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@ Akbar the Great: Addressing conflicting points one by one below:
@
SheriffIsInTown: these issues already enjoy consensus in Wikipedia. Don't discredit yourself by pushing baseless revisionism bordering on
genocide denial. You can write an entire section on your views and place them in an article, but you cannot rewrite history. Bangladesh was recognized by several countries before 16 December 1971. I can't believe you bring this up in 2016. The area of operations should obviously refer to the
1971 Bangladesh genocide, because the Mukti Bahini was formed due to a genocide, especially the early atrocities which caused early resistance; and the entire war raged due to the genocide.
The violence by the Mukti Bahini against Urdu speaking civilians is already mentioned in the article, but anyone is welcome to make additions based on reliable sources.--
Akbar the Great (
talk) 08:42, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
"Habib Jalib bewailed the savagery that had ravished East Pakistan. “For whom should I sing my songs of love,” he asked, when “the garden is a bloody mess,” when there were battered flower buds and blood drenched leaves everywhere despite an unstoppable rain of tears.[38] Jalib had sensed that nothing could wash away the sins of the cabal of generals who had presided over the most inglorious moment in the history of Pakistan." [1]
−
@
SheriffIsInTown: see
RM June 2013 for the consensus. Whenever I tried discussing with you point wise, you would withdraw and argue that our interpretations are different. I am not the one hounding Bangladesh pages for any thing considered "anti-Pakistan" and "against the Pakistani leadership" and thus turning Wikipedia into a battlefield.--
Akbar the Great (
talk) 00:38, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
The
Proclamation of Bangladeshi Independence was issued on 17 April 1971 by the
Provisional Government of Bangladesh, which was in essence the formal leadership of the Mukti Bahini, and one of its signatories included
M A G Osmani, the Commander in Chief of Bangladesh Forces. It notes the the emergence of the resistance movement.
By April, the countryside was under the effective control of the Mukti Bahini.
[2]
"Whereas instead of fulfilling its promise...Pakistan declared an unjust and treacherous war....Whereas in the conduct of a ruthless and savage war Pakistan committed and is still continuously committing numerous acts of genocide and unprecedented tortures, amongst others on the civilian and unarmed people of Bangladesh....Whereas the Pakistan Government by levying an unjust war and committing genocide and by other repressive measures made it impossible for the elected representatives of the people of Bangladesh to meet and frame a Constitution, and give to themselves a Government....Whereas the people of Bangladesh by their heroism, bravery and revolutionary fervour have established effective control over the territories of Bangladesh."
--
Akbar the Great (
talk) 01:32, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
What does the text of proclamation has to do with questions raised above? And may I ask why did you revert my edits and restored unsourced content and removed the sourced one? Stop the edit-warring and if you have problems with edits, raise them here! Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 05:57, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
The proclamation was given to prove that the Mukti Bahini was formed due to a genocide, a fact you and User:Kautilya3 have questioned on this page.
Now look, you clearly are not a serious Wikipedia editor. Unfortunately, WP South Asia has been left to the dogs. I would love to retire but I can't unless you stop destroying 1971 articles.--
Akbar the Great (
talk) 06:42, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
References
Re [1]
SheriffsinTown, in the above edit you are removing large chunks of sourced text, apparently per WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT. I can see how the cold war section could be trimmed, but it does provide important context and it is directly relevant. The broader context of the genocide is relevant. The fact that MB enjoyed international support is relevant. US and USSR policy is also relevant (although this is the part that could be trimmed).
Rather it seems like you're just trying to remove any mention of the genocide - which is sourced and is the mainstream scholarly view on the subject - simply because you don't like it. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 19:43, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
Vinegarymass911 et al: Kennedy's picture on its own as a portrait is not relevant but if you have his picture with Indira Gandhi or with Mujib or with activists of Mukti Bahini (because they are the article subject), that would be more relevant. Its not necessary for every section to have a picture in it. Kennedy's picture like this, gives a wrong impression that he was a supporter of Mukti Bahini. As for benefits for freedom fighters, I don't think that's very much encyclopedic. We cannot just add every thing for which we find a source. Do we have a source for Yahya poster that its in fact a poster used during liberation and not something drawn by some body years after the liberation? If we have a source, still we don't want to have two pictures back to back in the same section. I think we should move it to July-November because that section does discuss something about Pakistan, others don't. Area of operation should only include areas of operation and nothing else, there is a field for timeline called "active" and lists from/to dates for organization's activity. That's a WP:OR to categorize their activity without supporting it with sources. @ Volunteer Marek: et al: I have reviewed WP:WEASEL and WP:ALLEGED and I think they actually support my point of view on including the reference to Kennedy's India visit regarding his statement about genocide. Naval operation, there are four sources currently in there, Banglapedia is dedicated to Bangladesh and I don't think can carry an NPOV, The Daily Star, interview with WP:PRIMARY boasting and bragging about his achievements. Two other sources do not mention number of vessels drowned so I suggest we take out the number from that sentence. International relations, majority point of view not to remove it completely but trim it so supporting the trimming instead of complete removal although I consider the whole section irrelevant. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 13:40, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
Anyone is welcomed to contest the following points regarding this edit dispute:
andThe Nixon administration in the US enjoyed close ties with Pakistani military junta due to its policy of rapprochement with Communist China after the Sino-Soviet split. Pakistan's dictator Yahya Khan acted as a mediator between the US and China. However, Washington knew that the independence of East Pakistan was inevitable.
Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 19:04, 12 February 2016 (UTC)Separately, US efforts to woo China through Pakistan led to India signing friendship treaty with Moscow in August 1971. For India, the treaty was an important insurance policy against a possible Chinese intervention on the side of Pakistan. China had fought a brief war with India in 1962. Both the US and China, however, ultimately failed to mobilize adequate support for Pakistan.
References
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Vaza12, you say that a certain type of info may not be suitable for this article, whereas that may be agreeable after discussion, but then you are modifying way more than what you are claiming [3], [4], [5], [6]. Especially, edits like these are POV edits where you are modifying content not said by the source. Also, you have given no explanation for your subsequent edits whatsoever. So, instead of initiating an edit-war, discuss the issue and gain consensus for you edits as they are not WP:NPOV.— TripWire ︢ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︡ ︢ ︡ ʞlɐʇ 19:54, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
Vaza12, I hope you did well with your commitment in Myanmar, and it seems that you are back. However, you are right back to the same disruptive editing with edits like these [7] [8] where you are removing sourved content. You say that the source does not support the content but I wonder why couldnt you see that the second source precisely talks about the role of the Provisional government. As pointed out earlier, this clearly shows that you are here to push a specific WP:AGENDA, and you have not been inclined to discuss the content but the editors, I will leave this to the Admins to deal with. Pinging @ RegentsPark:.— TripWire ︢ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︡ ︢ ︡ ʞlɐʇ 12:19, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
Though your reasoning that there has to be a common name or that that sources are incorrect does not carry weight, but I do agree with removing Provisional Bangladesh from the Area of Operation in the infobox. I think, Kautilya3 will agree too. However, we need to be careful regarding the generic use of this term elsewhere in the article.— TripWire ︢ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︡ ︢ ︡ ʞlɐʇ 17:06, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
Ref this fictitious citation and another Vaza, please stop adding fake sources. The one added for French says totally a different thing from what the content is and the second for Viet Cong is not mentioned in the given source. Advice: google search wont help here.— TripWire ︢ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︡ ︢ ︡ ʞlɐʇ 17:54, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
Yet it was the Viet Cong which organized themselves into a united and indomitable army. They, like us, were a people's army.
A resistance movement- like the maquis in France during the Second World War- lacks the political and demographic base necessary for mobilisation of manpower and resources to convert from clandestine to open warfare. Although the national motivation in Bangla Desh was almost total, the ranks of the Mukti Bahini were filled not so much from a people's base as by intellectuals, students and middle classes.
Vaza, again, just by giving page numbers to the book sources you cannot fake the citations. Both the citations which you have given with page numbers are incorrect. The first source, The Lightning Campaign: The Indo-Pakistan War, 1971, that you gave says the following:
Now, how on earth can you cite the above to support "The Mukti Bahini has been compared with the French Resistance"??
And a query for "Viet Cong" in the second source, Bullets of '71: A Freedom Fighter's Story, results into ZERO results!! What are you upto? Please self-revert or I will have to request an Admin to intervene.— TripWire ︢ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︡ ︢ ︡ ʞlɐʇ 18:37, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
Both of you, please calm down a little, assume good faith, and focus on the content issues.
I am not an expert on military matters, but the comparison to the French resistance seems reasonable. See this reference, for example. The Indian Army people seem to make this comparison seriously because, from their point of view, Mukti Bahini was like the French resistance, weakening the Pakistani effectiveness.
The Nabi source is too weak. It is a WP:PRIMARY source and it is essentially self-published. This reference says that the comparison with Vietcong is no good. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 21:16, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
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This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Mukti Bahini article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
@ Akbar the Great: Addressing conflicting points one by one below:
@
SheriffIsInTown: these issues already enjoy consensus in Wikipedia. Don't discredit yourself by pushing baseless revisionism bordering on
genocide denial. You can write an entire section on your views and place them in an article, but you cannot rewrite history. Bangladesh was recognized by several countries before 16 December 1971. I can't believe you bring this up in 2016. The area of operations should obviously refer to the
1971 Bangladesh genocide, because the Mukti Bahini was formed due to a genocide, especially the early atrocities which caused early resistance; and the entire war raged due to the genocide.
The violence by the Mukti Bahini against Urdu speaking civilians is already mentioned in the article, but anyone is welcome to make additions based on reliable sources.--
Akbar the Great (
talk) 08:42, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
"Habib Jalib bewailed the savagery that had ravished East Pakistan. “For whom should I sing my songs of love,” he asked, when “the garden is a bloody mess,” when there were battered flower buds and blood drenched leaves everywhere despite an unstoppable rain of tears.[38] Jalib had sensed that nothing could wash away the sins of the cabal of generals who had presided over the most inglorious moment in the history of Pakistan." [1]
−
@
SheriffIsInTown: see
RM June 2013 for the consensus. Whenever I tried discussing with you point wise, you would withdraw and argue that our interpretations are different. I am not the one hounding Bangladesh pages for any thing considered "anti-Pakistan" and "against the Pakistani leadership" and thus turning Wikipedia into a battlefield.--
Akbar the Great (
talk) 00:38, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
The
Proclamation of Bangladeshi Independence was issued on 17 April 1971 by the
Provisional Government of Bangladesh, which was in essence the formal leadership of the Mukti Bahini, and one of its signatories included
M A G Osmani, the Commander in Chief of Bangladesh Forces. It notes the the emergence of the resistance movement.
By April, the countryside was under the effective control of the Mukti Bahini.
[2]
"Whereas instead of fulfilling its promise...Pakistan declared an unjust and treacherous war....Whereas in the conduct of a ruthless and savage war Pakistan committed and is still continuously committing numerous acts of genocide and unprecedented tortures, amongst others on the civilian and unarmed people of Bangladesh....Whereas the Pakistan Government by levying an unjust war and committing genocide and by other repressive measures made it impossible for the elected representatives of the people of Bangladesh to meet and frame a Constitution, and give to themselves a Government....Whereas the people of Bangladesh by their heroism, bravery and revolutionary fervour have established effective control over the territories of Bangladesh."
--
Akbar the Great (
talk) 01:32, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
What does the text of proclamation has to do with questions raised above? And may I ask why did you revert my edits and restored unsourced content and removed the sourced one? Stop the edit-warring and if you have problems with edits, raise them here! Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 05:57, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
The proclamation was given to prove that the Mukti Bahini was formed due to a genocide, a fact you and User:Kautilya3 have questioned on this page.
Now look, you clearly are not a serious Wikipedia editor. Unfortunately, WP South Asia has been left to the dogs. I would love to retire but I can't unless you stop destroying 1971 articles.--
Akbar the Great (
talk) 06:42, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
References
Re [1]
SheriffsinTown, in the above edit you are removing large chunks of sourced text, apparently per WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT. I can see how the cold war section could be trimmed, but it does provide important context and it is directly relevant. The broader context of the genocide is relevant. The fact that MB enjoyed international support is relevant. US and USSR policy is also relevant (although this is the part that could be trimmed).
Rather it seems like you're just trying to remove any mention of the genocide - which is sourced and is the mainstream scholarly view on the subject - simply because you don't like it. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 19:43, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
Vinegarymass911 et al: Kennedy's picture on its own as a portrait is not relevant but if you have his picture with Indira Gandhi or with Mujib or with activists of Mukti Bahini (because they are the article subject), that would be more relevant. Its not necessary for every section to have a picture in it. Kennedy's picture like this, gives a wrong impression that he was a supporter of Mukti Bahini. As for benefits for freedom fighters, I don't think that's very much encyclopedic. We cannot just add every thing for which we find a source. Do we have a source for Yahya poster that its in fact a poster used during liberation and not something drawn by some body years after the liberation? If we have a source, still we don't want to have two pictures back to back in the same section. I think we should move it to July-November because that section does discuss something about Pakistan, others don't. Area of operation should only include areas of operation and nothing else, there is a field for timeline called "active" and lists from/to dates for organization's activity. That's a WP:OR to categorize their activity without supporting it with sources. @ Volunteer Marek: et al: I have reviewed WP:WEASEL and WP:ALLEGED and I think they actually support my point of view on including the reference to Kennedy's India visit regarding his statement about genocide. Naval operation, there are four sources currently in there, Banglapedia is dedicated to Bangladesh and I don't think can carry an NPOV, The Daily Star, interview with WP:PRIMARY boasting and bragging about his achievements. Two other sources do not mention number of vessels drowned so I suggest we take out the number from that sentence. International relations, majority point of view not to remove it completely but trim it so supporting the trimming instead of complete removal although I consider the whole section irrelevant. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 13:40, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
Anyone is welcomed to contest the following points regarding this edit dispute:
andThe Nixon administration in the US enjoyed close ties with Pakistani military junta due to its policy of rapprochement with Communist China after the Sino-Soviet split. Pakistan's dictator Yahya Khan acted as a mediator between the US and China. However, Washington knew that the independence of East Pakistan was inevitable.
Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 19:04, 12 February 2016 (UTC)Separately, US efforts to woo China through Pakistan led to India signing friendship treaty with Moscow in August 1971. For India, the treaty was an important insurance policy against a possible Chinese intervention on the side of Pakistan. China had fought a brief war with India in 1962. Both the US and China, however, ultimately failed to mobilize adequate support for Pakistan.
References
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 02:21, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
Vaza12, you say that a certain type of info may not be suitable for this article, whereas that may be agreeable after discussion, but then you are modifying way more than what you are claiming [3], [4], [5], [6]. Especially, edits like these are POV edits where you are modifying content not said by the source. Also, you have given no explanation for your subsequent edits whatsoever. So, instead of initiating an edit-war, discuss the issue and gain consensus for you edits as they are not WP:NPOV.— TripWire ︢ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︡ ︢ ︡ ʞlɐʇ 19:54, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
Vaza12, I hope you did well with your commitment in Myanmar, and it seems that you are back. However, you are right back to the same disruptive editing with edits like these [7] [8] where you are removing sourved content. You say that the source does not support the content but I wonder why couldnt you see that the second source precisely talks about the role of the Provisional government. As pointed out earlier, this clearly shows that you are here to push a specific WP:AGENDA, and you have not been inclined to discuss the content but the editors, I will leave this to the Admins to deal with. Pinging @ RegentsPark:.— TripWire ︢ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︡ ︢ ︡ ʞlɐʇ 12:19, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
Though your reasoning that there has to be a common name or that that sources are incorrect does not carry weight, but I do agree with removing Provisional Bangladesh from the Area of Operation in the infobox. I think, Kautilya3 will agree too. However, we need to be careful regarding the generic use of this term elsewhere in the article.— TripWire ︢ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︡ ︢ ︡ ʞlɐʇ 17:06, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
Ref this fictitious citation and another Vaza, please stop adding fake sources. The one added for French says totally a different thing from what the content is and the second for Viet Cong is not mentioned in the given source. Advice: google search wont help here.— TripWire ︢ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︡ ︢ ︡ ʞlɐʇ 17:54, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
Yet it was the Viet Cong which organized themselves into a united and indomitable army. They, like us, were a people's army.
A resistance movement- like the maquis in France during the Second World War- lacks the political and demographic base necessary for mobilisation of manpower and resources to convert from clandestine to open warfare. Although the national motivation in Bangla Desh was almost total, the ranks of the Mukti Bahini were filled not so much from a people's base as by intellectuals, students and middle classes.
Vaza, again, just by giving page numbers to the book sources you cannot fake the citations. Both the citations which you have given with page numbers are incorrect. The first source, The Lightning Campaign: The Indo-Pakistan War, 1971, that you gave says the following:
Now, how on earth can you cite the above to support "The Mukti Bahini has been compared with the French Resistance"??
And a query for "Viet Cong" in the second source, Bullets of '71: A Freedom Fighter's Story, results into ZERO results!! What are you upto? Please self-revert or I will have to request an Admin to intervene.— TripWire ︢ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︡ ︢ ︡ ʞlɐʇ 18:37, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
Both of you, please calm down a little, assume good faith, and focus on the content issues.
I am not an expert on military matters, but the comparison to the French resistance seems reasonable. See this reference, for example. The Indian Army people seem to make this comparison seriously because, from their point of view, Mukti Bahini was like the French resistance, weakening the Pakistani effectiveness.
The Nabi source is too weak. It is a WP:PRIMARY source and it is essentially self-published. This reference says that the comparison with Vietcong is no good. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 21:16, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
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