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The Mutazilite are a distinct group NOT Sunnite. I edited it and described the relation between them and the Sunni and Shia Islam, three Caliphates were Mutazilite in the Abbasid empire, Al-Ma'mun, Al-Mu'tasim and Al-Wathiq, then the Caliphates supported the Sunnite again since Al-Mutawakkil. Atheerkt ( talk) 11:39, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
"The Mutazilites found support again from the Buyid sultans, the effective rulers of the Abbasid Empire in the late tenth and early eleventh centuries; but the overthrow of the Buyids by the Seljuk Turks was effectively the end for Mutazilite rationalism within Sunni Islam.Ernest Gellner and Contemporary Social Thought,
"While Mutazilism had become marginalized in Sunni Islam..."[1],
"The result is a polarized view of the Mu‛tazili tradition; Islamists view the Mu‛tazila as a heresy best forgotten while modernists, Muslim and Western, as historical proof of Islam’s essentially rational character."[2] - the latter in particular highlights the intrinsic POV in stating in Wikivoice that Mutazilites are not a part of the Sunni tradition, when in fact Abu Hasan al-Ash'ari himself first studied under the Mutazilite Al-Jubba'i - a context in which the assertion that Mutazilites were not Sunni would be quite extraordinary. Iskandar323 ( talk) 08:16, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
The vast majority of sources do not consider them to be Sunnis, even though they were followers of the Hanafi school of thought, exactly just like the Karramis.
In contrast to the Mu'tazilites (who are not Sunni), al-Ash'ari held that the Attributes are not simply words (lafz) or modes (ahwal), but real things (ashya') subsisting in God from eternity. [1]
The founders of the major Sunni theological schools: Ahmad ibn Hanbal (d. 241/855), Abu al-Hasan al-Ash'ari (d. 324/936), Abu Mansur al-Maturidi (d. 333/944) ALL OF THEM strongly criticized the Mu'tazilis and did not consider them to be Sunnis. The formal name of the Sunni Muslims is the Ahl al-Sunna wa al-Jama'a (the People of the Sunna and the Majority/Consensus/Community/Collective), while the Mu'tazilis referred to themselves as Ahl al-'Adl wa al-Tawhid (the People of Justice and Monotheism).-- TheEagle107 ( talk) 14:46, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
Sunni schools: The Sunni school is one of the largest branches of the Islamic faith. The word Sunni originates from sunnah, which means the tradition of Islam's Prophet Muḥammad. There are four Sunni schools of law (madhhab), which are Hanafi, Shafi'i, Hambali and Maliki. All four schools of law take their creed ( ʿaqīdah) from the three schools of theology, Ash'ari, Athari and Māturidī. ......... Mu'tazili: This school of Islamic theology came into being through controversies involving the interpretation (ta'wil) of the Qur'an in its anthropomorphic description of God and the denial of free will. ... [2]
People of the sunna and the community: The Sunnis are the majority of the umma, and they include the Ash'arites, the Maturidi, and the Salafists who follow the four schools of jurisprudence and others, in contrast to the Mu'tazilites and Kharijites. [3]
Mu`tazilism is no longer a sect or school of thought in Sunni Islamic societies and therefore cannot become a minority or a majority. While it is true that some Shia scholars have been influenced by Mu`tazilism, Sunni Muslims have shunned Mu`tazilism since the end of the inquisition ( Mihna), on account of the caliph's enforcement of reason-based doctrines from Mu`tazilite thinkers. [4]
Though Sunni Muslims regarded the Mu'tazila as heretical, their ideas continued to influence Shi'i thinkers in Persia. [5]
The other significant group is the Mu'tazila, a historical group who flourished in the 9th and 10th centuries, and for some centuries thereafter. They are rejected by the Sunnis because, in their view, the Mu'tazila overstress the role of reason. [6]
Since then, the vast majority of Sunni scholars have considered the Mu'tazila as heretical. [7]
Eventually Sunnis rejected the theories of the Mu'tazilites, while the Twelver and Zaydī Shī'īs accepted a large part of them [8]
Although Sunnis considered Mu'tazilism to be a heresy, Mu'tazilite legal theory and its perspective on hadiths had a major impact on Sunni legal theory. [9]
In the same way that the Mu'tazilites opposed the Sunnis in theology [10]
Gimaret (1980) has written a detailed study on Mu'tazilite and Sunnite thought on the subject of human acts and the arguments theologians used to defend their positions. [11]
-- TheEagle107 ( talk) 20:43, 25 February 2023 (UTC)Reacting to the practical social consequences of the Kharijite view of sin, other Islamic factions—Mu'tazilites, Shi'ites, Murji'ites, and Sunnis [12]
"Mu`tazilism is no longer a sect or school of thought in Sunni Islamic societies...", which by inference implies Mu'tazilism once was a sect or school of thought in Sunni societies. More generally, the problem with most of this statements, taken out of context, is that they provide no sense of the time periods that they address. Now obviously when Ash'ari was studying under a well-known Mutazilite, they probably weren't considered "heretical". Then the theology went through a bad patch after al-Ma'mun promoted it in a somewhat authoritarian manner and then al-Mutawakkil repudiated it. But right there in the middle though, Mutazilism was the theology officially supported by the caliph. Most of the above quotes, without their context, don't really explain what the periods are that they are talking about. In modern times, there is also plenty of confusion about what the classical Mutazilites argued and what 'neo-Mutazilites' today argue, as outlined quite succinctly in the abstract here. Iskandar323 ( talk) 06:20, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
In the late eighth and ninth centuries, a Hanafi-Murjia orientation was strong in Isfahan, Rayy, and Khurasan,
while in Baghdad some Hanafis were Mutazilis and others were Sunnis. [13]
Because many thought the rationalism of the Mu'tazilites was extreme, Sunni Muslims often regarded them as heretics (Watt 1985, 55). Their ascendancy ended with the rule of the Sunni caliph al-Mutawakkil, who destroyed their movement. [14]
The Sunnis distinguished themselves from the Mu'tazilis who usually conducted more reasoning by leaving aside some hadiths which were considered irrelevant and weak, da'if. In some cases, such as on the issue of anthropomorphism, the latter eliminated some hadiths opposing their doctrine, although the hadiths were reliable, sahih. Consequently, while the Mu'tazilis were widely influenced by the ideas of philosophers, the Sunnis were completely impressed by those of the Ashab, and the salaf al-salih, and the reliable 'ulama' in the medieval period as well. [15]
Each branch of Islam has some central beliefs ( Usul al-Din). Sunni Muslims follow the six articles of faith ("It is to believe in Allah (God), His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Last Day, and that you believe in preordainment (destiny), its bad and good consequences.") and Shi'a Muslims follow the five roots of Usul al-Din (see: Twelver theology). However, all Mu'tazilis regardless of their differences agreed on five foundational doctrines or principles (Usul al-Din). These principles were:
For more details on these issues, see:
References
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link)
Page moved. Vegaswikian ( talk) 22:33, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
Mu'tazili → Mu'tazila – Not only Mu'tazila is the correct form of the Arabic معتزلة, it is also more popular, compare here:
As stated before, this is an opinion that is stated via a farfetched website based on economics.
The first 3 website that appear on google regarding the Mu’tazilites don't mention anything regard them being celebrated. I would rather take the BBC, Britania, or the Oxford Bibliographies that give a neutral introduction over a random quote from a random website chosen to cherry-pick the editor in questions opinion. The person who kept changing this and called me a "troll" even admitted it was a minority opinion on the edit history page. If I wanted I could also find a million sources stated the Muʿtazila were hated - but I am not biased so I would not.
Please removed the "celebrated" comment, because as stated above, the main sources regarding the Muʿtazila do not mention this.
The result of the move request was: MOVED. Hadal ( talk) 20:03, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: WP:RMEC: initiated by a sockpuppet, and no other support for the move request at this time. Dekimasu よ! 15:46, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
Mu'tazilism →
Mu'tazilites – per
WP:COMMONNAME.
And for consistency with former Islam-related sects such as
Kharijites, not "Kharijism",
Kaysanites, not "Kaysanism".
Kermanshehi (
talk)
16:18, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
This
level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article was the subject of an educational assignment supported by WikiProject United States Public Policy and the Wikipedia Ambassador Program. |
This page has archives. Sections older than 365 days may be automatically archived by ClueBot III when more than 5 sections are present. |
The Mutazilite are a distinct group NOT Sunnite. I edited it and described the relation between them and the Sunni and Shia Islam, three Caliphates were Mutazilite in the Abbasid empire, Al-Ma'mun, Al-Mu'tasim and Al-Wathiq, then the Caliphates supported the Sunnite again since Al-Mutawakkil. Atheerkt ( talk) 11:39, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
"The Mutazilites found support again from the Buyid sultans, the effective rulers of the Abbasid Empire in the late tenth and early eleventh centuries; but the overthrow of the Buyids by the Seljuk Turks was effectively the end for Mutazilite rationalism within Sunni Islam.Ernest Gellner and Contemporary Social Thought,
"While Mutazilism had become marginalized in Sunni Islam..."[1],
"The result is a polarized view of the Mu‛tazili tradition; Islamists view the Mu‛tazila as a heresy best forgotten while modernists, Muslim and Western, as historical proof of Islam’s essentially rational character."[2] - the latter in particular highlights the intrinsic POV in stating in Wikivoice that Mutazilites are not a part of the Sunni tradition, when in fact Abu Hasan al-Ash'ari himself first studied under the Mutazilite Al-Jubba'i - a context in which the assertion that Mutazilites were not Sunni would be quite extraordinary. Iskandar323 ( talk) 08:16, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
The vast majority of sources do not consider them to be Sunnis, even though they were followers of the Hanafi school of thought, exactly just like the Karramis.
In contrast to the Mu'tazilites (who are not Sunni), al-Ash'ari held that the Attributes are not simply words (lafz) or modes (ahwal), but real things (ashya') subsisting in God from eternity. [1]
The founders of the major Sunni theological schools: Ahmad ibn Hanbal (d. 241/855), Abu al-Hasan al-Ash'ari (d. 324/936), Abu Mansur al-Maturidi (d. 333/944) ALL OF THEM strongly criticized the Mu'tazilis and did not consider them to be Sunnis. The formal name of the Sunni Muslims is the Ahl al-Sunna wa al-Jama'a (the People of the Sunna and the Majority/Consensus/Community/Collective), while the Mu'tazilis referred to themselves as Ahl al-'Adl wa al-Tawhid (the People of Justice and Monotheism).-- TheEagle107 ( talk) 14:46, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
Sunni schools: The Sunni school is one of the largest branches of the Islamic faith. The word Sunni originates from sunnah, which means the tradition of Islam's Prophet Muḥammad. There are four Sunni schools of law (madhhab), which are Hanafi, Shafi'i, Hambali and Maliki. All four schools of law take their creed ( ʿaqīdah) from the three schools of theology, Ash'ari, Athari and Māturidī. ......... Mu'tazili: This school of Islamic theology came into being through controversies involving the interpretation (ta'wil) of the Qur'an in its anthropomorphic description of God and the denial of free will. ... [2]
People of the sunna and the community: The Sunnis are the majority of the umma, and they include the Ash'arites, the Maturidi, and the Salafists who follow the four schools of jurisprudence and others, in contrast to the Mu'tazilites and Kharijites. [3]
Mu`tazilism is no longer a sect or school of thought in Sunni Islamic societies and therefore cannot become a minority or a majority. While it is true that some Shia scholars have been influenced by Mu`tazilism, Sunni Muslims have shunned Mu`tazilism since the end of the inquisition ( Mihna), on account of the caliph's enforcement of reason-based doctrines from Mu`tazilite thinkers. [4]
Though Sunni Muslims regarded the Mu'tazila as heretical, their ideas continued to influence Shi'i thinkers in Persia. [5]
The other significant group is the Mu'tazila, a historical group who flourished in the 9th and 10th centuries, and for some centuries thereafter. They are rejected by the Sunnis because, in their view, the Mu'tazila overstress the role of reason. [6]
Since then, the vast majority of Sunni scholars have considered the Mu'tazila as heretical. [7]
Eventually Sunnis rejected the theories of the Mu'tazilites, while the Twelver and Zaydī Shī'īs accepted a large part of them [8]
Although Sunnis considered Mu'tazilism to be a heresy, Mu'tazilite legal theory and its perspective on hadiths had a major impact on Sunni legal theory. [9]
In the same way that the Mu'tazilites opposed the Sunnis in theology [10]
Gimaret (1980) has written a detailed study on Mu'tazilite and Sunnite thought on the subject of human acts and the arguments theologians used to defend their positions. [11]
-- TheEagle107 ( talk) 20:43, 25 February 2023 (UTC)Reacting to the practical social consequences of the Kharijite view of sin, other Islamic factions—Mu'tazilites, Shi'ites, Murji'ites, and Sunnis [12]
"Mu`tazilism is no longer a sect or school of thought in Sunni Islamic societies...", which by inference implies Mu'tazilism once was a sect or school of thought in Sunni societies. More generally, the problem with most of this statements, taken out of context, is that they provide no sense of the time periods that they address. Now obviously when Ash'ari was studying under a well-known Mutazilite, they probably weren't considered "heretical". Then the theology went through a bad patch after al-Ma'mun promoted it in a somewhat authoritarian manner and then al-Mutawakkil repudiated it. But right there in the middle though, Mutazilism was the theology officially supported by the caliph. Most of the above quotes, without their context, don't really explain what the periods are that they are talking about. In modern times, there is also plenty of confusion about what the classical Mutazilites argued and what 'neo-Mutazilites' today argue, as outlined quite succinctly in the abstract here. Iskandar323 ( talk) 06:20, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
In the late eighth and ninth centuries, a Hanafi-Murjia orientation was strong in Isfahan, Rayy, and Khurasan,
while in Baghdad some Hanafis were Mutazilis and others were Sunnis. [13]
Because many thought the rationalism of the Mu'tazilites was extreme, Sunni Muslims often regarded them as heretics (Watt 1985, 55). Their ascendancy ended with the rule of the Sunni caliph al-Mutawakkil, who destroyed their movement. [14]
The Sunnis distinguished themselves from the Mu'tazilis who usually conducted more reasoning by leaving aside some hadiths which were considered irrelevant and weak, da'if. In some cases, such as on the issue of anthropomorphism, the latter eliminated some hadiths opposing their doctrine, although the hadiths were reliable, sahih. Consequently, while the Mu'tazilis were widely influenced by the ideas of philosophers, the Sunnis were completely impressed by those of the Ashab, and the salaf al-salih, and the reliable 'ulama' in the medieval period as well. [15]
Each branch of Islam has some central beliefs ( Usul al-Din). Sunni Muslims follow the six articles of faith ("It is to believe in Allah (God), His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Last Day, and that you believe in preordainment (destiny), its bad and good consequences.") and Shi'a Muslims follow the five roots of Usul al-Din (see: Twelver theology). However, all Mu'tazilis regardless of their differences agreed on five foundational doctrines or principles (Usul al-Din). These principles were:
For more details on these issues, see:
References
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link)
Page moved. Vegaswikian ( talk) 22:33, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
Mu'tazili → Mu'tazila – Not only Mu'tazila is the correct form of the Arabic معتزلة, it is also more popular, compare here:
As stated before, this is an opinion that is stated via a farfetched website based on economics.
The first 3 website that appear on google regarding the Mu’tazilites don't mention anything regard them being celebrated. I would rather take the BBC, Britania, or the Oxford Bibliographies that give a neutral introduction over a random quote from a random website chosen to cherry-pick the editor in questions opinion. The person who kept changing this and called me a "troll" even admitted it was a minority opinion on the edit history page. If I wanted I could also find a million sources stated the Muʿtazila were hated - but I am not biased so I would not.
Please removed the "celebrated" comment, because as stated above, the main sources regarding the Muʿtazila do not mention this.
The result of the move request was: MOVED. Hadal ( talk) 20:03, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: WP:RMEC: initiated by a sockpuppet, and no other support for the move request at this time. Dekimasu よ! 15:46, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
Mu'tazilism →
Mu'tazilites – per
WP:COMMONNAME.
And for consistency with former Islam-related sects such as
Kharijites, not "Kharijism",
Kaysanites, not "Kaysanism".
Kermanshehi (
talk)
16:18, 10 January 2024 (UTC)