Multiplicity (psychology) was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 30 September 2023 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Multiplicity (subculture). The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
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I was reading the hatnote and it said This article is about the online subculture. For the psychological and philosophical concept . However I don't think that's accurate as there is already a philosophical article for multiplicity it should just be psychology Multiplicity (philosophy) Kuia34 ( talk) 01:10, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
@ Kate the mochii I saw your section about Iatrogenic effects and after reading the teenvogue article ( https://www.teenvogue.com/story/dissociative-identity-disorder-on-tiktok ) I think that section is better suited to Dissociative identity disorder . The teen vogue article is discussing the online DID community and not necessarily the multiplicity subculture.(as multiplicity is not mentioned once) and as this paper shows https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2468749921000570 there is a distinction between the online plurality/multiplicity subculture and regular DID online groups. Kuia34 ( talk) 11:50, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
"The multiplicity community insists on being seen as healthy—even normal. This is our reality, they argue. Why are you imposing your reality onto us? Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID)—and its controversial precursor, Multiple Personality Disorder—are terms roundly rejected by the community, and most of them don't feel that they belong in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM) at all. It's not that they don't believe people can suffer from DID (or, more broadly, Dissociative Disorder Not Otherwise Specified [DDNOS]). They just don't accept that they suffer from it. To them, all those with DID/DDNOS are multiple, but not all multiples are DID/DDNOS. Contrary to what a DID/DDNOS diagnosis implies, multiples want everyone in their system to be seen as people. Not fragments, alters, or personalities, but distinct individuals who happen to be inhabiting the same physical body."
you continuously just ignore sources and put whatever you want in the article.
Kuia34 (
talk)
22:21, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
We see the idea of autonomous-but-bodiless consciousness in Tibetan Buddhists, who allegedly invented tulpamancy, where one meditates and conjures up imaginary beings that eventually become sentient. Spirit possession is ritualized in religions from Pentecostal Christianity to Haitian Vodou. Even Descartes's famous dictum, "I think, therefore I am" can be read in a multiplicity-hued light—if multiple beings inside one body are all thinking, don't they all "exist"? Point is, multiplicity wasn't born on 1990s internet forums, or dreamed up by lonely gamers longing for imaginary friends. Aspects of it, at least, have been around for centuries.
Kuia34 ( talk) 22:43, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
On to the second claim neither teenvogue nor the research paper titled "Multiplicity: An Explorative Interview Study on Personal Experiences of People with Multiple Selves" talk about any type of discourse
For this reason, the existence of online forums for multiplicity is not without any risk. On the one hand, the online community may prevent members seeking professional help, and on the other hand, individuals with disturbed but not dissociated identity problems also may internalize the group's beliefs and rules, further increasing the severity of their fragmentedness.
@ Seteleechete: I named it that way because the word means:
I think that claiming multiplicity without a disorder is only part of the above and what is mentioned in the section (it's also mentioned that some people having the disorder heal slower, for example). The section reads (in order):
If you read all of them, they are pretty much all examples of "harmful medical outcomes" caused by the "medical resource" (the online support community), so iatrogenesis is a good synonym to describe this.
Also I heard Wikipedians say that having a section called "controversy" sections are bad for the article. You might ask question: to who is this even a controversy? Kate the mochii ( talk) 01:46, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
The concept of multiplicity began with 19th century mesmerist who were bewildered by the fact that when they induced magnetic sleep in a person a new life emerged which the subject was unaware existed with some even claiming that this new personality could live a continuous life of its own. This caused the creation of the concept of dipsychism the idea that the human mind was duality.
"The diversity of the multiplicity experience also tells us that plurality can sometimes be enacted through conscious effort rather than unconsciously as a result of trauma (in the plural community, "non-traumagenic" plurality is sometimes described as "endogenic") and need not be associated with functional impairment or distress so that it shouldn't be equated with a mental disorder the way it is with DID. On the contrary, many find their "functional multiplicity" not only helpful in terms of mental health but wholly satisfying, as if they've finally found a self-concept that meshes with their internal experience. In that sense, multiplicity can be thought of as similar to gender identity—with overlap between multiplicity and gender dysphoria14—representing nothing short of a revolt against the limiting confines of how society defines identity. So it is that new paradigms of neurodiversity, Mad Studies, and self-advocacy activism are trying to tear down the conservative walls of traditional psychiatry and psychology."
You are bludgeoning this conversation to the point where I am not really sure what your issue is anymore. You claim that DID does not belong in a multiplicity article, yet you also state that DID is a subset of multiplicity. The article is explicitly about "online communities of people that say they have multiple personality". It is impossible to know who has and hasn't DID. Sources describe friction within due to feeling like they need to have a diagnosis, source 1 studies an online community and describes the word multiplicity emerging as an umbrella term to fulfill this issue. There is a sentence already on the page differentiating the two:
Online multiplicity communities may embrace all above types of expressions under the multiplicity label, or instead only cater to those experiencing dissociative disorders
, which is sourced in P.T. I checked. Speaking of that, I have corrected the inline citations you pointed out, since indeed, they did not correspond to the sentence. Kate the mochii ( talk) 16:49, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
I'm not claiming that DID doesn't belong in the article I'm saying that stuff related to DID that isn't in reference to the subculture isn't supposed to be here. That's the whole point of a subculture as defined by the oxford english dictionary
Alter isn't shared jargon though
— https://multiplicity.fandom.com/wiki/Alter At the very least, it has a page on multiplicity wiki (closed wiki, about the multiplicity subculture). I am sure pretty much any multiplicity resource you can look up defines alter.Alter is usually a term used by traumagenic systems, such as those with DID, OSDD-1, UDD/USDD, and DDNOS. Non-traumagenic systems may use it, but its more commonly used in these areas.
that's definitely not one of the subcultural traits
Kate the mochii ( talk) 22:29, 3 July 2023 (UTC)Dick Hebdige writes that members of a subculture often signal their membership through a distinctive and symbolic use of style, which includes fashions, mannerisms, and argot.
2. So what should be the defining trait for this subculture well let's look at the sources that talk about multiplicity that are in this article so far and how they distinguish it.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/psych-unseen/202302/enacted-identities-multiplicity-plurality-and-tulpamancy :
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5468408/
With the increasing popularity and spread of the Internet, various forms of self-organized support groups have emerged. Multiplicity is a relatively new concept that encompasses people who consider themselves multiple by nature; that is, they have a group of individual selves who share the same body. It can be concluded that multiplicity is a label and a self-organized support group for people with severe identity disturbances, in some cases with symptoms of dissociative disorders. Further research is needed to assess clinically the underlying motivations, functionality and long-term changes in individuals who consider themselves multiple.// Most systems do not report amnesic barriers or recall traumatic events, and they insist that their multiplicity is something they were born with. Many of them call this healthy or a natural state of identity.// People who identify themselves as “multiple” have a system of multiple or alternative, selves, that share the same physical body. This is the first study to explore the phenomenon of multiplicity by assessing the experiences of people who identify themselves as “multiple.”
https://www.lycoming.edu/schemata/pdfs/Sullivan.pdf (also on a side not this is a student essay not a research paper https://www.lycoming.edu/schemata/psychology.aspx I'm not really sure if student essays are allowed as sources would someone look into that) :
With the popularization of the Internet within the last twenty years, and its increasing use as a forum for nameless individuals to voice thoughts they would otherwise keep private, many groups have risen out of anonymity. Utilizing various blogging platforms and social media, these fringe groups are attempting to normalize their behavior by commiserating with similar individuals. One such group calls themselves “multiple systems” or “plural people.”1 According to Astraea’s Web (2007), an online collection of information regarding this mental state, multiplicity is defined as “Two or more independent people who use the same body; the experience of sharing the body with others.” Essentially, in a similar way that the majority of people experience a single consciousness in their single body, a multiple system experiences at least one other additional, complete, and independent consciousness who may or may not share control of the physical body. It differs from the traditional definition of Dissociative Identity Disorder in that the individual insists they are consciously aware of the world while their other identities are present, or “fronting” (DSM-IV, 2006; Astraea’s, 2007) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9120276/In terms of differentiating between the terms DID and multiplicity, DID is associated with high levels of distress and reduced functioning within most diagnostic conceptualisations (American Psychiatric Association (APA), 2013). However, many people with multiplicity function well in terms of consciousness, memory, identity and perception of the environment (Ribáry et al., 2017), and appreciate the value of their multiple selves as a coping response to adversity and relational traumas (e.g. Parry et al., 2018a, b). The absence of distress experienced by systems identifying as multiple may suggest that DID and multiplicity vary in experience, and the dominance of DID in research highlights a fundamental limitation in the understanding of multiplicity (Okano, In Press; Trifu, 2019). On the other hand, an assumption of a lack of distress and impairment in functioning could point to a further lack of understanding in the experience of multiplicity (Hacohen et al., 2019; Sagan, 2019), particularly in relation to distress associated with stigma. Overall, the paucity of research surrounding multiplicity with people with lived experience, especially during adolescence and emerging adulthood, could alienate the multiplicity community, leading to important gaps in the scientific and humanitarian understanding of how systems of people can coexist together.
https://www.vice.com/en/article/vdxgw9/when-multiple-personalities-are-not-a-disorder-400What she found were words like system and multiple and fronting—the vocabulary of the multiplicity community, a group that formed during the mailing lists of the 1980s. These multiples, as they call themselves, see themselves as healthy and empowered rather than disordered and "inherently pathological," as Falah says. And they desperately want the rest of the world to see them that way, too. Their vocabulary is extensive, but the most basic concepts are these: A "multiplicity system" refers to the group within the body itself (i.e., "I'm part of a multiplicity system"). The system might consist of two people, or it might consist of 200. The "outer world" is this physical plane that we're all stumbling around in, while "inner worlds" are the subjective realms where their system members spend time when they're not "fronting," or running the body in the outer world. When I speak to Falah, she is fronting, not Lark. The multiplicity community insists on being seen as healthy—even normal. This is our reality, they argue. Why are you imposing your reality onto us?
Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID)—and its controversial precursor, Multiple Personality Disorder—are terms roundly rejected by the community, and most of them don't feel that they belong in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM) at all. It's not that they don't believe people can suffer from DID (or, more broadly, Dissociative Disorder Not Otherwise Specified [DDNOS]). They just don't accept that they suffer from it. To them, all those with DID/DDNOS are multiple, but not all multiples are DID/DDNOS. Contrary to what a DID/DDNOS diagnosis implies, multiples want everyone in their system to be seen as people. Not fragments, alters, or personalities, but distinct individuals who happen to be inhabiting the same physical body.
https://aeon.co/ideas/what-we-can-learn-about-respect-and-identity-from-plurals A plural is a human being who says things like: ‘I’m one of many people inside my head.’ Although they are quite rare (it’s impossible to say how rare), plurals are increasingly visible on social media and in the occasional popular media article. At present, there is a
handbook online about how to respond to a co-worker’s ‘coming out’ (as the document puts it) as plural. You might think you’ve heard of plurals if you’ve heard of dissociative identity disorder (DID), because, like plurals, people with DID experience themselves as being psychologically multiple. But many plurals don’t meet the diagnostic criteria for DID. Often, this is because they don’t find their plurality per se to be distressing or
impairing. In other cases, it’s because they don’t meet the amnesia criterion for DID, since the multiple beings that plurals experience as being inside them can share experiences or communicate to each other about their experiences. Conversely, most people with DID aren’t plurals. Plurals don’t just feel as though they are psychologically multiple – they believe that they are. And they take each of these psychological beings, inhabiting one shared body, to be a full person: let’s call each of them a personp, where the little ‘p’ stands for ‘part of one human being’. As one personp puts it: ‘You presume that there’s a “real person” underneath all of us who’s conjuring up “imaginary friends”. No, we’re just people, thanks.’
--// As you can see the way the multiplicity is defined there appears to be clear consistent way it distinguishes itself from other experinces that being:
• Lack of impairment
• The belief that each personaity is it's own indivual person
• The belief that having multiple personalities isn't a disorder and can be healthy even normal
talk page consensus has shown that the Multiplicity(psychology) article was not medical
However, unlike self-help groups, these individuals did not gather in order to recover.Kate the mochii ( talk) 16:06, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
At present, there is a handbook online about how to respond to a co-worker’s ‘coming out’ (as the document puts it) as plural
Not to mention I didn't say stuff about DID wasn't allowed just that stuff about the DID community unreleated to the subculture wasn't allowed
voorts ( talk · contribs) wants to offer a third opinion. To assist with the process, editors are requested to summarize the dispute in a short sentence below.
Arguments why medicalized multiplicity communities (eg. DID TikTok) fit the scope of this article.
Arguments why this is a bad idea for the encyclopedia:
Alternative theoretical formulations from within the scientific community are not pseudoscience, but part of the scientific process. They should not be classified as pseudoscience but should still be put into context with respect to the mainstream perspective.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/psych-unseen/202302/enacted-identities-multiplicity-plurality-and-tulpamancy *Multiplicity, plurality, and tulpamancy bring a newfound awareness to the fact that many people experience a non-unitary self.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5468408/ With the increasing popularity and spread of the Internet, various forms of self-organized support groups have emerged. Multiplicity is a relatively new concept that encompasses people who consider themselves multiple by nature; that is, they have a group of individual selves who share the same body. It can be concluded that multiplicity is a label and a self-organized support group for people with severe identity disturbances, in some cases with symptoms of dissociative disorders. Further research is needed to assess clinically the underlying motivations, functionality and long-term changes in individuals who consider themselves multiple.// Most systems do not report amnesic barriers or recall traumatic events, and they insist that their multiplicity is something they were born with. Many of them call this healthy or a natural state of identity.// People who identify themselves as “multiple” have a system of multiple or alternative, selves, that share the same physical body. This is the first study to explore the phenomenon of multiplicity by assessing the experiences of people who identify themselves as “multiple.” https://www.lycoming.edu/schemata/pdfs/Sullivan.pdf :
With the popularization of the Internet within the last twenty years, and its increasing use as a forum for nameless individuals to voice thoughts they would otherwise keep private, many groups have risen out of anonymity. Utilizing various blogging platforms and social media, these fringe groups are attempting to normalize their behavior by commiserating with similar individuals. One such group calls themselves “multiple systems” or “plural people.”1 According to Astraea’s Web (2007), an online collection of information regarding this mental state, multiplicity is defined as “Two or more independent people who use the same body; the experience of sharing the body with others.” Essentially, in a similar way that the majority of people experience a single consciousness in their single body, a multiple system experiences at least one other additional, complete, and independent consciousness who may or may not share control of the physical body. It differs from the traditional definition of Dissociative Identity Disorder in that the individual insists they are consciously aware of the world while their other identities are present, or “fronting” (DSM-IV, 2006; Astraea’s, 2007)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9120276/ : In terms of differentiating between the terms DID and multiplicity, DID is associated with high levels of distress and reduced functioning within most diagnostic conceptualisations (American Psychiatric Association (APA), 2013). However, many people with multiplicity function well in terms of consciousness, memory, identity and perception of the environment (Ribáry et al., 2017), and appreciate the value of their multiple selves as a coping response to adversity and relational traumas (e.g. Parry et al., 2018a, b). The absence of distress experienced by systems identifying as multiple may suggest that DID and multiplicity vary in experience, and the dominance of DID in research highlights a fundamental limitation in the understanding of multiplicity (Okano, In Press; Trifu, 2019). On the other hand, an assumption of a lack of distress and impairment in functioning could point to a further lack of understanding in the experience of multiplicity (Hacohen et al., 2019; Sagan, 2019), particularly in relation to distress associated with stigma. Overall, the paucity of research surrounding multiplicity with people with lived experience, especially during adolescence and emerging adulthood, could alienate the multiplicity community, leading to important gaps in the scientific and humanitarian understanding of how systems of people can coexist together.
https://www.vice.com/en/article/vdxgw9/when-multiple-personalities-are-not-a-disorder-400
What she found were words like system and multiple and fronting—the vocabulary of the multiplicity community, a group that formed during the mailing lists of the 1980s. These multiples, as they call themselves, see themselves as healthy and empowered rather than disordered and "inherently pathological," as Falah says. And they desperately want the rest of the world to see them that way, too. Their vocabulary is extensive, but the most basic concepts are these: A "multiplicity system" refers to the group within the body itself (i.e., "I'm part of a multiplicity system"). The system might consist of two people, or it might consist of 200. The "outer world" is this physical plane that we're all stumbling around in, while "inner worlds" are the subjective realms where their system members spend time when they're not "fronting," or running the body in the outer world. When I speak to Falah, she is fronting, not Lark. The multiplicity community insists on being seen as healthy—even normal. This is our reality, they argue. Why are you imposing your reality onto us? Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID)—and its controversial precursor, Multiple Personality Disorder—are terms roundly rejected by the community, and most of them don't feel that they belong in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM) at all. It's not that they don't believe people can suffer from DID (or, more broadly, Dissociative Disorder Not Otherwise Specified [DDNOS]). They just don't accept that they suffer from it. To them, all those with DID/DDNOS are multiple, but not all multiples are DID/DDNOS. Contrary to what a DID/DDNOS diagnosis implies, multiples want everyone in their system to be seen as people. Not fragments, alters, or personalities, but distinct individuals who happen to be inhabiting the same physical body.
https://aeon.co/ideas/what-we-can-learn-about-respect-and-identity-from-plurals
A plural is a human being who says things like: ‘I’m one of many people inside my head.’ Although they are quite rare (it’s impossible to say how rare), plurals are increasingly visible on social media and in the occasional popular media article. At present, there is a handbook online about how to respond to a co-worker’s ‘coming out’ (as the document puts it) as plural. You might think you’ve heard of plurals if you’ve heard of dissociative identity disorder (DID), because, like plurals, people with DID experience themselves as being psychologically multiple. But many plurals don’t meet the diagnostic criteria for DID. Often, this is because they don’t find their plurality per se to be distressing or impairing. In other cases, it’s because they don’t meet the amnesia criterion for DID, since the multiple beings that plurals experience as being inside them can share experiences or communicate to each other about their experiences. Conversely, most people with DID aren’t plurals. Plurals don’t just feel as though they are psychologically multiple – they believe that they are. And they take each of these psychological beings, inhabiting one shared body, to be a full person: let’s call each of them a personp, where the little ‘p’ stands for ‘part of one human being’. As one personp puts it: ‘You presume that there’s a “real person” underneath all of us who’s conjuring up “imaginary friends”. No, we’re just people, thanks.’ --- Each of these sources makes a clear distinction between multiplicty and general D.I.D
"The presence of two or more distinct personality states does not always indicate the presence of a mental disorder. In certain circumstances (for example, as experienced by ‘mediums’ or other culturally accepted spiritual practitioners) the presence of multiple personality states is not experienced as aversive and is not associated with impairment in functioning. A diagnosis of Dissociative Identity Disorder should not be assigned in these cases." -- https://icd.who.int/browse11/l-m/en#/http://id.who.int/icd/entity/1829103493
While there is no consensus on Vice and reliability, I am a tad worried about leaning on the primary source nature of it. It's not that we should remove it, I don't think anyway, but we should consider finding something else if possible. Maxx-♥ talk and coffee ☕ 12:28, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
I'll get straight to the point here: in the technical language of the behavioural sciences, the words "iatrogenesis" and "iatrogenic" refer specifically to pathologies that are caused or worsened by medical and/or psychological therapies. [1]
The correct term for the phenomenon described in the section erroneously headed "links to iatrogenesis" (an ungrammatical construction, incidentally) is Social contagion, and this is the term used in the two relevant sources cited in that section. [2] [3]
This is a serious error, because the difference in meaning between iatrogenesis and self-diagnoses is highly significant. That difference is particularly salient when discussing the diagnosis of Dissociative identity disorder, because many specific cases of alleged MPD/DID have attracted criticism on the grounds that practitioners did, by reinforcing patients' beliefs, produce a wave of iatrogenic psychopathology. (For a particularly extreme example of such a case, see Michelle Remembers).
If nobody else steps in, I will simply rewrite the section heading. If, on the other hand, other editors would like to further discuss how best to deal with this issue, I'm happy to wait for others' input. Foxmilder ( talk) 10:09, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
This: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/cpp.2910?fbclid=PAAaYA2EcZAxCD7cDTUWhV93l1pCsh9ovJMddm5oZ8_V1-PQ7pjum3K4AxhEo is a recent study done on the multiplicity spectrum that I think would be useful to review and use as a source for new or existing information on this page.
I don't have the time to fully review it myself though, so I wanted to submit it here for others to look over. MarbleTheMoth ( talk) 00:28, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
I'm curious because this article was linked on another article that seemed to view DID and multiplicity as negative, claiming that TikTokers who claim to have it are being facetious. The tone of this article seems to be positive, but as far as I can tell the academic research about it seems to be inconclusive? Noah 💬 03:52, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
Multiplicity (psychology) was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 30 September 2023 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Multiplicity (subculture). The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Multiplicity (subculture) article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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Material from Multiplicity (psychology) was split to Multiplicity (subculture) on 00:10, 30 June 2023 from this version. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted so long as the latter page exists. Please leave this template in place to link the article histories and preserve this attribution. The former page's talk page can be accessed at Talk:Multiplicity (psychology). |
The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
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The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future:
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I was reading the hatnote and it said This article is about the online subculture. For the psychological and philosophical concept . However I don't think that's accurate as there is already a philosophical article for multiplicity it should just be psychology Multiplicity (philosophy) Kuia34 ( talk) 01:10, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
@ Kate the mochii I saw your section about Iatrogenic effects and after reading the teenvogue article ( https://www.teenvogue.com/story/dissociative-identity-disorder-on-tiktok ) I think that section is better suited to Dissociative identity disorder . The teen vogue article is discussing the online DID community and not necessarily the multiplicity subculture.(as multiplicity is not mentioned once) and as this paper shows https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2468749921000570 there is a distinction between the online plurality/multiplicity subculture and regular DID online groups. Kuia34 ( talk) 11:50, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
"The multiplicity community insists on being seen as healthy—even normal. This is our reality, they argue. Why are you imposing your reality onto us? Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID)—and its controversial precursor, Multiple Personality Disorder—are terms roundly rejected by the community, and most of them don't feel that they belong in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM) at all. It's not that they don't believe people can suffer from DID (or, more broadly, Dissociative Disorder Not Otherwise Specified [DDNOS]). They just don't accept that they suffer from it. To them, all those with DID/DDNOS are multiple, but not all multiples are DID/DDNOS. Contrary to what a DID/DDNOS diagnosis implies, multiples want everyone in their system to be seen as people. Not fragments, alters, or personalities, but distinct individuals who happen to be inhabiting the same physical body."
you continuously just ignore sources and put whatever you want in the article.
Kuia34 (
talk)
22:21, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
We see the idea of autonomous-but-bodiless consciousness in Tibetan Buddhists, who allegedly invented tulpamancy, where one meditates and conjures up imaginary beings that eventually become sentient. Spirit possession is ritualized in religions from Pentecostal Christianity to Haitian Vodou. Even Descartes's famous dictum, "I think, therefore I am" can be read in a multiplicity-hued light—if multiple beings inside one body are all thinking, don't they all "exist"? Point is, multiplicity wasn't born on 1990s internet forums, or dreamed up by lonely gamers longing for imaginary friends. Aspects of it, at least, have been around for centuries.
Kuia34 ( talk) 22:43, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
On to the second claim neither teenvogue nor the research paper titled "Multiplicity: An Explorative Interview Study on Personal Experiences of People with Multiple Selves" talk about any type of discourse
For this reason, the existence of online forums for multiplicity is not without any risk. On the one hand, the online community may prevent members seeking professional help, and on the other hand, individuals with disturbed but not dissociated identity problems also may internalize the group's beliefs and rules, further increasing the severity of their fragmentedness.
@ Seteleechete: I named it that way because the word means:
I think that claiming multiplicity without a disorder is only part of the above and what is mentioned in the section (it's also mentioned that some people having the disorder heal slower, for example). The section reads (in order):
If you read all of them, they are pretty much all examples of "harmful medical outcomes" caused by the "medical resource" (the online support community), so iatrogenesis is a good synonym to describe this.
Also I heard Wikipedians say that having a section called "controversy" sections are bad for the article. You might ask question: to who is this even a controversy? Kate the mochii ( talk) 01:46, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
The concept of multiplicity began with 19th century mesmerist who were bewildered by the fact that when they induced magnetic sleep in a person a new life emerged which the subject was unaware existed with some even claiming that this new personality could live a continuous life of its own. This caused the creation of the concept of dipsychism the idea that the human mind was duality.
"The diversity of the multiplicity experience also tells us that plurality can sometimes be enacted through conscious effort rather than unconsciously as a result of trauma (in the plural community, "non-traumagenic" plurality is sometimes described as "endogenic") and need not be associated with functional impairment or distress so that it shouldn't be equated with a mental disorder the way it is with DID. On the contrary, many find their "functional multiplicity" not only helpful in terms of mental health but wholly satisfying, as if they've finally found a self-concept that meshes with their internal experience. In that sense, multiplicity can be thought of as similar to gender identity—with overlap between multiplicity and gender dysphoria14—representing nothing short of a revolt against the limiting confines of how society defines identity. So it is that new paradigms of neurodiversity, Mad Studies, and self-advocacy activism are trying to tear down the conservative walls of traditional psychiatry and psychology."
You are bludgeoning this conversation to the point where I am not really sure what your issue is anymore. You claim that DID does not belong in a multiplicity article, yet you also state that DID is a subset of multiplicity. The article is explicitly about "online communities of people that say they have multiple personality". It is impossible to know who has and hasn't DID. Sources describe friction within due to feeling like they need to have a diagnosis, source 1 studies an online community and describes the word multiplicity emerging as an umbrella term to fulfill this issue. There is a sentence already on the page differentiating the two:
Online multiplicity communities may embrace all above types of expressions under the multiplicity label, or instead only cater to those experiencing dissociative disorders
, which is sourced in P.T. I checked. Speaking of that, I have corrected the inline citations you pointed out, since indeed, they did not correspond to the sentence. Kate the mochii ( talk) 16:49, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
I'm not claiming that DID doesn't belong in the article I'm saying that stuff related to DID that isn't in reference to the subculture isn't supposed to be here. That's the whole point of a subculture as defined by the oxford english dictionary
Alter isn't shared jargon though
— https://multiplicity.fandom.com/wiki/Alter At the very least, it has a page on multiplicity wiki (closed wiki, about the multiplicity subculture). I am sure pretty much any multiplicity resource you can look up defines alter.Alter is usually a term used by traumagenic systems, such as those with DID, OSDD-1, UDD/USDD, and DDNOS. Non-traumagenic systems may use it, but its more commonly used in these areas.
that's definitely not one of the subcultural traits
Kate the mochii ( talk) 22:29, 3 July 2023 (UTC)Dick Hebdige writes that members of a subculture often signal their membership through a distinctive and symbolic use of style, which includes fashions, mannerisms, and argot.
2. So what should be the defining trait for this subculture well let's look at the sources that talk about multiplicity that are in this article so far and how they distinguish it.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/psych-unseen/202302/enacted-identities-multiplicity-plurality-and-tulpamancy :
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5468408/
With the increasing popularity and spread of the Internet, various forms of self-organized support groups have emerged. Multiplicity is a relatively new concept that encompasses people who consider themselves multiple by nature; that is, they have a group of individual selves who share the same body. It can be concluded that multiplicity is a label and a self-organized support group for people with severe identity disturbances, in some cases with symptoms of dissociative disorders. Further research is needed to assess clinically the underlying motivations, functionality and long-term changes in individuals who consider themselves multiple.// Most systems do not report amnesic barriers or recall traumatic events, and they insist that their multiplicity is something they were born with. Many of them call this healthy or a natural state of identity.// People who identify themselves as “multiple” have a system of multiple or alternative, selves, that share the same physical body. This is the first study to explore the phenomenon of multiplicity by assessing the experiences of people who identify themselves as “multiple.”
https://www.lycoming.edu/schemata/pdfs/Sullivan.pdf (also on a side not this is a student essay not a research paper https://www.lycoming.edu/schemata/psychology.aspx I'm not really sure if student essays are allowed as sources would someone look into that) :
With the popularization of the Internet within the last twenty years, and its increasing use as a forum for nameless individuals to voice thoughts they would otherwise keep private, many groups have risen out of anonymity. Utilizing various blogging platforms and social media, these fringe groups are attempting to normalize their behavior by commiserating with similar individuals. One such group calls themselves “multiple systems” or “plural people.”1 According to Astraea’s Web (2007), an online collection of information regarding this mental state, multiplicity is defined as “Two or more independent people who use the same body; the experience of sharing the body with others.” Essentially, in a similar way that the majority of people experience a single consciousness in their single body, a multiple system experiences at least one other additional, complete, and independent consciousness who may or may not share control of the physical body. It differs from the traditional definition of Dissociative Identity Disorder in that the individual insists they are consciously aware of the world while their other identities are present, or “fronting” (DSM-IV, 2006; Astraea’s, 2007) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9120276/In terms of differentiating between the terms DID and multiplicity, DID is associated with high levels of distress and reduced functioning within most diagnostic conceptualisations (American Psychiatric Association (APA), 2013). However, many people with multiplicity function well in terms of consciousness, memory, identity and perception of the environment (Ribáry et al., 2017), and appreciate the value of their multiple selves as a coping response to adversity and relational traumas (e.g. Parry et al., 2018a, b). The absence of distress experienced by systems identifying as multiple may suggest that DID and multiplicity vary in experience, and the dominance of DID in research highlights a fundamental limitation in the understanding of multiplicity (Okano, In Press; Trifu, 2019). On the other hand, an assumption of a lack of distress and impairment in functioning could point to a further lack of understanding in the experience of multiplicity (Hacohen et al., 2019; Sagan, 2019), particularly in relation to distress associated with stigma. Overall, the paucity of research surrounding multiplicity with people with lived experience, especially during adolescence and emerging adulthood, could alienate the multiplicity community, leading to important gaps in the scientific and humanitarian understanding of how systems of people can coexist together.
https://www.vice.com/en/article/vdxgw9/when-multiple-personalities-are-not-a-disorder-400What she found were words like system and multiple and fronting—the vocabulary of the multiplicity community, a group that formed during the mailing lists of the 1980s. These multiples, as they call themselves, see themselves as healthy and empowered rather than disordered and "inherently pathological," as Falah says. And they desperately want the rest of the world to see them that way, too. Their vocabulary is extensive, but the most basic concepts are these: A "multiplicity system" refers to the group within the body itself (i.e., "I'm part of a multiplicity system"). The system might consist of two people, or it might consist of 200. The "outer world" is this physical plane that we're all stumbling around in, while "inner worlds" are the subjective realms where their system members spend time when they're not "fronting," or running the body in the outer world. When I speak to Falah, she is fronting, not Lark. The multiplicity community insists on being seen as healthy—even normal. This is our reality, they argue. Why are you imposing your reality onto us?
Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID)—and its controversial precursor, Multiple Personality Disorder—are terms roundly rejected by the community, and most of them don't feel that they belong in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM) at all. It's not that they don't believe people can suffer from DID (or, more broadly, Dissociative Disorder Not Otherwise Specified [DDNOS]). They just don't accept that they suffer from it. To them, all those with DID/DDNOS are multiple, but not all multiples are DID/DDNOS. Contrary to what a DID/DDNOS diagnosis implies, multiples want everyone in their system to be seen as people. Not fragments, alters, or personalities, but distinct individuals who happen to be inhabiting the same physical body.
https://aeon.co/ideas/what-we-can-learn-about-respect-and-identity-from-plurals A plural is a human being who says things like: ‘I’m one of many people inside my head.’ Although they are quite rare (it’s impossible to say how rare), plurals are increasingly visible on social media and in the occasional popular media article. At present, there is a
handbook online about how to respond to a co-worker’s ‘coming out’ (as the document puts it) as plural. You might think you’ve heard of plurals if you’ve heard of dissociative identity disorder (DID), because, like plurals, people with DID experience themselves as being psychologically multiple. But many plurals don’t meet the diagnostic criteria for DID. Often, this is because they don’t find their plurality per se to be distressing or
impairing. In other cases, it’s because they don’t meet the amnesia criterion for DID, since the multiple beings that plurals experience as being inside them can share experiences or communicate to each other about their experiences. Conversely, most people with DID aren’t plurals. Plurals don’t just feel as though they are psychologically multiple – they believe that they are. And they take each of these psychological beings, inhabiting one shared body, to be a full person: let’s call each of them a personp, where the little ‘p’ stands for ‘part of one human being’. As one personp puts it: ‘You presume that there’s a “real person” underneath all of us who’s conjuring up “imaginary friends”. No, we’re just people, thanks.’
--// As you can see the way the multiplicity is defined there appears to be clear consistent way it distinguishes itself from other experinces that being:
• Lack of impairment
• The belief that each personaity is it's own indivual person
• The belief that having multiple personalities isn't a disorder and can be healthy even normal
talk page consensus has shown that the Multiplicity(psychology) article was not medical
However, unlike self-help groups, these individuals did not gather in order to recover.Kate the mochii ( talk) 16:06, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
At present, there is a handbook online about how to respond to a co-worker’s ‘coming out’ (as the document puts it) as plural
Not to mention I didn't say stuff about DID wasn't allowed just that stuff about the DID community unreleated to the subculture wasn't allowed
voorts ( talk · contribs) wants to offer a third opinion. To assist with the process, editors are requested to summarize the dispute in a short sentence below.
Arguments why medicalized multiplicity communities (eg. DID TikTok) fit the scope of this article.
Arguments why this is a bad idea for the encyclopedia:
Alternative theoretical formulations from within the scientific community are not pseudoscience, but part of the scientific process. They should not be classified as pseudoscience but should still be put into context with respect to the mainstream perspective.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/psych-unseen/202302/enacted-identities-multiplicity-plurality-and-tulpamancy *Multiplicity, plurality, and tulpamancy bring a newfound awareness to the fact that many people experience a non-unitary self.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5468408/ With the increasing popularity and spread of the Internet, various forms of self-organized support groups have emerged. Multiplicity is a relatively new concept that encompasses people who consider themselves multiple by nature; that is, they have a group of individual selves who share the same body. It can be concluded that multiplicity is a label and a self-organized support group for people with severe identity disturbances, in some cases with symptoms of dissociative disorders. Further research is needed to assess clinically the underlying motivations, functionality and long-term changes in individuals who consider themselves multiple.// Most systems do not report amnesic barriers or recall traumatic events, and they insist that their multiplicity is something they were born with. Many of them call this healthy or a natural state of identity.// People who identify themselves as “multiple” have a system of multiple or alternative, selves, that share the same physical body. This is the first study to explore the phenomenon of multiplicity by assessing the experiences of people who identify themselves as “multiple.” https://www.lycoming.edu/schemata/pdfs/Sullivan.pdf :
With the popularization of the Internet within the last twenty years, and its increasing use as a forum for nameless individuals to voice thoughts they would otherwise keep private, many groups have risen out of anonymity. Utilizing various blogging platforms and social media, these fringe groups are attempting to normalize their behavior by commiserating with similar individuals. One such group calls themselves “multiple systems” or “plural people.”1 According to Astraea’s Web (2007), an online collection of information regarding this mental state, multiplicity is defined as “Two or more independent people who use the same body; the experience of sharing the body with others.” Essentially, in a similar way that the majority of people experience a single consciousness in their single body, a multiple system experiences at least one other additional, complete, and independent consciousness who may or may not share control of the physical body. It differs from the traditional definition of Dissociative Identity Disorder in that the individual insists they are consciously aware of the world while their other identities are present, or “fronting” (DSM-IV, 2006; Astraea’s, 2007)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9120276/ : In terms of differentiating between the terms DID and multiplicity, DID is associated with high levels of distress and reduced functioning within most diagnostic conceptualisations (American Psychiatric Association (APA), 2013). However, many people with multiplicity function well in terms of consciousness, memory, identity and perception of the environment (Ribáry et al., 2017), and appreciate the value of their multiple selves as a coping response to adversity and relational traumas (e.g. Parry et al., 2018a, b). The absence of distress experienced by systems identifying as multiple may suggest that DID and multiplicity vary in experience, and the dominance of DID in research highlights a fundamental limitation in the understanding of multiplicity (Okano, In Press; Trifu, 2019). On the other hand, an assumption of a lack of distress and impairment in functioning could point to a further lack of understanding in the experience of multiplicity (Hacohen et al., 2019; Sagan, 2019), particularly in relation to distress associated with stigma. Overall, the paucity of research surrounding multiplicity with people with lived experience, especially during adolescence and emerging adulthood, could alienate the multiplicity community, leading to important gaps in the scientific and humanitarian understanding of how systems of people can coexist together.
https://www.vice.com/en/article/vdxgw9/when-multiple-personalities-are-not-a-disorder-400
What she found were words like system and multiple and fronting—the vocabulary of the multiplicity community, a group that formed during the mailing lists of the 1980s. These multiples, as they call themselves, see themselves as healthy and empowered rather than disordered and "inherently pathological," as Falah says. And they desperately want the rest of the world to see them that way, too. Their vocabulary is extensive, but the most basic concepts are these: A "multiplicity system" refers to the group within the body itself (i.e., "I'm part of a multiplicity system"). The system might consist of two people, or it might consist of 200. The "outer world" is this physical plane that we're all stumbling around in, while "inner worlds" are the subjective realms where their system members spend time when they're not "fronting," or running the body in the outer world. When I speak to Falah, she is fronting, not Lark. The multiplicity community insists on being seen as healthy—even normal. This is our reality, they argue. Why are you imposing your reality onto us? Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID)—and its controversial precursor, Multiple Personality Disorder—are terms roundly rejected by the community, and most of them don't feel that they belong in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM) at all. It's not that they don't believe people can suffer from DID (or, more broadly, Dissociative Disorder Not Otherwise Specified [DDNOS]). They just don't accept that they suffer from it. To them, all those with DID/DDNOS are multiple, but not all multiples are DID/DDNOS. Contrary to what a DID/DDNOS diagnosis implies, multiples want everyone in their system to be seen as people. Not fragments, alters, or personalities, but distinct individuals who happen to be inhabiting the same physical body.
https://aeon.co/ideas/what-we-can-learn-about-respect-and-identity-from-plurals
A plural is a human being who says things like: ‘I’m one of many people inside my head.’ Although they are quite rare (it’s impossible to say how rare), plurals are increasingly visible on social media and in the occasional popular media article. At present, there is a handbook online about how to respond to a co-worker’s ‘coming out’ (as the document puts it) as plural. You might think you’ve heard of plurals if you’ve heard of dissociative identity disorder (DID), because, like plurals, people with DID experience themselves as being psychologically multiple. But many plurals don’t meet the diagnostic criteria for DID. Often, this is because they don’t find their plurality per se to be distressing or impairing. In other cases, it’s because they don’t meet the amnesia criterion for DID, since the multiple beings that plurals experience as being inside them can share experiences or communicate to each other about their experiences. Conversely, most people with DID aren’t plurals. Plurals don’t just feel as though they are psychologically multiple – they believe that they are. And they take each of these psychological beings, inhabiting one shared body, to be a full person: let’s call each of them a personp, where the little ‘p’ stands for ‘part of one human being’. As one personp puts it: ‘You presume that there’s a “real person” underneath all of us who’s conjuring up “imaginary friends”. No, we’re just people, thanks.’ --- Each of these sources makes a clear distinction between multiplicty and general D.I.D
"The presence of two or more distinct personality states does not always indicate the presence of a mental disorder. In certain circumstances (for example, as experienced by ‘mediums’ or other culturally accepted spiritual practitioners) the presence of multiple personality states is not experienced as aversive and is not associated with impairment in functioning. A diagnosis of Dissociative Identity Disorder should not be assigned in these cases." -- https://icd.who.int/browse11/l-m/en#/http://id.who.int/icd/entity/1829103493
While there is no consensus on Vice and reliability, I am a tad worried about leaning on the primary source nature of it. It's not that we should remove it, I don't think anyway, but we should consider finding something else if possible. Maxx-♥ talk and coffee ☕ 12:28, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
I'll get straight to the point here: in the technical language of the behavioural sciences, the words "iatrogenesis" and "iatrogenic" refer specifically to pathologies that are caused or worsened by medical and/or psychological therapies. [1]
The correct term for the phenomenon described in the section erroneously headed "links to iatrogenesis" (an ungrammatical construction, incidentally) is Social contagion, and this is the term used in the two relevant sources cited in that section. [2] [3]
This is a serious error, because the difference in meaning between iatrogenesis and self-diagnoses is highly significant. That difference is particularly salient when discussing the diagnosis of Dissociative identity disorder, because many specific cases of alleged MPD/DID have attracted criticism on the grounds that practitioners did, by reinforcing patients' beliefs, produce a wave of iatrogenic psychopathology. (For a particularly extreme example of such a case, see Michelle Remembers).
If nobody else steps in, I will simply rewrite the section heading. If, on the other hand, other editors would like to further discuss how best to deal with this issue, I'm happy to wait for others' input. Foxmilder ( talk) 10:09, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
This: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/cpp.2910?fbclid=PAAaYA2EcZAxCD7cDTUWhV93l1pCsh9ovJMddm5oZ8_V1-PQ7pjum3K4AxhEo is a recent study done on the multiplicity spectrum that I think would be useful to review and use as a source for new or existing information on this page.
I don't have the time to fully review it myself though, so I wanted to submit it here for others to look over. MarbleTheMoth ( talk) 00:28, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
I'm curious because this article was linked on another article that seemed to view DID and multiplicity as negative, claiming that TikTokers who claim to have it are being facetious. The tone of this article seems to be positive, but as far as I can tell the academic research about it seems to be inconclusive? Noah 💬 03:52, 13 January 2024 (UTC)