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Macrakis, do you have any source on Albanians in Voskopoja? From the sources I read, back then there was no significant Albanian population in the city. bogdan 19:11, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
See page 9 of [1]:
The multilingual glossaries published there (Kavaliotis, Daniil) also indicate that Albanian was one of the local languages. I'd be happy to see more sources. -- Macrakis 20:59, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
I don't dispute the fact that there were Albanians or Greeks in Voskopoja. All Balkan commercial towns had lots of ethnicities at the time, it's just that most sources say Voskopoja was overwhelmingly Aromanian.
Johann Thunmann (1746-1778) who actually visited the town said that "everyone" in the city spoke Aromanian and many also spoke Greek.
Maria N. Todorova wrote in "Balkan Identities: Nation and Memory" (2004):
bogdan 21:26, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
What current Aromanian informants say isn't very helpful for the 18th century -- and we have to be careful of ethnic boosterism, as Peyfuss points out:
(from cited Elsie review) I have no axe to grind here. It is clear that Moschopolis was destroyed by Muslim Albanians; the role of Christian Albanians seems less clear, and I'd be happy to see more evidence one way or the other. (see also http://www.farsarotul.org/nl17_1.htm -- nothing decisive, but interesting) -- Macrakis 21:32, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Both the Swedish & Deutch Wiki use the Albanian name Voskopoja for the article, and not the Greek one. The Albanian name Voskopoja also have more google hits than the Greek name Moscopole! Plus the city is situated in Albania not Greece!
-- Albanau 12:32, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Albanau this article refers mainly to the 18th century commercial center not to the poor little village it is nowadays. It's name back then was Moscopole, i think we have all agreed on that. Also... uhmmm Greece? this city was MAINLY part of Aromanian history not Greek or Albanian and Moscopolea is how they call it. 86.104.216.79 13:08, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Voskopoja also is a Greek-origin name Voskos shepherd and poli city poja(slavicized or aromanized maybe)
What is current ethno-linguistical of today's Voskopoja? Luka Jačov ( talk) 17:40, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
Dear Alexikoua, let me remind you what you said earlier at User talk:Aqwis' talk page:
Now, the lead page has it: Moscopole [...] is a small village in southeastern Albania. I’m perplexed, Moscopole is
Voskopoja was an Albanian Christian city ,here a vigorous Albanian movement developed , it involved comparison of various alphabet used to express the Albanian language ..The academy of Voskopoja proved very influential in Albanian literary and of national Albanian consciousnesses …Theodor Kavalioti of Voskopoja 1718-1797 director of New Academy published a scholarly study of Albanian of 1200 Albanian words.Kavalioti wanted to setup a press in Elbasan too, he want in person to escort the heavy boxes …..Another four language vocabulary by Dhanil Mihal Adam Haxhi in 1794 included 235 sentences in Albanian regarding daily life The Albanians: an ethnic history from prehistoric times to the present By Edwin E. Jacques http://books.google.com/books?id=IJ2s9sQ9bGkC&pg=PA281&dq=voskopoja+albanian+culture#v=onepage&q=voskopoja%20albanian%20culture&f=false —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.60.29.118 ( talk) 09:56, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
This book [ [2]] says also that Albanians trace their roots to Achilles and other heroes of the siege of Troy... How could it be historical? Alexikoua ( talk) 10:48, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
The specific book is fiction. That's easy to understand if we take a paragraph at random. Alexikoua ( talk) 19:40, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
I think there should be a section on the origin of the name, which means "city of the sheppherds", voskos, moschos, in both its forms. Guildenrich 18:38, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
Moscopole → Moschopolis — - [All the sources linked in the article, use the name "Moschopolis" and not "Moscopole".] -- Guildenrich ( talk) 03:46, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
I love this quantitative logic! With this logic in Russia all occupied "Republics" were Russian, because you certainly would find the most hits to their names in Russian, in recent literature. Did anybody hear what was said above: this is about a major and extinct metropole of the South Balcans, which was a commercial one, with Aromanian majority, but cosmopolitan as a commercial city is. The fact can be followed also in the families of merchants that emigrated, mostly to Vienna and Budapest after the city was distroyed. Peyfuss writes about this, he himself is descendant of such a family. 79.241.128.81 ( talk) 19:36, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
Guildenrich (
talk) 17:14, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
Apart from the google hits argument, which doesn't sound enough, the move is a bit unclear. The city was an Arumanian metropolis, which played a major role in Greek Enlightenment. Since the diferrence is minimal Moscopole-Moschopolis, sounds quite the same, in contrast with the Thebes,_Egypt name case, I suggest to keep the Arumanian name. The city was inhabited by Arumanians, so this name form should preferred. Alexikoua ( talk) 14:37, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
- No established usage
- It can happen that an otherwise notable topic has not yet received much attention in the English-speaking world, so that there are too few English sources to constitute an established usage. Very low google counts can but need not be indicative of this. If this happens, follow the conventions of the language in which the entity is most often talked about (German for German politicians, Turkish for Turkish rivers, Portuguese for Brazilian towns etc.).
- If, as will happen, there are several competing foreign terms, a neutral one is often best. For example see the suggestions in the sections " multiple local names" and " use modern names" in WP:NC (geographic names) for ideas on how to deal with this problem.
Google Scholar: Moschopolis 129 hits. [8] vs. Moscopole 50 hits [9]. Guildenrich ( talk) 21:06, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
There is also Moskopole 9, Moskopolje 6, Moskopol 6, Moschopol 2, Moschopoli 5. It seems the name exists in various similar forms. Alexikoua ( talk) 15:05, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
I see that travelguides adopt the Voskopoja/e form, on the other hand most academic/encyclopedic researches prefer the m-. Alexikoua ( talk) 18:08, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
Guild. has become very disruptive in his edits, seems his first block had the opposite results. The move to 'Voschopolis' is imposible. Alexikoua ( talk) 17:09, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
Guildenrich ( talk) 15:07, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
What does that mean? Can someone please translate as Guildenrich has been banned? sulmues ( talk)--Sulmues 15:35, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
It refers to the village as Voskopolis in Greek as opposed to Moschopolis. I think there's no doubt though that the most common name for the village in Greek is Moschopolis.-- Ptolion ( talk) 15:54, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
It seems that a number of sources say that it was a Metropolis: [ [14]] [ [15]] [ [16]] [ [17]] [ [18]] And of course a 60,000 large city in the 18th century: and second largest city in the Balkans that time "was" a metropolis. Alexikoua ( talk) 21:08, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
Moreover, the term Metropolis, is also related to the Aromanian diaspora, which originated from Moscopole (the term has the same meaning of the ancient Greek metropolis here). Alexikoua ( talk) 21:11, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
Referenced Elsie's review of Peyfuss: It's said to have contained 20-50k.-- Sulmues Let's talk 15:57, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
@Makrakis, there are dozens of books that name Moschopolis Aromanian metropolis [ [19]]. Can you please check at least one before you continue with this discussion? Saying that all this meanstream bibliography is useless isn't something reasonable.
@Sulmues, can I ask why you removed the 60,000 claim? Alexikoua ( talk) 19:58, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
Actually Peyfuss adopts the 70,000 claim. Also he says that Albanian historians claim that the population was 20,000 or lower [ [20]]. Alexikoua ( talk) 20:04, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
You are right, this part: [ [21]] gives the estimates of several authors. Alexikoua ( talk) 22:25, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
And Winnifrith, a specialist on the Aromanians adopts the 60,000 claim[ [22]]. However, none can be sure about the city's exact population number that time. Alexikoua ( talk) 22:33, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
Re the word "metropolis" -- in looking over the various sources cited in Talk and in the article, it becomes pretty clear that most of the uses of the term "metropolis" are in the sense of "mother country" or "homeland" (from the perspective of an emigrant or colonist), not in the sense of "very large city". This is especially clear in the Gilles de Rapper article, which is written by a French-speaking person and includes many uses of French terms. Other uses in the cited sources are referring to metropolis in the sense of the chief town of the Aromanians or of the region. In any case, I have tried to be more precise in the use of words -- 'metropolis' is too ambiguous, I think. -- Macrakis ( talk) 21:51, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
Can someone do pics mgmt here? I don't want to stir up any controversy. -- Sulmues Let's talk 16:04, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
bravo sulmues the change of voskopoja to moscopole in historical context is laudable.. 87.202.53.82 ( talk) 16:55, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
Is the book by Ben Blushi [24] "literature"? Seems more like a non-notable, pop culture anti-Muslim polemic. I also note that the novel itself is used as a ref, which is rather comical. Since I already know what the usual suspects are going to say, I'd be more interested in the opinion of neutral editors. Athenean ( talk) 21:04, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
Moscopole has been the main topic for hundreds of books/media through the last 200 years. The current section is the definition of pov since it mentions just one work, and should go as per wp:advertisment. Alexikoua ( talk) 10:02, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
[25].-- Sulmues ( talk) 18:01, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
According to this article of Albert Kotini, Eqerem Bej Vlora has written in his memories how the Dangellia region people destroyed Moscopole because the city hadn't paid protection taxes to them for 4 years. Someone should find what book exactly, because the article writer doesn't fully cite. -- Sulmues ( talk) 21:38, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
In fact the article current reads in the lede: "Historians have attributed the decline of the city to a series of raids by Muslim Albanian bands, who destroyed the town in 1769 following the participation of the residents in the preparations for the Orlov Revolt in 1770[4]," which comes from Mikropoulos. -- Sulmues ( talk) 21:41, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
There seems to be a conflict of sources. Kotini seems to endorse Vlora. -- Sulmues ( talk) 21:49, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
Also there was not a one day destruction but a 3 month long wave of destruction at 1769 (see Kekridis). A very detailed approach is also here [ [28]]. Alexikoua ( talk) 21:52, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
Actually Kotini is not excluding the hate of the locals versus the filorussians. He is adding to it the history that the locals sorrounding Moscopole had not been paid for 4 years (because the pasha of Vlora, Ngurresa had already promised protection to the traders), and that was another reason why they felt entitled to attack, and the Sultan couldn't protect on time. I am not saying that we have a RS: the article is not well sourced. I'm just prepping the terrain for when we'll have "Tragjedia e Voskopojës" from Dhori Falo, which will most likely include a similar background. Unfortunately it is not on google books yet. -- Sulmues ( talk) 21:56, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
Actually I found it [29]. And it is in Aromanian. This is a rarity, English sources will start picking up from Falo. -- Sulmues ( talk) 22:04, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
Not moved. Consensus appears to be to leave this here and split out the appropriate material into a new article. Vegaswikian ( talk) 21:54, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
Moscopole → Voskopojë – Name is only used by aromanians, the greek name is here even more logic than the aromanian name. Afcourse these article deserves the Albanian name, if we start adding everywhere an other not even official minorty langue to cities all Albanian names will be lost and will turn it in a mess, please move because now it is unaccepteble Vinie007 18:20, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
Oppose We've been over this several times in the past. "Moscopole", mostly for historical reasons, appears to be the most common name in reliable English language sources. Athenean ( talk) 19:09, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
Move Compare:
-- Vinie007 19:33, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
If we're going to split this article, I suggest we do it like Constantinople/ Istanbul. The Constantinople article covers the history of the city between 3rd century AD and 1453. The Istanbul article gives short summaries of the history of Byzantium and Constantinople, and gives detailed information on the period after 1453. For Moscopole/Voskopojë the split could be around 1800. Some sections could be in both articles, e.g. the architecture section (some of the churches are still there, and are a prominent feature of the village). Another option is to keep everything in one article and add good naming and demography sections. Markussep Talk 07:36, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
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The once prosperous city of Moscopole was a target of raids by Muslim Albanian bands in the late 18th century. Although the references are stating this in detail in the appropriate sections, they are not present in the lead, but this doesn't mean that the correspodent facts shouldn't part of the lead. Alexikoua ( talk) 12:43, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
I've just checked the already existing reference (Mikropoulos) and, all of the sudden, it perfectly confirms what the lede describes. Anyway a second inline is not bad to be there too. Alexikoua ( talk) 12:52, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
You must prove that the 18th century vlahs from Korca basain were with macedonian lands ancesterals a dousen centuries ago...! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.43.239.199 ( talk) 16:44, 4 January 2015 (UTC) Second not all of them turn back to animal husbandry. Most of them made a trade colonis in most of the macedonian towns, especialy in Bitola! Third there were massiv migration of ortodoxal christians (vlahs, albanians, greeks and bulgarians) from what is now Eastern Albania and Epir to Thrace and Macedonia. Caused from the musulman presure. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.43.239.199 ( talk) 19:44, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
Actually you need to provide the necessary reference with the correspondent quote which supports the fact that "the Aromanians who left Moschopolis did this...". Alexikoua ( talk) 23:36, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is moved from my talk page: -- T*U ( talk) 10:21, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
I saw you readded the name "Voskopolis" saying that the source is a greek one.This makes no sense as this is the English Wikipedia.As you can see at the article the alternative name of Moscopolis is Voskopoja,not Voskopolis.So please don't continue adding a greek name for Moscopole. Rolandi+ ( talk) 17:46, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
Someone claims that the theory of Muslim destruction of Moscopole is the main theory.This isn't true as the article says :"According to another opinion, the city's decline was mainly due to the relocation of the trade routes in central and eastern Europe following the aforementioned raids".There isn't any proof that the destruction by Muslims is the main theory. Rolandi+ ( talk) 14:03, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
It appears this is nothing more than your personal view: The inline reference states that the destruction theory is the traditionally held theory among historians, while the relocation of the trade routes as a main reason for the decline is just "a more recent scenario". Thus, you are just falsifying the inline reference. Alexikoua ( talk) 21:15, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
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I very much ask you to write correctly. In the Ottoman Empire, Rayah is run on a confessional basis, and all Orthodox, often and quite irrelevant to the age of romantic nationalism, are referred to as Greeks, but this designation is a symbol of denomination, not nationality. By the same token, you can classify Pella Palace as an achievement of Greek architecture. Angel Angel 2 ( talk) 14:22, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
The recent removal of "Moschopolis" form is clearly against WP:NCGN, which states: "Nevertheless, other names, especially those used significantly often (say, 10% of the time or more) in the available English literature on a place, past or present, should be mentioned in the article, as encyclopedic information. ". Moschopolis is widely used in English literature as the primary name of this settlement [ [31]], in fact the vast majority of mainstream research prefers this form (Fleming, Palairet, Winnifrith, Peyfuss, Kahl [ [32]] etc.) instead of any other. Alexikoua ( talk) 05:48, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or that is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted. Local official names should be listed before other alternate names if they differ from a widely accepted English name.So basically I should be OK to add Janina, Kostur, Preveza etc. Well thing is, I don't really want to do that, but what I want less is for double standards to exist. Alltan ( talk) 03:18, 8 October 2022 (UTC)
Since the name "Moschopolis" is obviously used in many English language sources (see for instance this Unesco report, page 21 of 126), it would be odd to not even mention it in this article, as is the case now. It definitely belongs in the "Names" section, and probably also in the lead, as a historical name, per WP:NCGN. About Ioannina: I found the name "Janina" in older English texts, for instance these British parliamentary papers (1879). "Janina" is mentioned in the "Name" section of the Ioannina article. Whether it should also be in the lead could be discussed at that talk page. Markussep Talk 09:17, 8 October 2022 (UTC)
Moschopolis, now Voskopoje This is a general trend in bibliography as I see. Almost 100% of the works dedicated to Moscopole follow this naming (Fleming, Palairet, Peyfuss, Kahl to name a view specialists on Aromanian issues). Alexikoua ( talk) 20:47, 8 October 2022 (UTC)
Google scholar indexes results from all academic publications and Google books.
Therefore, a)Moschopolis should be included in the lead sentence b)the article must be renamed as Voskopojë/a.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 22:14, 8 October 2022 (UTC)
As such Moscopole & Moschopolis variants: 498+299 = 797
The modern name, about the tiny current village and municipality, is not widely used as the Mosc(h)opole/-is forms. What's also interesting is that many Voskopoja hits provide the following quote: Moscopole (now Voskopojë) in south-eastern Albania not to mention that this search includes also Albanian language works (and excludes Greek). It would be better to put a filter on this. It would be also better to include the 1990-2000 period since too many important works were written in this period (Kahl, Peyfuss etc). Alexikoua ( talk) 03:14, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: No consensus. There is a numerical majority in support here, but as Wikipedians are aware, discussions are not decided by democracy. WP:CONSENSUS is formed by examining arguments made through the lens of policy. The ngram results (which are generally a much better indicator of WP:COMMONNAME than a Google scholar search is, which only examines a small subset and only considers academic papers, not wider usage) show that the combined total of "Moscopole" variants exceeds that of "Voskopojë" variants. The point was also made that this settlement has two distinct histories, a historical city and a modern small hamlet, and it is reasonable for those opposers to give more weight to the name of the settlement as it was when it was a large city. Overall, I don't see a consensus to move, after 11 days and extensive discussion. — Amakuru ( talk) 09:55, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
widely accepted English name( WP:NCGN). When there is no such name, the official, local name should be used which in this case is the one which leads in search results in academic publications. Hence, the article should be renamed to Voskopoja and all alternative names should be mentioned in the first sentence of the article - the exact manner which can be used is being debated in the above discussion. Maleschreiber ( talk) 23:44, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
:::The above 3 links you provided need correction, they provide 0 hits now.
Alexikoua (
talk) 02:14, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
For an article about a place whose name has changed over time, context is important. For articles discussing the present, use the modern English name (or local name, if there is no established English name), rather than an older one. Older names should be used in appropriate historical contexts when a substantial majority of reliable modern sources do the same; this includes the names of articles relating to particular historical periods. Names have changed both because cities have been formally renamed and because cities have been taken from one state by another; in both cases, however, we are interested in what reliable English-language sources now useThe name Moscopole should be used in its correct historical context and has a place in the article, but it is not representative of the modern situation.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 01:01, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
the name which should be used is the modern, local and official one and not an older or historical one.sorry but as I have stated already, the local name is Moscopole. Moscopole is also not an older nor historical name, more like the opposite. And regarding your comment on the official names, WP:OFFICIALNAMES clearly states at the start of the page that
People often assume that, where an official name exists for the subject of a Wikipedia article, that name is ipso facto the correct title for the article, and that if the article is under another title, then it should be moved. In many cases, this is contrary to Wikipedia practice and policy.And that
Many sources which refer to Moscopole refer to pre-19th century eventsis not true. The Ngrams links I've sent above show it's precisely in recent times that Moscopole is getting more use. It is indeed representative of modern times. Moschopolis is the one more common in older times. Super Ψ Dro 13:29, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
Use modern English names for titles and in articles. Historical names or names in other languages can be used in the lead if they are frequently used and important enough to be valuable to readers, and should be used in articles with caution.. The guideline clearly gives the reasoning behind this:
By following modern English usage, we also avoid arguments about what a place ought to be called, instead asking the less contentious question, what it is called.. Currently it is called Voskopojë. Even if there is no widely accepted English variant, which from the evidence above seems to still be Voskopojë (at least since 1990), we should still use the modern official name of the locality.
For articles discussing the present, use the modern English name (or local name, if there is no established English name), rather than an older one.In case users don't agree there is a established English name (which I don't see how, considering its largely been called Voskopojë for at least 3 decades), then they should concede to the rule that we must use the modern local name, which would still be Voskopojë. Alltan ( talk) 15:28, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
99% percent of the population of Albania, not Voskopoje. The issue is that the total number of Aromanians in Albania is irrelevant to them being a majority in Voskopojë. And I did give you the official census data, where only 5% of people said they were Aromanians, and 70% said they are Albanians. It's therefore your turn. Alltan ( talk) 17:07, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
I don't think it then makes much sense to consider the "local name" aspect herethen, as per the relevant polocy, the offical name (Voskopoja) should be used. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 18:51, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
"A report by Betsos, the Greek consul in Monastir, is very informative about the demographic composition of Moschopolis in 1900. Moscopolis: The old Vlach-speaking inhabitants of Moscopolis dispersed in all directions at the end of the eighteenth century, because the Moslem Albanians living round about pillages that once famed city, and the comparatively few remaining families gradually moved elsewhere, particularly to Korçë, which slowly became an important commercial centre. Of the old Vlach families, only about thirty remain in Moscopolis; but on the other hand, the widespread disorder ravaging the area of Opar has caused many Albanian speaking families to leave the barren, mountainous parts of the country and remove to Moscopolis, where they till the land and raise livestock. Able Vlach-speaking families came from two Vlach settlements to Moscopolis, of which the entire population at present amounts to 200 families, of which 120 are Albanian-speaking and the remaining 80 Vlach speaking. All the old Vlach-speaking families have remained true to [their Greek national consciousness], but for three, who, together with some of the newcomers, have been led astray by the unfrocked priest Kosmas. The Romanising families there number twenty in all."[1]
as per the relevant policy, the offical name (Voskopoja) should be used.Alltan ( talk) 19:03, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
He does not say it is mixed todayat most three generations passed. Not much must have changed. Definitively not a "mixed" to "Albanian" shift.
Consider the fact that large numbers Aromanians have migrated to Greece because of their pro-Greek feelings.emigration from Albania to Greece is a general phenomenon without ethnicity. We should not attempt to use this hypothetical case as it could go two ways, unless one is supported by academic sources, which is something most likely not studied.
So in Voskopoja we have around 70% Albanians and around 30% Aromanians with some Macedonians and Greeks.by user Ktrimi991 to go unreplied and therefore "assumed" as a truth for the rest of the discussion. It is quite possible this is close to the ethnic reality but I expect a number of the people with self-declared Albanian ethnicity to be assimilated Aromanians or people with mixed ethnicity (someone 50/50 would probably be proud of their Aromanian blood but feel primarily Albanian), and also some of the people who did not declare ethnicity to be Albanians, due to personal reasons they might have wished to hide their identity. There's a lot of circumstances to consider. Super Ψ Dro 20:00, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
This is particularly the case in Voskopojë and Vithkuq, which have a specific relationship to the outside world. Both villages are not only considered as former prosperous Christian cities; according to a part of the local population and to some historians, the two cities were in those times in majority or exclusively inhabited by Aromanians, locally known as Vlachs (Vllah), who flew away at the time of the destruction" and, finally:
After several assaults and destruction by its Muslim neighbours, Voskopojë is no more than a big village in which Aromanian population is not in majority anymore. Albanian-speaking Christians and Muslims have come and settled, especially after the Second World War, when life conditions became more attractive in what was turned into an administrative centre rather than in remote mountain villages.So yet again, the local name, as well as the official one, is Voskopojë. Alltan ( talk) 20:12, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
Comment: The pro-move voters claim the proposed name being more common which is not true. Also the pro-move voters seem to ignore the fact that in their majority, the sources focuse on the historical city, not the small village in its place. The participants are reminded that it isn't the number of votes that determines a RM's outcome, but the strength of arguments supported by the evidence. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 21:06, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
When a widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it. This will often be a local name, or one of them; but not always. If the place does not exist anymore, or the article deals only with a place in a period when it held a different name, the widely accepted historical English name should be used. If neither of these English names exist, the modern official name (in articles dealing with the present) or the modern local historical name (in articles dealing with a specific period) should be used.It is obvious from online research (GB, GS etc) that Moscopole is preferred by history books, and Voskopojë is almost always used by books concerned with modern issues, news agencies and tourism articles. These matters are also addressed by WP:NCGN when it says that :
If no name can be shown to be widely accepted in English, use the local name. If that is not enough, then per WP:OFFICIALNAMES the offical name should be used. Which is the official name can't be disputed by anyone. There is only one. In all options provided by the relevant policy, Voskopojë is the ones to be used. If editors can't agree on which is the most used name, then the policy says the local offical one should be used. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 20:06, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
Maximilian Peyfuss, that is the most credible source for the printing press of Moscopole, shows how the hypothesis on two Gregory's has no scientific backing. Gregory Konstandinidis, later became the Metropolitan of Durrës, and that is stated by Zabiras who was his contemporary. Anna Comnena ( talk) 22:07, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
A recent addition states that Ottoman documents from the 16th-17th centuries use the variant Voskopoja, nevertheless Ottoman documents mention the following forms (from the very first appearance in records in 1697): Uskopol and later Iskupol, Oskopol. What's also surprising is that Mitrou mentions one name for this settlement Βοσκόπολις /Voskopolis not Vokopoja. Alexikoua ( talk) 03:41, 26 March 2023 (UTC)
In this way, regarding the events of the years 1660-1687, in agreements concluded between the monks of the monasteries, the notables and the archons of the three districts of the city, where the name of the city is given in the form Voskopoja.There are more such examples. Super Ψ Dro 07:55, 26 March 2023 (UTC)
Meanwhile stop accusing Xhufi.... I will also apply this advice on me.
We note on the other hand that, in the Ottoman documents that we have used, we systematically find the name under the variant "Voskopoja" and this fact does not seem to us to be unimportant. This form is also that used by Meletios, an 18th century author, in his geography text.The affirmation on the text seems to simply be wrong, unless Xhufi is analysing Voskopolis together with Voskopoja and separate from Moskopolis. Not sure what to do here. Super Ψ Dro 14:37, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
Indeed, this agglomeration appears late in historical documents under the name Voskopoja-Voskopol or under its other variant Moskopol.page 9. That the text in this article would only focus on Voskopoja would then be inappropriate. Apparently, after adressing he is analysing both variants together, he affirms
Under these circumstances, it can be assumed that the Voskopoja form was the oldest, used mainly by the Albanian population(page 10), even though Voskopolis is an obviously Greek form. He also calls variants starting with M (in contrast to those starting with V, that's how he apparently decided to split the ways of calling this settlement) as Aromanian even though Moskopolis is the most widely used Greek form and Aromanians also use forms starting with V.
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Macrakis, do you have any source on Albanians in Voskopoja? From the sources I read, back then there was no significant Albanian population in the city. bogdan 19:11, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
See page 9 of [1]:
The multilingual glossaries published there (Kavaliotis, Daniil) also indicate that Albanian was one of the local languages. I'd be happy to see more sources. -- Macrakis 20:59, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
I don't dispute the fact that there were Albanians or Greeks in Voskopoja. All Balkan commercial towns had lots of ethnicities at the time, it's just that most sources say Voskopoja was overwhelmingly Aromanian.
Johann Thunmann (1746-1778) who actually visited the town said that "everyone" in the city spoke Aromanian and many also spoke Greek.
Maria N. Todorova wrote in "Balkan Identities: Nation and Memory" (2004):
bogdan 21:26, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
What current Aromanian informants say isn't very helpful for the 18th century -- and we have to be careful of ethnic boosterism, as Peyfuss points out:
(from cited Elsie review) I have no axe to grind here. It is clear that Moschopolis was destroyed by Muslim Albanians; the role of Christian Albanians seems less clear, and I'd be happy to see more evidence one way or the other. (see also http://www.farsarotul.org/nl17_1.htm -- nothing decisive, but interesting) -- Macrakis 21:32, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Both the Swedish & Deutch Wiki use the Albanian name Voskopoja for the article, and not the Greek one. The Albanian name Voskopoja also have more google hits than the Greek name Moscopole! Plus the city is situated in Albania not Greece!
-- Albanau 12:32, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Albanau this article refers mainly to the 18th century commercial center not to the poor little village it is nowadays. It's name back then was Moscopole, i think we have all agreed on that. Also... uhmmm Greece? this city was MAINLY part of Aromanian history not Greek or Albanian and Moscopolea is how they call it. 86.104.216.79 13:08, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Voskopoja also is a Greek-origin name Voskos shepherd and poli city poja(slavicized or aromanized maybe)
What is current ethno-linguistical of today's Voskopoja? Luka Jačov ( talk) 17:40, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
Dear Alexikoua, let me remind you what you said earlier at User talk:Aqwis' talk page:
Now, the lead page has it: Moscopole [...] is a small village in southeastern Albania. I’m perplexed, Moscopole is
Voskopoja was an Albanian Christian city ,here a vigorous Albanian movement developed , it involved comparison of various alphabet used to express the Albanian language ..The academy of Voskopoja proved very influential in Albanian literary and of national Albanian consciousnesses …Theodor Kavalioti of Voskopoja 1718-1797 director of New Academy published a scholarly study of Albanian of 1200 Albanian words.Kavalioti wanted to setup a press in Elbasan too, he want in person to escort the heavy boxes …..Another four language vocabulary by Dhanil Mihal Adam Haxhi in 1794 included 235 sentences in Albanian regarding daily life The Albanians: an ethnic history from prehistoric times to the present By Edwin E. Jacques http://books.google.com/books?id=IJ2s9sQ9bGkC&pg=PA281&dq=voskopoja+albanian+culture#v=onepage&q=voskopoja%20albanian%20culture&f=false —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.60.29.118 ( talk) 09:56, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
This book [ [2]] says also that Albanians trace their roots to Achilles and other heroes of the siege of Troy... How could it be historical? Alexikoua ( talk) 10:48, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
The specific book is fiction. That's easy to understand if we take a paragraph at random. Alexikoua ( talk) 19:40, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
I think there should be a section on the origin of the name, which means "city of the sheppherds", voskos, moschos, in both its forms. Guildenrich 18:38, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
Moscopole → Moschopolis — - [All the sources linked in the article, use the name "Moschopolis" and not "Moscopole".] -- Guildenrich ( talk) 03:46, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
I love this quantitative logic! With this logic in Russia all occupied "Republics" were Russian, because you certainly would find the most hits to their names in Russian, in recent literature. Did anybody hear what was said above: this is about a major and extinct metropole of the South Balcans, which was a commercial one, with Aromanian majority, but cosmopolitan as a commercial city is. The fact can be followed also in the families of merchants that emigrated, mostly to Vienna and Budapest after the city was distroyed. Peyfuss writes about this, he himself is descendant of such a family. 79.241.128.81 ( talk) 19:36, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
Guildenrich (
talk) 17:14, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
Apart from the google hits argument, which doesn't sound enough, the move is a bit unclear. The city was an Arumanian metropolis, which played a major role in Greek Enlightenment. Since the diferrence is minimal Moscopole-Moschopolis, sounds quite the same, in contrast with the Thebes,_Egypt name case, I suggest to keep the Arumanian name. The city was inhabited by Arumanians, so this name form should preferred. Alexikoua ( talk) 14:37, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
- No established usage
- It can happen that an otherwise notable topic has not yet received much attention in the English-speaking world, so that there are too few English sources to constitute an established usage. Very low google counts can but need not be indicative of this. If this happens, follow the conventions of the language in which the entity is most often talked about (German for German politicians, Turkish for Turkish rivers, Portuguese for Brazilian towns etc.).
- If, as will happen, there are several competing foreign terms, a neutral one is often best. For example see the suggestions in the sections " multiple local names" and " use modern names" in WP:NC (geographic names) for ideas on how to deal with this problem.
Google Scholar: Moschopolis 129 hits. [8] vs. Moscopole 50 hits [9]. Guildenrich ( talk) 21:06, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
There is also Moskopole 9, Moskopolje 6, Moskopol 6, Moschopol 2, Moschopoli 5. It seems the name exists in various similar forms. Alexikoua ( talk) 15:05, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
I see that travelguides adopt the Voskopoja/e form, on the other hand most academic/encyclopedic researches prefer the m-. Alexikoua ( talk) 18:08, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
Guild. has become very disruptive in his edits, seems his first block had the opposite results. The move to 'Voschopolis' is imposible. Alexikoua ( talk) 17:09, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
Guildenrich ( talk) 15:07, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
What does that mean? Can someone please translate as Guildenrich has been banned? sulmues ( talk)--Sulmues 15:35, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
It refers to the village as Voskopolis in Greek as opposed to Moschopolis. I think there's no doubt though that the most common name for the village in Greek is Moschopolis.-- Ptolion ( talk) 15:54, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
It seems that a number of sources say that it was a Metropolis: [ [14]] [ [15]] [ [16]] [ [17]] [ [18]] And of course a 60,000 large city in the 18th century: and second largest city in the Balkans that time "was" a metropolis. Alexikoua ( talk) 21:08, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
Moreover, the term Metropolis, is also related to the Aromanian diaspora, which originated from Moscopole (the term has the same meaning of the ancient Greek metropolis here). Alexikoua ( talk) 21:11, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
Referenced Elsie's review of Peyfuss: It's said to have contained 20-50k.-- Sulmues Let's talk 15:57, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
@Makrakis, there are dozens of books that name Moschopolis Aromanian metropolis [ [19]]. Can you please check at least one before you continue with this discussion? Saying that all this meanstream bibliography is useless isn't something reasonable.
@Sulmues, can I ask why you removed the 60,000 claim? Alexikoua ( talk) 19:58, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
Actually Peyfuss adopts the 70,000 claim. Also he says that Albanian historians claim that the population was 20,000 or lower [ [20]]. Alexikoua ( talk) 20:04, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
You are right, this part: [ [21]] gives the estimates of several authors. Alexikoua ( talk) 22:25, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
And Winnifrith, a specialist on the Aromanians adopts the 60,000 claim[ [22]]. However, none can be sure about the city's exact population number that time. Alexikoua ( talk) 22:33, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
Re the word "metropolis" -- in looking over the various sources cited in Talk and in the article, it becomes pretty clear that most of the uses of the term "metropolis" are in the sense of "mother country" or "homeland" (from the perspective of an emigrant or colonist), not in the sense of "very large city". This is especially clear in the Gilles de Rapper article, which is written by a French-speaking person and includes many uses of French terms. Other uses in the cited sources are referring to metropolis in the sense of the chief town of the Aromanians or of the region. In any case, I have tried to be more precise in the use of words -- 'metropolis' is too ambiguous, I think. -- Macrakis ( talk) 21:51, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
Can someone do pics mgmt here? I don't want to stir up any controversy. -- Sulmues Let's talk 16:04, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
bravo sulmues the change of voskopoja to moscopole in historical context is laudable.. 87.202.53.82 ( talk) 16:55, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
Is the book by Ben Blushi [24] "literature"? Seems more like a non-notable, pop culture anti-Muslim polemic. I also note that the novel itself is used as a ref, which is rather comical. Since I already know what the usual suspects are going to say, I'd be more interested in the opinion of neutral editors. Athenean ( talk) 21:04, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
Moscopole has been the main topic for hundreds of books/media through the last 200 years. The current section is the definition of pov since it mentions just one work, and should go as per wp:advertisment. Alexikoua ( talk) 10:02, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
[25].-- Sulmues ( talk) 18:01, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
According to this article of Albert Kotini, Eqerem Bej Vlora has written in his memories how the Dangellia region people destroyed Moscopole because the city hadn't paid protection taxes to them for 4 years. Someone should find what book exactly, because the article writer doesn't fully cite. -- Sulmues ( talk) 21:38, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
In fact the article current reads in the lede: "Historians have attributed the decline of the city to a series of raids by Muslim Albanian bands, who destroyed the town in 1769 following the participation of the residents in the preparations for the Orlov Revolt in 1770[4]," which comes from Mikropoulos. -- Sulmues ( talk) 21:41, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
There seems to be a conflict of sources. Kotini seems to endorse Vlora. -- Sulmues ( talk) 21:49, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
Also there was not a one day destruction but a 3 month long wave of destruction at 1769 (see Kekridis). A very detailed approach is also here [ [28]]. Alexikoua ( talk) 21:52, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
Actually Kotini is not excluding the hate of the locals versus the filorussians. He is adding to it the history that the locals sorrounding Moscopole had not been paid for 4 years (because the pasha of Vlora, Ngurresa had already promised protection to the traders), and that was another reason why they felt entitled to attack, and the Sultan couldn't protect on time. I am not saying that we have a RS: the article is not well sourced. I'm just prepping the terrain for when we'll have "Tragjedia e Voskopojës" from Dhori Falo, which will most likely include a similar background. Unfortunately it is not on google books yet. -- Sulmues ( talk) 21:56, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
Actually I found it [29]. And it is in Aromanian. This is a rarity, English sources will start picking up from Falo. -- Sulmues ( talk) 22:04, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
Not moved. Consensus appears to be to leave this here and split out the appropriate material into a new article. Vegaswikian ( talk) 21:54, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
Moscopole → Voskopojë – Name is only used by aromanians, the greek name is here even more logic than the aromanian name. Afcourse these article deserves the Albanian name, if we start adding everywhere an other not even official minorty langue to cities all Albanian names will be lost and will turn it in a mess, please move because now it is unaccepteble Vinie007 18:20, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
Oppose We've been over this several times in the past. "Moscopole", mostly for historical reasons, appears to be the most common name in reliable English language sources. Athenean ( talk) 19:09, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
Move Compare:
-- Vinie007 19:33, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
If we're going to split this article, I suggest we do it like Constantinople/ Istanbul. The Constantinople article covers the history of the city between 3rd century AD and 1453. The Istanbul article gives short summaries of the history of Byzantium and Constantinople, and gives detailed information on the period after 1453. For Moscopole/Voskopojë the split could be around 1800. Some sections could be in both articles, e.g. the architecture section (some of the churches are still there, and are a prominent feature of the village). Another option is to keep everything in one article and add good naming and demography sections. Markussep Talk 07:36, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
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The once prosperous city of Moscopole was a target of raids by Muslim Albanian bands in the late 18th century. Although the references are stating this in detail in the appropriate sections, they are not present in the lead, but this doesn't mean that the correspodent facts shouldn't part of the lead. Alexikoua ( talk) 12:43, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
I've just checked the already existing reference (Mikropoulos) and, all of the sudden, it perfectly confirms what the lede describes. Anyway a second inline is not bad to be there too. Alexikoua ( talk) 12:52, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
You must prove that the 18th century vlahs from Korca basain were with macedonian lands ancesterals a dousen centuries ago...! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.43.239.199 ( talk) 16:44, 4 January 2015 (UTC) Second not all of them turn back to animal husbandry. Most of them made a trade colonis in most of the macedonian towns, especialy in Bitola! Third there were massiv migration of ortodoxal christians (vlahs, albanians, greeks and bulgarians) from what is now Eastern Albania and Epir to Thrace and Macedonia. Caused from the musulman presure. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.43.239.199 ( talk) 19:44, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
Actually you need to provide the necessary reference with the correspondent quote which supports the fact that "the Aromanians who left Moschopolis did this...". Alexikoua ( talk) 23:36, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is moved from my talk page: -- T*U ( talk) 10:21, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
I saw you readded the name "Voskopolis" saying that the source is a greek one.This makes no sense as this is the English Wikipedia.As you can see at the article the alternative name of Moscopolis is Voskopoja,not Voskopolis.So please don't continue adding a greek name for Moscopole. Rolandi+ ( talk) 17:46, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
Someone claims that the theory of Muslim destruction of Moscopole is the main theory.This isn't true as the article says :"According to another opinion, the city's decline was mainly due to the relocation of the trade routes in central and eastern Europe following the aforementioned raids".There isn't any proof that the destruction by Muslims is the main theory. Rolandi+ ( talk) 14:03, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
It appears this is nothing more than your personal view: The inline reference states that the destruction theory is the traditionally held theory among historians, while the relocation of the trade routes as a main reason for the decline is just "a more recent scenario". Thus, you are just falsifying the inline reference. Alexikoua ( talk) 21:15, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
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I very much ask you to write correctly. In the Ottoman Empire, Rayah is run on a confessional basis, and all Orthodox, often and quite irrelevant to the age of romantic nationalism, are referred to as Greeks, but this designation is a symbol of denomination, not nationality. By the same token, you can classify Pella Palace as an achievement of Greek architecture. Angel Angel 2 ( talk) 14:22, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
The recent removal of "Moschopolis" form is clearly against WP:NCGN, which states: "Nevertheless, other names, especially those used significantly often (say, 10% of the time or more) in the available English literature on a place, past or present, should be mentioned in the article, as encyclopedic information. ". Moschopolis is widely used in English literature as the primary name of this settlement [ [31]], in fact the vast majority of mainstream research prefers this form (Fleming, Palairet, Winnifrith, Peyfuss, Kahl [ [32]] etc.) instead of any other. Alexikoua ( talk) 05:48, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or that is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted. Local official names should be listed before other alternate names if they differ from a widely accepted English name.So basically I should be OK to add Janina, Kostur, Preveza etc. Well thing is, I don't really want to do that, but what I want less is for double standards to exist. Alltan ( talk) 03:18, 8 October 2022 (UTC)
Since the name "Moschopolis" is obviously used in many English language sources (see for instance this Unesco report, page 21 of 126), it would be odd to not even mention it in this article, as is the case now. It definitely belongs in the "Names" section, and probably also in the lead, as a historical name, per WP:NCGN. About Ioannina: I found the name "Janina" in older English texts, for instance these British parliamentary papers (1879). "Janina" is mentioned in the "Name" section of the Ioannina article. Whether it should also be in the lead could be discussed at that talk page. Markussep Talk 09:17, 8 October 2022 (UTC)
Moschopolis, now Voskopoje This is a general trend in bibliography as I see. Almost 100% of the works dedicated to Moscopole follow this naming (Fleming, Palairet, Peyfuss, Kahl to name a view specialists on Aromanian issues). Alexikoua ( talk) 20:47, 8 October 2022 (UTC)
Google scholar indexes results from all academic publications and Google books.
Therefore, a)Moschopolis should be included in the lead sentence b)the article must be renamed as Voskopojë/a.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 22:14, 8 October 2022 (UTC)
As such Moscopole & Moschopolis variants: 498+299 = 797
The modern name, about the tiny current village and municipality, is not widely used as the Mosc(h)opole/-is forms. What's also interesting is that many Voskopoja hits provide the following quote: Moscopole (now Voskopojë) in south-eastern Albania not to mention that this search includes also Albanian language works (and excludes Greek). It would be better to put a filter on this. It would be also better to include the 1990-2000 period since too many important works were written in this period (Kahl, Peyfuss etc). Alexikoua ( talk) 03:14, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: No consensus. There is a numerical majority in support here, but as Wikipedians are aware, discussions are not decided by democracy. WP:CONSENSUS is formed by examining arguments made through the lens of policy. The ngram results (which are generally a much better indicator of WP:COMMONNAME than a Google scholar search is, which only examines a small subset and only considers academic papers, not wider usage) show that the combined total of "Moscopole" variants exceeds that of "Voskopojë" variants. The point was also made that this settlement has two distinct histories, a historical city and a modern small hamlet, and it is reasonable for those opposers to give more weight to the name of the settlement as it was when it was a large city. Overall, I don't see a consensus to move, after 11 days and extensive discussion. — Amakuru ( talk) 09:55, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
widely accepted English name( WP:NCGN). When there is no such name, the official, local name should be used which in this case is the one which leads in search results in academic publications. Hence, the article should be renamed to Voskopoja and all alternative names should be mentioned in the first sentence of the article - the exact manner which can be used is being debated in the above discussion. Maleschreiber ( talk) 23:44, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
:::The above 3 links you provided need correction, they provide 0 hits now.
Alexikoua (
talk) 02:14, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
For an article about a place whose name has changed over time, context is important. For articles discussing the present, use the modern English name (or local name, if there is no established English name), rather than an older one. Older names should be used in appropriate historical contexts when a substantial majority of reliable modern sources do the same; this includes the names of articles relating to particular historical periods. Names have changed both because cities have been formally renamed and because cities have been taken from one state by another; in both cases, however, we are interested in what reliable English-language sources now useThe name Moscopole should be used in its correct historical context and has a place in the article, but it is not representative of the modern situation.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 01:01, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
the name which should be used is the modern, local and official one and not an older or historical one.sorry but as I have stated already, the local name is Moscopole. Moscopole is also not an older nor historical name, more like the opposite. And regarding your comment on the official names, WP:OFFICIALNAMES clearly states at the start of the page that
People often assume that, where an official name exists for the subject of a Wikipedia article, that name is ipso facto the correct title for the article, and that if the article is under another title, then it should be moved. In many cases, this is contrary to Wikipedia practice and policy.And that
Many sources which refer to Moscopole refer to pre-19th century eventsis not true. The Ngrams links I've sent above show it's precisely in recent times that Moscopole is getting more use. It is indeed representative of modern times. Moschopolis is the one more common in older times. Super Ψ Dro 13:29, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
Use modern English names for titles and in articles. Historical names or names in other languages can be used in the lead if they are frequently used and important enough to be valuable to readers, and should be used in articles with caution.. The guideline clearly gives the reasoning behind this:
By following modern English usage, we also avoid arguments about what a place ought to be called, instead asking the less contentious question, what it is called.. Currently it is called Voskopojë. Even if there is no widely accepted English variant, which from the evidence above seems to still be Voskopojë (at least since 1990), we should still use the modern official name of the locality.
For articles discussing the present, use the modern English name (or local name, if there is no established English name), rather than an older one.In case users don't agree there is a established English name (which I don't see how, considering its largely been called Voskopojë for at least 3 decades), then they should concede to the rule that we must use the modern local name, which would still be Voskopojë. Alltan ( talk) 15:28, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
99% percent of the population of Albania, not Voskopoje. The issue is that the total number of Aromanians in Albania is irrelevant to them being a majority in Voskopojë. And I did give you the official census data, where only 5% of people said they were Aromanians, and 70% said they are Albanians. It's therefore your turn. Alltan ( talk) 17:07, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
I don't think it then makes much sense to consider the "local name" aspect herethen, as per the relevant polocy, the offical name (Voskopoja) should be used. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 18:51, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
"A report by Betsos, the Greek consul in Monastir, is very informative about the demographic composition of Moschopolis in 1900. Moscopolis: The old Vlach-speaking inhabitants of Moscopolis dispersed in all directions at the end of the eighteenth century, because the Moslem Albanians living round about pillages that once famed city, and the comparatively few remaining families gradually moved elsewhere, particularly to Korçë, which slowly became an important commercial centre. Of the old Vlach families, only about thirty remain in Moscopolis; but on the other hand, the widespread disorder ravaging the area of Opar has caused many Albanian speaking families to leave the barren, mountainous parts of the country and remove to Moscopolis, where they till the land and raise livestock. Able Vlach-speaking families came from two Vlach settlements to Moscopolis, of which the entire population at present amounts to 200 families, of which 120 are Albanian-speaking and the remaining 80 Vlach speaking. All the old Vlach-speaking families have remained true to [their Greek national consciousness], but for three, who, together with some of the newcomers, have been led astray by the unfrocked priest Kosmas. The Romanising families there number twenty in all."[1]
as per the relevant policy, the offical name (Voskopoja) should be used.Alltan ( talk) 19:03, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
He does not say it is mixed todayat most three generations passed. Not much must have changed. Definitively not a "mixed" to "Albanian" shift.
Consider the fact that large numbers Aromanians have migrated to Greece because of their pro-Greek feelings.emigration from Albania to Greece is a general phenomenon without ethnicity. We should not attempt to use this hypothetical case as it could go two ways, unless one is supported by academic sources, which is something most likely not studied.
So in Voskopoja we have around 70% Albanians and around 30% Aromanians with some Macedonians and Greeks.by user Ktrimi991 to go unreplied and therefore "assumed" as a truth for the rest of the discussion. It is quite possible this is close to the ethnic reality but I expect a number of the people with self-declared Albanian ethnicity to be assimilated Aromanians or people with mixed ethnicity (someone 50/50 would probably be proud of their Aromanian blood but feel primarily Albanian), and also some of the people who did not declare ethnicity to be Albanians, due to personal reasons they might have wished to hide their identity. There's a lot of circumstances to consider. Super Ψ Dro 20:00, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
This is particularly the case in Voskopojë and Vithkuq, which have a specific relationship to the outside world. Both villages are not only considered as former prosperous Christian cities; according to a part of the local population and to some historians, the two cities were in those times in majority or exclusively inhabited by Aromanians, locally known as Vlachs (Vllah), who flew away at the time of the destruction" and, finally:
After several assaults and destruction by its Muslim neighbours, Voskopojë is no more than a big village in which Aromanian population is not in majority anymore. Albanian-speaking Christians and Muslims have come and settled, especially after the Second World War, when life conditions became more attractive in what was turned into an administrative centre rather than in remote mountain villages.So yet again, the local name, as well as the official one, is Voskopojë. Alltan ( talk) 20:12, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
Comment: The pro-move voters claim the proposed name being more common which is not true. Also the pro-move voters seem to ignore the fact that in their majority, the sources focuse on the historical city, not the small village in its place. The participants are reminded that it isn't the number of votes that determines a RM's outcome, but the strength of arguments supported by the evidence. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 21:06, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
When a widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it. This will often be a local name, or one of them; but not always. If the place does not exist anymore, or the article deals only with a place in a period when it held a different name, the widely accepted historical English name should be used. If neither of these English names exist, the modern official name (in articles dealing with the present) or the modern local historical name (in articles dealing with a specific period) should be used.It is obvious from online research (GB, GS etc) that Moscopole is preferred by history books, and Voskopojë is almost always used by books concerned with modern issues, news agencies and tourism articles. These matters are also addressed by WP:NCGN when it says that :
If no name can be shown to be widely accepted in English, use the local name. If that is not enough, then per WP:OFFICIALNAMES the offical name should be used. Which is the official name can't be disputed by anyone. There is only one. In all options provided by the relevant policy, Voskopojë is the ones to be used. If editors can't agree on which is the most used name, then the policy says the local offical one should be used. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 20:06, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
Maximilian Peyfuss, that is the most credible source for the printing press of Moscopole, shows how the hypothesis on two Gregory's has no scientific backing. Gregory Konstandinidis, later became the Metropolitan of Durrës, and that is stated by Zabiras who was his contemporary. Anna Comnena ( talk) 22:07, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
A recent addition states that Ottoman documents from the 16th-17th centuries use the variant Voskopoja, nevertheless Ottoman documents mention the following forms (from the very first appearance in records in 1697): Uskopol and later Iskupol, Oskopol. What's also surprising is that Mitrou mentions one name for this settlement Βοσκόπολις /Voskopolis not Vokopoja. Alexikoua ( talk) 03:41, 26 March 2023 (UTC)
In this way, regarding the events of the years 1660-1687, in agreements concluded between the monks of the monasteries, the notables and the archons of the three districts of the city, where the name of the city is given in the form Voskopoja.There are more such examples. Super Ψ Dro 07:55, 26 March 2023 (UTC)
Meanwhile stop accusing Xhufi.... I will also apply this advice on me.
We note on the other hand that, in the Ottoman documents that we have used, we systematically find the name under the variant "Voskopoja" and this fact does not seem to us to be unimportant. This form is also that used by Meletios, an 18th century author, in his geography text.The affirmation on the text seems to simply be wrong, unless Xhufi is analysing Voskopolis together with Voskopoja and separate from Moskopolis. Not sure what to do here. Super Ψ Dro 14:37, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
Indeed, this agglomeration appears late in historical documents under the name Voskopoja-Voskopol or under its other variant Moskopol.page 9. That the text in this article would only focus on Voskopoja would then be inappropriate. Apparently, after adressing he is analysing both variants together, he affirms
Under these circumstances, it can be assumed that the Voskopoja form was the oldest, used mainly by the Albanian population(page 10), even though Voskopolis is an obviously Greek form. He also calls variants starting with M (in contrast to those starting with V, that's how he apparently decided to split the ways of calling this settlement) as Aromanian even though Moskopolis is the most widely used Greek form and Aromanians also use forms starting with V.