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Does anybody know where I can find a description of a cheese bagel to show people who have never seen or had one? I was trying to explain to some people that what the Bagel Factory here in the UK calls a cheese bagel is a sorry joke, but I can't find a description of a real one any where. Even Google Images of "cheese bagel" shows only normal bagels!
Er... what is a cheese bagel? BorisAnthony 06:05, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
There is a picture of a cheese bagel at:
http://theketchupkid.blogspot.com/2006/04/dads-bagels.html
Anyone know what the web site is for REAL Bagel? PaulSchreiber 07:26, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
You know, this article could do with complementary New York-style bagel article...
"the Montreal bagel ... is always baked in a wood-fired oven." That's not really true. The Faubourg Ste-Catherine bagel shop makes what are indisputably Montreal-style bagels in a gas-fired oven. This may or may not be considered sacrilege, but that's beside the point. So, barring any objections, I'm going to take that bit out. -- Nephtes 13:50, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't know enough about Montreal bagels to do anything myself, but I don't think the article can stay as is. I say this as a Canadian and a New Yorker. Dkatzism 21:02, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I have reverted the latest additions by Lance6968 because they were promoting specific commercial establishments, which is not appropriate. Also, there were some factual inaccuracies in his version; the fact that a product is not certified kosher does not mean that it is not kosher. Many restaurants that cannot afford the high certification fees will still serve kosher food, sometimes signalling this by symbols such as a star of David in their window. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 192.30.202.19 ( talk) 21:29, 16 February 2007 (UTC).
As 132.211.195.38 has chosen to comment on one of my edits in an unrelated edit summary, I think it only appropriate that I respond here. 132.211.195.38 writes "Reference is appropriate; evidently, Victoria doesn't understand the details", which I can only assume to be a reference to an I made five days ago. Anyone caring to investigate will find that the reference followed the following statement: "Some of the traditional Montreal bagel bakeries are not certified kosher". However, the source in question makes no such assertion - in fact, bagel bakeries, whether in Montreal or elsewhere, are not mentioned. Personally, I have a feeling that the statement is correct, but have been unable to find a verifable source. I'm hoping someone else has better luck. Victoriagirl 18:09, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
"Some of the traditional Montreal bagel bakeries are not certified kosher". However, the source in question makes no such assertion - in fact, bagel bakeries, whether in Montreal or elsewhere, are not mentioned.
is false, check the Web site for yourself for a complete list of kosher certified companies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.211.195.38 ( talk • contribs)
An argument from ignorance is obviously not persuasive; for greater certainty, I'll repeat what I had written previously, if a business is not certified kosher by the Vaad Hair, (pronounced 'Vah-ad Ha-ear'), then it is not kosher, no 'if's 'and's or 'but's; again it is really not that complex. So the statement: "Though they may be kosher in practice, some of the traditional Montreal bagel bakeries are not certified as such by the Jewish Community Council of Montreal" is factually false and misleading. The food produced is either kosher or it is not; if food is prepared without Rabbinical supervision, it is not considered kosher by observant Jews; i.e., the food is presumed to fail to adhere to the requirements set out in the Bible.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.211.195.38 ( talk • contribs)
On what is or is not kosher - food is kosher if it is in accordance with jewish dietary laws. Vaad Hair inspects food establishments to see if they comply with these laws and charges the business a fee for doing so. They are not the only organization that does so, and often the sephardic and askenazic jewish communities, who have slightly different interpretations of the laws, will have separate inspectors. Anyone can take on the business of kosher certification and put his seal of approval on the food; it is simply a matter of whether other people in the community respect his ability to do so. There is no magic to the inspection that makes something kosher; it is simply a matter of having the process checked by someone who, because of his position in the community, is trusted to be able to make that kind of determination. If Vaad Hair makes a mistake and puts its seal of approval on something that was not kosher, it is still unkosher. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.30.202.21 ( talk) 15:40, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
I've just finished reading Marlene Bonneau's "Getting Married in Montreal with Two Wedding Rings", which has been cited in this article. This citation, contributed by an anonymous user at the Toronto Public Library, concerns Jewish wedding ceremonies in Montreal. It is currently provided as a "Footnote" after the following: "The relatively recent establishment of a new bakery in the Town of Mount Royal has obtained kosher certification, perhaps reflecting a return to Orthodoxy among the Jews remaining in Montreal who have not left for other cities in North America and Israel; or else reflecting a trend to increasing strictness and formalism within the Orthodox community."
I recognize that Bonneau's article is provided as a footnote, and not as a source for the sentence which it follows (indeed there is no mention of bagels, a new bakery, the Town of Mount Royal, other North American cities, or Israel). In the interests of clarity, I've placed an "original research?" tag on the sentence quoted as there is no indication as to the source of the speculations it contains. Victoriagirl 23:15, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
The Bonneau article demonstrates the proposition that the orthodox Jewish community in Montreal has adopteda stricter and more formalistic approach to Jewish tradition over the years, showing this by looking at the changes in wedding customs and ceremonies. It doesn't deal with the bagel-specific issues!
I just removed the following from the article:
"The bagel was introduced to Montreal by a baker named Engelman who arrived in the City from Russia in 1919; his descendants continue to make bagels today.{{ Fact|date=April 2007}}" (template excluded to avoid placing talk page in categories)
I removed this since it seems to me unlikely that this can be sourced. Since it would be a great addition to the article if the introduction of bagels to Montreal could be credited and sourced, I'm going to leave this here, in case someone can find a reliable source to which this can be attributed. Nihiltres( t. c. s) 19:58, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
The source was the article on bagels in French Wikipedia; unfortunately, there is no specific footnote or reference in that article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.30.202.18 ( talk) 19:01, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
I am removing the following statement for being extremely incorrect: "and bagels, sometimes pronounced with a soft "g" in French, have become a part of the broader Montreal culture." Although they are sometimes pronounced with a soft g in french, it is always as a joke...never as an actual way of pronouncing it. Lg1223 01:35, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
This article talk page was automatically added with {{ WikiProject Food and drink}} banner as it falls under Category:Food or one of its subcategories. If you find this addition an error, Kindly undo the changes and update the inappropriate categories if needed. The bot was instructed to tagg these articles upon consenus from WikiProject Food and drink. You can find the related request for tagging here . If you have concerns , please inform on the project talk page -- TinucherianBot ( talk) 15:38, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Not sure about this line: "this style of bagel is almost completely unknown in the northeastern U.S. despite its proximity to Montreal.."
Does a Montreal-style bagel producing outfit in Burlington, VT (Myer's Bagels, less than 2 hrs from Montreal) undermine or support such a claim. 'Almost completely unknown' is pretty strong... Just a thought.-- Jonashart ( talk) 03:32, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
It's been suggested (by the person @ 98.113.62.179) that this doesn't belong in the History section. I'm not so sure this is so, and I've reverted his deletion of my addition. I'm pretty much a newbie editor, so perhaps other Wikipedia editors have an idea of how we should handle this: remove the reference to the Montreal Bagel's rarity in the Northeastern US? Remove the reference to the specific bakery (which could be construed as advertising-like)? Add a section on "Geographic Spread" (this sounds silly and trivial, though). Let's brainstorm this. --Mark Asread 13:51, 8 June 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mark Asread
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Does anybody know where I can find a description of a cheese bagel to show people who have never seen or had one? I was trying to explain to some people that what the Bagel Factory here in the UK calls a cheese bagel is a sorry joke, but I can't find a description of a real one any where. Even Google Images of "cheese bagel" shows only normal bagels!
Er... what is a cheese bagel? BorisAnthony 06:05, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
There is a picture of a cheese bagel at:
http://theketchupkid.blogspot.com/2006/04/dads-bagels.html
Anyone know what the web site is for REAL Bagel? PaulSchreiber 07:26, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
You know, this article could do with complementary New York-style bagel article...
"the Montreal bagel ... is always baked in a wood-fired oven." That's not really true. The Faubourg Ste-Catherine bagel shop makes what are indisputably Montreal-style bagels in a gas-fired oven. This may or may not be considered sacrilege, but that's beside the point. So, barring any objections, I'm going to take that bit out. -- Nephtes 13:50, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't know enough about Montreal bagels to do anything myself, but I don't think the article can stay as is. I say this as a Canadian and a New Yorker. Dkatzism 21:02, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I have reverted the latest additions by Lance6968 because they were promoting specific commercial establishments, which is not appropriate. Also, there were some factual inaccuracies in his version; the fact that a product is not certified kosher does not mean that it is not kosher. Many restaurants that cannot afford the high certification fees will still serve kosher food, sometimes signalling this by symbols such as a star of David in their window. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 192.30.202.19 ( talk) 21:29, 16 February 2007 (UTC).
As 132.211.195.38 has chosen to comment on one of my edits in an unrelated edit summary, I think it only appropriate that I respond here. 132.211.195.38 writes "Reference is appropriate; evidently, Victoria doesn't understand the details", which I can only assume to be a reference to an I made five days ago. Anyone caring to investigate will find that the reference followed the following statement: "Some of the traditional Montreal bagel bakeries are not certified kosher". However, the source in question makes no such assertion - in fact, bagel bakeries, whether in Montreal or elsewhere, are not mentioned. Personally, I have a feeling that the statement is correct, but have been unable to find a verifable source. I'm hoping someone else has better luck. Victoriagirl 18:09, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
"Some of the traditional Montreal bagel bakeries are not certified kosher". However, the source in question makes no such assertion - in fact, bagel bakeries, whether in Montreal or elsewhere, are not mentioned.
is false, check the Web site for yourself for a complete list of kosher certified companies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.211.195.38 ( talk • contribs)
An argument from ignorance is obviously not persuasive; for greater certainty, I'll repeat what I had written previously, if a business is not certified kosher by the Vaad Hair, (pronounced 'Vah-ad Ha-ear'), then it is not kosher, no 'if's 'and's or 'but's; again it is really not that complex. So the statement: "Though they may be kosher in practice, some of the traditional Montreal bagel bakeries are not certified as such by the Jewish Community Council of Montreal" is factually false and misleading. The food produced is either kosher or it is not; if food is prepared without Rabbinical supervision, it is not considered kosher by observant Jews; i.e., the food is presumed to fail to adhere to the requirements set out in the Bible.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.211.195.38 ( talk • contribs)
On what is or is not kosher - food is kosher if it is in accordance with jewish dietary laws. Vaad Hair inspects food establishments to see if they comply with these laws and charges the business a fee for doing so. They are not the only organization that does so, and often the sephardic and askenazic jewish communities, who have slightly different interpretations of the laws, will have separate inspectors. Anyone can take on the business of kosher certification and put his seal of approval on the food; it is simply a matter of whether other people in the community respect his ability to do so. There is no magic to the inspection that makes something kosher; it is simply a matter of having the process checked by someone who, because of his position in the community, is trusted to be able to make that kind of determination. If Vaad Hair makes a mistake and puts its seal of approval on something that was not kosher, it is still unkosher. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.30.202.21 ( talk) 15:40, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
I've just finished reading Marlene Bonneau's "Getting Married in Montreal with Two Wedding Rings", which has been cited in this article. This citation, contributed by an anonymous user at the Toronto Public Library, concerns Jewish wedding ceremonies in Montreal. It is currently provided as a "Footnote" after the following: "The relatively recent establishment of a new bakery in the Town of Mount Royal has obtained kosher certification, perhaps reflecting a return to Orthodoxy among the Jews remaining in Montreal who have not left for other cities in North America and Israel; or else reflecting a trend to increasing strictness and formalism within the Orthodox community."
I recognize that Bonneau's article is provided as a footnote, and not as a source for the sentence which it follows (indeed there is no mention of bagels, a new bakery, the Town of Mount Royal, other North American cities, or Israel). In the interests of clarity, I've placed an "original research?" tag on the sentence quoted as there is no indication as to the source of the speculations it contains. Victoriagirl 23:15, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
The Bonneau article demonstrates the proposition that the orthodox Jewish community in Montreal has adopteda stricter and more formalistic approach to Jewish tradition over the years, showing this by looking at the changes in wedding customs and ceremonies. It doesn't deal with the bagel-specific issues!
I just removed the following from the article:
"The bagel was introduced to Montreal by a baker named Engelman who arrived in the City from Russia in 1919; his descendants continue to make bagels today.{{ Fact|date=April 2007}}" (template excluded to avoid placing talk page in categories)
I removed this since it seems to me unlikely that this can be sourced. Since it would be a great addition to the article if the introduction of bagels to Montreal could be credited and sourced, I'm going to leave this here, in case someone can find a reliable source to which this can be attributed. Nihiltres( t. c. s) 19:58, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
The source was the article on bagels in French Wikipedia; unfortunately, there is no specific footnote or reference in that article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.30.202.18 ( talk) 19:01, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
I am removing the following statement for being extremely incorrect: "and bagels, sometimes pronounced with a soft "g" in French, have become a part of the broader Montreal culture." Although they are sometimes pronounced with a soft g in french, it is always as a joke...never as an actual way of pronouncing it. Lg1223 01:35, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
This article talk page was automatically added with {{ WikiProject Food and drink}} banner as it falls under Category:Food or one of its subcategories. If you find this addition an error, Kindly undo the changes and update the inappropriate categories if needed. The bot was instructed to tagg these articles upon consenus from WikiProject Food and drink. You can find the related request for tagging here . If you have concerns , please inform on the project talk page -- TinucherianBot ( talk) 15:38, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Not sure about this line: "this style of bagel is almost completely unknown in the northeastern U.S. despite its proximity to Montreal.."
Does a Montreal-style bagel producing outfit in Burlington, VT (Myer's Bagels, less than 2 hrs from Montreal) undermine or support such a claim. 'Almost completely unknown' is pretty strong... Just a thought.-- Jonashart ( talk) 03:32, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
It's been suggested (by the person @ 98.113.62.179) that this doesn't belong in the History section. I'm not so sure this is so, and I've reverted his deletion of my addition. I'm pretty much a newbie editor, so perhaps other Wikipedia editors have an idea of how we should handle this: remove the reference to the Montreal Bagel's rarity in the Northeastern US? Remove the reference to the specific bakery (which could be construed as advertising-like)? Add a section on "Geographic Spread" (this sounds silly and trivial, though). Let's brainstorm this. --Mark Asread 13:51, 8 June 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mark Asread