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Muslims strongly believe that Muhammad (peace be upon him)is the last messenger of Allah, all mighty. No one is allowed to make pics of Muhammad (peace be upon him)or make any sketch that relates to Muhammad (peace be upon him) (No, Muslims aren't allowed). It is humbly requested to remove these pictures from the article as it can cause serious reactions from the muslim community. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Atifgil ( talk • contribs) 09:36, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
I think that pictures should be removed instantly because they are offensive to
Islam and to
Muslims. Besides, whpever wrote the article should be a Muslim expert or at least a muslim for that matter! I strongly suggest the pictures showing our beloved Prophet Muhammad's face must be removed. If a strong-powered Muslim defender sees this article, there might be some problems that will face Wikipedia and its owners. This is not a threat! This is a something to make you think of what may happen if these pictures are kept on the article further more. Please keep this in mind, and I hope you remove them as fast as possible. -
Simsimtigger 28 September 2007 —Preceding
signed but undated comment was added at
14:46, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
I strongly suggest removing the facial pics of Muhammad (PBUH), it is strongly against faith to see his face since it can never be accurately depicted. Thank you :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.68.48.48 ( talk) 00:48, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Yes, Please Remove the Facial Picuture of Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H), and respect all religions..... —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Zarmaan (
talk •
contribs)
09:13, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
I haven't seen anywhere in quran that says "don't show pics of prophet muhammad".That is made up after him
In Alhadeth Alsharef (prophet Mohammed sayings) sketching pictures is prohibited, it's like matching Allah creations. Please respect Islam and remove the pictures.
just remove these pictures ok!-- Mohammad ka ( talk) 00:31, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
With reference to the discussion about pictures depicting the Prophet (PBUH) below, I'm sure that all of my fellow Wiki-users will admit to the fact that the Wiki foundation really does a lot of homework & that in Wiki's process of letting the masses access such information without any hindrances, they have to let go of certain rules which may openly flout Islamic teachings/ law. One of the pillars of Islam which form what Muslims call 'Iman' is 'Shahadah' or in other words, Muslims all over the world testify to the fact that there is no other God than Allah & that The Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is his Messenger. It vehemently condemns & prescribes severe punishment for those Muslims who associate anything/anyone with Allah. It also strictly forbids the reproduction/creation of any live creatures created by the Almighty. Now, when we talk about a Muslim's, let alone the Prophet's pictures being taken, created & distributed, it can be plainly termed 'haraam'. One must try & understand that the Prophet had the same restrictions/freedom as a normal Muslim had & has till date. As per a user's comment that tomorrow, a Muslim might claim that pork is forbidden in Islam & that they might request removal of pictures depicting swines from the Wiki pages. My friend, Muslims are forbidden from consuming pork & not viewing them through what we call 'eyes' , bestowed by the Almighty. Any questions on the above is welcomed.
I would also like to add, if this page is ever unprotected, please include a disclaimer that would hold individuals who edit information otherwise not included in this article by Wikipedia or any other allied subsidiary/partner, for the authenticity of the information that they append. For the general public: Please try to understand that any wrong facts stated herein may hurt people of various religions - Christians, Muslims & Jews and all others that follow the same ideology. —Preceding unsigned comment added by M.mzq ( talk • contribs) 20:10, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
I think that what is needed is an analysis of why these pictures are justified and included. Images of the Prophet is a special case and deserves more than just a simple statement of consensus since I think it is safe to say that Islam is underrepresented among Wikipedia editors. There are many examples of major mainstream media observing this practice of avoiding images of the Prophet or his immediate family members. Is it too much to ask that a coherent statement be composed so that those who do not prevail can be referred to some coherent statement of judgment? If such a statement were coherent and fairly comprehensive, I expect that such a statement would go a long way towards building a genuine consensus and mutual understanding.-- Createinfo2 21:46, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia is encycolpedic, and will not show favortism to any religion. For example, if we removed the images of Muhammad, then that would be showing favortism to Islam over Christianity because we still show images of Jesus. But if we removed all images of Muhammed and Jesus, then we will be showing favoritism to other religions like Buddhism by showing images of Buddha. And if we remove all images of Muhammed, Jesus, and Buddha, then we would be showing favoritism to Islam and Christianity, because images of Buddha are very important to Buddhist. You can see that we have no choice but to uphold the Wikipedia policy of showing depictions of all subjects of a biography article. -- MahaPanta ( talk) 21:54, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
In the Name of God, the Beneficient, the Merciful Excellence Belongs to GOD As Salaam Alaikum and peace be upon all of you who view this article. I am writing as a concernced human being and a concerned striving Muslim. These pictures are a defamation to humanity, Islam and Muhammad(SAW). It was previously addressed to remove the pictures but No attention has been given to this Great Concern. We kindly ask both pictures be removed, due to the fact that it is strongly fordidden in Christianity, Islam, and Judaism. Pictures of true messengers and servants of GOD create barriers, SUPERIORITY COMPLEXES, stereotypes, and many other vices that hinders one's perception of truth and justice. We all know history and seen what false images of the prophets have done to the minds of billions of people. Please honor this request. All PRAISE is for God, creator of all creation wa salaam alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh and peace be with you all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.188.43.1 ( talk) 18:44, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Please: remove the alleged images of the Prophet! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.87.183.204 ( talk) 12:13, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
No. And please read to top of the page were it clearly states that any requests to remove images of the prophet will be ignored/deleted. ( Butters x 11:11, 16 November 2007 (UTC))
The point is why to pick up so many pictures of Prophet Muhammad painted or drawn while this is highly controversial and no real picture of him. Does saying that articles that have grown have pictures mean that you post the Danish cartoons as well. That means you should post all the objectionable pictures pertaining to Judaism and Christianity as well. Honestly reply.-- Muneeb smw ( talk) 18:31, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
If we were doing an article about negative cartoon depictions of religious figures then yes I would say that we should post those. However, the depictions (or rather depiction since I think at this point there's only one) of Muhammad in the article is a legitimate image of historical, cultural, and religious value to someone trying to understand the disparate viewpoints in Islam and how the Islamic religion has viewed its most important figure. Therefore it can, will, and should be included in this article. This is not an insult its just the way wikipedia works. RecentlyAnon ( talk) 17:47, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
I wouldn't repeat what has been said before about removing those offensive Pictures...I just want you to know about http://www.thepetitionsite.com/2/removal-of-the-pics-of-muhammad-from-wikipedia#signatures those 13600+ and counting who voted for the removal...so where are the people who what the pictures to be published????????
Wikipedia does not function by snout-counting. We have rules, the number of people who want something to be removed is irrelevant if the rules say it should stay. We operate by consensus but this isn't a democracy. Again the images aren't meant as an insult you have to realize that the whole world doesn't live or function according to the laws of any one sect or religion. RecentlyAnon ( talk) 19:45, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
Actually, in Islam it's a sin to show or draw pictures of prophets, the Wikipedia staff should understand and respect this, so please, remove the pics which "show" the prophet mohammad (peace be upon him), and at least "unlock" the page so we can do this ourselfs. 84.235.26.248 ( talk) 12:27, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Good Morning.
It would be very considerate and kind of you, if you could remove all the Illustrations depicting Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W S.A.W S.A.W) that you have included in your article.
I very much appreciate that you are very respectful in the development of this article, and I believe that by you being kind enough to remove the illustrations I am refering to, would be a gesture of further respect towards Islam.
I came to this article with much happiness, but as soon as I saw the illustrations, I had no alternative but to leave. It is for this reason that I have not even been able to read the atricle yet.
At the end of the day, you are writing an article related to Islam, and you should be considerate towards the teachings of Islam and feelings of the believers.
By removing the Illustrations, you will not be making the article incomplete - it does not make any difference to this article if the illustrations are not there.
In Islam we know that Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W S.A.W S.A.W) has no shadow, no photograph or portrait was ever made of Him, and the same goes for any illustrations. Therefore, HOW can you put illustrations that have no authenticity?
Warmest Regards. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.216.65.57 ( talk) 15:39, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for being so polite. But were still not going to listen to you. ( Butters x ( talk) 20:29, 27 November 2007 (UTC))
Please see the replies above and do not create new sections. Thank you. clicketyclick yaketyyak 09:30, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
This issue has been brought up before in [2] as well. petedavo ( talk) 05:04, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
we as Muslims have not received any picture of our prophet, unlike christians for example, they have drawings of Jesus in every Church, so please do not compare us to christians, it's not acceptable at all to show these pictures, no human being will ever be able to copy Muhammed, even these pictures are historically recorded, but still can not be used in the difinition of Muhammed, please understand this, many non muslim will visit this page we do not want them to see Islam this way, we want to show the true Islam, and in true Islam we do not have any pictures of Muhammed.
if you go to the Arabic version of Wiki and see Muhammed's page you will not find any picture! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Abboodeh ( talk • contribs) 02:45, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Maybe we should add some, or are the rules different for the Arabic wikipedia? If they are that's nifty but the rules here say that we include images in biographies and that we don't cater to specific religions. RecentlyAnon ( talk) 00:15, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
wikipedia says "some articles may include objectionable text, images, or links if they are relevant to the content (such as the articles about the penis and pornography) and do not violate any of our existing policies (especially neutral point of view)", this is good, but what about the correctness of information.putting these illustrations of prophet MUHAMMAD (PBUH) gives a wrong information that muslims have drawings of prophet MUHAMMAD (PBUH) which is not true. so you have to remove the pictures containing the illustrations or if you didn't do that, then a least make a clarification or qoute or add another section saying that the image is not true and in islam it is prevented to draw prophet MUHAMMAD (PBUH) and no one made a copy of him. this is if wikipedia do care about the correctness of information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nagibcs ( talk • contribs) 12:53, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Images posted are totally irrelevant to the article,wrongly quoted,and fake,they are not medieval ages pictures and have no relevancy to the article.Stop using wikipedia to set your personal scores. I am removing them..IF you have any doubts,please discuss on this page
I'm sorry if I wrote in the wrong place.. But I totally agree that some of the pictures are fake and I wish someone can remove it.. I tried to search for someone who have the authority to do so but I don't know who to contact.
Alkami.h ( talk) 14:21, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm sure that there's a reason since it's been like this since February, but why has the second picture been stretched to show only the Kaʿbah instead of the Kaʿbah and a veiled Muhammad as the caption describes? Rdr0 ( talk) 04:30, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
I think the topic of removal Illustrations of Muhammad(PBUH) has gone to long and we should finish it with making a new topic and change then name of this topic "History about Muhammad" if admins of wikipdia want to keep these illustrations, as every body knows that almost all illustrations comes from Shi'a branch of Islam that is a small minority and majority of them are also against this illustrations. because this article is part of "Series on Islam" that mean every reader will think that it represent Islam but in reality it is not! we can place a link for such thing in also read or all positions where current illustrations are. I know these Illustrations are reality but that is bad reality and we should not hide it but try to contain it with proper care just like nuclear wast.
-- Faraz Ahmad ( talk) 04:49, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
thanks for that that answer my one query but second query is still there i am backing by request with a petition [ click to see Petition], I am also against censor but still book are rated. -- Faraz Ahmad ( talk) 05:02, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
They would really enrich the encyclopedic experience. -- NEMT ( talk) 22:17, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
please remove the pictures that show prophet mohamed's face,these pics are offensive to us as muslems,in this page you can find more than 14,000 signatures from people demanding the removal of these pictures
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/2/removal-of-the-pics-of-muhammad-from-wikipedia —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kashwaa ( talk • contribs) 01:22, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
please remove the pic for mohamed this pic too bad —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.71.37.61 ( talk) 02:30, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Please remove all photos refer to our prophet Muhammed.
Everybody should respect our religion.
these phots are not accepted —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.187.13.60 ( talk) 05:21, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not censored. Your superstition is not an acceptable reason to degrade the quality of wikipedia articles. If you're offended by images of muhammad you are not obligated to view them. I suggest you use Muslim Wiki instead. -- NEMT ( talk) 07:19, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Dear Wikipedia, Please remove all refer to our prophet Muhamed. This act is not acceptable at all. Please respect religions, Wikipedia is a good encyclopedia and we respect its site, and we expect that Wikipedia doing the same. thanks in advance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Amirag ( talk • contribs) 05:49, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Please remove all photos refer to our prophet Muhammed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.233.221.243 ( talk) 08:49, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
dear sir I AM REFUSE TO BUT PICTURE TO OUR Prophet MOHAMED IN YOUR PAGES PLEASA REMOVE IT
AHMED —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.36.128.243 ( talk) 09:30, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Please remove all photos refer to our prophet Muhammed —Preceding unsigned comment added by Emmanzur ( talk • contribs) 14:17, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
-- Faraz Ahmad ( talk) 04:42, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Nobody said it's an Islamic Encyclopedia; however, it doesn't need to be Islamic to respect Islam, and it doesn't need to be Chrestian to respect Chrestianity. Sir, the matter of respect is not tied to certain religion. If you feel that the encyclopedia is hurting Chrestians in any way, it's your full right to express that and request to change it.
What I want to say here is that such pictures for Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) do really hurt all Muslims all over the world. And if this encyclopedia really aims at being the most popular, reliable, and neutral one, it should care about the feelings and beliefs of 1/6 of the world popluation. Ossama Rashed ( talk) 07:46, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
we must remove it NOW .. please remove that picture, it is not allowed for us to put such things..
@ Matt57: Because of your personal experience you are tended to be anti. there are some issues that are not mention in policies. and you people are also not following them by pushing your agenda.-- Faraz Ahmad ( talk) 07:01, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Wait Wait, Did I *JUST* hear somebody say 'its an undisputed fact that muhammed is the greatest person in history'? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.218.222.194 ( talk) 03:57, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
i am sorry
Thanks a lot for hearing us and also for your patience and our conversation is only just a view we Leaves to you Freedom Disposition and a Freedom discretion about it .. but we hope to remove it and finally thanks again .
I has created an Arbitration request this topic so top level administration in Wikipedia can be involved in this sensitive topic. you can see that can contribute in so your opinion can count
Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Muhammad
--
Faraz Ahmad (
talk)
03:18, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
then we can decide what is the line of devide
--
Faraz Ahmad (
talk)
04:51, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
thanks Matt57 for that reference it reads "The issue surrounding depictions of Muhammad on Wikipedia has been of considerable dispute. Some users argue that such images which may be highly inflammatory to some Muslim readers should not be used, or should be used lightly at the very least. Others disagree with this sentiment on the basis that Wikipedia is not censored and that the images are acceptable as they don't offend "typical" Wikipedia readers." its says some Muslims but in reality all Muslims do and they are over a Billion in this world. i did not say that to oppress others but pinpoint where these statements are faulty and misrepresent facts. but i can see the result of that pole clearly -- Faraz Ahmad ( talk) 05:01, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
"i regard this as a cyber crusade" ...do we really need to hear anything else? -- NEMT ( talk) 07:46, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Please, it's not our discussion. As a professional editor, you should concentrate on the topic under discussion. We have nothing to do with Hilter here! Again, not being censored does never justify being offensive! What a 1/6 of the world population see as offensive should be so! no matter on what basis do they judge this as being so. Guys, we need to live in a world of cooperation, peace and respect. Not choosing this option will lead us to an enless loop of hate and conflicts. Let's understand this very well and remove the pictures please! Ossama Rashed ( talk) 08:09, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
The claimed picture has no proofs , and the other people in that strange paint are all look alike , so why wikipedia insists to keep the picture .. its not in any way related to Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) , i don't think that the administartors will keep the picture , they'll remove it soon , if they are honest with theirself .. and despite that we know the characteristics of Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) , but it is prohibited to try to draw This characteristics to shape even a close imagination of his Holy Person. So stop argue about this "Mr wiki admins" , so you dont loss our trust ..
ISLAM is PEACE
--
Basem3wad (
talk)
20:43, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
No need to remind you that we don't need to have religious obligations to ask wikipedia to remove untrue ,untrusted , and uneeded pictures or articles on the wiki pages , maybe you can't see that a new trusted encyclopedia will face the wikipedia , but which is more developed than this used one,
YES , its been used by those who knows nothing but hate to other religions , cultures , those who want to give the picture they want about what they want , your way in discussing this article shows that you're NOT neutral , & that you hang on to your mind despite of the thousands of explanations from us , and the thousands of signatures of just who knew about this article , check this petition
Remove it wiki
and keep your interest to yourself , you're so far from the scientific honesty.
this article will give a bad reputation about wikipedia , and it will make wikipedia just a place where you can find a little information to seek the truth , not the place where you can find the truth , this encyclopedia will fall down , if you do not give attention to a billion Muslim , with many non-muslims , who objects to your policy.
--
Basem3wad (
talk)
18:59, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Well , if you want to write about Islam and Muslims, its not you who should do so , you have no right to claim things about Islam and Muslims while you are not even a Muslim , even if you are a Muslim you should be verified as someone who has the proper knowledge to talk about Islam , so to all of this site administrators , you lost the trust , you have no right to close this article and you have no right to put such allegations . and if you want to see a little reaction to this article which you claim that it has been reviewed and It has wide acceptance among editors and is considered a standard that all users should follow , you can check out the objections of some of us who knew about your illegal article just go to this link and see some of the reactions , then you might think again of your reply.
Removal Of the pics from wikipedia--
Basem3wad (
talk)
16:08, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
It's taking ages for letters to appear as you type in the edit window, because the page is overburdened. The top of the edit window suggests archiving. But I didn't like to go ahead and archive because I'm not an expert and wouldn't label what's in it well, etc. All archiving appreciated.:) Merkinsmum 19:57, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
I think it interesting to see comments (like the one by User:TharkunColl above) that ask things like "Is there anything we can do to stop Muslims coming here ...". I take it that most people here assume that "we" (meaning those contributing to wikipedia) and "believing Muslim" are mutually exclusive categories (or, at least those who insist on keeping pictures of Muhammad from long after his death, do so believe). This, to me, is rather instructive as to the self-imagined community of many wikipedians: by self-definition, exclusive of Muslims (and perhaps all non-western POVs?). Sad, very sad indeed. 68.215.218.14 ( talk) 02:31, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
I am a Muslim and do not oppose the pictures of Muhammad. The pictures do not impede your ability to practice Islam as you wish to if one posts a picture of Muhammad here no more than it is an obstruction to your ability to practice if someone else has premarital sex or if someone else consumes alcohol. Do what is best for yourself, but this page should not be censored for all. This page is not written by Muslims for Muslims. Moreover, this page does mention the sensitivity associated with depictions of Muhammad, even if the page itself includes the pictures. Several views are represented in this article, including the Sunni view and Shi'a view. - Rosywounds ( talk) 05:45, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
It looks like there is a conflict between those who want the picture in here and those who want it removed. Cant there be a compromise, like we keep the picture in there but it is hidden so that if you want to see it you click here but if you don't want to don't click here. -- Hdt83 Chat 06:30, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Example:
16th century Ottoman depiction of Muhammad | |
---|---|
![]() |
I thought it was funny. Anyway I don't think it will pacify those who don't want it available at all, just have to deal with it like every other article that is vandalized often. The only way they are going to accept it is if they go study some more Islam to see that the picture isn't evil, but only worshiping it like Jesus is, as I said elsewhere.
Since Jesus is also an important prophet in Islam, I might be a lot more sympathetic if they protested the same way in the Jesus articles over his pictures since they are definitely used to worship him. In failing to do that they are being hypocritical and/or way off base in their priorities, in my opinion. - Bikinibomb ( talk) 06:59, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
To expand: the intent of the prohibition is so you don't have things to worship Mohammed by. But it's obvious some do worship him above other prophets since they don't raise the same fuss over Jesus, when in fact the Quran says all the prophets are the same, just servants of God and not to be worshiped. So they are actually destroying the meaning of the very ideal they claim to uphold. - Bikinibomb ( talk) 07:02, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
That is exactly what has been done after a lengthy debate at Rorschach inkblot test, so there is precedent for it. I actually think it would make people be more aware that showing images of Muhammad is prohibited, when they might not already know that, so I'd have no problem with it. MilesAgain ( talk) 08:47, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
A question for those dying to have a picture of the Prophet Mohammad here: Can you be certain that a certain picture is His? Obviously No - because no one has His picture, or can verify it. Thus it will be incorrect to post a picture here that you only 'think' is His. It would definately be equivalent to spreading false and unverifiable information. Personally I find it surprising why some people are bent upon having a picture here. Majority Muslims' point of view is to not have the picture and that I understand; but that of those demanding the picture, obviously mostly non-Mulsims, I don't. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.231.177.100 ( talk) 14:02, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Bikinibomb, I wonder how is it that making fun of other people's prophet is laughable in any way... Mohammed playing peek-a-boo??! what a silly comment. Unfortunately wikipedia has turned into a method for many editors to express their anti-Islam feelings ( Imad marie ( talk) 15:26, 11 January 2008 (UTC))
The images a question aren't even very faithful depictions of Muhammad as he is described in hadith. They are, thus, quite useless in depicting Muhammad as a real person. Aliibn ( talk) 01:27, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Are you more concerned with resisting a Muslim "dogma" - or with your own wish to impose a Western i.e. Christian European convention on an encyclopedia that is meant for everyone?
Illustrations are meant to illustrate some point in an article (we do not add images solely because we happen to have them around). The question is, what would a portrait of Muhammed illustrate? I completely understand those people who think "It would illustrate what Muhammad looked like" or "It would illustrate what people thought Muhammad loked like." But does an article really need these kinds of illustrations? Some may take it for granted - it is obvious! I however do not. What people consider appropriate illstrations is not universal. Therefore what people consider appropriate illustrations is a matter of convention. I suspect that many people contributing to Wikipedia think that an article about someone should have a picture of that person, because they grew up in countries where there is a strong tradition of figurative art. Certainly, representations of Jesus and the saints have been central in the history of European art and culture, so long dominated by Christian practices. So it is a perfectly reasonable convention to people who grew up in a culture that was long dominated by Christianity to have the convention, that bigraphies should be illustrated by a portrait of the person.
But this is just a convention. There is not absolute or universal logic behind it.
Here is another way to think about the issue: followers of Muhammed have a strong tradition opposed to figurative art. Wouldn't the best - meaning the most appropriate illustration to accompany an article on Muhammed be something that illustrates this Muslim convention? Maybe the best illustration for this article would be an empty box with a caption stating that Muslims often oppose representations of Muhammed.
To do so would not be to "bow down to religious pressure." It would be to illustrate an article with an illustration that is appropriate to the article; something that actually illustrates an important point in the article. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:43, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Please read what I wrote. You are not responding to what I wrote. i never said Wikipedia should be bound by religious dogma. Never. I defy you to show me where I wrote that. I didn't write it because I do not believe it. What I did say is that what we think of as an illustration should not be dictated by a single (supposedly universal?) convention. Illustrations that accompany an article should actually "illustrate" the article, i.e. convey something meaningful that is in the article. In other words, the appropriateness of an illustration is relative to the article it is meant to illustrate. And I believe, firmly, that on these grounds alone (and not religious dogma) that a picture of Muhammed would be an illustration that "misses the point" and fails effectively to illustrate the article. An effective illustration might be an image of some text, or an empty box that illustrates a very important legacy of Muhammed, which was his influence on conventions of representation. That would be a meaningful illustration that would help educate people about Muhammed. I am opposed to your "one size fits all" approach to encyclopedia articles. It is very bad pedagogy. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:57, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Can someone provide a cogent explanation for why the article must include a portrait of Muhammad? What is the point of adding such an illustration, and why is it an important point? Slrubenstein | Talk 22:09, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
No. 84: Um, are you incabable of answering my question, or do you simply not want to? You write, "If there are no actual true to life portraits of him painted then the illustrations by Islamic scholars will have to do." Why? "Why do they have to do?" I do not see why they "have to do." You have not answered my question, why is it necessary toinclude an image of Muhammad? You write, "Whether they improve the article or not is a matter of opinion." Well, okay, you are of the opinion that it improves the article. Okay, but I asked you to explain to me why you think this. How does it improve the article_ Why? Please justify what you advocate. If you have no reason, your edit is irrational and can be discounted. TharkunColl continues to use a red'herring by playing some religion card. I am not Muslim and seek neither to adhere to nor enforce an Islamic taboo for religious reasons. What I want to know is, I repeat, why di you want to include a portrait of Muhammad to the article? What is your reason? Again, if you cannot provide a reason, you are being irrational. Slrubenstein | Talk 22:36, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
"The images express the subject matter of the article." How? It is not obvious to me so you need to explain it. The subject matter of the articl is a man who was a "statesman in Medina, a rebel in Mecca," a prophet an reformer ... how does a portrait of Muhammad illustrate this subject matter? I could see a map of battles, a chart of kinship alliances, a summary of his propohesies, as all illustrating the subject matter. but simply a picture of Muhammed? What pray tell content is being illustrated? The article says that people write his name with reverence - okay, I can see images of his name in writing illustrating the subject matter of the article. But an image of his face? Why? How? Can you explain it? And really, educational psychologists have demonstrated the benefits of providing an illustration of Muhammed´s face? PLEASE provide me with the citation to that study. The article already had plenty of illustrations, no one is arguing against illustrations in general. The question is, what is an appropriate illustration i.e. one that further conveys an important point in the article? Slrubenstein | Talk 22:52, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
I am not being tendentious - is this how you respond to anyone who asks you to justify your position? I iimagine you spend much of your time with people who think as you do so you never have to justify your views. Guess what: you have now encountered someone new, who does not accept unquestioningly your own beliefs. Pictures are not always appropriate. It depends on the subject matter. Itsmejudith provided a rational explanation for how o illustrate this article, So far you have not. Please, lket's be rational. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:08, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Now that's an explanation that makes sense to me, it is well-reasoned. Sounds good to me! Why is it that the people who disagree with you, Itsmejudith, cannot offer any rational explanations for their views? What is important here is to act rationally; thank you for presnting a rational proposal. Slrubenstein | Talk 22:55, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Says you. For many people in the world pictures are irrelevant to portraying a person. A person is portrayed through stories about him or her. You have your won POV approach to what makes a name a person, and it is not shared by all. This is Wikipedia and you need to work within a framework where your own beliefs are not necesarily shared by others, and you need to be able to work with others who are different from you. You do not own this space. This means you must be held accountable. I have asked for a satisfying reason why a portrait of Muhammed is necessary and have yet to receive one. So far only Itsmejudith has provided a reational answer. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:05, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
So several good reasons have been given and I just ignore them? Really? And what are these so-called reasons? So far I just see irrational dogmatism. So farf all he so-called reasons boil down to "qarticles about people must have pictures about people" but this is kind of circular reasoning that goes nowhere. And I am NLT closed minded. I will give you a good reason for including a picture of Muhammed: IF how he looked were of some importance historically or culturally that would justify including a potrait. But no one has argued this and I do not think it is the case. Anyway, get hysterical, obviously you are used to bulying yoru way and not used to having to justify yourselves. Sorry, hee you Do have to provide a rational explanation. It isn't even clear to me why you think this matters! Slrubenstein | Talk 23:26, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
This seems to be a non'sequitor. But I will assume good faith that maybe you have a valid reaoson for asking. Is this your only objection to my postion? I won´t bother answering it unless I first know what difference if any my answer will make. I don´t feel like playing games. I want to know if this is a serious question and what the consequences of my answer could be. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:52, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
No. This talk page is for discussing improvements to the Muhammad article. I do not see how talking about Alfred the Great is necessary to improve this article, which is why I think your asking the question is playing a game. I admit I may be wrong! But I need you to explain it to me. How would discussing the Alfred the Great article help us improve this article? To be clear, what I mean is this: How would my answer to your question about Alfred the Great make any difference here? Slrubenstein | Talk 18:44, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
I repeat: this page is for discussing improvements to the Muhammad article. Not the Jesus or the Buddha article Slrubenstein | Talk 01:22, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
From what I have read, the objection to a drawing, painting, sculpture of Muhammad seems to be that there is no life image of him (please correct me if I'm wrong). The counter-argument seems to be that there are no, or few, life images of Jesus of Nazareth, Buddha, Zoroaster, Moses or any of the other great figures of religion. But I suspect a religious motivation too, if I can read between the lines. Religious sentiment should not be a consideration. Now given Islamic tradition it would be small wonder that there wasn't a true image of the Prophet. So any full facial portraits of the prophet are going to be Western. So a case can be made for a traditional Islamic representation, just as images of Jesus are usually traditional Western images or images of Buddha are traditionally Asian images. Wasn't he traditionally portrayed in a veil or a halo? Perhaps such an image could be inserted?-- Gazzster ( talk) 02:00, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Very interesting. I have often thought that, in the West, convention is a sort of idol that stops people thinking outside the box. And convention is the god of Wikipedia. I believe Wikipedia is a tool to stop people thinking, not to encourage it. Why am I still here? I just love the stimulation, I guess. And yes, I agree-why should a western convention dominate an article about a non-Western figure? Thank you, I am learning a lot from our exchanges. I think I'd agree with you now. Tell me though, the veil and halo thing? What do you think of that?-- Gazzster ( talk) 02:26, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
I must say that the above is very instructive. User:Slrubenstein and User:Itsmejudith make valid points and ask for reasons. None are given but are replied with vague sophistries, evasions, and ideological triumphalism. Allow me to make a couple of points: 1) There are two illustrations on the page that are completely unproblematic for many Muslims. One is calligraphy, the other is an illustration of Muhammad with his face veiled. So, the issue isn't for Muslims all illustrations but of specific ones. 2) The illustrations in question do not follow the descriptions of Muhammad in hadith nor do they date from any time remotely near his life. They thus add nothing to anyone's knowledge base. 3) The false issue that no one has any problem with using modern fantasy illustrations of medieval figures (such as Alfred the Great raised by User:TharkunColl is completely bogus. He raised it before; I answered him that, yes, those are problematic as they also do nothing for adding knowledge. I even attempted to add a tag to that article ... so his claim is utterly baseless and deceitful and he is fully aware of that. If one wishes to fix up the Alfred the Great article, why not add illustrations of the Alfred Jewel or of his coinage (like this http://www.pewterreplicas.co.uk/second%20site%20pictures/alfred%20the%20great%20coins.jpg )? 4) TharkunColl and other users on this page claim that removing the pictures of Muhammad that are problematic means giving in to a religious POV. Perhaps.
But ... LEAVING THEM UP DOES JUST THE SAME! There IS an ideology (as promoted by people like Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens amongst others) that demands deliberately offending the religious (of all religions) as part of its own goals - a sort of militant Atheism, hostile to all theistic religions. And leaving up the pictures is very much Appeasement of that ideology. So, it's not a decision between 'freedom of speech' and 'censorship' but between actual knowledge and working towards a global consensus on one side and a militant ideology trying to foment anger on the other. Aliibn ( talk) 23:36, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
whatever Muslims say or think or whatever the facts in the matter, it doesn't matter.
I am Muslim, and I've already explained that the real prohibition is against worshiping pictures, not against pictures themselves. I might be more sympathetic to fellow Muslims if they had a valid point but they don't. So I for one wouldn't remove the pictures simply because it's only reinforcing bad theology. Aside from secular issues of censorship. - Bikinibomb ( talk) 23:45, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
You are the ever wiser and most reasonable one in this discussion, as you've clearly demonstrated. Reason and logic are strong in you; they let you penetrate through the veils of simple minded illusions cast upon we lesser folk. And you are far better educated and capable of research than any of us simple-minded believers (especially those from lesser breeds) so, I'm sure you can decipher such on your own. Cheers! Aliibn ( talk) 00:16, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Is this conversation actually going anywhere? Look if you find the pictures offensive don't look at them but Wikipedia is for everyone so let us have access to the pictures. No one is being forced to look at this article after all. 00:30, 2 January 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Theresa knott ( talk • contribs)
Above, Bikinibomb writes "I am Muslim, and I've already explained that the real prohibition is against worshiping pictures, not against pictures themselves." But I am not a Muslim, and have made it clear that I object to including a picture of Muhammad on non-religious grounds. Since we now have one Muslim who does not object, and a non-Muslim who does object, I think we can now safely abandon the claim that excluding an image of Muhammad is a form of dogmatic religious censorship!!! Abandoning that red-herring, maybe we can have a more reasonable discussion. That said, I have one other important and constructive suggestion: let us have an end with TharkunColl's arguments involving "all the countless thousands of other medieval person's articles." His/her comments - at least along this specific line - are examples of WP:DIS and [[WP:POINT] because the purpose of this talk page is to discuss improvemenst to this article. Widening the discussion to "countless thousands of other ... articles" is an obvious disruption of this talk page. Not only is it simply inappropriate, it is obviously impractical - if we widen this discussion to include thousands of other articles we will never reach a resolution. We make improvements by focusing on the article we are trying to improve, not other articles. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:53, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
You are wrong. The purpose of this talk page is to discuss improvements to this article. It is not for discussing improvements to other articles. If you want to discuss an improvement to another article, we should do it on the talk page of the other article. And I repeat: My objection to the depiction is not based on my being muslim and it is neither religious nor cultural. But I have already explained my reasoning, at length, at leaast twice, above. We could discuss my objections to including an image, and reasons for including an image, in this article. But you and others repeatedly prefer to discuss other articles. this should a serious absense of good faith and disruptive editing. Slrubenstein | Talk 22:59, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
I haven't been following this talk page very long, but please allow me to comment. Now it is true that Islam has been one of the most misunderstood and maligned religions in the West for the past 1500 years. In a forum like this we ought to show respect for the religious sentiments of others. But as for encyclopedic content we conduct ourselves by academic standards. Religious sensitivities just don't come into it. The sentiments of those who profess one particular creed shouldn't be seen to be deserving of greater respect than those of other creeds. Now TharkunColl's comment was definitely out of line, and he has been blocked for it. But he might not have been given occasion to make it if editors hadn't made religion an issue in the first place.-- Gazzster ( talk) 23:47, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
A wise, balanced comment Wily.-- Gazzster ( talk) 00:37, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
To reply to WilyD, perhaps we have a misunderstanding. My accusation of a lack of good faith is explicitly aimed at those who have argued that we cannot decide this question concerning this article without considering "countless thouseands" of other articles, which is patently absurd and inconsistent with Wikipedia policy. I strongly object to a cookie-cutter, one-size-fits-all approach to articles. But if I may assume good faith on your part, WilyD, I think you are now raising a slightly different issue which is that how we respolve questions concerning one encyclopedia article ought to be based on principles that could apply to other encyclopedia articles. If this is what you mean to say I agree 100%. But I think there is a world of difference between sahying that we should apply principles that could apply to other encyclopedia articles, and saying that we should follow the exact same practice on all articles. Now, please do me the favor of reading my original comment in the section above. It is my first comment on this page, and my first comment on this topic. I believe that I framed my reasoning in a way that assumed or proposed a principle that could be applied to all encyclopedia articles. if this is not clear to you I would ask that you read my second comment. I sincerely hope my first and second comments make my position clear. I want to emphasize that while I oppose including an image of Muhammad here, it is based on a general principle I would apply to any Wikipedia article. I hope in this regard WilyD you and I can agree.
A final point: someone challenged my good faith and credibility by asserting that I would reject any argument for including an image of Muhammed. this was a scurilous accusation, in fact a pathetically defensive tactic since I was in fact asking people to provide rationales for including Muhammed's image, and no one could provide me with one. I can now say that C. Logan has provided what I consider a reasonable argument for including an image of Muhammed int he article and I thank him for it. I happen still to disagree, but people in good faith can disagree. At least he took the time to provide a reason. This shows more respect for Wikipedia and this article than some of the other people who have been commenting on this page. Slrubenstein | Talk 01:37, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Well, I do think you raise an important point. However, I still don't support adding images here. What I would propose (though some Muslims may really object) would be an article specifically on figurative representations of Muhammed, and theological or legal debates over images of Muhammed. In the context of such an article the image to which you refer would be very importand indeed - part of the article would be art-historical, perhaps exploring how different images of Muhammed reflect changes in Islamic culture or views of Muhammed. I think this would be a very interesting article and yes, the earliest known image of Muhammed would indeed have great hiswtorical value. My point is, it would have value for an article on the history of images in Islam, not on the life and teachings of Muhammed, if this makes sense. Slrubenstein | Talk 01:53, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Okay - thank you! Slrubenstein | Talk 02:08, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Thank you! I did not know about this. It is interesting, but underdeveloped - Bikinbomb, perhaps you would be well-suited to begin an improvement drive? Slrubenstein | Talk 02:40, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
In the mediation from a while back myself and some others basically argued that although a depiction may have been warranted, 4-5 was overkill, especially when having them positioned prominently in the article. I still think that. I think the aim of showing how tradition (although most, if not all it surrounds the Shi'ite Safawid era) has depicted Muhammad can be achieved through one or two such images, in a section such as Muhammad#Depictions_of_Muhammad. ITAQALLAH 22:22, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
i read FAQ and so Wikimapia use false images.. Images are put to prove/clearify topics/articles not just DECORATIONS
so the images are not proved (cant be prove) to be Mohammed (pbuh) and there are alot of pictures that can be used instead instead(his grave picture,his cloth..ect)
Knowing its offensive is something to consider and that doesnt make you unprofessional if you remove the pics and put others pics proven/used
and if you really wants to mentain the neutral point of view then you should use the right pitures respecting all people .
i really hope you can be more open minded about it and use real pictures of current items(left) instead of some unknown drawings of unknown people..
Glassflowers ( talk) 22:33, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Hi... May I edit this article? There are some things left out. and can u contact me on my page so that I know when you do? Thx.-- CherryBlossom93 ( talk) 01:54, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
The only way, to do this is a) write or contact heads of muslim countries requesting they block wikipedia as it contains offensive articles on the prophet Muhammed. This can easily be organised just through the muslims who have requested pictures removed from this article, after all they come from many countries b)Initiate a media campaign , saying Wikipedia deliberately insults Islam
I know many internet providers currently block offensive Wikipedia articles in various countries
Alternatively you can do your best to knock wikipedias article of Muhammed(pbuh) of the top spot in google searches by promoting the muslimwiki articles on Muhammed (pbuh)
Asking a US centric bunch of contributers to do you a favour is not going to happen —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.86.223.147 ( talk) 11:32, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
I hope the editors of wikipedia will delete that image because it does not illustrate anything in the article of Mohammad pbuh. If you really need to put an illustration , there are hundreds of useful illustrations that suit this article without offending Muslims all round the earth.
If you want to reply to me and claim that you have your own rules or regulations , then please have a look at this rule : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IAR
If you like us to provide the article with more info about our prophet mohammad, please let us know, and we will be happy to provide you with great more details about him. There are tens of certified resources about our lovely prophet Mohammad, regards, Ala' Alsallal —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.173.241.173 ( talk) 18:23, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Images can serve a historical importance and certain ones (e.g. the earliest recorded depiction) would be valuable to an article. However, as it stands, including 3-4+ images seems as though it is being done with the intent to spite Muslims, not because it necessarily contributes to the article, particularly since visuals of Muhammad have rarely been used to depict him in the first place. Including images that contribute nothing simply because that would be Wikipedian procedure comes across as somewhat of an intellectual imperialism; there have been similar discussions about this on articles like Humanities, which fail to provide a worldwide view for that very reason. The Humanities article does not give a worldwide view because philosophies that pertain to Humanism and the divisions between the spiritual and the earthly are, in essence, a European phenomenon. Although India, the Middle East, and China all had complex civilizations which were, for most of history, equally, if not more technologically advanced than the West (pretty much until the end of the 16th century), the East never made a similar, lasting distinction between the Earth and the Heavens. For that reason, putting Sufi philosophy in an article on Humanities, for example, would be defining a non-Western phenomonenon in terms that are alien, if that makes sense. And as it has already been discussed there, it amounts to intellectual imperialism (meaning that Non-Western ways to classify things are intrinsically inferior, therefore they should be discarded and all articles, even if they are on non-Western thought, must conform to Western classifications and standards).
Similarly, an article on Muhammad should not necessarily be defined solely on Western terms; Muhammad is, after all, not a Westerner and those that documented most of his life rarely, if ever, depicted him. So with that said, I think one or two images could serve a purpose; I think placing images of him in this page for no reason other than to put them there is going to naturally come off as though these pictures are being added maliciously to spite Muslim sensitivities "because we can," whether or not it is true. Moreover, it appears as though there are more images of Muhammad than there are traditional Muslim forms of depiction, which then poses the question of undue weight and POV editing. - Rosywounds ( talk) 20:54, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Please re-read my statement. I did not say all of the images should be removed; however, it is quite bizarre that an article on Muhammad would have more Western-oriented depictions than Middle Eastern ones. Arabesques, geometric art, and calligraphy have been the dominant art forms used within the Muslim world, particularly when it comes to depictions of Muhammad. While I don't necessarily think all of the images should go, it does seem like intellectual imperialism to make this article primarily Western oriented even though it is based on a non-Western man. The Humanities article, for example, also does not conform to a world view, since the Humanities are essentially a Western subject. Other cultures have had philosophy, science, and art, but they have never defined or classified them in the Western style. For that reason, they are not included in depth in that article. Similarly, Muhammad is traditionally not necessarily depicted in the way that Jesus is depicted in Europe or Buddha is depicted in East Asia; it seems odd to give undue weight to Western-oriented images that represent an overwhelming minority of the depictions available. Moreover, the article on Jesus does not include a single non-European depiction of Jesus (and the Jesus article is almost FA!). I didn't say all of the images should be removed; I simply think that it is odd for there to be almost as many, if not more, actual depictions than there are calligraphic images.
The long article needs images to "add flow" is a very weak argument, IMO. In the first six sections alone, for example, there are three images of Muhammad, and only one piece of calligraphic art. I could probably find at least 10-20 times as much calligraphy than I can actual depictions (since that is how he is depicted within every single mosque), so that certainly is undue weight for the Western perspective, and that is why I feel as though it looks like intellectual imperialism. - Rosywounds ( talk) 06:13, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Correct. Music is only rejected by Wahhabis and Salafis. However, 85% of the current Muslim world is Sunni and, prior to the Safavid Empire, it was close to 100% of the Muslim world. Every major school of Sunni Islam is opposed to iconography. Yet, calligraphic images are underrepresented. Catering to a minority view by loading the page with nontraditional images is a POV edit, IMO. None of the images were made in the West, but they are nontraditional images that conform more so with Western religious art than traditional Muslim art. As I said, the fact that three out of the first four images of Muhammad are all nontraditional suggests that this article is biased against traditional Muslim depictions. Similar articles (e.g. Jesus) do not provide any nontraditional depictions whatsoever. Certainly one image, maybe two, could serve a purpose here. Adding them for the sake of adding them seems reckless; adding them for the sake of "avoiding censorship" is simply nonsense. - Rosywounds ( talk) 06:39, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
For example, if placed next to the "depictions" section, they would actually be relevant. Also, location expresses significance. Funkynusayri ( talk) 07:49, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Yes, but on those pages, the images are relevant to the text next to them (picture as a youth next to the "early life" section, etc). The ones in this article aren't, they just seem to have been randomly thrown in there. They could of course be moved further down to fitting texts. I'll do it if no one minds. Funkynusayri ( talk) 22:45, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
plz remove that picture from mohammed page or it add to the artist page. Emmanzur ( talk) 09:13, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
How about having a number of 'images' of Muhammed? A calligraphic image, which we already have. A traditional Islamic image, Persian, Ottoman, whatever, and a Western image? I think that could be quite enlightening to make a comparison.-- Gazzster ( talk) 10:51, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
Yet there is another image under the etymology section, which is irrelevant to the text next to it, and which furthermore screws up the layout. Such images should be moved down to the sections they actually illustrate, like on all other pages, see Jesus as example. Funkynusayri ( talk) 17:29, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
well, we all know that encylopedias must only include validated data, information, images, diagrams, etc.. but here on this "Encylopedia" they dont do that.. then how can we trust their articles and the data they provide on this website ?..
what wikipedia did is that they (those who run it) added a picture claiming that is belongs to the prophet Muhammad peace upon him, but where is there proof?! have they really seen him and validated it? what also puzzles me that they have two pictures claiming that they are of the prophet, but the funny thing is that they dont even match... so how can the same person have two different looks?!
what i want is that, they either validate the truthfullness of their information and validate it, so that its accurate. or simply dont add images, dates, diagrams that they cant be sure if its right or not...
if they fail to do that, and they still keep those images which i find is weird then how can we trust the other articles they have.. to support my point, i am studying in one of the most prestigious universities in the world, and when i prepare my reports the inctructors (non muslims), dont allow us to use wikipedia as a trusted source.
now, adding to that all the approved laws in the united states and the laws passed to organize the internet, prevent the release of contents that might be abusive to others, and this policey is maintained in all respected websites. so, all we are asking is to bind to the law, authenticate your data and remove any abusive content.
a person might argue that these pictures are not abusive. Well, as a reply to that, a person that is not a muslim might fail to see the harm of these pictures, but we cant rely his point of view because he simply doesnt know Islam and doesnt know what is abusive adn what is not to muslims, and their prophet. what must be done to know if these pictures are abusive to muslims or not, is to simply ask a muslim. To help wikipedia ask muslims, a petition was formed signed by 40 thousand muslims and adding agreeing that they find this picture is abusive to all muslims.
so, as these pictures remain on this website i come to two conclusions. 1) that Wikipedia cant be trusted as a real source of valid information or as an encylopedia because they have unvalid and wrong information in their articles. so as a user how can i know which article has good information and which dont.. simply i cant. 2) Wikipedia, doesnt bind to the law of united states, united nations and the laws passed to regulate the usage of the internet, as they are publishing on their website a content that is agreed by thousands of muslims as abusive to their religion and believes. in other words.
I hope this will change soon. and our points be taken into considerations.
just a last remark, someone might argue that this is a freedom of speech. But we all agree that a freedom of speech must not cause harm to a group of people.
THE IRONY, IS THAT AT THE BUTTON OF THIS PAGE, WIKIPEDIA OFFICIALS WRORTE "ENCYLOPEDIC CONTENT MUST BE VERIFIABLE". how did they verify that those images are really of the prophet Muhamad, keeping in mind that they are putting two different images of the same person. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.64.53.178 ( talk) 15:30, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
i will give more explanations to my points... soon. 1 7 21:48, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Sir , request you to remove this picutre as this hurts the sentiments of Muslims. We have great respect for Wikipedia, but this should not be abused in the name of freedom.
regards
Hussaine
Ok, please try voting here, it's only voting to say yes remove these pictures from Wikipeda, this vote for muslims only who want to remove these pictures, just if clicked here, this mean you are agree to remove the pictures. and this will increment a counter. for more transparency, please every muslim to vote once time.
Vote please here: [3] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.135.9.86 ( talk) 22:49, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Someone could just reload that page all day and increase the count, so that vote doesn't really indicate anything valid. - Bikinibomb ( talk) 23:31, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
So that, asking every muslim to vote once time. or suggest to embed a real voting here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.135.9.86 ( talk) 23:54, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
so, if consensus and democracy mean anything, it should be ... http://www.thepetitionsite.com/2/removal-of-the-pics-of-muhammad-from-wikipedia
or are only opinions of westerners allowed to matter here?
Aliibn (
talk)
16:54, 29 December 2007 (UTC) —
Aliibn (
talk •
contribs) has made
few or no other edits outside this topic.
Wikipedia is an encyclopedia written from an outside perspective; it is not written for any specific audience, nor is it written from the perspective of a Muslim. As mentioned above, we do not vote or petition at Wikipedia; there are no referendums at Wikipedia. Things placed on Wikipedia are (ideally) factual, unbiased, uncensored, and informative, even if they are potentially offensive or hypersensitive. It is unfortunate that pictures of Muhammad have offended many Muslims, but this topic has already been discussed thoroughly and these threads are becoming redundant. It should be noted, however, that Shiites often times do, in fact, depict Muhammad and (more commonly) Imam Hussein. The view that Muhammad should be free of any depiction, thus, is a sectarian issue; it is not even a universal position throughout Islam. Even if it were, the fact of the matter still remains: Wikipedia does not censor and Wikipedia is not a democracy. I do not know whether or not it is a violation of censorship policy, but perhaps we could include a warning of these images at the top of the page on Muhammad? This is becoming nauseating. Regardless, the notion that we are going to adhere to Islamic taboos, as already mentioned, is out of the question. - Rosywounds ( talk) 18:20, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Dear, it is not a matter of democracy, it is a matter of respect, and love. as muslims we love him more than we love ourselves, and so we cannot accept any behaviour that is against his teachings. would it be democracy to put your naked mother image on wiki ? will you be happy ? this behaviour for muslims means the same of that behaviour to anybody who respects and loves his mother. Neutrality of Wikipedia requires to be neutral, if we feel that it is against our religion we talk, otherwise nobody have the right to talk. Please show some respect. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bashar shboul ( talk • contribs) 09:48, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
what is with that all the power and control of the english wikipedia editors...just make a very simple vote and all of us will know what shuold be done 41.235.129.205 ( talk) 17:29, 11 January 2008 (UTC) .
.
What I fail to understand is why the writers of this article are making a fuss out of it all.Why cant you just refer the names of the books that contains the images and get it off your back.And write over there why the images were removed.Whoever is so adamant to see Muhammad's pictures would do it on his own damn self.
Stop making more mess, as if we all are already not in a mess of dictating other peoples life and countries and now in this instance their religion.
71.238.39.86 (
talk)
16:07, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
About the images attched here in this geat article, first, I need a proof that Al-Bīrūnī is the owner of the picture attached, I can't blieve that he draw it anyway.
I ask to remove these pictures anyway; because democracy dosn't mean anything here. we are Muslims all rejecting these pictures, we don't need it,
would it be democracy to put your naked mother image on wiki ? will you be happy ? this behaviour for muslims means the same of that behaviour to anybody who respects and loves his mother'.
To prove the democracy here, I agree with making a vote to remove these picture, in the condition that Muslims only who asked to vote...'''' ==
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
Muslims strongly believe that Muhammad (peace be upon him)is the last messenger of Allah, all mighty. No one is allowed to make pics of Muhammad (peace be upon him)or make any sketch that relates to Muhammad (peace be upon him) (No, Muslims aren't allowed). It is humbly requested to remove these pictures from the article as it can cause serious reactions from the muslim community. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Atifgil ( talk • contribs) 09:36, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
I think that pictures should be removed instantly because they are offensive to
Islam and to
Muslims. Besides, whpever wrote the article should be a Muslim expert or at least a muslim for that matter! I strongly suggest the pictures showing our beloved Prophet Muhammad's face must be removed. If a strong-powered Muslim defender sees this article, there might be some problems that will face Wikipedia and its owners. This is not a threat! This is a something to make you think of what may happen if these pictures are kept on the article further more. Please keep this in mind, and I hope you remove them as fast as possible. -
Simsimtigger 28 September 2007 —Preceding
signed but undated comment was added at
14:46, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
I strongly suggest removing the facial pics of Muhammad (PBUH), it is strongly against faith to see his face since it can never be accurately depicted. Thank you :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.68.48.48 ( talk) 00:48, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Yes, Please Remove the Facial Picuture of Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H), and respect all religions..... —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Zarmaan (
talk •
contribs)
09:13, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
I haven't seen anywhere in quran that says "don't show pics of prophet muhammad".That is made up after him
In Alhadeth Alsharef (prophet Mohammed sayings) sketching pictures is prohibited, it's like matching Allah creations. Please respect Islam and remove the pictures.
just remove these pictures ok!-- Mohammad ka ( talk) 00:31, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
With reference to the discussion about pictures depicting the Prophet (PBUH) below, I'm sure that all of my fellow Wiki-users will admit to the fact that the Wiki foundation really does a lot of homework & that in Wiki's process of letting the masses access such information without any hindrances, they have to let go of certain rules which may openly flout Islamic teachings/ law. One of the pillars of Islam which form what Muslims call 'Iman' is 'Shahadah' or in other words, Muslims all over the world testify to the fact that there is no other God than Allah & that The Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is his Messenger. It vehemently condemns & prescribes severe punishment for those Muslims who associate anything/anyone with Allah. It also strictly forbids the reproduction/creation of any live creatures created by the Almighty. Now, when we talk about a Muslim's, let alone the Prophet's pictures being taken, created & distributed, it can be plainly termed 'haraam'. One must try & understand that the Prophet had the same restrictions/freedom as a normal Muslim had & has till date. As per a user's comment that tomorrow, a Muslim might claim that pork is forbidden in Islam & that they might request removal of pictures depicting swines from the Wiki pages. My friend, Muslims are forbidden from consuming pork & not viewing them through what we call 'eyes' , bestowed by the Almighty. Any questions on the above is welcomed.
I would also like to add, if this page is ever unprotected, please include a disclaimer that would hold individuals who edit information otherwise not included in this article by Wikipedia or any other allied subsidiary/partner, for the authenticity of the information that they append. For the general public: Please try to understand that any wrong facts stated herein may hurt people of various religions - Christians, Muslims & Jews and all others that follow the same ideology. —Preceding unsigned comment added by M.mzq ( talk • contribs) 20:10, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
I think that what is needed is an analysis of why these pictures are justified and included. Images of the Prophet is a special case and deserves more than just a simple statement of consensus since I think it is safe to say that Islam is underrepresented among Wikipedia editors. There are many examples of major mainstream media observing this practice of avoiding images of the Prophet or his immediate family members. Is it too much to ask that a coherent statement be composed so that those who do not prevail can be referred to some coherent statement of judgment? If such a statement were coherent and fairly comprehensive, I expect that such a statement would go a long way towards building a genuine consensus and mutual understanding.-- Createinfo2 21:46, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia is encycolpedic, and will not show favortism to any religion. For example, if we removed the images of Muhammad, then that would be showing favortism to Islam over Christianity because we still show images of Jesus. But if we removed all images of Muhammed and Jesus, then we will be showing favoritism to other religions like Buddhism by showing images of Buddha. And if we remove all images of Muhammed, Jesus, and Buddha, then we would be showing favoritism to Islam and Christianity, because images of Buddha are very important to Buddhist. You can see that we have no choice but to uphold the Wikipedia policy of showing depictions of all subjects of a biography article. -- MahaPanta ( talk) 21:54, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
In the Name of God, the Beneficient, the Merciful Excellence Belongs to GOD As Salaam Alaikum and peace be upon all of you who view this article. I am writing as a concernced human being and a concerned striving Muslim. These pictures are a defamation to humanity, Islam and Muhammad(SAW). It was previously addressed to remove the pictures but No attention has been given to this Great Concern. We kindly ask both pictures be removed, due to the fact that it is strongly fordidden in Christianity, Islam, and Judaism. Pictures of true messengers and servants of GOD create barriers, SUPERIORITY COMPLEXES, stereotypes, and many other vices that hinders one's perception of truth and justice. We all know history and seen what false images of the prophets have done to the minds of billions of people. Please honor this request. All PRAISE is for God, creator of all creation wa salaam alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh and peace be with you all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.188.43.1 ( talk) 18:44, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Please: remove the alleged images of the Prophet! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.87.183.204 ( talk) 12:13, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
No. And please read to top of the page were it clearly states that any requests to remove images of the prophet will be ignored/deleted. ( Butters x 11:11, 16 November 2007 (UTC))
The point is why to pick up so many pictures of Prophet Muhammad painted or drawn while this is highly controversial and no real picture of him. Does saying that articles that have grown have pictures mean that you post the Danish cartoons as well. That means you should post all the objectionable pictures pertaining to Judaism and Christianity as well. Honestly reply.-- Muneeb smw ( talk) 18:31, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
If we were doing an article about negative cartoon depictions of religious figures then yes I would say that we should post those. However, the depictions (or rather depiction since I think at this point there's only one) of Muhammad in the article is a legitimate image of historical, cultural, and religious value to someone trying to understand the disparate viewpoints in Islam and how the Islamic religion has viewed its most important figure. Therefore it can, will, and should be included in this article. This is not an insult its just the way wikipedia works. RecentlyAnon ( talk) 17:47, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
I wouldn't repeat what has been said before about removing those offensive Pictures...I just want you to know about http://www.thepetitionsite.com/2/removal-of-the-pics-of-muhammad-from-wikipedia#signatures those 13600+ and counting who voted for the removal...so where are the people who what the pictures to be published????????
Wikipedia does not function by snout-counting. We have rules, the number of people who want something to be removed is irrelevant if the rules say it should stay. We operate by consensus but this isn't a democracy. Again the images aren't meant as an insult you have to realize that the whole world doesn't live or function according to the laws of any one sect or religion. RecentlyAnon ( talk) 19:45, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
Actually, in Islam it's a sin to show or draw pictures of prophets, the Wikipedia staff should understand and respect this, so please, remove the pics which "show" the prophet mohammad (peace be upon him), and at least "unlock" the page so we can do this ourselfs. 84.235.26.248 ( talk) 12:27, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Good Morning.
It would be very considerate and kind of you, if you could remove all the Illustrations depicting Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W S.A.W S.A.W) that you have included in your article.
I very much appreciate that you are very respectful in the development of this article, and I believe that by you being kind enough to remove the illustrations I am refering to, would be a gesture of further respect towards Islam.
I came to this article with much happiness, but as soon as I saw the illustrations, I had no alternative but to leave. It is for this reason that I have not even been able to read the atricle yet.
At the end of the day, you are writing an article related to Islam, and you should be considerate towards the teachings of Islam and feelings of the believers.
By removing the Illustrations, you will not be making the article incomplete - it does not make any difference to this article if the illustrations are not there.
In Islam we know that Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W S.A.W S.A.W) has no shadow, no photograph or portrait was ever made of Him, and the same goes for any illustrations. Therefore, HOW can you put illustrations that have no authenticity?
Warmest Regards. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.216.65.57 ( talk) 15:39, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for being so polite. But were still not going to listen to you. ( Butters x ( talk) 20:29, 27 November 2007 (UTC))
Please see the replies above and do not create new sections. Thank you. clicketyclick yaketyyak 09:30, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
This issue has been brought up before in [2] as well. petedavo ( talk) 05:04, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
we as Muslims have not received any picture of our prophet, unlike christians for example, they have drawings of Jesus in every Church, so please do not compare us to christians, it's not acceptable at all to show these pictures, no human being will ever be able to copy Muhammed, even these pictures are historically recorded, but still can not be used in the difinition of Muhammed, please understand this, many non muslim will visit this page we do not want them to see Islam this way, we want to show the true Islam, and in true Islam we do not have any pictures of Muhammed.
if you go to the Arabic version of Wiki and see Muhammed's page you will not find any picture! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Abboodeh ( talk • contribs) 02:45, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Maybe we should add some, or are the rules different for the Arabic wikipedia? If they are that's nifty but the rules here say that we include images in biographies and that we don't cater to specific religions. RecentlyAnon ( talk) 00:15, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
wikipedia says "some articles may include objectionable text, images, or links if they are relevant to the content (such as the articles about the penis and pornography) and do not violate any of our existing policies (especially neutral point of view)", this is good, but what about the correctness of information.putting these illustrations of prophet MUHAMMAD (PBUH) gives a wrong information that muslims have drawings of prophet MUHAMMAD (PBUH) which is not true. so you have to remove the pictures containing the illustrations or if you didn't do that, then a least make a clarification or qoute or add another section saying that the image is not true and in islam it is prevented to draw prophet MUHAMMAD (PBUH) and no one made a copy of him. this is if wikipedia do care about the correctness of information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nagibcs ( talk • contribs) 12:53, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Images posted are totally irrelevant to the article,wrongly quoted,and fake,they are not medieval ages pictures and have no relevancy to the article.Stop using wikipedia to set your personal scores. I am removing them..IF you have any doubts,please discuss on this page
I'm sorry if I wrote in the wrong place.. But I totally agree that some of the pictures are fake and I wish someone can remove it.. I tried to search for someone who have the authority to do so but I don't know who to contact.
Alkami.h ( talk) 14:21, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm sure that there's a reason since it's been like this since February, but why has the second picture been stretched to show only the Kaʿbah instead of the Kaʿbah and a veiled Muhammad as the caption describes? Rdr0 ( talk) 04:30, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
I think the topic of removal Illustrations of Muhammad(PBUH) has gone to long and we should finish it with making a new topic and change then name of this topic "History about Muhammad" if admins of wikipdia want to keep these illustrations, as every body knows that almost all illustrations comes from Shi'a branch of Islam that is a small minority and majority of them are also against this illustrations. because this article is part of "Series on Islam" that mean every reader will think that it represent Islam but in reality it is not! we can place a link for such thing in also read or all positions where current illustrations are. I know these Illustrations are reality but that is bad reality and we should not hide it but try to contain it with proper care just like nuclear wast.
-- Faraz Ahmad ( talk) 04:49, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
thanks for that that answer my one query but second query is still there i am backing by request with a petition [ click to see Petition], I am also against censor but still book are rated. -- Faraz Ahmad ( talk) 05:02, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
They would really enrich the encyclopedic experience. -- NEMT ( talk) 22:17, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
please remove the pictures that show prophet mohamed's face,these pics are offensive to us as muslems,in this page you can find more than 14,000 signatures from people demanding the removal of these pictures
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/2/removal-of-the-pics-of-muhammad-from-wikipedia —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kashwaa ( talk • contribs) 01:22, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
please remove the pic for mohamed this pic too bad —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.71.37.61 ( talk) 02:30, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Please remove all photos refer to our prophet Muhammed.
Everybody should respect our religion.
these phots are not accepted —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.187.13.60 ( talk) 05:21, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not censored. Your superstition is not an acceptable reason to degrade the quality of wikipedia articles. If you're offended by images of muhammad you are not obligated to view them. I suggest you use Muslim Wiki instead. -- NEMT ( talk) 07:19, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Dear Wikipedia, Please remove all refer to our prophet Muhamed. This act is not acceptable at all. Please respect religions, Wikipedia is a good encyclopedia and we respect its site, and we expect that Wikipedia doing the same. thanks in advance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Amirag ( talk • contribs) 05:49, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Please remove all photos refer to our prophet Muhammed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.233.221.243 ( talk) 08:49, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
dear sir I AM REFUSE TO BUT PICTURE TO OUR Prophet MOHAMED IN YOUR PAGES PLEASA REMOVE IT
AHMED —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.36.128.243 ( talk) 09:30, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Please remove all photos refer to our prophet Muhammed —Preceding unsigned comment added by Emmanzur ( talk • contribs) 14:17, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
-- Faraz Ahmad ( talk) 04:42, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Nobody said it's an Islamic Encyclopedia; however, it doesn't need to be Islamic to respect Islam, and it doesn't need to be Chrestian to respect Chrestianity. Sir, the matter of respect is not tied to certain religion. If you feel that the encyclopedia is hurting Chrestians in any way, it's your full right to express that and request to change it.
What I want to say here is that such pictures for Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) do really hurt all Muslims all over the world. And if this encyclopedia really aims at being the most popular, reliable, and neutral one, it should care about the feelings and beliefs of 1/6 of the world popluation. Ossama Rashed ( talk) 07:46, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
we must remove it NOW .. please remove that picture, it is not allowed for us to put such things..
@ Matt57: Because of your personal experience you are tended to be anti. there are some issues that are not mention in policies. and you people are also not following them by pushing your agenda.-- Faraz Ahmad ( talk) 07:01, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Wait Wait, Did I *JUST* hear somebody say 'its an undisputed fact that muhammed is the greatest person in history'? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.218.222.194 ( talk) 03:57, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
i am sorry
Thanks a lot for hearing us and also for your patience and our conversation is only just a view we Leaves to you Freedom Disposition and a Freedom discretion about it .. but we hope to remove it and finally thanks again .
I has created an Arbitration request this topic so top level administration in Wikipedia can be involved in this sensitive topic. you can see that can contribute in so your opinion can count
Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Muhammad
--
Faraz Ahmad (
talk)
03:18, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
then we can decide what is the line of devide
--
Faraz Ahmad (
talk)
04:51, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
thanks Matt57 for that reference it reads "The issue surrounding depictions of Muhammad on Wikipedia has been of considerable dispute. Some users argue that such images which may be highly inflammatory to some Muslim readers should not be used, or should be used lightly at the very least. Others disagree with this sentiment on the basis that Wikipedia is not censored and that the images are acceptable as they don't offend "typical" Wikipedia readers." its says some Muslims but in reality all Muslims do and they are over a Billion in this world. i did not say that to oppress others but pinpoint where these statements are faulty and misrepresent facts. but i can see the result of that pole clearly -- Faraz Ahmad ( talk) 05:01, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
"i regard this as a cyber crusade" ...do we really need to hear anything else? -- NEMT ( talk) 07:46, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Please, it's not our discussion. As a professional editor, you should concentrate on the topic under discussion. We have nothing to do with Hilter here! Again, not being censored does never justify being offensive! What a 1/6 of the world population see as offensive should be so! no matter on what basis do they judge this as being so. Guys, we need to live in a world of cooperation, peace and respect. Not choosing this option will lead us to an enless loop of hate and conflicts. Let's understand this very well and remove the pictures please! Ossama Rashed ( talk) 08:09, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
The claimed picture has no proofs , and the other people in that strange paint are all look alike , so why wikipedia insists to keep the picture .. its not in any way related to Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) , i don't think that the administartors will keep the picture , they'll remove it soon , if they are honest with theirself .. and despite that we know the characteristics of Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) , but it is prohibited to try to draw This characteristics to shape even a close imagination of his Holy Person. So stop argue about this "Mr wiki admins" , so you dont loss our trust ..
ISLAM is PEACE
--
Basem3wad (
talk)
20:43, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
No need to remind you that we don't need to have religious obligations to ask wikipedia to remove untrue ,untrusted , and uneeded pictures or articles on the wiki pages , maybe you can't see that a new trusted encyclopedia will face the wikipedia , but which is more developed than this used one,
YES , its been used by those who knows nothing but hate to other religions , cultures , those who want to give the picture they want about what they want , your way in discussing this article shows that you're NOT neutral , & that you hang on to your mind despite of the thousands of explanations from us , and the thousands of signatures of just who knew about this article , check this petition
Remove it wiki
and keep your interest to yourself , you're so far from the scientific honesty.
this article will give a bad reputation about wikipedia , and it will make wikipedia just a place where you can find a little information to seek the truth , not the place where you can find the truth , this encyclopedia will fall down , if you do not give attention to a billion Muslim , with many non-muslims , who objects to your policy.
--
Basem3wad (
talk)
18:59, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Well , if you want to write about Islam and Muslims, its not you who should do so , you have no right to claim things about Islam and Muslims while you are not even a Muslim , even if you are a Muslim you should be verified as someone who has the proper knowledge to talk about Islam , so to all of this site administrators , you lost the trust , you have no right to close this article and you have no right to put such allegations . and if you want to see a little reaction to this article which you claim that it has been reviewed and It has wide acceptance among editors and is considered a standard that all users should follow , you can check out the objections of some of us who knew about your illegal article just go to this link and see some of the reactions , then you might think again of your reply.
Removal Of the pics from wikipedia--
Basem3wad (
talk)
16:08, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
It's taking ages for letters to appear as you type in the edit window, because the page is overburdened. The top of the edit window suggests archiving. But I didn't like to go ahead and archive because I'm not an expert and wouldn't label what's in it well, etc. All archiving appreciated.:) Merkinsmum 19:57, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
I think it interesting to see comments (like the one by User:TharkunColl above) that ask things like "Is there anything we can do to stop Muslims coming here ...". I take it that most people here assume that "we" (meaning those contributing to wikipedia) and "believing Muslim" are mutually exclusive categories (or, at least those who insist on keeping pictures of Muhammad from long after his death, do so believe). This, to me, is rather instructive as to the self-imagined community of many wikipedians: by self-definition, exclusive of Muslims (and perhaps all non-western POVs?). Sad, very sad indeed. 68.215.218.14 ( talk) 02:31, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
I am a Muslim and do not oppose the pictures of Muhammad. The pictures do not impede your ability to practice Islam as you wish to if one posts a picture of Muhammad here no more than it is an obstruction to your ability to practice if someone else has premarital sex or if someone else consumes alcohol. Do what is best for yourself, but this page should not be censored for all. This page is not written by Muslims for Muslims. Moreover, this page does mention the sensitivity associated with depictions of Muhammad, even if the page itself includes the pictures. Several views are represented in this article, including the Sunni view and Shi'a view. - Rosywounds ( talk) 05:45, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
It looks like there is a conflict between those who want the picture in here and those who want it removed. Cant there be a compromise, like we keep the picture in there but it is hidden so that if you want to see it you click here but if you don't want to don't click here. -- Hdt83 Chat 06:30, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Example:
16th century Ottoman depiction of Muhammad | |
---|---|
![]() |
I thought it was funny. Anyway I don't think it will pacify those who don't want it available at all, just have to deal with it like every other article that is vandalized often. The only way they are going to accept it is if they go study some more Islam to see that the picture isn't evil, but only worshiping it like Jesus is, as I said elsewhere.
Since Jesus is also an important prophet in Islam, I might be a lot more sympathetic if they protested the same way in the Jesus articles over his pictures since they are definitely used to worship him. In failing to do that they are being hypocritical and/or way off base in their priorities, in my opinion. - Bikinibomb ( talk) 06:59, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
To expand: the intent of the prohibition is so you don't have things to worship Mohammed by. But it's obvious some do worship him above other prophets since they don't raise the same fuss over Jesus, when in fact the Quran says all the prophets are the same, just servants of God and not to be worshiped. So they are actually destroying the meaning of the very ideal they claim to uphold. - Bikinibomb ( talk) 07:02, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
That is exactly what has been done after a lengthy debate at Rorschach inkblot test, so there is precedent for it. I actually think it would make people be more aware that showing images of Muhammad is prohibited, when they might not already know that, so I'd have no problem with it. MilesAgain ( talk) 08:47, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
A question for those dying to have a picture of the Prophet Mohammad here: Can you be certain that a certain picture is His? Obviously No - because no one has His picture, or can verify it. Thus it will be incorrect to post a picture here that you only 'think' is His. It would definately be equivalent to spreading false and unverifiable information. Personally I find it surprising why some people are bent upon having a picture here. Majority Muslims' point of view is to not have the picture and that I understand; but that of those demanding the picture, obviously mostly non-Mulsims, I don't. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.231.177.100 ( talk) 14:02, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Bikinibomb, I wonder how is it that making fun of other people's prophet is laughable in any way... Mohammed playing peek-a-boo??! what a silly comment. Unfortunately wikipedia has turned into a method for many editors to express their anti-Islam feelings ( Imad marie ( talk) 15:26, 11 January 2008 (UTC))
The images a question aren't even very faithful depictions of Muhammad as he is described in hadith. They are, thus, quite useless in depicting Muhammad as a real person. Aliibn ( talk) 01:27, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Are you more concerned with resisting a Muslim "dogma" - or with your own wish to impose a Western i.e. Christian European convention on an encyclopedia that is meant for everyone?
Illustrations are meant to illustrate some point in an article (we do not add images solely because we happen to have them around). The question is, what would a portrait of Muhammed illustrate? I completely understand those people who think "It would illustrate what Muhammad looked like" or "It would illustrate what people thought Muhammad loked like." But does an article really need these kinds of illustrations? Some may take it for granted - it is obvious! I however do not. What people consider appropriate illstrations is not universal. Therefore what people consider appropriate illustrations is a matter of convention. I suspect that many people contributing to Wikipedia think that an article about someone should have a picture of that person, because they grew up in countries where there is a strong tradition of figurative art. Certainly, representations of Jesus and the saints have been central in the history of European art and culture, so long dominated by Christian practices. So it is a perfectly reasonable convention to people who grew up in a culture that was long dominated by Christianity to have the convention, that bigraphies should be illustrated by a portrait of the person.
But this is just a convention. There is not absolute or universal logic behind it.
Here is another way to think about the issue: followers of Muhammed have a strong tradition opposed to figurative art. Wouldn't the best - meaning the most appropriate illustration to accompany an article on Muhammed be something that illustrates this Muslim convention? Maybe the best illustration for this article would be an empty box with a caption stating that Muslims often oppose representations of Muhammed.
To do so would not be to "bow down to religious pressure." It would be to illustrate an article with an illustration that is appropriate to the article; something that actually illustrates an important point in the article. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:43, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Please read what I wrote. You are not responding to what I wrote. i never said Wikipedia should be bound by religious dogma. Never. I defy you to show me where I wrote that. I didn't write it because I do not believe it. What I did say is that what we think of as an illustration should not be dictated by a single (supposedly universal?) convention. Illustrations that accompany an article should actually "illustrate" the article, i.e. convey something meaningful that is in the article. In other words, the appropriateness of an illustration is relative to the article it is meant to illustrate. And I believe, firmly, that on these grounds alone (and not religious dogma) that a picture of Muhammed would be an illustration that "misses the point" and fails effectively to illustrate the article. An effective illustration might be an image of some text, or an empty box that illustrates a very important legacy of Muhammed, which was his influence on conventions of representation. That would be a meaningful illustration that would help educate people about Muhammed. I am opposed to your "one size fits all" approach to encyclopedia articles. It is very bad pedagogy. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:57, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Can someone provide a cogent explanation for why the article must include a portrait of Muhammad? What is the point of adding such an illustration, and why is it an important point? Slrubenstein | Talk 22:09, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
No. 84: Um, are you incabable of answering my question, or do you simply not want to? You write, "If there are no actual true to life portraits of him painted then the illustrations by Islamic scholars will have to do." Why? "Why do they have to do?" I do not see why they "have to do." You have not answered my question, why is it necessary toinclude an image of Muhammad? You write, "Whether they improve the article or not is a matter of opinion." Well, okay, you are of the opinion that it improves the article. Okay, but I asked you to explain to me why you think this. How does it improve the article_ Why? Please justify what you advocate. If you have no reason, your edit is irrational and can be discounted. TharkunColl continues to use a red'herring by playing some religion card. I am not Muslim and seek neither to adhere to nor enforce an Islamic taboo for religious reasons. What I want to know is, I repeat, why di you want to include a portrait of Muhammad to the article? What is your reason? Again, if you cannot provide a reason, you are being irrational. Slrubenstein | Talk 22:36, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
"The images express the subject matter of the article." How? It is not obvious to me so you need to explain it. The subject matter of the articl is a man who was a "statesman in Medina, a rebel in Mecca," a prophet an reformer ... how does a portrait of Muhammad illustrate this subject matter? I could see a map of battles, a chart of kinship alliances, a summary of his propohesies, as all illustrating the subject matter. but simply a picture of Muhammed? What pray tell content is being illustrated? The article says that people write his name with reverence - okay, I can see images of his name in writing illustrating the subject matter of the article. But an image of his face? Why? How? Can you explain it? And really, educational psychologists have demonstrated the benefits of providing an illustration of Muhammed´s face? PLEASE provide me with the citation to that study. The article already had plenty of illustrations, no one is arguing against illustrations in general. The question is, what is an appropriate illustration i.e. one that further conveys an important point in the article? Slrubenstein | Talk 22:52, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
I am not being tendentious - is this how you respond to anyone who asks you to justify your position? I iimagine you spend much of your time with people who think as you do so you never have to justify your views. Guess what: you have now encountered someone new, who does not accept unquestioningly your own beliefs. Pictures are not always appropriate. It depends on the subject matter. Itsmejudith provided a rational explanation for how o illustrate this article, So far you have not. Please, lket's be rational. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:08, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Now that's an explanation that makes sense to me, it is well-reasoned. Sounds good to me! Why is it that the people who disagree with you, Itsmejudith, cannot offer any rational explanations for their views? What is important here is to act rationally; thank you for presnting a rational proposal. Slrubenstein | Talk 22:55, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Says you. For many people in the world pictures are irrelevant to portraying a person. A person is portrayed through stories about him or her. You have your won POV approach to what makes a name a person, and it is not shared by all. This is Wikipedia and you need to work within a framework where your own beliefs are not necesarily shared by others, and you need to be able to work with others who are different from you. You do not own this space. This means you must be held accountable. I have asked for a satisfying reason why a portrait of Muhammed is necessary and have yet to receive one. So far only Itsmejudith has provided a reational answer. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:05, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
So several good reasons have been given and I just ignore them? Really? And what are these so-called reasons? So far I just see irrational dogmatism. So farf all he so-called reasons boil down to "qarticles about people must have pictures about people" but this is kind of circular reasoning that goes nowhere. And I am NLT closed minded. I will give you a good reason for including a picture of Muhammed: IF how he looked were of some importance historically or culturally that would justify including a potrait. But no one has argued this and I do not think it is the case. Anyway, get hysterical, obviously you are used to bulying yoru way and not used to having to justify yourselves. Sorry, hee you Do have to provide a rational explanation. It isn't even clear to me why you think this matters! Slrubenstein | Talk 23:26, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
This seems to be a non'sequitor. But I will assume good faith that maybe you have a valid reaoson for asking. Is this your only objection to my postion? I won´t bother answering it unless I first know what difference if any my answer will make. I don´t feel like playing games. I want to know if this is a serious question and what the consequences of my answer could be. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:52, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
No. This talk page is for discussing improvements to the Muhammad article. I do not see how talking about Alfred the Great is necessary to improve this article, which is why I think your asking the question is playing a game. I admit I may be wrong! But I need you to explain it to me. How would discussing the Alfred the Great article help us improve this article? To be clear, what I mean is this: How would my answer to your question about Alfred the Great make any difference here? Slrubenstein | Talk 18:44, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
I repeat: this page is for discussing improvements to the Muhammad article. Not the Jesus or the Buddha article Slrubenstein | Talk 01:22, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
From what I have read, the objection to a drawing, painting, sculpture of Muhammad seems to be that there is no life image of him (please correct me if I'm wrong). The counter-argument seems to be that there are no, or few, life images of Jesus of Nazareth, Buddha, Zoroaster, Moses or any of the other great figures of religion. But I suspect a religious motivation too, if I can read between the lines. Religious sentiment should not be a consideration. Now given Islamic tradition it would be small wonder that there wasn't a true image of the Prophet. So any full facial portraits of the prophet are going to be Western. So a case can be made for a traditional Islamic representation, just as images of Jesus are usually traditional Western images or images of Buddha are traditionally Asian images. Wasn't he traditionally portrayed in a veil or a halo? Perhaps such an image could be inserted?-- Gazzster ( talk) 02:00, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Very interesting. I have often thought that, in the West, convention is a sort of idol that stops people thinking outside the box. And convention is the god of Wikipedia. I believe Wikipedia is a tool to stop people thinking, not to encourage it. Why am I still here? I just love the stimulation, I guess. And yes, I agree-why should a western convention dominate an article about a non-Western figure? Thank you, I am learning a lot from our exchanges. I think I'd agree with you now. Tell me though, the veil and halo thing? What do you think of that?-- Gazzster ( talk) 02:26, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
I must say that the above is very instructive. User:Slrubenstein and User:Itsmejudith make valid points and ask for reasons. None are given but are replied with vague sophistries, evasions, and ideological triumphalism. Allow me to make a couple of points: 1) There are two illustrations on the page that are completely unproblematic for many Muslims. One is calligraphy, the other is an illustration of Muhammad with his face veiled. So, the issue isn't for Muslims all illustrations but of specific ones. 2) The illustrations in question do not follow the descriptions of Muhammad in hadith nor do they date from any time remotely near his life. They thus add nothing to anyone's knowledge base. 3) The false issue that no one has any problem with using modern fantasy illustrations of medieval figures (such as Alfred the Great raised by User:TharkunColl is completely bogus. He raised it before; I answered him that, yes, those are problematic as they also do nothing for adding knowledge. I even attempted to add a tag to that article ... so his claim is utterly baseless and deceitful and he is fully aware of that. If one wishes to fix up the Alfred the Great article, why not add illustrations of the Alfred Jewel or of his coinage (like this http://www.pewterreplicas.co.uk/second%20site%20pictures/alfred%20the%20great%20coins.jpg )? 4) TharkunColl and other users on this page claim that removing the pictures of Muhammad that are problematic means giving in to a religious POV. Perhaps.
But ... LEAVING THEM UP DOES JUST THE SAME! There IS an ideology (as promoted by people like Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens amongst others) that demands deliberately offending the religious (of all religions) as part of its own goals - a sort of militant Atheism, hostile to all theistic religions. And leaving up the pictures is very much Appeasement of that ideology. So, it's not a decision between 'freedom of speech' and 'censorship' but between actual knowledge and working towards a global consensus on one side and a militant ideology trying to foment anger on the other. Aliibn ( talk) 23:36, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
whatever Muslims say or think or whatever the facts in the matter, it doesn't matter.
I am Muslim, and I've already explained that the real prohibition is against worshiping pictures, not against pictures themselves. I might be more sympathetic to fellow Muslims if they had a valid point but they don't. So I for one wouldn't remove the pictures simply because it's only reinforcing bad theology. Aside from secular issues of censorship. - Bikinibomb ( talk) 23:45, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
You are the ever wiser and most reasonable one in this discussion, as you've clearly demonstrated. Reason and logic are strong in you; they let you penetrate through the veils of simple minded illusions cast upon we lesser folk. And you are far better educated and capable of research than any of us simple-minded believers (especially those from lesser breeds) so, I'm sure you can decipher such on your own. Cheers! Aliibn ( talk) 00:16, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Is this conversation actually going anywhere? Look if you find the pictures offensive don't look at them but Wikipedia is for everyone so let us have access to the pictures. No one is being forced to look at this article after all. 00:30, 2 January 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Theresa knott ( talk • contribs)
Above, Bikinibomb writes "I am Muslim, and I've already explained that the real prohibition is against worshiping pictures, not against pictures themselves." But I am not a Muslim, and have made it clear that I object to including a picture of Muhammad on non-religious grounds. Since we now have one Muslim who does not object, and a non-Muslim who does object, I think we can now safely abandon the claim that excluding an image of Muhammad is a form of dogmatic religious censorship!!! Abandoning that red-herring, maybe we can have a more reasonable discussion. That said, I have one other important and constructive suggestion: let us have an end with TharkunColl's arguments involving "all the countless thousands of other medieval person's articles." His/her comments - at least along this specific line - are examples of WP:DIS and [[WP:POINT] because the purpose of this talk page is to discuss improvemenst to this article. Widening the discussion to "countless thousands of other ... articles" is an obvious disruption of this talk page. Not only is it simply inappropriate, it is obviously impractical - if we widen this discussion to include thousands of other articles we will never reach a resolution. We make improvements by focusing on the article we are trying to improve, not other articles. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:53, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
You are wrong. The purpose of this talk page is to discuss improvements to this article. It is not for discussing improvements to other articles. If you want to discuss an improvement to another article, we should do it on the talk page of the other article. And I repeat: My objection to the depiction is not based on my being muslim and it is neither religious nor cultural. But I have already explained my reasoning, at length, at leaast twice, above. We could discuss my objections to including an image, and reasons for including an image, in this article. But you and others repeatedly prefer to discuss other articles. this should a serious absense of good faith and disruptive editing. Slrubenstein | Talk 22:59, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
I haven't been following this talk page very long, but please allow me to comment. Now it is true that Islam has been one of the most misunderstood and maligned religions in the West for the past 1500 years. In a forum like this we ought to show respect for the religious sentiments of others. But as for encyclopedic content we conduct ourselves by academic standards. Religious sensitivities just don't come into it. The sentiments of those who profess one particular creed shouldn't be seen to be deserving of greater respect than those of other creeds. Now TharkunColl's comment was definitely out of line, and he has been blocked for it. But he might not have been given occasion to make it if editors hadn't made religion an issue in the first place.-- Gazzster ( talk) 23:47, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
A wise, balanced comment Wily.-- Gazzster ( talk) 00:37, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
To reply to WilyD, perhaps we have a misunderstanding. My accusation of a lack of good faith is explicitly aimed at those who have argued that we cannot decide this question concerning this article without considering "countless thouseands" of other articles, which is patently absurd and inconsistent with Wikipedia policy. I strongly object to a cookie-cutter, one-size-fits-all approach to articles. But if I may assume good faith on your part, WilyD, I think you are now raising a slightly different issue which is that how we respolve questions concerning one encyclopedia article ought to be based on principles that could apply to other encyclopedia articles. If this is what you mean to say I agree 100%. But I think there is a world of difference between sahying that we should apply principles that could apply to other encyclopedia articles, and saying that we should follow the exact same practice on all articles. Now, please do me the favor of reading my original comment in the section above. It is my first comment on this page, and my first comment on this topic. I believe that I framed my reasoning in a way that assumed or proposed a principle that could be applied to all encyclopedia articles. if this is not clear to you I would ask that you read my second comment. I sincerely hope my first and second comments make my position clear. I want to emphasize that while I oppose including an image of Muhammad here, it is based on a general principle I would apply to any Wikipedia article. I hope in this regard WilyD you and I can agree.
A final point: someone challenged my good faith and credibility by asserting that I would reject any argument for including an image of Muhammed. this was a scurilous accusation, in fact a pathetically defensive tactic since I was in fact asking people to provide rationales for including Muhammed's image, and no one could provide me with one. I can now say that C. Logan has provided what I consider a reasonable argument for including an image of Muhammed int he article and I thank him for it. I happen still to disagree, but people in good faith can disagree. At least he took the time to provide a reason. This shows more respect for Wikipedia and this article than some of the other people who have been commenting on this page. Slrubenstein | Talk 01:37, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Well, I do think you raise an important point. However, I still don't support adding images here. What I would propose (though some Muslims may really object) would be an article specifically on figurative representations of Muhammed, and theological or legal debates over images of Muhammed. In the context of such an article the image to which you refer would be very importand indeed - part of the article would be art-historical, perhaps exploring how different images of Muhammed reflect changes in Islamic culture or views of Muhammed. I think this would be a very interesting article and yes, the earliest known image of Muhammed would indeed have great hiswtorical value. My point is, it would have value for an article on the history of images in Islam, not on the life and teachings of Muhammed, if this makes sense. Slrubenstein | Talk 01:53, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Okay - thank you! Slrubenstein | Talk 02:08, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Thank you! I did not know about this. It is interesting, but underdeveloped - Bikinbomb, perhaps you would be well-suited to begin an improvement drive? Slrubenstein | Talk 02:40, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
In the mediation from a while back myself and some others basically argued that although a depiction may have been warranted, 4-5 was overkill, especially when having them positioned prominently in the article. I still think that. I think the aim of showing how tradition (although most, if not all it surrounds the Shi'ite Safawid era) has depicted Muhammad can be achieved through one or two such images, in a section such as Muhammad#Depictions_of_Muhammad. ITAQALLAH 22:22, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
i read FAQ and so Wikimapia use false images.. Images are put to prove/clearify topics/articles not just DECORATIONS
so the images are not proved (cant be prove) to be Mohammed (pbuh) and there are alot of pictures that can be used instead instead(his grave picture,his cloth..ect)
Knowing its offensive is something to consider and that doesnt make you unprofessional if you remove the pics and put others pics proven/used
and if you really wants to mentain the neutral point of view then you should use the right pitures respecting all people .
i really hope you can be more open minded about it and use real pictures of current items(left) instead of some unknown drawings of unknown people..
Glassflowers ( talk) 22:33, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Hi... May I edit this article? There are some things left out. and can u contact me on my page so that I know when you do? Thx.-- CherryBlossom93 ( talk) 01:54, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
The only way, to do this is a) write or contact heads of muslim countries requesting they block wikipedia as it contains offensive articles on the prophet Muhammed. This can easily be organised just through the muslims who have requested pictures removed from this article, after all they come from many countries b)Initiate a media campaign , saying Wikipedia deliberately insults Islam
I know many internet providers currently block offensive Wikipedia articles in various countries
Alternatively you can do your best to knock wikipedias article of Muhammed(pbuh) of the top spot in google searches by promoting the muslimwiki articles on Muhammed (pbuh)
Asking a US centric bunch of contributers to do you a favour is not going to happen —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.86.223.147 ( talk) 11:32, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
I hope the editors of wikipedia will delete that image because it does not illustrate anything in the article of Mohammad pbuh. If you really need to put an illustration , there are hundreds of useful illustrations that suit this article without offending Muslims all round the earth.
If you want to reply to me and claim that you have your own rules or regulations , then please have a look at this rule : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IAR
If you like us to provide the article with more info about our prophet mohammad, please let us know, and we will be happy to provide you with great more details about him. There are tens of certified resources about our lovely prophet Mohammad, regards, Ala' Alsallal —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.173.241.173 ( talk) 18:23, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Images can serve a historical importance and certain ones (e.g. the earliest recorded depiction) would be valuable to an article. However, as it stands, including 3-4+ images seems as though it is being done with the intent to spite Muslims, not because it necessarily contributes to the article, particularly since visuals of Muhammad have rarely been used to depict him in the first place. Including images that contribute nothing simply because that would be Wikipedian procedure comes across as somewhat of an intellectual imperialism; there have been similar discussions about this on articles like Humanities, which fail to provide a worldwide view for that very reason. The Humanities article does not give a worldwide view because philosophies that pertain to Humanism and the divisions between the spiritual and the earthly are, in essence, a European phenomenon. Although India, the Middle East, and China all had complex civilizations which were, for most of history, equally, if not more technologically advanced than the West (pretty much until the end of the 16th century), the East never made a similar, lasting distinction between the Earth and the Heavens. For that reason, putting Sufi philosophy in an article on Humanities, for example, would be defining a non-Western phenomonenon in terms that are alien, if that makes sense. And as it has already been discussed there, it amounts to intellectual imperialism (meaning that Non-Western ways to classify things are intrinsically inferior, therefore they should be discarded and all articles, even if they are on non-Western thought, must conform to Western classifications and standards).
Similarly, an article on Muhammad should not necessarily be defined solely on Western terms; Muhammad is, after all, not a Westerner and those that documented most of his life rarely, if ever, depicted him. So with that said, I think one or two images could serve a purpose; I think placing images of him in this page for no reason other than to put them there is going to naturally come off as though these pictures are being added maliciously to spite Muslim sensitivities "because we can," whether or not it is true. Moreover, it appears as though there are more images of Muhammad than there are traditional Muslim forms of depiction, which then poses the question of undue weight and POV editing. - Rosywounds ( talk) 20:54, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Please re-read my statement. I did not say all of the images should be removed; however, it is quite bizarre that an article on Muhammad would have more Western-oriented depictions than Middle Eastern ones. Arabesques, geometric art, and calligraphy have been the dominant art forms used within the Muslim world, particularly when it comes to depictions of Muhammad. While I don't necessarily think all of the images should go, it does seem like intellectual imperialism to make this article primarily Western oriented even though it is based on a non-Western man. The Humanities article, for example, also does not conform to a world view, since the Humanities are essentially a Western subject. Other cultures have had philosophy, science, and art, but they have never defined or classified them in the Western style. For that reason, they are not included in depth in that article. Similarly, Muhammad is traditionally not necessarily depicted in the way that Jesus is depicted in Europe or Buddha is depicted in East Asia; it seems odd to give undue weight to Western-oriented images that represent an overwhelming minority of the depictions available. Moreover, the article on Jesus does not include a single non-European depiction of Jesus (and the Jesus article is almost FA!). I didn't say all of the images should be removed; I simply think that it is odd for there to be almost as many, if not more, actual depictions than there are calligraphic images.
The long article needs images to "add flow" is a very weak argument, IMO. In the first six sections alone, for example, there are three images of Muhammad, and only one piece of calligraphic art. I could probably find at least 10-20 times as much calligraphy than I can actual depictions (since that is how he is depicted within every single mosque), so that certainly is undue weight for the Western perspective, and that is why I feel as though it looks like intellectual imperialism. - Rosywounds ( talk) 06:13, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Correct. Music is only rejected by Wahhabis and Salafis. However, 85% of the current Muslim world is Sunni and, prior to the Safavid Empire, it was close to 100% of the Muslim world. Every major school of Sunni Islam is opposed to iconography. Yet, calligraphic images are underrepresented. Catering to a minority view by loading the page with nontraditional images is a POV edit, IMO. None of the images were made in the West, but they are nontraditional images that conform more so with Western religious art than traditional Muslim art. As I said, the fact that three out of the first four images of Muhammad are all nontraditional suggests that this article is biased against traditional Muslim depictions. Similar articles (e.g. Jesus) do not provide any nontraditional depictions whatsoever. Certainly one image, maybe two, could serve a purpose here. Adding them for the sake of adding them seems reckless; adding them for the sake of "avoiding censorship" is simply nonsense. - Rosywounds ( talk) 06:39, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
For example, if placed next to the "depictions" section, they would actually be relevant. Also, location expresses significance. Funkynusayri ( talk) 07:49, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Yes, but on those pages, the images are relevant to the text next to them (picture as a youth next to the "early life" section, etc). The ones in this article aren't, they just seem to have been randomly thrown in there. They could of course be moved further down to fitting texts. I'll do it if no one minds. Funkynusayri ( talk) 22:45, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
plz remove that picture from mohammed page or it add to the artist page. Emmanzur ( talk) 09:13, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
How about having a number of 'images' of Muhammed? A calligraphic image, which we already have. A traditional Islamic image, Persian, Ottoman, whatever, and a Western image? I think that could be quite enlightening to make a comparison.-- Gazzster ( talk) 10:51, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
Yet there is another image under the etymology section, which is irrelevant to the text next to it, and which furthermore screws up the layout. Such images should be moved down to the sections they actually illustrate, like on all other pages, see Jesus as example. Funkynusayri ( talk) 17:29, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
well, we all know that encylopedias must only include validated data, information, images, diagrams, etc.. but here on this "Encylopedia" they dont do that.. then how can we trust their articles and the data they provide on this website ?..
what wikipedia did is that they (those who run it) added a picture claiming that is belongs to the prophet Muhammad peace upon him, but where is there proof?! have they really seen him and validated it? what also puzzles me that they have two pictures claiming that they are of the prophet, but the funny thing is that they dont even match... so how can the same person have two different looks?!
what i want is that, they either validate the truthfullness of their information and validate it, so that its accurate. or simply dont add images, dates, diagrams that they cant be sure if its right or not...
if they fail to do that, and they still keep those images which i find is weird then how can we trust the other articles they have.. to support my point, i am studying in one of the most prestigious universities in the world, and when i prepare my reports the inctructors (non muslims), dont allow us to use wikipedia as a trusted source.
now, adding to that all the approved laws in the united states and the laws passed to organize the internet, prevent the release of contents that might be abusive to others, and this policey is maintained in all respected websites. so, all we are asking is to bind to the law, authenticate your data and remove any abusive content.
a person might argue that these pictures are not abusive. Well, as a reply to that, a person that is not a muslim might fail to see the harm of these pictures, but we cant rely his point of view because he simply doesnt know Islam and doesnt know what is abusive adn what is not to muslims, and their prophet. what must be done to know if these pictures are abusive to muslims or not, is to simply ask a muslim. To help wikipedia ask muslims, a petition was formed signed by 40 thousand muslims and adding agreeing that they find this picture is abusive to all muslims.
so, as these pictures remain on this website i come to two conclusions. 1) that Wikipedia cant be trusted as a real source of valid information or as an encylopedia because they have unvalid and wrong information in their articles. so as a user how can i know which article has good information and which dont.. simply i cant. 2) Wikipedia, doesnt bind to the law of united states, united nations and the laws passed to regulate the usage of the internet, as they are publishing on their website a content that is agreed by thousands of muslims as abusive to their religion and believes. in other words.
I hope this will change soon. and our points be taken into considerations.
just a last remark, someone might argue that this is a freedom of speech. But we all agree that a freedom of speech must not cause harm to a group of people.
THE IRONY, IS THAT AT THE BUTTON OF THIS PAGE, WIKIPEDIA OFFICIALS WRORTE "ENCYLOPEDIC CONTENT MUST BE VERIFIABLE". how did they verify that those images are really of the prophet Muhamad, keeping in mind that they are putting two different images of the same person. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.64.53.178 ( talk) 15:30, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
i will give more explanations to my points... soon. 1 7 21:48, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Sir , request you to remove this picutre as this hurts the sentiments of Muslims. We have great respect for Wikipedia, but this should not be abused in the name of freedom.
regards
Hussaine
Ok, please try voting here, it's only voting to say yes remove these pictures from Wikipeda, this vote for muslims only who want to remove these pictures, just if clicked here, this mean you are agree to remove the pictures. and this will increment a counter. for more transparency, please every muslim to vote once time.
Vote please here: [3] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.135.9.86 ( talk) 22:49, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Someone could just reload that page all day and increase the count, so that vote doesn't really indicate anything valid. - Bikinibomb ( talk) 23:31, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
So that, asking every muslim to vote once time. or suggest to embed a real voting here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.135.9.86 ( talk) 23:54, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
so, if consensus and democracy mean anything, it should be ... http://www.thepetitionsite.com/2/removal-of-the-pics-of-muhammad-from-wikipedia
or are only opinions of westerners allowed to matter here?
Aliibn (
talk)
16:54, 29 December 2007 (UTC) —
Aliibn (
talk •
contribs) has made
few or no other edits outside this topic.
Wikipedia is an encyclopedia written from an outside perspective; it is not written for any specific audience, nor is it written from the perspective of a Muslim. As mentioned above, we do not vote or petition at Wikipedia; there are no referendums at Wikipedia. Things placed on Wikipedia are (ideally) factual, unbiased, uncensored, and informative, even if they are potentially offensive or hypersensitive. It is unfortunate that pictures of Muhammad have offended many Muslims, but this topic has already been discussed thoroughly and these threads are becoming redundant. It should be noted, however, that Shiites often times do, in fact, depict Muhammad and (more commonly) Imam Hussein. The view that Muhammad should be free of any depiction, thus, is a sectarian issue; it is not even a universal position throughout Islam. Even if it were, the fact of the matter still remains: Wikipedia does not censor and Wikipedia is not a democracy. I do not know whether or not it is a violation of censorship policy, but perhaps we could include a warning of these images at the top of the page on Muhammad? This is becoming nauseating. Regardless, the notion that we are going to adhere to Islamic taboos, as already mentioned, is out of the question. - Rosywounds ( talk) 18:20, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Dear, it is not a matter of democracy, it is a matter of respect, and love. as muslims we love him more than we love ourselves, and so we cannot accept any behaviour that is against his teachings. would it be democracy to put your naked mother image on wiki ? will you be happy ? this behaviour for muslims means the same of that behaviour to anybody who respects and loves his mother. Neutrality of Wikipedia requires to be neutral, if we feel that it is against our religion we talk, otherwise nobody have the right to talk. Please show some respect. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bashar shboul ( talk • contribs) 09:48, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
what is with that all the power and control of the english wikipedia editors...just make a very simple vote and all of us will know what shuold be done 41.235.129.205 ( talk) 17:29, 11 January 2008 (UTC) .
.
What I fail to understand is why the writers of this article are making a fuss out of it all.Why cant you just refer the names of the books that contains the images and get it off your back.And write over there why the images were removed.Whoever is so adamant to see Muhammad's pictures would do it on his own damn self.
Stop making more mess, as if we all are already not in a mess of dictating other peoples life and countries and now in this instance their religion.
71.238.39.86 (
talk)
16:07, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
About the images attched here in this geat article, first, I need a proof that Al-Bīrūnī is the owner of the picture attached, I can't blieve that he draw it anyway.
I ask to remove these pictures anyway; because democracy dosn't mean anything here. we are Muslims all rejecting these pictures, we don't need it,
would it be democracy to put your naked mother image on wiki ? will you be happy ? this behaviour for muslims means the same of that behaviour to anybody who respects and loves his mother'.
To prove the democracy here, I agree with making a vote to remove these picture, in the condition that Muslims only who asked to vote...'''' ==