This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Movses Khorenatsi article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I asked SimonP for the another third opinion about professors David Marshall Lang and Ronald Grigor Suny, since he is familiar with this dispute. These are 2 sources, the use of which in the article is disputed:
The reassignment of Moses Khorenats'i from the fifth to the eighth century was mooted as early as the 1890's by A. Carriere; Professor C. Toumanoff summarizes the evidence in the journal Handes Amsorya, Vol. 75, 1961, cols. 467-76. Few if any scholars outside Soviet Armenia continue to defend the old fifth century dating, though in Erevan the venerable chronicler's discredited account of himself is still upheld with patriotic zeal.
David M. Lang. Reviewed work(s): "Moses Khorenats'i": History of the Armenians by Robert W. Thomson. Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London, Vol. 42, No. 3 (1979), pp. 574-575
The nationalist thrust of Soviet Armenian historiography extended into a fierce critique of foreign historians who attempted to question sacred assumptions in the canonical version of Armenian history. The holder of the chair in Armenian studies at Harvard University, Robert Thomson, had the temerity to assert that Movses Khorenatsi, whom Armenian historians had claimed as a fifth-century author, was actually an eighth-century writer with a clear political agenda that served his dynastic master. He went on to call him "an audacious, and mendacious, faker." "A mystifier of the first order," Movses "quotes sources at second hand as if he had read the original; he invents archives to lend the credence of the written word to oral tradition or to his own inventions; he rewrites Armenian history in a completely fictitious manner, as in his adaptations of Josephus.... Whoever Mo[v]ses was, he was not only learned but clever. His protestations of strict methodology were intended to deceive, to divert critical attention, and to encourage acceptance of his own tendentious narrative." Soviet Armenian scholars bitterly attacked Thomson's dating of Khorenatsi and his characterization of the author. In a sense, a foreigner had tampered with te soul of the nation.
Ronald Grigor Suny. Constructing Primordialism: Old Histories for New Nations. The Journal of Modern History, Vol. 73, No. 4 (Dec., 2001), pp. 862—896
Politologist Razmik Panossian writes the same as the above 2 historians: [1]
At present the article says:
Thomson's dating of Movses and his approach in evaluating the author's work was criticized when the English translation of History of Armenia appeared in 1978.
This creates an impression that when Thomson's work came out, it was universally criticized, which is not true. In fact, it met no serious criticism anywhere outside of Armenia. No non-Armenian source criticizing Thomson has been provided so far, and the above sources make it clear that criticism was coming mostly from the authors in Armenia and Armenian diaspora.
A third party opinion about the reliability of the above sources would be very helpful. Thanks. Grand master 05:56, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
Summary of my position:
There are several issues here, but first let me say some words on what Grandmaster wrote under this section:
To issues now. The main one is to avoid the impression given by Grandmaster's inclusions before he was last reverted, i.e. that only Armenian scholars criticized Thomson for reasons relating to historiographical agenda. This impression is:
I also have issues with each of the three diverging sources (Lang, Suny and Panossian):
Sardur ( talk) 09:42, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
Since SimonP was unable to provide third opinion on this issue, I asked for
WP:3o again.
Grand
master
05:03, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Just passing bye... and you editors look like you will never agree on this, is it not a good idea to have both and give the differing opinions? According to this school of though .. ... and there is a difference of opinion whereas this school of scholars holds these beliefs....( Off2riorob ( talk) 11:30, 14 July 2009 (UTC))
I cannot believe this article is back to pseudohistory mode, without even any "disputed" tag, after all this time. The facts are simple, and have long been established beyond reasonable doubt. The only question left open is, is this supposed to be the Armeniapedia article, or the Wikipedia article. To answer this, please check the url box in your browser. If it reads "wikipedia.org", please stop trying to turn this into an example of patriotic revisionism. The section title "hypercritical phase" is so blatantly out of line I can only laugh. How about talking about the period of Soviet Armenian nationalist revisionism as the "hypocritical phase"? Only, this phase never spilled outside the Armenian SSR and as such would rather classify as "suspension of the critical method in Soviet Armenian scholarship". -- dab (𒁳) 09:22, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
Not WP:AGF nor WP:Civil is a reason to add revisionist POV to such a significant historical article. Civility means to hear others, look on their sources, not do what you like with no respect to these kilometers of discussions! Gazifikator ( talk) 12:45, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
Incredible: there is an agreement on the lead, which was not easy to reach, and that's the thing which is first removed...
And actually, despite of what Grandmaster said, we did advance. Slowly, but certainly. Only non consensual things were reverted.
Sardur (
talk)
17:16, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
the only way forward here is quite clearly to ban the patriot trolls. This will happen in good time, there is no deadline. Until then, the very least that proper procedure demands would be to keep the {{ NPOV}} and {{ merge}} tags up. There is simply no way these will be removed before this is fixed.
There is no "agreement" that there should even be an article on Moses apart from the article on his History. Nothing is known about this person other than what is found in this single text. We do not keep articles on authors known exclusively through their own work.
In the meantime, if you consider yourself an Armanian patriot, have the very basic decency to stand down and let the encyclopedists handle this article. Your patriotism completely misplaced in this project, and it is not welcome. If you are an Armenain patriot, please resign yourself to editing articles about Italian operas or some other topic where your judgement is not clouded by your primal sentiments. -- dab (𒁳) 17:23, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
how about responding to the issues raised? The trolling is entirely yours, gentlemen. If you keep removing the cleanup tags I will seek administrative action. Indeed, the case is obvious enough that I would feel justified in taking administrative action against people revert-warring over the cleanup and merge tags. There is no way Moses of Chorene is going to be presented as a historical 5th century individual on Wikipedia. Simply none. This is Soviet era propaganda and has no place in a 21st century encyclopedia. You are not the first nationalist tag-team trying to exploit Wikipedia, and you won't be the last. Wikipedia is well equipped to deal with this sort of thing. It takes time, to be sure, but there is simply no way that you are going to prevail, so I would invite you to do everyone a favour and begin showing some intellectual honesty. -- dab (𒁳) 07:22, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
The vast majority of western scholars do not talk about "hypercritical" stage. It is an opinion of one or two persons. I don't see that Thomson, Toumanoff, Hewsen and others ever mention "hypercritical" stage. I think dab's edits were very good in general, and made the article a lot more neutral than it was. Plus, you also saw the opnion of Nishkid, who said that Lang and Suny are acceptable sources. Grand master 05:18, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
Suny is not an acceptable source because he provides no position Movses - nor would his opinion matter because he is a political scientist on Soviet affairs and not a specialist on Armenian studies per se. Nishkid's point was that Suny can be used as a source, that is, if he had anything relevant to say on topic. But the thing is that he has nothing relevant to say, much less Movses' dating. As for the word "hypercritical," simply read Lang's review of Thomson's work and see that even he accuses Thomson of exaggerating his criticism of Movses. The term hypercritical as a word relates to a period, and your claim that only a few scholars have used it does not make any sense. The reason is that there are very few scholars who have made evaluations on the evolution of the studies regarding Movses, and that to reject the word you have to provide sources which show that other scholars disagree with the usage of the word.
Furthermore, you have yet to justify the bullet point by point positions of Thomson on the main article on Movses.-- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 06:34, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
Sardur, those points don't truly belong to Thomson. He is just verbatim repeating what the earlier hypercritical scholars had stated. We can probably list at least four of those points in its respective section and just say that he brought up those claims once more in his translation of the work.-- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 16:15, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
Sardur, the disruptive editing is entirely yours. With all this prancing around, you are simply trying to lend credibility to a position that does not in fact have any credibility, in the best tradition of WP:UNDUE. You will note that all literature quoted that is supposed to back up this "historical 5th century Moses" originates in Soviet Armenia. All of it. If you are even going to continue this talkpage discussion, the least you could do would be presenting some piece of scholarly literature that does not originate in Armenian patriotism and that was published after 1990.
Can we please cut to the chase and merge this article already? It is a discussion of the authorship of the History. "Moses" has no existence outside of this discussion. -- dab (𒁳) 12:18, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
yeah, unlike the article as it stood when it wasn't even tagged for cleanup. Conybeare died in 1924. Move him to the "early studies" section and be done. What "consensus"? May I ask you to review the history of this "discussion", in the archive? This case had been fully resolvedback in aprill. Grandmaster ( talk · contribs) had presented absolutely satisfactory references. I am not even sure what valid points are supposed to have been raised since then. Grandmaster has shown angelic patience in putting up with all sort of nonsense. If you had a minimal amount of good faith, you could collaborate with Grandmaster to achieve a reasonable presentation of the history of this thing. If you can dig up some 19th century western scholar who believes in a 5th century Moses, that's very fine. The upshot remains that current scholarship is unambiguous about the later date, and the only reason we are even having this discussion is Armenian patriotic mysticism, not scholarship. There isn't a WP:SNOW chance that this article will end up presenting the 5th century date as historical or even possibly historical in Wikipedia's voice. It is extremely unlikely that there is even grounds on keeping this article separate from the article on the History. An yet instead of granting these very obvious points, you prefer to go out of your way to take potshots at me for pointing out the problems. That's of course in extremely poor style, but it is also understandable seeing that you cannot, of course, be expected to make a case that actually holds any water. -- dab (𒁳) 16:07, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
Grandmaster is obviously fully competent and entirely right. This is a simple matter of an encyclopedist editor running into a nationalist tag-team with an agenda. We get this all the time on Wikipedia. The project rules are built so that expertise will win out in the end, but it's often a tedious process. -- dab (𒁳) 10:28, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
References
Is the above name another name for this subject? If it is, then he does seem to be a saint of the Armenian Church church as per here. John Carter ( talk)
Why is this person called "Moses of Chorene" in the name of the article, yet the text of the article consistently calls him "Movses"? I'm not saying one form is better than the other, but I'd like to see a discussion here on the talk page about which form best fits Wikipedia guidelines -- then enforce consistency in all parts of the article. -- llywrch ( talk) 21:38, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
Was there a consensus for the move? I think it should be demonstrated that Khorenatsi is more commonly used in literature. Grand master 09:09, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
I get about twice as many hits on google books for "Moses of Chorene" than for "Movses Khorenatsi". I expected this to be due to a historical shift in usage, with "Moses of Chorene" being the more old-fashioned form, but I find that for any period I restrict my search to, the ratio of 2:1 is more or less perserved. E.g. the period 1980 to 2000, [11] [12] gives me a ratio of 358:153. Clearly both terms are valid and used in respectable publications, but if it comes down to picking one under WP:NAME, the name most commonly used in English is clearly "Moses of Chorene". -- dab (𒁳) 10:35, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
Your move was unnecessary. As some other editors have already commented above, the "Chorene" is not used in literature period, whether its in academic publications or popular works on the subject. You say that his name should be recognizable to anglophones and yet the current title follows the phonetic pronunciation that was invented by German and French scholars at the turn of the 19th century. I already outlined the problems with such a pronunciation above and it's quite clear that, after the 1960s, this archaic form of spelling was dropped by all authors in favor of the more accurate rendition of the name, i.e., Moses or Movses Khorenatsi (even the French translation drops the "Ch" in favor of the "Kh"). Unless the average anglophone is 90 years old, he or she will be more familiar with the style that has been employed by scholars for the past 40 years or so. If by classicist you mean someone who someone who studies the classics, then even they prefer Moses or Movses Khorenatsi, as evidenced by the title used in the English translation by Thomson or by the works published by scholars in Armenia. If you have no other argument to offer, then I shall move it back to its previous title.-- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 16:29, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
I'm actually surprised that this title remained the same after four years. Another editor recently modified the spelling recently to reflect the most widespread and accurately rendered name, i.e., Movses Khorenatsi. As stated above the "Ch" seems to be an importation of the 19th century European preference to render the Greek "X" with those two letters. While Moses of Chorene seems to have been the most common spelling during the 19th century I don't believe it would be correct to maintain it now for reasons stemming from accessibility and research. Virtually no author uses that form in books or articles published nowadays and for many it seems to reflect an anachronism, akin to spelling Kurds, for example, Koords, which at one time a century ago was also very prevalent.-- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 21:39, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
The article is categorized in the Category:Doctors of the Church, but the the word doctor isn't used anywhere in the prose of the article. Can anyone elaborate on any church that grants Moses of Chorene the title "Doctor of the Church", and provide a citation to support such a title? Gentgeen ( talk) 19:33, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
I removed hate speech inserted by Murcel. R.Thomson was criticized by his remarks, and some of this criticism is found in this article. Please avoid invectives and hate speech. This is unethical and can lead to sanction. Dehr ( talk) 06:15, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
![]() |
An image used in this article,
File:Movses Khorenatsi Matenadaran.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at
Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests March 2012
Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so.
To take part in any discussion, or to review a more detailed deletion rationale please visit the relevant image page (File:Movses Khorenatsi Matenadaran.jpg) This is Bot placed notification, another user has nominated/tagged the image -- CommonsNotificationBot ( talk) 11:54, 3 March 2012 (UTC) |
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Movses Khorenatsi. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 07:19, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
The dispute over Movses's dating is still basically unresolved and significant enough that there should be no confident statements about his date of birth in the lead or infobox. The same goes for his birthplace which is more or less a matter of speculation. Revolution Saga ( talk) 20:26, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Withdrawn. As far as I can see, no metrics other than Ngram were presented until recently, which caused the discussion to be repetitive and devoid of any arguments persuasive enough to change my mind. (Though, this requested move wouldn't pass anyways, since it was three to one.) The last comment made by Buidhe, however, shows that Movses Khorenatsi was more common in the last 13 years according to Google Scholar, which is what I asked for all along. Aintabli ( talk) 23:05, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
Movses Khorenatsi → Moses of Chorene – According to Ngram, Moses of Chorene is the most common name. Moses of Chorene is also an English name unlike Movses Khorenatsi, which makes it more preferable for the English Wikipedia. Aintabli ( talk) 17:13, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
I don't think Ngram is a metric we should be going by, at least based on a superficial reference to it just because it returns x number of hits. The lead provided to us by scholars is one example we can follow. For instance, in the revised edition of the Cambridge History of Byzantine Empire (2019) Robert Thomson gives his name as Moses of Khoren. I think we can infer why he chose to go by that format, but as I, and now AlphabeticThing9, have noted, the "Ch" construction is just plainly outdated and misleading. Really not sure why we're spending so much time on this one really inconsequential issue, but this conversation, I think, has exhausted itself. Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 23:59, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Movses Khorenatsi article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I asked SimonP for the another third opinion about professors David Marshall Lang and Ronald Grigor Suny, since he is familiar with this dispute. These are 2 sources, the use of which in the article is disputed:
The reassignment of Moses Khorenats'i from the fifth to the eighth century was mooted as early as the 1890's by A. Carriere; Professor C. Toumanoff summarizes the evidence in the journal Handes Amsorya, Vol. 75, 1961, cols. 467-76. Few if any scholars outside Soviet Armenia continue to defend the old fifth century dating, though in Erevan the venerable chronicler's discredited account of himself is still upheld with patriotic zeal.
David M. Lang. Reviewed work(s): "Moses Khorenats'i": History of the Armenians by Robert W. Thomson. Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London, Vol. 42, No. 3 (1979), pp. 574-575
The nationalist thrust of Soviet Armenian historiography extended into a fierce critique of foreign historians who attempted to question sacred assumptions in the canonical version of Armenian history. The holder of the chair in Armenian studies at Harvard University, Robert Thomson, had the temerity to assert that Movses Khorenatsi, whom Armenian historians had claimed as a fifth-century author, was actually an eighth-century writer with a clear political agenda that served his dynastic master. He went on to call him "an audacious, and mendacious, faker." "A mystifier of the first order," Movses "quotes sources at second hand as if he had read the original; he invents archives to lend the credence of the written word to oral tradition or to his own inventions; he rewrites Armenian history in a completely fictitious manner, as in his adaptations of Josephus.... Whoever Mo[v]ses was, he was not only learned but clever. His protestations of strict methodology were intended to deceive, to divert critical attention, and to encourage acceptance of his own tendentious narrative." Soviet Armenian scholars bitterly attacked Thomson's dating of Khorenatsi and his characterization of the author. In a sense, a foreigner had tampered with te soul of the nation.
Ronald Grigor Suny. Constructing Primordialism: Old Histories for New Nations. The Journal of Modern History, Vol. 73, No. 4 (Dec., 2001), pp. 862—896
Politologist Razmik Panossian writes the same as the above 2 historians: [1]
At present the article says:
Thomson's dating of Movses and his approach in evaluating the author's work was criticized when the English translation of History of Armenia appeared in 1978.
This creates an impression that when Thomson's work came out, it was universally criticized, which is not true. In fact, it met no serious criticism anywhere outside of Armenia. No non-Armenian source criticizing Thomson has been provided so far, and the above sources make it clear that criticism was coming mostly from the authors in Armenia and Armenian diaspora.
A third party opinion about the reliability of the above sources would be very helpful. Thanks. Grand master 05:56, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
Summary of my position:
There are several issues here, but first let me say some words on what Grandmaster wrote under this section:
To issues now. The main one is to avoid the impression given by Grandmaster's inclusions before he was last reverted, i.e. that only Armenian scholars criticized Thomson for reasons relating to historiographical agenda. This impression is:
I also have issues with each of the three diverging sources (Lang, Suny and Panossian):
Sardur ( talk) 09:42, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
Since SimonP was unable to provide third opinion on this issue, I asked for
WP:3o again.
Grand
master
05:03, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Just passing bye... and you editors look like you will never agree on this, is it not a good idea to have both and give the differing opinions? According to this school of though .. ... and there is a difference of opinion whereas this school of scholars holds these beliefs....( Off2riorob ( talk) 11:30, 14 July 2009 (UTC))
I cannot believe this article is back to pseudohistory mode, without even any "disputed" tag, after all this time. The facts are simple, and have long been established beyond reasonable doubt. The only question left open is, is this supposed to be the Armeniapedia article, or the Wikipedia article. To answer this, please check the url box in your browser. If it reads "wikipedia.org", please stop trying to turn this into an example of patriotic revisionism. The section title "hypercritical phase" is so blatantly out of line I can only laugh. How about talking about the period of Soviet Armenian nationalist revisionism as the "hypocritical phase"? Only, this phase never spilled outside the Armenian SSR and as such would rather classify as "suspension of the critical method in Soviet Armenian scholarship". -- dab (𒁳) 09:22, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
Not WP:AGF nor WP:Civil is a reason to add revisionist POV to such a significant historical article. Civility means to hear others, look on their sources, not do what you like with no respect to these kilometers of discussions! Gazifikator ( talk) 12:45, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
Incredible: there is an agreement on the lead, which was not easy to reach, and that's the thing which is first removed...
And actually, despite of what Grandmaster said, we did advance. Slowly, but certainly. Only non consensual things were reverted.
Sardur (
talk)
17:16, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
the only way forward here is quite clearly to ban the patriot trolls. This will happen in good time, there is no deadline. Until then, the very least that proper procedure demands would be to keep the {{ NPOV}} and {{ merge}} tags up. There is simply no way these will be removed before this is fixed.
There is no "agreement" that there should even be an article on Moses apart from the article on his History. Nothing is known about this person other than what is found in this single text. We do not keep articles on authors known exclusively through their own work.
In the meantime, if you consider yourself an Armanian patriot, have the very basic decency to stand down and let the encyclopedists handle this article. Your patriotism completely misplaced in this project, and it is not welcome. If you are an Armenain patriot, please resign yourself to editing articles about Italian operas or some other topic where your judgement is not clouded by your primal sentiments. -- dab (𒁳) 17:23, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
how about responding to the issues raised? The trolling is entirely yours, gentlemen. If you keep removing the cleanup tags I will seek administrative action. Indeed, the case is obvious enough that I would feel justified in taking administrative action against people revert-warring over the cleanup and merge tags. There is no way Moses of Chorene is going to be presented as a historical 5th century individual on Wikipedia. Simply none. This is Soviet era propaganda and has no place in a 21st century encyclopedia. You are not the first nationalist tag-team trying to exploit Wikipedia, and you won't be the last. Wikipedia is well equipped to deal with this sort of thing. It takes time, to be sure, but there is simply no way that you are going to prevail, so I would invite you to do everyone a favour and begin showing some intellectual honesty. -- dab (𒁳) 07:22, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
The vast majority of western scholars do not talk about "hypercritical" stage. It is an opinion of one or two persons. I don't see that Thomson, Toumanoff, Hewsen and others ever mention "hypercritical" stage. I think dab's edits were very good in general, and made the article a lot more neutral than it was. Plus, you also saw the opnion of Nishkid, who said that Lang and Suny are acceptable sources. Grand master 05:18, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
Suny is not an acceptable source because he provides no position Movses - nor would his opinion matter because he is a political scientist on Soviet affairs and not a specialist on Armenian studies per se. Nishkid's point was that Suny can be used as a source, that is, if he had anything relevant to say on topic. But the thing is that he has nothing relevant to say, much less Movses' dating. As for the word "hypercritical," simply read Lang's review of Thomson's work and see that even he accuses Thomson of exaggerating his criticism of Movses. The term hypercritical as a word relates to a period, and your claim that only a few scholars have used it does not make any sense. The reason is that there are very few scholars who have made evaluations on the evolution of the studies regarding Movses, and that to reject the word you have to provide sources which show that other scholars disagree with the usage of the word.
Furthermore, you have yet to justify the bullet point by point positions of Thomson on the main article on Movses.-- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 06:34, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
Sardur, those points don't truly belong to Thomson. He is just verbatim repeating what the earlier hypercritical scholars had stated. We can probably list at least four of those points in its respective section and just say that he brought up those claims once more in his translation of the work.-- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 16:15, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
Sardur, the disruptive editing is entirely yours. With all this prancing around, you are simply trying to lend credibility to a position that does not in fact have any credibility, in the best tradition of WP:UNDUE. You will note that all literature quoted that is supposed to back up this "historical 5th century Moses" originates in Soviet Armenia. All of it. If you are even going to continue this talkpage discussion, the least you could do would be presenting some piece of scholarly literature that does not originate in Armenian patriotism and that was published after 1990.
Can we please cut to the chase and merge this article already? It is a discussion of the authorship of the History. "Moses" has no existence outside of this discussion. -- dab (𒁳) 12:18, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
yeah, unlike the article as it stood when it wasn't even tagged for cleanup. Conybeare died in 1924. Move him to the "early studies" section and be done. What "consensus"? May I ask you to review the history of this "discussion", in the archive? This case had been fully resolvedback in aprill. Grandmaster ( talk · contribs) had presented absolutely satisfactory references. I am not even sure what valid points are supposed to have been raised since then. Grandmaster has shown angelic patience in putting up with all sort of nonsense. If you had a minimal amount of good faith, you could collaborate with Grandmaster to achieve a reasonable presentation of the history of this thing. If you can dig up some 19th century western scholar who believes in a 5th century Moses, that's very fine. The upshot remains that current scholarship is unambiguous about the later date, and the only reason we are even having this discussion is Armenian patriotic mysticism, not scholarship. There isn't a WP:SNOW chance that this article will end up presenting the 5th century date as historical or even possibly historical in Wikipedia's voice. It is extremely unlikely that there is even grounds on keeping this article separate from the article on the History. An yet instead of granting these very obvious points, you prefer to go out of your way to take potshots at me for pointing out the problems. That's of course in extremely poor style, but it is also understandable seeing that you cannot, of course, be expected to make a case that actually holds any water. -- dab (𒁳) 16:07, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
Grandmaster is obviously fully competent and entirely right. This is a simple matter of an encyclopedist editor running into a nationalist tag-team with an agenda. We get this all the time on Wikipedia. The project rules are built so that expertise will win out in the end, but it's often a tedious process. -- dab (𒁳) 10:28, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
References
Is the above name another name for this subject? If it is, then he does seem to be a saint of the Armenian Church church as per here. John Carter ( talk)
Why is this person called "Moses of Chorene" in the name of the article, yet the text of the article consistently calls him "Movses"? I'm not saying one form is better than the other, but I'd like to see a discussion here on the talk page about which form best fits Wikipedia guidelines -- then enforce consistency in all parts of the article. -- llywrch ( talk) 21:38, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
Was there a consensus for the move? I think it should be demonstrated that Khorenatsi is more commonly used in literature. Grand master 09:09, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
I get about twice as many hits on google books for "Moses of Chorene" than for "Movses Khorenatsi". I expected this to be due to a historical shift in usage, with "Moses of Chorene" being the more old-fashioned form, but I find that for any period I restrict my search to, the ratio of 2:1 is more or less perserved. E.g. the period 1980 to 2000, [11] [12] gives me a ratio of 358:153. Clearly both terms are valid and used in respectable publications, but if it comes down to picking one under WP:NAME, the name most commonly used in English is clearly "Moses of Chorene". -- dab (𒁳) 10:35, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
Your move was unnecessary. As some other editors have already commented above, the "Chorene" is not used in literature period, whether its in academic publications or popular works on the subject. You say that his name should be recognizable to anglophones and yet the current title follows the phonetic pronunciation that was invented by German and French scholars at the turn of the 19th century. I already outlined the problems with such a pronunciation above and it's quite clear that, after the 1960s, this archaic form of spelling was dropped by all authors in favor of the more accurate rendition of the name, i.e., Moses or Movses Khorenatsi (even the French translation drops the "Ch" in favor of the "Kh"). Unless the average anglophone is 90 years old, he or she will be more familiar with the style that has been employed by scholars for the past 40 years or so. If by classicist you mean someone who someone who studies the classics, then even they prefer Moses or Movses Khorenatsi, as evidenced by the title used in the English translation by Thomson or by the works published by scholars in Armenia. If you have no other argument to offer, then I shall move it back to its previous title.-- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 16:29, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
I'm actually surprised that this title remained the same after four years. Another editor recently modified the spelling recently to reflect the most widespread and accurately rendered name, i.e., Movses Khorenatsi. As stated above the "Ch" seems to be an importation of the 19th century European preference to render the Greek "X" with those two letters. While Moses of Chorene seems to have been the most common spelling during the 19th century I don't believe it would be correct to maintain it now for reasons stemming from accessibility and research. Virtually no author uses that form in books or articles published nowadays and for many it seems to reflect an anachronism, akin to spelling Kurds, for example, Koords, which at one time a century ago was also very prevalent.-- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 21:39, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
The article is categorized in the Category:Doctors of the Church, but the the word doctor isn't used anywhere in the prose of the article. Can anyone elaborate on any church that grants Moses of Chorene the title "Doctor of the Church", and provide a citation to support such a title? Gentgeen ( talk) 19:33, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
I removed hate speech inserted by Murcel. R.Thomson was criticized by his remarks, and some of this criticism is found in this article. Please avoid invectives and hate speech. This is unethical and can lead to sanction. Dehr ( talk) 06:15, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
![]() |
An image used in this article,
File:Movses Khorenatsi Matenadaran.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at
Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests March 2012
Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so.
To take part in any discussion, or to review a more detailed deletion rationale please visit the relevant image page (File:Movses Khorenatsi Matenadaran.jpg) This is Bot placed notification, another user has nominated/tagged the image -- CommonsNotificationBot ( talk) 11:54, 3 March 2012 (UTC) |
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Movses Khorenatsi. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 07:19, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
The dispute over Movses's dating is still basically unresolved and significant enough that there should be no confident statements about his date of birth in the lead or infobox. The same goes for his birthplace which is more or less a matter of speculation. Revolution Saga ( talk) 20:26, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Withdrawn. As far as I can see, no metrics other than Ngram were presented until recently, which caused the discussion to be repetitive and devoid of any arguments persuasive enough to change my mind. (Though, this requested move wouldn't pass anyways, since it was three to one.) The last comment made by Buidhe, however, shows that Movses Khorenatsi was more common in the last 13 years according to Google Scholar, which is what I asked for all along. Aintabli ( talk) 23:05, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
Movses Khorenatsi → Moses of Chorene – According to Ngram, Moses of Chorene is the most common name. Moses of Chorene is also an English name unlike Movses Khorenatsi, which makes it more preferable for the English Wikipedia. Aintabli ( talk) 17:13, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
I don't think Ngram is a metric we should be going by, at least based on a superficial reference to it just because it returns x number of hits. The lead provided to us by scholars is one example we can follow. For instance, in the revised edition of the Cambridge History of Byzantine Empire (2019) Robert Thomson gives his name as Moses of Khoren. I think we can infer why he chose to go by that format, but as I, and now AlphabeticThing9, have noted, the "Ch" construction is just plainly outdated and misleading. Really not sure why we're spending so much time on this one really inconsequential issue, but this conversation, I think, has exhausted itself. Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 23:59, 30 April 2023 (UTC)