![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||
|
Re: Another term for "mora" transparent to non-linguists.
Having difficulty explaining why counting syllabets created English haiku that were far longer than Japanese haiku, I found that we needed a new term, similar to "mora" but readable at a glance and far easier to remember. It is "syllabet." So far, I have only found it mentioned (I did get credit) in an article in a haiku magazine called Haijinxs.
"Syllabet" seems an intuitively correct way to describe the letters making up the Japanese syllabary.
Please feel free to use it!
robin d. gill
paraverse.org
Have revised the page WRT syllable-final consonants. The assumption that a syllable-final C counts as a mora on its own is incorrect, and is probably based on the situation in Japanese. In Japanese, only [n] can appear as a syllable coda, and it is pronounced syllabically, hence it is always a mora in Japanese. However, there's no phonological reason why the English word cat should be analysed as bimoraic. thefamouseccles 13:58 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)
>>In Japanese, only [n] can appear as a syllable coda, and it is pronounced syllabically, hence it is always a mora in Japanese<< IS WRONG. For example, the so-called double consonants in the middle of words, phonological geminates, also represent some sort of syllable coda. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 133.7.7.19 ( talk) 06:38, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
Added "modern" to the word "Japanese" last paragraph, since ancient Japanese was strictly syllable counting until in Heian period and ranged between mora counting and syllable counting even later (Bashō's poems vary between counting and not counting moraic n). -- FAeR 16:31, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Can someone please add some examples to this article? As a non-Japanese speaker (and non-professional linguist), I think it would make the subject much easier to understand. matturn 00:41, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
I know of no earlier use of the term "mora" as a linguistic unit than that by Edward Sapir. Unless someone knows of an earlier source, perhaps he should be given credit for coining this usage at least. Ziusudra 21:09, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
"Mora" is a Latin term indicating a small delay or duration of time. This in mind, the plural "moræ" is acceptable. In addition to "moræ" and "moras", I have seen, in the work of Priebsch for instance, the use of the plural "moren". This plural seems natural and odd, and I am inclined to believe it comes from Priebsch, or some other German Filolog, introducing the word into English from German (which must have received it from Latin first), rather than Latin, and other, English writers, picking up this plural from him. Priebsch also suggests the idea of "half-moren" in order to solve certain moren counting inconsistencies.
The fact that Japanese uses moras for counting beats does not mean Japanese doesn't have syllables. The "syllabic n" can only be found in syllable coda position: [pan] is a possible (and real) word of Japanese, while *[npa] isn't. The "gemination mora" can also only occur in coda position: [patto] is a possible word of Japanese, but *[ppato] isn't. [pan] is "two beats" because it's two moras, and moras are what's counted in Japanese. But Japanese still definitely has syllables. Angr ( t • c) 10:34, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
I think more examples are needed. The subject is hard enough to understand as is.
It's not that simple. Japanese is not English, and IMHO in Japanese the distinction between syllables and morae is not as marked (if there is any distinction at all). The syllabic nasal ん does occur as a word in it's own right, being a contraction of の "no". In songs ん is treated like any other syllable. That's why it's still reasonably accurate to say that a Haiku is 5/7/5 syllables. What about unvoiced vowels? した "shita" might sound like "shta" to the layman (one syllable) but in fact it is a full two syllables. The first one has an unvoiced vowel but still you put your mouth in the position of saying "shi" and you take about the same time to say it as if you voiced the /i/. It would feel wrong to think of "pan" or "shita" as one syllable words. You just wouldn't be speaking the language correctly.
Raichu2 (
talk)
18:30, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
It is correct that in Japanese, the words Tōkyō (to-o-kyo-o とうきょう), Ōsaka (o-o-sa-ka おおさか), and Nagasaki (na-ga-sa-ki ながさき) all have four moras. To state that "they have two, three, and four syllables, respectively." is wrong. In Japanese each letter has one syllable. Japanese isn't English. In Japanese the letter for syllables and mora are basically the same. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.25.45.65 ( talk) 17:18, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
There is at least one Japanese word starting with "n": "nda", which means "yes" in Akita dialect. JIMp talk· cont 13:56, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
From the article: "Most linguists believe that no language uses syllables containing four or more moras." But how is the English word " trounced" [tɹ̥aʊnst] ordinarily broken up into moras? Using Japanese rules, it would be t-ro-u-n-ce-d (トラウンスト). -- Damian Yerrick ( talk | stalk)
My 2¢: It's kind of interesting that every monosyllabic English word with no coda and a lax vowel (ǝ, e, ı, æ, ɑ/ɔ, ʌ; those that were short before the Great Vowel Shift) is a function word. 137.99.243.225 ( talk) 13:19, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
Plenty of English examples would be helpful. After all, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and is, surely, widely consulted by people with no specialized knowledge of the subject. Norvo ( talk) 03:20, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
I agree with Norvo. If you understand it, then you'd be able to simplify it to layman's terms. After reading once through the article I still have no real concept of what mora is. Please give examples, something we can identify with. Dragix ( talk) 20:56, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
Would it be possible to include a link to a audio file of a linguist reading the text? Reading the examples out loud requires an understanding that not everyone has. In this case a sound is worth a thousand characters. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Docmartin9 ( talk • contribs) 03:20, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
I also agree with Norvo and Dragix that examples in English (the language I read Wikipedia in) would be greatly helpful. Also most helpful in the list of languages would be English, at least as helpful as, say, Gilbertese. 66.241.92.187 ( talk) 19:11, 15 February 2011 (UTC)TerryDarc
Joining the Greek chorus, I would underscore the importance of these suggestions. There's a whole family of terms (mora, isochrony, prosody) that are incredibly important not only to linguists but musicians. I've been wrestling with these terms for years and would be in heaven if Wikipedia could establish a global policy of providing examples for terms, with audio being highly encouraged. Just as you add warnings such as "this article needs citations", you could add "this article needs examples". Otherwise each of the articles of this type becomes a discussion among people who already understand the subject, while many of us laymen are desperately trying to understand it in the first place! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kevintimba ( talk • contribs) 20:39, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
"the words Tōkyō (to-o-kyo-o とうきょう), Ōsaka (o-o-sa-ka おおさか), and Nagasaki (na-ga-sa-ki ながさき) all have four moras, even though they have two, three, and four syllables, respectively."
This is wrong. All three of these words have four syllables. Fix this junk. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.145.68.29 ( talk) 05:18, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
Actually, I see another issue with this: as I understand it, the concept of "syllable" is as obscure to Japanese speakers as "morae" is to English speakers. I am not certain you can state unequivocally that, in Japanese, Osaka has three syllables, for example. Taking this point together with my point above it makes the statement that Tokyo has two syllables even more confusing and even less helpful. Tesspub ( talk) 10:34, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
Could be nice if the symbol µ for mora was mentioned somewhere in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.52.84.147 ( talk) 11:31, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
Is Latin metre effectively an example, with long syllables being two moras long? If so perhaps the article should say something about this. Ben Finn ( talk) 11:30, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
This section is not really useful without transliteration of what I assume is Tamil script. A translation of meaning would also be a polite addition. 121.215.167.60 ( talk) 00:33, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
![]() | This help request has been answered. If you need more help, you can , contact the responding user(s) directly on their user talk page, or consider visiting the Teahouse. |
Is there a tag marking this page as missing translation/transliteration/transcription? -- Pe t 'usek petrdothrubisatgmaildotcom 22:28, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
Is it not rather that the syllable onset TOGETHER WITH the syllable nucleus represents at least one mora? -- Backinstadiums ( talk) 18:16, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
The article doesn't mention which diphthongs are short in Present English or Old English -- Backinstadiums ( talk) 18:22, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||
|
Re: Another term for "mora" transparent to non-linguists.
Having difficulty explaining why counting syllabets created English haiku that were far longer than Japanese haiku, I found that we needed a new term, similar to "mora" but readable at a glance and far easier to remember. It is "syllabet." So far, I have only found it mentioned (I did get credit) in an article in a haiku magazine called Haijinxs.
"Syllabet" seems an intuitively correct way to describe the letters making up the Japanese syllabary.
Please feel free to use it!
robin d. gill
paraverse.org
Have revised the page WRT syllable-final consonants. The assumption that a syllable-final C counts as a mora on its own is incorrect, and is probably based on the situation in Japanese. In Japanese, only [n] can appear as a syllable coda, and it is pronounced syllabically, hence it is always a mora in Japanese. However, there's no phonological reason why the English word cat should be analysed as bimoraic. thefamouseccles 13:58 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)
>>In Japanese, only [n] can appear as a syllable coda, and it is pronounced syllabically, hence it is always a mora in Japanese<< IS WRONG. For example, the so-called double consonants in the middle of words, phonological geminates, also represent some sort of syllable coda. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 133.7.7.19 ( talk) 06:38, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
Added "modern" to the word "Japanese" last paragraph, since ancient Japanese was strictly syllable counting until in Heian period and ranged between mora counting and syllable counting even later (Bashō's poems vary between counting and not counting moraic n). -- FAeR 16:31, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Can someone please add some examples to this article? As a non-Japanese speaker (and non-professional linguist), I think it would make the subject much easier to understand. matturn 00:41, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
I know of no earlier use of the term "mora" as a linguistic unit than that by Edward Sapir. Unless someone knows of an earlier source, perhaps he should be given credit for coining this usage at least. Ziusudra 21:09, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
"Mora" is a Latin term indicating a small delay or duration of time. This in mind, the plural "moræ" is acceptable. In addition to "moræ" and "moras", I have seen, in the work of Priebsch for instance, the use of the plural "moren". This plural seems natural and odd, and I am inclined to believe it comes from Priebsch, or some other German Filolog, introducing the word into English from German (which must have received it from Latin first), rather than Latin, and other, English writers, picking up this plural from him. Priebsch also suggests the idea of "half-moren" in order to solve certain moren counting inconsistencies.
The fact that Japanese uses moras for counting beats does not mean Japanese doesn't have syllables. The "syllabic n" can only be found in syllable coda position: [pan] is a possible (and real) word of Japanese, while *[npa] isn't. The "gemination mora" can also only occur in coda position: [patto] is a possible word of Japanese, but *[ppato] isn't. [pan] is "two beats" because it's two moras, and moras are what's counted in Japanese. But Japanese still definitely has syllables. Angr ( t • c) 10:34, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
I think more examples are needed. The subject is hard enough to understand as is.
It's not that simple. Japanese is not English, and IMHO in Japanese the distinction between syllables and morae is not as marked (if there is any distinction at all). The syllabic nasal ん does occur as a word in it's own right, being a contraction of の "no". In songs ん is treated like any other syllable. That's why it's still reasonably accurate to say that a Haiku is 5/7/5 syllables. What about unvoiced vowels? した "shita" might sound like "shta" to the layman (one syllable) but in fact it is a full two syllables. The first one has an unvoiced vowel but still you put your mouth in the position of saying "shi" and you take about the same time to say it as if you voiced the /i/. It would feel wrong to think of "pan" or "shita" as one syllable words. You just wouldn't be speaking the language correctly.
Raichu2 (
talk)
18:30, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
It is correct that in Japanese, the words Tōkyō (to-o-kyo-o とうきょう), Ōsaka (o-o-sa-ka おおさか), and Nagasaki (na-ga-sa-ki ながさき) all have four moras. To state that "they have two, three, and four syllables, respectively." is wrong. In Japanese each letter has one syllable. Japanese isn't English. In Japanese the letter for syllables and mora are basically the same. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.25.45.65 ( talk) 17:18, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
There is at least one Japanese word starting with "n": "nda", which means "yes" in Akita dialect. JIMp talk· cont 13:56, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
From the article: "Most linguists believe that no language uses syllables containing four or more moras." But how is the English word " trounced" [tɹ̥aʊnst] ordinarily broken up into moras? Using Japanese rules, it would be t-ro-u-n-ce-d (トラウンスト). -- Damian Yerrick ( talk | stalk)
My 2¢: It's kind of interesting that every monosyllabic English word with no coda and a lax vowel (ǝ, e, ı, æ, ɑ/ɔ, ʌ; those that were short before the Great Vowel Shift) is a function word. 137.99.243.225 ( talk) 13:19, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
Plenty of English examples would be helpful. After all, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and is, surely, widely consulted by people with no specialized knowledge of the subject. Norvo ( talk) 03:20, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
I agree with Norvo. If you understand it, then you'd be able to simplify it to layman's terms. After reading once through the article I still have no real concept of what mora is. Please give examples, something we can identify with. Dragix ( talk) 20:56, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
Would it be possible to include a link to a audio file of a linguist reading the text? Reading the examples out loud requires an understanding that not everyone has. In this case a sound is worth a thousand characters. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Docmartin9 ( talk • contribs) 03:20, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
I also agree with Norvo and Dragix that examples in English (the language I read Wikipedia in) would be greatly helpful. Also most helpful in the list of languages would be English, at least as helpful as, say, Gilbertese. 66.241.92.187 ( talk) 19:11, 15 February 2011 (UTC)TerryDarc
Joining the Greek chorus, I would underscore the importance of these suggestions. There's a whole family of terms (mora, isochrony, prosody) that are incredibly important not only to linguists but musicians. I've been wrestling with these terms for years and would be in heaven if Wikipedia could establish a global policy of providing examples for terms, with audio being highly encouraged. Just as you add warnings such as "this article needs citations", you could add "this article needs examples". Otherwise each of the articles of this type becomes a discussion among people who already understand the subject, while many of us laymen are desperately trying to understand it in the first place! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kevintimba ( talk • contribs) 20:39, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
"the words Tōkyō (to-o-kyo-o とうきょう), Ōsaka (o-o-sa-ka おおさか), and Nagasaki (na-ga-sa-ki ながさき) all have four moras, even though they have two, three, and four syllables, respectively."
This is wrong. All three of these words have four syllables. Fix this junk. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.145.68.29 ( talk) 05:18, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
Actually, I see another issue with this: as I understand it, the concept of "syllable" is as obscure to Japanese speakers as "morae" is to English speakers. I am not certain you can state unequivocally that, in Japanese, Osaka has three syllables, for example. Taking this point together with my point above it makes the statement that Tokyo has two syllables even more confusing and even less helpful. Tesspub ( talk) 10:34, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
Could be nice if the symbol µ for mora was mentioned somewhere in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.52.84.147 ( talk) 11:31, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
Is Latin metre effectively an example, with long syllables being two moras long? If so perhaps the article should say something about this. Ben Finn ( talk) 11:30, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
This section is not really useful without transliteration of what I assume is Tamil script. A translation of meaning would also be a polite addition. 121.215.167.60 ( talk) 00:33, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
![]() | This help request has been answered. If you need more help, you can , contact the responding user(s) directly on their user talk page, or consider visiting the Teahouse. |
Is there a tag marking this page as missing translation/transliteration/transcription? -- Pe t 'usek petrdothrubisatgmaildotcom 22:28, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
Is it not rather that the syllable onset TOGETHER WITH the syllable nucleus represents at least one mora? -- Backinstadiums ( talk) 18:16, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
The article doesn't mention which diphthongs are short in Present English or Old English -- Backinstadiums ( talk) 18:22, 10 March 2020 (UTC)