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it's annexed. The article won't have Syrian mountain and Lebanon mountain, but not Israeli mountain. International Law is ambigious and interesting subject, but it doesn't change facts. In fact, the Israeli and Golan Heights articles are included in Israeli area, the ones referred to. Amoruso 19:32, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
That Mount Hermon is in Israel is an POV by some Israelis. It is not recognised in international law, so it should not be recognised by Wikipedia. Still, if you are still determined to push your POV, so this look like a matter for Wikipedia arbitration. Viewfinder 20:07, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
If it is not in Israel per international law then it does not belong in the category. Viewfinder 20:17, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Please refrain from any futher reverts of the page until consesus is reached, whether you violate 3RR or not, you shouldn't have revert wars.-- Konstable 21:35, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia is about facts. Not about opinions. Hermon is part of the Golan Heights, an area annexed to the state of Israel. Israelis live there and go about in the country and no one makes any difference between the area and any other in Israel. It is a district, cities, councils, it's fully endorsed by the whole population, it's a place for vacation for Israel, for agriculture, for energy supplies, for wildlife, for anything one can think of. Since there's no foreign population there, there is also no "occupation" there and therefore no local objection to this. It is in fact a very peaceful area with no disputes whatsoever.
Syria is in the position the Golan Heights are theirs. That's a political position. Since Arab states have obviously a majority in the U.N and Syria is a member of the S.C as well (israel never has been), then the U.N and S.C have several resoultions against Israel in the sense of the Golan Heights. These resoultions are declarative only, they're not binding since they weren't taken under chapter VII of the charter. International forum like this can't possibily be the criteria to change facts. This is the only basis to say that Golan is not in Israel. Scholars have easily articulated reasons why the Golan Heights is part of Israel also in international law - the historical Jewish contexts, the defensive war concept, the self defense concept, the original mandate/faisel weizmann agreement concept/san remo concepts, the violation of previous international borders by Syria concept....
All in all, this teaches us that International Law is another subject, another section, article or book. This can be addressed in a seperate section anywhere any editor would like. But the prospect of one thinking that endorsement of annexation is the only way to categorize is dead wrong.
For starters, like said, Golan is physically in Israel. This is all it takes in order to write "Cities in Israel". It doesn't say "Legitimately internationally recognised in the border of Israel cities". It simply says it's in Israel. Take a look at the Israelis, the authorities, the borders and everything and you'd realise it's a city in Israel. Else, we would need passports to go there and we don't.
Secondly, I wouldn't have minded to say "Israeli cities" but that's not how wikipedia defines the lists. It always lists "Cities in X" when X doesn't even exist, just to help, to famialrize , to guide the user. People travelling to Israel know they can go to the Golan and they want this information. This is a factual representation, an WP:NPOV .
Thirdly, this already has been recognised widely in wikipedia. Golan Heights are represented everywhere as in Israel including every area inside them. Even the U.N figure of the size of Israel includes the Golan Heights in the Israel article. The maps that show a line that shows the 1967 armstice lines -> This means that the areas are pending further negotation - yes, but it's' up to Israel to decide what to do with them as long it controls it - "illegal interantional law control" or not - Israel decides. As it is, Israel decided not to annex the West Bank and Gaza and therefore their status is disputed, some say it's already recognised to be Palestinian or occupied - note how international law has differnet opinions. But the Golan Heights and East Jerusalem were annexed and they're currently part of Israel controlled area - it is therefore in Israel as Israel is there - it's not invisible . This goes also for the question of the borders in the intro : One can't say that it's only in lebanon and syria because there's a whole another entitity there: Wikipedia can't simply ignore it because it bases itself on condenmation of it by a declarative U.N resoultion - wikipedia is NOT part of the U.N (What wikipedia is NOT), and even the U.N doesn't dispute the fact that it's currently in Israel - it simply tells Israel to exclude this or part from this from Israel in future talks (S.C resoultion 242) ---> pending developemtns in the future, we can have changes in accuracies. Right now we report the facts on the ground.
Therefore I believe wikipedia should stick to the facts on the ground like it generally does all the time. Not taking positions over who is entitled to what but who is where. Omitting Israel is treating it like a 1984 novel where facts are disappearing simply to meet the wishes and needs of one side of the conflict. Again, nobody is saying that the U.N position should be ignored - it can be written as much as one would like. But it's irrelevant for the changes made, which I believe must stay (btw this was actually the original version for a long time). Amoruso 11:52, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Let us now see if we can reach consensus. To start with, the article now states that the summit is in Israel. That is not the correct position. The highest point that is under Israeli administration is 500 metres below the summit. So whatever the result of this debate, the article needs to be changed.
It is not for me to use Wikipedia to discuss the rights and wrongs of the occupation or annexation. As far as Wikipedia is concerned, I have no personal opinion on that. But it is for me to enforce accuracy and above all consistency. Please go to Golan Heights, study the map that is shown, and read the article. The map and article show that Amoruso is wrong. Wikipedia does not endorse the Israeli position. Its map shows clearly and unambiguously that the Golan Heights are in Syria. It is consistent Wikipedia policy to endorse internationally recognised borders. If international mapping, including mapping exhibited by Wikipedia, shows that the Golan Heights are not within Israel, then it should not be stated on Wikipedia that Mount Hermon is in Israel, partially or otherwise.
As regards Amoruso's Golan population claim, there is a substantial Arab Druze population. While Israel may regard this population as Israeli, its military presence prevents dissent among this population and has, according to Golan Heights, imprisoned dissenters. The Golan Heights, like all of present day Israel, have been wholly Arab for most of the last two millenia. The population of what had been Palestine by Jewish settlers (or resettlers if you go back to Biblical times) did not resume until the 20th century.
The facts on the ground - the Israeli military occupation and administration - are reported in the article and I have never tried to delete them.
As for the facts on the ground determining the countries in which countries features are formally listed, contrary the claims made by Amoruso, Wikipedia consistently overrides these with information according to the borders shown in international atlases. See Kosovo, which Wikipedia shows within Serbia, despite the situation on the ground, which is that it administered by NATO, not by Serbia, and the local population is overwhelmingly Albanian and opposes its inclusion within Serbia. Wikipedia also - rightly - endorses the fact that Bilbao is in Spain, despite the fact that most of the local population, and the local Basque controlled administration, do not think it should be.
Here is another example. You will find Crossmaglen listed in List_of_villages_in_Northern Ireland, not List_of_towns_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland or any other Republic of Ireland related category, and rightly so, because the internationally recognised border places it within the United Kingdom. As for the local ground situation, a few years ago I drove from Dublin to Larne and, out of pure and possibly reckless noseyness, I took a detour. There was no local border presence on the international border at all, only "No partition, Join the Provos" graffiti. In Crossmaglen, the occasional Union Jack on isolated and heavily fortified police stations was outnumbered by multiple, towering tricolors, and in every other respect, the area was visibly republican, as if were part of the Irish Republic, and effectively under the control of republican militia. A few miles further north, there was a kind of no man's land, followed by British military checkpoints, in turn followed by high profile and dominant Union Jacks.
The article could duck the whole question of countries, but this still leaves the problem of what to do about List of countries by highest point, Har Meron (Israel's internationally recognised HP), and List of countries by northernmost point, which have come under attack by Israeli POV pushers on several occasions. It is essential that editors have the power to resist teams of determined nationalist POV pushers, including those working in teams. Unfortunately these pages are not often visited by viewers willing to edit, so using consensus is very difficult and the 3RR works in favour of the POV pushers.
If, as seems likely, yesterday's edits were part of a pro-Israeli attempt to use Wikipedia to cement Israel's claim, then this is POV pushing and is not a proper use of Wikipedia.
It should not be for Wikipedia to challenge internationally recognised borders, despite frequent differences with the reality on the ground, unless a clear consensus that it should do so emerges, which should be widely discussed prior to implemetation. At present Wikipedia goes by internationally recognised borders as shown on international maps and atlases, whatever the position on the ground, and nationalist POV editing to the contrary should be resisted, unless there is a clear and high level directive to the contrary. I urge other Wikipedians to help me to do this, and, in particular, I urge admins to help me to do this in response to nationalist, and often inflammatory, POV pushing teams without violating WP:3RR.
Meanwhile, if the article is not restored to exclude the Mountains of Israel and claim that it is in Israel, and no satisfactory compromise is forthcoming, I will start mediation proceedings.
Viewfinder 15:14, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Delete the word "israel" from borders with lebanon and syria and rephrase so it's clear we're talking about the summit. No further changes to introduction necessary on my part. keep the catgory "mountains in Israel" per wikipedia policy and precedent "Cities in Western Sahara" and so on. Seems fair I think. Amoruso 16:29, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
The intro repharsing proposal :
Mount Hermon (33°24′N 35°51′E; Hebrew: הר חרמון, Har Hermon; Arabic: جبل الشيخ, Jabal el-Shaiykh, Djabl a-Shekh, "mountain of the chief" and "snowy mountain") is a mountain in the Anti-Lebanon mountain range. Its highest point is 2,814 m (9,230 feet) above sea level. This summit is on the border between Syria and Lebanon and is under Syrian control while the southern and western slopes of Mount Hermon came under the control of Israel as a result of the Israeli victory in the 1967 Six-Day War. This part of the mountain and the Golan Heights were unilaterally annexed by Israel in 1980.
And again : have a look here : [2] it's all under "african countries", it has an area, seperate georaphy, everything, and it's not a country according to BASIC international Law. This is the clearest case, but of course faroe island, greenland and dozens more are available. This is wiki policy. Amoruso 16:38, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
This remains an area of disagreement. There are many categories involving non-sovereign territories. Scotland is a separate country in many ways, but it is not a sovereign country. The problem is, that we cannot categorise Golan Heights entities as both ".... in Israel" and "... in Syria", as though more than one country has sovereignty. So we are back to the question: are the Golan Heights in Israel or in Syria, or to put it more generally, does Wikipedia go with "de facto" situations imposed by military force, or those that are shown on international maps from what Wikipedia recognises as reliable sources and recognised internationally? That is still an area of disagreement. Viewfinder 17:31, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
~~ It is a bit different here, as Western Sahara and the Faeroes are not claimed by any countries other than Morocco and Denmark. The Golan is claimed by Syria and Israel. As well as the categories, there is also the problem of recurring edits to list of countries' highest points. Viewfinder 17:31, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
A side issue: re Israel, and the area source, List of countries and outlying territories by total area, there is inconsistency with the CIA given area, which excludes the Golan Heights. Imo, Wikipedia is contradicting the area shown within the international borders that it is showing, and should be amended, but the Mount Hermon discussion should be resolved first. Viewfinder 18:15, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Do we have an agreement then, leaving the other matters aside (highpest point and so on) to leave this category intact ? Because then we can unlock the page and move on. Amoruso 19:04, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Now take for example a tourist wanting to visit Israel or the Golan heights. He would search the category and won't find the place in Israel, thinking it's not here - he'll think he has to go to syria to visit the place but it's not true --> the place is in Israel. He would sign a passport only with Israeli authorities and travel in regular israeli civilian transportation between the different areas in Israel. This is why it's in Israel per the category, not per endorsement, but per categories in wikipedia. Amoruso 22:32, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
I have unprotected the page as there seems to be some agreement about reverting at least.-- Konstable 21:16, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Ta - I have put in the agreed text, I hope it is OK. Viewfinder 22:01, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
I restored the Hebrew to first, as the biblical history predates any of the political controversy, and is any event from where the mountain derives its notability. I'm also removing the citation request; it doesn't seem disputed that it is indeed a military early warning station. Cheers, Tewfik Talk 04:28, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
The text reads:
The southern and western slopes of Mount Hermon came under the control of Israel as a result of the Israeli victory in the 1967 Six-Day War.
Shouldn't this be:
The southern and eastern ... ?
-- Philopedia 11:31, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
The fact that part of Mount Hermon is under Israeli military rule does not mean that, in the eyes of the international community, any of it is in Israel. See Israel and in particular the maps in the Geography section. Viewfinder 10:00, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I am happy with the article as it now stands - although I will continue to watch it. Viewfinder 09:27, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Good to hear. Cheers, Tewfik Talk 17:47, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
So if a country unilaterarly annexes a region, it becomes part of the country? Come on Wiki people. wike up ! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.126.21.5 ( talk) 16:42, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
Since the majority of the mountain is in Syria and the rest in Lebanon it should be Arabic name before Hebrew. The Israelis have an illegal control of a part of the mountain since they are illegaly occupying southwestern Syria, but this doesn't mean anything. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.227.151.135 ( talk) 20:21, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
Hertz, please tell us what is POV about the fact that the 1981 Israeli annexantion of part of Mount Hermon was unilateral. You cannot simply dismiss one word that you personally do not happen to like as "verbose". Viewfinder ( talk) 09:16, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.68.95.65 ( talk) 16:06, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
This is perhaps related to the previous thread, but since the sides are new, I'm starting a new one. Israel has annexed the Golan Heights in 1981 and has controlled Mount Hermon both de jure and de facto. This is not recognized by much of the international community, but is not factually disputed. -- Nudve ( talk) 16:07, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
Factualy it is 100% Syrian soil illegaly occupied by the same people who occupy Palestine. -- Supreme Deliciousness ( talk) 17:25, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
Neither the summit or any part of it is in Israel.
[3] --
Supreme Deliciousness (
talk) 00:16, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
:Summit is not in Israeli part, but Hermon is part of Israel. if we'll check what is the UN position, Actually, Israel also has no capital and no clear borders with lebanon as well. Wikipedia is not a place for Political PoV, it's a place for presenting the facts and the fact is that M. Hermon is also in Israel, as well as that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel.
Sipio (
talk)
:::"There is no israeli part of the mountain", if what you say is true, so why every winter thousand of Israeli people come to visit the Hermon? why there is israeli ski resort on the mountain? you just keep ignoring the truth, and saying "There is no israeli part of the mountain" it is obvious political PoV. you are the one who needs to keep his Pov out of this article, because i think the article is fine as it's now.
Sipio (
talk)
::Fair enough for me, but seems like some people want to absolutely ignore that Israel has part of the mountain. The article is fine as it's now.
Sipio (
talk)
There be nothing ignore. "Israel" have no part of mountain. Whole world recognize it be Syria that IDF occupy by force.
Ani medjool (
talk) 22:06, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
That be because most legitimate resident of Golan height be chase off or kill by IDF during war and follow occupation. Area be occupy by force because Syria not allow to exercise free will to land that belong to it. Ani medjool ( talk) 22:33, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
Breein you comment be proof of why new admin need to take over responsible for the golan height mountain name discussion. It be apparently ok to personal attack me and no one warn you, but if me say something that other user find even remote unpopular, not even 10 second pass before I am threaten with block by certain admin. This happen time and time over. This unfair and show bias against me and other editors who try to bring truth to article and make more reflect of whole world view. Ani medjool ( talk) 23:32, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
:Ani medjool, what you're saying is redicilous, IDF soldiers has NEVER killed any Golan Heights residents. There are no IDF soldier in the Golan, except the border with syria and Lebanon. The situation of the Golan is much different than the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Golan Heights (and Hemon including on it) is integral part of Israel, it's not controlled by military control like West Bank. In every map in Israel, Golan is part of the country. Yes, you right, the world does not recognize it as part of Israel, but as I said, Wikipedia is not political site, wikipedia is for showing facts, and the fact is that Golan Heights and Hermon Mount are integral part of Israel. Have a nice day. --
Sipio (
talk) 18:18, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
I agree with the current version. "Israeli controlled Golan Heights" is accurate and unbiased. Viewfinder ( talk) 21:12, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
How is israeli control of the Golan "fully legal" ? "de-facto part of Israel, if not de-jure." Can you please tell me how many countries recognizes Golan as part of Israel? Provide source. -- Supreme Deliciousness ( talk) 10:44, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
Region is not in Israel: [4] -- Supreme Deliciousness ( talk) 10:23, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
Ip 96.39.52.46/138.16.24.148 (same user) has repetadly removed the summit map [5] [6] if he wants to remove it he should get consensus for the removal first at the talkpage. -- Supreme Deliciousness ( talk) 10:04, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
since mountain not in isreal and never be in isreal, do it really belong to Isreal wikiproject? By include it in wikiproject isreal be misleading and make people think it in isreal. Ani medjool ( talk) 23:50, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
Can anyone confirm where the peak is? Looking at the map, it looks like its just over the lebanese border, so either the peak isn't in Syria or the latitude/longitude numbers are wrong. -- Supreme Deliciousness ( talk) 20:53, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
Another POV push to claim occupied territory as being in Israel. Could somebody who wishes to retain such language please provide quality sources that say that Mt Hermon is in Israel? nableezy - 00:14, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
100% of Mount Hermon is in Syria and Lebanon, nothing of it is in Israel. Please stop your pov pushing Jiujitsuguy. -- Supreme Deliciousness ( talk) 08:15, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
it's annexed. The article won't have Syrian mountain and Lebanon mountain, but not Israeli mountain. International Law is ambigious and interesting subject, but it doesn't change facts. In fact, the Israeli and Golan Heights articles are included in Israeli area, the ones referred to. Amoruso 19:32, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
That Mount Hermon is in Israel is an POV by some Israelis. It is not recognised in international law, so it should not be recognised by Wikipedia. Still, if you are still determined to push your POV, so this look like a matter for Wikipedia arbitration. Viewfinder 20:07, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
If it is not in Israel per international law then it does not belong in the category. Viewfinder 20:17, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Please refrain from any futher reverts of the page until consesus is reached, whether you violate 3RR or not, you shouldn't have revert wars.-- Konstable 21:35, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia is about facts. Not about opinions. Hermon is part of the Golan Heights, an area annexed to the state of Israel. Israelis live there and go about in the country and no one makes any difference between the area and any other in Israel. It is a district, cities, councils, it's fully endorsed by the whole population, it's a place for vacation for Israel, for agriculture, for energy supplies, for wildlife, for anything one can think of. Since there's no foreign population there, there is also no "occupation" there and therefore no local objection to this. It is in fact a very peaceful area with no disputes whatsoever.
Syria is in the position the Golan Heights are theirs. That's a political position. Since Arab states have obviously a majority in the U.N and Syria is a member of the S.C as well (israel never has been), then the U.N and S.C have several resoultions against Israel in the sense of the Golan Heights. These resoultions are declarative only, they're not binding since they weren't taken under chapter VII of the charter. International forum like this can't possibily be the criteria to change facts. This is the only basis to say that Golan is not in Israel. Scholars have easily articulated reasons why the Golan Heights is part of Israel also in international law - the historical Jewish contexts, the defensive war concept, the self defense concept, the original mandate/faisel weizmann agreement concept/san remo concepts, the violation of previous international borders by Syria concept....
All in all, this teaches us that International Law is another subject, another section, article or book. This can be addressed in a seperate section anywhere any editor would like. But the prospect of one thinking that endorsement of annexation is the only way to categorize is dead wrong.
For starters, like said, Golan is physically in Israel. This is all it takes in order to write "Cities in Israel". It doesn't say "Legitimately internationally recognised in the border of Israel cities". It simply says it's in Israel. Take a look at the Israelis, the authorities, the borders and everything and you'd realise it's a city in Israel. Else, we would need passports to go there and we don't.
Secondly, I wouldn't have minded to say "Israeli cities" but that's not how wikipedia defines the lists. It always lists "Cities in X" when X doesn't even exist, just to help, to famialrize , to guide the user. People travelling to Israel know they can go to the Golan and they want this information. This is a factual representation, an WP:NPOV .
Thirdly, this already has been recognised widely in wikipedia. Golan Heights are represented everywhere as in Israel including every area inside them. Even the U.N figure of the size of Israel includes the Golan Heights in the Israel article. The maps that show a line that shows the 1967 armstice lines -> This means that the areas are pending further negotation - yes, but it's' up to Israel to decide what to do with them as long it controls it - "illegal interantional law control" or not - Israel decides. As it is, Israel decided not to annex the West Bank and Gaza and therefore their status is disputed, some say it's already recognised to be Palestinian or occupied - note how international law has differnet opinions. But the Golan Heights and East Jerusalem were annexed and they're currently part of Israel controlled area - it is therefore in Israel as Israel is there - it's not invisible . This goes also for the question of the borders in the intro : One can't say that it's only in lebanon and syria because there's a whole another entitity there: Wikipedia can't simply ignore it because it bases itself on condenmation of it by a declarative U.N resoultion - wikipedia is NOT part of the U.N (What wikipedia is NOT), and even the U.N doesn't dispute the fact that it's currently in Israel - it simply tells Israel to exclude this or part from this from Israel in future talks (S.C resoultion 242) ---> pending developemtns in the future, we can have changes in accuracies. Right now we report the facts on the ground.
Therefore I believe wikipedia should stick to the facts on the ground like it generally does all the time. Not taking positions over who is entitled to what but who is where. Omitting Israel is treating it like a 1984 novel where facts are disappearing simply to meet the wishes and needs of one side of the conflict. Again, nobody is saying that the U.N position should be ignored - it can be written as much as one would like. But it's irrelevant for the changes made, which I believe must stay (btw this was actually the original version for a long time). Amoruso 11:52, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Let us now see if we can reach consensus. To start with, the article now states that the summit is in Israel. That is not the correct position. The highest point that is under Israeli administration is 500 metres below the summit. So whatever the result of this debate, the article needs to be changed.
It is not for me to use Wikipedia to discuss the rights and wrongs of the occupation or annexation. As far as Wikipedia is concerned, I have no personal opinion on that. But it is for me to enforce accuracy and above all consistency. Please go to Golan Heights, study the map that is shown, and read the article. The map and article show that Amoruso is wrong. Wikipedia does not endorse the Israeli position. Its map shows clearly and unambiguously that the Golan Heights are in Syria. It is consistent Wikipedia policy to endorse internationally recognised borders. If international mapping, including mapping exhibited by Wikipedia, shows that the Golan Heights are not within Israel, then it should not be stated on Wikipedia that Mount Hermon is in Israel, partially or otherwise.
As regards Amoruso's Golan population claim, there is a substantial Arab Druze population. While Israel may regard this population as Israeli, its military presence prevents dissent among this population and has, according to Golan Heights, imprisoned dissenters. The Golan Heights, like all of present day Israel, have been wholly Arab for most of the last two millenia. The population of what had been Palestine by Jewish settlers (or resettlers if you go back to Biblical times) did not resume until the 20th century.
The facts on the ground - the Israeli military occupation and administration - are reported in the article and I have never tried to delete them.
As for the facts on the ground determining the countries in which countries features are formally listed, contrary the claims made by Amoruso, Wikipedia consistently overrides these with information according to the borders shown in international atlases. See Kosovo, which Wikipedia shows within Serbia, despite the situation on the ground, which is that it administered by NATO, not by Serbia, and the local population is overwhelmingly Albanian and opposes its inclusion within Serbia. Wikipedia also - rightly - endorses the fact that Bilbao is in Spain, despite the fact that most of the local population, and the local Basque controlled administration, do not think it should be.
Here is another example. You will find Crossmaglen listed in List_of_villages_in_Northern Ireland, not List_of_towns_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland or any other Republic of Ireland related category, and rightly so, because the internationally recognised border places it within the United Kingdom. As for the local ground situation, a few years ago I drove from Dublin to Larne and, out of pure and possibly reckless noseyness, I took a detour. There was no local border presence on the international border at all, only "No partition, Join the Provos" graffiti. In Crossmaglen, the occasional Union Jack on isolated and heavily fortified police stations was outnumbered by multiple, towering tricolors, and in every other respect, the area was visibly republican, as if were part of the Irish Republic, and effectively under the control of republican militia. A few miles further north, there was a kind of no man's land, followed by British military checkpoints, in turn followed by high profile and dominant Union Jacks.
The article could duck the whole question of countries, but this still leaves the problem of what to do about List of countries by highest point, Har Meron (Israel's internationally recognised HP), and List of countries by northernmost point, which have come under attack by Israeli POV pushers on several occasions. It is essential that editors have the power to resist teams of determined nationalist POV pushers, including those working in teams. Unfortunately these pages are not often visited by viewers willing to edit, so using consensus is very difficult and the 3RR works in favour of the POV pushers.
If, as seems likely, yesterday's edits were part of a pro-Israeli attempt to use Wikipedia to cement Israel's claim, then this is POV pushing and is not a proper use of Wikipedia.
It should not be for Wikipedia to challenge internationally recognised borders, despite frequent differences with the reality on the ground, unless a clear consensus that it should do so emerges, which should be widely discussed prior to implemetation. At present Wikipedia goes by internationally recognised borders as shown on international maps and atlases, whatever the position on the ground, and nationalist POV editing to the contrary should be resisted, unless there is a clear and high level directive to the contrary. I urge other Wikipedians to help me to do this, and, in particular, I urge admins to help me to do this in response to nationalist, and often inflammatory, POV pushing teams without violating WP:3RR.
Meanwhile, if the article is not restored to exclude the Mountains of Israel and claim that it is in Israel, and no satisfactory compromise is forthcoming, I will start mediation proceedings.
Viewfinder 15:14, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Delete the word "israel" from borders with lebanon and syria and rephrase so it's clear we're talking about the summit. No further changes to introduction necessary on my part. keep the catgory "mountains in Israel" per wikipedia policy and precedent "Cities in Western Sahara" and so on. Seems fair I think. Amoruso 16:29, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
The intro repharsing proposal :
Mount Hermon (33°24′N 35°51′E; Hebrew: הר חרמון, Har Hermon; Arabic: جبل الشيخ, Jabal el-Shaiykh, Djabl a-Shekh, "mountain of the chief" and "snowy mountain") is a mountain in the Anti-Lebanon mountain range. Its highest point is 2,814 m (9,230 feet) above sea level. This summit is on the border between Syria and Lebanon and is under Syrian control while the southern and western slopes of Mount Hermon came under the control of Israel as a result of the Israeli victory in the 1967 Six-Day War. This part of the mountain and the Golan Heights were unilaterally annexed by Israel in 1980.
And again : have a look here : [2] it's all under "african countries", it has an area, seperate georaphy, everything, and it's not a country according to BASIC international Law. This is the clearest case, but of course faroe island, greenland and dozens more are available. This is wiki policy. Amoruso 16:38, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
This remains an area of disagreement. There are many categories involving non-sovereign territories. Scotland is a separate country in many ways, but it is not a sovereign country. The problem is, that we cannot categorise Golan Heights entities as both ".... in Israel" and "... in Syria", as though more than one country has sovereignty. So we are back to the question: are the Golan Heights in Israel or in Syria, or to put it more generally, does Wikipedia go with "de facto" situations imposed by military force, or those that are shown on international maps from what Wikipedia recognises as reliable sources and recognised internationally? That is still an area of disagreement. Viewfinder 17:31, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
~~ It is a bit different here, as Western Sahara and the Faeroes are not claimed by any countries other than Morocco and Denmark. The Golan is claimed by Syria and Israel. As well as the categories, there is also the problem of recurring edits to list of countries' highest points. Viewfinder 17:31, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
A side issue: re Israel, and the area source, List of countries and outlying territories by total area, there is inconsistency with the CIA given area, which excludes the Golan Heights. Imo, Wikipedia is contradicting the area shown within the international borders that it is showing, and should be amended, but the Mount Hermon discussion should be resolved first. Viewfinder 18:15, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Do we have an agreement then, leaving the other matters aside (highpest point and so on) to leave this category intact ? Because then we can unlock the page and move on. Amoruso 19:04, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Now take for example a tourist wanting to visit Israel or the Golan heights. He would search the category and won't find the place in Israel, thinking it's not here - he'll think he has to go to syria to visit the place but it's not true --> the place is in Israel. He would sign a passport only with Israeli authorities and travel in regular israeli civilian transportation between the different areas in Israel. This is why it's in Israel per the category, not per endorsement, but per categories in wikipedia. Amoruso 22:32, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
I have unprotected the page as there seems to be some agreement about reverting at least.-- Konstable 21:16, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Ta - I have put in the agreed text, I hope it is OK. Viewfinder 22:01, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
I restored the Hebrew to first, as the biblical history predates any of the political controversy, and is any event from where the mountain derives its notability. I'm also removing the citation request; it doesn't seem disputed that it is indeed a military early warning station. Cheers, Tewfik Talk 04:28, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
The text reads:
The southern and western slopes of Mount Hermon came under the control of Israel as a result of the Israeli victory in the 1967 Six-Day War.
Shouldn't this be:
The southern and eastern ... ?
-- Philopedia 11:31, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
The fact that part of Mount Hermon is under Israeli military rule does not mean that, in the eyes of the international community, any of it is in Israel. See Israel and in particular the maps in the Geography section. Viewfinder 10:00, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I am happy with the article as it now stands - although I will continue to watch it. Viewfinder 09:27, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Good to hear. Cheers, Tewfik Talk 17:47, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
So if a country unilaterarly annexes a region, it becomes part of the country? Come on Wiki people. wike up ! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.126.21.5 ( talk) 16:42, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
Since the majority of the mountain is in Syria and the rest in Lebanon it should be Arabic name before Hebrew. The Israelis have an illegal control of a part of the mountain since they are illegaly occupying southwestern Syria, but this doesn't mean anything. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.227.151.135 ( talk) 20:21, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
Hertz, please tell us what is POV about the fact that the 1981 Israeli annexantion of part of Mount Hermon was unilateral. You cannot simply dismiss one word that you personally do not happen to like as "verbose". Viewfinder ( talk) 09:16, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.68.95.65 ( talk) 16:06, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
This is perhaps related to the previous thread, but since the sides are new, I'm starting a new one. Israel has annexed the Golan Heights in 1981 and has controlled Mount Hermon both de jure and de facto. This is not recognized by much of the international community, but is not factually disputed. -- Nudve ( talk) 16:07, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
Factualy it is 100% Syrian soil illegaly occupied by the same people who occupy Palestine. -- Supreme Deliciousness ( talk) 17:25, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
Neither the summit or any part of it is in Israel.
[3] --
Supreme Deliciousness (
talk) 00:16, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
:Summit is not in Israeli part, but Hermon is part of Israel. if we'll check what is the UN position, Actually, Israel also has no capital and no clear borders with lebanon as well. Wikipedia is not a place for Political PoV, it's a place for presenting the facts and the fact is that M. Hermon is also in Israel, as well as that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel.
Sipio (
talk)
:::"There is no israeli part of the mountain", if what you say is true, so why every winter thousand of Israeli people come to visit the Hermon? why there is israeli ski resort on the mountain? you just keep ignoring the truth, and saying "There is no israeli part of the mountain" it is obvious political PoV. you are the one who needs to keep his Pov out of this article, because i think the article is fine as it's now.
Sipio (
talk)
::Fair enough for me, but seems like some people want to absolutely ignore that Israel has part of the mountain. The article is fine as it's now.
Sipio (
talk)
There be nothing ignore. "Israel" have no part of mountain. Whole world recognize it be Syria that IDF occupy by force.
Ani medjool (
talk) 22:06, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
That be because most legitimate resident of Golan height be chase off or kill by IDF during war and follow occupation. Area be occupy by force because Syria not allow to exercise free will to land that belong to it. Ani medjool ( talk) 22:33, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
Breein you comment be proof of why new admin need to take over responsible for the golan height mountain name discussion. It be apparently ok to personal attack me and no one warn you, but if me say something that other user find even remote unpopular, not even 10 second pass before I am threaten with block by certain admin. This happen time and time over. This unfair and show bias against me and other editors who try to bring truth to article and make more reflect of whole world view. Ani medjool ( talk) 23:32, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
:Ani medjool, what you're saying is redicilous, IDF soldiers has NEVER killed any Golan Heights residents. There are no IDF soldier in the Golan, except the border with syria and Lebanon. The situation of the Golan is much different than the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Golan Heights (and Hemon including on it) is integral part of Israel, it's not controlled by military control like West Bank. In every map in Israel, Golan is part of the country. Yes, you right, the world does not recognize it as part of Israel, but as I said, Wikipedia is not political site, wikipedia is for showing facts, and the fact is that Golan Heights and Hermon Mount are integral part of Israel. Have a nice day. --
Sipio (
talk) 18:18, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
I agree with the current version. "Israeli controlled Golan Heights" is accurate and unbiased. Viewfinder ( talk) 21:12, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
How is israeli control of the Golan "fully legal" ? "de-facto part of Israel, if not de-jure." Can you please tell me how many countries recognizes Golan as part of Israel? Provide source. -- Supreme Deliciousness ( talk) 10:44, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
Region is not in Israel: [4] -- Supreme Deliciousness ( talk) 10:23, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
Ip 96.39.52.46/138.16.24.148 (same user) has repetadly removed the summit map [5] [6] if he wants to remove it he should get consensus for the removal first at the talkpage. -- Supreme Deliciousness ( talk) 10:04, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
since mountain not in isreal and never be in isreal, do it really belong to Isreal wikiproject? By include it in wikiproject isreal be misleading and make people think it in isreal. Ani medjool ( talk) 23:50, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
Can anyone confirm where the peak is? Looking at the map, it looks like its just over the lebanese border, so either the peak isn't in Syria or the latitude/longitude numbers are wrong. -- Supreme Deliciousness ( talk) 20:53, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
Another POV push to claim occupied territory as being in Israel. Could somebody who wishes to retain such language please provide quality sources that say that Mt Hermon is in Israel? nableezy - 00:14, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
100% of Mount Hermon is in Syria and Lebanon, nothing of it is in Israel. Please stop your pov pushing Jiujitsuguy. -- Supreme Deliciousness ( talk) 08:15, 7 July 2010 (UTC)