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Where exactly is this Stara Vlaška region of Croatia? The only Stara Vlaška I know is a street in Zagreb :)
My googling shows that it would be either be in Macedonia and Thessaly, or in the interior of "old Servia", or in Bosnia, which are all similarly ambiguous. The EB1911 goes into a bit more detail saying how Morlacchia came to be applied to pretty much all of modern Dalmatia, Bosnia and Slavonia, but that doesn't help the confusion... -- Joy [shallot] 20:49, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The page on Zlatibor now mentions Stari Vlah - look into that. -- Joy [shallot] 9 July 2005 13:05 (UTC)
I found a reference on a website (not necessarily reliable, I think it was [ [2]]) that said that Morovlachs meant 'Sea Vlachs'. I'm sure that's wrong, because 'Moro'/'Mavro' is more likely from a Greek word meaning 'black/brown'. But the explanation given on the site is that these Vlachs originally lived on the Sea coast (Dalmatia or Albania). Alexander 007 05:25, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Is there any connection between the name "Morlach" and " Morlock" (from H.G. Wells' books). Just wondering, perhaps it is a coincidence... - FrancisTyers 17:47, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
File:Vlachs.JPG | |
Regions with significant populations | |
---|---|
Bosnia Albania Romania Republic of Macedonia Bulgaria | |
Languages | |
Romanian and other languages in the areas in which they live | |
Religion | |
Eastern Orthodoxy, others | |
Related ethnic groups | |
•
Vlachs •
Romanians |
what's wrong with this inforbox? Can anyone tell me why is reverted? -- Preacher, or Princelet 13:31, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
From the article:
The first phase of that proactive assimilation of Morlachs took place in Herzegovina and Montenegro where they not only were accepting the language of the local Slavs (now identified Serbs), but also turning it into a new Slavic language "novo shtokavian" which would later serve as the base for Serbo-Croatian. But the fact that the Morlachs in the Western Balkan never reached the level of a nation, and had not given it their proper name resulted in recent disintegration of the Serbo-Croatian into Bosnian, Croatian and Serbian language.
Are you saying that Morlachs were responsible for generation of neo-shtokavian??? OMG! Morlachs are also responsible for disintegration of Serbo-Croatian??? That should better be backed up with some reliable sources. Otherwise, it doesn't belong to the article. Duja 10:56, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
-- kliker 02:53, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Part of the article says that "eventually most Morlachs linguistically assimilated the local Slavs." This statement is unclear, does it mean that the Slavs were assimilated into the Morlach population, or the Morlachs were assimilated into the Slav population? Later in the article it says the latter, but that happened much later. This should probably be cleared up. Rcduggan ( talk) 13:11, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
I copy-pasted this from the article:
What is the source for this? It looks like extravagant text and also it is mostly off-topic. A is putting the smack down ( talk) 11:46, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
There is confusion in the article between speakers of Dalmatian language/ Vegliot on one hand and speakers of Eastern Romance on the other. This confusion has been in the article for years and I brought it to attention on this talk page back in 2006. For example, the references to Morlachs on the island of Krk (also called Veglia), where Dalmatian speakers were settled leads me to conclude that the reference is to Dalmatian-speakers. Was the term Vlach and Maurovlach used for Dalmatian speakers and Easteern Romance speakers? This may be the case, for example Italians have also been referred to as Vlachs (by Poles, etc.). A is putting the smack down ( talk) 19:08, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
The number of Morlachs are very low, perhaps full-blooded or self-designated members of the ethnic group are gone. They paid a heavy toll of cultural assimilation into Croatian/ Yugoslavian and/or Italian society. Some ethnological sources continued to portray Morlachs in the Balkans and perhaps a subgroup of Croatian-Italians a "dormant ethnicity" who have living descendants living at the present, but none of them to our knowledge are observing Morlachian customs such as learning to speak the ancestral language. The 20 Morlachs of Croatia in the 21st century are in it's end.
I doubt any "born again Morlachian" is around to create a neo-Morlachian or "Balkan Morlach Revival" movement, unlike the current Celtic revival movements of "born again Celts" in late 20th century England with the issue of Cornish people and the lloegr or "lost land people" in Great Britain; and the Celtic nationalists of Galicians or Cantabricans in northern Spain. The Morlachs were a missing piece of European history, the Romanized peoples of what later became Yugoslavia after the Slavic peoples resettled the land. + 71.102.2.206 ( talk) 03:20, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
Has anybody taken pains to track down and interview these remaining 22 people? I think it should be done for the sake of collecting as much information as possible. It is odd that we have this chance still and do not make use of it. Many sources state that Morlachs were extict since the XVIII or XIX century and now (in 1991) 22 people happened to identify themselves as Morlachs. Is it not a great thing...?
Aldrasto (
talk) 12:10, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
Maybe you are right, maybe not... Nonetheless I think given the present circumstances it would be worth its while to hear what these people have to say about their family history, descent, migrations etc. Let people tell their story... Morlachs as other Rumenians/Arumenians are jealously attached to their origins and traditions. It seems these 22 people live in Istria, together with other Istroromanians: this proves that they all feel a sense of belonging to same great family of the Romanians of the Balkans. It is a nation that has lived there and survived for more than 2000 years. As such it has its distictive charachter and outstanding ethnological interest. There are just 22 of them left who still identify themselves as Morlachs, why not spending the time and effort? Aldrasto ( talk) 15:43, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
Riadder ( talk) 09:50, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
It says in this article that "Black" might mean "Northern" according to Turkish name of the cardinal points, there might be some other explanations, for example this alternative explanation using the old-Slavonic cardinal points names (which is actually reversed)
"The ethnographic explanation that the term was applied from the old-Slavonic use of colours for the cardinal points on the compass. The ancient totem-god Svitovyd had four faces. The northern face of this totem was white (hence White Russia), the western face red (hence Chervona (Red) Rus'), the southern black and the eastern green (hence Zelenyj klyn). This, however, makes the placement of Black Ruthenia problematic." from White Russia . - signed by anon IP
So, which one is the correct (or most likely) explanation? -- man with one red shoe 15:47, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
First, Turkish is not Turkish, it's Old-Iranian. I've never heard about reverse Old-Slavonic (!?). There are other explanations about 'black' like color of Morlachian clothes - dark, black,... Zenanarh ( talk) 07:18, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
Please avoid eliminating Croatian census from text. It is official data not private data. Your edits are original research (OR) in the language of Wikipedia. Riadder ( talk) 08:34, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
Response to third opinion request: |
I'm not seeing a citation to the census in question, please provide one. As for the nature of censuses: Statistics bureaus are not policymakers. "Official recognition" implies policymaking. Therefore, statistics bureaus do not provide "official recognition." I do not know of exceptions to that rule, but if you do, feel free to provide relevant citations. In the meanwhile, here's some reading. François Robere ( talk) 00:08, 13 February 2018 (UTC) |
Warning. Frecvent disrupting was reported to administrators. Please read about exonims before making disruptive edits.
Denying the existence of a minority is a NATIONALISTIC and RASIST approach
Riadder (
talk) 05:59, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Please see section above, #Croatian census and recent revert war. Staszek Lem ( talk) 17:55, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
86.124.160.242 ( talk) 17:20, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
Minority heritage is often marginalized or even destroyed –it is sometimes even stripped of its right to be called ‘heritage,’ and the minorities this heritage belongs to are forced to live in conditions which are close to assimilation. It is the case of Morlachs/Vlachs from Croatia. 79.112.45.135 ( talk) 06:51, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
"This however is denied by the Abbé Fortis who hath published a volume of travels into that country. He informs us that the origin of the Morlacchi is involved in the darkness of barbarous ages ....
With regard to the etymology of the name the Abbé observes that the Morlacchi generally call them selves in their own language Vlassi a national term of which no vestige is found in the records of Dalmatia till the 13th century. It signifies powerful men or men of authority and the denomination of Moro Vlassi, corruptly, Morlacchi as they are now called may perhaps point out the original of the nation. This word may posibly signify the conquerors that came from the sea Moor in all the dialects of the Sclavonian language signifying the sea. "
The Morlacchi are so different from the inhabitants of the sea-coasts in dialect, dress, dispositions, that they seem clearly to be of a different original, or at least the colonies must have settled distant periods from each other, that they have had time to alter in a great measure their national character. There is also a remarkable diversity among the Morlacchi themselves in several districts on account of the different countries from whence they came. source: "Encyclopedia Britannica", EDINBURGH PRINTED FOR A. BELL AND C. MACFARQUHAR MDCCXCVII — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.223.163.182 ( talk) 18:32, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
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This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist.
Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. |
Reporting errors |
Where exactly is this Stara Vlaška region of Croatia? The only Stara Vlaška I know is a street in Zagreb :)
My googling shows that it would be either be in Macedonia and Thessaly, or in the interior of "old Servia", or in Bosnia, which are all similarly ambiguous. The EB1911 goes into a bit more detail saying how Morlacchia came to be applied to pretty much all of modern Dalmatia, Bosnia and Slavonia, but that doesn't help the confusion... -- Joy [shallot] 20:49, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The page on Zlatibor now mentions Stari Vlah - look into that. -- Joy [shallot] 9 July 2005 13:05 (UTC)
I found a reference on a website (not necessarily reliable, I think it was [ [2]]) that said that Morovlachs meant 'Sea Vlachs'. I'm sure that's wrong, because 'Moro'/'Mavro' is more likely from a Greek word meaning 'black/brown'. But the explanation given on the site is that these Vlachs originally lived on the Sea coast (Dalmatia or Albania). Alexander 007 05:25, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Is there any connection between the name "Morlach" and " Morlock" (from H.G. Wells' books). Just wondering, perhaps it is a coincidence... - FrancisTyers 17:47, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
File:Vlachs.JPG | |
Regions with significant populations | |
---|---|
Bosnia Albania Romania Republic of Macedonia Bulgaria | |
Languages | |
Romanian and other languages in the areas in which they live | |
Religion | |
Eastern Orthodoxy, others | |
Related ethnic groups | |
•
Vlachs •
Romanians |
what's wrong with this inforbox? Can anyone tell me why is reverted? -- Preacher, or Princelet 13:31, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
From the article:
The first phase of that proactive assimilation of Morlachs took place in Herzegovina and Montenegro where they not only were accepting the language of the local Slavs (now identified Serbs), but also turning it into a new Slavic language "novo shtokavian" which would later serve as the base for Serbo-Croatian. But the fact that the Morlachs in the Western Balkan never reached the level of a nation, and had not given it their proper name resulted in recent disintegration of the Serbo-Croatian into Bosnian, Croatian and Serbian language.
Are you saying that Morlachs were responsible for generation of neo-shtokavian??? OMG! Morlachs are also responsible for disintegration of Serbo-Croatian??? That should better be backed up with some reliable sources. Otherwise, it doesn't belong to the article. Duja 10:56, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
-- kliker 02:53, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Part of the article says that "eventually most Morlachs linguistically assimilated the local Slavs." This statement is unclear, does it mean that the Slavs were assimilated into the Morlach population, or the Morlachs were assimilated into the Slav population? Later in the article it says the latter, but that happened much later. This should probably be cleared up. Rcduggan ( talk) 13:11, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
I copy-pasted this from the article:
What is the source for this? It looks like extravagant text and also it is mostly off-topic. A is putting the smack down ( talk) 11:46, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
There is confusion in the article between speakers of Dalmatian language/ Vegliot on one hand and speakers of Eastern Romance on the other. This confusion has been in the article for years and I brought it to attention on this talk page back in 2006. For example, the references to Morlachs on the island of Krk (also called Veglia), where Dalmatian speakers were settled leads me to conclude that the reference is to Dalmatian-speakers. Was the term Vlach and Maurovlach used for Dalmatian speakers and Easteern Romance speakers? This may be the case, for example Italians have also been referred to as Vlachs (by Poles, etc.). A is putting the smack down ( talk) 19:08, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
The number of Morlachs are very low, perhaps full-blooded or self-designated members of the ethnic group are gone. They paid a heavy toll of cultural assimilation into Croatian/ Yugoslavian and/or Italian society. Some ethnological sources continued to portray Morlachs in the Balkans and perhaps a subgroup of Croatian-Italians a "dormant ethnicity" who have living descendants living at the present, but none of them to our knowledge are observing Morlachian customs such as learning to speak the ancestral language. The 20 Morlachs of Croatia in the 21st century are in it's end.
I doubt any "born again Morlachian" is around to create a neo-Morlachian or "Balkan Morlach Revival" movement, unlike the current Celtic revival movements of "born again Celts" in late 20th century England with the issue of Cornish people and the lloegr or "lost land people" in Great Britain; and the Celtic nationalists of Galicians or Cantabricans in northern Spain. The Morlachs were a missing piece of European history, the Romanized peoples of what later became Yugoslavia after the Slavic peoples resettled the land. + 71.102.2.206 ( talk) 03:20, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
Has anybody taken pains to track down and interview these remaining 22 people? I think it should be done for the sake of collecting as much information as possible. It is odd that we have this chance still and do not make use of it. Many sources state that Morlachs were extict since the XVIII or XIX century and now (in 1991) 22 people happened to identify themselves as Morlachs. Is it not a great thing...?
Aldrasto (
talk) 12:10, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
Maybe you are right, maybe not... Nonetheless I think given the present circumstances it would be worth its while to hear what these people have to say about their family history, descent, migrations etc. Let people tell their story... Morlachs as other Rumenians/Arumenians are jealously attached to their origins and traditions. It seems these 22 people live in Istria, together with other Istroromanians: this proves that they all feel a sense of belonging to same great family of the Romanians of the Balkans. It is a nation that has lived there and survived for more than 2000 years. As such it has its distictive charachter and outstanding ethnological interest. There are just 22 of them left who still identify themselves as Morlachs, why not spending the time and effort? Aldrasto ( talk) 15:43, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
Riadder ( talk) 09:50, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
It says in this article that "Black" might mean "Northern" according to Turkish name of the cardinal points, there might be some other explanations, for example this alternative explanation using the old-Slavonic cardinal points names (which is actually reversed)
"The ethnographic explanation that the term was applied from the old-Slavonic use of colours for the cardinal points on the compass. The ancient totem-god Svitovyd had four faces. The northern face of this totem was white (hence White Russia), the western face red (hence Chervona (Red) Rus'), the southern black and the eastern green (hence Zelenyj klyn). This, however, makes the placement of Black Ruthenia problematic." from White Russia . - signed by anon IP
So, which one is the correct (or most likely) explanation? -- man with one red shoe 15:47, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
First, Turkish is not Turkish, it's Old-Iranian. I've never heard about reverse Old-Slavonic (!?). There are other explanations about 'black' like color of Morlachian clothes - dark, black,... Zenanarh ( talk) 07:18, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
Please avoid eliminating Croatian census from text. It is official data not private data. Your edits are original research (OR) in the language of Wikipedia. Riadder ( talk) 08:34, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
Response to third opinion request: |
I'm not seeing a citation to the census in question, please provide one. As for the nature of censuses: Statistics bureaus are not policymakers. "Official recognition" implies policymaking. Therefore, statistics bureaus do not provide "official recognition." I do not know of exceptions to that rule, but if you do, feel free to provide relevant citations. In the meanwhile, here's some reading. François Robere ( talk) 00:08, 13 February 2018 (UTC) |
Warning. Frecvent disrupting was reported to administrators. Please read about exonims before making disruptive edits.
Denying the existence of a minority is a NATIONALISTIC and RASIST approach
Riadder (
talk) 05:59, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Please see section above, #Croatian census and recent revert war. Staszek Lem ( talk) 17:55, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
86.124.160.242 ( talk) 17:20, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
Minority heritage is often marginalized or even destroyed –it is sometimes even stripped of its right to be called ‘heritage,’ and the minorities this heritage belongs to are forced to live in conditions which are close to assimilation. It is the case of Morlachs/Vlachs from Croatia. 79.112.45.135 ( talk) 06:51, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
"This however is denied by the Abbé Fortis who hath published a volume of travels into that country. He informs us that the origin of the Morlacchi is involved in the darkness of barbarous ages ....
With regard to the etymology of the name the Abbé observes that the Morlacchi generally call them selves in their own language Vlassi a national term of which no vestige is found in the records of Dalmatia till the 13th century. It signifies powerful men or men of authority and the denomination of Moro Vlassi, corruptly, Morlacchi as they are now called may perhaps point out the original of the nation. This word may posibly signify the conquerors that came from the sea Moor in all the dialects of the Sclavonian language signifying the sea. "
The Morlacchi are so different from the inhabitants of the sea-coasts in dialect, dress, dispositions, that they seem clearly to be of a different original, or at least the colonies must have settled distant periods from each other, that they have had time to alter in a great measure their national character. There is also a remarkable diversity among the Morlacchi themselves in several districts on account of the different countries from whence they came. source: "Encyclopedia Britannica", EDINBURGH PRINTED FOR A. BELL AND C. MACFARQUHAR MDCCXCVII — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.223.163.182 ( talk) 18:32, 10 October 2020 (UTC)