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I've twice posted an external link to www.allaboutmormons.com, a site with facts about Mormonism that seems relevant to this site. It has twice been deleted as "spam." Just wanted to better understand what you guys consider "spam," seeing as how the site is well researched.
Thanks.
Someone keeps inserting a section regarding an alleged false prophecy by Joseph Smith and others keep reverting it. Is there something we can do to end this childish behavior?
To the writer of the information -- you have every right to include pertinent, documented information. I don't think, however, that this is the correct Wikipedia article for the information you present. Can you discuss this with us to find a more appropriate location? andersonpd 19:31, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Looking for participants in the the discussion of List of religions once classed as cults cairoi 14:20, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Not meaning to step on toes here... If this page need return to a redirect to Mormon, so be it -- I notice the same has been done for Catholic/Catholicism and Protestant/Protestantism. I felt there was an important difference, but perhaps Wiki policy/practice dictates that the above information should be merged in under "Mormon" and this page reverted. LennyG
There are so many articles, now, with the word "Mormonism" in their title (see, e.g., Restoration (Mormonism), Priesthood (Mormonism), etc.), that we have to have an actual Mormonism article! This usage would be in conformance with the widespread usage of the word "Mormonism" in such publications as the oft-cited Encyclopedia of Mormonism. It would also put this article in conformance with Wikipedia standards, which prefer such titles as Catholicism, Protestantism, and Methodism to "Catholic", "Protestant", and "Methodist". COGDEN 20:50, 1 Dec 2003 (UTC)
This article is nearly verbatim identical to Latter Day Saint movement. Is that article needed at all? Is there a real difference between the two terms? If there is, should we not keep things clean and reduce the redundancy? Who realy uses that term? Hawstom 20:59, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I agree with Hawstom's comments. There is no need for Latter Day Saint movement...all of the material on that article should be merged with this article on Mormonism. B 22:42, Feb 4, 2004 (UTC)
Do we have to go through Votes For Deletion? I've never done that before. I suggest a Redirection from that page to Mormonism. Or a short explanation of the term itself along with a pointer that what it really means is Mormonism Hawstom 02:05, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)
As a Latter-day Saint myself, this is my perspective: Mormonism should be used to describe the theology and culture of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints only. On the other hand, the Latter Day Saint movement, as the [User:COGDEN|above Wikipedian]] pointed out, is more of historical value. In being so, the Latter Day Saint movement encapsulates all churches that accept the teachings of Joseph Smith and/or take the Book of Mormon as scripture. To illustrate, members of the Community of Christ absolutely hate being called "Mormons," but accept the term Latter Day Saint (note punctuation), even though they accept the Book of Mormon as scripture. By this, we can see that Mormonism is essentially limited to the practices of one church, whereas the Latter Day Saint movement is the common history of several churches. One word of caution, though: the Community of Christ seems to be a bit selective about it's history. For example, they use an older edition of the Doctrine and Covenants and question the fact that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy (sections pertaining to polygamy, regard for race in priesthood, etc. were added later in JS's life). Bccomm 17:56, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)
True. We need to clarify these issues. I am afraid we may not be accurately presenting all the points of views. I know of no FLDS editors or CofC editors, though I have good contacts who could provide guidance for both. One example of the need to clarify is the disputed between Mormonism and Christianity. Which branches are parties to this conflict? All in the same way? Tom 20:17, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Umm, Is this the right page to list all the sub-sects of Mormonism? This gets confusing to me, and the entropy never ends. If it is, why should we give Strangites honorable mention, but not FLDS. Isn't FLDS at 20,000 bigger? Hawstom 02:34, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I removed the Mormon Israelites. I am going to try to find a better home for it. Excellent contribution. Tom (hawstom) 21:51, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I changed "Christian" to "Non-Mormon" to make it more inclusive. ChessPlayer 22:35, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Chess, I think that it is only Christians who gag at classifying Mormonism as a branch of Christianity. Non-Christians pretty much agree M is a branch of C. I think saying some C reject M as a C branch gives the more accurate understanding. Would you consider reverting? Tom (hawstom) 22:34, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
If anyone who claims to be a branch of Christianity is a branch of Christianity, then Latter Day Saints are a branch of Christianity. If anyone who claims to be a follower of Christ is a Christian, then any Latter Day Saints who claim to follow Christ are Christians. The question here is not whether Latter Day Saints are Christians, but "What is a Christian?" and who is qualified to answer that question. Too bad Christ Himself is currently unavailible for comment. -- NERD42 EMAIL TALK H2G2 UNCYC NEWS 01:07, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
I find it a little disturbing watching people decide that someone who may be ignorant of the differences that do exist between Christian and Mormon doctrine is still qualified to categorize Mormonism as a part of Christianity. Going by some of the logic I see at work here, you could classify an atheist as a christian if enough people agree that this is a reasonable proposition. But is objective truth established by a consensus of public opinion ? Or by facts ? It really isn't that hard to weigh Mormon doctrine against the bible, with careful consideration given to the major doctrines that are accepted by all Christians, and see that there are serious differences... just my two cents. 58.106.231.44 21:42, 25 February, 2006 (UTC)
I think President Gordon Hinckley said something to the effect of whoever controls the definition of christian therefore decides who is in and who is out- but we are too busy for these kind of arguments- we believe in Jesus Christ as we understand him and that is that. Isaac Crumm 10:14, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
I pulled the list page out of the "see also" and made it explicit in the article that this listing exists. The listing is the main point of this page, or should be. ChessPlayer 20:51, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)
copied from User_talk:Gilgamesh 02:02, 5 July 2004 (UTC):
Moving Mormonism and Mormonism and Judaism were mistakes and you need to change them back. Next time please propose and discuss making such drastic changes in the talk pages before doing so. For example, please review Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Mormonism) and the Church's media guide here stating: "The term “Mormonism” is acceptable in describing the combination of doctrine [i.e. "theology"], culture and lifestyle unique to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." — B| Talk 17:59, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Well, Dan, I think that about does it. I will remove the NPOV dispute after adding a note that to some the term Mormonism is very offensive. Tom 02:36, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Most people recognize offhand the term "Mormon" or "Mormonism" than than "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints". I think that's the best arguement for keeping the term. The Scurvy Eye 20:45, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
I liked your October 8 expansion, COGDEN, it made is clear for me that the CJCLDS church that I had been fully equating with Mormonism is actually just a subset sect of it. Could we slso throw in a few references to some example entities or sects other than the CJCLDS church that are also within Mormonism? -- Gary D 19:40, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)
"While Mormonism as a whole covers a broad range of beliefs, the belief in prophecy tends to limit the scope of theology available to zealous followers within each individual sect." I'd like to see you explain this a little better, COGDEN. Even I had a really hard time seeing through to what it really meant, and I only Think I understand. Tom - Talk 22:10, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)
See Talk:Joseph Smith, Jr.#Propose we make a Mormonism WikiProject
Great edits, Storm Rider! Tom - Talk 05:47, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)
I'll second that. Good Job!! Bruce 06:37, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
User:206.158.2.80, you added some beliefs that are not common to all Latter Day Saints. You may wish to find a more appropriate article, such as Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Or perhaps we need to have (or do have) a means of separating the Latter Day Saint movement branches into two theological groups.
I think User:Visorstuff may help on this issue. Is there a place where we attempt to look at various classifications and groupings within the Latter Day Saint movement? It might be said that the term Mormonism (as I wrote recently in the thrid paragraph of Latter Day Saint) has become most descriptive of the LDS brand of LDS Restorationism, and that therefore it is more appropriate that this article neglect the CofC theology in favor of the more Non-trinitarian/radical/non-ecumenical/fundmentalist theology of the LDS Church. Thoughts? Tom - Talk 16:41, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
It does not matter if they disclaim it's truthfulness. What matters is if they adhere to its teachings. There are some within the Church, sadly, who do not believe the Book of Mormon to be true - rather they believe it is inspired, non-historical scripture, or that it contains good teachings. Some of these would say the Book of Mormon is the word of God, others may not. However, they adhere to its teachings and would thus be classified as adherents to Mormonism.
I agree that CoC are moving farther and farther away from "Mormonism," but until they completely turn away from the history, culture and teachings they are still a part of Mormonism. Please note I didn't say they were Mormons, but rather adherents to Mormonism. The term Mormon in its connotation is narrow enough now to refer to members of the LDS Church and its 20th century offshoots, not most of the pre-1900 offshoots. It is NPOV to say they adhere to Mormonism. But not to say they are Mormons. I am willing to stand by that unless convinced otherwise - feel free to ask your friend. - Visorstuff 20:24, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
If we are going to discuss theology, which I agree we should, let's stick to theology based on the standard works. It is not appropriate in this medium to delve into those doctrines taught in the journal of discourses; were it so, we would still be endorsing the Adam-God theory. I will attempt to make some changes in this order, but would request to know how others feel in this regard? Storm Rider 18:55, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I'm in complete agreement that the doctrines of the LDS Church should be represented by the Standard Works. I attempted to modify the anonymous edits that were to me offensive, without removing them completely. In fact, I personally believe that if we're going to represent the teachings of the LDS Church they should be the Articles of Faith, which were written to that end. Billlund 21:23, Apr 9, 2005 (UTC)
I read a poster the other day that said something to the effect of Mormons don't drink beverages with caffeine in them. Where is this noted in the Mormon Scriptures?
This is from the Doctrine and Covenants chapter 89 verses 4,5,7,9
. . . ."I have warned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation.
"That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good,"
" . . . Strong drinks are not for the belly," . . .
. . . "hot drinks are not for the body or belly."
The Doctrine and Covenatnts are part of our sacred scriptures with the New and Old Testament, the Book of Mormon and Pearl of Great Price.
David O. McKay the nineth president and prophet of the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints had said this:
"Stimulants are to the body what the lash is to the lagging horse-it causes a spurt forward but gives no permanent strength or natural nourishment. Frequent repetitions of the lash only make the horse more lazy; and the habitual use of strong drink, tobacco, tea, and coffee, only tends to make the body weaker and more dependent upon the stimulants to which it is addicted."
In 1952 David O. McKay visited the Queen of the Netherlands, at tea time he told her . . . "our people do not believe in drinking stimulants and we think tea is a stimulant."
The Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints does not believe in partaking of stimulants or intoxicants. What individules do are there own choises.
I myself am a Mormon and interpret the Word of Wisdom as such: Caffeine is ok, but iced tea, coffee, alcohol, and tea is not. The only exception to this is herbal teas. Please keep in mind these are only my personal beliefs. Yellowbuddy
I just have a question about something in the article. It talks about "embarrassing prophetic misteps." What is that talking about?
-- Parlod 21:58, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Great question. This statement was poorly worded. I believe the author meant some "Mormons well-aquainted" with opinions by church leaders that have been held up as prophetic pronouncements. In other words, there have been some things church leaders have said that have later been "proven" to be unfactual, unsupported, or later doctrinally denounced. These may include: the possiblity of life on the moon and mars, man not being able to travel to the moon, the adam-god theory and various theories about evolution, rain/water and the future of man, etc. - Visorstuff 22:37, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I agree that was poorly worded, and rather POVish. But I wonder if V's edit somewhat overcorrects: aren't there some revelations (characterised as such at the time) that have been amended by later revelation? Plural marriage, black people, revisions to the text of the BoM all spring to mind. Alai
- I also have another question. "It says "Smith compiled a theology that attempted to answer nearly all of the unresolved religious questions of his day." Is the word "compiled" being used saying that Smith created this theology based on his own study and understanding? I'm not saying it is, I just want to know if that's what the writer intended to say. I just want to make sure it stays NPOV. Sorry if it seems like a stupid question. :P -- Parlod 23:18, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I have no idea on that one. Tom, do you have any insight? - Visorstuff 00:21, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I think 'compiled' is OK (compiled /= authored), but I wonder about 'attempted'. Does that ascribe this as intent to Smith? Perhaps better to say that it "was believed" to address those issues, if what we're describing is the purported scope, etc, of the end product itself. Alai 01:04, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I agree with Alai with "compiled" and "attempted." And thanks, Visorstuff. -- Parlod 01:46, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I've made an edit to that general effect (#999!). Please feel free to edit away at my wording if it can be further improved (or is wandering in the wrong direction entirely). Alai 02:52, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Good edit. - Visorstuff 17:34, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Yeah, thanks Alai. -- Parlod 18:32, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The 'influenced' bit was niggling at me too; I think Storm Rider's edit takes care of that nicely. (Some discussion of whether he was indeed "influenced" in a mundane sense is probably appropriate, but not in this exact spot.) Alai 19:09, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I removed the following from the Theology section:
While the modern prophet is traditionally considered (for all practical purposes) infallible, critics of the faith claim there is a growing tendency towards discounting prophetic pronouncements as personal opinions or beliefs of those leaders. Defenders of Mormonism argue that church leaders have always asserted a separation between prophetic prouncements and personal opinion.
This basically is not true, members of the CJCLDS believe that prophetic pronouncements of a prophet are "true" or invallible, but they don't believe that the prophet is infallible - the only infallible person on earth has been Jesus Christ. This misrepresentation of the understanding that a prophet can be called of God and receive revelation (i.e. be the mouthpiece of god) but not be "perfect" should not be on wikipedia as "infallible". Trödel| talk 17:09, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
OK, rather than engaging in an on-again off-again battle regarding the Mormon Beliefs section, let's discuss where those beliefs are found. My specific concerns are listed below. I've not listed items where there is no concern. Billlund
Nature of God
Jesus Christ
Salvation
Afterlife
Scripture
Mormon faith versus other faiths
I added signature for the above. There is need to discuss the beliefs section. At the moment, I am wondering how many "Mormons" would agree with this statement of belief (I am seeing it as a sincere attempt at apologetic ecumenical harmony): We are saved by grace and do not earn the atonement. However, as Jesus is the Lord of our life we are responsible to live as He teaches us. That sounds like US Evangelical theologian/teacher R.C. Sproul, not typical Mormonism. Are we trying to describe Mormonism in all its glorious color or harmonize it to a bland color of gray? Tom Haws 17:28, Apr 29, 2005 (UTC)
This section is really a problem. My edit was no good, and Storm Rider doesn't really like his either. Why not the Articles of Faith? Too indescriptive of the color of Mormonism? Tom Haws 16:32, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
I think the main problem here is that poor wording can result in changing the meaning of what was originally intended. Does anyone here think that "Mormon Doctrine" by Bruce R. McConkie(a Mormon apostle) would be a good source? The Scurvy Eye 21:05, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Removed from article. I hope anon comes to discuss. Tom Haws 17:12, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)
Can you add it back with an explanation for unlearned folks like me? Tom Haws 06:54, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
This article is becoming some kind of a monster, and I think we need to come to a consensus about what this article should contain, considering how important and central the topic is. Obviously, the article should be some kind of concise overview, as there are numerous other more specific articles. The article should also be very general, to include all the diverse kinds of Mormonism. The article should also not be too redundant of other articles. Apart from that framework, I'm not sure what to do with the outline of material that has been recently added to the article. Any comments? COGDEN June 29, 2005 00:25 (UTC)
Recent edits have gone back to the anonymous "Some Critics" state or believe. Whoever introduced this language that presents these mysterious and unamed poeple who believes the LDS is sexist, homophobic, etc. should state who these people are. Without attribution the statements are of little value. The reader is left not knowing who has formerly come out against the chruch. Is some bloke in the backwoods or is it a actual organization. If it is not attributed, I will delete the language. Storm Rider 30 June 2005 02:55 (UTC)
I removed the following language today from the article:
I don't really see where this has a place in the article. I suspect that "some" outspoken critcis also believe that the whole church is not worth a sop buckets worth of muck, but I don't see how that has anything to do with the price of tea in China or in what the Church or its members continues to believe. If one feels that we can't do without such comments in the article, source/reference it so that readers will understand the value of such statements. Storm Rider 04:50, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Good edit. The Scurvy Eye 21:10, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Not to split hairs, but the link section includes a link to "[http://www.exmormon.org/] - A website for those questioning Mormonism.". However, doesn't this site more appropriately belong on The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints page, as it is for those who question The Church's teachings, not Mormonism in General. I don't see many Community of Christ or Strangite or Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints former adherents on Exmormon.org. Seems like the wrong page. Thoughts? - Visorstuff 1 July 2005 15:48 (UTC)
We have made a conscientious effort to define Mormonism as the that gospel/organization which came from Joseph Smith. I think the numerous links that refer strictly to the LDS side of things should be removed to the LDS site. However, for those with a limited understanding of the definition of Mormonism, such an action may appear to be too restrictive. Storm Rider 4 July 2005 03:55 (UTC)
You people have got it all backwards. The Latter Day Saint movement is the all-inclusive term for Joseph Smith Jr. followers in general. Modern Mormonism refers to Brigham Young/ Utah followers in particular. I myself am an RLDS member in a Restoration Branch - RLDS refers to Joseph Smith Jr. and Joseph Smith III/ Independence followers. The other groups not covered by those terms are still Latter Day Saints and may or may not be Mormons based on what they call themselves. -- NERD42 EMAIL TALK H2G2 UNCYC NEWS 01:03, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
I've removed teh following links - as they are not relevant to this particular page. This page is about Mormonism - not the LDS Church - big difference in teh bigger Latter Day Saint movement - that said, I'm moving the links to the following locations:
NOTE: Article has been moved to Joseph Smith, Jr. and Polygamy
Questions? Concerns? This is proper use of terminology. - Visorstuff 8 July 2005 15:20 (UTC)
I, COGDEN, also moved some links, as follows:
-- COGDEN July 8, 2005 23:20 (UTC)
I have removed the following links because they specifically relate to the LDS Church; as we have agreed Mormonism is much broader than that. If links are to be re-added to the site; please discuss why they belong and how they apply to Mormonism and not just the LDS church. Those links that are specific should be moved to the respective sites.
It seems like we have been moving in this direction and I agree with that direction. Storm Rider 04:17, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
Why is the Mormonism and Emma_Hale_Smith page disputed? Adding a disputed tag to the artilce, the disputor should tell on the talk page the reasons why. If no reason is given, the notice will be removed in 24 hours. Would love to address "factual" accuracies, but both pages are "factually" correct and are documented. Perhaps you were thinking of the NPOV tag? In either case, please explain. -Visorstuff 21:36, 14 July 2005 (UTC) I'll post this comment on User talk:Jobarts as well. - Visorstuff 21:35, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
Timothy, this article is centered on Mormonism and not the Book of Mormon. Having said that I still there there is value to your statement. Do you feel there is a difference between the various churches descended from the church founded by Joseph Smith? Further, given that the article has long since been divided into different subjects, in this instance rightly so given the importance of the subject matter, is there another way you feel this can be handled justly? For example, I think we should at least refer and link to the article at the bottom. Storm Rider 15:38, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
I removed the huge addition to the article today regarding Blacks and the Priesthood. The following is what is deleted:
This belongs in the article on the Blacks and Mormonism. I will attached the actual article later (I did not seek it out before making this edit.). What this article attempts to briefly explain or summarize is the general beliefs of Mormonism as a whole, i.e. all groups that have evolved from the religion started by Joseph Smith. Although this editor put in a great deal of work and it was edited a few times, it is such a huge add-on that it changes the purpose of the article. This might also be appropriate for the article on the LDS church, but most certainly it belongs on the Priesthood. Storm Rider 18:13, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
Given the subject matter of this article, I think that should be adequate. Storm Rider 15:46, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
Those doctrinal summations are modified to be palatable, not succinct and clear. Doesn't anyone here have the guts to just tell it like it is? -Anonymous
I think saying that is perfectly clear-anonymous
They may not be succinct, but they are accurate - across all Mormonism - not just LDS. How do you think the above statement needs to be qualified? Adherents to Mormonism believe that, and the various Mormonism denominations interpret it differently. LDS believe he is the only begotton Son in the flesh, whereas CoC believe that he is the bodily condesension of God the father, the strangites believe he was the only begotton son. Remember, this is not a LDS doctrine page, but a page outlining similarities of Mormonism doctrines. It's like saying the page on Christianity doesn't fully represent the Church of Christianity page, or the Catholics, or the Baptists, or the LDS Church. In order for us to address your concern, you will need to be more specific. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, and would like to address your concerns, but not sure I understand them all. Please expound. -
Visorstuff
17:57, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
In fact, let's look at the statement "Jesus Christ was the only begotten son of God the Father" within the LDS Church -
The doctrine of the Church is that Jesus was the only begotton Son of God in the flesh. Other Mormonism sects have differing beliefs than the LDS Church. Even you stated "This has historically been taken to mean something very different than the LDS meaning." I'd disagree - there are just less bounds on what it is limited to. I'd state that it is just as debated among other christian sects as it is between traditional Nicean Christianity and Mormonism.
So, back to your original question "Doesn't anyone here have the guts to just tell it like it is?" The answer is yes - and we did in the article - and you don't like it. But that is how it is. The doctrines laid forth are vague in teaching - in application and belief they become specific. Now if you want to get into the specifics about what the LDS Church believes (which is non-trinitarian, unlike some other Mormonism sects, such as the community of Christ which is trinitarian) that belongs on The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints page and article. Make sense? Are you getting Mormonism and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints confused becuase it is the largest sect in Mormonism? - Visorstuff 16:40, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Just as an aside, I find it interesting that an anonymous editor without the character to sign his own "name" has the temerity to assert that the article doesn't "tell it like it is" and that the true Mormon doctrine is being obfusacted. Exactly how does the statement that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God become unclear??? Some 325 years after the time of Christ the churches now known as orthodox came up with an incomprehensible creed to explain how they interpret that simple, clear statment. Then, all of a sudden, the son is the father!?!? Oh yeah, let's bend over backwards and become totally illogical so that Christians can somehow maintain the clarion call of One God. "Orthodox" Christianity has turned that simple statement, Jesus is the only begotten Son of God into complete mush and now you want to blame Mormons for just sticking to the simple meaning of the words. Storm Rider 19:51, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
- Visorstuff 18:42, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
I must correct all of you people and i decided here was the best place, you say there are many churches of "mormonism" while most of these have different belief's from LDS, this is because all others are false and LDS is the only true church that believes in the prophet joseph smith, and i think that would classify them as "mormon" i know all this be cause i am LDS and what you will learn from most other christian churches about us "mormons" is not true, when you want to learn about a religion or a people then don't go to the people who despise them, go to the people you want to learn about.-LDS saint
71.106.80.135, my apologies for the wholesale revert - however, the vast majority of your edits were specific to the LDS Church - not the broader Mormonism movement or the Latter Day Saint movement (as compared to the hyphenated Latter-day Saint, who is an LDS church member). Please note the difference of sects and groups who do not subscribe to these beliefs who still claim they are Mormons or adhere to Mormonism culture and teachings and history. Latter-day Saint doctrines belong at Latter-day Saint - Visorstuff 18:58, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the only "mormon" church, I know this because I am "mormon" A.K.A. LDS and I have to correct you, "mormons" believe that the god head is three different beings, two of which are in the form of a man, but do not have bodies, one has to be a human on earth to have a body, and FLDS and Community of Christ are not "mormon" nomatter what they claim.- LDS saint
I just reverted the deleted sentence, "; although Smith himself married several women who were already wedded to other men." The source is ISBN 156085085X, In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith.
http://www.signaturebooks.com/reviews/insacred.htm
The book isn't online, but this is from the publisher: "Finally, Compton is to be commended for candidly trying to come to terms with some of the most knotty and controversial aspects of early Mormon polygamy, including the evidence that Joseph Smith took as plural wives in a full physical sense women who were already married to other men. Compton argues, for example, that "fully one-third of his [Joseph Smith's] plural wives, eleven of them, were married civilly to other men when he married them. ... Polyandry might be easier to understand if one viewed these marriages to Smith as a sort of de facto divorce with the first husband. However, none of these women divorced their 'first husbands' while Smith was alive and all of them continued to live with their civil spouses while married to Smith" (15-16). Compton further points out that "there is evidence that he did have [sexual] relations with at least some of these women, including one polyandrous wife, Sylvia Sessions Lyon, who bore the only polygamous offspring of Smith for whom we have affidavit evidence"
-- Quasipalm 22:22, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
The Mormonism article contains a section on the "Nature of God" and a section on "Jesus." Shouldn't there also be a section on God the Father and Holy Spirit in order to preserve parallelism?
Also, if the article is going to specifically refer to Mormon theology there should be a certain amount of clarification as to what most "mormons" believe. Perhaps there should be a breakdown of the various denominations within the religion with accompanying numerical statistics. For example, when one refers to "Christianity" he draws upon his own presupposition of a Christian within his culture. One cannot say that Christianity cannot be accurately described because there are "too many denominations" and widespread beliefs such as Protestant (in general), Roman Catholic, and Greek Orthodox. On the contrary, each of the largest Christian denominations should be accurately described in detail. However, this article seems to take the position that every mormon denomination can be described accurately through a quick breakdown of what is considered "mormon" theology. I think this is where most of the confusion is coming from and results in a watered down version of their faith.
Perhaps the "theology" section should be allowed to rest within each individual mormon denomination page so that there would be less disagreement concerning exactly what each denomination believes. If this were to occur, the current Mormonism page could be better used to describe the history of the movement and the encompassing vocabulary of the term rather than messily describing what mormons generally tend to believe. Even the Christianity page doesn't go into as much detail concerning "beliefs" as this article tries to do. I think the theology/beliefs section has become entirely too specific and has therefore disregarded describing "general beliefs" and has rather begun to delve into mormon theology which is obviously going to be controversial when listed on the main page.
Tarentinos 18:15, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
"those who died without the opportunity to accept the restored Gospel in life will be taught by those who did accept the gospel in life". I suppose it means the mormons will teach the non-mormons? Before this line, nothing is said about the restored Gospel. The same wording should be used throughout the article or at least new words should be explained. Piet 09:21, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Moved off-topic post and reply to the anon user's talk page also added my response. Trödel talk 19:40, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
From your edit summery: "Refering to a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints as a mormon is not offensive and is in fact a term which the LDS church uses to refer to its members. See also mormon.org"
The bit that you clipped out states that some other than the church of jesus christ of latter-day saints may find it offensive, so your reasoning in removing this bit is flawed.
See also Moved Mormonism articles in error on this talk page for further discussion about mormons finding the term 'mormonism' offensive.
I'd suggest that, rather than us two keeping on reverting the passage, we leave it alone and allow others to comment here and reach a consensus. -- DakAD 02:04, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Very true - I am aware of the official suggested wording for referring to the church in the media. You'll notice that the church and the AP style guide discourage the use of the term Mormon fundamentalist, although in an academic forum, it will be used. Rather than being "fine" it is considered "acceptable" - just as in some countries, Negro is still an acceptable term - but in the states it is not. Mormon to me still carries some connotation. I am a Latter-day Saint.
Having authored a number of these articles and been involved in the standardization of the nomenclature of Latter Day Saint movement terminology on wikipedia, I am well aware of the distinctions between mormons and Latter-day Saints. That said, I grew up in a time where mormon was either perjorative or celebratory - again, much like the word nigger. It was fine for us to call ourselved Mormon, but when someone else did, we wanted to be known as latter day saints. You'll find the same feeling in american black culture. Because Mormon is a culture as well as a religious movement, and in some cases an ethnicity, we have to be careful about labeling folks. Just my two cents. - Visorstuff 05:13, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
The external link section I removed consisted entirely of links relating to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which is too narrowly focused for this more broadly-reaching article. For more, scroll up and check on Visorstuff's reasoning for removing similar links about 8 months back. Tijuana Brass 00:10, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and we do not mind being called mormons. But we do not refer to our religion as Mormonism. We do not have sects, we have wards, branches, and stakes. Our book, The Book of Mormon, is Another Testemant of Jesus Christ, just to let you know, because a lot of people get mixed up with that. We have a Bishop and a Prophet. we are christians. check out the links below and you will find some more info. on us. we also have other standards than other religions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mormongirl262 ( talk • contribs) 23:28, 21 March 2006
(following the above were a number of links to pages branching from [www.mormon.org], which I've removed for brevity... check the page history if you're interested) Tijuana Brass 00:54, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
I have deleted the following, which I don't think is LDS doctrine: or those who have received a spiritual witness that Jesus is the Christ but later rejected it. (becoming Sons of perdition). The Jade Knight 17:10, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
This article is horribly written. Even though I've read it, I haven't the faintest idea what Mormons believe. This article is written for people who have an understanding of the major themes of Christianity and speaks only to people with that knowledge. Who is Jesus? What is the relationship between believers and their deity? How did the Book of Mormon come about? What information does it contain? The bullet point list of typical doctrines just doesn't make any sense.. it refers to other Christian concepts to explain Mormonism and in doing so fails to communicate any whole understanding of Mormonism itself. Beyond that inadequate description, the article focuses on the politics of Mormonism. I don't care about the detractors of Mormonism except as a side-bar - the most important issue is the religion itself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.71.85.28 ( talk • contribs)
cheers! 141.20.121.7 09:33, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
We need to be careful about Mormonism and polygamy. Not all groups under the Mormonism umbrella accept or support polygamy within Mormon history. THe LDS church and its sects have been or are polygamists, but the same can not be said for other groups. The article must address Mormonism as a whole and then refer to other links that precisely address the issue and the right groups. Storm Rider (talk) 01:59, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Wouldn't it be more fair to put in the Criticism of Mormonism section that a lot of what is attributed to the mainstream church (by that, I mean the church led by Gordon B. Hinkley), actually happens in other sects? See FLDS, for example (not to pick on anybody, but there is already an article on the FLDS on wiki. Cheers! Greenw47 20:41, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
So, I am directed to get concensus here by posting here first I am told. Giving that a go!
I see this statement as ridiculous:
As a theology, Mormonism as a whole includes a highly diverse and eclectic cluster of religious beliefs. There is much in common with the Campbellite, Restorationist, and Universalist beliefs prevalent in the area where Joseph Smith was raised and where he began his ministry.
Seems dumb to me. How is Mormonism particularly more highly diverse than Catholicism or Animisim or any other reasonably important religion? Are most religions not eclectic? There is "much in common"? What is "much"? How is it measured? Is there also much in common with religions that teach not to steal, kill or desicrate the holy? Or is there not much? This is simply a nonsensical throw away statement that could be randomly applied to many religions. A waste of space.
Perhaps the author meant to say something like: Mormonism appears to be invented out of the mind of Joseph Smith and the circumstances in which he grew up. (That may also not be different from other religions, but at least it is concise) If that is what is meant, why not just say that instead of this obscure nonsense above?
Comments and responses are encouraged. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.178.145.150 ( talk • contribs)
Thanks for the reply. Evidently we are not reading the words the same way... so that makes a difference. I read the first sentence as being the Main Thought of the Paragraph while the rest of the Paragraph lent supporting ideas. I see nothing in the rest of the paragraph referring to the concept of multiple Mormon Denominations or sects but rather a comparision with other types of religious beliefs. In that context, I do not see anything about the Mormon thinking that is more diverse than the other religions -- generically. Furthermore, the comment that it has much in common with a few religions... is just lame. What constitutes "much"? and how is it "Much" more than with other religions? This is OPINION not fact and it is not universally shared, it has no objective standard for measurement. It does not belong in an encyclopedia. And this is supposed to be an encyclopedia, right?
So... again, straight shooting would be best. If what is meant is "Mormonism comprises a number of sects and denominations"., that is what should be said and it should start a different paragraph. It is a separate thought. Of course the problem with the next sentence remains.... it is ambiguous and just thrown out there, without any justification. The next thought is the same regarding how Mormons thought it answered all the questions. An unsupported assertion. Seems I remember Brigham Young said something sort of LIKE that... but it was to the effect that if something true was discovered by anyone ... Mormons would believe it. If that is the idea behind "answering all questions" its a bit of a stretch.
I have read the guidelines about Neutrality several times now. It seems like a golden ideal that is held aloft like sipping ambrosia from a golden challace on Olympus but meanwhile in the real world its all muddy water. So many articles/editors defy that convention -- and do so in the name of neutrality. Everyone chants NPOV. Everyone pushes a POV. A game. Pathological. Perhaps unavoidable. We are human.
Incidentally, I own every Tijuana Brass album every done through 1980.
64.178.145.150 04:48, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I am still looking for a response. This passage under discussion appears to be essentially meaningless drivel. It should be deleted.
64.178.145.150
02:39, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Regarding polygamism with early mormons, Joseph Smith and his first group of 12 mens were using it all the time but hidding it from their wifes... Joseph Smith was married to more than 20 womens, without the knowledge of his wife, and problems occured when this first group around him wished to make this polygamism as an official rule of their sect.
It is also very well known that previously to Smiths writings about the supposed contain of its golden books, he was contacted by various members of masonics loges, and many of this church rituals, both sacred and profane, are directly taken from classical freemasonry and masonic orders'rituals. Many of the believes enumerated in the mormons books are also directly taken from those traditions, therefor the mormons books looks more, for a religions and myhtologies and esoterisms specialist point of view, like an amalguame or milk shake of several religious and sectars theories, well known within other religious groups, than a religion in itself. Nothing in the mormon books is original, all is taken from somewhere else, often with quiet a unimaginativ mind.
And thats the way the story goes.
that was for the personal, for all the facts listed above, I just wanted to state those things in a very clear way, giving a more balanced picture of the reality of this cult. Mormons can be very nice and helpfull people, nothing wrong about them nor that, but I am speaking here about the pendant and base of this pseudo religious cult, and being from Mircea Eliades classical school of myth and religious study, I can clearly see what is and what isn't from which and which religion or previous sect, or myth, as well as distinguish all borrowed elements from other cults.
I will also very much like to see on this discussion page as well as INSIDE the article, some writtings and facts who are not corresponding to the officialy aprouved official version of the church....
Kind Regards, Sophie, -- 213.237.21.242 16:42, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
For your knowledge I have used wikipedia for more than a year and know very well how it function.
By controversial I mean information non aprouved by presidents of the church.
Sophie -- 213.237.21.242 17:47, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
As you are a mormon too, your own contribution here is a statement for what I say, and I do not wish to comment anymore of those meaningsless remarks made by mormons adepts as they all summon up to the same.
This is an encyclopedia not an LSD meeting board nor a forum for beligerents view points.
Clean your front door instead to spit at your neighbourgs face. It will do some good for both.
-- 213.237.21.242 20:20, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
There is nothing that I stated above who is to be found in any of the articles.
There is nothing that I have stated who are second hands or stuff I have read somewhere, but all together things I was told at first hand by priest of the church, and by sisters of the church, missionaries, and members teaching at sunday schools, and priesthood teachings.
For what crimes?
Have nice sacrements tommorrow, and for those in Utah, hils Mr and Mrs Browns for me.
Peirani -- 213.237.21.242 21:30, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
After all your previously attacks nothing will surprised me.
Here is a very clear exemple of what I am warning you not to do so systematically: judge others on the basis of what you have been told and are well brain washed to judge as, but from what you can actually see and hear that those others are trying to tell you. I have absolutly nowhere in my contributions used the words hidden, nor secret, nor temple ordinances, but you have the audacity to present those words as being directly taken from my own text, so blinded you are of your own certitudes and prejudices! I found incredible that you couldnt see it on your own! I have extremely clearly stated, many times, and on several occasions and places, and repeated myself to death on each of my answer to your attacks, that the teaching I refer to, are USUAL TEACHING FOUNDING PLACE AT CHURCH ON SUNDAY MORNING.
Thanks. And hear yourself staging your speach, with "secrecy" and by "long been allegated Anti-mormons".. bouh! those bad anti mormons, have you been so brain washed and have you been assigned for so long to pursue the bad wiches that you can't actually see what is in front of your eyes?
This is the teaching held by missionaries, as well as teachers inside the church. I had very hot discussions with them about the subject, so believe me, I am not dreaming, and it isnt something who was say accidentally or that I had misunderstood. It is something who was with to retrieve me from the church as I couldn't agree to one more of those "changes to the original doctrine". I was vey irritated by those things, and founded impossible to trust anything who was sayed, as it was subject to changement and different interpretations all the time. Once, I just stand up and went away.
How could none of the baptised christian transmit their gift unless they were not really baptised? Thats the theory I have heard.
And you ask for prooves and books, go found it yourself when you are so keen at criticising others peoples research, why should you reap their fruits?! They are named after priest in the old testament, and if you knew something about hebrews history and about their religion you will also knew that those names become the denomination for specific degree of priesthood, and area of occupations, with their own specific teachings, and that they have the same name as in the mormon church as those models were borrowed to the hebraic priesthood system! Cant you think on your feet?
The heavenly mother is teached about and they say to have very little informations about her, and that she is the wife of God. You seems to deny it all so I strongly recommend you that you ask about it to other priests in your church and in your community, and eventually to the president of the church you are under, who could transmit your request to one of the apostle and have it all sorted out, confirmed or infirmed, instead of throwing stones at my face, like an idiot who can't accept what he wasnt told by his closest. It is childish and very unproductiv.
And concerning the baptism of the death, well, I heard clearly being stated that not all will be so, and that nevertheless it isnt the same as being an active member inside the church, nor as being a direct descendant of a pioneer, and that special rules apply there. What you are stating sounds more like missionary teaching at the first months of enrolment, than anything I heard thereafter. You might be against all of it, and so was I, but it doesnt change the FACT that it is happening and that those teachings are founding place, even today, and that they are professed by very well preapared teacher, or so should one believe, specially the missionary and specialy those coming from Utha, who are priest, and have officialy been accorded the assignement to teach, and retreated couples from Utha teaching here as missionaries should also be people to be trusted in their knowledge of the church and its teachings, as well as in mix class, where men and womens are teached, from a certain age, and having a certain level in their knowledge of the scriptures, where special subjects are being teached about and discussed, and where this subject about hell was teached about and I was well surprised to hear something very paradoxal to what I first thought it was about.
Sophie -- 213.237.21.242 05:17, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
I am not going to comment on Sophie's usage of English. I speak a foreign language well enough, and English is one of the most difficult to learn (as a non-native speaker). Some editors who otherwise do good work also have trouble with English grammar and spelling. I'm also not addressing the doctrinal mistakes in what Sophie has said; on Wikipedia, if challenged, it is up to the editors to provide citations for their information. Nor am I going to directly address Sophie's ignorance of the Wikipedia:Neutral point of view policy. I am dealing with Sophie's own "What I am stating here, far from being a personal opinion, are actual facts" with Sophie's own words, wikipedia records, common knowledge, and (for #6) personal opinion (mine is as good as Sophie's).
Quoting from Sophie:
And some advice to Sophie which comes from Sophie:
On the other hand, we may all just be feeding a troll. [Hint: If real, Sophie will understand his own words. If a troll, this soliloquy will continue.] Val42 06:40, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
So if I take the name "anonymous" as a pseudo, I will be as hiding and as showing as you are, because at the end, in both case it is a pseudonym with nothing to do with the person real name and identity.
WIKI is oppression and extinction of the freedom of expression, it is so corrupt that not one admi found it disturbing nor strange to banish or revert a user edit to impose his own point of view, on the sacro sankt name of wikis neutrality and equality!
English, danish, french, german, norvegian, swedish, occitan, latin, greek, and geek!
The brain cannot function with 2 types of logical sets and certainly not with one logic set applying to both logical and illogical stuff.
Jolly Jumper and his asperge -- 213.237.21.242 18:00, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
The fact that Sophie didn't even understand his own words (repeated back to him) means that he's not listening (even to himself) or that he is a troll. Either way, it is in the interests of enlightenment to have all of his text available for perusal by those in doubt. So I have restored his words of personal attack against me. I don't mind his words because they are not true, except any allegations that I am a follower of Jesus Christ. Val42 03:14, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
I've twice posted an external link to www.allaboutmormons.com, a site with facts about Mormonism that seems relevant to this site. It has twice been deleted as "spam." Just wanted to better understand what you guys consider "spam," seeing as how the site is well researched.
Thanks.
Someone keeps inserting a section regarding an alleged false prophecy by Joseph Smith and others keep reverting it. Is there something we can do to end this childish behavior?
To the writer of the information -- you have every right to include pertinent, documented information. I don't think, however, that this is the correct Wikipedia article for the information you present. Can you discuss this with us to find a more appropriate location? andersonpd 19:31, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Looking for participants in the the discussion of List of religions once classed as cults cairoi 14:20, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Not meaning to step on toes here... If this page need return to a redirect to Mormon, so be it -- I notice the same has been done for Catholic/Catholicism and Protestant/Protestantism. I felt there was an important difference, but perhaps Wiki policy/practice dictates that the above information should be merged in under "Mormon" and this page reverted. LennyG
There are so many articles, now, with the word "Mormonism" in their title (see, e.g., Restoration (Mormonism), Priesthood (Mormonism), etc.), that we have to have an actual Mormonism article! This usage would be in conformance with the widespread usage of the word "Mormonism" in such publications as the oft-cited Encyclopedia of Mormonism. It would also put this article in conformance with Wikipedia standards, which prefer such titles as Catholicism, Protestantism, and Methodism to "Catholic", "Protestant", and "Methodist". COGDEN 20:50, 1 Dec 2003 (UTC)
This article is nearly verbatim identical to Latter Day Saint movement. Is that article needed at all? Is there a real difference between the two terms? If there is, should we not keep things clean and reduce the redundancy? Who realy uses that term? Hawstom 20:59, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I agree with Hawstom's comments. There is no need for Latter Day Saint movement...all of the material on that article should be merged with this article on Mormonism. B 22:42, Feb 4, 2004 (UTC)
Do we have to go through Votes For Deletion? I've never done that before. I suggest a Redirection from that page to Mormonism. Or a short explanation of the term itself along with a pointer that what it really means is Mormonism Hawstom 02:05, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)
As a Latter-day Saint myself, this is my perspective: Mormonism should be used to describe the theology and culture of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints only. On the other hand, the Latter Day Saint movement, as the [User:COGDEN|above Wikipedian]] pointed out, is more of historical value. In being so, the Latter Day Saint movement encapsulates all churches that accept the teachings of Joseph Smith and/or take the Book of Mormon as scripture. To illustrate, members of the Community of Christ absolutely hate being called "Mormons," but accept the term Latter Day Saint (note punctuation), even though they accept the Book of Mormon as scripture. By this, we can see that Mormonism is essentially limited to the practices of one church, whereas the Latter Day Saint movement is the common history of several churches. One word of caution, though: the Community of Christ seems to be a bit selective about it's history. For example, they use an older edition of the Doctrine and Covenants and question the fact that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy (sections pertaining to polygamy, regard for race in priesthood, etc. were added later in JS's life). Bccomm 17:56, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)
True. We need to clarify these issues. I am afraid we may not be accurately presenting all the points of views. I know of no FLDS editors or CofC editors, though I have good contacts who could provide guidance for both. One example of the need to clarify is the disputed between Mormonism and Christianity. Which branches are parties to this conflict? All in the same way? Tom 20:17, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Umm, Is this the right page to list all the sub-sects of Mormonism? This gets confusing to me, and the entropy never ends. If it is, why should we give Strangites honorable mention, but not FLDS. Isn't FLDS at 20,000 bigger? Hawstom 02:34, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I removed the Mormon Israelites. I am going to try to find a better home for it. Excellent contribution. Tom (hawstom) 21:51, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I changed "Christian" to "Non-Mormon" to make it more inclusive. ChessPlayer 22:35, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Chess, I think that it is only Christians who gag at classifying Mormonism as a branch of Christianity. Non-Christians pretty much agree M is a branch of C. I think saying some C reject M as a C branch gives the more accurate understanding. Would you consider reverting? Tom (hawstom) 22:34, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
If anyone who claims to be a branch of Christianity is a branch of Christianity, then Latter Day Saints are a branch of Christianity. If anyone who claims to be a follower of Christ is a Christian, then any Latter Day Saints who claim to follow Christ are Christians. The question here is not whether Latter Day Saints are Christians, but "What is a Christian?" and who is qualified to answer that question. Too bad Christ Himself is currently unavailible for comment. -- NERD42 EMAIL TALK H2G2 UNCYC NEWS 01:07, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
I find it a little disturbing watching people decide that someone who may be ignorant of the differences that do exist between Christian and Mormon doctrine is still qualified to categorize Mormonism as a part of Christianity. Going by some of the logic I see at work here, you could classify an atheist as a christian if enough people agree that this is a reasonable proposition. But is objective truth established by a consensus of public opinion ? Or by facts ? It really isn't that hard to weigh Mormon doctrine against the bible, with careful consideration given to the major doctrines that are accepted by all Christians, and see that there are serious differences... just my two cents. 58.106.231.44 21:42, 25 February, 2006 (UTC)
I think President Gordon Hinckley said something to the effect of whoever controls the definition of christian therefore decides who is in and who is out- but we are too busy for these kind of arguments- we believe in Jesus Christ as we understand him and that is that. Isaac Crumm 10:14, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
I pulled the list page out of the "see also" and made it explicit in the article that this listing exists. The listing is the main point of this page, or should be. ChessPlayer 20:51, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)
copied from User_talk:Gilgamesh 02:02, 5 July 2004 (UTC):
Moving Mormonism and Mormonism and Judaism were mistakes and you need to change them back. Next time please propose and discuss making such drastic changes in the talk pages before doing so. For example, please review Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Mormonism) and the Church's media guide here stating: "The term “Mormonism” is acceptable in describing the combination of doctrine [i.e. "theology"], culture and lifestyle unique to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." — B| Talk 17:59, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Well, Dan, I think that about does it. I will remove the NPOV dispute after adding a note that to some the term Mormonism is very offensive. Tom 02:36, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Most people recognize offhand the term "Mormon" or "Mormonism" than than "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints". I think that's the best arguement for keeping the term. The Scurvy Eye 20:45, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
I liked your October 8 expansion, COGDEN, it made is clear for me that the CJCLDS church that I had been fully equating with Mormonism is actually just a subset sect of it. Could we slso throw in a few references to some example entities or sects other than the CJCLDS church that are also within Mormonism? -- Gary D 19:40, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)
"While Mormonism as a whole covers a broad range of beliefs, the belief in prophecy tends to limit the scope of theology available to zealous followers within each individual sect." I'd like to see you explain this a little better, COGDEN. Even I had a really hard time seeing through to what it really meant, and I only Think I understand. Tom - Talk 22:10, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)
See Talk:Joseph Smith, Jr.#Propose we make a Mormonism WikiProject
Great edits, Storm Rider! Tom - Talk 05:47, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)
I'll second that. Good Job!! Bruce 06:37, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
User:206.158.2.80, you added some beliefs that are not common to all Latter Day Saints. You may wish to find a more appropriate article, such as Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Or perhaps we need to have (or do have) a means of separating the Latter Day Saint movement branches into two theological groups.
I think User:Visorstuff may help on this issue. Is there a place where we attempt to look at various classifications and groupings within the Latter Day Saint movement? It might be said that the term Mormonism (as I wrote recently in the thrid paragraph of Latter Day Saint) has become most descriptive of the LDS brand of LDS Restorationism, and that therefore it is more appropriate that this article neglect the CofC theology in favor of the more Non-trinitarian/radical/non-ecumenical/fundmentalist theology of the LDS Church. Thoughts? Tom - Talk 16:41, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
It does not matter if they disclaim it's truthfulness. What matters is if they adhere to its teachings. There are some within the Church, sadly, who do not believe the Book of Mormon to be true - rather they believe it is inspired, non-historical scripture, or that it contains good teachings. Some of these would say the Book of Mormon is the word of God, others may not. However, they adhere to its teachings and would thus be classified as adherents to Mormonism.
I agree that CoC are moving farther and farther away from "Mormonism," but until they completely turn away from the history, culture and teachings they are still a part of Mormonism. Please note I didn't say they were Mormons, but rather adherents to Mormonism. The term Mormon in its connotation is narrow enough now to refer to members of the LDS Church and its 20th century offshoots, not most of the pre-1900 offshoots. It is NPOV to say they adhere to Mormonism. But not to say they are Mormons. I am willing to stand by that unless convinced otherwise - feel free to ask your friend. - Visorstuff 20:24, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
If we are going to discuss theology, which I agree we should, let's stick to theology based on the standard works. It is not appropriate in this medium to delve into those doctrines taught in the journal of discourses; were it so, we would still be endorsing the Adam-God theory. I will attempt to make some changes in this order, but would request to know how others feel in this regard? Storm Rider 18:55, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I'm in complete agreement that the doctrines of the LDS Church should be represented by the Standard Works. I attempted to modify the anonymous edits that were to me offensive, without removing them completely. In fact, I personally believe that if we're going to represent the teachings of the LDS Church they should be the Articles of Faith, which were written to that end. Billlund 21:23, Apr 9, 2005 (UTC)
I read a poster the other day that said something to the effect of Mormons don't drink beverages with caffeine in them. Where is this noted in the Mormon Scriptures?
This is from the Doctrine and Covenants chapter 89 verses 4,5,7,9
. . . ."I have warned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation.
"That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good,"
" . . . Strong drinks are not for the belly," . . .
. . . "hot drinks are not for the body or belly."
The Doctrine and Covenatnts are part of our sacred scriptures with the New and Old Testament, the Book of Mormon and Pearl of Great Price.
David O. McKay the nineth president and prophet of the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints had said this:
"Stimulants are to the body what the lash is to the lagging horse-it causes a spurt forward but gives no permanent strength or natural nourishment. Frequent repetitions of the lash only make the horse more lazy; and the habitual use of strong drink, tobacco, tea, and coffee, only tends to make the body weaker and more dependent upon the stimulants to which it is addicted."
In 1952 David O. McKay visited the Queen of the Netherlands, at tea time he told her . . . "our people do not believe in drinking stimulants and we think tea is a stimulant."
The Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints does not believe in partaking of stimulants or intoxicants. What individules do are there own choises.
I myself am a Mormon and interpret the Word of Wisdom as such: Caffeine is ok, but iced tea, coffee, alcohol, and tea is not. The only exception to this is herbal teas. Please keep in mind these are only my personal beliefs. Yellowbuddy
I just have a question about something in the article. It talks about "embarrassing prophetic misteps." What is that talking about?
-- Parlod 21:58, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Great question. This statement was poorly worded. I believe the author meant some "Mormons well-aquainted" with opinions by church leaders that have been held up as prophetic pronouncements. In other words, there have been some things church leaders have said that have later been "proven" to be unfactual, unsupported, or later doctrinally denounced. These may include: the possiblity of life on the moon and mars, man not being able to travel to the moon, the adam-god theory and various theories about evolution, rain/water and the future of man, etc. - Visorstuff 22:37, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I agree that was poorly worded, and rather POVish. But I wonder if V's edit somewhat overcorrects: aren't there some revelations (characterised as such at the time) that have been amended by later revelation? Plural marriage, black people, revisions to the text of the BoM all spring to mind. Alai
- I also have another question. "It says "Smith compiled a theology that attempted to answer nearly all of the unresolved religious questions of his day." Is the word "compiled" being used saying that Smith created this theology based on his own study and understanding? I'm not saying it is, I just want to know if that's what the writer intended to say. I just want to make sure it stays NPOV. Sorry if it seems like a stupid question. :P -- Parlod 23:18, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I have no idea on that one. Tom, do you have any insight? - Visorstuff 00:21, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I think 'compiled' is OK (compiled /= authored), but I wonder about 'attempted'. Does that ascribe this as intent to Smith? Perhaps better to say that it "was believed" to address those issues, if what we're describing is the purported scope, etc, of the end product itself. Alai 01:04, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I agree with Alai with "compiled" and "attempted." And thanks, Visorstuff. -- Parlod 01:46, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I've made an edit to that general effect (#999!). Please feel free to edit away at my wording if it can be further improved (or is wandering in the wrong direction entirely). Alai 02:52, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Good edit. - Visorstuff 17:34, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Yeah, thanks Alai. -- Parlod 18:32, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The 'influenced' bit was niggling at me too; I think Storm Rider's edit takes care of that nicely. (Some discussion of whether he was indeed "influenced" in a mundane sense is probably appropriate, but not in this exact spot.) Alai 19:09, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I removed the following from the Theology section:
While the modern prophet is traditionally considered (for all practical purposes) infallible, critics of the faith claim there is a growing tendency towards discounting prophetic pronouncements as personal opinions or beliefs of those leaders. Defenders of Mormonism argue that church leaders have always asserted a separation between prophetic prouncements and personal opinion.
This basically is not true, members of the CJCLDS believe that prophetic pronouncements of a prophet are "true" or invallible, but they don't believe that the prophet is infallible - the only infallible person on earth has been Jesus Christ. This misrepresentation of the understanding that a prophet can be called of God and receive revelation (i.e. be the mouthpiece of god) but not be "perfect" should not be on wikipedia as "infallible". Trödel| talk 17:09, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
OK, rather than engaging in an on-again off-again battle regarding the Mormon Beliefs section, let's discuss where those beliefs are found. My specific concerns are listed below. I've not listed items where there is no concern. Billlund
Nature of God
Jesus Christ
Salvation
Afterlife
Scripture
Mormon faith versus other faiths
I added signature for the above. There is need to discuss the beliefs section. At the moment, I am wondering how many "Mormons" would agree with this statement of belief (I am seeing it as a sincere attempt at apologetic ecumenical harmony): We are saved by grace and do not earn the atonement. However, as Jesus is the Lord of our life we are responsible to live as He teaches us. That sounds like US Evangelical theologian/teacher R.C. Sproul, not typical Mormonism. Are we trying to describe Mormonism in all its glorious color or harmonize it to a bland color of gray? Tom Haws 17:28, Apr 29, 2005 (UTC)
This section is really a problem. My edit was no good, and Storm Rider doesn't really like his either. Why not the Articles of Faith? Too indescriptive of the color of Mormonism? Tom Haws 16:32, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
I think the main problem here is that poor wording can result in changing the meaning of what was originally intended. Does anyone here think that "Mormon Doctrine" by Bruce R. McConkie(a Mormon apostle) would be a good source? The Scurvy Eye 21:05, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Removed from article. I hope anon comes to discuss. Tom Haws 17:12, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)
Can you add it back with an explanation for unlearned folks like me? Tom Haws 06:54, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
This article is becoming some kind of a monster, and I think we need to come to a consensus about what this article should contain, considering how important and central the topic is. Obviously, the article should be some kind of concise overview, as there are numerous other more specific articles. The article should also be very general, to include all the diverse kinds of Mormonism. The article should also not be too redundant of other articles. Apart from that framework, I'm not sure what to do with the outline of material that has been recently added to the article. Any comments? COGDEN June 29, 2005 00:25 (UTC)
Recent edits have gone back to the anonymous "Some Critics" state or believe. Whoever introduced this language that presents these mysterious and unamed poeple who believes the LDS is sexist, homophobic, etc. should state who these people are. Without attribution the statements are of little value. The reader is left not knowing who has formerly come out against the chruch. Is some bloke in the backwoods or is it a actual organization. If it is not attributed, I will delete the language. Storm Rider 30 June 2005 02:55 (UTC)
I removed the following language today from the article:
I don't really see where this has a place in the article. I suspect that "some" outspoken critcis also believe that the whole church is not worth a sop buckets worth of muck, but I don't see how that has anything to do with the price of tea in China or in what the Church or its members continues to believe. If one feels that we can't do without such comments in the article, source/reference it so that readers will understand the value of such statements. Storm Rider 04:50, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Good edit. The Scurvy Eye 21:10, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Not to split hairs, but the link section includes a link to "[http://www.exmormon.org/] - A website for those questioning Mormonism.". However, doesn't this site more appropriately belong on The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints page, as it is for those who question The Church's teachings, not Mormonism in General. I don't see many Community of Christ or Strangite or Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints former adherents on Exmormon.org. Seems like the wrong page. Thoughts? - Visorstuff 1 July 2005 15:48 (UTC)
We have made a conscientious effort to define Mormonism as the that gospel/organization which came from Joseph Smith. I think the numerous links that refer strictly to the LDS side of things should be removed to the LDS site. However, for those with a limited understanding of the definition of Mormonism, such an action may appear to be too restrictive. Storm Rider 4 July 2005 03:55 (UTC)
You people have got it all backwards. The Latter Day Saint movement is the all-inclusive term for Joseph Smith Jr. followers in general. Modern Mormonism refers to Brigham Young/ Utah followers in particular. I myself am an RLDS member in a Restoration Branch - RLDS refers to Joseph Smith Jr. and Joseph Smith III/ Independence followers. The other groups not covered by those terms are still Latter Day Saints and may or may not be Mormons based on what they call themselves. -- NERD42 EMAIL TALK H2G2 UNCYC NEWS 01:03, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
I've removed teh following links - as they are not relevant to this particular page. This page is about Mormonism - not the LDS Church - big difference in teh bigger Latter Day Saint movement - that said, I'm moving the links to the following locations:
NOTE: Article has been moved to Joseph Smith, Jr. and Polygamy
Questions? Concerns? This is proper use of terminology. - Visorstuff 8 July 2005 15:20 (UTC)
I, COGDEN, also moved some links, as follows:
-- COGDEN July 8, 2005 23:20 (UTC)
I have removed the following links because they specifically relate to the LDS Church; as we have agreed Mormonism is much broader than that. If links are to be re-added to the site; please discuss why they belong and how they apply to Mormonism and not just the LDS church. Those links that are specific should be moved to the respective sites.
It seems like we have been moving in this direction and I agree with that direction. Storm Rider 04:17, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
Why is the Mormonism and Emma_Hale_Smith page disputed? Adding a disputed tag to the artilce, the disputor should tell on the talk page the reasons why. If no reason is given, the notice will be removed in 24 hours. Would love to address "factual" accuracies, but both pages are "factually" correct and are documented. Perhaps you were thinking of the NPOV tag? In either case, please explain. -Visorstuff 21:36, 14 July 2005 (UTC) I'll post this comment on User talk:Jobarts as well. - Visorstuff 21:35, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
Timothy, this article is centered on Mormonism and not the Book of Mormon. Having said that I still there there is value to your statement. Do you feel there is a difference between the various churches descended from the church founded by Joseph Smith? Further, given that the article has long since been divided into different subjects, in this instance rightly so given the importance of the subject matter, is there another way you feel this can be handled justly? For example, I think we should at least refer and link to the article at the bottom. Storm Rider 15:38, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
I removed the huge addition to the article today regarding Blacks and the Priesthood. The following is what is deleted:
This belongs in the article on the Blacks and Mormonism. I will attached the actual article later (I did not seek it out before making this edit.). What this article attempts to briefly explain or summarize is the general beliefs of Mormonism as a whole, i.e. all groups that have evolved from the religion started by Joseph Smith. Although this editor put in a great deal of work and it was edited a few times, it is such a huge add-on that it changes the purpose of the article. This might also be appropriate for the article on the LDS church, but most certainly it belongs on the Priesthood. Storm Rider 18:13, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
Given the subject matter of this article, I think that should be adequate. Storm Rider 15:46, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
Those doctrinal summations are modified to be palatable, not succinct and clear. Doesn't anyone here have the guts to just tell it like it is? -Anonymous
I think saying that is perfectly clear-anonymous
They may not be succinct, but they are accurate - across all Mormonism - not just LDS. How do you think the above statement needs to be qualified? Adherents to Mormonism believe that, and the various Mormonism denominations interpret it differently. LDS believe he is the only begotton Son in the flesh, whereas CoC believe that he is the bodily condesension of God the father, the strangites believe he was the only begotton son. Remember, this is not a LDS doctrine page, but a page outlining similarities of Mormonism doctrines. It's like saying the page on Christianity doesn't fully represent the Church of Christianity page, or the Catholics, or the Baptists, or the LDS Church. In order for us to address your concern, you will need to be more specific. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, and would like to address your concerns, but not sure I understand them all. Please expound. -
Visorstuff
17:57, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
In fact, let's look at the statement "Jesus Christ was the only begotten son of God the Father" within the LDS Church -
The doctrine of the Church is that Jesus was the only begotton Son of God in the flesh. Other Mormonism sects have differing beliefs than the LDS Church. Even you stated "This has historically been taken to mean something very different than the LDS meaning." I'd disagree - there are just less bounds on what it is limited to. I'd state that it is just as debated among other christian sects as it is between traditional Nicean Christianity and Mormonism.
So, back to your original question "Doesn't anyone here have the guts to just tell it like it is?" The answer is yes - and we did in the article - and you don't like it. But that is how it is. The doctrines laid forth are vague in teaching - in application and belief they become specific. Now if you want to get into the specifics about what the LDS Church believes (which is non-trinitarian, unlike some other Mormonism sects, such as the community of Christ which is trinitarian) that belongs on The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints page and article. Make sense? Are you getting Mormonism and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints confused becuase it is the largest sect in Mormonism? - Visorstuff 16:40, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Just as an aside, I find it interesting that an anonymous editor without the character to sign his own "name" has the temerity to assert that the article doesn't "tell it like it is" and that the true Mormon doctrine is being obfusacted. Exactly how does the statement that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God become unclear??? Some 325 years after the time of Christ the churches now known as orthodox came up with an incomprehensible creed to explain how they interpret that simple, clear statment. Then, all of a sudden, the son is the father!?!? Oh yeah, let's bend over backwards and become totally illogical so that Christians can somehow maintain the clarion call of One God. "Orthodox" Christianity has turned that simple statement, Jesus is the only begotten Son of God into complete mush and now you want to blame Mormons for just sticking to the simple meaning of the words. Storm Rider 19:51, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
- Visorstuff 18:42, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
I must correct all of you people and i decided here was the best place, you say there are many churches of "mormonism" while most of these have different belief's from LDS, this is because all others are false and LDS is the only true church that believes in the prophet joseph smith, and i think that would classify them as "mormon" i know all this be cause i am LDS and what you will learn from most other christian churches about us "mormons" is not true, when you want to learn about a religion or a people then don't go to the people who despise them, go to the people you want to learn about.-LDS saint
71.106.80.135, my apologies for the wholesale revert - however, the vast majority of your edits were specific to the LDS Church - not the broader Mormonism movement or the Latter Day Saint movement (as compared to the hyphenated Latter-day Saint, who is an LDS church member). Please note the difference of sects and groups who do not subscribe to these beliefs who still claim they are Mormons or adhere to Mormonism culture and teachings and history. Latter-day Saint doctrines belong at Latter-day Saint - Visorstuff 18:58, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the only "mormon" church, I know this because I am "mormon" A.K.A. LDS and I have to correct you, "mormons" believe that the god head is three different beings, two of which are in the form of a man, but do not have bodies, one has to be a human on earth to have a body, and FLDS and Community of Christ are not "mormon" nomatter what they claim.- LDS saint
I just reverted the deleted sentence, "; although Smith himself married several women who were already wedded to other men." The source is ISBN 156085085X, In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith.
http://www.signaturebooks.com/reviews/insacred.htm
The book isn't online, but this is from the publisher: "Finally, Compton is to be commended for candidly trying to come to terms with some of the most knotty and controversial aspects of early Mormon polygamy, including the evidence that Joseph Smith took as plural wives in a full physical sense women who were already married to other men. Compton argues, for example, that "fully one-third of his [Joseph Smith's] plural wives, eleven of them, were married civilly to other men when he married them. ... Polyandry might be easier to understand if one viewed these marriages to Smith as a sort of de facto divorce with the first husband. However, none of these women divorced their 'first husbands' while Smith was alive and all of them continued to live with their civil spouses while married to Smith" (15-16). Compton further points out that "there is evidence that he did have [sexual] relations with at least some of these women, including one polyandrous wife, Sylvia Sessions Lyon, who bore the only polygamous offspring of Smith for whom we have affidavit evidence"
-- Quasipalm 22:22, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
The Mormonism article contains a section on the "Nature of God" and a section on "Jesus." Shouldn't there also be a section on God the Father and Holy Spirit in order to preserve parallelism?
Also, if the article is going to specifically refer to Mormon theology there should be a certain amount of clarification as to what most "mormons" believe. Perhaps there should be a breakdown of the various denominations within the religion with accompanying numerical statistics. For example, when one refers to "Christianity" he draws upon his own presupposition of a Christian within his culture. One cannot say that Christianity cannot be accurately described because there are "too many denominations" and widespread beliefs such as Protestant (in general), Roman Catholic, and Greek Orthodox. On the contrary, each of the largest Christian denominations should be accurately described in detail. However, this article seems to take the position that every mormon denomination can be described accurately through a quick breakdown of what is considered "mormon" theology. I think this is where most of the confusion is coming from and results in a watered down version of their faith.
Perhaps the "theology" section should be allowed to rest within each individual mormon denomination page so that there would be less disagreement concerning exactly what each denomination believes. If this were to occur, the current Mormonism page could be better used to describe the history of the movement and the encompassing vocabulary of the term rather than messily describing what mormons generally tend to believe. Even the Christianity page doesn't go into as much detail concerning "beliefs" as this article tries to do. I think the theology/beliefs section has become entirely too specific and has therefore disregarded describing "general beliefs" and has rather begun to delve into mormon theology which is obviously going to be controversial when listed on the main page.
Tarentinos 18:15, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
"those who died without the opportunity to accept the restored Gospel in life will be taught by those who did accept the gospel in life". I suppose it means the mormons will teach the non-mormons? Before this line, nothing is said about the restored Gospel. The same wording should be used throughout the article or at least new words should be explained. Piet 09:21, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Moved off-topic post and reply to the anon user's talk page also added my response. Trödel talk 19:40, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
From your edit summery: "Refering to a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints as a mormon is not offensive and is in fact a term which the LDS church uses to refer to its members. See also mormon.org"
The bit that you clipped out states that some other than the church of jesus christ of latter-day saints may find it offensive, so your reasoning in removing this bit is flawed.
See also Moved Mormonism articles in error on this talk page for further discussion about mormons finding the term 'mormonism' offensive.
I'd suggest that, rather than us two keeping on reverting the passage, we leave it alone and allow others to comment here and reach a consensus. -- DakAD 02:04, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Very true - I am aware of the official suggested wording for referring to the church in the media. You'll notice that the church and the AP style guide discourage the use of the term Mormon fundamentalist, although in an academic forum, it will be used. Rather than being "fine" it is considered "acceptable" - just as in some countries, Negro is still an acceptable term - but in the states it is not. Mormon to me still carries some connotation. I am a Latter-day Saint.
Having authored a number of these articles and been involved in the standardization of the nomenclature of Latter Day Saint movement terminology on wikipedia, I am well aware of the distinctions between mormons and Latter-day Saints. That said, I grew up in a time where mormon was either perjorative or celebratory - again, much like the word nigger. It was fine for us to call ourselved Mormon, but when someone else did, we wanted to be known as latter day saints. You'll find the same feeling in american black culture. Because Mormon is a culture as well as a religious movement, and in some cases an ethnicity, we have to be careful about labeling folks. Just my two cents. - Visorstuff 05:13, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
The external link section I removed consisted entirely of links relating to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which is too narrowly focused for this more broadly-reaching article. For more, scroll up and check on Visorstuff's reasoning for removing similar links about 8 months back. Tijuana Brass 00:10, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and we do not mind being called mormons. But we do not refer to our religion as Mormonism. We do not have sects, we have wards, branches, and stakes. Our book, The Book of Mormon, is Another Testemant of Jesus Christ, just to let you know, because a lot of people get mixed up with that. We have a Bishop and a Prophet. we are christians. check out the links below and you will find some more info. on us. we also have other standards than other religions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mormongirl262 ( talk • contribs) 23:28, 21 March 2006
(following the above were a number of links to pages branching from [www.mormon.org], which I've removed for brevity... check the page history if you're interested) Tijuana Brass 00:54, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
I have deleted the following, which I don't think is LDS doctrine: or those who have received a spiritual witness that Jesus is the Christ but later rejected it. (becoming Sons of perdition). The Jade Knight 17:10, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
This article is horribly written. Even though I've read it, I haven't the faintest idea what Mormons believe. This article is written for people who have an understanding of the major themes of Christianity and speaks only to people with that knowledge. Who is Jesus? What is the relationship between believers and their deity? How did the Book of Mormon come about? What information does it contain? The bullet point list of typical doctrines just doesn't make any sense.. it refers to other Christian concepts to explain Mormonism and in doing so fails to communicate any whole understanding of Mormonism itself. Beyond that inadequate description, the article focuses on the politics of Mormonism. I don't care about the detractors of Mormonism except as a side-bar - the most important issue is the religion itself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.71.85.28 ( talk • contribs)
cheers! 141.20.121.7 09:33, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
We need to be careful about Mormonism and polygamy. Not all groups under the Mormonism umbrella accept or support polygamy within Mormon history. THe LDS church and its sects have been or are polygamists, but the same can not be said for other groups. The article must address Mormonism as a whole and then refer to other links that precisely address the issue and the right groups. Storm Rider (talk) 01:59, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Wouldn't it be more fair to put in the Criticism of Mormonism section that a lot of what is attributed to the mainstream church (by that, I mean the church led by Gordon B. Hinkley), actually happens in other sects? See FLDS, for example (not to pick on anybody, but there is already an article on the FLDS on wiki. Cheers! Greenw47 20:41, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
So, I am directed to get concensus here by posting here first I am told. Giving that a go!
I see this statement as ridiculous:
As a theology, Mormonism as a whole includes a highly diverse and eclectic cluster of religious beliefs. There is much in common with the Campbellite, Restorationist, and Universalist beliefs prevalent in the area where Joseph Smith was raised and where he began his ministry.
Seems dumb to me. How is Mormonism particularly more highly diverse than Catholicism or Animisim or any other reasonably important religion? Are most religions not eclectic? There is "much in common"? What is "much"? How is it measured? Is there also much in common with religions that teach not to steal, kill or desicrate the holy? Or is there not much? This is simply a nonsensical throw away statement that could be randomly applied to many religions. A waste of space.
Perhaps the author meant to say something like: Mormonism appears to be invented out of the mind of Joseph Smith and the circumstances in which he grew up. (That may also not be different from other religions, but at least it is concise) If that is what is meant, why not just say that instead of this obscure nonsense above?
Comments and responses are encouraged. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.178.145.150 ( talk • contribs)
Thanks for the reply. Evidently we are not reading the words the same way... so that makes a difference. I read the first sentence as being the Main Thought of the Paragraph while the rest of the Paragraph lent supporting ideas. I see nothing in the rest of the paragraph referring to the concept of multiple Mormon Denominations or sects but rather a comparision with other types of religious beliefs. In that context, I do not see anything about the Mormon thinking that is more diverse than the other religions -- generically. Furthermore, the comment that it has much in common with a few religions... is just lame. What constitutes "much"? and how is it "Much" more than with other religions? This is OPINION not fact and it is not universally shared, it has no objective standard for measurement. It does not belong in an encyclopedia. And this is supposed to be an encyclopedia, right?
So... again, straight shooting would be best. If what is meant is "Mormonism comprises a number of sects and denominations"., that is what should be said and it should start a different paragraph. It is a separate thought. Of course the problem with the next sentence remains.... it is ambiguous and just thrown out there, without any justification. The next thought is the same regarding how Mormons thought it answered all the questions. An unsupported assertion. Seems I remember Brigham Young said something sort of LIKE that... but it was to the effect that if something true was discovered by anyone ... Mormons would believe it. If that is the idea behind "answering all questions" its a bit of a stretch.
I have read the guidelines about Neutrality several times now. It seems like a golden ideal that is held aloft like sipping ambrosia from a golden challace on Olympus but meanwhile in the real world its all muddy water. So many articles/editors defy that convention -- and do so in the name of neutrality. Everyone chants NPOV. Everyone pushes a POV. A game. Pathological. Perhaps unavoidable. We are human.
Incidentally, I own every Tijuana Brass album every done through 1980.
64.178.145.150 04:48, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I am still looking for a response. This passage under discussion appears to be essentially meaningless drivel. It should be deleted.
64.178.145.150
02:39, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Regarding polygamism with early mormons, Joseph Smith and his first group of 12 mens were using it all the time but hidding it from their wifes... Joseph Smith was married to more than 20 womens, without the knowledge of his wife, and problems occured when this first group around him wished to make this polygamism as an official rule of their sect.
It is also very well known that previously to Smiths writings about the supposed contain of its golden books, he was contacted by various members of masonics loges, and many of this church rituals, both sacred and profane, are directly taken from classical freemasonry and masonic orders'rituals. Many of the believes enumerated in the mormons books are also directly taken from those traditions, therefor the mormons books looks more, for a religions and myhtologies and esoterisms specialist point of view, like an amalguame or milk shake of several religious and sectars theories, well known within other religious groups, than a religion in itself. Nothing in the mormon books is original, all is taken from somewhere else, often with quiet a unimaginativ mind.
And thats the way the story goes.
that was for the personal, for all the facts listed above, I just wanted to state those things in a very clear way, giving a more balanced picture of the reality of this cult. Mormons can be very nice and helpfull people, nothing wrong about them nor that, but I am speaking here about the pendant and base of this pseudo religious cult, and being from Mircea Eliades classical school of myth and religious study, I can clearly see what is and what isn't from which and which religion or previous sect, or myth, as well as distinguish all borrowed elements from other cults.
I will also very much like to see on this discussion page as well as INSIDE the article, some writtings and facts who are not corresponding to the officialy aprouved official version of the church....
Kind Regards, Sophie, -- 213.237.21.242 16:42, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
For your knowledge I have used wikipedia for more than a year and know very well how it function.
By controversial I mean information non aprouved by presidents of the church.
Sophie -- 213.237.21.242 17:47, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
As you are a mormon too, your own contribution here is a statement for what I say, and I do not wish to comment anymore of those meaningsless remarks made by mormons adepts as they all summon up to the same.
This is an encyclopedia not an LSD meeting board nor a forum for beligerents view points.
Clean your front door instead to spit at your neighbourgs face. It will do some good for both.
-- 213.237.21.242 20:20, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
There is nothing that I stated above who is to be found in any of the articles.
There is nothing that I have stated who are second hands or stuff I have read somewhere, but all together things I was told at first hand by priest of the church, and by sisters of the church, missionaries, and members teaching at sunday schools, and priesthood teachings.
For what crimes?
Have nice sacrements tommorrow, and for those in Utah, hils Mr and Mrs Browns for me.
Peirani -- 213.237.21.242 21:30, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
After all your previously attacks nothing will surprised me.
Here is a very clear exemple of what I am warning you not to do so systematically: judge others on the basis of what you have been told and are well brain washed to judge as, but from what you can actually see and hear that those others are trying to tell you. I have absolutly nowhere in my contributions used the words hidden, nor secret, nor temple ordinances, but you have the audacity to present those words as being directly taken from my own text, so blinded you are of your own certitudes and prejudices! I found incredible that you couldnt see it on your own! I have extremely clearly stated, many times, and on several occasions and places, and repeated myself to death on each of my answer to your attacks, that the teaching I refer to, are USUAL TEACHING FOUNDING PLACE AT CHURCH ON SUNDAY MORNING.
Thanks. And hear yourself staging your speach, with "secrecy" and by "long been allegated Anti-mormons".. bouh! those bad anti mormons, have you been so brain washed and have you been assigned for so long to pursue the bad wiches that you can't actually see what is in front of your eyes?
This is the teaching held by missionaries, as well as teachers inside the church. I had very hot discussions with them about the subject, so believe me, I am not dreaming, and it isnt something who was say accidentally or that I had misunderstood. It is something who was with to retrieve me from the church as I couldn't agree to one more of those "changes to the original doctrine". I was vey irritated by those things, and founded impossible to trust anything who was sayed, as it was subject to changement and different interpretations all the time. Once, I just stand up and went away.
How could none of the baptised christian transmit their gift unless they were not really baptised? Thats the theory I have heard.
And you ask for prooves and books, go found it yourself when you are so keen at criticising others peoples research, why should you reap their fruits?! They are named after priest in the old testament, and if you knew something about hebrews history and about their religion you will also knew that those names become the denomination for specific degree of priesthood, and area of occupations, with their own specific teachings, and that they have the same name as in the mormon church as those models were borrowed to the hebraic priesthood system! Cant you think on your feet?
The heavenly mother is teached about and they say to have very little informations about her, and that she is the wife of God. You seems to deny it all so I strongly recommend you that you ask about it to other priests in your church and in your community, and eventually to the president of the church you are under, who could transmit your request to one of the apostle and have it all sorted out, confirmed or infirmed, instead of throwing stones at my face, like an idiot who can't accept what he wasnt told by his closest. It is childish and very unproductiv.
And concerning the baptism of the death, well, I heard clearly being stated that not all will be so, and that nevertheless it isnt the same as being an active member inside the church, nor as being a direct descendant of a pioneer, and that special rules apply there. What you are stating sounds more like missionary teaching at the first months of enrolment, than anything I heard thereafter. You might be against all of it, and so was I, but it doesnt change the FACT that it is happening and that those teachings are founding place, even today, and that they are professed by very well preapared teacher, or so should one believe, specially the missionary and specialy those coming from Utha, who are priest, and have officialy been accorded the assignement to teach, and retreated couples from Utha teaching here as missionaries should also be people to be trusted in their knowledge of the church and its teachings, as well as in mix class, where men and womens are teached, from a certain age, and having a certain level in their knowledge of the scriptures, where special subjects are being teached about and discussed, and where this subject about hell was teached about and I was well surprised to hear something very paradoxal to what I first thought it was about.
Sophie -- 213.237.21.242 05:17, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
I am not going to comment on Sophie's usage of English. I speak a foreign language well enough, and English is one of the most difficult to learn (as a non-native speaker). Some editors who otherwise do good work also have trouble with English grammar and spelling. I'm also not addressing the doctrinal mistakes in what Sophie has said; on Wikipedia, if challenged, it is up to the editors to provide citations for their information. Nor am I going to directly address Sophie's ignorance of the Wikipedia:Neutral point of view policy. I am dealing with Sophie's own "What I am stating here, far from being a personal opinion, are actual facts" with Sophie's own words, wikipedia records, common knowledge, and (for #6) personal opinion (mine is as good as Sophie's).
Quoting from Sophie:
And some advice to Sophie which comes from Sophie:
On the other hand, we may all just be feeding a troll. [Hint: If real, Sophie will understand his own words. If a troll, this soliloquy will continue.] Val42 06:40, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
So if I take the name "anonymous" as a pseudo, I will be as hiding and as showing as you are, because at the end, in both case it is a pseudonym with nothing to do with the person real name and identity.
WIKI is oppression and extinction of the freedom of expression, it is so corrupt that not one admi found it disturbing nor strange to banish or revert a user edit to impose his own point of view, on the sacro sankt name of wikis neutrality and equality!
English, danish, french, german, norvegian, swedish, occitan, latin, greek, and geek!
The brain cannot function with 2 types of logical sets and certainly not with one logic set applying to both logical and illogical stuff.
Jolly Jumper and his asperge -- 213.237.21.242 18:00, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
The fact that Sophie didn't even understand his own words (repeated back to him) means that he's not listening (even to himself) or that he is a troll. Either way, it is in the interests of enlightenment to have all of his text available for perusal by those in doubt. So I have restored his words of personal attack against me. I don't mind his words because they are not true, except any allegations that I am a follower of Jesus Christ. Val42 03:14, 16 June 2006 (UTC)