![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 7 |
Strabo is identified as a Roman, but in fact he was Greek, as is correctly stated in the article about him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.73.31.50 ( talk) 18:47, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
Moses was a Black Man. Because of the Hebrews' population growth, the Egyptians decided they would impose upon them their own form of birth control. Pharaoh made a decreed that all Hebrew baby boys are killed at birth.
Exodus 1:22 And Pharaoh charged all his people, saying, Every son that is born ye shall cast into the river, and every daughter ye shall save alive This brings us directly to the story of Moses.
Moses was born a Hebrew - Israelite from the tribe of Levi (exodus 2:1-3). He spent 40 years in the house of pharaoh (Acts 7:23) and was raised as the Pharaoh's Grandson
Exodus 2: 10 And the child grew, and she brought him unto Pharaoh's daughter, and he became her son. And she called his name Moses: and she said, Because I drew him out of the water. Moses had the same physical characteristics because again, he was raised in the house of Pharaoh, as the grandson of Pharaoh, when Pharaoh ordered all Hebrew males to be killed at birth. If the Israelites were a white-skinned people, how could Moses the Hebrew survive (secretly) in the house of Pharaoh among black-skinned Egyptians for 40 years, and not be noticed.
Furthermore, after giving the decree (himself) to kill all Hebrew males, how could Pharaoh face and rule over his people, if he knowingly had one living in his house with all the rights and privileges of his own family? Moses survived 40 years in the palace of Pharaoh because he was a black man just as the Egyptians were.
This is deep, Pharaoh looked into the eyes of Moses as a baby and thought this was his own flesh and blood. He looked into the eyes of Moses as a teenager and thought this was his own flesh and blood. He looked into the eyes of Moses as a young man in his 20's and 30's and thought this was his own flesh and blood. Pharaoh saw Moses grow into a man of 40 and he thought this was his own flesh and blood grandson.
Just as Joseph's brothers couldn't tell the Hebrews from the Egyptians. Pharaoh couldn't either, or Moses would have been killed instantly.
Scripture tells us that Moses killed an Egyptian, after he saw him mistreating a Hebrew. So Moses had to flee from Egypt for his life, because Pharaoh found out and sought to kill him (Exodus 2:12-15). Pharaoh was trying to kill Moses because he found out Moses was a Hebrew and not his flesh and blood grandson.
Moses fled to the land of Midian (located in Saudi Arabia) where he helped seven daughters of the priest of Midian water their flock, after chasing away some bully shepherds. The girls went home to their father, Reuel and told him what happened. Exodus 2:16-19 16 Now the priest of Midian had seven daughters: and they came and drew water, and filled the troughs to water their father's flock.
17 And the shepherds came and drove them away: but Moses stood up and helped them, and watered their flock.
18 And when they came to Reuel their father, he said, How is it that ye are come so soon to day?
19 And they said, An Egyptian delivered us out of the hand of the shepherds, and also drew water enough for us, and watered the flock.
Notice they didn't say a Hebrew in Egyptian clothing saved us, they described Moses as a black-skinned descendant of Ham (Egyptian).
Further proof that Moses was "black" can be found in Exodus 4:6-7, In this passage,YAHAWAH, (The Creator's name in Hebrew) is showing Moses miracles so that he can prove to the children of Israel who sent him. YAHAWAH tells Moses to put his hand into his bosom, which he does. When he takes his hand out, it is LEPROUS (White) as snow.
Verse 7 says, YAHAWAH told Moses to put his hand back into his bosom, and it turned as his other flesh. Meaning that the rest of his body (skin) was other than white or the opposite of white, which is black.
YAHAWAH goes on to say in Verse 8 that if they (the Israelites) don't believe in the first sign (turning Moses rod into a serpent) then they will believe in the second sign which was changing his skin white. YAHAWAH is stating how powerful the second sign is, it will make a believer out of the stiff neck Israelites.
Exodus 4: 8 And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe thee, neither hearken to the voice of the first sign, that they will believe the voice of the latter sign. In the book of Numbers, chapter 12 verse 1, Moses' sister and brother, Miriam and Aaron spoke out against him because he married an Ethiopian woman, (not because she was black skinned, but because she was of another culture / Nation, read Acts 10:28:) their behavior angered YAHAWAH. Verse 10 says, He TURNED MIRIAM LEPROUS, WHITE AS SNOW. Once again if Miriam, who was a Hebrew, was white to begin with, what would have been the curse of turning a white skinned person white? YAHAWAH was angry with her, he showed his anger by turning her white with leprosy. If she was already white, why not turn her Jet Black?
Numbers 12:9 And the anger of YAHAWAH was kindled against them; and he departed.
10 And the cloud departed from off the tabernacle; and, behold, Miriam became leprous, white as snow: and Aaron looked upon Miriam, and, behold, she was leprous (white).
11 And Aaron said unto Moses, Alas, my Master, I beseech thee, lay not the sin upon us, wherein we have done foolishly, and wherein we have sinned.
12 Let her not be as one dead, of whom the flesh is half consumed when he cometh out of his mother's womb.-- Knighthonor ( talk) 09:26, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
WillBildUnion ( talk) 15:12, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
MOSES was born in nubian land and put in basket then the known story ...its real name in his his nubian language (MUNSA) regarding philological issues means ::forgotten::
researcher in Abrahamatic religions related to contemporary conscious —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.29.161.82 ( talk) 00:16, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
I am pretty sure Pharaoh Seti I ordered that all children should be killed (something like that).
12.34.35.152 ( talk) 15:36, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
From Moses to Mahaprabhu by Srila Saccidananda Bhaktivinode Thakura If the reader carefully considers, it will be found that the spiritual science gradually evolved from ancient times and became more simple, more clear and more condensed. The more impurities arising from time and place are removed, the more the beauties of the spiritual science brightly shine before us. This spiritual science took birth in the land of kusha grass on the banks of the Sarasvati river in Brahmavarta. As it gradually gained strength, this spiritual science spent its childhood in the abode of Badarikashram, which is covered with snow. It spent its boyhood in Naimisharanya on the banks of the Gomati river and its youth on the beautiful banks of the Kaveri river in the province of Dravida. The spiritual science ayyained maturity in Navadvip, on the banks of the Ganges, which purifies the universe.
By studying the history of the world, it is found that the spiritual science reached its peak in Navadvip. The Supreme Absolute Truth is the only object of love for the living entities. Unless one worhips Him with attachment, however, the living entity can never attain Him. Even if a person gives up all affection for this world and thinks of the Supreme Lord, He is still not easily achieved. He is controlled and attained by transcendental mellows alone. These mellows are of five types - shanta, dasya, sakya, vatsalya and madhurya.
The first mellow, shanta, is the stage in which the living entity surpasses the pains of material existence and situates himself in transcendence. In that state there is a little happiness, but no feeling of independence. At that time the relationship between the practitioner and the Lord is not yet established.
Dasya rasa is the second mellow. It contains all the ingradients of shanta rasa as well as affection. "The Lord is my master, and I am His eternal servant". This type of relationship is found in dasya rasa. No one cares much for any of the best things of this world unless they are connected with affection. Therefore dasya rasa is superior to shanta rasa in many ways.
Sakya is superior to dasya. In dasya rasa there is a thorn in the form of awe and reverence, but the main ornament in sakya rasa is the feeling of friendship in equality. Among the servants, one who is a friend is superior. There is no doubt about it. In sakya rasa all the wealth of shanta and dasya is included.
It is easy to understand that vatsalya is superior to sakya. A son gives more affection and happiness than any friend. Therefore in vatsalya rasa we find the wealth of four rasas. Although vatsalya rasa is superior to these other rasas, it appears insgnificant before madhurya rasa. There may be many secrets unknown between father and son, but this not the case between husband and wife. Therefore, if we deeply consider, it will be seen that all the above-mentioned rasas attain perfection within madhurya rasa.
If we go through the histories of these five rasas, it is clearly understood that shanta rasa was seen in the beginning days of India. When the soul was not satisfied after performing sacrifices with material ingredients, then transcendentalists like Sanaka, Sanatana, Sanat-kumara, Sananda, Narada and Lord Shiva all became detached from the material world, situated in transcendence and realized shanta rasa.
Much later, dasya rasa manifested in Hanuman, the servant of Sri Ramachandra. That same dasya rasa gradually expanded in the northwest and manifested in a great personality named Moses.
In the age of Dvapara, Uddhava and Arjuna became the qualified authorities of sakhya rasa. They preached this rasa throughout the world. Gradually tha rasa expanded up to the Arabian countries and touched the heart of Mohammed, the knower of religious principles.
Vatsalya rasa manifested throughout India in different forms at different times. Among the different forms, vatsalya mixed with opulence crossed India and appeared in a great personality named Jesus Christ, who was a preacher of Jewish religious principles.
Madhurya rasa first shone brightly in Braj. It is extremely rare for this rasa to enter the hearts of conditioned souls, because this rasa tends to remain with qualified, pure living entities. This confidential rasa was preached by Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, the moon of Navadvipa, along with His followers.
Till now, this rasa has not crossed beyond India. Recently a scholar from England named Newman realized something about this rasa and wrote a book about it. The people of Europe and America have not been satisfied with vatsalya rasa mixed with opulence as preached by Jesus Christ. I hope, by the grace of the Lord, in a very short time they will become attached to drinking the intoxicating nectar of madhurya rasa.
It has been seen tha any rasa that appears in India eventually spreads to the western countries, therefore madhurya rasa will soon be preached throughout the world. Just as the sun rises first in India and gradually spreads its lights to the West, the matchless splendor of spiritual truth appears first in India and gradually spreads to the Western countries. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.132.28.59 ( talk) 23:10, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
This section seems extra large, especially for this topic. It could be condensed, or maybe included in the article on Exodus. It also may be out of place in a Historiography section as it relates mostly to Biblical archaeology. -- Wikiwatcher1 ( talk) 18:46, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
Why has any reference to a date been removed from this article? Did Moses live in a timeless vaccuum? Does Moses have a millenium when he is alleged to have lived? Stevenmitchell ( talk) 22:30, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
This was removed today by another editor, replaced in error by Cluebot, and I removed it again for the same reason, this was an attempt to merge an article deleted at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Moses as symbol in American history, added by the same person who created the deleted article. We can't overturn the deletion process in this way. Dougweller ( talk) 12:57, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
{{ editsemiprotected}} Please have the picture of the statue of Moses be the first image. It makes sense that a picture of Moses be first rather than a picture of him as a baby with other people. 174.125.94.231 ( talk) 05:52, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
The section on Michelangelo's horned statue links to a church of St. Peter in Venice, whereas the statue is actually in the Basilica di San Pietro in Vincoli. The correct link should be this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilica_di_San_Pietro_in_Vincoli (Apologies if this is something I could have fixed myself, but the article seems to be protected, as well it probably should be, considering its subject.)) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.84.55.185 ( talk) 10:35, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
Fixed --
Wikiwatcher1 (
talk)
08:04, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
{{editsemiprotected}}
The following should be added to the Christian's View of Moses' Life:
The body of Moses shall never be found because Michael the Archangel retrieved the body of Moses immediately after Moses' death (Jude 9, NIV). In addition and even more importantly, Moses appeared in the transfiguration with the Lord Jesus Christ along with Elijah (Math 17:2, Mark 9:2, NIV). The transfiguration is a foreshadowing of the resurection of those who are in Christ and therefore, eternal life. Elijah did not see death but was translated into the presence of God (IIKings 2:11-12, NIV). Therefore, Elijah, already in the presence of God, together with Moses, whose body was recovered by Michael the Archangel and was then also in the presence of God, is transfigured along with the Lord Jesus Christ, who came from the presence of God and will be raised unto eternal life after his death on the cross. The transfiguration that included Moses, with our Lord Jesus Christ, and Elijah, is therefore a promise that, our mistakes aside, God will honor our faith in Him and bring us into His Presence, and therefore, eternal life. This is the promise for all believers in our Lord and Savior Jesus the Christ.
Mrmusumeci (
talk)
14:56, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
Not done: Welcome. Please read the current section for an example of a neutral, encyclopedic tone. If you want to add to the section, please detail what you would like to add in a 'please change X to Y' degree of detail and use a neutral tone. Thanks,
Celestra (
talk)
16:30, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
{{editsemiprotected}}
The following should be added to the Christian's View of Moses' Life: The body of Moses was taken by Michael the Archangel who retrieved the body of Moses immediately after Moses' death (Jude 9, NIV). In addition and even more importantly, Moses appeared in the transfiguration with Jesus Christ along with the prophet Elijah (Math 17:2, Mark 9:2, NIV). The transfiguration is a foreshadowing of the resurrection of those who are in Christ, and therefore, will experience eternal life (John 11:25). Elijah did not see death but was translated into the presence of God (II Kings 2:11-12, NIV). Therefore, Elijah, already in the presence of God, together with Moses, whose body was recovered by Michael the Archangel and was also in the presence of God, is transfigured along with Jesus Christ, who came from the presence of God and was raised unto eternal life after his death on the cross (John 20:17). The transfiguration that included Moses, Jesus Christ, and Elijah, is therefore a promise that, mistakes aside, God will honor those who place their faith in Him and bring them into His Presence, and therefore, eternal life (reference the thief on the cross, Luke 23:43).
Mrmusumeci (
talk)
22:41, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
Not done: I don't see how this is fundamentally (no pun intended) different than the previous request. This is not the place for a religious tract; this section describes how Christianity in general views Moses. Please read it. If you have anything to add in an equally neutral and encyclopedic tone, please make another request. Thanks,
Celestra (
talk)
23:17, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
Why are there no historical dates in the article for Moses existence? Certainly academic scholarship has been able to approximate dates for certain events in his life. However, this article appears to have no reference to any dating whatsoever... That leaves it as a very unencyclopaedic article. Stevenmitchell ( talk) 22:35, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
You want to read Moses#Historicity, which does have "historical dates", such as the quoted "possibility of a Moses-like figure in Transjordan ca 1250-1200 [BC]". Please read the entire article before complaining about what is or is not in it. -- dab (𒁳) 09:40, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
Could you please add a translation of the inscription of the Russian icon, for those of us who don't know Slavonic? Thanks! -- 77.7.155.77 ( talk) 12:11, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
This page is locked to prevent modification of the biography of a living person?
Really?
I'm pretty sure none of the Abrahamic faiths regard Moses as still living. So - is this a Scientology thing? Dumb. Dumb. Dumb. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.8.5.105 ( talk) 18:55, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
This page is semi-protected because of vandalism.
It is NOT "locked to prevent modification of the biography of a living person". 71.109.146.207 ( talk) 16:36, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
This template ought to be deleted outright. It is not of encyclopedic value and is pure trivia. Why is it featured so prominently here? Why is it here at all? Why not a template listing Biblical figures by the number of times they are mentioned in the Bible, the number of spouses or children they had, or simply by alphabetical order? The template is WP:UNDUE. Please remove it. Griswaldo ( talk) 04:26, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
I note that no editors are talking about applicability to Moses, but only to general applicability as if this is already a WP:TFD and as if WP:NOTVOTE doesn't apply. The question is whether comparison of Moses' age to other Biblical figures is appropriate. Well, sure enough, this article quotes Easton's Dictionary on that very point. I've also seen it argued that the 3-year gap with Aaron assigns Aaron a "fourth clan" among the traditional three Levitical clans. Comparison with Joshua (110) is also prevalent, and the Talmud has exceeding detail on age comparisons and significances. Even the primary text, such as in Moses' personal genealogy in Ex. 6, makes clear that age comparison is significant by listing ages only for Levi, Kohath, and Amram, rather than anyone else who is not a direct forebear of Moses. I'm not bothering to search sources right now because they are so widespread it takes awhile to find the most reliable. Now you could make a different case, as G hints, and say that the template was misplaced or should be on hide status, which might have standing in undue-weight and are fine solutions, as no undue weighting was intended, only graphic/text flow. In short, ample sources indicate such a comparison is encyclopedic, and this template has amicably and stably served that function since its inception. JJB 15:09, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
Doug, it is correct, please read the first link I posted, where your continuation of this topic should continue per WP:MULTI, unless you have something to say about Moses. JJB 16:02, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
G, per WP:TALK, "Stay on topic: Talk pages are for discussing the article, not for general conversation about (other subjects). Keep discussions focused on how to improve the article. Irrelevant discussions are subject to removal." I am the only one talking about Moses, you are cutting-and-pasting arguments. We have followed each other well so far in this discussion on trimming longevity articles, but now you are pointedly breaking basic talk rules and not sticking to the subject. The fact is that "Aaron 123 Moses 120" and the like are very well-sourced subtopics for this article. There is in fact no consensus to delete from this article, only to do something that should be discussed by a wider group, as I first said. You are also not interacting with my compromises to demote or hide the template. JJB 17:58, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
What significance does a Biblical template of longevity have? First off, it provides a useful example of the beliefs of a major culture...the Judeo-Christian culture...regarding longevity. Note that in Islam, we also have longevity: Jesus died at age "120" in the Koran, although the Christian Jesus died at 33 1/2 years. Why the discrepancy? A lot of this has to do with the fact that extreme age is seen as honorific and age "120" is the age that the Biblical Moses lived to. Islam denies the resurrection and crucifixion, so age 33 is out. But Islam still reveres the words of Jesus as a prophet, so a semi-mythical age association of "120" is made.
It's a shame that people like you can't tell the difference between a video game and encyclopedic material. Many, many Christian scholars have analyzed Biblical ages, pointing out that various ages are associated with sin and punishment or blessing and life fulfillment. Whether the template needs cleanup is irrelevant. That people like you deny its importance without even giving it a thought, shows that too often, arguments on Wikipedia have devolved into blogger-style disputes, rather than an honest discussion of content. Ryoung122 18:55, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
It is strongly recommended that those who can actually edit this article, change the references "Red Sea" to "Sea of Reeds" or incorporate the "Sea of Reeds" in the text when ever "Red Sea" is mentioned. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.80.152.175 ( talk) 11:58, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
I agree. Also there are references which suggest that Moses was able to predict solar eclipses. That is how his staff turned into the largest snake that ate all the others. The snake was the "length of the cast shadow". Egyptians used analemmas to time their agricultural processes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.163.128.42 ( talk) 13:53, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
Lisa, since this is the first removal of material on this page, i shall make additional review of the sources. However, you must note that [WP:RS] is not equal to [WP:NOR], so the provided reason for removing my edit is not entirely solid by mentioning them both. Never the less, i shall ignore your mistake, since [WP:RS] is legitimate claim in this case until the sources are reviewed. In addition, you are advised not to rely on such statements as as we have seen before, since you do not represent any judging body or wikipedian authority (refer to yourself as singular). Finally, i would like to remind you that [WP:5P] clearly says you do not own the article and must avoid of personal attacks (Wikipedia is free content - no editor owns any article; Wikipeadians should interact in a respectful and civil manner - "...avoid of personal attacks"). I hope you understand. Greyshark09 ( talk) 21:28, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
How about disentangling the Exodus story from the later legends and putting them in two separate sections? PiCo ( talk) 04:48, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
makes sense, also The Exodus has its own article, and we do not need more than a brief summary of that for the purposes of this article. -- dab (𒁳) 14:23, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
The section contains this sentence: "According to Genesis 46:11, Amram's father Kehath immigrated to Egypt with 70 of Jacob's household, making Moses part of the second generation of Israelites born during their time in Egypt." This seems like OR to me. After all, between Jacob coming to Egypt and Moses leading the Exodus are (according to Exodus 12:40) 200 to 400 years. ≡ CUSH ≡ 09:20, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
Yes. Also, the narrative section is far too long and needs to be shortened to about half its present length. It isn't the point of this article to retell the biblical narrative in every detail. There are enough online bibles, and people can simply go and read the Book of Exodus if they are interested in the narrative. -- dab (𒁳) 16:07, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
In my view name Mosheh is clearly an epithet of a "deliverer", which makes perfect sense in view of the Exodus tradition. Nevertheless, the Hebrew text itself gives an aitiological myth for the name, deriving it from the scene where the baby is drawn out of the river.
We should also keep in mind that the name Mošeh is only recorded in the Masoretic text. Strictly speaking, the Hebrew text of antiquity just records mšh, and you can't analyze that for grammatical form. But I don't think there is any doubt that the name was Mošeh from at least 300 BC, and probably also in 500 BC when the text was redacted, because the LXX rendition is Mωϋσῆς.
Following Gesenius, the article is simply saying that the traditional explanation, verifiably dating to antiquity, is "the one who was drawn out", while modern etymologies may prefer "the one who draws out", i.e. "Saviour", but then there are also other modern etymologies which follow Josephus in comparing Coptic (Egyptian). -- dab (𒁳) 12:54, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
I like all this, but I read that Mose was a common name in Egypt... Isn't that an epithet?
Yes, as far as I know Mose is only recorded in Masoretic maybe someone smart could compare the dates for when cartouches were used to see if the dates match. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.49.136.5 ( talk) 18:18, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
The problem is that Moses isn't a historical character. If you find a cartouche sensationally mentioning Moses, you should announce the discovery in scholarly literature, not on Wikipedia. Egyptian ms is an element in names such as Tuthmose, Ahmose etc. The "mose" spelling is just the conventional Egyptological pronunciation. There is no reason to assume that it has anything to do with Hebrew Mosheh. -- dab (𒁳) 18:35, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
{{edit semi-protected}}
From the article on Moses - According to the
Book of Exodus, Moses was born in a time when his people, the
Children of Israel, were increasing in number and the Egyptian
Pharaoh was worried that they might help Egypt's enemies. Moses' Hebrew mother,
Jochebed, hide him when the Pharaoh ordered all newborn Hebrew boys to be killed.
The above passage should be amended to read "hid him" not "hide him" Paul222148 ( talk) 14:04, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
My understanding is that there's some debate as to whether Moses had one, two, or three wives. Is this in fact the case? If so, it seems as though it bears mentioning in the article. I'm no expert in this field, and would be interested to hear someone with more authority weigh in. Mattymatt ( talk) 01:38, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
I'm surprised this page doesn't once list the alleged date, circa 1400 BCE, of Moses' life (Ex. 6:16-20). That's one of the most basic and important starting points of any biography. Here's a ref link for it. http://www.jewfaq.org/moshe.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jadon ( talk • contribs) 18:13, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
To be fair, the "In Judaism" parts of this article need improvement. The Moses in Rabbinic Literature article is a joke. Also, dates for Moses in Early Christian tradition would be of interest. Jerome apparently places the birth of Moses at 1592 BC. Needless to say, these sources also have the birth year of Abraham, Noah and Adam. They are interesting in their own right, but they have nothing to do with historicity. -- dab (𒁳) 13:03, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
Can you give a reference for your claim that in Biblical chronology Moses was born in AM 2146 (2226-80)? I mean, I have just given the Seder Olam claim the benefit of doubt, but it's not like it's actually referenced. Ussher (1658) says AM 2385. Seder Olam Rabbah allegedly says 2368. Our Biblical chronology article says 2367 (also no reference). Now you insist on an "unambiguous" AM 2146? I have tried to accommodate these dates in a brief summary in the lead, but can you please bother to provide references (better than jewfaq.org) before calling for the inclusion of such stuff? -- dab (𒁳) 13:26, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
Currently, it is both 2011 CE and 5771 AM (in the Rabbininc Jewish tradition; assumed stated from now on). This means that 3761 AM was 1 CE. However, if I recall correctly, there was no 0 CE, and year 3760 AM corresponds to 1 BCE. As such, that would require subtracting 3761 from dates prior to 3760 AM to get the BCE analogue. This would make Moses's life from 1393 BCE until 1273 BCE. Am I mistaken? -- Avi ( talk) 22:24, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
There is also the problem of Gregorian vs. Julian years. This makes for a difference of two years over this period. Then there is the Missing years problem, which basically says that the modern Jewish calendar is off 165 (or 163? Julian? Gregorian?) years relative to the ancient Jewish calendar. It's complicated, which (as PiCo says) is why we should base it on literature instead of figuring it out ourselves. -- dab (𒁳) 10:32, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
Shouldn't more of the Moses#Moses in Hellenistic literature be moved to its "main" page? The section is as big as Moses in Hellenistic literature. There should just be a summary in the section.-- Zakteh2 ( talk) 16:37, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
Having studied the story of Mose's, as well as Hieroglyphics, I believe I can make some coherent comments. Pharoh's daughter first identified the baby by hearing it -mesu / -mose. Next she tried to see where he was: m' ssa (in the shallow water?), and m' sha (in the reeds?). This created several different spellings in Egyptian; not to mention further translations. Later, when he was written as a cartouche, he was referred to as the baby drawn out (of the marsh), because the Faroh's daughter's arm was added (perhaps this was the first formal reference).
reference: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=507558852701584314#
Why are people so myopic and try to prove what's in the Bible by quoting the Bible? Chinese have a saying, "You can't see the mountain when you are in the mountain." To see the big picture, you have to step away. The bigger the mountain, the further away you have to step. The Jews wrote the Old Testement during their Babylonian Captivity in the 6th century B.C. They learned of the well-known old story of the Akkadian, Sagon the Great who, as a baby, was pulled from the river in a reed basket by a gardener. They took the story and made it their own and gave it to their "savior". Moses is not a "name", it's a title. Many Egyptian pharoahs had that title, i.e. Ramoses, Ahmoses, Tutmoses, etc., all well before the Jews wrote their books. If the leader of the Exodus is a "prince of Egypt", he was probably a well educated man and should be well versed in Akhanaton's monotheism claims. As he needed unquestioned obedience when he failed to bring his people to the promised land but got them lost in the desert, he proclaimed Yehweh, the old Israelite God of Host worshiped by Abraham, their one and only god for the band of wanderers. He never claimed Yehweh was the one and only "God" for all people. If you ever read the Bible, you will know that Yahweh is an extremely racist vicious bigot. He was not even able to keep the few tribes of Jews in line. The kingdoms the Jews created were very small and did not last very long. So much for this all mighty Yahweh. When he failed to protect his "chosen people", he blamed the Jews. Christianity and Islam gained supremacy by violence and massacre, the more pagants you slaughter, the greater your sainthood. Have you noticed that only little children sees the world in black and white and their parents are all powerful? That's the simple religion of this simple people to reflect their unsophisticated society. Grown-ups know better. That's why all civilized societies had polytheism where gods were many and complex to reflect their multifaceted cultures. -- VimalaNowlis ( talk) 19:59, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
im of the cohen/levite tribe and i found that when describeing the levite preists in this section would be more informative by the real name given to them they were cohen preists not levite's there is a blood difrence in levites and cohen tho they derive from the same tribe . the levites are the protectors of the cohen hipreist. if some one could change that that would be great i find it dishonest. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.234.196.204 ( talk) 21:45, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
the herbrew word for authanticty is Kohanim —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.234.196.204 ( talk) 21:52, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
{{edit semi-protected}}
<The "law of Moses" was discovered in the Temple during the reign of king Josiah (r. 641–609 BCE) probably corresponds...>
likely meant to have relative pronoun before word <was> (eg <which was discovered>) Nickholbrook ( talk) 20:25, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
The name of Merneptah appears in the middle of this article with no explanation - at the very least it neds wikilinking, and mentioning as the "Pharaoh of the Exodus", if that is what is intended. 109.154.68.162 ( talk) 20:37, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
The article says that his father-in-law's name is Hobab (The Shepherdess's Father) , that was the name of his brother-in-law. His father's name as is well known was Jethro. Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jethro_(Bible) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.134.45.100 ( talk) 12:58, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
In Rabbinical tradition Jethro is attributed to have 7 different names (appearing in different places in the bible): http://www.oztorah.com/2009/02/yitros-7-names-yitro/ Yitro's 7 names – Yitro. People’s names in the Bible all have a special meaning. In the case of Jethro – in Hebrew Yitro – there are seven names and seven meanings, according to rabbinic midrash. His two main names are connected with a root that means “additional” – he was “Yitro” because he performed extra good deeds and “Yeter” because he caused extra texts to enter the Torah. He was “Chovav” because he was beloved of God, “Re’u'el” because he was God’s friend, “Chever” because he was a close associate of the Almighty, “Puti’el” because he abandoned idolatry, and “Keni” because he was zealous for God. YSchary ( talk) 09:39, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
To promote an NPOV, then it's reasonable to paraphrase a narrative. So just because the article says that the burning bush was not consumed, that doesn't mean it wasn't consumed - it means the Bible says it wasn't consumed. You can't get more neutral than that.
In contrast, the word 'claims' is a loaded term, since it carries an implication that what is being claimed is not true. Therefore the phrase 'scripture claims' is further away from the NPOV that Wikipedia is trying to promote. I hope you see I'm not saying anything about whether the bush was consumed or not, just trying to promote an academic neutrality. Asnac ( talk) 17:55, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
This line reflects bias: "Historically, the Exodus narrative can be traced to the 7th century BCE kingdom of Judah, where it acts as a founding myth presented by the Yahwist faction."
That is some scholar's interpretation, and should be listed as such. Articles have to be closely monitored to not reflect bias. Thus, there in contentious matters, statements should be predicated by "According to some scholars," etc. Wikipedia is not a forum for choosing sides or favored positions, but for presenting encyclopedic matter that is wholly without bias. Religious viewpoints should be presented alongside the various different (and oftentimes contradictory) scholarly ones, with each cited by the proponent of the theory. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.191.75.249 ( talk) 23:27, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
At the moment this section - essentially a summary of the stories in Exodus-Numbers - is organised according to headers that have no relationship to the various books. Wouldn't it be better to organise the events according to the books they're found in - Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers? PiCo ( talk) 07:47, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
The recent revision entered the following text: "Prominent archaeologists and Egyptologists dispute the existence of Moses as well as the veracity of the Exodus story, citing logical inconsistencies, new archaeological evidence, historical evidence, and related origin myths in Canaanite culture.[3][4][5]"
While all entries of Biblical stories and characters may be subject to biblical criticism and archeological dogma (if I can't find it, it didn't exist), I question the appropriateness of placing this in the first paragraph.
All historical figures (e.g., entries in Wikipedia) can be called into question - yet I do not see these promeniently displayed in other entries: e.g., for example, the actual source material on Alexander the Great is not first hand, yet few doubt his existence, based on human history and achievements.
The fact that an entire people witnessed Moses and his life, which were recorded in a book that has some 6 billion copies printed (and read?) in some 2000 languages - the Bible ( http://www.ipl.org/div/farq/bestsellerFARQ.html)- seems to be reference enough, even if the authorship that book is debatable (heaven or earth).
Needless to say, while faith and historical records are not always aligned nor reconcilable,in an entry about a faith-based figure, it would seem more reasonable from an editing point of view as well as a neutral point of view, to locate a minority opinion that questions the very existence (validity?) of an entry under a separate cateogry at the end.
My proposal is to relocate this debatable sentence mentioned above under a new subsection of the Modern reception section labaled Biblical / Archeological Criticism YSchary ( talk) 08:19, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
If Moses was not a biblical character, you can bet that there would be no dispute of his existence. Portillo ( talk) 05:23, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
You can bet that if Moses wasn’t a religious figure he would be labelled outright as “mythical” or “legendary”, like Agamemnon, Helen of Troy, King Arthur, King Lud (supposed founder of London) and many other charming figures of fable. Campolongo ( talk) 12:18, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
Can someone put the Masoretic dates 1557-1437BC in after his name please? Just to add a bit of context. Thanks. 149.254.224.238 ( talk) 21:32, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
Can someone who knows something about it add pertinent information to the Name section regarding his Hebrew name "Avigdor"? 71.87.23.22 ( talk) 18:49, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The Red Sea is sometimes referred to as the "Sea of Reeds". Please include this on the page (where Moses led the Israelites out of Egypt and across the Red Sea)
72.225.205.143 ( talk) 22:04, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
Okay, Doug, perhaps I was a bit too bold. But the 1593 date and Insight ref should be considered even if Jerome's citation for 1592 can't be not verified; apparently both authors had similar reasons for their early date, even as Ussher. — Glenn L ( talk) 17:18, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
1 Kings 6:1 says the Exodus took place 477 years before Solomon became king. Solomon became king in approximately 971 b.C. and Exodus 7:7 says that Moses was 80 years old so another age of birth would be 1528 b.C. This would make Thutmoses III pharaoh during the Exodus (1448 b.C.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nielsdolieslager ( talk • contribs) 19:06, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
I understand that ideologies, policies and even people need critics, but I fail to see the need for such vague statements as this:
"Others, such as Hector Avalos, in "The End of Biblical Studies," states that the Exodus, as depicted in the Bible, is an idea that most biblical historians no longer support. He argues that "biblical studies as we know it must end," and writes of the "irrelevance of the Bible for modern times.""
This line is accompanied by a source, but it offers no information other than that someone named Hector thinks no one should study the bible anymore because it's irrelevant. It basically says, "The story of the exodus is fake and nobody should study the bible." It could (and should) be removed and if it was, the page would lose nothing.
Like I said, I understand the need for a criticism section, but since we all know that there are individuals and even groups that make it a point to dispute the bible, should a "disclaimer" really be added to every page about a biblical subject on wikipedia that states that there are people that think the specified subject is make-believe? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.26.85.168 ( talk) 03:30, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
I saw in the film Zeitgeist that there is an Egyptian god called Mises with a very similar history to Moses why there is no wikiarticle for Egyptian Mises and whay there is no mention of Egyptian Mises in this article?
heinh?
Humanbyrace ( talk) 20:02, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
Um... because that movie is a lunatic collection of conspiracy theories and other drivel? I'm just guessing. - Lisa ( talk - contribs) 21:22, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
82.12.255.114 (
talk)
21:49, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
A citation tn that appears to take you to a Encyclopedia Britannica source actually takes you a wikipedia page, can this be changed? Wouldn't a link to the source be more useful.
"Moses", note no. 89
No where in Islam is it claimed that Asiyah is not the daughter of Pharaoh. The article suggests something significant. Faro0485 ( talk) 09:39, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
If the Islam and Muhammad articles (prominently) state that Muhammad is the founder of Islam shouldn't the same principle (of NPOV) apply to the Judaism and Moses articles? 175.107.232.114 ( talk) 17:25, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
The Egyptian phoneme ms begins to appear in Pharaonic names at the beginning of the New Kingdom, [1] at the end of Hyksos rule, and at one of the possible times of a Biblical Exodus. The phoneme emphasized the divinity of the Pharaonic family as children of divinities: Thut-mose, child of Thoth; Ah(mun)-mose, child of Amun; Ra-mose, child of Ra. If it was taboo to speak the name of the diety YHWH at the time the Books of Moses were written down, [2] [3] a member of the Pharaonic family -- perhaps even an adopted one -- named as a child of YHWH might thus be given a zero form of the divine name: (SILENCE)-mose. Of note is the semantic overlap of the Egyptian and Hebrew etymologies: any child's birth requires that it be "drawn out of the water", that is, the amniotic fluid that bathes it in its mother's womb. Webodactyl ( talk) 01:48, 26 June 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Webodactyl ( talk • contribs) 18:55, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
I think that underneath the further information links inside the Mosaic Law section should include a link to the Halakhah page, since they are synonymous and yet are in still in separate articles. However, the article is semi-protected, so I can not edit it myself to make my proposed change. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.98.153.78 ( talk) 01:50, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
I know that's what the source -- the 1906 (a bit dated, wouldn't you say?) Jewish Encyclopedia -- says, but it's not what the biblical text (Bible or Torah) says. Exodus 2 clearly states that Moses' basket was merely placed in the reeds on the bank of the Nile and that's where Pharaoh's daughter found him. No "harrowing journey down the river" as is typically depicted in Hollywood's offerings. 67.233.242.191 ( talk) 15:08, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
The photos of Moses need to be removed because they are Biblically inaccurate. White skin was the curse God put on Moses' sister, Miriam, when she dared question Moses as a voice of God (if you will). White skin = leprosy (leprous) = a "defiling skin disease." See Numbers 12:1-10 See also Exodus 4:6 when God temporarily turned Moses' hands "leprous...like snow." These photos included in the article either need to be removed or updated; as they depict Moses "leproused" and with a defiling skin disease. The entire article lacks credibility because of this simple, yet overt and selective ignorance of the scriptures. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Operationnation ( talk • contribs) 19:50, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
You said: "The idea that white skin is a curse equivalent to leprosy would appear to be a delusion shared by no reliable sources." Are you saying God is delusional? Please refer to the cited scriptures for the reliable source. You say the photos may be inaccurate, but should remain because they "still have historiographic and traditional artistic value." This is an encyclopedia article (as you've stated as well), not an art studio. You admit the photos are inaccurate, ignore the citations, but say the photos should remain. If nobody can give a rational, reasonable reason to keep these photos, they either need to be removed or updated. "NPOV is a fundamental principle of Wikipedia and of other Wikimedia projects. This policy is nonnegotiable and all editors and articles must follow it." These photos misrepresent the facts, are categorically incorrrect, and simply display a Eurocentric idea with "historiographic and traditiona1 artistic value." Operationnation ( talk) 20:57, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
As Moses is seen as a central ancestor of the Hebrews, and his name first appears in Hebrew scriptures, it makes perfect sense giving his name in Hebrew. I don't see the need for any other language, except English, on the English Wikipedia. Versions of his name in Greek and in Arabic are currently given in the lead, and these are hardly relevant as Moses was neither Greek nor Arab. Just as I see no reason to give the English version of his name in the Greek or Arabic Wikipedia, I don't see any reason to include Moses's name in Greek or Arabic here. Jeppiz ( talk) 16:54, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
Why do you feature the Jusepe de Ribera painting, which depicts Moses with horns? This product of the Inquisiton perpetuates antisemitic myths and is offensive. Ny10128 ( talk) 00:32, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
The opening paragraph states: Moses was..., according to the Hebrew Bible and the Qur'an, a religious leader.... While this sentence may be true, it strikes me as odd to include the Qur'an here because the paragraph goes on to state that Moses "is also considered an important prophet in Christianity and Islam, as well as a number of other faiths." It seems like that statement alone is enough to demonstrate that Moses is important to religions other than Judaism. Given that the Pentateuch was written many centuries before the Qur'an, it is undoubtedly the parent text for the Islamic traditions about Moses and so it doesn't seem like including the Qur'an adds much to the article. In fact it seems odd to include the Qur'an then go on to batch the "other faiths" in the last sentence. It's sort of like saying "Jesus was, according to the New Testament and the Book of Mormon, etc...." While it's true, adding the Book of Mormon doesn't do much for the sentence since it clearly relied on the New Testament as source material. Maybe I'm being picky but it seems like it would be best to only use the "according to the Hebrew Bible (or Torah, or Pentateuch, or etc.)" in the opening sentence, keep the final sentence about Christianity, Islam and other faiths, and then discuss what the Qur'an says about Moses in the appropriate section about Moses and Islam in the body of the article. I suppose it's not a big deal and it is true as written but it strikes me as odd. Thoughts? Anyone even care at all? MorbidAnatomy ( talk) 02:53, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
As I said in my edit summary, this needs something better - I should have added a fact tag I guess, but was going to get back to it today. Now it is no less and perhaps more NPOV because it only mentions the Documentary hypothesis and oversimplifies the dates for that. Clearly it isn't just the DH that suggests a date around the middle of the first millennium BCE, and now the article suggests that it is. And can we not have insults in edit summaries please, Til, you should know better. Dougweller ( talk) 13:21, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
I find it dificult to stablish who where his wives and children. Could we work on clarification? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.22.49.133 ( talk) 04:40, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
In the section Moses#Historicity, please decapitalise "Documentary" in the first sentence. The word isn't capitalised on the actual page about the documentary hypothesis. 31.185.139.74 ( talk) 15:45, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
A principle of writing, best enunciated by Strunk (later amended by White) is called " keep it simple ( WP:KISS and Wikipedia:Keep It Simple)." This principle has been recorded in Wikipedia:Writing_better_articles#Be_concise.
A sentence read "Although considered a messenger of God, Moses had difficulties with speech, which is documented in the Torah. Because of this, Aaron (the brother of Moses) would often do the talking for him.[8]"
I changed this to read "He was considered a messenger of God. Moses had difficulties relaying these messages to the people. Because of this, his brother Aaron would often do the talking for him." While imperfect, the simplification permits further improvement.
The reverting editor has the opposite style (looking back at his edits) and changes simple statements to compound ones. This is counter-productive and makes the paragraph harder to read.
The "information" about "Torah" seems obstructive since various believers use differently named texts, and the information itself is not in question (it is cited). Throwing in "Torah" is counterproductive to sentence structure and throws the reader off the main topic which is Moses speech difficulty and how he solved it.
Editors should avoid the use of parentheses where possible. It is easily possible here. "His brother Aaron" is simpler to understand that "Aaron (the brother of Moses)." We already have the subject, Moses, in here once. We don't need it twice.
Please use the principal of KISS when constructing sentences. Please use the Elements of Style, whenever possible. Thanks. Student7 ( talk) 15:28, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
the Elohist is the theoretical source, not the Deuteronomist -- look at the documentary hypothesis article if you don't believe me
it's unbelievable that an obvious mistake like this made its way into a featured article -- undoubtedly due to an ideological desire to mislead 76.218.9.50 ( talk) 01:07, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
They were in the dessert when they received manna, not the wilderness. Check your facts please. Bamidbar(בְּמִדְבַּר) translates from Hebrew to English as "In the Dessert", whereas the a common mistranslation is "in the wilderness". AurumSpiral1235813 ( talk) 20:36, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
The Biblical Narrative section claims that Moses's mother set him adrift on the Nile and let his sister follow him to see where he would end up. Exodus, however, says that she placed him among the reeds by the bank of the river and posted Miriam nearby to see what would happen. The difference is certainly important. The mention of the fact that he was placed among the reeds suggests that his mother deliberately planted him at a spot where she expected him to be found, which sounds quite more likely than setting him adrift (and having her other child follow him who knows where). The contributor may have been influenced by the Ten Commandments or the Prince of Egypt. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.88.173.230 ( talk) 02:07, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 7 |
Strabo is identified as a Roman, but in fact he was Greek, as is correctly stated in the article about him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.73.31.50 ( talk) 18:47, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
Moses was a Black Man. Because of the Hebrews' population growth, the Egyptians decided they would impose upon them their own form of birth control. Pharaoh made a decreed that all Hebrew baby boys are killed at birth.
Exodus 1:22 And Pharaoh charged all his people, saying, Every son that is born ye shall cast into the river, and every daughter ye shall save alive This brings us directly to the story of Moses.
Moses was born a Hebrew - Israelite from the tribe of Levi (exodus 2:1-3). He spent 40 years in the house of pharaoh (Acts 7:23) and was raised as the Pharaoh's Grandson
Exodus 2: 10 And the child grew, and she brought him unto Pharaoh's daughter, and he became her son. And she called his name Moses: and she said, Because I drew him out of the water. Moses had the same physical characteristics because again, he was raised in the house of Pharaoh, as the grandson of Pharaoh, when Pharaoh ordered all Hebrew males to be killed at birth. If the Israelites were a white-skinned people, how could Moses the Hebrew survive (secretly) in the house of Pharaoh among black-skinned Egyptians for 40 years, and not be noticed.
Furthermore, after giving the decree (himself) to kill all Hebrew males, how could Pharaoh face and rule over his people, if he knowingly had one living in his house with all the rights and privileges of his own family? Moses survived 40 years in the palace of Pharaoh because he was a black man just as the Egyptians were.
This is deep, Pharaoh looked into the eyes of Moses as a baby and thought this was his own flesh and blood. He looked into the eyes of Moses as a teenager and thought this was his own flesh and blood. He looked into the eyes of Moses as a young man in his 20's and 30's and thought this was his own flesh and blood. Pharaoh saw Moses grow into a man of 40 and he thought this was his own flesh and blood grandson.
Just as Joseph's brothers couldn't tell the Hebrews from the Egyptians. Pharaoh couldn't either, or Moses would have been killed instantly.
Scripture tells us that Moses killed an Egyptian, after he saw him mistreating a Hebrew. So Moses had to flee from Egypt for his life, because Pharaoh found out and sought to kill him (Exodus 2:12-15). Pharaoh was trying to kill Moses because he found out Moses was a Hebrew and not his flesh and blood grandson.
Moses fled to the land of Midian (located in Saudi Arabia) where he helped seven daughters of the priest of Midian water their flock, after chasing away some bully shepherds. The girls went home to their father, Reuel and told him what happened. Exodus 2:16-19 16 Now the priest of Midian had seven daughters: and they came and drew water, and filled the troughs to water their father's flock.
17 And the shepherds came and drove them away: but Moses stood up and helped them, and watered their flock.
18 And when they came to Reuel their father, he said, How is it that ye are come so soon to day?
19 And they said, An Egyptian delivered us out of the hand of the shepherds, and also drew water enough for us, and watered the flock.
Notice they didn't say a Hebrew in Egyptian clothing saved us, they described Moses as a black-skinned descendant of Ham (Egyptian).
Further proof that Moses was "black" can be found in Exodus 4:6-7, In this passage,YAHAWAH, (The Creator's name in Hebrew) is showing Moses miracles so that he can prove to the children of Israel who sent him. YAHAWAH tells Moses to put his hand into his bosom, which he does. When he takes his hand out, it is LEPROUS (White) as snow.
Verse 7 says, YAHAWAH told Moses to put his hand back into his bosom, and it turned as his other flesh. Meaning that the rest of his body (skin) was other than white or the opposite of white, which is black.
YAHAWAH goes on to say in Verse 8 that if they (the Israelites) don't believe in the first sign (turning Moses rod into a serpent) then they will believe in the second sign which was changing his skin white. YAHAWAH is stating how powerful the second sign is, it will make a believer out of the stiff neck Israelites.
Exodus 4: 8 And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe thee, neither hearken to the voice of the first sign, that they will believe the voice of the latter sign. In the book of Numbers, chapter 12 verse 1, Moses' sister and brother, Miriam and Aaron spoke out against him because he married an Ethiopian woman, (not because she was black skinned, but because she was of another culture / Nation, read Acts 10:28:) their behavior angered YAHAWAH. Verse 10 says, He TURNED MIRIAM LEPROUS, WHITE AS SNOW. Once again if Miriam, who was a Hebrew, was white to begin with, what would have been the curse of turning a white skinned person white? YAHAWAH was angry with her, he showed his anger by turning her white with leprosy. If she was already white, why not turn her Jet Black?
Numbers 12:9 And the anger of YAHAWAH was kindled against them; and he departed.
10 And the cloud departed from off the tabernacle; and, behold, Miriam became leprous, white as snow: and Aaron looked upon Miriam, and, behold, she was leprous (white).
11 And Aaron said unto Moses, Alas, my Master, I beseech thee, lay not the sin upon us, wherein we have done foolishly, and wherein we have sinned.
12 Let her not be as one dead, of whom the flesh is half consumed when he cometh out of his mother's womb.-- Knighthonor ( talk) 09:26, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
WillBildUnion ( talk) 15:12, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
MOSES was born in nubian land and put in basket then the known story ...its real name in his his nubian language (MUNSA) regarding philological issues means ::forgotten::
researcher in Abrahamatic religions related to contemporary conscious —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.29.161.82 ( talk) 00:16, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
I am pretty sure Pharaoh Seti I ordered that all children should be killed (something like that).
12.34.35.152 ( talk) 15:36, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
From Moses to Mahaprabhu by Srila Saccidananda Bhaktivinode Thakura If the reader carefully considers, it will be found that the spiritual science gradually evolved from ancient times and became more simple, more clear and more condensed. The more impurities arising from time and place are removed, the more the beauties of the spiritual science brightly shine before us. This spiritual science took birth in the land of kusha grass on the banks of the Sarasvati river in Brahmavarta. As it gradually gained strength, this spiritual science spent its childhood in the abode of Badarikashram, which is covered with snow. It spent its boyhood in Naimisharanya on the banks of the Gomati river and its youth on the beautiful banks of the Kaveri river in the province of Dravida. The spiritual science ayyained maturity in Navadvip, on the banks of the Ganges, which purifies the universe.
By studying the history of the world, it is found that the spiritual science reached its peak in Navadvip. The Supreme Absolute Truth is the only object of love for the living entities. Unless one worhips Him with attachment, however, the living entity can never attain Him. Even if a person gives up all affection for this world and thinks of the Supreme Lord, He is still not easily achieved. He is controlled and attained by transcendental mellows alone. These mellows are of five types - shanta, dasya, sakya, vatsalya and madhurya.
The first mellow, shanta, is the stage in which the living entity surpasses the pains of material existence and situates himself in transcendence. In that state there is a little happiness, but no feeling of independence. At that time the relationship between the practitioner and the Lord is not yet established.
Dasya rasa is the second mellow. It contains all the ingradients of shanta rasa as well as affection. "The Lord is my master, and I am His eternal servant". This type of relationship is found in dasya rasa. No one cares much for any of the best things of this world unless they are connected with affection. Therefore dasya rasa is superior to shanta rasa in many ways.
Sakya is superior to dasya. In dasya rasa there is a thorn in the form of awe and reverence, but the main ornament in sakya rasa is the feeling of friendship in equality. Among the servants, one who is a friend is superior. There is no doubt about it. In sakya rasa all the wealth of shanta and dasya is included.
It is easy to understand that vatsalya is superior to sakya. A son gives more affection and happiness than any friend. Therefore in vatsalya rasa we find the wealth of four rasas. Although vatsalya rasa is superior to these other rasas, it appears insgnificant before madhurya rasa. There may be many secrets unknown between father and son, but this not the case between husband and wife. Therefore, if we deeply consider, it will be seen that all the above-mentioned rasas attain perfection within madhurya rasa.
If we go through the histories of these five rasas, it is clearly understood that shanta rasa was seen in the beginning days of India. When the soul was not satisfied after performing sacrifices with material ingredients, then transcendentalists like Sanaka, Sanatana, Sanat-kumara, Sananda, Narada and Lord Shiva all became detached from the material world, situated in transcendence and realized shanta rasa.
Much later, dasya rasa manifested in Hanuman, the servant of Sri Ramachandra. That same dasya rasa gradually expanded in the northwest and manifested in a great personality named Moses.
In the age of Dvapara, Uddhava and Arjuna became the qualified authorities of sakhya rasa. They preached this rasa throughout the world. Gradually tha rasa expanded up to the Arabian countries and touched the heart of Mohammed, the knower of religious principles.
Vatsalya rasa manifested throughout India in different forms at different times. Among the different forms, vatsalya mixed with opulence crossed India and appeared in a great personality named Jesus Christ, who was a preacher of Jewish religious principles.
Madhurya rasa first shone brightly in Braj. It is extremely rare for this rasa to enter the hearts of conditioned souls, because this rasa tends to remain with qualified, pure living entities. This confidential rasa was preached by Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, the moon of Navadvipa, along with His followers.
Till now, this rasa has not crossed beyond India. Recently a scholar from England named Newman realized something about this rasa and wrote a book about it. The people of Europe and America have not been satisfied with vatsalya rasa mixed with opulence as preached by Jesus Christ. I hope, by the grace of the Lord, in a very short time they will become attached to drinking the intoxicating nectar of madhurya rasa.
It has been seen tha any rasa that appears in India eventually spreads to the western countries, therefore madhurya rasa will soon be preached throughout the world. Just as the sun rises first in India and gradually spreads its lights to the West, the matchless splendor of spiritual truth appears first in India and gradually spreads to the Western countries. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.132.28.59 ( talk) 23:10, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
This section seems extra large, especially for this topic. It could be condensed, or maybe included in the article on Exodus. It also may be out of place in a Historiography section as it relates mostly to Biblical archaeology. -- Wikiwatcher1 ( talk) 18:46, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
Why has any reference to a date been removed from this article? Did Moses live in a timeless vaccuum? Does Moses have a millenium when he is alleged to have lived? Stevenmitchell ( talk) 22:30, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
This was removed today by another editor, replaced in error by Cluebot, and I removed it again for the same reason, this was an attempt to merge an article deleted at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Moses as symbol in American history, added by the same person who created the deleted article. We can't overturn the deletion process in this way. Dougweller ( talk) 12:57, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
{{ editsemiprotected}} Please have the picture of the statue of Moses be the first image. It makes sense that a picture of Moses be first rather than a picture of him as a baby with other people. 174.125.94.231 ( talk) 05:52, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
The section on Michelangelo's horned statue links to a church of St. Peter in Venice, whereas the statue is actually in the Basilica di San Pietro in Vincoli. The correct link should be this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilica_di_San_Pietro_in_Vincoli (Apologies if this is something I could have fixed myself, but the article seems to be protected, as well it probably should be, considering its subject.)) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.84.55.185 ( talk) 10:35, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
Fixed --
Wikiwatcher1 (
talk)
08:04, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
{{editsemiprotected}}
The following should be added to the Christian's View of Moses' Life:
The body of Moses shall never be found because Michael the Archangel retrieved the body of Moses immediately after Moses' death (Jude 9, NIV). In addition and even more importantly, Moses appeared in the transfiguration with the Lord Jesus Christ along with Elijah (Math 17:2, Mark 9:2, NIV). The transfiguration is a foreshadowing of the resurection of those who are in Christ and therefore, eternal life. Elijah did not see death but was translated into the presence of God (IIKings 2:11-12, NIV). Therefore, Elijah, already in the presence of God, together with Moses, whose body was recovered by Michael the Archangel and was then also in the presence of God, is transfigured along with the Lord Jesus Christ, who came from the presence of God and will be raised unto eternal life after his death on the cross. The transfiguration that included Moses, with our Lord Jesus Christ, and Elijah, is therefore a promise that, our mistakes aside, God will honor our faith in Him and bring us into His Presence, and therefore, eternal life. This is the promise for all believers in our Lord and Savior Jesus the Christ.
Mrmusumeci (
talk)
14:56, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
Not done: Welcome. Please read the current section for an example of a neutral, encyclopedic tone. If you want to add to the section, please detail what you would like to add in a 'please change X to Y' degree of detail and use a neutral tone. Thanks,
Celestra (
talk)
16:30, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
{{editsemiprotected}}
The following should be added to the Christian's View of Moses' Life: The body of Moses was taken by Michael the Archangel who retrieved the body of Moses immediately after Moses' death (Jude 9, NIV). In addition and even more importantly, Moses appeared in the transfiguration with Jesus Christ along with the prophet Elijah (Math 17:2, Mark 9:2, NIV). The transfiguration is a foreshadowing of the resurrection of those who are in Christ, and therefore, will experience eternal life (John 11:25). Elijah did not see death but was translated into the presence of God (II Kings 2:11-12, NIV). Therefore, Elijah, already in the presence of God, together with Moses, whose body was recovered by Michael the Archangel and was also in the presence of God, is transfigured along with Jesus Christ, who came from the presence of God and was raised unto eternal life after his death on the cross (John 20:17). The transfiguration that included Moses, Jesus Christ, and Elijah, is therefore a promise that, mistakes aside, God will honor those who place their faith in Him and bring them into His Presence, and therefore, eternal life (reference the thief on the cross, Luke 23:43).
Mrmusumeci (
talk)
22:41, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
Not done: I don't see how this is fundamentally (no pun intended) different than the previous request. This is not the place for a religious tract; this section describes how Christianity in general views Moses. Please read it. If you have anything to add in an equally neutral and encyclopedic tone, please make another request. Thanks,
Celestra (
talk)
23:17, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
Why are there no historical dates in the article for Moses existence? Certainly academic scholarship has been able to approximate dates for certain events in his life. However, this article appears to have no reference to any dating whatsoever... That leaves it as a very unencyclopaedic article. Stevenmitchell ( talk) 22:35, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
You want to read Moses#Historicity, which does have "historical dates", such as the quoted "possibility of a Moses-like figure in Transjordan ca 1250-1200 [BC]". Please read the entire article before complaining about what is or is not in it. -- dab (𒁳) 09:40, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
Could you please add a translation of the inscription of the Russian icon, for those of us who don't know Slavonic? Thanks! -- 77.7.155.77 ( talk) 12:11, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
This page is locked to prevent modification of the biography of a living person?
Really?
I'm pretty sure none of the Abrahamic faiths regard Moses as still living. So - is this a Scientology thing? Dumb. Dumb. Dumb. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.8.5.105 ( talk) 18:55, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
This page is semi-protected because of vandalism.
It is NOT "locked to prevent modification of the biography of a living person". 71.109.146.207 ( talk) 16:36, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
This template ought to be deleted outright. It is not of encyclopedic value and is pure trivia. Why is it featured so prominently here? Why is it here at all? Why not a template listing Biblical figures by the number of times they are mentioned in the Bible, the number of spouses or children they had, or simply by alphabetical order? The template is WP:UNDUE. Please remove it. Griswaldo ( talk) 04:26, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
I note that no editors are talking about applicability to Moses, but only to general applicability as if this is already a WP:TFD and as if WP:NOTVOTE doesn't apply. The question is whether comparison of Moses' age to other Biblical figures is appropriate. Well, sure enough, this article quotes Easton's Dictionary on that very point. I've also seen it argued that the 3-year gap with Aaron assigns Aaron a "fourth clan" among the traditional three Levitical clans. Comparison with Joshua (110) is also prevalent, and the Talmud has exceeding detail on age comparisons and significances. Even the primary text, such as in Moses' personal genealogy in Ex. 6, makes clear that age comparison is significant by listing ages only for Levi, Kohath, and Amram, rather than anyone else who is not a direct forebear of Moses. I'm not bothering to search sources right now because they are so widespread it takes awhile to find the most reliable. Now you could make a different case, as G hints, and say that the template was misplaced or should be on hide status, which might have standing in undue-weight and are fine solutions, as no undue weighting was intended, only graphic/text flow. In short, ample sources indicate such a comparison is encyclopedic, and this template has amicably and stably served that function since its inception. JJB 15:09, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
Doug, it is correct, please read the first link I posted, where your continuation of this topic should continue per WP:MULTI, unless you have something to say about Moses. JJB 16:02, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
G, per WP:TALK, "Stay on topic: Talk pages are for discussing the article, not for general conversation about (other subjects). Keep discussions focused on how to improve the article. Irrelevant discussions are subject to removal." I am the only one talking about Moses, you are cutting-and-pasting arguments. We have followed each other well so far in this discussion on trimming longevity articles, but now you are pointedly breaking basic talk rules and not sticking to the subject. The fact is that "Aaron 123 Moses 120" and the like are very well-sourced subtopics for this article. There is in fact no consensus to delete from this article, only to do something that should be discussed by a wider group, as I first said. You are also not interacting with my compromises to demote or hide the template. JJB 17:58, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
What significance does a Biblical template of longevity have? First off, it provides a useful example of the beliefs of a major culture...the Judeo-Christian culture...regarding longevity. Note that in Islam, we also have longevity: Jesus died at age "120" in the Koran, although the Christian Jesus died at 33 1/2 years. Why the discrepancy? A lot of this has to do with the fact that extreme age is seen as honorific and age "120" is the age that the Biblical Moses lived to. Islam denies the resurrection and crucifixion, so age 33 is out. But Islam still reveres the words of Jesus as a prophet, so a semi-mythical age association of "120" is made.
It's a shame that people like you can't tell the difference between a video game and encyclopedic material. Many, many Christian scholars have analyzed Biblical ages, pointing out that various ages are associated with sin and punishment or blessing and life fulfillment. Whether the template needs cleanup is irrelevant. That people like you deny its importance without even giving it a thought, shows that too often, arguments on Wikipedia have devolved into blogger-style disputes, rather than an honest discussion of content. Ryoung122 18:55, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
It is strongly recommended that those who can actually edit this article, change the references "Red Sea" to "Sea of Reeds" or incorporate the "Sea of Reeds" in the text when ever "Red Sea" is mentioned. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.80.152.175 ( talk) 11:58, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
I agree. Also there are references which suggest that Moses was able to predict solar eclipses. That is how his staff turned into the largest snake that ate all the others. The snake was the "length of the cast shadow". Egyptians used analemmas to time their agricultural processes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.163.128.42 ( talk) 13:53, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
Lisa, since this is the first removal of material on this page, i shall make additional review of the sources. However, you must note that [WP:RS] is not equal to [WP:NOR], so the provided reason for removing my edit is not entirely solid by mentioning them both. Never the less, i shall ignore your mistake, since [WP:RS] is legitimate claim in this case until the sources are reviewed. In addition, you are advised not to rely on such statements as as we have seen before, since you do not represent any judging body or wikipedian authority (refer to yourself as singular). Finally, i would like to remind you that [WP:5P] clearly says you do not own the article and must avoid of personal attacks (Wikipedia is free content - no editor owns any article; Wikipeadians should interact in a respectful and civil manner - "...avoid of personal attacks"). I hope you understand. Greyshark09 ( talk) 21:28, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
How about disentangling the Exodus story from the later legends and putting them in two separate sections? PiCo ( talk) 04:48, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
makes sense, also The Exodus has its own article, and we do not need more than a brief summary of that for the purposes of this article. -- dab (𒁳) 14:23, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
The section contains this sentence: "According to Genesis 46:11, Amram's father Kehath immigrated to Egypt with 70 of Jacob's household, making Moses part of the second generation of Israelites born during their time in Egypt." This seems like OR to me. After all, between Jacob coming to Egypt and Moses leading the Exodus are (according to Exodus 12:40) 200 to 400 years. ≡ CUSH ≡ 09:20, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
Yes. Also, the narrative section is far too long and needs to be shortened to about half its present length. It isn't the point of this article to retell the biblical narrative in every detail. There are enough online bibles, and people can simply go and read the Book of Exodus if they are interested in the narrative. -- dab (𒁳) 16:07, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
In my view name Mosheh is clearly an epithet of a "deliverer", which makes perfect sense in view of the Exodus tradition. Nevertheless, the Hebrew text itself gives an aitiological myth for the name, deriving it from the scene where the baby is drawn out of the river.
We should also keep in mind that the name Mošeh is only recorded in the Masoretic text. Strictly speaking, the Hebrew text of antiquity just records mšh, and you can't analyze that for grammatical form. But I don't think there is any doubt that the name was Mošeh from at least 300 BC, and probably also in 500 BC when the text was redacted, because the LXX rendition is Mωϋσῆς.
Following Gesenius, the article is simply saying that the traditional explanation, verifiably dating to antiquity, is "the one who was drawn out", while modern etymologies may prefer "the one who draws out", i.e. "Saviour", but then there are also other modern etymologies which follow Josephus in comparing Coptic (Egyptian). -- dab (𒁳) 12:54, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
I like all this, but I read that Mose was a common name in Egypt... Isn't that an epithet?
Yes, as far as I know Mose is only recorded in Masoretic maybe someone smart could compare the dates for when cartouches were used to see if the dates match. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.49.136.5 ( talk) 18:18, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
The problem is that Moses isn't a historical character. If you find a cartouche sensationally mentioning Moses, you should announce the discovery in scholarly literature, not on Wikipedia. Egyptian ms is an element in names such as Tuthmose, Ahmose etc. The "mose" spelling is just the conventional Egyptological pronunciation. There is no reason to assume that it has anything to do with Hebrew Mosheh. -- dab (𒁳) 18:35, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
{{edit semi-protected}}
From the article on Moses - According to the
Book of Exodus, Moses was born in a time when his people, the
Children of Israel, were increasing in number and the Egyptian
Pharaoh was worried that they might help Egypt's enemies. Moses' Hebrew mother,
Jochebed, hide him when the Pharaoh ordered all newborn Hebrew boys to be killed.
The above passage should be amended to read "hid him" not "hide him" Paul222148 ( talk) 14:04, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
My understanding is that there's some debate as to whether Moses had one, two, or three wives. Is this in fact the case? If so, it seems as though it bears mentioning in the article. I'm no expert in this field, and would be interested to hear someone with more authority weigh in. Mattymatt ( talk) 01:38, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
I'm surprised this page doesn't once list the alleged date, circa 1400 BCE, of Moses' life (Ex. 6:16-20). That's one of the most basic and important starting points of any biography. Here's a ref link for it. http://www.jewfaq.org/moshe.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jadon ( talk • contribs) 18:13, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
To be fair, the "In Judaism" parts of this article need improvement. The Moses in Rabbinic Literature article is a joke. Also, dates for Moses in Early Christian tradition would be of interest. Jerome apparently places the birth of Moses at 1592 BC. Needless to say, these sources also have the birth year of Abraham, Noah and Adam. They are interesting in their own right, but they have nothing to do with historicity. -- dab (𒁳) 13:03, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
Can you give a reference for your claim that in Biblical chronology Moses was born in AM 2146 (2226-80)? I mean, I have just given the Seder Olam claim the benefit of doubt, but it's not like it's actually referenced. Ussher (1658) says AM 2385. Seder Olam Rabbah allegedly says 2368. Our Biblical chronology article says 2367 (also no reference). Now you insist on an "unambiguous" AM 2146? I have tried to accommodate these dates in a brief summary in the lead, but can you please bother to provide references (better than jewfaq.org) before calling for the inclusion of such stuff? -- dab (𒁳) 13:26, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
Currently, it is both 2011 CE and 5771 AM (in the Rabbininc Jewish tradition; assumed stated from now on). This means that 3761 AM was 1 CE. However, if I recall correctly, there was no 0 CE, and year 3760 AM corresponds to 1 BCE. As such, that would require subtracting 3761 from dates prior to 3760 AM to get the BCE analogue. This would make Moses's life from 1393 BCE until 1273 BCE. Am I mistaken? -- Avi ( talk) 22:24, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
There is also the problem of Gregorian vs. Julian years. This makes for a difference of two years over this period. Then there is the Missing years problem, which basically says that the modern Jewish calendar is off 165 (or 163? Julian? Gregorian?) years relative to the ancient Jewish calendar. It's complicated, which (as PiCo says) is why we should base it on literature instead of figuring it out ourselves. -- dab (𒁳) 10:32, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
Shouldn't more of the Moses#Moses in Hellenistic literature be moved to its "main" page? The section is as big as Moses in Hellenistic literature. There should just be a summary in the section.-- Zakteh2 ( talk) 16:37, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
Having studied the story of Mose's, as well as Hieroglyphics, I believe I can make some coherent comments. Pharoh's daughter first identified the baby by hearing it -mesu / -mose. Next she tried to see where he was: m' ssa (in the shallow water?), and m' sha (in the reeds?). This created several different spellings in Egyptian; not to mention further translations. Later, when he was written as a cartouche, he was referred to as the baby drawn out (of the marsh), because the Faroh's daughter's arm was added (perhaps this was the first formal reference).
reference: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=507558852701584314#
Why are people so myopic and try to prove what's in the Bible by quoting the Bible? Chinese have a saying, "You can't see the mountain when you are in the mountain." To see the big picture, you have to step away. The bigger the mountain, the further away you have to step. The Jews wrote the Old Testement during their Babylonian Captivity in the 6th century B.C. They learned of the well-known old story of the Akkadian, Sagon the Great who, as a baby, was pulled from the river in a reed basket by a gardener. They took the story and made it their own and gave it to their "savior". Moses is not a "name", it's a title. Many Egyptian pharoahs had that title, i.e. Ramoses, Ahmoses, Tutmoses, etc., all well before the Jews wrote their books. If the leader of the Exodus is a "prince of Egypt", he was probably a well educated man and should be well versed in Akhanaton's monotheism claims. As he needed unquestioned obedience when he failed to bring his people to the promised land but got them lost in the desert, he proclaimed Yehweh, the old Israelite God of Host worshiped by Abraham, their one and only god for the band of wanderers. He never claimed Yehweh was the one and only "God" for all people. If you ever read the Bible, you will know that Yahweh is an extremely racist vicious bigot. He was not even able to keep the few tribes of Jews in line. The kingdoms the Jews created were very small and did not last very long. So much for this all mighty Yahweh. When he failed to protect his "chosen people", he blamed the Jews. Christianity and Islam gained supremacy by violence and massacre, the more pagants you slaughter, the greater your sainthood. Have you noticed that only little children sees the world in black and white and their parents are all powerful? That's the simple religion of this simple people to reflect their unsophisticated society. Grown-ups know better. That's why all civilized societies had polytheism where gods were many and complex to reflect their multifaceted cultures. -- VimalaNowlis ( talk) 19:59, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
im of the cohen/levite tribe and i found that when describeing the levite preists in this section would be more informative by the real name given to them they were cohen preists not levite's there is a blood difrence in levites and cohen tho they derive from the same tribe . the levites are the protectors of the cohen hipreist. if some one could change that that would be great i find it dishonest. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.234.196.204 ( talk) 21:45, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
the herbrew word for authanticty is Kohanim —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.234.196.204 ( talk) 21:52, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
{{edit semi-protected}}
<The "law of Moses" was discovered in the Temple during the reign of king Josiah (r. 641–609 BCE) probably corresponds...>
likely meant to have relative pronoun before word <was> (eg <which was discovered>) Nickholbrook ( talk) 20:25, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
The name of Merneptah appears in the middle of this article with no explanation - at the very least it neds wikilinking, and mentioning as the "Pharaoh of the Exodus", if that is what is intended. 109.154.68.162 ( talk) 20:37, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
The article says that his father-in-law's name is Hobab (The Shepherdess's Father) , that was the name of his brother-in-law. His father's name as is well known was Jethro. Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jethro_(Bible) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.134.45.100 ( talk) 12:58, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
In Rabbinical tradition Jethro is attributed to have 7 different names (appearing in different places in the bible): http://www.oztorah.com/2009/02/yitros-7-names-yitro/ Yitro's 7 names – Yitro. People’s names in the Bible all have a special meaning. In the case of Jethro – in Hebrew Yitro – there are seven names and seven meanings, according to rabbinic midrash. His two main names are connected with a root that means “additional” – he was “Yitro” because he performed extra good deeds and “Yeter” because he caused extra texts to enter the Torah. He was “Chovav” because he was beloved of God, “Re’u'el” because he was God’s friend, “Chever” because he was a close associate of the Almighty, “Puti’el” because he abandoned idolatry, and “Keni” because he was zealous for God. YSchary ( talk) 09:39, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
To promote an NPOV, then it's reasonable to paraphrase a narrative. So just because the article says that the burning bush was not consumed, that doesn't mean it wasn't consumed - it means the Bible says it wasn't consumed. You can't get more neutral than that.
In contrast, the word 'claims' is a loaded term, since it carries an implication that what is being claimed is not true. Therefore the phrase 'scripture claims' is further away from the NPOV that Wikipedia is trying to promote. I hope you see I'm not saying anything about whether the bush was consumed or not, just trying to promote an academic neutrality. Asnac ( talk) 17:55, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
This line reflects bias: "Historically, the Exodus narrative can be traced to the 7th century BCE kingdom of Judah, where it acts as a founding myth presented by the Yahwist faction."
That is some scholar's interpretation, and should be listed as such. Articles have to be closely monitored to not reflect bias. Thus, there in contentious matters, statements should be predicated by "According to some scholars," etc. Wikipedia is not a forum for choosing sides or favored positions, but for presenting encyclopedic matter that is wholly without bias. Religious viewpoints should be presented alongside the various different (and oftentimes contradictory) scholarly ones, with each cited by the proponent of the theory. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.191.75.249 ( talk) 23:27, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
At the moment this section - essentially a summary of the stories in Exodus-Numbers - is organised according to headers that have no relationship to the various books. Wouldn't it be better to organise the events according to the books they're found in - Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers? PiCo ( talk) 07:47, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
The recent revision entered the following text: "Prominent archaeologists and Egyptologists dispute the existence of Moses as well as the veracity of the Exodus story, citing logical inconsistencies, new archaeological evidence, historical evidence, and related origin myths in Canaanite culture.[3][4][5]"
While all entries of Biblical stories and characters may be subject to biblical criticism and archeological dogma (if I can't find it, it didn't exist), I question the appropriateness of placing this in the first paragraph.
All historical figures (e.g., entries in Wikipedia) can be called into question - yet I do not see these promeniently displayed in other entries: e.g., for example, the actual source material on Alexander the Great is not first hand, yet few doubt his existence, based on human history and achievements.
The fact that an entire people witnessed Moses and his life, which were recorded in a book that has some 6 billion copies printed (and read?) in some 2000 languages - the Bible ( http://www.ipl.org/div/farq/bestsellerFARQ.html)- seems to be reference enough, even if the authorship that book is debatable (heaven or earth).
Needless to say, while faith and historical records are not always aligned nor reconcilable,in an entry about a faith-based figure, it would seem more reasonable from an editing point of view as well as a neutral point of view, to locate a minority opinion that questions the very existence (validity?) of an entry under a separate cateogry at the end.
My proposal is to relocate this debatable sentence mentioned above under a new subsection of the Modern reception section labaled Biblical / Archeological Criticism YSchary ( talk) 08:19, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
If Moses was not a biblical character, you can bet that there would be no dispute of his existence. Portillo ( talk) 05:23, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
You can bet that if Moses wasn’t a religious figure he would be labelled outright as “mythical” or “legendary”, like Agamemnon, Helen of Troy, King Arthur, King Lud (supposed founder of London) and many other charming figures of fable. Campolongo ( talk) 12:18, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
Can someone put the Masoretic dates 1557-1437BC in after his name please? Just to add a bit of context. Thanks. 149.254.224.238 ( talk) 21:32, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
Can someone who knows something about it add pertinent information to the Name section regarding his Hebrew name "Avigdor"? 71.87.23.22 ( talk) 18:49, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The Red Sea is sometimes referred to as the "Sea of Reeds". Please include this on the page (where Moses led the Israelites out of Egypt and across the Red Sea)
72.225.205.143 ( talk) 22:04, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
Okay, Doug, perhaps I was a bit too bold. But the 1593 date and Insight ref should be considered even if Jerome's citation for 1592 can't be not verified; apparently both authors had similar reasons for their early date, even as Ussher. — Glenn L ( talk) 17:18, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
1 Kings 6:1 says the Exodus took place 477 years before Solomon became king. Solomon became king in approximately 971 b.C. and Exodus 7:7 says that Moses was 80 years old so another age of birth would be 1528 b.C. This would make Thutmoses III pharaoh during the Exodus (1448 b.C.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nielsdolieslager ( talk • contribs) 19:06, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
I understand that ideologies, policies and even people need critics, but I fail to see the need for such vague statements as this:
"Others, such as Hector Avalos, in "The End of Biblical Studies," states that the Exodus, as depicted in the Bible, is an idea that most biblical historians no longer support. He argues that "biblical studies as we know it must end," and writes of the "irrelevance of the Bible for modern times.""
This line is accompanied by a source, but it offers no information other than that someone named Hector thinks no one should study the bible anymore because it's irrelevant. It basically says, "The story of the exodus is fake and nobody should study the bible." It could (and should) be removed and if it was, the page would lose nothing.
Like I said, I understand the need for a criticism section, but since we all know that there are individuals and even groups that make it a point to dispute the bible, should a "disclaimer" really be added to every page about a biblical subject on wikipedia that states that there are people that think the specified subject is make-believe? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.26.85.168 ( talk) 03:30, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
I saw in the film Zeitgeist that there is an Egyptian god called Mises with a very similar history to Moses why there is no wikiarticle for Egyptian Mises and whay there is no mention of Egyptian Mises in this article?
heinh?
Humanbyrace ( talk) 20:02, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
Um... because that movie is a lunatic collection of conspiracy theories and other drivel? I'm just guessing. - Lisa ( talk - contribs) 21:22, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
82.12.255.114 (
talk)
21:49, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
A citation tn that appears to take you to a Encyclopedia Britannica source actually takes you a wikipedia page, can this be changed? Wouldn't a link to the source be more useful.
"Moses", note no. 89
No where in Islam is it claimed that Asiyah is not the daughter of Pharaoh. The article suggests something significant. Faro0485 ( talk) 09:39, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
If the Islam and Muhammad articles (prominently) state that Muhammad is the founder of Islam shouldn't the same principle (of NPOV) apply to the Judaism and Moses articles? 175.107.232.114 ( talk) 17:25, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
The Egyptian phoneme ms begins to appear in Pharaonic names at the beginning of the New Kingdom, [1] at the end of Hyksos rule, and at one of the possible times of a Biblical Exodus. The phoneme emphasized the divinity of the Pharaonic family as children of divinities: Thut-mose, child of Thoth; Ah(mun)-mose, child of Amun; Ra-mose, child of Ra. If it was taboo to speak the name of the diety YHWH at the time the Books of Moses were written down, [2] [3] a member of the Pharaonic family -- perhaps even an adopted one -- named as a child of YHWH might thus be given a zero form of the divine name: (SILENCE)-mose. Of note is the semantic overlap of the Egyptian and Hebrew etymologies: any child's birth requires that it be "drawn out of the water", that is, the amniotic fluid that bathes it in its mother's womb. Webodactyl ( talk) 01:48, 26 June 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Webodactyl ( talk • contribs) 18:55, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
I think that underneath the further information links inside the Mosaic Law section should include a link to the Halakhah page, since they are synonymous and yet are in still in separate articles. However, the article is semi-protected, so I can not edit it myself to make my proposed change. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.98.153.78 ( talk) 01:50, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
I know that's what the source -- the 1906 (a bit dated, wouldn't you say?) Jewish Encyclopedia -- says, but it's not what the biblical text (Bible or Torah) says. Exodus 2 clearly states that Moses' basket was merely placed in the reeds on the bank of the Nile and that's where Pharaoh's daughter found him. No "harrowing journey down the river" as is typically depicted in Hollywood's offerings. 67.233.242.191 ( talk) 15:08, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
The photos of Moses need to be removed because they are Biblically inaccurate. White skin was the curse God put on Moses' sister, Miriam, when she dared question Moses as a voice of God (if you will). White skin = leprosy (leprous) = a "defiling skin disease." See Numbers 12:1-10 See also Exodus 4:6 when God temporarily turned Moses' hands "leprous...like snow." These photos included in the article either need to be removed or updated; as they depict Moses "leproused" and with a defiling skin disease. The entire article lacks credibility because of this simple, yet overt and selective ignorance of the scriptures. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Operationnation ( talk • contribs) 19:50, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
You said: "The idea that white skin is a curse equivalent to leprosy would appear to be a delusion shared by no reliable sources." Are you saying God is delusional? Please refer to the cited scriptures for the reliable source. You say the photos may be inaccurate, but should remain because they "still have historiographic and traditional artistic value." This is an encyclopedia article (as you've stated as well), not an art studio. You admit the photos are inaccurate, ignore the citations, but say the photos should remain. If nobody can give a rational, reasonable reason to keep these photos, they either need to be removed or updated. "NPOV is a fundamental principle of Wikipedia and of other Wikimedia projects. This policy is nonnegotiable and all editors and articles must follow it." These photos misrepresent the facts, are categorically incorrrect, and simply display a Eurocentric idea with "historiographic and traditiona1 artistic value." Operationnation ( talk) 20:57, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
As Moses is seen as a central ancestor of the Hebrews, and his name first appears in Hebrew scriptures, it makes perfect sense giving his name in Hebrew. I don't see the need for any other language, except English, on the English Wikipedia. Versions of his name in Greek and in Arabic are currently given in the lead, and these are hardly relevant as Moses was neither Greek nor Arab. Just as I see no reason to give the English version of his name in the Greek or Arabic Wikipedia, I don't see any reason to include Moses's name in Greek or Arabic here. Jeppiz ( talk) 16:54, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
Why do you feature the Jusepe de Ribera painting, which depicts Moses with horns? This product of the Inquisiton perpetuates antisemitic myths and is offensive. Ny10128 ( talk) 00:32, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
The opening paragraph states: Moses was..., according to the Hebrew Bible and the Qur'an, a religious leader.... While this sentence may be true, it strikes me as odd to include the Qur'an here because the paragraph goes on to state that Moses "is also considered an important prophet in Christianity and Islam, as well as a number of other faiths." It seems like that statement alone is enough to demonstrate that Moses is important to religions other than Judaism. Given that the Pentateuch was written many centuries before the Qur'an, it is undoubtedly the parent text for the Islamic traditions about Moses and so it doesn't seem like including the Qur'an adds much to the article. In fact it seems odd to include the Qur'an then go on to batch the "other faiths" in the last sentence. It's sort of like saying "Jesus was, according to the New Testament and the Book of Mormon, etc...." While it's true, adding the Book of Mormon doesn't do much for the sentence since it clearly relied on the New Testament as source material. Maybe I'm being picky but it seems like it would be best to only use the "according to the Hebrew Bible (or Torah, or Pentateuch, or etc.)" in the opening sentence, keep the final sentence about Christianity, Islam and other faiths, and then discuss what the Qur'an says about Moses in the appropriate section about Moses and Islam in the body of the article. I suppose it's not a big deal and it is true as written but it strikes me as odd. Thoughts? Anyone even care at all? MorbidAnatomy ( talk) 02:53, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
As I said in my edit summary, this needs something better - I should have added a fact tag I guess, but was going to get back to it today. Now it is no less and perhaps more NPOV because it only mentions the Documentary hypothesis and oversimplifies the dates for that. Clearly it isn't just the DH that suggests a date around the middle of the first millennium BCE, and now the article suggests that it is. And can we not have insults in edit summaries please, Til, you should know better. Dougweller ( talk) 13:21, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
I find it dificult to stablish who where his wives and children. Could we work on clarification? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.22.49.133 ( talk) 04:40, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
In the section Moses#Historicity, please decapitalise "Documentary" in the first sentence. The word isn't capitalised on the actual page about the documentary hypothesis. 31.185.139.74 ( talk) 15:45, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
A principle of writing, best enunciated by Strunk (later amended by White) is called " keep it simple ( WP:KISS and Wikipedia:Keep It Simple)." This principle has been recorded in Wikipedia:Writing_better_articles#Be_concise.
A sentence read "Although considered a messenger of God, Moses had difficulties with speech, which is documented in the Torah. Because of this, Aaron (the brother of Moses) would often do the talking for him.[8]"
I changed this to read "He was considered a messenger of God. Moses had difficulties relaying these messages to the people. Because of this, his brother Aaron would often do the talking for him." While imperfect, the simplification permits further improvement.
The reverting editor has the opposite style (looking back at his edits) and changes simple statements to compound ones. This is counter-productive and makes the paragraph harder to read.
The "information" about "Torah" seems obstructive since various believers use differently named texts, and the information itself is not in question (it is cited). Throwing in "Torah" is counterproductive to sentence structure and throws the reader off the main topic which is Moses speech difficulty and how he solved it.
Editors should avoid the use of parentheses where possible. It is easily possible here. "His brother Aaron" is simpler to understand that "Aaron (the brother of Moses)." We already have the subject, Moses, in here once. We don't need it twice.
Please use the principal of KISS when constructing sentences. Please use the Elements of Style, whenever possible. Thanks. Student7 ( talk) 15:28, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
the Elohist is the theoretical source, not the Deuteronomist -- look at the documentary hypothesis article if you don't believe me
it's unbelievable that an obvious mistake like this made its way into a featured article -- undoubtedly due to an ideological desire to mislead 76.218.9.50 ( talk) 01:07, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
They were in the dessert when they received manna, not the wilderness. Check your facts please. Bamidbar(בְּמִדְבַּר) translates from Hebrew to English as "In the Dessert", whereas the a common mistranslation is "in the wilderness". AurumSpiral1235813 ( talk) 20:36, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
The Biblical Narrative section claims that Moses's mother set him adrift on the Nile and let his sister follow him to see where he would end up. Exodus, however, says that she placed him among the reeds by the bank of the river and posted Miriam nearby to see what would happen. The difference is certainly important. The mention of the fact that he was placed among the reeds suggests that his mother deliberately planted him at a spot where she expected him to be found, which sounds quite more likely than setting him adrift (and having her other child follow him who knows where). The contributor may have been influenced by the Ten Commandments or the Prince of Egypt. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.88.173.230 ( talk) 02:07, 12 January 2014 (UTC)