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Actually, Taivo, we do get this specific elsewhere. Just that usually a "language" has something to do with language, or at least religion, nationality or ethnicity, something that can be independently measured. In this case, it's merely what someone calls their language -- the only diff between a Montenegrin-speaker and a Serbian-speaker is what they've decided to call their language today. The number could change by an order of magnitude without any change on the ground. That's relatively unusual, and worth noting. — kwami ( talk) 02:04, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
Springpfühler: Please do not remove well-sourced info from the article. You say in your edit summary that the first link works but it does not say a thing about Montenegrin in Bosnia
, which is false. The
given link mentions Montenegrin under the heading "Bosnia and Herzegovina".
This link for Serbia also works perfectly fine, but
this one from the B92 archives is perhaps better. The rest of your edit summary ("everybody knows...") is best covered by
WP:OR. Wikipedia follows what is covered by
reliable sources, not what you, I or "everybody" knows. --
T*U (
talk)
15:19, 23 August 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Should Serbia be included in the infobox entry "Recognised minority language in" per this source? -- T*U ( talk) 20:42, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
introduce the Montenegrin language to official use. That means that people will be able to use Montenegrin (with its additional letters not used in the Serbian language) in their written communication with the municipality. But it also means that the municipality will be
printing materials and documents in the Montenegrin languagebeside Serbian and Hungarian.
it is never mentioned ... Montenegrin being "official language". What is then the translation of the term "zvaničan jezik", which is used twice in the article? 2) The link to the web site of the municipality goes to a page where a public announcement ("Javni oglas") is repeated twice, the second time with the heading "Javni oglas na crnogorskom jeziku", which I think translates as "Public annonuncement in Montenegrin language". Is that correct? -- T*U ( talk) 16:25, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
According to Serbian law, local authorities are obliged to introduce the language of a minority into official use if 15 per cent of the population is a member of that minority.That rather contradicts your claim about who has the right to determine what is official. -- T*U ( talk) 07:22, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
According to Serbian law, local authorities are obliged to introduce the language of a minority into official use if 15 per cent of the population is a member of that minority....Although Vrbas has so far avoided officially introducing Montenegrin as an official language, another small town in northern Serbia, Mali Idjos, declared it official in December 2010. This means that Montenegrins in Mali Idjos can get documents in their own language or communicate with local institutions in Montenegrin. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 10:54, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
First of all, I didn´t really understand the comment of Calthinus, are we perhaps trying to put Serbian on the same level as Montenegrin or Bosnian/Bosnjak (call it whatever you like)? That is of course a joke, not even a Montenegrin or Bosnian child would take it seriously. Montenegrin children would laugh out loud at it, they may have independence or whatsoever, but they are still intelligent enough to understand the difference. According to such jokes, should Serbians almost be "happy" because their language is called Serbian in Montenegro, Bosnian or Croatia? Let's remain serious, please. That would be like asserting that English people should be "happy" because in Dublin they call their local language English. Oh yes, they could have called it Dublinese indeed, that's right. Doing so, eventually English language as spoken in England could have become a variant of the Dublinese language...right? That sounds crazy, but it is exactly what some really hard-core people from Balkan sometimes try to say. But honestly, just persons who are 100% biased and thus not reliable at all could imagine something like that. I know people from everywhere in the Balkans, and I can assure that not even an average Croat, Bosnian or Albanian could seriously think so. Me, I am not from Balkans, I have no interests apart from visiting countries there, and I am not biased, everybody knows that the language is Serbian and that Bosnian and Montenegrin are inventions and no languages, at most a variety of Serbo/Croatian. We could perhaps talk about Serbian and Croatian languages, but like we talk about European and Brazilian Portuguese, for example. In Vienna, where I live, the language is officially one in the schools and at the university, and it is called BKS (Bosnisch/Kroatisch/Serbisch). The thousands of "Yugos", as they are called in Vienna, who live there, call it simply "naš (jezik)", thus "ours", meaning also that is one language. I find these names also ok, but I still call it Serbo/Croatian, simply because I like it more so. So, if some people find "politically correct" to call it in ten different names, I may disagree: I find more "politically correct" calling it with one common name and we see the results of this policy: Yugos in Vienna live in peace and brotherhood between them, they are integrated and they go along with each other really well. In almost ten years in the city, I have never ever heard of fightings or whatever between Serbs, Croats, Bosnians, etc etc. I find it thousand times better than Balkan policy, where their only purpose to give the language other names was to create separations, fights, resentment, rivality, and hatred. Some people may take advantage of it, but the majority not, and surely it is not "politically correct". We could begin to call Spanish language according to the region Columbian, Argentinian, Chilean, Mexican, we will get sooo many names more, more than 20, we could get even more than 40 if we add some regional varieties within a country, would that be "politically correct"?? Does really someone think like that seriously? I am talking of course just about SPANISH or CASTILIAN language, not about other languages of Spain which are not Spanish and are totally separated languages. Same in the ex-Yu, that is just about SERBIAN language, or SERBO/CROATIAN, other languages like Slovenian or Macedonian of course are not included. Serbian may be called in other names, but it still remains Serbian language, no matter if in Serbia, in Bosnia or Montenegro. And in South Serbia they also speak Thorlakian, which is different from Shtokavijan and thus from Serbo/Croatian language, but they also speak Serbian, so it has to be mentioned, of course.
Anyways, sorry, this was all off-topic. Coming back to Mali Iđoš, you can put again Montenegrin if you like, I have nothing against it. I just have doubts about Montenegrin being "officially recognized" because, as I explained, giving you the right to speak a language or variant with the authorities does not necessarily and authomatically mean that it is "officially recognized". In the page of the Municipality of Mali Iđoš I have not found anything about it, and the page is in Serbian and Hungarian, but not in "Montenegrin"...probably also because there would not even be a single word different. And in the official page of Vojvodina, I have found a list of officially recognized languages (Serbian, Hungarian, Romanian, Slovak, Ruthenian, Croatian (all official languages of Vojvodina)), but Montenegrin is not mentioned: http://www.vojvodina.gov.rs/en/autonomous-province-vojvodina Anyways, if we put Montenegrin again, it shoud be as a minority language, just as it was before. Montenegrins are just 16.26% of the population of Mali Iđoš, that's clearly a minority, they are less than the Serbs and much less than the Hungarian majority. -- Springpfühler ( talk) 21:20, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
"Lower level" is not my choice of words, Bosnian and Montenegrin are both ijekavian (and shtokavian) variants or dialects of Serbian, there is nothing bad in it. Then, what is linguistically a variant or dialect can also be named "official language" of a country for political purposes, it is evident. I am quite clear, the language is definitely just one (there can't be a single doubt about it) and its name is Serbian. At most, Serbo/Croatian. Other names would be pure fantasy. BKS, its official name in Vienna, may also be an acceptable choice, surely "politically correct" (that's why it was chosen in Austria, having Vienna so many thousands of people coming from the former Yugoslavia). But I find Serbo/Croatian, or just Serbian, linguistically more correct. All the rest are inventions made with the purpose of creating divisions and foment hatred. I am speaking from a linguistically point of view, of course. I am not from Balkan and really not into these Balkan rivalities and nonsense, but I am a linguist. "Bosnian" and "Montenegrin" do not exist as languages, at least not linguistically, absolutely not. Politically yes, as I just said, they do exist, obviously for the purposes I have mentioned above. But that is not the topic of this specific discussion.-- Springpfühler ( talk) 00:24, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
Yes, we are talking about Shtokavian, the basis of standard Serbian and Croatian, or Serbo/Croatian, languages, not about something else. That is one language and this is its name, later on some people wanted to call their regional variety with their own names (Bosnian and Montenegrin) and began to say these varieties or dialects are supposed to be "standard languages" of their countries. Everybody could easily do like that, everywhere in the world (Bavarians for Bavarian language, Americans or Canadians for American or Canadian language, Andalusians for Andalusian language, Kosovars for Kosovar language, Romans for Roman language, and thousands of etc.), but it does not give authomatically the right to call a variety a "language" from a linguistic point of view; linguistically speaking we know what can be called a language and what not, but it is true that sometimes politics play a major role in it (we cannot assert that, for example, Galician is more "language" than Napolitan, of course not, even if in Italy they normally call Napolitan a "dialect", it is a language without any doubt). But in the case of Bosnian and Montenegrin, I think ALL linguistics agree that they remain mere variants, without almost any special feature at all (two invented letters in the case of Montenegrin, some H here and there plus some mainly invented "Arabic" loanwords in the case of Bosnian). Linguistically it is still one language with two main varieties, Serbian and Croatian, thus Serbo/Croatian. If we call this language with other names, that is just for political reasons, but those names are still wrong, though. Politically speaking it is different, then yes, we can call it in many names as one may like. On a political or social level, none of these names is supposed to be "higher" than another, that´s right. Nevertheless, prestige or acknowledgment may still differ, here too. For instance, you can study Serbian, or Croatian, or both together, at pretty much all major universities in Europe, at least, whereas I strongly doubt you can do it for Bosnian or Montenegrin, you know. And you will hardly find a dictionary of these two varieties translated to any major European language.-- Springpfühler ( talk) 10:15, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
Our policy elsewhere -- as it should be here -- is a surrender of science to politics.
I was making an edit summary, and accidentally published the edit without finishing the summary.
Bosnia and Herzegovina's legal system doesn't recognise "minority languages", so Montenegrin couldn't be recognised as such. Moreover, the source used for such a claim didn't actually support it in any sentence (Montenegrin wasn't even mentioned by the source, nor the source talked about the situation in Bosnia and Herzegovina). Governor Sheng ( talk) 18:41, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
Index
|
|||
This page has archives. Sections older than 100 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 4 sections are present. |
Actually, Taivo, we do get this specific elsewhere. Just that usually a "language" has something to do with language, or at least religion, nationality or ethnicity, something that can be independently measured. In this case, it's merely what someone calls their language -- the only diff between a Montenegrin-speaker and a Serbian-speaker is what they've decided to call their language today. The number could change by an order of magnitude without any change on the ground. That's relatively unusual, and worth noting. — kwami ( talk) 02:04, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
Springpfühler: Please do not remove well-sourced info from the article. You say in your edit summary that the first link works but it does not say a thing about Montenegrin in Bosnia
, which is false. The
given link mentions Montenegrin under the heading "Bosnia and Herzegovina".
This link for Serbia also works perfectly fine, but
this one from the B92 archives is perhaps better. The rest of your edit summary ("everybody knows...") is best covered by
WP:OR. Wikipedia follows what is covered by
reliable sources, not what you, I or "everybody" knows. --
T*U (
talk)
15:19, 23 August 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Should Serbia be included in the infobox entry "Recognised minority language in" per this source? -- T*U ( talk) 20:42, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
introduce the Montenegrin language to official use. That means that people will be able to use Montenegrin (with its additional letters not used in the Serbian language) in their written communication with the municipality. But it also means that the municipality will be
printing materials and documents in the Montenegrin languagebeside Serbian and Hungarian.
it is never mentioned ... Montenegrin being "official language". What is then the translation of the term "zvaničan jezik", which is used twice in the article? 2) The link to the web site of the municipality goes to a page where a public announcement ("Javni oglas") is repeated twice, the second time with the heading "Javni oglas na crnogorskom jeziku", which I think translates as "Public annonuncement in Montenegrin language". Is that correct? -- T*U ( talk) 16:25, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
According to Serbian law, local authorities are obliged to introduce the language of a minority into official use if 15 per cent of the population is a member of that minority.That rather contradicts your claim about who has the right to determine what is official. -- T*U ( talk) 07:22, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
According to Serbian law, local authorities are obliged to introduce the language of a minority into official use if 15 per cent of the population is a member of that minority....Although Vrbas has so far avoided officially introducing Montenegrin as an official language, another small town in northern Serbia, Mali Idjos, declared it official in December 2010. This means that Montenegrins in Mali Idjos can get documents in their own language or communicate with local institutions in Montenegrin. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 10:54, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
First of all, I didn´t really understand the comment of Calthinus, are we perhaps trying to put Serbian on the same level as Montenegrin or Bosnian/Bosnjak (call it whatever you like)? That is of course a joke, not even a Montenegrin or Bosnian child would take it seriously. Montenegrin children would laugh out loud at it, they may have independence or whatsoever, but they are still intelligent enough to understand the difference. According to such jokes, should Serbians almost be "happy" because their language is called Serbian in Montenegro, Bosnian or Croatia? Let's remain serious, please. That would be like asserting that English people should be "happy" because in Dublin they call their local language English. Oh yes, they could have called it Dublinese indeed, that's right. Doing so, eventually English language as spoken in England could have become a variant of the Dublinese language...right? That sounds crazy, but it is exactly what some really hard-core people from Balkan sometimes try to say. But honestly, just persons who are 100% biased and thus not reliable at all could imagine something like that. I know people from everywhere in the Balkans, and I can assure that not even an average Croat, Bosnian or Albanian could seriously think so. Me, I am not from Balkans, I have no interests apart from visiting countries there, and I am not biased, everybody knows that the language is Serbian and that Bosnian and Montenegrin are inventions and no languages, at most a variety of Serbo/Croatian. We could perhaps talk about Serbian and Croatian languages, but like we talk about European and Brazilian Portuguese, for example. In Vienna, where I live, the language is officially one in the schools and at the university, and it is called BKS (Bosnisch/Kroatisch/Serbisch). The thousands of "Yugos", as they are called in Vienna, who live there, call it simply "naš (jezik)", thus "ours", meaning also that is one language. I find these names also ok, but I still call it Serbo/Croatian, simply because I like it more so. So, if some people find "politically correct" to call it in ten different names, I may disagree: I find more "politically correct" calling it with one common name and we see the results of this policy: Yugos in Vienna live in peace and brotherhood between them, they are integrated and they go along with each other really well. In almost ten years in the city, I have never ever heard of fightings or whatever between Serbs, Croats, Bosnians, etc etc. I find it thousand times better than Balkan policy, where their only purpose to give the language other names was to create separations, fights, resentment, rivality, and hatred. Some people may take advantage of it, but the majority not, and surely it is not "politically correct". We could begin to call Spanish language according to the region Columbian, Argentinian, Chilean, Mexican, we will get sooo many names more, more than 20, we could get even more than 40 if we add some regional varieties within a country, would that be "politically correct"?? Does really someone think like that seriously? I am talking of course just about SPANISH or CASTILIAN language, not about other languages of Spain which are not Spanish and are totally separated languages. Same in the ex-Yu, that is just about SERBIAN language, or SERBO/CROATIAN, other languages like Slovenian or Macedonian of course are not included. Serbian may be called in other names, but it still remains Serbian language, no matter if in Serbia, in Bosnia or Montenegro. And in South Serbia they also speak Thorlakian, which is different from Shtokavijan and thus from Serbo/Croatian language, but they also speak Serbian, so it has to be mentioned, of course.
Anyways, sorry, this was all off-topic. Coming back to Mali Iđoš, you can put again Montenegrin if you like, I have nothing against it. I just have doubts about Montenegrin being "officially recognized" because, as I explained, giving you the right to speak a language or variant with the authorities does not necessarily and authomatically mean that it is "officially recognized". In the page of the Municipality of Mali Iđoš I have not found anything about it, and the page is in Serbian and Hungarian, but not in "Montenegrin"...probably also because there would not even be a single word different. And in the official page of Vojvodina, I have found a list of officially recognized languages (Serbian, Hungarian, Romanian, Slovak, Ruthenian, Croatian (all official languages of Vojvodina)), but Montenegrin is not mentioned: http://www.vojvodina.gov.rs/en/autonomous-province-vojvodina Anyways, if we put Montenegrin again, it shoud be as a minority language, just as it was before. Montenegrins are just 16.26% of the population of Mali Iđoš, that's clearly a minority, they are less than the Serbs and much less than the Hungarian majority. -- Springpfühler ( talk) 21:20, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
"Lower level" is not my choice of words, Bosnian and Montenegrin are both ijekavian (and shtokavian) variants or dialects of Serbian, there is nothing bad in it. Then, what is linguistically a variant or dialect can also be named "official language" of a country for political purposes, it is evident. I am quite clear, the language is definitely just one (there can't be a single doubt about it) and its name is Serbian. At most, Serbo/Croatian. Other names would be pure fantasy. BKS, its official name in Vienna, may also be an acceptable choice, surely "politically correct" (that's why it was chosen in Austria, having Vienna so many thousands of people coming from the former Yugoslavia). But I find Serbo/Croatian, or just Serbian, linguistically more correct. All the rest are inventions made with the purpose of creating divisions and foment hatred. I am speaking from a linguistically point of view, of course. I am not from Balkan and really not into these Balkan rivalities and nonsense, but I am a linguist. "Bosnian" and "Montenegrin" do not exist as languages, at least not linguistically, absolutely not. Politically yes, as I just said, they do exist, obviously for the purposes I have mentioned above. But that is not the topic of this specific discussion.-- Springpfühler ( talk) 00:24, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
Yes, we are talking about Shtokavian, the basis of standard Serbian and Croatian, or Serbo/Croatian, languages, not about something else. That is one language and this is its name, later on some people wanted to call their regional variety with their own names (Bosnian and Montenegrin) and began to say these varieties or dialects are supposed to be "standard languages" of their countries. Everybody could easily do like that, everywhere in the world (Bavarians for Bavarian language, Americans or Canadians for American or Canadian language, Andalusians for Andalusian language, Kosovars for Kosovar language, Romans for Roman language, and thousands of etc.), but it does not give authomatically the right to call a variety a "language" from a linguistic point of view; linguistically speaking we know what can be called a language and what not, but it is true that sometimes politics play a major role in it (we cannot assert that, for example, Galician is more "language" than Napolitan, of course not, even if in Italy they normally call Napolitan a "dialect", it is a language without any doubt). But in the case of Bosnian and Montenegrin, I think ALL linguistics agree that they remain mere variants, without almost any special feature at all (two invented letters in the case of Montenegrin, some H here and there plus some mainly invented "Arabic" loanwords in the case of Bosnian). Linguistically it is still one language with two main varieties, Serbian and Croatian, thus Serbo/Croatian. If we call this language with other names, that is just for political reasons, but those names are still wrong, though. Politically speaking it is different, then yes, we can call it in many names as one may like. On a political or social level, none of these names is supposed to be "higher" than another, that´s right. Nevertheless, prestige or acknowledgment may still differ, here too. For instance, you can study Serbian, or Croatian, or both together, at pretty much all major universities in Europe, at least, whereas I strongly doubt you can do it for Bosnian or Montenegrin, you know. And you will hardly find a dictionary of these two varieties translated to any major European language.-- Springpfühler ( talk) 10:15, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
Our policy elsewhere -- as it should be here -- is a surrender of science to politics.
I was making an edit summary, and accidentally published the edit without finishing the summary.
Bosnia and Herzegovina's legal system doesn't recognise "minority languages", so Montenegrin couldn't be recognised as such. Moreover, the source used for such a claim didn't actually support it in any sentence (Montenegrin wasn't even mentioned by the source, nor the source talked about the situation in Bosnia and Herzegovina). Governor Sheng ( talk) 18:41, 22 October 2022 (UTC)