk) 02:05, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
I support JazzClam's proposal. That information is highly pertinent to understanding the events of that day. Crescent77 ( talk) 05:07, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
@ NorthBySouthBaranof:@ Crescent77:@ Lester Mobley:@ Bagumba:@ Bob K31416: Hi all, I have pinged everyone who has taken part in this conversation to get your opinion on what my plan is. Below i have attached the full toxicological report on Mr Floyd, I am going to place it in a subsection of the "autopsies" section, labeled "Toxicological Report" meaning it will be section 3.2.1, please, feel free to add criticism. Now, some may add, that "Why, at this point, do I care about adding this information in, given that it will be relegated to a subsection of a section?" Because this Tox report is a significant part of the Hennepin County autopsy, and is a piece of information that many people are not educated on. I believe that the goal of wikipedia is to present the whole truth, and while this article not including this tox report is, technically, truthful, it is not presenting the full truth, that is undeniable.
Compound | Result | Units | Description |
---|---|---|---|
Caffeine | Positive | mcg/mL | A common stimulant of the methylxanthine class [1] |
Cotinine | Positive | ng/mL | An Alkaloid of Tobacco and the predominant metabolite of Nicotine [2] |
4-ANPP | 0.65 | ng/mL | A direct precursor to Fentanyl [3] |
11-Hydroxy Delta-9 THC | 1.2 | ng/mL | The main active metabolite of THC, which is formed after the consumption of Cannabis [4] |
Delta-9 Carboxy THC | 42 | ng/mL | The main secondary metabolite of THC, which is formed after the consumption of Cannabis [5] |
Delta-9 THC | 2.9 | ng/mL | The primary psychoactive component of Cannabis [6] |
Methamphetamine | 19 | ng/mL | A potent Central Nervous System (CNS) stimulant primarily used as an illicit recreational drug [7] |
Fentanyl | 11 | ng/mL | An opioid used as a pain medication, as well as an illicit recreational drug. [8] [9] |
Norfentanyl | 5.6 | ng/mL | The immediate precursor chemical used for the illicit manufacture of Fentanyl, often left behind as the result of unbalanced or impure chemical reactions. [10] |
Morphine | 86 | ng/mL | A pain medication of the opiate family that is naturally found in many plants and animals, including humans. [11] |
References
— Preceding unsigned comment added by JazzClam ( talk • contribs) 13:28, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
You might think that it is a great place to set the record straight and right great wrongs, but that's not the case ... So, if you want to ... Vindicate a convicted murderer you believe to be innocent ... on Wikipedia, you'll have to wait until it's been reported in mainstream media or published in books from reputable publishing houses. Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought or original research. Wikipedia doesn't lead; we follow. Let reliable sources make the novel connections and statements.— Bagumba ( talk) 15:44, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
Can I have the quote for the NYT that supports "might have increased the likelihood of death"? Slatersteven ( talk) 11:50, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
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Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 |
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
As is now known from evidence heretofore suppresed, Gorge Floyd had a fatal level of fentanyl in his bloodstream at the time of his death. [1]
Therefore this article needs to change.
First it should be the "Death of George Floyd" and not the "Killing of George Floyd."
Second the fact that Floyd was suffering from a fatal dose of fentanyl at the time of his death needs to be prominently reported.
Third, the full report of the medical examiner should be linked, which documents that there was no evidence of physical strangulation.
There is a good case that this article simply should be taken down because it is hopelessly biased in favor of the assertion that the presumed innocent police officers are guilty, in spite of the key facts that have come to light. The article is clearly an editorial which seeks to try these officers in the court of public opinion. It has no place on Wikipedia.
Please bear in mind that likely innocent men are being tried for murder and the substance of this article is such that the chance of a fair trial is reduced. It would be more appropriate for the article to be taken down. Once the trial is over, if the case is not dismissed before it goes to trial, then at least all of that evidence will presumably have come to light.
JAQUINO ( talk) 23:42, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
References
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The medical examiner "said that if Mr Floyd had been found dead in his home (or anywhere else) and there were no other contributing factors he would conclude that it was an overdose death."
[1]
The medical examiner said "no bruising in neck on any muscles or injuries to structures" and "No bruises on back, or evidence of blunt trauma to back." [2] JAQUINO ( talk) 02:46, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
The KARE story linked to above says:
"If he were found dead at home alone and no other apparent causes, this could be acceptable to call an OD. Deaths have been certified with levels of 3," Baker told investigators.
In another new document, Baker said, "That is a fatal level of fentanyl under normal circumstances."
But then Baker added, "I am not saying this killed him."
Kinda forgot to mention that last part. Le v!v ich 03:55, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
We generally rely on WP:SECONDARY sources, not primary. The concern stated at your previous post was whether there was enough sources to satisfy WP:EXCEPTIONAL.— Bagumba ( talk) 03:57, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
Here are multiple secondary sources:
[3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10]
The article needs to reflect these important developments. JAQUINO ( talk) 11:05, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
References
When are you going to update the cause of death and charges being dropped? Zs004411339922 ( talk) 20:58, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
To simply call it a homicide is misleading (not untrue), especially with all the police brutality and suffocation talk in the lead for context. Drugs and heart problem are precisely as well-sourced as the part on which some editors would rather focus. Not a NPOV, see revision at 19:59 today for better alternative. InedibleHulk ( talk) 20:07, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
NYTimes [1]:
Shortly after the family’s autopsy findings were announced, the Hennepin County medical examiner released its own findings, also concluding that the manner of death was homicide. The county attributed the cause of death to “cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression.”
In other words, Mr. Floyd’s heart stopped beating and his lungs stopped taking in air while he was being restrained by law enforcement. The one-page summary also noted that Mr. Floyd was intoxicated with fentanyl and had recently used methamphetamines.
The criminal complaint said that the autopsy “revealed no physical findings that support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation.” Mr. Floyd, the complaint said, had underlying health conditions, including coronary artery disease and hypertensive heart disease.
The cause of death is quite clearly stated. It “also noted” he was intoxicated. It does not say this was the cause of death. It goes on to say:
The private autopsy concluded that even without evidence of “traumatic” asphyxia, such as broken bones, the compression caused by the officers still led to Mr. Floyd’s death by depriving his brain of blood and oxygen and his lungs of air.
We are not emphasizing the drugs because RS don’t We do include it in the body with more emphasis than the NYTimes as we say these were "significant factors" instead of "also noted". Perhaps that should be changed. O3000 ( talk) 20:43, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
OK, I will provide another stellar source. The Washington Post [2]:
Two autopsies of George Floyd differ on exactly what caused his death, but they agree on this much: The 46-year-old African American man was a victim of homicide. The Hennepin County Medical Examiner released a report Monday saying that Floyd died of “cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression.” The report notes that Floyd also suffered from heart disease, fentanyl intoxication and recent methamphetamine use, but it does not list those factors in the cause of death.
Again, it was a homicide and it “notes”, as a medical report always should, that he had other medically related problems. But, did not list those factors in the cause of death. There is an effort here to place in the lead a suggestion that he was at fault for his own death when the medical reports say no such thing. This is a WP:BLP and requires great care and excellent sourcing. O3000 ( talk) 00:29, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
that the manner of death was homicide. The county attributed the cause of death to “cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression.”That's about as clear as you can get. OTOH, it gave zero indication that drugs caused the death, as some would like to suggest in a BLP about a recently deceased person in an encyclopedia. O3000 ( talk) 01:27, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
that the manner of death was homicide. The county attributed the cause of death to “cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression.” In other words, Mr. Floyd’s heart stopped beating and his lungs stopped taking in air while he was being restrained by law enforcement."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_w9GA1RBQ0o
I await your "But, but, but..." counterargument. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.70.64.219 ( talk) 18:51, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
The article covers Floyd's condition as follows:
"An autopsy report by Hennepin County medical examiner on George Floyd stated that he was positive for SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, at the time of his arrest. The report also indicates that Floyd had fentanyl and methamphetamine in his system at the time of his death, although this is not listed as the cause of death.[27] An independent medical autopsy commissioned by Floyd's family stated "evidence is consistent with mechanical asphyxia as the cause of Floyd's death", the death was a homicide, and Floyd had no underlying medical problem that caused or contributed to his death.[28][29]"
Given the fact covered by multiple credible sources and backed by direct evidence cited by those sources, it is clear that the potentially fatal level of fentanyl in the Floyd's bloodstream is a more important fact from the autopsy report than COVID. It is true that fentanyl is not listed as the cause of death, but the medical examiner is now documented to have identified a fatal level of fentanyl in the bloodstream. Further, in the discussion above, ( User:Adoring nanny) has summarized the reference to the Fox news reference in a misleading way. In reference to the fatal level of fentanyl in Floyd's bloodstream, the medical examiner said "I'm not saying it killed him." This is not the same as saying the fentanyl did not kill him. Further, the autopsy report as cited by Fox above states that there is no physical evidence of asphyxiation, which is contrary to the plaintiff's expert witness position, and the countervailing information in the Hennepin County medical examiner's report is omitted. Finally the autopsy "commissioned by Floyd's family" is not "independent." That is an assertion of which elevates the opinion of the examiner who did not have access to the physical evidence or the toxicology report at the time the statement was made above the opinion of the Hennepin medical examiner.
In light of this, I offer the following to replace the paragraph above:
An autopsy report by Hennepin County medical examiner on George Floyd stated that, at the time of his arrest, he was suffering from a potentially lethal level of fentanyl in his bloodstream, was positive for SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, and that Floyd had methamphetamine in his system, although none of these are listed as the cause of death. In addition, “The autopsy revealed no physical evidence suggesting that Mr. Floyd died of asphyxiation.” [1] [2] A medical autopsy commissioned by Floyd's family stated "evidence is consistent with mechanical asphyxia as the cause of Floyd's death", the death was a homicide, and Floyd had no underlying medical problem that caused or contributed to his death. [3] [4]
JAQUINO ( talk) 00:55, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
potentially lethal" dose though. It was not a fatal dose as he didn't die from it. We don't know if it was a lethal dose for Floyd either, just that it could have been based on LD50s and medical evidence.
There is no new information here. Our article accurately reflects the opinions of the two pathologists, without inserting our own interpretation as is being attempted here. -- MelanieN ( talk) 05:17, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
I think the lead should be straightforward, and not unduly pick which theories to give weight to in the lead. I've removed autoposy details from the lead before it comes bloated with POV to satisfy NPOV.— Bagumba ( talk) 05:49, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
Potentially lethal level of fentanyl seems to be a significant fact here. Whether or not it was the reason of death, it was a significant factor at least, which was highlighted by dr. Andrew Baker, so the fact of the dose being potentially lethal should be mentioned at least in "autopsies" section, as well as "This level of fentanyl can cause pulmonary edema. Mr. Floyd’s lungs were 2-3x their normal weight at autopsy" from the report. adamant.pwn — contrib/ talk 15:00, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
References
Current:
Other significant conditions were arteriosclerotic heart disease, hypertensive heart disease, fentanyl intoxication, and recent methamphetamine use.
Proposed:
Other significant conditions were arteriosclerotic heart disease, hypertensive heart disease, a potentially fatal level of fentanyl intoxication, and recent methamphetamine use.
JAQUINO ( talk) 18:48, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
The issue of cause of death is obviously central to the case, and Causation (law) is a difficult area, to say the least. I think we should follow WP:WikiVoice on this question; specifically, describe disputes, but not engage in them. There are at least three points of view that should be described: that of the medical examiner (who should come first), that of the family, and that of the defence. I've made a start on that with some recent edits. Adoring nanny ( talk) 18:23, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
I've been following this talk page, and I've found that most of what I wanted to say has been said by someone else. However, I think two subjects have not been addressed adequately: 1) the effects of fentanyl and 2) what the pathologist said about it. So I'm dipping my toes into the water and talking on Wikipedia, something I've never done before. Those of you who are experienced at this, please be patient with me, and I'm open to suggestions.
Fentanyl is a powerful opioid that is about 100 times stronger than morphine ( /info/en/?search=Fentanyl). The Wikipedia article says, "The most dangerous adverse effect of fentanyl is respiratory depression, or the decreased ability to breathe." Floyd had 11 ng/mL blood concentration, and overdose deaths have been reported as low as 3 ng/mL. ( https://www.hennepin.us/-/media/hennepinus/residents/public-safety/documents/floyd-autopsy-6-3-20.pdf).
These are key facts for this article because Floyd's main problem seemed to be decreased ability to breathe. As has been noted elsewhere in this talk page, in a followup interview Andrew Baker (the medical examiner) indicated that if Floyd's body had been found at home, he would have called it a fentanyl overdose, i.e. Baker zeroed in on the fact that 11 ng/mL is a lot of fentanyl. In my opinion, Floyd's fentanyl intoxication is more important than the fact that he tested positive to SARS-CoV-2 (the autopsy report actually calls it 2019-nCoV), which is currently mentioned in the paragraph about the autopsy.
By the way, I'm amazed that the autopsy report isn't referenced in the article (If I missed it, please tell me where it is referenced). It is by far the most reliable source of information on this issue. I recognize that it is a primary source, which Wikipedia discourages, but the Wikipedia policy on primary sources is "...primary sources that have been reputably published may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them." ( /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:No_original_research) The autopsy report has clearly been reputably published at the Hennepin County website and is the findings of the medical examiner, which, as Adoring Nanny points out, should be the first point of view to present. It is certainly a more reliable source than articles written by news media reporters, which currently are the only references in the paragraph discussing the autopsy.
However, Baker doesn't list fentanyl as the cause of death. Determining a lethal dose of fentanyl (or any opioid) depends on the deceased person's history. People who have been using opioids build up a tolerance for them. If Floyd had been using fentanyl for a long time, he could have tolerated a blood concentration that would have killed the average person. On the other hand, if May 25, 2020 was the first time he took fentanyl, then fentanyl could be the primary cause of death. That's why Baker, when discussing fentanyl, said, "I'm not saying it killed him." Baker would have to know more about Floyd's history of using fentanyl to make a judgment. So far, I haven't seen any discussion of Floyd's history of fentanyl use. Have I missed something?
I propose that the paragraph discussing the autopsy be modified to read as follows:
The medical examiner's final findings were released on June 1 in two documents - a Press Release Report ( https://www.minnpost.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/2020-3700_Floyd__George_Perry.pdf) and the official autopsy report. ( https://www.hennepin.us/-/media/hennepinus/residents/public-safety/documents/floyd-autopsy-6-3-20.pdf)[85] The press release classified Floyd's death as a homicide caused by "a cardiopulmonary arrest while being restrained" by officers who had subjected Floyd to "neck compression".[86][87] Other significant conditions were arteriosclerotic heart disease, hypertensive heart disease, fentanyl intoxication, and recent methamphetamine use.[83][86] The autopsy report lists Floyd's fentanyl blood concentration as 11 ng/mL, and the "Reference Comments" section of the report states that fatalities from fentanyl have been reported as low as 3 ng/mL. The report also states that on April 3 Floyd had tested positive for 2019-nCoV (another name for COVID-19), but states that positivity to 2019-nCoV can persist for weeks after recovery, and "...the autopsy result most likely reflects asymptomatic but persistent PCR positivity from previous infection." [88][89] Radiochemicals ( talk) 18:51, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
Notes are more verbose with details like "This level of fentanyl can cause pulmonary edema. Mr. Floyd’s lungs were 2-3x their normal weight at autopsy. That is fatal level of fentanyl under normal circumstances" which I think also may contribute to the article, but since it's a primary source and there are many opposses to it, I'd suggest to directly cite how NY Times covered the case, it doesn't go into excessive verbosity but still says that fentanyl level was pretty high, as noted by Dr. Baker. adamant.pwn — contrib/ talk 22:01, 6 September 2020 (UTC)According to prosecutors' notes filed into evidence, Hennepin County Medical Examiner Andrew Baker told prosecutors that the level of meth in Floyd's system was low, but that the level of fentanyl was high. Had Floyd been found alone with no other contributing factors, Baker said he could conclude Floyd overdosed, according to the notes
I think there's useful information here. It's just a matter of putting it in the article in a proper way. The useful info is that a motion was filed with the court. Here's a possible addition to the article which starts a new subsection.
References
I tried adding it [10] but it was reverted with the suggestion that I discuss it here. Bob K31416 ( talk) 21:24, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
At the same time, prosecutors in the case against Chauvin and three other former Minneapolis police officers said they plan to seek stiff sentences if the men are convicted. They said in court documents that Floyd was vulnerable because he was handcuffed with his chest pressed against the ground and he was treated "with particular cruelty.""Despite Mr. Floyd's pleas that he could not breathe and was going to die, as well as the pleas of eyewitnesses to get off Mr. Floyd and help him, Defendant and his co-defendants continued to restrain Mr. Floyd," the prosecutors wrote.Koncorde ( talk) 01:31, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
Here's a version with a revised second sentence.
References
Bob K31416 ( talk) 01:23, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
"Defense attorney Eric J. Nelson filed the motion in Hennepin County, Minnesota, District Court on Friday, claiming prosecutors have failed to show probable cause for charging Derek Chauvin with second-degree unintentional murder, third-degree murder and second-degree manslaughter."by only referencing the drug use we appear to be missing out a good chunk of the arguments made about why it should be dimissed. Koncorde ( talk) 01:35, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
(fill in your favorite quote). O3000 ( talk) 01:51, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
So far there doesn't appear to be anything in the article from Chauvin or his lawyers about his defense. Bob K31416 ( talk) 22:02, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
O3000, Would you care to add the above item (in my 01:23, 31 August 2020 message) to the article yourself? Bob K31416 ( talk) 18:18, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
See
SO, Stayfree76, let's DISCUSS your actions here, on the talk page, which you should have done first instead of reverting my & ClueBot III's actions. Shearonink ( talk) 18:16, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
I've changed the timeout from 10 to 7 days. 5 was fine, but compromising on a week. With the amount of people monitoring this page, a stale conversation is unlikely to get consensus or has become to bloated and should reset. Making it too long encourages people to manually archive, and bad faith accusations of bias typically follow. People can IAR and undo individual archiving when warranted.— Bagumba ( talk) 12:10, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
I'm wondering if we need to use a quote here. This phraseology seems a bit NPOV. —valereee ( talk) 22:19, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
I don't believe the lead wording sufficiently describes the scope of the protests, "Floyd's death triggered subsequent protests against police brutality...' The word "subsequent" is redundant, and propose, "Floyd's death triggered national and international protests against police brutality..." as referenced in the article. Ward20 ( talk) 01:24, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
The widespread protests that were sparked after the death of George Floyd at the hands of Minneapolis police are getting support from others around the world.[13]— Bagumba ( talk) 12:17, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
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Autopsy reports actually told that George Floyd's death was caused by a fentanyl overdose. 71.161.222.246 ( talk) 02:29, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
The lead as it currently stands begins with the date of the incident -- I propose moving the date later in the sentence, instead beginning the article with Floyd's name. I also propose changing the phrasing at the end of the sentence from the indirect 'during an arrest' to 'while being arrested'. I personally prefer this wording as it is more direct and removes the small amount of ambiguity -- we shouldn't assume that the reader is aware that George Floyd is the person being arrested, and the first sentence in the article is the most important place to be specific, precise, and unambiguous. These are the changes:
1. On May 25, 2020, George Floyd, a 46-year-old African-American man, was killed in Minneapolis, Minnesota, on May 25, 2020, during an arrest for allegedly using a counterfeit bill.
2. On May 25, 2020, George Floyd, a 46-year-old African-American man, was killed in Minneapolis, Minnesota, on May 25, 2020, during an arrest while being arrested for allegedly using a counterfeit bill.
I'd appreciate any thoughts and opinions regarding these options. Thanks, Pais arepa 03:07, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
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These four sentences in the third paragraph of the "Arrest and death" section are written in present tense: "Lane taps his flashlight on the window, startling Floyd. He asks Floyd to show his hands, and taps again when he does not abide. Floyd apologizes as he opens the car door. Lane instructs him three more times to show his hands." They should be changed to past tense for consistency with the rest of the article: "Lane tapped his flashlight on the window, startling Floyd. He asked Floyd to show his hands, and tapped again when he did not abide. Floyd apologized as he opened the car door. Lane instructed him three more times to show his hands." 2601:985:301:BE06:BC10:489B:3E92:8F4F ( talk) 02:06, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
I already added the following text to George Floyd but I'm not entirely sure about putting it here.
On September 18, 2020, the Minneapolis City Council approved designating the section of Chicago Avenue between 37th and 39th Streets as George Perry Floyd Jr. Place, with a marker at the intersection with 38th Street where the incident took place. [1]— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 20:51, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
References
in the section "Chauvin kneels on Floyd's neck" it says the following:
i feel like having the article list all of the things a random "passerby [or witness?]" said makes the section much more complicated that it should needs to be. i can barely follow the events since the entire section is just listing off events as they happened on video (in very shorts sentences) instead of giving a more Wikipedia-like summary. with that being said, i think they should be removed or at a minimum moved to another section titles "on scene witness comments" or something.
StayFree76
talk
20:17, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
Per
MOS:QUOTE: While quotations are an indispensable part of Wikipedia, try not to overuse them. Using too many quotes is incompatible with an encyclopedic writing style and may be a copyright infringement. It is generally recommended that content be written in Wikipedia editors' own words.
I think sometimes editors are wary of being accused of a POV summary and resort to quoting verbatim.—
Bagumba (
talk)
02:43, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
Whats the plan on this? shall i propose a new paragraph here? StayFree76 talk 15:52, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
based on the convo above i decided to rework the first 2 sub sections, the third should follow (but im tired now). this is going to be long. one thing i noticed is that the current state bounces back between past tense, past continuous tense, and present tense. I tried to convert it all to simple past tense, but i might have missed some. please fix, edit, whatever you think since this is just a recommendation of what i think it should be something like. i am not hard set on anything in particular, and just want to make the article actually readable. in many cases i removed extra details from sentences that seemed WP:Too_much_detail. examples of this were listing per minute timestamps, number of police cars, restating officers names/ specific officer every time (one of them did it should be all that matters, imo), paraphrased what people said if it was relevant, random details eg. (across the street, next to the store, direction someone was looking).
request to change this: Killing of George Floyd#Initial_events to:
On the evening of May 25, 2020, at about 8:00 pm, Floyd purchased cigarettes at Cup Foods, a grocery store at the intersection of East 38th Street and Chicago Avenue in the Powderhorn Park neighborhood of Minneapolis. A store employee believed Floyd had paid with a counterfeit $20 bill.[11][15] Two employees left the store and approached the Floyd's vehicle.[11]:1:25[15]:1:33[47] The employees asked Floyd return the cigarettes, but he refused.[15]:1:43[2] Soon after, a store employee called the police to report that Floyd had passed "fake bills", was "awfully drunk", and "not in control of himself".[11]:1:33[15]:1:51[c] The interaction was filmed by the restaurant's security camera.[11]:0:49[15]:1:24[48][b]
A few minutes later, Kueng and Lane briefly entered Cup Foods before approaching Floyd's vehicle.[11]:1:41[15]:2:00 Lane tapped the window with his flashlight,[50][51] asking Floyd to show his hands. Floyd, not compliant, apologized as he opened the car door. Lane then drew his gun and ordered Floyd to show his hands.[50] Once Floyd complied, Lane holstered his weapon.[2][52] Following a brief struggle,[11]:2:10 Lane pulled Floyd from the SUV and handcuffed him.[15]:2:20 Floyd was sat down on the sidewalk [11]:2:22[15]:2:33 and was asked if he was "on something", to which he responded "No". The officers mentioned he was acting erratic, and inquired about the foam around his mouth, but he said had been "hooping"[d] earlier.[53][55][54] The officers initiated Floyd's arrest and walked him to their police car.[9] Once there, Floyd fell to the ground. He was picked up and placed against the car's door.[11]:2:42[15]:3:00 While they attempted to put him in the car he said he couldn't breathe and offered to lay on the ground instead.[9][56][57] Soon after, Chauvin and Thao arrived on the scene[11]:3:32[15]:3:27 with Chauvin assuming command,[8] asking if an arrest had been made.[53] After a struggle, according to The New York Times, Chauvin pulled Floyd across the backseat.[15]:3:56 Then, according to NPR, Floyd exited the vehicle, but it was unclear whether he was pulled or pushed himself out[60] before falling to the pavement.[2]
According to prosecutors, Floyd said he was not resisting and stated he was recovering from COVID-19, he was claustrophobic and had anxiety, and that he did not want to sit in the car.[8][9][15]:3:10[56] During and interview, Lane said he saw Floyd bleeding from the mouth and attributed it to him thrashing around in the car and hitting his face on the glass.[58]
request to change this: Killing of George Floyd#Chauvin_kneels_on_Floyd's_neck to:
While Floyd was on the ground, Chauvin knelt on his neck.[60] Floyd stopped moving a few minutes later, though he was still conscious.[11]:4:10 Multiple witnesses began to film the encounter and their videos were later circulated widely on the internet.[2][15]:4:06 Kueng applied pressure to Floyd's torso, Lane applied pressure to Floyd's legs, and Thao stood nearby.[11]:4:13[15]:4:11[2] While restrained, Floyd repeatedly said "I can't breathe", "Please", and "Mama";[2][11]:4:44[15]:4:28 Lane requested and ambulance for bleeding from the mouth.[55] Floyd continued to say that he could not breathe up to 16 times.[15]:5:46 Chauvin told Floyd to relax in response to him saying he was "about to die".[62] The ambulance request was escalated to emergency status.[11]:4:50[15]:4:42 Chauvin continued to kneel on Floyd's neck.[15]:5:15 The officers stated Floyd was talking so he is "fine". Observers argued with the officers restraint, stating that Floyd was not resisting and he was not "ok".[66][67] Soon after, Floyd appeared unconscious, confronted the officers asking for a pulse check.[11]:5:22[15]:6:53[2] Chauvin pulled out mace to keep bystanders away.[69][70] Floyd's wrist was checked for a pulse, but it was not found.[2] The officers did not provide Floyd with medical assistance.[15]:6:46
StayFree76 talk 21:13, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
are there no objections to this change then?
StayFree76
talk
16:18, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
discussion continuing Talk:Killing_of_George_Floyd#Random_Sentence_in_Section.
proposed change: [14] [15] (images of diffs)
@ Shearonink: i didn't mean that as an insult to your intelligence and if that's how you took it (or that's how i came off), i apologize. i must have misunderstood, but it just seemed off because the format is identical to wikis change management system. also, to be clear, i was not challenging your presence, but your strong opinions after so many opportunities to discuss were provided before hand (like 3 or 4 over 10 days).
@ Paisarepa: its the first part of this discussion. i didn't just throw changes out willy nilly. see: Talk:Killing_of_George_Floyd#Random_Sentence_in_Section. as for changing the tone, i already mentioned that was not my intention, but i also stated this:
"based on the convo above i decided to rework the first 2 sub sections, the third should follow (but im tired now). this is going to be long. one thing i noticed is that the current state bounces back between past tense, past continuous tense, and present tense. I tried to convert it all to simple past tense, but i might have missed some. please fix, edit, whatever you think since this is just a recommendation of what i think it should be something like. i am not hard set on anything in particular, and just want to make the article actually readable. in many cases i removed extra details from sentences that seemed WP:Too_much_detail. examples of this were listing per minute timestamps, number of police cars, restating officers names/ specific officer every time (one of them did it should be all that matters, imo), paraphrased what people said if it was relevant, random details eg. (across the street, next to the store, direction someone was looking)." - me 10 days ago
StayFree76 talk 16:59, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
Whats the plan on this? shall i propose a new paragraph here?, to which you replied with sure, do change x to y, etc. that is exactly what i did. if it is too much to handle there is not much else that i can do about it. the problem is a big problem that spans the entire section. based on the discussions its apparent that smaller changes will be better and for that i think enough consensus has been given for should be changed. because of that i will just edit the article directly per normal and we can follow the standard revert and discuss cycle if needed. i think everyone will find that the changes will be a breath of fresh air and make the article much more readable. i think GF especially, but everyone else also, deserve that. StayFree76 talk 16:48, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
The lead paragraph states that George Floyd said "I can't breathe" and "please" while he was pinned. However, George Floyd was pleading before he was on the road [1] [2]. This should be changed immediately. NPOV Enthusiast ( talk) 08:45, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
References
"Derek Chauvin, a white police officer, knelt on Floyd's neck for several minutes[a] while Floyd was handcuffed, lying face down, and repeatedly saying "I can't breathe" and "please", and calling for his mother." NPOV Enthusiast ( talk) 02:30, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
I made an example edit of this suggestion, take it or leave it. If taking it, maybe cut and paste the citations, too, I can't on this gizmo. Also removed "please" as an uninformative fragment (please what?), saved 26 bytes. InedibleHulk ( talk) 00:20, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
The medical examiner's final findings, issued June 1,[85] classified Floyd's death as a homicide caused by "a cardiopulmonary arrest while being restrained" by officers who had subjected Floyd to "neck compression".[86][87]
He found that the "evidence is consistent with mechanical asphyxia as the cause of Floyd's death", and that the death was a homicide.[94][95][92] He said Floyd died from "asphyxia due to compression of the neck", affecting "blood flow and oxygen going into the brain", and also from "compression of the back, which interferes with breathing".[83]Koncorde ( talk) 02:35, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
You have pointed at exactly no facts, but a whole lot of your own personal research and feels. Stop pushing for false balance when the significance of his death has nothing to do with whether the RS are being fair on the cops. The manner in which he died, and not your personal opinion on his superhuman like efforts to not die, is the crux of the article. Two autopsies say he was killed. Not suicide, not death by cop, not his health. He died, while begging not to be killed, as police officers pinned him to the ground - and the subsequent fallout of his death - is what the article and lede is about. Not plausible deniability or trying to shift the balance to blame the man who died, or mitigate his suffering by inferring that by somehow complaining about his breathing prior to being "subdued" and "restrained" makes things better or the lede more relevant. Koncorde ( talk) 22:47, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
Positional asphyxia is a death that occurs when a subject's body position interferes with breathing. This training bulletin informs Chicago Police Department members of potentially dangerous restraint positions that must be avoided during custodial arrest and transportation. Positional asphyxia can occur when a subject's chest is restricted from expanding properly or the position of the subject's head obstructs the airway. Officers should never: restrain a subject's hands and legs together; leave a subject in control restraints lying on his back or stomach; put weight on the subject's back for a prolonged period; or keep a subject waiting for transportation in a restrained position without proper monitoring. The risk of positional asphyxia increases in the presence of alcohol intoxication, drugs, physical ailments, delirium, or respiratory diseases. When feasible, officers should handcuff an arrestee with both hands behind his back, palms outward. Although most officers have no reason to expect death to result from restraining a subject, it can happen. The bulletin claims that exercising caution and common sense can lessen the potential for in-custody deaths from positional asphyxia.
The medical examiner's report said, "Cause of death: Cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression." [26] What does that mean? (Not an argument here, just trying to see what the understanding of this is.) Bob K31416 ( talk) 05:20, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
in the section "Memorials, protests, and reactions", most if not all days are just in "Month Day" format. shouldn't these all be referenced in a way explicitly showing 2020 so that info doesn't get lost over time? tbh, i don't know the exact formatting that it should be and think listing the year every time seems a bit excessive, but maybe the first date in each paragraph could list the year 2020? StayFree76 talk 17:20, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
In relation to the above toxicology report, as well as his enlarged lungs and massive fentynal overdose, the cause of death will always be in some doubt. We do not know if the knee was the cause, or the fentynal/water on the lungs. So we do not know if this was a "killing" or a "death." SInce the word "Death" covers both possibilities, the title of the article, as well as wording within it, should be changed to "The Death of George Floyd." Said with sympathy for all involved in this tragedy.```` — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.25.161.114 ( talk) 16:25, 2 October 2020 (UTC)
@ NorthBySouthBaranof: Hi NorthBySouthBaranof, I don't want to start some edit war. All I wanted to do was place information regarding the toxicological status of Mr. Floyd in the Lead paragraph of this article. I am going to place some Q&A below to prevent back and forth.
"Why in the lead paragraph?": Because the fact that Mr. Floyd was on a fatal dose of fentanyl at the time of his killing has serious implications for the rest of the article, it is important that the reader knows this information before continuing to the rest of the article.
"Why do I have to specify fatal?": Because even though any amount of narcotics in one's system may contribute to death, having a fatal dose guarantees the death of a user. The distinction between fatal dosage and any dosage is extremely important for any reader trying to educate themselves on this event.
"Why do I want this fact in the article at all?": Because the fact that he was on a Fatal dosage of fentanyl at the time of his death is an extremely important factor that many people are not educated about, placing it in this article will insure that more people are properly educated on the event.
I also was using a Secondary source (NPR), as well as a reputable primary source (An official Medical examiner's report). However, it seemed that you reverted my edit almost instantly, if it was it seemed as if it was an edit war, it was not, a user by the name of "Bagumba" was providing advice on what to add next.
Thanks, JazzClam ( talk) 19:20, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
ng/mL, with a mean of 9.96". This means that the average fatal dosage is around 10 ng/ml, and with Mr. Floyd having a dosage of 11 ng/ml, he is within the fatality range. Upon your response I will add the information to the article with the average fatal dosage.
While information must be verifiable to be included in an article, all verifiable information need not be included in an article. Consensus may determine that certain information does not improve an article ...If something someone proposes makes sense, they're expected to gain supporters other than just themself. Regards.— Bagumba ( talk) 02:05, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
I support JazzClam's proposal. That information is highly pertinent to understanding the events of that day. Crescent77 ( talk) 05:07, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
@ NorthBySouthBaranof:@ Crescent77:@ Lester Mobley:@ Bagumba:@ Bob K31416: Hi all, I have pinged everyone who has taken part in this conversation to get your opinion on what my plan is. Below i have attached the full toxicological report on Mr Floyd, I am going to place it in a subsection of the "autopsies" section, labeled "Toxicological Report" meaning it will be section 3.2.1, please, feel free to add criticism. Now, some may add, that "Why, at this point, do I care about adding this information in, given that it will be relegated to a subsection of a section?" Because this Tox report is a significant part of the Hennepin County autopsy, and is a piece of information that many people are not educated on. I believe that the goal of wikipedia is to present the whole truth, and while this article not including this tox report is, technically, truthful, it is not presenting the full truth, that is undeniable.
Compound | Result | Units | Description |
---|---|---|---|
Caffeine | Positive | mcg/mL | A common stimulant of the methylxanthine class [1] |
Cotinine | Positive | ng/mL | An Alkaloid of Tobacco and the predominant metabolite of Nicotine [2] |
4-ANPP | 0.65 | ng/mL | A direct precursor to Fentanyl [3] |
11-Hydroxy Delta-9 THC | 1.2 | ng/mL | The main active metabolite of THC, which is formed after the consumption of Cannabis [4] |
Delta-9 Carboxy THC | 42 | ng/mL | The main secondary metabolite of THC, which is formed after the consumption of Cannabis [5] |
Delta-9 THC | 2.9 | ng/mL | The primary psychoactive component of Cannabis [6] |
Methamphetamine | 19 | ng/mL | A potent Central Nervous System (CNS) stimulant primarily used as an illicit recreational drug [7] |
Fentanyl | 11 | ng/mL | An opioid used as a pain medication, as well as an illicit recreational drug. [8] [9] |
Norfentanyl | 5.6 | ng/mL | The immediate precursor chemical used for the illicit manufacture of Fentanyl, often left behind as the result of unbalanced or impure chemical reactions. [10] |
Morphine | 86 | ng/mL | A pain medication of the opiate family that is naturally found in many plants and animals, including humans. [11] |
References
— Preceding unsigned comment added by JazzClam ( talk • contribs) 13:28, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
You might think that it is a great place to set the record straight and right great wrongs, but that's not the case ... So, if you want to ... Vindicate a convicted murderer you believe to be innocent ... on Wikipedia, you'll have to wait until it's been reported in mainstream media or published in books from reputable publishing houses. Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought or original research. Wikipedia doesn't lead; we follow. Let reliable sources make the novel connections and statements.— Bagumba ( talk) 15:44, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
Can I have the quote for the NYT that supports "might have increased the likelihood of death"? Slatersteven ( talk) 11:50, 25 October 2020 (UTC)