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Link on an article on the census: (gardianul: in Romanian) Bogdan | Talk 12:35, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Actually we speak about the same language: romanian. But the russians wanted to make a difference hoping that in this way the russification of the romanian part of Moldova will be russian. This is absurd since we talk about the same nation and people who have the same language.
Could do with more on the dictionary. Does it try to exaggarete the differences? etc.
Morwen -
Talk 21:22, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
User:ChiLIBerserker: Moldovan is identical to Romanian. I speak Moldovan, and it is Romanian. Daco-Romanian by its definition includes Moldovan vernaculars, Ardeal vernaculars, et cetera. At least study the languages yourself before you make those kind of edits. There is no debate in the linguistic community, and the name of this article itself violates NPOV and violates scientific accuracy. Decius 10:52, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
I see that this article presents a problem that is awkward for Wikipedia. I'm not trying to push a false view, I'm just presenting reality, uncut and straight up. Decius 11:54, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
Even to refer to Moldovan as a "dialect" is inaccurate: it is barely even a dialect; is the Brooklyn speech a dialect of English? No. Moldovan is not even a dialect, let alone a language. I don't know who are the fucking idiots who are responsible for this false "language code", but I'm guessing they are Russian Soviet scum. Decius 12:25, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
I know all that, yes. I know Moldavian is identical to Romanian, yes .. just that as a dictionary, we shouldn't be taking sides politically for or against anyone, no matter how dumb a political side may be. I quite understand what you're saying .. just that with it being a "controversial" issue, also if it shouldn't be, we should say that linguists say the languages are identical .. not that WE say the languages are identical. That might come off as POV, also if it isn't. User:ChiLIBerserker
A proper formula has to be found here. Improper formulas will be edited back & forth. We have to find "language we can agree on" in the phrase. Decius 13:17, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
Seems decent enough like it is now. My beef was with the word "identical" .. as someone that has spent some time studying languages and dialects, I would never use that word in linguistics just because NO two human beings communicate in the same way, even when speaking the same language. Trained linguists can usually deduce which village or valley a person speaking language can come from .. so saying that Moldovan is "identical" to Romanian just can't be accurate, also if it is the same language. I wouldn't call the German spoken in my district of Vienna, where I currently live, identical to the german spoken in the neighbouring district. But I'm quite fine with the way it is now :D .. I quite accept that Moldovan is Romanian that has been split off from the language for silly political reasons and that it would make about as much sense as going to France and deciding that everyone south of the Seine doesn't speak French but a random other invented language. Just that in linguistics, claiming something to be "identical" doesn't come off very scientificly or neutral. - User:ChiLIBerserker 21:56, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
Decius, daca esti din RM, ar trebui ca sa preiei administratia Wikipediei Moldovenesti. In momentul de fata ea este tinuta de un Rus anti-Semit care se da a fi Jumate-Evreu( desi denegreaza Holocaustul) si Jumate-Moldovean. Dar el nici nu vorbeste Romaneste si traduce de pe internet din Engleza in Romana dupa care scrie versiunea Romana( bine inteles cu greseli) in alfabetul chirilic. NU este NPOV ca un administrator sa scrie intr-o limba pe care nici nu o stie. Du-te la discutia de pe pagina principala a Wikipediei Moldovenesti ca sa vezi despre ce vorbesc. Incercam ca sa votam aceasta wikipedie ori ptr. a fi data unui nou administrator ori ptr. a fi stearsa.
Cu respect, Duca
Duca, mulţumesc pentru onoarea care m-ai accordato, dar pentru cǎ sânt prea ocupat cu alte proiecte, acum nu pot sǎ accept propunerea. Cu respect, Decius 16:22, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
In 1989, when Moldova started using the Romanian Latin alphabet, they used the same verision as the one used in Romania at the time. The change came in Romania only a few years later.
However, the official version is not always respected, and this is true in both countries. For example, some Romanian newspapers use the old version ( Evenimentul Zilei, Academia Catavencu among others), while some Moldovan newspapers use the new version. ( Accente, Garda, etc) bogdan ʤjuʃkə | Talk 06:57, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Previously, the intro said that Moldovan was spoken by some number of people in Romania and the Vojvodina "under the name of Romanian." This is absurd. If one were to define Moldovan, it would have to be as "the Romanian language as spoken in Moldova" or else as "the language of the people of Moldova," or whatever. Even though this language is the same as Romanian, it is absurd to include Romanian speakers in a census of Moldovan. john k 9 July 2005 00:08 (UTC)
Um, no, not really jonny. I don't understand why that is so. What you just said does not make sense.
Mihaitza 9 July 2005 06:35 (UTC)
John, good luck in your attempts to get certain people to "understand". I can symphatize with you, as you and/or some of yours have resembling pattern in certain other topics. :) 217.140.193.123 9 July 2005 06:50 (UTC)
Node you got your sick little wikipedia in "moldavian". Aren't you happy? Do you have to come here too and turn this article into something out of a communist newspaper, as well? Can you at least leave this page the way it is?
Duca 01:03, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
Transnistria is (de jure at least) part of Moldova. That's why it still has Moldovan as official language. I'm sure that if it wouldn't be, than Moldovan, wouldn't be one of its official languages. You may add a note to Moldova in the "official language of" section, and say that in Transnistria the official script is chyrillic. -- Danutz
Node, I am gonna leave it for now since you seem to have restored a version that is a little bit better then the one before but I did change the part about the restoration of Moldovan into a "very similar script to that of Romanian". I only did this because it was factually wrong. Before 1992 Romanian was written with sint and with the i. Since Moldova made the language law before 1992, it used the "sint" version instead of the "sunt" version which was applicable in Romania only after 1992. This is why I changed it to "restored the latin script in the pre-1992 Romanian version". If you do not believe me you can research this and find out that I am telling the truth.
Another thing though, that bothers me, is the part about "vseo eu m-am dus". It really doesn't make sense at all from any gramatical prespective : russian or romanian. Do you have a source for that? And one more thing, the part with spoken romanian in moldova being more purist and written being not so purist, I would also like a source for those as well. And let's not repeat all your russian sources from the moldovan wiki discussion. Those are just forums and the "romanian-russian mix" was only observed among russian-speakers, not romanian-speakers. I would like a real source. Thnx
Duca 22:40, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
Fair enough. It is the Russian speakers who use that. However that does not mean that in Moldova Russian-speakers use a hybrid-language to communicate. Maybe that example of "vseo eu m-am dus" just comes from someone that does not know proper Romanian.
In any case, please leave the "pre-1992 Romanian version of the Latin script" alone. I just explained to you above that before 1992, the Romanian script was the same as Moldova's now. The moldovans adopted the new language laws in 1989 so that's 3 years before the Romanians changed a little their script. At the time it wasn't a variation of the Romanian script but the actual script used in Romania prior to 1992.
Duca 05:42, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
I see. Well, based on what you have told me, this is present among Russians and Ukrainians or people of mixed marriages, but not Romanians in Moldova. But this is not really pertinent to the article at hand: "moldovan language". We should make another article that touches on this subject and even expands on it.
Another thing. Many Romanians who live in North America use a sort of hybrid kind of language which contains many english or englisized words(especially arond the town of Boyan, in Aleberta,Canada); if you ask them what language they speak at home, they won't tell you they speak a hybrid of Romanian and English, they will tell you they speak Romanian. I think this case is very similar to the Russians and Ukrainians in RM. What language do the latter claim they speak: Romanian or Russian/Ukrainian.
Also what are your academic sources of the word "crasavic". In any case I do not think that this article is being NPOV right now. These little additions have to stop Node, because it's very clear that you have a little agenda here. Let's not start the same discussion that we had on the moldo wikipedia. The point of the slang and words like "crasavic", etc. etc. these are by no means pertinent to the article. Even if what you are saing is true, they are just regionalisms of Romanian and in any corner of Romania you will find similar regionalisms. Hungarians in Romania, probably use a "creole" like language as well but that has no place in an ecyclopedia either. It's pretty clear that all that your little additions do, is to make Romanian and Moldovan seem more different, rather then similar. It's pretty sad that even today, there are people in the world that continue the Stalinist theory of a "sepparate Moldovan language" and how young people have adopted this creole like language in between Romanian and Russian. Ever since 1940, people in Moldova have been told about the "new language of the young"(which existed only in the sick minds of Stalin and his loyal followers[some being alive to this day]). I am going to have to please ask you to either stop putting these things in or if you make another change next time, present ample academic sourses to back them up. Otherwise I am going to take this to someone higher in authority.
Duca 13:20, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
What is all this with "it may be true but it doesn't belong in an encyclopedia"? You say the page is POV right now... the stuff about slang usage is FACT. It does not say "It makes it more different! See?!? It's a different language! I told you!!!!!". Any higher authority you take this to will disagree -- if it is a fact, it is OK, in this sense. And it's true that slang usage of Slavic words is much higher in Rep. Moldova than in Romania. -- Node
Node, it's like we're speaking two different languages, man. All I am saying, is that you need a good, reliable source for that, before you stick it in. Any higher authority would agree with me there.
Duca 22:26, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, I corrected myself, on this discussion page, and I wrote "de jure": Transnistria is (de jure at least) part of Moldova. That's why it still has Moldovan as official language. I'm sure that if it wouldn't be, than Moldovan, wouldn't be one of its official languages. You may add a note to Moldova in the "official language of" section, and say that in Transnistria the official script is chyrillic. So, I don't see information in the Somali language, about the fact that Somali is official in Somalia and Somaliland (as Somaliland is part of Somalia yet). Or that Armenian language is official in Armenia and the Nagorno-Karabakh separatist republic in Azerbaidjan. In the Russian language, i added once Transnistria, and it was expelled from there. Currently Transnistria has the same status as Gagauzia. Why don't you add Gagauzia? Crimea in Ukraine has a similar status. Why don't you also add Crimea in the Ukrainian langauge article? Do you even see how POV you are? -- Danutz
Node_ue, I am asking you to bring credible references for the paragraph about the "creole". If you won't, then it falls into the Wikipedia:No original research policy and that paragraph has to be deleted from Wikipedia. bogdan ʤjuʃkə | Talk 08:42, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
"Original reserach" policy only applies when:
The main purpose of the policy is to exclude crackpot theories, not things which are factual. For example, it is not meant to exclude an article on Ablzodsfpsdf language just because the language has never been written about anywhere else, rather, it is mean to exclude text on another article saying that "Ablzodsfpsdf, although now spoken in Africa, was originally spoken by South American cannibals who brought it over in 900 BC", or that "most squirrels can speak fluent German". Just because something has never been written about before, does not automatically make it original research.
The original point of the NOR policy was actually to keep non-experts from touting their crackpot physics theories on Wikipedia, where they do not belong. How many of the phrases on Common phrases in different languages do you think you can find a source for??? Can you find a source for every single sentence in Romanian language? -- Node
I am confused - information which falls under the category of "common sense" is not original research. Discussion of a supposed Creole that nobody has written about before is clearly original research. john k 21:12, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
These guys have a point Node. On another subject, does anyone know if the protests of 2oo2 against the "obligatory Russian language in schools" was successful in making the government back down or not? Domnu Goie 23:52, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
Let me tell you, there is something different between you and me. You hate people. You hate Russians. I do not. If my viewpoint were the opposite of yours, I would hate people from Romania but I don't. Sure, many if not most of them disagree with me, but I don't think they're rude or nasty like you think about Russians. Romania has done some pretty objectionable things from time to time, but I don't hate them for it. Unionist rallies in the 90s in Chisinau are a bitter memory for me (I wasn't there, but it was a big deal to my family, since my parents etc were born there, so I heard a lot about it), and for many Moldovans who would like to put that behind them. Everyone in Moldova except the most extreme of the extremists seem to have come to terms with the fact that Russian and Ukrainian heritage people are not leaving anytime soon (those that will leave, already left when Moldova gained independence), and that both groups are going to have to live together for quite some time. Most Romanians however seem to think that Russian and Ukrainian heritage people in Moldova are going to be expelled. Most Romanians seem to think that Romanian heritage people in Moldova hate Russians. The unionist people (generally only unionists though) seem to feel that the political battle they are waging for union with RM is a battle which is felt in the hearts of all Moldovans. This is trash, only a minority of Moldovans favour a union with Romania. Moldova has many political, social, and economic problems which it needs to sort out before it will even seriously consider a union with Romania. There is also the problem of the large Russian and Ukrainian minority -- will they maintain their rights in a united Romania, or will they be forgotten about by the authorities in Bucaresti? And what about politics? Current politics in Moldova are surely incompatible with those in Romania. Yet, you romanticists fantasise about how wonderful it will be to have one nation with your Romanian brothers in Moldova, and somehow you think they all want the same thing. You need to be reacquainted with reality. -- Node
My poor Node, how little you understand us.
Let me enlighten you, my little child( albeit I hardly know where to start). Well for one thing, you really got the whole union thing wrong. Hardly anyone of us seriously conceives a union right now, at least a union in the sense that is understood by those who compare it with the 1918 union. Even IF a union would occur it would most likely be a confederal and loose one, but even that is very very long term.
Second of all, in the way you seem to argue your point, you actually DO SHOW that you DO HATE US ROMANIANS because you ultimately accuse "OUR LITTLE CROWD" of hating RUSSIANS. Let me make something very clear. Most of us have nothing against the regular Russian. The regular IVAN lived a life much like his Romanian/Moldovan counterpart( in other words a life under communism and terror). It is this Russian that we have a lot in common with. What we do hate, is the communists Russians. The ones that were implanted in Moldova after 1940. We make a very clear distinction between the Russians and Ukrainians who lived in Moldova prior to 1940 and have been born in that land and those who were send over by Stalin to persecute and terrorize the natives(regardless of their nationality). On top of that, lets not forget that in 1940 the native-Russians of Moldova(prior to 1940) were not that happy that Bessarabia(Moldova) was being occupied by the USSR.
You seem to talk about an "Imperialist Romania" that wants to CONQUER the Republic of Moldova and take all the Russians and Ukrainaians and kill them all or something. This in my opinion just shows how much YOU are, IN FACT, disconnected from reality. Did the Hungarians in Transilvania dissapear? Did their rights vanish? I would say they got more rights since right now their political party has been in government for the past 9 years. If some 1.5 mil. Hungarians have survived and managed to increase their rights, why would that be so hard for 200.000 Russians and 300.000 Ukrainaians?
I would go on and argue but I think I have pointed out the main flaws in your thinking, which by the way betrays the fact that behind the whole charade with the "Moldovan Language", "Moldovan Wikipedia", etc. etc. , there is a hidden hate for Romanians (since like I said again you believe that all Romanians hate all Russians). To put it bluntly, it is because of this totally negative, even racist mentality of yours that I think you should not be contributing on these matters.
Domnu Goie 07:53, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
Node for your own good buddy, stop talking cuz you are only making yourself look worst.
First of all the demonstrations in moldova in the early 90s were not about "pack your bags and go home" like some neo-communists like to claim. I don't know if you are a neo-communist yourself or if you just heard this from neo-communists but the demonstrations were for Moldovan-self determination. Hundreds of tousands of people took part and it was supported by a lot of people in mOldova.
Second of all, you say that "you can still discriminate without hating". NODE MAN! Just the fact that you, yourself aknowledge that it may be possible that you may discriminate while not hating( WHICH BY THE WAY MAKES NO SENSE) makes you an unacceptable contributor here.
Once again, you don't know me or "US" at all, Node.
Domnu Goie 23:26, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Mihai, do you dispute that contact linguistic phenomena occur in Moldova? The recent version of the article doesn't try to classify them as before, but rather leaves it open, with a suggestion that it may be bilingual code switching.
The examples I gave are not from a Russian manuscript, they are from real life. While there may not be previous literature about contact phenomena in Moldova (at least not which you consider credible since you hate Russians and think everything they write must be lies), there is literature about bilingual code switching. If you read that article, you will find that it is relatively common in situations where both participants in a conversation are bilingual, regardless of languages involved. Thus, it's not a separate theory or even a stretch to say that it occurs in Moldova -- it occurs in nearly every country on Earth, in any large bilingual community.
Just because your nationalism tells you to delete anything which suggests anything about RM may be even a little bit different, doesn't mean it's right. Do you have justification against these examples? Again, they're not from Soviet literature.
Node 06:20, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
Node, the infobox should be removed because you need to understand that Moldovan is not a "real" language and hence does not deserve an infobox. This article is more about describing the term "Moldovan language" than the actual language known as Moldovan. Therefore, it doesn't need an infobox. And even if it were to have an infobox, it is absolutely absurd to assert that Moldovan is the 36th most spoken language in the world with speakers all over Romania, Vojvodina, etc. Look at Montenegrin language and see that it also doesn't have an infobox. Again - Moldovan is a controversial term, it is not a real language and this article should only seek to explain what the term refers to, why it arose, and also the minor differences between Romanian and so-called Moldovan. As User:John Kenney put it, "The Moldovan language [under that name] is not spoken by people in Romania and the Vojvodina". For me, and I think for the majority of Romanians, it is insulting to suggest that the language I speak is called "Moldovan". Romania had nothing to do with the USSR and all that, and so just because of a Stalinist policy on calling the language "Moldovan", why should I now accept that my native language can also be called "Moldovan"? The would be like the Australian government calling their language "Australian" and saying in the article that "Australian is the most studied language worldwide and the international language of communication, Australian is the official language of the USA, UK and tens of other countries... oh, just that it's called English everywhere else". You can't say I haven't compromised, or that I haven't understanding or anything, but I think you're taking it too far now. By the way, the interwiki code for the Moldovan Wikipedia should be "молдовеняскэ (чириликэ)" not just "молдовеняскэ". I don't understand why it was changed from Moldoveana to "молдовеняскэ" and not to ""молдовеняскэ (чириликэ)" Ronline 07:11, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
You need documentation for what I erased. I erased it beacuse of a lack of documentation. If I say that I saw a big huge monster in a Scottish lake and I put this information on wikipedia as if it was a true fact, then it will be erased in 2 minutes since I have no proper documentation to prove it. Personal real-life accounts do not count. You need a legit. source.
The second aspect which I wanted to point out, Node, is for you to stop making new accounts. Let's all try to use just one. Creating new accounts and making it look like you are not the only one who thinks that the Moldovan is a language by itself, does not make you right.
Now I would very politely ask you to stop generalizing and discriminating. Goie is right, you know. By generalizing so much you will only get people irritated with you, not agreeing with you. You should follow your own example about the "flies and the honey". I noticed you do discriminate quite alot. I have never expressed my hate towards Russians here or in mo.wiki. I hate the concept of a "moldovan language" since it does not exist. I do not hate an entire people. I am not the one that called you a fag, Stalinist, etc. etc. Your homosexual orientation does not concern me. I am a libertarian and I have nothing against gays.
I just want you to know that if we cannot have a mature discussion here, I will really ask for this page to be locked.
Lastly, I will like to point out here that you agreed that you would make the moldovan versions in Moldoveneaska(Kirilika). You have not. This means that the deal which we all reached after the vote on jul 10, has been broken. We need a new vote and I have already reserved the right(as explained by Ronline) to call for one 45 days after the last vote. Mihaitza 01:20, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
Hi Ronline, I would like to explain my reversion of your edits. As Chris Sundita noted, his edits were an attempt at compromise, but you edited them right after and basically rolled back his changes without an explanation. Thus, I basically reverted to the last version which had been explained.
I think I agree with regards to Moldovan being spoken in Romania, but it's a difficult choice and will require some more thought on my part. -- Node 22:00, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
Talking about Dari and Farsi is probably a troll.
You don't need examples to show the obvious -- Romanian and Modovan are the same language, and this has to be said clearly.
Maybe you want to call it Moldovan Romanian (like American English?). Nevertheless, there clearly is a problem with this article. There should be an explanation saying that Moldovan is basically Romanian, with 1. the problem of the politics, which invented a moldovan language 2. the russian influence, and those "creole" expressions.
The article should start with this, because this is the most important problem concerning the language. It's not a regular language, you see...
While it is my personal opinion that spelling differences have no significant effect in this case, what is "significant" or not is 100% subjective.
I may view the independence of Moldova from the USSR as a "significant" event in the history of the world, but another person may say it's not significant. I may say that a hurricane caused "major" damage, but who has seen much worse might say it was not major. I might say that Celine Dion is a very important person, while someone else might say she is not important.
This is not the first time your group has attempted to squeeze in words which are subjective in ANY situation, claiming that in this particular situation they are fact rather than opinion.
I did not say "code switching makes a significant difference between language in Romania and language in Moldova". I could've said that, but I didn't because it is NOT OBJECTIVE, but rather entirely SUBJECTIVE.
Do you understand this concept now?? -- Node 05:23, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
(Thank you for the gentlemanly tone; moved the references and added comment in the section below -- Gutza 11:24, 5 August 2005 (UTC))
-- Node 09:27, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Hope you don't mind me splitting the references in a different section, I want to comment on them before I start hacking on the article. (I copied your sig above too, so we can continue to follow who said what.)
All references below provided by Node 09:13, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
I have to go to lunch, I'll be back. -- Gutza 11:06, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
So, let's talk on positive statements instead of negatives. What are your actual claims regarding Moldovan? You seem to insist it's a dialect in the references (just as American vs. British), but you push for a distinct language in the article? So where do you really stand?! -- Gutza 13:36, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Ok, let's talk on your claims, and include or remove stuff from the article based on the conclusion we reach here.
-- Gutza 22:26, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
You generalized the statement. And that's consistent with your acknowledged convictions. While I fully agree that some teens today may speak a creole, that's not even remotely the same with your "The spoken [Moldovan] language [...] could be called a creole since it is the native speech for some" -- you were careful to include "for some" at the end of the statement, but the meaning of the phrase is a sweeping generalization. -- Gutza 21:56, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Please, please, don't go on saying "have you been there?" or "have you been born there?" or "do you have relatives there?" -- it insults people's intelligence. Especially when immediately after "have you been there?" you come back with "all the reference books make it clear that". Now, don't draw the sword yet: you're probably right about this one. (This doesn't negate what I just said, the fact that you happen to be right about this one in particular --and that I acknowledge it instead of fighting it blindly -- doesn't mean that my observations are wrong.) But sorry, I'll revert the edit we were talking in the previous paragraph -- please rephrase it more sensibly instead of re-revering. -- Gutza 21:56, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
P.S. Gagauzia and Transnistria I can agree with, that's consistent with what I have read so far, but I'll temper down your statement about Chisinau, I don't think that's right, although I've read statements both ways. -- Gutza 21:58, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
P.P.S. You keep on forgetting to address your undocumented vandalism of the 2nd note -- care to explain which specific statements you don't agree with? -- Gutza 21:59, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Hello, John! Please note the current "Note #2" in the article as well (I acknowledge that the current version of that note is my version, and it's disputed by Node, see article history; Node didn't clarify the reason why he's constantly deleting the latter half of it though): the "minor ortographical difference" itself is a symbolic one, being the result of formal regulations, and not the result of how the language formed and/or evolved. Regarding the accent, you are right, there is a specific accent in Rep. Moldova -- the only hole in using this argument to convince anyone that Moldovan exists as a language is that the accent is uniform across the entire region called Moldavia (see map in that article for a visual cue on why that happens to be so). I'll grant it to Node that in Rep. Moldova they may happen to use more Russian loan words and more frequent code switching with Russian than we do in Romania, but that doesn't change the language, it's a natural effect of the region's history between the 1920's and the 1990's (Romanian deportation+encouraged Russian migration+forced Cyrillic alphabet+forced Russification+Stalin inventing a language). However, that didn't really succeed in creating a language, it just succeeded in making an ethnic injustice. -- Gutza 00:17, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
Of course I grant you that in RM they happen to use more Russian loanwords in Romanian. Even more, I'll also grant you that in the Western part of the country they use more Magyar loanwords in Romanian, just like in the South-Eastern part they use more Turkish loanwords in Romanian. I'm only curious why we need to call the Romanian spoken in the Eastern part by a different name, when similar processes with similar effects in the other regions don't call for such a distinction. -- Gutza 14:18, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
So, you're basically saying that
Surely you notice the circularity of this argumentation: "I'll prove that X exists by citing books that use the term X in order to prove it exists" -- replace X with "UFO", or "Bigfoot", or "telepathy" -- that's not very consistent and NPOV, is it? -- Gutza 20:49, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
A couple of points. 1) What is a language and what is not is a largely arbitrary division, but it is not a completely arbitrary one. Calling Palauan and Korean Japanese dialects, even if this has been done (I assume before 1945?), is simply absurd, because the languages are not at all related. Similarly, while people do call the languages spoken in south China dialects of Chinese, nobody calls Uyghur, Tibetan, Zhuang, etc. etc. "Chinese dialects" - or, if they did, they would be exposed to ridicule, and it would be perfectly fair to say this was an absurd idea, and simply wrong. Same deal if the French started calling Breton a dialect of French, if the Spanish called Basque a Spanish dialect, if Scots Gaelic were called an English dialect, and so forth. There are lines beyond which one cannot pass, at least in the case of calling a completely distinct language a dialect of another language. Whether the same can be said on the other end, I'm not sure, but calling Montenegrin or Bosnian, for instance, a separate language from Serbian seems to be coming pretty close to being ridiculous. What if we called American English and British English separate languages? If a POV warrior came onto wikipedia claiming this, would we have to give a language box for American English separate from the one for English?
2) As to the issue of Moldovan as a dialect continuum, I can't speak to this, since I don't speak Romanian or know very much about how people speak in Chisinau. That being said, you are very distinctly mixing two separate issues into one in order to present a stronger case for Moldovan as a separate language. On the one hand, there is the fact that the Moldovan constitution defines the official language of Moldova (which is identical to the Romanian of Romania, except with a small orthographical difference which seems to be no greater than that of "colour" and "color" between British and American English) as "Moldovan." But this "Moldovan language," which is, again, exactly the same as Romanian, is clearly not a separate language. On the other hand, you have the issue of Russianization of the Romanian/Moldovan spoken in certain parts of Moldova. I will assume that you are correct in your discussions of this phenomenon. But the fact remains that the existence of a Russian/Romanian creole (or, more likely, pidgin) in Chisinau and elsewhere is a separate issue which you are purposefully mixing in with the other to create confusion. The official "Moldovan language" of Moldova is identical to the "Romanian language" of Romania and Serbia & Montenegro (or do we have a "Voijvodinese language" in the latter?) The existence of regional variation is simply not related to this issue. john k 06:36, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
As you correctly noted, all the "differences" you list above are not actual differences, but rather preferences, correct within the language in both places (I do acknowledge they exist as preferences, but that doesn't change anything).
You say "Whether "Moldovan" is the proper name for the jargon or heavily Russian-influenced Daco-Romanian speech of urban Moldova or not is a matter that has already been decided very firmly by the experts. It is called "Moldovan" (some sources used "Moldavian" during the Soviet era) almost unanimously in the literature." -- but then again, Moldovan is also the official language of Rep Moldova, not only the "jargon or heavily Russian-influenced Daco-Romanian speech of urban Moldova", regardless of how firmly experts decided they want to talk about the jargon. The experts probably make it clear what they refer to, or maybe it follows logically from the context. But in this context, on Wikipedia talk pages, you seem to swicth between one definition and the other seamlessly, and it's quite confusing. I'm open to suggestions on how to identify what we're talking about, and how to make that clear in the article as well.
"The majority of [...] Romanians with national loyalty see Moldovans as peasants [...] on the periphery of Romanian society, and [...] the Moldovan language as a degraded, substandard slang which has “broken off” from Romanian." -- I want to clarify a couple of aspects regarding the quotation you chose, which clearly tries to make a case against Romanians:
-- Gutza 11:54, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
Oh, and since we're on the topic of differences, it would probably informative for john k to know that a huge chunk of the differences all these theories stand on are basically differences between modern Romanian and the Romanian spoken and written in Romania by the middle of the 20th century. In other words, the literary language they speak in Rep Moldova is almost 100% identical to the literary Romanian frozen in time for one generation. No huge surprise there, considering the historical perspective.
Now, in regard with your nauseating comparison between Romanian/Moldovan and Bosnian/Croatian, you seem to actively try to avoid the social issue: the majority of Romanians don't want Moldova to use or pretend to use a different language than Romanian, and the majority of Moldovans don't want to use or pretend to use a different language than Romanian (note the census data, and several other sources), so basically your views are in minority within the entire region. -- Gutza 18:38, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
What Romanians say is indeed less relevant, but it is relevant nonetheless -- not in a positive way, as you probably expect, but rather in a non-negative way: if Romanians said "we don't understand what the hell those guys are saying", then you'd have a stronger case for Moldovan. Alas, we don't. But saying that what Moldovans say is "partly irrelevant" is completely, but completely absurd, given the pillars you've used to build your entire position. Your entire argumentation is based on the fact that Moldovan exists because it is regulated by a body which calls it by that name. If a referendum was held in Moldova, and its results were consistent with the census data, and it was actually acted upon, then where would you be? The very fact that no referendum is held is the reason why so many people call this entire thing a political sham.
Regarding the fact that experts refer to Moldovan, come on! Ethnologue doesn't have a code for it -- it doesn't even have a page on it; the country studies by the Library of Congress say "[...] both Romanian written in the Cyrillic alphabet (that is, "Moldavian") and Russian were the official languages of the Moldavian SSR [...]"; and for God's sake, even the body regulating the Moldovan language, in its linguistics institute doesn't say it deals with the "Moldovan" language! I can provide you with two experts who doesn't take your claims seriously for every expert who supports you -- and then some. But do we really want to get into a spitting contest here? -- Gutza 18:20, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
Node, for me, at least, the key issue is that you seem to determined to, as Gutza puts it, move seamlessly between two separate definitions of "Moldovan language," and only to be willing to clearly distinguish them when you are called on it. If the article is to discuss both a) the official written language of Moldova; and b) the Russian-influenced Romance language spoken in urban areas in Moldova as the "Moldovan language," it must be made crystal clear that these are quite separate concepts. I do not know if you intend to create confusion here, and I apologize if in my previous remarks I implied that you were purposefully trying to be confusing, but the fact remains that you are creating confusion, and that you seem to be demanding that this confusion be maintained. I cannot see the value of eliding these two separate meanings of the term "Moldovan language" into one. john k 03:52, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
Node, what's your problem with that section? You may interpret it as nationalistic, because that's your own bias, but it's freaking true, those are historical facts you can read about in all history books and encyclopedias in the world -- including Wikipedia, in other articles. You may say it has nothing to do here, that could be a possibly valid point, but I think it's only fair to give people a little background on what happened in the region, for a better understanding of the current situation. I can't say I'm sorry that history didn't happen more to your liking, because that would mean Moldova would be undisputed Russian land, which it isn't. But hey, that's what happened, we can't change it now. Forbidding that information being there would be similar to Al Quaeda members opposing the data in Economy of the United States, on account of it being nationalistically biased -- indeed, it looks good for Americans, but it's still true true data, so it's still there.
If you want to contest the accuracy of the data in that section, or the way it is presented, I'd be happy to discuss it. But please don't revert without discussing. -- Gutza 18:20, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
Now, I just realized I never made myself really clear regarding this dispute. My basic claim is that Moldovan is not even a dialect of Romanian, but rather a regional variety (not sure about the terminology, IANA linguist), on the same level of difference as the Romanian spoken in Transylvania, Oltenia or Moldavia (similar with the differences between Texan and Californian, for whoever else reads this). The dialects of Romanian are Aromanian, Megleno-Romanian and Istro-Romanian, all of them a world away from Romanian in comparison with the Romanian language spoken in Rep Moldova. Moreover, I claim that spoken Moldovan is basically identicall in all aspects, including accent, with the language spoken in the Romanian part of Moldavia, with the only exception of having more Russian loanwords, and possibly few very non-essential regionalisms. Finally, I claim that the differences in writing between Romanian and the way Moldovan is regulated in Rep Moldova should not be categorized as a difference in spelling, but rather in ortography. A difference in spelling is the one between "color" and "colour", which resulted from the natural evolution of the language; the difference in writing between Moldovan and Romanian is simply an arbitrary matter of how the respective Academies regulated their written forms.
Color vs. colour:
Cât vs. cît:
Now, regarding the actual changes I'd like to see in these articles.
I was talking about the heading section, not about the first section. Specifically, I was talking about "Moldovan is considered by most people to be identical to the Romanian language" -- I'd like to see this reworded to "Moldovan is considered by most people to the Romanian language renamed for political reasons", or something similar. -- Gutza 16:33, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
I consider "Moldovan" exactly what it is: the official language of Rep Moldova, and nothing more. Since it's actually Romanian renamed, we can't discuss about Moldovan as being the "amalgamated" language, because that's not how the Moldovan Academy regulates the language -- or is it? We also can't talk about the "large degree of mutual intelligibility", because that's nonsense: speakers of the same language obviously understand each other. Of course, the census itself was biased, asking a trick question, in order to gain legitimacy for "Moldovan" as a distinct language from Romanian. Or maybe you can find a legitimate sense for those options? If you can't either, then maybe we should note this explicitly. -- Gutza 16:33, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
John k and I addressed this in the previous section, please see that thread. However, you didn't address the main issue in your reply, namely how we should find a consensus in presenting the census results. -- Gutza 15:12, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
So, let me know what you think. -- Gutza 20:49, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
Node, you keep on accusing Romanians of nationalism. That's subjective on your part, and more or less ad hominem -- you take advantage on knowing our ethnicity, and play on it. You're a self-declared Moldovan-born, IIRC. Can you tell us more on the topic of your ethnicity? Don't you think it would be fair if we also knew yours, in the context? Thank you for your honesty. -- Gutza 22:36, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Thanks. That's a good compromise. -- Chris 22:15, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
Node, you have a disturbing habit of inserting your comments before other people's -- that breaks the page and makes the "other people" look like idiots (Good compromise -- I disagree -- Ah, right -- Whew, great! (most people would think "what the hell is so great, are you stupid?")). Please try to keep the page comments in chronological order, even if that means that your comments end up after other people's, it's just the way it goes, it's not offensive or diminutive to what you want to say.
Back on topic. "Formerly" means that something was, and is no more the case. And that's precisely correct regarding this issue:
Last but not least, you probably failed to notice that the article opens with the very NPOV "Moldovan (Latin alphabet: limba moldovenească, Cyrillic alphabet: лимба молдовеняскэ)" -- so the information is readily available, in a very proeminent place in the article. The information about the current state of affairs on the other hand is buried in section 1.2 of the article.
Not enough for you, you need the Cyrillic version in the infobox too. Given that the name of the language is presented proeminently in Cyrillic in the very first words of the article heading, I wanted to remove it from the infobox. That's no good, you say. Ok, then I accepted a compromise where we re-iterate the name in Cyrillic in the infobox, but we give some sort of hint to the casual reader that the Cyrillic version is not official anymore ("formerly"). But no, you're not happy with that either, you need to have Cyrillic on exactly the same level with Latin within the article until the last possible place where it must be "accepted" that, well, actually, Cyrillic hasn't been official for the past 16 years! Doesn't 16 years qualify for "formerly"?
Hey, how about we remove Sections 1.2 and 3.1 altogether, and just link somewhere in the references to a page where we state that Cyrillic hasn't been official since 1989? What the hell, let's also remove the link from the references, name the explanatory article "Current status of the Moldovan language", and hope that the casual reader will find it using the Search button -- that would still preserve the same NPOV information, just in a different fashion, right?
Of course I'm aware my proposal is outrageously over the top and nowhere in the same ballpark with Node's position -- but I wanted to show that while the information is "there", and it's accurate, the presentation is important, and the presentation itself can be POV. In my opinion, in the current version of the article, the information is NPOV, but the presentation is POV -- the casual reader must not be led to believe that Latin and Cyrillic scripts are equal in regard with Moldovan, simply because it's not true, regardless of how many books or speakers or unrecognized states use it.
The current version of the first "screen" doesn't give any hint whatsoever that Cyrillic is not official anymore, but rather implies pretty strongly that the language is officially written in dual scripts (much strongly than a simple "formerly" would imply the opposite, since the name in Cyrillic was already obvious and proeminent -- no "formerly X" would be needed if "X" was not used by anyone anywere -- there's no "formerly Dacian" note on the Romanian language article, because it's not needed).
I'm open to suggestions on how to accomplish this goal, since the previous compromise obviously doesn't make everyone happy. -- Gutza 00:38, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
"You seem to think that the inclusion of both in the infobox implies that they are equal. If this is the case, then why is the Cyrillic text in a smaller font? In fact, I don't see how that's logical or NPOV, even though I added it that way, I'm going to make it larger now." -- way to go Node, there's a wonderful example of working towards compromise! "You seem to think X strenghtens my case. If so, then why Y, which in my opinion weakens my case? Right, let's remove Y then!" I'm honestly appalled.
Moldovan has been written in Latin officially for the past 16 years -- a generation of young people have completed their entire education, college included, using Latin script alone. The current version of the article makes no indication whatsoever in that direction for the casual reader, one really needs to go deep into the article to find that out. Furthermore, as explained above, although you're concerned that writing "formerly" before the Cyrillic name might imply something of the past, the lack of any indication whatsoever certainly implies something very much of the present. In other words, if we say "formerly", it's obvious that we're talking about relatively recent events (see my example with "formerly Dacian" in Romanian, which nobody would consider reasonable), whereas if we don't, there is simply no information available at all.
Again, I am open to alternate solutions, but my hope of reaching compromise with you is slowly fading away, after your appalling reaction to my previous comments. -- Gutza 12:32, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
Gutza called me over for my two cents. So here it is ..
One of the duties of a linguistics-related article is to describe a language. Linguists call this descriptive linguistics, this is opposed to prescriptive linguistics where people are told how to speak a certain way (this was English class for us Americans, you Romanians probably had a class for your own language). This is what using the "official" name is. It doesn't quite get the reality of the situation with Moldovan's writing systems. Yes, there is the government-sanctioned Latin alphabet, but that's not the whole story.
As an analogy, if for some reason tomorrow that the English-speaking world decided to use the Cyrillic alphabet, it would still be appropriate to list English along with Инглиш. Even after perhaps 15 or 20 years it would still be appropriate. There will still be people who still write and correspond with each other in the Latin script. And that is the case now with Moldovan.
Also, I usually concern myself with the languages of the Philippines. Only my native languages, Tagalog and English, are recognized as the official languages of the Philippines. My grandmother's language, Bikol is not official. Thus there's no "official" way of writing it. Latin script is the de-facto script. So, official is not possible. -- Chris S. 02:24, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
"In Chişinău, most strangers, even ethnic Romanians, address one another in Russian, despite the fact that Moldovan is official." I don't know what this is meant to say:
I'd like to rephrase it as to remove ambiguity, but don't know which way to. -- Gutza 08:14, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
Ahhh, yes, stupid me, I was thinking "foreigners" -- your intuition worked right. Yes, in the correct interpretation (people who don't know each other), I hear that's true, most people do actually try Russian first. -- Gutza 12:26, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
Of course, if we choose to take any other city but Chisinau as an example, or if we choose to take the countryside as an example, or any region in Moldova except Chisinau as an example, we'll reach the opposite conclusion. But then again, this is just FUD, it won't go into the article. -- Gutza T T+ 14:25, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
Yes, it does seem ironic at first glance -- but it's quite logical if you consider the context. I expect you don't contest the massive Russian "colonisation" of RM. In that context, I can't imagine many Russians leaving for another country (I expect that's what they felt, regardless of whether it was officially part of USSR or not) without some pretty strong incentives. Therefore I can't expect a conversation along these lines: "Go to a small village in an unknown country and work a menial job" -- "Hurrah! Let's all go!". Instead, I expect most of them landed in Chisinau, which explains the current state of affairs.
Since this is not going into the article, I won't go into an argument with you on the merits of your assessment of the situation. But just for the record, in case you interpret silence as agreement. "It has been said that requirements for Moldovan language education are a joke" -- I heard the opposite from Moldovans. "Russian-heritage kids will only learn good Moldovan at school if they go to a Moldovan or Turkish school" -- that's true, but the following is also true: "Russian-heritage kids will only learn good English at school in US if they go to an American school" (as opposed to a Russian school, where they are taught in Russian -- not hugely surprising in either case). Finally, "If we are to see Chisinau as an example, then we would surely decide that Romanian is in decline" -- how is that? In order to decide on a trend, you must judge a trend. But you're only judging the current state of affairs, which is most likely inherited from the USSR days. Do you have any figures showing the evolution of the Russian-speaking population to support your claim about the trend regarding the Romanian decline? -- Gutza T T+ 18:23, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
In Romania, instead of using code switching with Russian, like it is in Moldova, it is quite commonly used English. Well, I have a story related to this: some girl used my computer for reading her emails and unfortunatelly, she clicked OK on the browser's question on keeping password. Only later I realized that I had access to a email account of a Moldovan girl. Of course, it would be against my Wooster code of honour to violate someone's correspondence, but, sometimes we have to do it for the advance of science of linguistics. So, I analyzed the contents of some of her emails and was able to divide them in two categories: those that had a Romanian addressee were written in the usual Romanian with English phrases and words, while those that had a Moldovan addressee contained Romanian with Russian phrases and words. I found this rather amusing. :-)
Anonymously yours, 195.212.29.75 07:40, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
What is this 1.1 mil people? A whole article on the Maldabanian language? I am sorry but this is outragous. Ok, well I am gonna make an article on the "Beltsy" language and "Transnistrian/Prednestrovian" langauge. There simply is no Moldovanian langauge and if there is then that is certainly the same as the Romanian language. At most, this article should make a refference to the Romanian language article. Domnu Goie 18:08, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Please provide the translation of the examples. mikka (t) 23:09, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Which examples? You are not another anti-Romanian are you? damn where do you people pop up? PS: I am sorry if you ment something else and I misunderstood you. Domnu Goie 23:48, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
can i propose something?
I think I see where the problem lies. It's in the little green table there. How about this:
1) Under "Spoken in": we put it where it is spoken(essentially all places as romanian) 2)Under "Total speakers": we say 1.1 mil and in brakets we say 26 million if we consider romanian speakers as well. 3)Under "official language": we leave it the way it is. Mihaitza 07:29, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
See http://mo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page. This is probably the first case in which politics is used for creating a language version of Wikipedia. Oleg Alexandrov 17:00, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
Node_eu, I saw you added at the references section several links to blog entries or free homepages. Within the scope of Wikipedia, they are not valid references, as they are not reliable sources. See: Wikipedia:Reliable sources#Using online sources:
bogdan | Talk 19:41, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Most other differences in the official written languages are matters of punctuation. This includes, for example, using an apostrophe to mark elision rather than the hyphen used in Romania.
I'm not sure that it is a very common slang. I can find only two hits for the word "krasavitz" on the web (spelled "crasavic" there's none). bogdan | Talk 19:21, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
http://www.google.com/search?q=krasavitz&lr=lang_ro
A more important question about colloquial Moldovan is where information in the corresponding section comes from. I made some changes to the section. We need to find exact phrases used by people in Moldova. I, for one, never heard either "crasavic" or "kak deneok proshel" in Chisinau. Moreover, Russian words, whenever they are used in IM, IRC or anywhere else on the web are transcribed, they are never written in Cyrillic. So I deleted the sentence that stated otherwise.
Dmitriid
16:15, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Node, please explain your edit:
to
Do you dispute the fact that there is a linguistic consensus ? Anyway, using "most people" is against Wikipedia's policy. See: Wikipedia:Avoid weasel terms. bogdan | Talk 08:05, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
Wrong. See:
bogdan | Talk 17:09, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
It says "official written language". If you search for "cat" vs"cit" at .md, going by your results, a din a would be the official form, which it is not.
pîntece = burtă pleşuv/chelbos = chel ţintirim = cimitir pişca = ciupi mamcă/mancă = doică mai = ficat cute = gresie sudoare = năduşeală ciolan = os oghial = plapumă cori = pojar popuşoi = porumb hulub = porumbel rărunchi = rinichi moş = unchi curechi = varză omăt/nea = zăpadă
Those words exist in Romanian, too. They are synonims. Moş and unchi, however, are two different words. Learn the language before opening your mouth! And to see that you don't even dare to sign your post... but we all know who you are ;) -- Anittas 00:40, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
You don't even speak the language, you n00b. -- Anittas 05:19, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
Node, you said:
Show me one actual linguistic difference between Romanian, as used in Romania and Moldovan, as used on the official Moldova's government site. bogdan | Talk 07:02, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
Two users disallow me from using the source I have on Grigore Ureche by reverting the article. These users are user:Christopher Sundita and user:Node ue. I have tried to solve the conflict via ANI, RfA, RfM, and most recently, TINMC. A moderator directed me to this talkpage, where I'm supposed to first try and solve the dispute.
Here is the fragment that is being refused by the two users:
"The Moldavian chronicler, Grigore Ureche ( 1590 - 1647), established in his "Letopiseţul Ţării Moldovei" (The Chronicles of the land of Moldavia) that Moldavian (Moldovan) and Wallachian (Romanian from Wallachia) are essentially the same language; and that Moldavians and Wallachians share the same ethnicity."
The reasons for this refusion have been changed over time. I will bring them in chronological order, by the name of their author. I will, later, post the sources from where these reasons have been posted.
My comments: I never used that word in my fragment, and to this day, his complaint remains a mystery.
My comments: Sundita justified the reverting by saying that:
1. the source is too old; and
2. it's a POV statement
A source is allowed to be old. History, one could argue, is old - but that's a matter of perspective. Sundita further claimed that this was Ureche's point of view. Well, as a matter of fact, it was also the view of the Prince of Moldavia at the time; it was also the view of Dimitrie Cantemir; and it was also the view of those Moldavians, including Ioan Cuza, who united Moldavia with Wallachia to create Romania. And it was the point of view of most Moldavians, I would dare to say, until 1994 onward. And, to my great shock, even CIA Factbook shares that POV. See here: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/md.html#People
But enough of POVs. Let it be known that Ureche was a scholar who identified foreign sources that also, to our greatest scandal on this Wiki, shared that POV; mostly, Polish and Hungarian sources.
My comments: Node's mystery intensifies and we might have to archive his comments on a seperate page. We should name it: The X Files.
My comments: Who is creating that subpage?
My comments: Sundita repeats the age of the source and concludes that in this amount of time, languages can change. This is irrelevant. Let languages change whenever they want - I should still have the right to post a source. And if Sundita wants a more recent source, he can check CIA Factbook. Or, he can consult Encyclopedia Britannica:
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-42814?query=moldovan&ct=eb
During the Soviet period the Moldavian language (as it was then called) was written in the Cyrillic alphabet. Soviet scholars, mainly for political reasons, insisted that this language was an independent Romance language that was distinct from Romanian. In fact the differences between the two languages are of little significance and are confined to phonetics and vocabulary. In 1989 the script of the Moldovan language was changed to Roman; thereupon began a heated debate over whether the language should be called Romanian or Moldovan.
Or, Sundita could consult BBC!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/country_profiles/3038982.stm
Two-thirds of Moldovans are of Romanian descent, the languages are virtually identical and the two countries share a common cultural heritage.
Can we use those fresh and credible sources in the article, Sundita?
My comments: Sundita now says that the source is not reliable. May I ask why? I think the source is very reliable. As I said: the scholar researched the history of Moldova and its language, and of course, he noticed that Moldovan and Wallachian was essentially the same language, and so he drew that conclusion - the same conclusion that the rest agreed upon and the same conclusion that CIA, BBC, Britannica, and god knows how many other sources, agree upon. Wikipedia is the only exception.
Those reasons have been given by the two friends on the edit history of this page. It can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Moldovan_language&curid=226999&action=history
But the fun doesn't end here. At RfM, where I presented my case, Sundita came up with the same reasons, [ but just a bit different in their approach]:
My comments: Sundita is now no longer disputing Ureche's opinion. It's just that languages can change a lot under 400 years. I have already responded to this opinion, but Sundita then says that he's interested in knowing what linguists around the world have to say about this. Fine! Let's ask them!
Let's ask the INSTITUTE OF LINGUISTICS of Moldova. This is what they call their language:
"In the field of dialectology and linguistic geography, the cartography of the materials was continued, aimed at compiling a linguistic atlas showing the territorial distribution of lexical units peculiar to the Romanian spoken between the Pruth and the Dniester, the same as in more remote zones."
http://www.asm.md/institute/lingvist/index_en.htm
My comments: Republic of Moldova lies between the Prut and the Dniester, and as you can clearly read from the text, they call their language for Romanian. You may read the full article.
More examples: http://www.asm.md/institute/litfolc/index_en.htm
Some scholars even wrote books about this dispute; one of them is American scholar Donald Leroy Dyer who wrote "The Romanian Dialect of Moldova: A Study in Language and Politics". His CV: http://www.olemiss.edu/depts/modern_languages/Dyer.html
You can buy his book on Amazon.
If Ureche is not good enough, then perhaps the popular opinion of linguistics is good enough? But why should I have their permission to use a source? I want to hear their argument. You can await further excuses made by the two fellows, but know that neither of them speak either Romanian, or this Moldovan language that was given birth in 1994 - because before that year, the language was called Romanian.
Thank you! -- Anittas 23:51, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Durin#Revert_conflict
I gave him a chance. Also, I don't care what Russians call our language. Remember, I'm Moldavian, too, and we sometimes also say that we speak on Moldavian, but that refers to the regional accent. In all sources, but the Russian one, Moldovan is acknowledged to be the same as Romanian. But you don't speak either, so how could you know? Either way, all of this is irrelevant. The article is about the Moldovan language and I have the right to cite a source that is relevant to its topic. -- Anittas 05:22, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
Addentum: this is what it says about American linguistic Dyer:
Donald L. Dyer, AM'82, PhD'90, The Romanian Dialect of Moldova: A Study in Language and Politics (Edwin Mellen Press). Dyer examines the history of Soviet language policy in Moldova, where Soviet linguists attempted to create an independent literary language called "Moldavian." He focuses on the dialectal features of Moldovan Romanian and the relationship between the Romanian of Moldova and other regional languages.
And you say that he supports your ideas and then tell me to read his books? Thanks for the laugh, dude! http://magazine.uchicago.edu/9912/class-notes/books_ling.html
-- Anittas 05:45, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
I don't believe you've read that book. By reading your profile, you're Mr. Encyclopedia yourself. You know full well that Moldavia is the designition to refer to Romanian Moldova. The same is the same for both regions. And yes, it is irrelevant to call you a liar, but you were the one to bring up the off-topic remarks - not I. You should have stuck to the topic, not your personal problems. Anywhere you on the net, you will find that Moldovan is the same language as Romanian, with minor regional differences. Those differences are fewer than the difference between American English and Australian English, for example; but you don't see Australians wanting to make their own language. And I'll rather trust BBC, than some punk kid. -- Anittas 12:20, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
Users 195.175.37.38, 195.175.37.8, and 202.69.200.15 blocked for 24 hours for persistent insertion of a huge historical piece that says nothing about language. This text belongs to the history of Moldova/Moldavia. Please learn the rules of wikipedia during this time. Please get rid of your paranoia and learn to cooperate. Otherwise you will be blocked indefinitely.
Instead of calling names you have to explain in the talk page why you consider your changes relevant and important. I don't see any particular reason of addition of a huge historical passage that says nothing about language. For example, your "Greater Romania" addition will cause no objections in the History of Romania article (provided it is factually correct). mikka (t) 19:16, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
Alright, I'm unprotecting. If they continue to unconditionally revert, let me know and I can protect again. — BRIAN 0918 • 2005-10-31 12:24
To throw some cold water on these individuals here who keep throwing the word "
language" around:
African American Vernacular English is much more different from standard American
English than Moldovan is from Romanian (AAVE is grammatically different as well as lexically and phonologically different), but
AAVE is termed a
dialect. Clearly, there is no science at work here in this Moldovan case, just
politics. You can run your mouth all day, but that's the motive behind the
Moldovan language.
Alexander 007
11:02, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
The following lines are very accurate:
Moldovan is identical to
Romanian language
.
The following text is given for comparison in so called Moldovan and in Romanian, with an English translation. The English translation is only provided as a guide to the meaning, with an attempt to keep the word order as close to the original as possible.
As was presented above both "languages" are identical. It was proved that there is only one language:
romanian. 21.55,4.Nov.2005
Actually, what you say is crap. Â and Î stand for the same pronouncation. We used to write with Î, as well, but our scholars changed it back to how it once was in the 19th century. However, some people still write with Î in the middle of the sentences. And the real Moldovan, as you call it, is just an accent. Most of that accent is very strongly influenced by Russian, and this influence took place in the recent 20th century, under the Russian occupation. You can bring a Chinese guy to speak Romanian. Even if he speaks the language with a strong Chinese accent, it's still Romanian. -- Anittas 12:12, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
The example is crap for one simple reason: I have all reasons to believe that the phrase is written by a Romanophile. I am 100% sure that in Soviet times a Soviet linguist would have written the text in a completely different way. If a sufficient number of Chinese will speak Romanian under Romanian occupation, there is no reason not to recognize a separate Chimanian language or at least a dialect.
I genuinely don't understand what all this fuss is about. The article says prominently that Romanian and Moldavian are nearly-idedntical and the distinction in mainly political. Officially it is a "lanuguage," although most linguists would say it is rather a dialect. The fact that they are mutually intelligible is immaterial. In the same way, there are attempts among Russian nationalists to "prove" that belarussian and ukrainian language are dialects of Russian. These opinions are rightfully seen as Russian imperialism, and just the same, what is happening here has the ultimate goal to prove that Moldovans have no right for national identity. mikka (t)
The sentence read:
User:Node ue without specifying a reason, removed this clause:
Perhaps there is confusion on his part. Let me remind readers that in English, the clause "if only in the sense that" or "if only because" does not preclude or discourage other reasons. See for example this sentence from Edward O. Wilson:
-If you want to change the current sentence, figure something out besides a surreptitious deletion. Alexander 007 16:55, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
This is for Anittas and everybody else who says that colloquial Moldovan of which the article speaks is nothing more than an "accent".
Also, it's intended as a solution to the problem with "crasavic", which is not very often used as Moldovan, and the example as well.
Ahh, and in response to Alexandru's accusations of surreptitious deletions: that was part of a "mass reversion". It is because there was no single version between the one back to which I reverted and the most recent one before I reverted that I perceived to be POV, fair, factual, or whatever. It does not mean that I am willing to fight to the death over every single section that got reverted. So, while I personally think it is a bit strange to say "if only because", I really don't care much about that particular edit. -- Node 19:25, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
Yes, I've seen how different Moldovan is from Romanian: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Moldovan_language&curid=1237811&diff=27756358&oldid=27754034#Language_-_Comparison_with_Romanian
-- Anittas 01:39, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
If you go by phonology, you will find several regional differences in all of Romania. Just like you find differences when Irish, Scots, English, American, or Australians speak the English language. As for the syntax, it's the same. -- Anittas 05:35, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
No, I'm not going to re-enter this dispute, since this would mean wasting my time, but just for fun, I'll post a link to how this article should be like, if there were no POV-pushers. There is a consensus in the linguistic world, but it appears that in here POV is misunderstood and opinions are valued as much as the scientific consensus. Have fun with this page. bogdan | Talk 16:09, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/1091/moldovan1qp.png
taken from Price, Glanville. Encyclopedia of the Languages of Europe. ISBN 0631220399; Blackwell Publishers, Oxford, UK; April 2000
"The name 'Moldovan language' (in Russian, МОЛДaВCKИЙ ЯЗБIK 'moldavskii iazyk'); in Romanian, limbă moldovenească, or, in Cyrillic characters, ЛИMбЗ MOЛДОBeНЯCKЗ was applied in the Soviet Union, as during earlier periods of Russian occupation of the area in question, to the * Romance language used in the Moldavian Soviet Socialist Republic (corresponding more or less to the formerly Romanian territory of Bessarabia, annexed by the Soviet Union in 1940). In reality, 'Moldavian' is nothing else than the *Romanian language as spoken in Moldavia, i.e. both east of the river Prut in Bessarabia (now the Republic of Moldova) and west of the Prut in that part of the former province that remains as part of Romania. Claims made in the post-Second World War period by the Soviet linguists that 'Moldavian' should be recognized as a distinct Romance language were not taken into seriously by western scholars. Under Soviet domination, the *Cyrillic alphabet was in the use in the Moldavian SSR until the passing of a law on 31 August 1989 (i.e. before the break-up of the Soviet Union) proclaiming Moldavian as the official language of the Republic and the use of Latin script. Apart from a few lexical differences (mainly technical terms borrowed from Russian rather than, as in standard Romanian, from western languages), the written language was thenceforth indistinguishable from that in use in Romania and moves are afoot to harmonize the technical terminology of Moldova with that adopted in Romanian specialized dictionaries. After the Republic of Moldova declared its independence of the Soviet Union in 1991, its Constitution (1994) declared that the official language was limba moldoveneasca 'the Moldavian language'. At the time of writing, moves to have this amended to 'limba română' the Romanian language have not yet succeeded.
Heitmann, K., 1989, Moldauisch. In Holtus, G., Metzeltin, M. and Schmitt, C. (eds), Lexicon der Romanschinen Linguistik, Tübingen, vol 3. 508-21.
GLANVILLE PRICE" Bonaparte talk & contribs
Others except the Russian are in the same manner. All the western powers refuse the russification attempts. Bonaparte talk & contribs
I am not an expert in the topic, and I decided to verify some statements recently added. To my sorrow, I found that diligence of contributors here is way below acceptable. I am speaking about plain wrong facts from near history, not opinions. Therefore I decided to stay an anti-romanian anti-semitism vandal for a while and I will be removing all new additions presented without references that will look suspicious to me. mikka (t) 07:30, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
A Constitution is a system, often codified in a written document, which establishes the rules and principles by which an organization is governed. In the case of nation states, this term refers specifically to a national constitution, which defines its nation's fundamental political principles and establishes the power and duties of each government. So far so good. Let's read the romanian and the moldovan constitution, after all, a constitution is written in the official language of the states, isn't it so?
![]() |
Romanian
![]() |
English |
---|---|---|
TITLUL I: Principii Generale | TITLUL I Principii Generale | FIRST TITLE: General Principles |
Articolul 1
Statul Republica Moldova |
Articol 1 Statul român | Article 1 (Romanian/Republic of Moldova State) |
(1) Republica Moldova este un stat suveran şi independent, unitar şi indivizibil. | (1) România este stat naţional, suveran şi independent, unitar şi indivizibil. | (1) Romania/Republic of Moldova is a national, independent, unity and undestructible state. |
2) Forma de guvernămînt a statului este republica. | (2) Forma de guvernământ a statului român este republica. | (2) The form of the guvernment of the state is republic. |
(3) Republica Moldova este un stat de drept, democratic, în care demnitatea omului, drepturile şi libertăţile ... | (3) România este stat de drept, democratic şi social, în care demnitatea omului, drepturile şi libertăţile ... | Romania/Republic of Moldova is a state of low, democratic, in which the human dignity, rights and liberties... |
[ [1]] | [ [2]] | Links to the official page of Constitution for both countries |
Bravo, Bonaparte! Yes, so many coincidences, here. Similar language, similar flag, similar constitution, similar traditions... -- Anittas 20:26, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Contrary to raging romanists, it was recognized in Soviet Union that moldavian is (or based on, or evolved from, etc.) a dialect of Romanian. This was written, e.g., in Great Soviet Encyclopedia (if my memory serves me well). The fact that some overzealous lingusts tried to prove than moldavian is slavic (btw, I don't see any references) says nothing. Much garbage is always being written in all countries at any times, and that was far from being officially supported doctrine.
Once again, a language variety is called language or dialect often by purely political or nationalistic reasons, and no amount of fist waving and shouting can prove or disprove one position or another. The same happens, e.g., with Arvanitic language (I happened to look recently into); some people insist that there is no such thing as Belarusian language. Look at the Balkanization of Yugoslavia, where each mountain seems to declare itself a separate ethnicity, with its own language, and who probably think that Moldovans are crazy morons who struggle to disappear. mikka (t) 21:11, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
AFAIK almost all of them were repressed. Are their names remembered? mikka (t) 07:44, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
While in general wikipedia works fairly well, I am appalled by by the maliciousness with which Node systematically changes various contributions, meaning that the bulk of the effort goes into reverting his vandalism. This takes several forms, from changing a word to change the sense of a sentence, to removing entire pans of text. The latter seem to be very difficult to revert, because it's not a simple rv operation if other contributions came in the meantime. Isn't there any way text can be protected from these abuses? It seems to me that Node is the only "contributor" I find not reasonable, and I saw in the discussion page that I am not alone. I would propose, if possible, that some other user (any other regular contributor to this page) filters his contributions. Is this possible? If not, I would like to file a vandalism report or require some arbitration. Is someone here sustaining a collective action? User:Dpotop
To those who genuinely don't understand what is this deleted text comparison about: Suppose I put side by side books in English grammar printed in California and in England as a "proof" that there is no such thing as American English. Refusing that Moldavians have their own dialect is simply against any historical common sense. It was only for political reason named "language". mikka (t) 01:53, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Node, you are not a linguist, either. And stop hating me, please. I'm not a girl! -- Anittas 01:50, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
My interests does not lie in pop music. If you check my main page, you will see that I've only started two articles on music artists. The rest are about history, literature, etc. You are not a linguist and I don't believe you have a Ph.D in anything. You are not more qualified than anyone else. And tell that to your magnificent friend, Sundita. -- Anittas 14:09, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
<insults removed>. Bonaparte and Annitas blocked for 24 hours for continuing exchange of insults. I warned you here. You know the policies. Either you calm down or you will be blocked for good. mikka (t) 21:12, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello, User:mikkalai. It seems that the compromise reached in the previous section does not hold. Guess why? Because User:Node ue decided to change it. I am now waiting for you to intervene. If not, I belive I have the needed proof to require the intervention of other editors. As you saw, I was really open to discussion, but now I am really bitter. User:Dpotop
Again, for User:mikkalai. I still wait for an explanation onto why User:Node ue has not been blocked along with the other. The decision didn't seem fair, given that he used obscene words (and that he started the fight). This shouldn't have been necessary, but it seems you did not understand what those "moldovan" words mean. They are in fact russian slang in Latin script: http://www.russki-mat.net/e/K.htm . User:Dpotop
User Anittas and Bonaparte talk & contribs have been blocked illegal and in the most abusive way by the user Mikkalai. It was outrageous the usage of such a manner! Was not fair at all! Here we bring arguments, facts, examples and you bring only your force argument! We will require the intervention of other editors. Bonaparte talk & contribs
There exists not a State of Transnistria since is not internationally recognized. It must be accepted a neutral point of view like the OSCE see also the link[ [5]]. To state in the first paragraph that the Moldovan Transnistrian Republic exists is too much. There is no republic without a State and officially is not recognized by any country. A state is an organized political community occupying a definite territory, having an organized government, and possessing internal and external sovereignty. Recognition of the state's claim to independence by other states, enabling it to enter into international agreements. Anyway the status of the region is still in negotiation. Bonaparte talk & contribs
You can say that Transnistria is a de-facto independent state. Why do you care, Bonaparte? People still talk about a reunion between Basarabia and Romania, while Transnistria goes to Russia or Ukraine. We don't want that curse. Let them have it. -- Anittas 14:11, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
I think the "spoken language" section does not belong here. This article is about a "language" spoken by "1.2 million". The vernacular is spoken by most Moldovans and is obviously not identical to the official language. bogdan | Talk 13:11, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
I am willing to allow paralell examples, given that the following example is used (from Dyer, 1998):
Moldovan File:FlagOfMoldova.png | Romanian
![]() |
English |
---|---|---|
E sărbătoare azi, nu plînge, mamă! Pot să fac prinsoare pe tot ce vreţi că nimeni pe lume n'a fost mai bucuros de zilele calde şi luminoase ce să aşezara la noi după sărbătorile paştelui ca mine Motl, băiatul lui Peişi-cantorul şi viţelul vecinului, caruia toţi îi zic Meni (acest nume i l-am dat chiar eu). Amîndoi odată am simţit cele dintîi raze mîngîietoare ale soarelui în prima zi caldă de după paşti, amîndoi odată am prins miresmele primelor tirişoare de iarbă verde ce mijeau din pămîntul de curînd dezgolit şi amîndoi odată ne-am tîrît afară din vizuinile noastre ntunecoase, pentru a învălui cu privirea prima dimineaţă alinătoare, caldă şi senină a primăverii...; amndoi la fel am dat buzna din bârlogul negru ca noaptea, n ogradă să cinstim cum se cuvine cea dintâi zi dulce, sclipitoare de primăvară... | Azi e sărbătoare, mamă, azi nu se cade să plângi! Pun rămăsag cu voi, pe cât vreţi, ca nimeni pe lumea asta n-a fost atât de fericit în ziua întâia după Paştic—a mine, Motl Peişiul cantorului şi Meni, viţelul vecinului (numele ăsta de Meni, eu i l-am dat!). Amândoi la fel am simţit cele dintâi raze calduţe ale soarelui; amândoi, la fel am adulmecat mireasma celui dintâi fir de iarbă care mijea din pământul abia scuturat de zăpadă; amndoi la fel am dat buzna din bârlogul negru ca noaptea, n ogradă să cinstim cum se cuvine cea dintâi zi dulce, sclipitoare de primăvară... | Today's a holiday, mama, please don't cry! I shall bet with you, on as much as you want, that nobody in this world was as happy as me, Motl the cantor's son, and Meni the neighbour's calf (I've given him this name). Both of us felt the same first comfortingly warm rays of sunshine, both of us sensed the fragrance of the first blades of green grass which had appeared from the earth and was just uncovering itself from the snow, both of us crept out of the dark den, into the courtyard to glorify the first comfortably restfully warm and peaceful days of spring... |
So, what do you say? Unlike Bonaparte, I used a real source instead of just making it up. And it's not a Russian source either -- they're both from the recent (1998) work of Donald Dyer, an American expert on Eastern Romance languages and politics of Moldova. -- Node 20:04, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
I say Nay, for what is said there in "Moldovan", could also be said in Romanian. They just use synonyms and other means to express them selves. Look at the first sentence; in Moldovan it says "E sărbătoare azi" and in Romanian it says "Azi e sărbătoare". What a joke! You can say either way, in either language! Nice try, Russian! -- Anittas 21:00, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
A citation is a reference to a book, including page number after each fact. This is not necessary in most cases, but in here, as this is a very disputed article. bogdan | Talk 00:20, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
The text as I see it is 100% of user Node ue and belong to him. He can't attack himself can he? So I say to let on the page, he posted not us, he is "entity made of pure energy", not us. Otherwise I say to vote. Bonaparte talk & contribs
Anonymous user, Node_ue, Bonaparte... We're getting nowhere.
I'm thinking of how to make a version acceptable by both sides, but I think that is a tough job. :-) bogdan | Talk 22:29, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
I am not going to play games here. Bonaparte blocked for one week for escalation of personal engagement after second warning. mikka (t) 22:54, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
The k/sh/tz spelling on SMS / IM / Internet is the same as in Romania, so it's not a Moldovan-only feature. bogdan | Talk 23:18, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
Well, after this might fighting, I thought we should open a more light-hearted topic so that people can relax a bit. I thought, why not gather all the guys and talk about women! I'll start first. I like women to be natural (not much make-up) and I like them to be feminine, but not submissive. To use an example, I think Angelina Jolie is cool. What about you guys? -- Anittas 00:52, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
Well, after this fighting, I figured it might help unwind a bit if we all talked a bit about G-d and our common cultural heritage through Judaism. I think we should start with our denominations. I am reform, but non-practicing and really consider myself an atheist. So, are you guys Reform, Conservative, Orthodox...? And what ethnic group? I'm Ashkenazic. -- Node 02:35, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
Please cut it, take a break and read what talk pages are for. Chat boards would be a better place for this stuff. mikka (t) 02:59, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
Link on an article on the census: (gardianul: in Romanian) Bogdan | Talk 12:35, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Actually we speak about the same language: romanian. But the russians wanted to make a difference hoping that in this way the russification of the romanian part of Moldova will be russian. This is absurd since we talk about the same nation and people who have the same language.
Could do with more on the dictionary. Does it try to exaggarete the differences? etc.
Morwen -
Talk 21:22, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
User:ChiLIBerserker: Moldovan is identical to Romanian. I speak Moldovan, and it is Romanian. Daco-Romanian by its definition includes Moldovan vernaculars, Ardeal vernaculars, et cetera. At least study the languages yourself before you make those kind of edits. There is no debate in the linguistic community, and the name of this article itself violates NPOV and violates scientific accuracy. Decius 10:52, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
I see that this article presents a problem that is awkward for Wikipedia. I'm not trying to push a false view, I'm just presenting reality, uncut and straight up. Decius 11:54, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
Even to refer to Moldovan as a "dialect" is inaccurate: it is barely even a dialect; is the Brooklyn speech a dialect of English? No. Moldovan is not even a dialect, let alone a language. I don't know who are the fucking idiots who are responsible for this false "language code", but I'm guessing they are Russian Soviet scum. Decius 12:25, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
I know all that, yes. I know Moldavian is identical to Romanian, yes .. just that as a dictionary, we shouldn't be taking sides politically for or against anyone, no matter how dumb a political side may be. I quite understand what you're saying .. just that with it being a "controversial" issue, also if it shouldn't be, we should say that linguists say the languages are identical .. not that WE say the languages are identical. That might come off as POV, also if it isn't. User:ChiLIBerserker
A proper formula has to be found here. Improper formulas will be edited back & forth. We have to find "language we can agree on" in the phrase. Decius 13:17, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
Seems decent enough like it is now. My beef was with the word "identical" .. as someone that has spent some time studying languages and dialects, I would never use that word in linguistics just because NO two human beings communicate in the same way, even when speaking the same language. Trained linguists can usually deduce which village or valley a person speaking language can come from .. so saying that Moldovan is "identical" to Romanian just can't be accurate, also if it is the same language. I wouldn't call the German spoken in my district of Vienna, where I currently live, identical to the german spoken in the neighbouring district. But I'm quite fine with the way it is now :D .. I quite accept that Moldovan is Romanian that has been split off from the language for silly political reasons and that it would make about as much sense as going to France and deciding that everyone south of the Seine doesn't speak French but a random other invented language. Just that in linguistics, claiming something to be "identical" doesn't come off very scientificly or neutral. - User:ChiLIBerserker 21:56, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
Decius, daca esti din RM, ar trebui ca sa preiei administratia Wikipediei Moldovenesti. In momentul de fata ea este tinuta de un Rus anti-Semit care se da a fi Jumate-Evreu( desi denegreaza Holocaustul) si Jumate-Moldovean. Dar el nici nu vorbeste Romaneste si traduce de pe internet din Engleza in Romana dupa care scrie versiunea Romana( bine inteles cu greseli) in alfabetul chirilic. NU este NPOV ca un administrator sa scrie intr-o limba pe care nici nu o stie. Du-te la discutia de pe pagina principala a Wikipediei Moldovenesti ca sa vezi despre ce vorbesc. Incercam ca sa votam aceasta wikipedie ori ptr. a fi data unui nou administrator ori ptr. a fi stearsa.
Cu respect, Duca
Duca, mulţumesc pentru onoarea care m-ai accordato, dar pentru cǎ sânt prea ocupat cu alte proiecte, acum nu pot sǎ accept propunerea. Cu respect, Decius 16:22, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
In 1989, when Moldova started using the Romanian Latin alphabet, they used the same verision as the one used in Romania at the time. The change came in Romania only a few years later.
However, the official version is not always respected, and this is true in both countries. For example, some Romanian newspapers use the old version ( Evenimentul Zilei, Academia Catavencu among others), while some Moldovan newspapers use the new version. ( Accente, Garda, etc) bogdan ʤjuʃkə | Talk 06:57, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Previously, the intro said that Moldovan was spoken by some number of people in Romania and the Vojvodina "under the name of Romanian." This is absurd. If one were to define Moldovan, it would have to be as "the Romanian language as spoken in Moldova" or else as "the language of the people of Moldova," or whatever. Even though this language is the same as Romanian, it is absurd to include Romanian speakers in a census of Moldovan. john k 9 July 2005 00:08 (UTC)
Um, no, not really jonny. I don't understand why that is so. What you just said does not make sense.
Mihaitza 9 July 2005 06:35 (UTC)
John, good luck in your attempts to get certain people to "understand". I can symphatize with you, as you and/or some of yours have resembling pattern in certain other topics. :) 217.140.193.123 9 July 2005 06:50 (UTC)
Node you got your sick little wikipedia in "moldavian". Aren't you happy? Do you have to come here too and turn this article into something out of a communist newspaper, as well? Can you at least leave this page the way it is?
Duca 01:03, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
Transnistria is (de jure at least) part of Moldova. That's why it still has Moldovan as official language. I'm sure that if it wouldn't be, than Moldovan, wouldn't be one of its official languages. You may add a note to Moldova in the "official language of" section, and say that in Transnistria the official script is chyrillic. -- Danutz
Node, I am gonna leave it for now since you seem to have restored a version that is a little bit better then the one before but I did change the part about the restoration of Moldovan into a "very similar script to that of Romanian". I only did this because it was factually wrong. Before 1992 Romanian was written with sint and with the i. Since Moldova made the language law before 1992, it used the "sint" version instead of the "sunt" version which was applicable in Romania only after 1992. This is why I changed it to "restored the latin script in the pre-1992 Romanian version". If you do not believe me you can research this and find out that I am telling the truth.
Another thing though, that bothers me, is the part about "vseo eu m-am dus". It really doesn't make sense at all from any gramatical prespective : russian or romanian. Do you have a source for that? And one more thing, the part with spoken romanian in moldova being more purist and written being not so purist, I would also like a source for those as well. And let's not repeat all your russian sources from the moldovan wiki discussion. Those are just forums and the "romanian-russian mix" was only observed among russian-speakers, not romanian-speakers. I would like a real source. Thnx
Duca 22:40, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
Fair enough. It is the Russian speakers who use that. However that does not mean that in Moldova Russian-speakers use a hybrid-language to communicate. Maybe that example of "vseo eu m-am dus" just comes from someone that does not know proper Romanian.
In any case, please leave the "pre-1992 Romanian version of the Latin script" alone. I just explained to you above that before 1992, the Romanian script was the same as Moldova's now. The moldovans adopted the new language laws in 1989 so that's 3 years before the Romanians changed a little their script. At the time it wasn't a variation of the Romanian script but the actual script used in Romania prior to 1992.
Duca 05:42, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
I see. Well, based on what you have told me, this is present among Russians and Ukrainians or people of mixed marriages, but not Romanians in Moldova. But this is not really pertinent to the article at hand: "moldovan language". We should make another article that touches on this subject and even expands on it.
Another thing. Many Romanians who live in North America use a sort of hybrid kind of language which contains many english or englisized words(especially arond the town of Boyan, in Aleberta,Canada); if you ask them what language they speak at home, they won't tell you they speak a hybrid of Romanian and English, they will tell you they speak Romanian. I think this case is very similar to the Russians and Ukrainians in RM. What language do the latter claim they speak: Romanian or Russian/Ukrainian.
Also what are your academic sources of the word "crasavic". In any case I do not think that this article is being NPOV right now. These little additions have to stop Node, because it's very clear that you have a little agenda here. Let's not start the same discussion that we had on the moldo wikipedia. The point of the slang and words like "crasavic", etc. etc. these are by no means pertinent to the article. Even if what you are saing is true, they are just regionalisms of Romanian and in any corner of Romania you will find similar regionalisms. Hungarians in Romania, probably use a "creole" like language as well but that has no place in an ecyclopedia either. It's pretty clear that all that your little additions do, is to make Romanian and Moldovan seem more different, rather then similar. It's pretty sad that even today, there are people in the world that continue the Stalinist theory of a "sepparate Moldovan language" and how young people have adopted this creole like language in between Romanian and Russian. Ever since 1940, people in Moldova have been told about the "new language of the young"(which existed only in the sick minds of Stalin and his loyal followers[some being alive to this day]). I am going to have to please ask you to either stop putting these things in or if you make another change next time, present ample academic sourses to back them up. Otherwise I am going to take this to someone higher in authority.
Duca 13:20, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
What is all this with "it may be true but it doesn't belong in an encyclopedia"? You say the page is POV right now... the stuff about slang usage is FACT. It does not say "It makes it more different! See?!? It's a different language! I told you!!!!!". Any higher authority you take this to will disagree -- if it is a fact, it is OK, in this sense. And it's true that slang usage of Slavic words is much higher in Rep. Moldova than in Romania. -- Node
Node, it's like we're speaking two different languages, man. All I am saying, is that you need a good, reliable source for that, before you stick it in. Any higher authority would agree with me there.
Duca 22:26, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, I corrected myself, on this discussion page, and I wrote "de jure": Transnistria is (de jure at least) part of Moldova. That's why it still has Moldovan as official language. I'm sure that if it wouldn't be, than Moldovan, wouldn't be one of its official languages. You may add a note to Moldova in the "official language of" section, and say that in Transnistria the official script is chyrillic. So, I don't see information in the Somali language, about the fact that Somali is official in Somalia and Somaliland (as Somaliland is part of Somalia yet). Or that Armenian language is official in Armenia and the Nagorno-Karabakh separatist republic in Azerbaidjan. In the Russian language, i added once Transnistria, and it was expelled from there. Currently Transnistria has the same status as Gagauzia. Why don't you add Gagauzia? Crimea in Ukraine has a similar status. Why don't you also add Crimea in the Ukrainian langauge article? Do you even see how POV you are? -- Danutz
Node_ue, I am asking you to bring credible references for the paragraph about the "creole". If you won't, then it falls into the Wikipedia:No original research policy and that paragraph has to be deleted from Wikipedia. bogdan ʤjuʃkə | Talk 08:42, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
"Original reserach" policy only applies when:
The main purpose of the policy is to exclude crackpot theories, not things which are factual. For example, it is not meant to exclude an article on Ablzodsfpsdf language just because the language has never been written about anywhere else, rather, it is mean to exclude text on another article saying that "Ablzodsfpsdf, although now spoken in Africa, was originally spoken by South American cannibals who brought it over in 900 BC", or that "most squirrels can speak fluent German". Just because something has never been written about before, does not automatically make it original research.
The original point of the NOR policy was actually to keep non-experts from touting their crackpot physics theories on Wikipedia, where they do not belong. How many of the phrases on Common phrases in different languages do you think you can find a source for??? Can you find a source for every single sentence in Romanian language? -- Node
I am confused - information which falls under the category of "common sense" is not original research. Discussion of a supposed Creole that nobody has written about before is clearly original research. john k 21:12, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
These guys have a point Node. On another subject, does anyone know if the protests of 2oo2 against the "obligatory Russian language in schools" was successful in making the government back down or not? Domnu Goie 23:52, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
Let me tell you, there is something different between you and me. You hate people. You hate Russians. I do not. If my viewpoint were the opposite of yours, I would hate people from Romania but I don't. Sure, many if not most of them disagree with me, but I don't think they're rude or nasty like you think about Russians. Romania has done some pretty objectionable things from time to time, but I don't hate them for it. Unionist rallies in the 90s in Chisinau are a bitter memory for me (I wasn't there, but it was a big deal to my family, since my parents etc were born there, so I heard a lot about it), and for many Moldovans who would like to put that behind them. Everyone in Moldova except the most extreme of the extremists seem to have come to terms with the fact that Russian and Ukrainian heritage people are not leaving anytime soon (those that will leave, already left when Moldova gained independence), and that both groups are going to have to live together for quite some time. Most Romanians however seem to think that Russian and Ukrainian heritage people in Moldova are going to be expelled. Most Romanians seem to think that Romanian heritage people in Moldova hate Russians. The unionist people (generally only unionists though) seem to feel that the political battle they are waging for union with RM is a battle which is felt in the hearts of all Moldovans. This is trash, only a minority of Moldovans favour a union with Romania. Moldova has many political, social, and economic problems which it needs to sort out before it will even seriously consider a union with Romania. There is also the problem of the large Russian and Ukrainian minority -- will they maintain their rights in a united Romania, or will they be forgotten about by the authorities in Bucaresti? And what about politics? Current politics in Moldova are surely incompatible with those in Romania. Yet, you romanticists fantasise about how wonderful it will be to have one nation with your Romanian brothers in Moldova, and somehow you think they all want the same thing. You need to be reacquainted with reality. -- Node
My poor Node, how little you understand us.
Let me enlighten you, my little child( albeit I hardly know where to start). Well for one thing, you really got the whole union thing wrong. Hardly anyone of us seriously conceives a union right now, at least a union in the sense that is understood by those who compare it with the 1918 union. Even IF a union would occur it would most likely be a confederal and loose one, but even that is very very long term.
Second of all, in the way you seem to argue your point, you actually DO SHOW that you DO HATE US ROMANIANS because you ultimately accuse "OUR LITTLE CROWD" of hating RUSSIANS. Let me make something very clear. Most of us have nothing against the regular Russian. The regular IVAN lived a life much like his Romanian/Moldovan counterpart( in other words a life under communism and terror). It is this Russian that we have a lot in common with. What we do hate, is the communists Russians. The ones that were implanted in Moldova after 1940. We make a very clear distinction between the Russians and Ukrainians who lived in Moldova prior to 1940 and have been born in that land and those who were send over by Stalin to persecute and terrorize the natives(regardless of their nationality). On top of that, lets not forget that in 1940 the native-Russians of Moldova(prior to 1940) were not that happy that Bessarabia(Moldova) was being occupied by the USSR.
You seem to talk about an "Imperialist Romania" that wants to CONQUER the Republic of Moldova and take all the Russians and Ukrainaians and kill them all or something. This in my opinion just shows how much YOU are, IN FACT, disconnected from reality. Did the Hungarians in Transilvania dissapear? Did their rights vanish? I would say they got more rights since right now their political party has been in government for the past 9 years. If some 1.5 mil. Hungarians have survived and managed to increase their rights, why would that be so hard for 200.000 Russians and 300.000 Ukrainaians?
I would go on and argue but I think I have pointed out the main flaws in your thinking, which by the way betrays the fact that behind the whole charade with the "Moldovan Language", "Moldovan Wikipedia", etc. etc. , there is a hidden hate for Romanians (since like I said again you believe that all Romanians hate all Russians). To put it bluntly, it is because of this totally negative, even racist mentality of yours that I think you should not be contributing on these matters.
Domnu Goie 07:53, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
Node for your own good buddy, stop talking cuz you are only making yourself look worst.
First of all the demonstrations in moldova in the early 90s were not about "pack your bags and go home" like some neo-communists like to claim. I don't know if you are a neo-communist yourself or if you just heard this from neo-communists but the demonstrations were for Moldovan-self determination. Hundreds of tousands of people took part and it was supported by a lot of people in mOldova.
Second of all, you say that "you can still discriminate without hating". NODE MAN! Just the fact that you, yourself aknowledge that it may be possible that you may discriminate while not hating( WHICH BY THE WAY MAKES NO SENSE) makes you an unacceptable contributor here.
Once again, you don't know me or "US" at all, Node.
Domnu Goie 23:26, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Mihai, do you dispute that contact linguistic phenomena occur in Moldova? The recent version of the article doesn't try to classify them as before, but rather leaves it open, with a suggestion that it may be bilingual code switching.
The examples I gave are not from a Russian manuscript, they are from real life. While there may not be previous literature about contact phenomena in Moldova (at least not which you consider credible since you hate Russians and think everything they write must be lies), there is literature about bilingual code switching. If you read that article, you will find that it is relatively common in situations where both participants in a conversation are bilingual, regardless of languages involved. Thus, it's not a separate theory or even a stretch to say that it occurs in Moldova -- it occurs in nearly every country on Earth, in any large bilingual community.
Just because your nationalism tells you to delete anything which suggests anything about RM may be even a little bit different, doesn't mean it's right. Do you have justification against these examples? Again, they're not from Soviet literature.
Node 06:20, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
Node, the infobox should be removed because you need to understand that Moldovan is not a "real" language and hence does not deserve an infobox. This article is more about describing the term "Moldovan language" than the actual language known as Moldovan. Therefore, it doesn't need an infobox. And even if it were to have an infobox, it is absolutely absurd to assert that Moldovan is the 36th most spoken language in the world with speakers all over Romania, Vojvodina, etc. Look at Montenegrin language and see that it also doesn't have an infobox. Again - Moldovan is a controversial term, it is not a real language and this article should only seek to explain what the term refers to, why it arose, and also the minor differences between Romanian and so-called Moldovan. As User:John Kenney put it, "The Moldovan language [under that name] is not spoken by people in Romania and the Vojvodina". For me, and I think for the majority of Romanians, it is insulting to suggest that the language I speak is called "Moldovan". Romania had nothing to do with the USSR and all that, and so just because of a Stalinist policy on calling the language "Moldovan", why should I now accept that my native language can also be called "Moldovan"? The would be like the Australian government calling their language "Australian" and saying in the article that "Australian is the most studied language worldwide and the international language of communication, Australian is the official language of the USA, UK and tens of other countries... oh, just that it's called English everywhere else". You can't say I haven't compromised, or that I haven't understanding or anything, but I think you're taking it too far now. By the way, the interwiki code for the Moldovan Wikipedia should be "молдовеняскэ (чириликэ)" not just "молдовеняскэ". I don't understand why it was changed from Moldoveana to "молдовеняскэ" and not to ""молдовеняскэ (чириликэ)" Ronline 07:11, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
You need documentation for what I erased. I erased it beacuse of a lack of documentation. If I say that I saw a big huge monster in a Scottish lake and I put this information on wikipedia as if it was a true fact, then it will be erased in 2 minutes since I have no proper documentation to prove it. Personal real-life accounts do not count. You need a legit. source.
The second aspect which I wanted to point out, Node, is for you to stop making new accounts. Let's all try to use just one. Creating new accounts and making it look like you are not the only one who thinks that the Moldovan is a language by itself, does not make you right.
Now I would very politely ask you to stop generalizing and discriminating. Goie is right, you know. By generalizing so much you will only get people irritated with you, not agreeing with you. You should follow your own example about the "flies and the honey". I noticed you do discriminate quite alot. I have never expressed my hate towards Russians here or in mo.wiki. I hate the concept of a "moldovan language" since it does not exist. I do not hate an entire people. I am not the one that called you a fag, Stalinist, etc. etc. Your homosexual orientation does not concern me. I am a libertarian and I have nothing against gays.
I just want you to know that if we cannot have a mature discussion here, I will really ask for this page to be locked.
Lastly, I will like to point out here that you agreed that you would make the moldovan versions in Moldoveneaska(Kirilika). You have not. This means that the deal which we all reached after the vote on jul 10, has been broken. We need a new vote and I have already reserved the right(as explained by Ronline) to call for one 45 days after the last vote. Mihaitza 01:20, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
Hi Ronline, I would like to explain my reversion of your edits. As Chris Sundita noted, his edits were an attempt at compromise, but you edited them right after and basically rolled back his changes without an explanation. Thus, I basically reverted to the last version which had been explained.
I think I agree with regards to Moldovan being spoken in Romania, but it's a difficult choice and will require some more thought on my part. -- Node 22:00, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
Talking about Dari and Farsi is probably a troll.
You don't need examples to show the obvious -- Romanian and Modovan are the same language, and this has to be said clearly.
Maybe you want to call it Moldovan Romanian (like American English?). Nevertheless, there clearly is a problem with this article. There should be an explanation saying that Moldovan is basically Romanian, with 1. the problem of the politics, which invented a moldovan language 2. the russian influence, and those "creole" expressions.
The article should start with this, because this is the most important problem concerning the language. It's not a regular language, you see...
While it is my personal opinion that spelling differences have no significant effect in this case, what is "significant" or not is 100% subjective.
I may view the independence of Moldova from the USSR as a "significant" event in the history of the world, but another person may say it's not significant. I may say that a hurricane caused "major" damage, but who has seen much worse might say it was not major. I might say that Celine Dion is a very important person, while someone else might say she is not important.
This is not the first time your group has attempted to squeeze in words which are subjective in ANY situation, claiming that in this particular situation they are fact rather than opinion.
I did not say "code switching makes a significant difference between language in Romania and language in Moldova". I could've said that, but I didn't because it is NOT OBJECTIVE, but rather entirely SUBJECTIVE.
Do you understand this concept now?? -- Node 05:23, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
(Thank you for the gentlemanly tone; moved the references and added comment in the section below -- Gutza 11:24, 5 August 2005 (UTC))
-- Node 09:27, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Hope you don't mind me splitting the references in a different section, I want to comment on them before I start hacking on the article. (I copied your sig above too, so we can continue to follow who said what.)
All references below provided by Node 09:13, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
I have to go to lunch, I'll be back. -- Gutza 11:06, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
So, let's talk on positive statements instead of negatives. What are your actual claims regarding Moldovan? You seem to insist it's a dialect in the references (just as American vs. British), but you push for a distinct language in the article? So where do you really stand?! -- Gutza 13:36, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Ok, let's talk on your claims, and include or remove stuff from the article based on the conclusion we reach here.
-- Gutza 22:26, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
You generalized the statement. And that's consistent with your acknowledged convictions. While I fully agree that some teens today may speak a creole, that's not even remotely the same with your "The spoken [Moldovan] language [...] could be called a creole since it is the native speech for some" -- you were careful to include "for some" at the end of the statement, but the meaning of the phrase is a sweeping generalization. -- Gutza 21:56, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Please, please, don't go on saying "have you been there?" or "have you been born there?" or "do you have relatives there?" -- it insults people's intelligence. Especially when immediately after "have you been there?" you come back with "all the reference books make it clear that". Now, don't draw the sword yet: you're probably right about this one. (This doesn't negate what I just said, the fact that you happen to be right about this one in particular --and that I acknowledge it instead of fighting it blindly -- doesn't mean that my observations are wrong.) But sorry, I'll revert the edit we were talking in the previous paragraph -- please rephrase it more sensibly instead of re-revering. -- Gutza 21:56, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
P.S. Gagauzia and Transnistria I can agree with, that's consistent with what I have read so far, but I'll temper down your statement about Chisinau, I don't think that's right, although I've read statements both ways. -- Gutza 21:58, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
P.P.S. You keep on forgetting to address your undocumented vandalism of the 2nd note -- care to explain which specific statements you don't agree with? -- Gutza 21:59, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Hello, John! Please note the current "Note #2" in the article as well (I acknowledge that the current version of that note is my version, and it's disputed by Node, see article history; Node didn't clarify the reason why he's constantly deleting the latter half of it though): the "minor ortographical difference" itself is a symbolic one, being the result of formal regulations, and not the result of how the language formed and/or evolved. Regarding the accent, you are right, there is a specific accent in Rep. Moldova -- the only hole in using this argument to convince anyone that Moldovan exists as a language is that the accent is uniform across the entire region called Moldavia (see map in that article for a visual cue on why that happens to be so). I'll grant it to Node that in Rep. Moldova they may happen to use more Russian loan words and more frequent code switching with Russian than we do in Romania, but that doesn't change the language, it's a natural effect of the region's history between the 1920's and the 1990's (Romanian deportation+encouraged Russian migration+forced Cyrillic alphabet+forced Russification+Stalin inventing a language). However, that didn't really succeed in creating a language, it just succeeded in making an ethnic injustice. -- Gutza 00:17, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
Of course I grant you that in RM they happen to use more Russian loanwords in Romanian. Even more, I'll also grant you that in the Western part of the country they use more Magyar loanwords in Romanian, just like in the South-Eastern part they use more Turkish loanwords in Romanian. I'm only curious why we need to call the Romanian spoken in the Eastern part by a different name, when similar processes with similar effects in the other regions don't call for such a distinction. -- Gutza 14:18, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
So, you're basically saying that
Surely you notice the circularity of this argumentation: "I'll prove that X exists by citing books that use the term X in order to prove it exists" -- replace X with "UFO", or "Bigfoot", or "telepathy" -- that's not very consistent and NPOV, is it? -- Gutza 20:49, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
A couple of points. 1) What is a language and what is not is a largely arbitrary division, but it is not a completely arbitrary one. Calling Palauan and Korean Japanese dialects, even if this has been done (I assume before 1945?), is simply absurd, because the languages are not at all related. Similarly, while people do call the languages spoken in south China dialects of Chinese, nobody calls Uyghur, Tibetan, Zhuang, etc. etc. "Chinese dialects" - or, if they did, they would be exposed to ridicule, and it would be perfectly fair to say this was an absurd idea, and simply wrong. Same deal if the French started calling Breton a dialect of French, if the Spanish called Basque a Spanish dialect, if Scots Gaelic were called an English dialect, and so forth. There are lines beyond which one cannot pass, at least in the case of calling a completely distinct language a dialect of another language. Whether the same can be said on the other end, I'm not sure, but calling Montenegrin or Bosnian, for instance, a separate language from Serbian seems to be coming pretty close to being ridiculous. What if we called American English and British English separate languages? If a POV warrior came onto wikipedia claiming this, would we have to give a language box for American English separate from the one for English?
2) As to the issue of Moldovan as a dialect continuum, I can't speak to this, since I don't speak Romanian or know very much about how people speak in Chisinau. That being said, you are very distinctly mixing two separate issues into one in order to present a stronger case for Moldovan as a separate language. On the one hand, there is the fact that the Moldovan constitution defines the official language of Moldova (which is identical to the Romanian of Romania, except with a small orthographical difference which seems to be no greater than that of "colour" and "color" between British and American English) as "Moldovan." But this "Moldovan language," which is, again, exactly the same as Romanian, is clearly not a separate language. On the other hand, you have the issue of Russianization of the Romanian/Moldovan spoken in certain parts of Moldova. I will assume that you are correct in your discussions of this phenomenon. But the fact remains that the existence of a Russian/Romanian creole (or, more likely, pidgin) in Chisinau and elsewhere is a separate issue which you are purposefully mixing in with the other to create confusion. The official "Moldovan language" of Moldova is identical to the "Romanian language" of Romania and Serbia & Montenegro (or do we have a "Voijvodinese language" in the latter?) The existence of regional variation is simply not related to this issue. john k 06:36, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
As you correctly noted, all the "differences" you list above are not actual differences, but rather preferences, correct within the language in both places (I do acknowledge they exist as preferences, but that doesn't change anything).
You say "Whether "Moldovan" is the proper name for the jargon or heavily Russian-influenced Daco-Romanian speech of urban Moldova or not is a matter that has already been decided very firmly by the experts. It is called "Moldovan" (some sources used "Moldavian" during the Soviet era) almost unanimously in the literature." -- but then again, Moldovan is also the official language of Rep Moldova, not only the "jargon or heavily Russian-influenced Daco-Romanian speech of urban Moldova", regardless of how firmly experts decided they want to talk about the jargon. The experts probably make it clear what they refer to, or maybe it follows logically from the context. But in this context, on Wikipedia talk pages, you seem to swicth between one definition and the other seamlessly, and it's quite confusing. I'm open to suggestions on how to identify what we're talking about, and how to make that clear in the article as well.
"The majority of [...] Romanians with national loyalty see Moldovans as peasants [...] on the periphery of Romanian society, and [...] the Moldovan language as a degraded, substandard slang which has “broken off” from Romanian." -- I want to clarify a couple of aspects regarding the quotation you chose, which clearly tries to make a case against Romanians:
-- Gutza 11:54, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
Oh, and since we're on the topic of differences, it would probably informative for john k to know that a huge chunk of the differences all these theories stand on are basically differences between modern Romanian and the Romanian spoken and written in Romania by the middle of the 20th century. In other words, the literary language they speak in Rep Moldova is almost 100% identical to the literary Romanian frozen in time for one generation. No huge surprise there, considering the historical perspective.
Now, in regard with your nauseating comparison between Romanian/Moldovan and Bosnian/Croatian, you seem to actively try to avoid the social issue: the majority of Romanians don't want Moldova to use or pretend to use a different language than Romanian, and the majority of Moldovans don't want to use or pretend to use a different language than Romanian (note the census data, and several other sources), so basically your views are in minority within the entire region. -- Gutza 18:38, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
What Romanians say is indeed less relevant, but it is relevant nonetheless -- not in a positive way, as you probably expect, but rather in a non-negative way: if Romanians said "we don't understand what the hell those guys are saying", then you'd have a stronger case for Moldovan. Alas, we don't. But saying that what Moldovans say is "partly irrelevant" is completely, but completely absurd, given the pillars you've used to build your entire position. Your entire argumentation is based on the fact that Moldovan exists because it is regulated by a body which calls it by that name. If a referendum was held in Moldova, and its results were consistent with the census data, and it was actually acted upon, then where would you be? The very fact that no referendum is held is the reason why so many people call this entire thing a political sham.
Regarding the fact that experts refer to Moldovan, come on! Ethnologue doesn't have a code for it -- it doesn't even have a page on it; the country studies by the Library of Congress say "[...] both Romanian written in the Cyrillic alphabet (that is, "Moldavian") and Russian were the official languages of the Moldavian SSR [...]"; and for God's sake, even the body regulating the Moldovan language, in its linguistics institute doesn't say it deals with the "Moldovan" language! I can provide you with two experts who doesn't take your claims seriously for every expert who supports you -- and then some. But do we really want to get into a spitting contest here? -- Gutza 18:20, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
Node, for me, at least, the key issue is that you seem to determined to, as Gutza puts it, move seamlessly between two separate definitions of "Moldovan language," and only to be willing to clearly distinguish them when you are called on it. If the article is to discuss both a) the official written language of Moldova; and b) the Russian-influenced Romance language spoken in urban areas in Moldova as the "Moldovan language," it must be made crystal clear that these are quite separate concepts. I do not know if you intend to create confusion here, and I apologize if in my previous remarks I implied that you were purposefully trying to be confusing, but the fact remains that you are creating confusion, and that you seem to be demanding that this confusion be maintained. I cannot see the value of eliding these two separate meanings of the term "Moldovan language" into one. john k 03:52, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
Node, what's your problem with that section? You may interpret it as nationalistic, because that's your own bias, but it's freaking true, those are historical facts you can read about in all history books and encyclopedias in the world -- including Wikipedia, in other articles. You may say it has nothing to do here, that could be a possibly valid point, but I think it's only fair to give people a little background on what happened in the region, for a better understanding of the current situation. I can't say I'm sorry that history didn't happen more to your liking, because that would mean Moldova would be undisputed Russian land, which it isn't. But hey, that's what happened, we can't change it now. Forbidding that information being there would be similar to Al Quaeda members opposing the data in Economy of the United States, on account of it being nationalistically biased -- indeed, it looks good for Americans, but it's still true true data, so it's still there.
If you want to contest the accuracy of the data in that section, or the way it is presented, I'd be happy to discuss it. But please don't revert without discussing. -- Gutza 18:20, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
Now, I just realized I never made myself really clear regarding this dispute. My basic claim is that Moldovan is not even a dialect of Romanian, but rather a regional variety (not sure about the terminology, IANA linguist), on the same level of difference as the Romanian spoken in Transylvania, Oltenia or Moldavia (similar with the differences between Texan and Californian, for whoever else reads this). The dialects of Romanian are Aromanian, Megleno-Romanian and Istro-Romanian, all of them a world away from Romanian in comparison with the Romanian language spoken in Rep Moldova. Moreover, I claim that spoken Moldovan is basically identicall in all aspects, including accent, with the language spoken in the Romanian part of Moldavia, with the only exception of having more Russian loanwords, and possibly few very non-essential regionalisms. Finally, I claim that the differences in writing between Romanian and the way Moldovan is regulated in Rep Moldova should not be categorized as a difference in spelling, but rather in ortography. A difference in spelling is the one between "color" and "colour", which resulted from the natural evolution of the language; the difference in writing between Moldovan and Romanian is simply an arbitrary matter of how the respective Academies regulated their written forms.
Color vs. colour:
Cât vs. cît:
Now, regarding the actual changes I'd like to see in these articles.
I was talking about the heading section, not about the first section. Specifically, I was talking about "Moldovan is considered by most people to be identical to the Romanian language" -- I'd like to see this reworded to "Moldovan is considered by most people to the Romanian language renamed for political reasons", or something similar. -- Gutza 16:33, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
I consider "Moldovan" exactly what it is: the official language of Rep Moldova, and nothing more. Since it's actually Romanian renamed, we can't discuss about Moldovan as being the "amalgamated" language, because that's not how the Moldovan Academy regulates the language -- or is it? We also can't talk about the "large degree of mutual intelligibility", because that's nonsense: speakers of the same language obviously understand each other. Of course, the census itself was biased, asking a trick question, in order to gain legitimacy for "Moldovan" as a distinct language from Romanian. Or maybe you can find a legitimate sense for those options? If you can't either, then maybe we should note this explicitly. -- Gutza 16:33, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
John k and I addressed this in the previous section, please see that thread. However, you didn't address the main issue in your reply, namely how we should find a consensus in presenting the census results. -- Gutza 15:12, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
So, let me know what you think. -- Gutza 20:49, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
Node, you keep on accusing Romanians of nationalism. That's subjective on your part, and more or less ad hominem -- you take advantage on knowing our ethnicity, and play on it. You're a self-declared Moldovan-born, IIRC. Can you tell us more on the topic of your ethnicity? Don't you think it would be fair if we also knew yours, in the context? Thank you for your honesty. -- Gutza 22:36, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Thanks. That's a good compromise. -- Chris 22:15, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
Node, you have a disturbing habit of inserting your comments before other people's -- that breaks the page and makes the "other people" look like idiots (Good compromise -- I disagree -- Ah, right -- Whew, great! (most people would think "what the hell is so great, are you stupid?")). Please try to keep the page comments in chronological order, even if that means that your comments end up after other people's, it's just the way it goes, it's not offensive or diminutive to what you want to say.
Back on topic. "Formerly" means that something was, and is no more the case. And that's precisely correct regarding this issue:
Last but not least, you probably failed to notice that the article opens with the very NPOV "Moldovan (Latin alphabet: limba moldovenească, Cyrillic alphabet: лимба молдовеняскэ)" -- so the information is readily available, in a very proeminent place in the article. The information about the current state of affairs on the other hand is buried in section 1.2 of the article.
Not enough for you, you need the Cyrillic version in the infobox too. Given that the name of the language is presented proeminently in Cyrillic in the very first words of the article heading, I wanted to remove it from the infobox. That's no good, you say. Ok, then I accepted a compromise where we re-iterate the name in Cyrillic in the infobox, but we give some sort of hint to the casual reader that the Cyrillic version is not official anymore ("formerly"). But no, you're not happy with that either, you need to have Cyrillic on exactly the same level with Latin within the article until the last possible place where it must be "accepted" that, well, actually, Cyrillic hasn't been official for the past 16 years! Doesn't 16 years qualify for "formerly"?
Hey, how about we remove Sections 1.2 and 3.1 altogether, and just link somewhere in the references to a page where we state that Cyrillic hasn't been official since 1989? What the hell, let's also remove the link from the references, name the explanatory article "Current status of the Moldovan language", and hope that the casual reader will find it using the Search button -- that would still preserve the same NPOV information, just in a different fashion, right?
Of course I'm aware my proposal is outrageously over the top and nowhere in the same ballpark with Node's position -- but I wanted to show that while the information is "there", and it's accurate, the presentation is important, and the presentation itself can be POV. In my opinion, in the current version of the article, the information is NPOV, but the presentation is POV -- the casual reader must not be led to believe that Latin and Cyrillic scripts are equal in regard with Moldovan, simply because it's not true, regardless of how many books or speakers or unrecognized states use it.
The current version of the first "screen" doesn't give any hint whatsoever that Cyrillic is not official anymore, but rather implies pretty strongly that the language is officially written in dual scripts (much strongly than a simple "formerly" would imply the opposite, since the name in Cyrillic was already obvious and proeminent -- no "formerly X" would be needed if "X" was not used by anyone anywere -- there's no "formerly Dacian" note on the Romanian language article, because it's not needed).
I'm open to suggestions on how to accomplish this goal, since the previous compromise obviously doesn't make everyone happy. -- Gutza 00:38, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
"You seem to think that the inclusion of both in the infobox implies that they are equal. If this is the case, then why is the Cyrillic text in a smaller font? In fact, I don't see how that's logical or NPOV, even though I added it that way, I'm going to make it larger now." -- way to go Node, there's a wonderful example of working towards compromise! "You seem to think X strenghtens my case. If so, then why Y, which in my opinion weakens my case? Right, let's remove Y then!" I'm honestly appalled.
Moldovan has been written in Latin officially for the past 16 years -- a generation of young people have completed their entire education, college included, using Latin script alone. The current version of the article makes no indication whatsoever in that direction for the casual reader, one really needs to go deep into the article to find that out. Furthermore, as explained above, although you're concerned that writing "formerly" before the Cyrillic name might imply something of the past, the lack of any indication whatsoever certainly implies something very much of the present. In other words, if we say "formerly", it's obvious that we're talking about relatively recent events (see my example with "formerly Dacian" in Romanian, which nobody would consider reasonable), whereas if we don't, there is simply no information available at all.
Again, I am open to alternate solutions, but my hope of reaching compromise with you is slowly fading away, after your appalling reaction to my previous comments. -- Gutza 12:32, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
Gutza called me over for my two cents. So here it is ..
One of the duties of a linguistics-related article is to describe a language. Linguists call this descriptive linguistics, this is opposed to prescriptive linguistics where people are told how to speak a certain way (this was English class for us Americans, you Romanians probably had a class for your own language). This is what using the "official" name is. It doesn't quite get the reality of the situation with Moldovan's writing systems. Yes, there is the government-sanctioned Latin alphabet, but that's not the whole story.
As an analogy, if for some reason tomorrow that the English-speaking world decided to use the Cyrillic alphabet, it would still be appropriate to list English along with Инглиш. Even after perhaps 15 or 20 years it would still be appropriate. There will still be people who still write and correspond with each other in the Latin script. And that is the case now with Moldovan.
Also, I usually concern myself with the languages of the Philippines. Only my native languages, Tagalog and English, are recognized as the official languages of the Philippines. My grandmother's language, Bikol is not official. Thus there's no "official" way of writing it. Latin script is the de-facto script. So, official is not possible. -- Chris S. 02:24, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
"In Chişinău, most strangers, even ethnic Romanians, address one another in Russian, despite the fact that Moldovan is official." I don't know what this is meant to say:
I'd like to rephrase it as to remove ambiguity, but don't know which way to. -- Gutza 08:14, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
Ahhh, yes, stupid me, I was thinking "foreigners" -- your intuition worked right. Yes, in the correct interpretation (people who don't know each other), I hear that's true, most people do actually try Russian first. -- Gutza 12:26, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
Of course, if we choose to take any other city but Chisinau as an example, or if we choose to take the countryside as an example, or any region in Moldova except Chisinau as an example, we'll reach the opposite conclusion. But then again, this is just FUD, it won't go into the article. -- Gutza T T+ 14:25, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
Yes, it does seem ironic at first glance -- but it's quite logical if you consider the context. I expect you don't contest the massive Russian "colonisation" of RM. In that context, I can't imagine many Russians leaving for another country (I expect that's what they felt, regardless of whether it was officially part of USSR or not) without some pretty strong incentives. Therefore I can't expect a conversation along these lines: "Go to a small village in an unknown country and work a menial job" -- "Hurrah! Let's all go!". Instead, I expect most of them landed in Chisinau, which explains the current state of affairs.
Since this is not going into the article, I won't go into an argument with you on the merits of your assessment of the situation. But just for the record, in case you interpret silence as agreement. "It has been said that requirements for Moldovan language education are a joke" -- I heard the opposite from Moldovans. "Russian-heritage kids will only learn good Moldovan at school if they go to a Moldovan or Turkish school" -- that's true, but the following is also true: "Russian-heritage kids will only learn good English at school in US if they go to an American school" (as opposed to a Russian school, where they are taught in Russian -- not hugely surprising in either case). Finally, "If we are to see Chisinau as an example, then we would surely decide that Romanian is in decline" -- how is that? In order to decide on a trend, you must judge a trend. But you're only judging the current state of affairs, which is most likely inherited from the USSR days. Do you have any figures showing the evolution of the Russian-speaking population to support your claim about the trend regarding the Romanian decline? -- Gutza T T+ 18:23, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
In Romania, instead of using code switching with Russian, like it is in Moldova, it is quite commonly used English. Well, I have a story related to this: some girl used my computer for reading her emails and unfortunatelly, she clicked OK on the browser's question on keeping password. Only later I realized that I had access to a email account of a Moldovan girl. Of course, it would be against my Wooster code of honour to violate someone's correspondence, but, sometimes we have to do it for the advance of science of linguistics. So, I analyzed the contents of some of her emails and was able to divide them in two categories: those that had a Romanian addressee were written in the usual Romanian with English phrases and words, while those that had a Moldovan addressee contained Romanian with Russian phrases and words. I found this rather amusing. :-)
Anonymously yours, 195.212.29.75 07:40, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
What is this 1.1 mil people? A whole article on the Maldabanian language? I am sorry but this is outragous. Ok, well I am gonna make an article on the "Beltsy" language and "Transnistrian/Prednestrovian" langauge. There simply is no Moldovanian langauge and if there is then that is certainly the same as the Romanian language. At most, this article should make a refference to the Romanian language article. Domnu Goie 18:08, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Please provide the translation of the examples. mikka (t) 23:09, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Which examples? You are not another anti-Romanian are you? damn where do you people pop up? PS: I am sorry if you ment something else and I misunderstood you. Domnu Goie 23:48, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
can i propose something?
I think I see where the problem lies. It's in the little green table there. How about this:
1) Under "Spoken in": we put it where it is spoken(essentially all places as romanian) 2)Under "Total speakers": we say 1.1 mil and in brakets we say 26 million if we consider romanian speakers as well. 3)Under "official language": we leave it the way it is. Mihaitza 07:29, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
See http://mo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page. This is probably the first case in which politics is used for creating a language version of Wikipedia. Oleg Alexandrov 17:00, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
Node_eu, I saw you added at the references section several links to blog entries or free homepages. Within the scope of Wikipedia, they are not valid references, as they are not reliable sources. See: Wikipedia:Reliable sources#Using online sources:
bogdan | Talk 19:41, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Most other differences in the official written languages are matters of punctuation. This includes, for example, using an apostrophe to mark elision rather than the hyphen used in Romania.
I'm not sure that it is a very common slang. I can find only two hits for the word "krasavitz" on the web (spelled "crasavic" there's none). bogdan | Talk 19:21, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
http://www.google.com/search?q=krasavitz&lr=lang_ro
A more important question about colloquial Moldovan is where information in the corresponding section comes from. I made some changes to the section. We need to find exact phrases used by people in Moldova. I, for one, never heard either "crasavic" or "kak deneok proshel" in Chisinau. Moreover, Russian words, whenever they are used in IM, IRC or anywhere else on the web are transcribed, they are never written in Cyrillic. So I deleted the sentence that stated otherwise.
Dmitriid
16:15, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Node, please explain your edit:
to
Do you dispute the fact that there is a linguistic consensus ? Anyway, using "most people" is against Wikipedia's policy. See: Wikipedia:Avoid weasel terms. bogdan | Talk 08:05, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
Wrong. See:
bogdan | Talk 17:09, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
It says "official written language". If you search for "cat" vs"cit" at .md, going by your results, a din a would be the official form, which it is not.
pîntece = burtă pleşuv/chelbos = chel ţintirim = cimitir pişca = ciupi mamcă/mancă = doică mai = ficat cute = gresie sudoare = năduşeală ciolan = os oghial = plapumă cori = pojar popuşoi = porumb hulub = porumbel rărunchi = rinichi moş = unchi curechi = varză omăt/nea = zăpadă
Those words exist in Romanian, too. They are synonims. Moş and unchi, however, are two different words. Learn the language before opening your mouth! And to see that you don't even dare to sign your post... but we all know who you are ;) -- Anittas 00:40, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
You don't even speak the language, you n00b. -- Anittas 05:19, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
Node, you said:
Show me one actual linguistic difference between Romanian, as used in Romania and Moldovan, as used on the official Moldova's government site. bogdan | Talk 07:02, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
Two users disallow me from using the source I have on Grigore Ureche by reverting the article. These users are user:Christopher Sundita and user:Node ue. I have tried to solve the conflict via ANI, RfA, RfM, and most recently, TINMC. A moderator directed me to this talkpage, where I'm supposed to first try and solve the dispute.
Here is the fragment that is being refused by the two users:
"The Moldavian chronicler, Grigore Ureche ( 1590 - 1647), established in his "Letopiseţul Ţării Moldovei" (The Chronicles of the land of Moldavia) that Moldavian (Moldovan) and Wallachian (Romanian from Wallachia) are essentially the same language; and that Moldavians and Wallachians share the same ethnicity."
The reasons for this refusion have been changed over time. I will bring them in chronological order, by the name of their author. I will, later, post the sources from where these reasons have been posted.
My comments: I never used that word in my fragment, and to this day, his complaint remains a mystery.
My comments: Sundita justified the reverting by saying that:
1. the source is too old; and
2. it's a POV statement
A source is allowed to be old. History, one could argue, is old - but that's a matter of perspective. Sundita further claimed that this was Ureche's point of view. Well, as a matter of fact, it was also the view of the Prince of Moldavia at the time; it was also the view of Dimitrie Cantemir; and it was also the view of those Moldavians, including Ioan Cuza, who united Moldavia with Wallachia to create Romania. And it was the point of view of most Moldavians, I would dare to say, until 1994 onward. And, to my great shock, even CIA Factbook shares that POV. See here: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/md.html#People
But enough of POVs. Let it be known that Ureche was a scholar who identified foreign sources that also, to our greatest scandal on this Wiki, shared that POV; mostly, Polish and Hungarian sources.
My comments: Node's mystery intensifies and we might have to archive his comments on a seperate page. We should name it: The X Files.
My comments: Who is creating that subpage?
My comments: Sundita repeats the age of the source and concludes that in this amount of time, languages can change. This is irrelevant. Let languages change whenever they want - I should still have the right to post a source. And if Sundita wants a more recent source, he can check CIA Factbook. Or, he can consult Encyclopedia Britannica:
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-42814?query=moldovan&ct=eb
During the Soviet period the Moldavian language (as it was then called) was written in the Cyrillic alphabet. Soviet scholars, mainly for political reasons, insisted that this language was an independent Romance language that was distinct from Romanian. In fact the differences between the two languages are of little significance and are confined to phonetics and vocabulary. In 1989 the script of the Moldovan language was changed to Roman; thereupon began a heated debate over whether the language should be called Romanian or Moldovan.
Or, Sundita could consult BBC!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/country_profiles/3038982.stm
Two-thirds of Moldovans are of Romanian descent, the languages are virtually identical and the two countries share a common cultural heritage.
Can we use those fresh and credible sources in the article, Sundita?
My comments: Sundita now says that the source is not reliable. May I ask why? I think the source is very reliable. As I said: the scholar researched the history of Moldova and its language, and of course, he noticed that Moldovan and Wallachian was essentially the same language, and so he drew that conclusion - the same conclusion that the rest agreed upon and the same conclusion that CIA, BBC, Britannica, and god knows how many other sources, agree upon. Wikipedia is the only exception.
Those reasons have been given by the two friends on the edit history of this page. It can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Moldovan_language&curid=226999&action=history
But the fun doesn't end here. At RfM, where I presented my case, Sundita came up with the same reasons, [ but just a bit different in their approach]:
My comments: Sundita is now no longer disputing Ureche's opinion. It's just that languages can change a lot under 400 years. I have already responded to this opinion, but Sundita then says that he's interested in knowing what linguists around the world have to say about this. Fine! Let's ask them!
Let's ask the INSTITUTE OF LINGUISTICS of Moldova. This is what they call their language:
"In the field of dialectology and linguistic geography, the cartography of the materials was continued, aimed at compiling a linguistic atlas showing the territorial distribution of lexical units peculiar to the Romanian spoken between the Pruth and the Dniester, the same as in more remote zones."
http://www.asm.md/institute/lingvist/index_en.htm
My comments: Republic of Moldova lies between the Prut and the Dniester, and as you can clearly read from the text, they call their language for Romanian. You may read the full article.
More examples: http://www.asm.md/institute/litfolc/index_en.htm
Some scholars even wrote books about this dispute; one of them is American scholar Donald Leroy Dyer who wrote "The Romanian Dialect of Moldova: A Study in Language and Politics". His CV: http://www.olemiss.edu/depts/modern_languages/Dyer.html
You can buy his book on Amazon.
If Ureche is not good enough, then perhaps the popular opinion of linguistics is good enough? But why should I have their permission to use a source? I want to hear their argument. You can await further excuses made by the two fellows, but know that neither of them speak either Romanian, or this Moldovan language that was given birth in 1994 - because before that year, the language was called Romanian.
Thank you! -- Anittas 23:51, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Durin#Revert_conflict
I gave him a chance. Also, I don't care what Russians call our language. Remember, I'm Moldavian, too, and we sometimes also say that we speak on Moldavian, but that refers to the regional accent. In all sources, but the Russian one, Moldovan is acknowledged to be the same as Romanian. But you don't speak either, so how could you know? Either way, all of this is irrelevant. The article is about the Moldovan language and I have the right to cite a source that is relevant to its topic. -- Anittas 05:22, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
Addentum: this is what it says about American linguistic Dyer:
Donald L. Dyer, AM'82, PhD'90, The Romanian Dialect of Moldova: A Study in Language and Politics (Edwin Mellen Press). Dyer examines the history of Soviet language policy in Moldova, where Soviet linguists attempted to create an independent literary language called "Moldavian." He focuses on the dialectal features of Moldovan Romanian and the relationship between the Romanian of Moldova and other regional languages.
And you say that he supports your ideas and then tell me to read his books? Thanks for the laugh, dude! http://magazine.uchicago.edu/9912/class-notes/books_ling.html
-- Anittas 05:45, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
I don't believe you've read that book. By reading your profile, you're Mr. Encyclopedia yourself. You know full well that Moldavia is the designition to refer to Romanian Moldova. The same is the same for both regions. And yes, it is irrelevant to call you a liar, but you were the one to bring up the off-topic remarks - not I. You should have stuck to the topic, not your personal problems. Anywhere you on the net, you will find that Moldovan is the same language as Romanian, with minor regional differences. Those differences are fewer than the difference between American English and Australian English, for example; but you don't see Australians wanting to make their own language. And I'll rather trust BBC, than some punk kid. -- Anittas 12:20, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
Users 195.175.37.38, 195.175.37.8, and 202.69.200.15 blocked for 24 hours for persistent insertion of a huge historical piece that says nothing about language. This text belongs to the history of Moldova/Moldavia. Please learn the rules of wikipedia during this time. Please get rid of your paranoia and learn to cooperate. Otherwise you will be blocked indefinitely.
Instead of calling names you have to explain in the talk page why you consider your changes relevant and important. I don't see any particular reason of addition of a huge historical passage that says nothing about language. For example, your "Greater Romania" addition will cause no objections in the History of Romania article (provided it is factually correct). mikka (t) 19:16, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
Alright, I'm unprotecting. If they continue to unconditionally revert, let me know and I can protect again. — BRIAN 0918 • 2005-10-31 12:24
To throw some cold water on these individuals here who keep throwing the word "
language" around:
African American Vernacular English is much more different from standard American
English than Moldovan is from Romanian (AAVE is grammatically different as well as lexically and phonologically different), but
AAVE is termed a
dialect. Clearly, there is no science at work here in this Moldovan case, just
politics. You can run your mouth all day, but that's the motive behind the
Moldovan language.
Alexander 007
11:02, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
The following lines are very accurate:
Moldovan is identical to
Romanian language
.
The following text is given for comparison in so called Moldovan and in Romanian, with an English translation. The English translation is only provided as a guide to the meaning, with an attempt to keep the word order as close to the original as possible.
As was presented above both "languages" are identical. It was proved that there is only one language:
romanian. 21.55,4.Nov.2005
Actually, what you say is crap. Â and Î stand for the same pronouncation. We used to write with Î, as well, but our scholars changed it back to how it once was in the 19th century. However, some people still write with Î in the middle of the sentences. And the real Moldovan, as you call it, is just an accent. Most of that accent is very strongly influenced by Russian, and this influence took place in the recent 20th century, under the Russian occupation. You can bring a Chinese guy to speak Romanian. Even if he speaks the language with a strong Chinese accent, it's still Romanian. -- Anittas 12:12, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
The example is crap for one simple reason: I have all reasons to believe that the phrase is written by a Romanophile. I am 100% sure that in Soviet times a Soviet linguist would have written the text in a completely different way. If a sufficient number of Chinese will speak Romanian under Romanian occupation, there is no reason not to recognize a separate Chimanian language or at least a dialect.
I genuinely don't understand what all this fuss is about. The article says prominently that Romanian and Moldavian are nearly-idedntical and the distinction in mainly political. Officially it is a "lanuguage," although most linguists would say it is rather a dialect. The fact that they are mutually intelligible is immaterial. In the same way, there are attempts among Russian nationalists to "prove" that belarussian and ukrainian language are dialects of Russian. These opinions are rightfully seen as Russian imperialism, and just the same, what is happening here has the ultimate goal to prove that Moldovans have no right for national identity. mikka (t)
The sentence read:
User:Node ue without specifying a reason, removed this clause:
Perhaps there is confusion on his part. Let me remind readers that in English, the clause "if only in the sense that" or "if only because" does not preclude or discourage other reasons. See for example this sentence from Edward O. Wilson:
-If you want to change the current sentence, figure something out besides a surreptitious deletion. Alexander 007 16:55, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
This is for Anittas and everybody else who says that colloquial Moldovan of which the article speaks is nothing more than an "accent".
Also, it's intended as a solution to the problem with "crasavic", which is not very often used as Moldovan, and the example as well.
Ahh, and in response to Alexandru's accusations of surreptitious deletions: that was part of a "mass reversion". It is because there was no single version between the one back to which I reverted and the most recent one before I reverted that I perceived to be POV, fair, factual, or whatever. It does not mean that I am willing to fight to the death over every single section that got reverted. So, while I personally think it is a bit strange to say "if only because", I really don't care much about that particular edit. -- Node 19:25, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
Yes, I've seen how different Moldovan is from Romanian: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Moldovan_language&curid=1237811&diff=27756358&oldid=27754034#Language_-_Comparison_with_Romanian
-- Anittas 01:39, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
If you go by phonology, you will find several regional differences in all of Romania. Just like you find differences when Irish, Scots, English, American, or Australians speak the English language. As for the syntax, it's the same. -- Anittas 05:35, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
No, I'm not going to re-enter this dispute, since this would mean wasting my time, but just for fun, I'll post a link to how this article should be like, if there were no POV-pushers. There is a consensus in the linguistic world, but it appears that in here POV is misunderstood and opinions are valued as much as the scientific consensus. Have fun with this page. bogdan | Talk 16:09, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/1091/moldovan1qp.png
taken from Price, Glanville. Encyclopedia of the Languages of Europe. ISBN 0631220399; Blackwell Publishers, Oxford, UK; April 2000
"The name 'Moldovan language' (in Russian, МОЛДaВCKИЙ ЯЗБIK 'moldavskii iazyk'); in Romanian, limbă moldovenească, or, in Cyrillic characters, ЛИMбЗ MOЛДОBeНЯCKЗ was applied in the Soviet Union, as during earlier periods of Russian occupation of the area in question, to the * Romance language used in the Moldavian Soviet Socialist Republic (corresponding more or less to the formerly Romanian territory of Bessarabia, annexed by the Soviet Union in 1940). In reality, 'Moldavian' is nothing else than the *Romanian language as spoken in Moldavia, i.e. both east of the river Prut in Bessarabia (now the Republic of Moldova) and west of the Prut in that part of the former province that remains as part of Romania. Claims made in the post-Second World War period by the Soviet linguists that 'Moldavian' should be recognized as a distinct Romance language were not taken into seriously by western scholars. Under Soviet domination, the *Cyrillic alphabet was in the use in the Moldavian SSR until the passing of a law on 31 August 1989 (i.e. before the break-up of the Soviet Union) proclaiming Moldavian as the official language of the Republic and the use of Latin script. Apart from a few lexical differences (mainly technical terms borrowed from Russian rather than, as in standard Romanian, from western languages), the written language was thenceforth indistinguishable from that in use in Romania and moves are afoot to harmonize the technical terminology of Moldova with that adopted in Romanian specialized dictionaries. After the Republic of Moldova declared its independence of the Soviet Union in 1991, its Constitution (1994) declared that the official language was limba moldoveneasca 'the Moldavian language'. At the time of writing, moves to have this amended to 'limba română' the Romanian language have not yet succeeded.
Heitmann, K., 1989, Moldauisch. In Holtus, G., Metzeltin, M. and Schmitt, C. (eds), Lexicon der Romanschinen Linguistik, Tübingen, vol 3. 508-21.
GLANVILLE PRICE" Bonaparte talk & contribs
Others except the Russian are in the same manner. All the western powers refuse the russification attempts. Bonaparte talk & contribs
I am not an expert in the topic, and I decided to verify some statements recently added. To my sorrow, I found that diligence of contributors here is way below acceptable. I am speaking about plain wrong facts from near history, not opinions. Therefore I decided to stay an anti-romanian anti-semitism vandal for a while and I will be removing all new additions presented without references that will look suspicious to me. mikka (t) 07:30, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
A Constitution is a system, often codified in a written document, which establishes the rules and principles by which an organization is governed. In the case of nation states, this term refers specifically to a national constitution, which defines its nation's fundamental political principles and establishes the power and duties of each government. So far so good. Let's read the romanian and the moldovan constitution, after all, a constitution is written in the official language of the states, isn't it so?
![]() |
Romanian
![]() |
English |
---|---|---|
TITLUL I: Principii Generale | TITLUL I Principii Generale | FIRST TITLE: General Principles |
Articolul 1
Statul Republica Moldova |
Articol 1 Statul român | Article 1 (Romanian/Republic of Moldova State) |
(1) Republica Moldova este un stat suveran şi independent, unitar şi indivizibil. | (1) România este stat naţional, suveran şi independent, unitar şi indivizibil. | (1) Romania/Republic of Moldova is a national, independent, unity and undestructible state. |
2) Forma de guvernămînt a statului este republica. | (2) Forma de guvernământ a statului român este republica. | (2) The form of the guvernment of the state is republic. |
(3) Republica Moldova este un stat de drept, democratic, în care demnitatea omului, drepturile şi libertăţile ... | (3) România este stat de drept, democratic şi social, în care demnitatea omului, drepturile şi libertăţile ... | Romania/Republic of Moldova is a state of low, democratic, in which the human dignity, rights and liberties... |
[ [1]] | [ [2]] | Links to the official page of Constitution for both countries |
Bravo, Bonaparte! Yes, so many coincidences, here. Similar language, similar flag, similar constitution, similar traditions... -- Anittas 20:26, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Contrary to raging romanists, it was recognized in Soviet Union that moldavian is (or based on, or evolved from, etc.) a dialect of Romanian. This was written, e.g., in Great Soviet Encyclopedia (if my memory serves me well). The fact that some overzealous lingusts tried to prove than moldavian is slavic (btw, I don't see any references) says nothing. Much garbage is always being written in all countries at any times, and that was far from being officially supported doctrine.
Once again, a language variety is called language or dialect often by purely political or nationalistic reasons, and no amount of fist waving and shouting can prove or disprove one position or another. The same happens, e.g., with Arvanitic language (I happened to look recently into); some people insist that there is no such thing as Belarusian language. Look at the Balkanization of Yugoslavia, where each mountain seems to declare itself a separate ethnicity, with its own language, and who probably think that Moldovans are crazy morons who struggle to disappear. mikka (t) 21:11, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
AFAIK almost all of them were repressed. Are their names remembered? mikka (t) 07:44, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
While in general wikipedia works fairly well, I am appalled by by the maliciousness with which Node systematically changes various contributions, meaning that the bulk of the effort goes into reverting his vandalism. This takes several forms, from changing a word to change the sense of a sentence, to removing entire pans of text. The latter seem to be very difficult to revert, because it's not a simple rv operation if other contributions came in the meantime. Isn't there any way text can be protected from these abuses? It seems to me that Node is the only "contributor" I find not reasonable, and I saw in the discussion page that I am not alone. I would propose, if possible, that some other user (any other regular contributor to this page) filters his contributions. Is this possible? If not, I would like to file a vandalism report or require some arbitration. Is someone here sustaining a collective action? User:Dpotop
To those who genuinely don't understand what is this deleted text comparison about: Suppose I put side by side books in English grammar printed in California and in England as a "proof" that there is no such thing as American English. Refusing that Moldavians have their own dialect is simply against any historical common sense. It was only for political reason named "language". mikka (t) 01:53, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Node, you are not a linguist, either. And stop hating me, please. I'm not a girl! -- Anittas 01:50, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
My interests does not lie in pop music. If you check my main page, you will see that I've only started two articles on music artists. The rest are about history, literature, etc. You are not a linguist and I don't believe you have a Ph.D in anything. You are not more qualified than anyone else. And tell that to your magnificent friend, Sundita. -- Anittas 14:09, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
<insults removed>. Bonaparte and Annitas blocked for 24 hours for continuing exchange of insults. I warned you here. You know the policies. Either you calm down or you will be blocked for good. mikka (t) 21:12, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello, User:mikkalai. It seems that the compromise reached in the previous section does not hold. Guess why? Because User:Node ue decided to change it. I am now waiting for you to intervene. If not, I belive I have the needed proof to require the intervention of other editors. As you saw, I was really open to discussion, but now I am really bitter. User:Dpotop
Again, for User:mikkalai. I still wait for an explanation onto why User:Node ue has not been blocked along with the other. The decision didn't seem fair, given that he used obscene words (and that he started the fight). This shouldn't have been necessary, but it seems you did not understand what those "moldovan" words mean. They are in fact russian slang in Latin script: http://www.russki-mat.net/e/K.htm . User:Dpotop
User Anittas and Bonaparte talk & contribs have been blocked illegal and in the most abusive way by the user Mikkalai. It was outrageous the usage of such a manner! Was not fair at all! Here we bring arguments, facts, examples and you bring only your force argument! We will require the intervention of other editors. Bonaparte talk & contribs
There exists not a State of Transnistria since is not internationally recognized. It must be accepted a neutral point of view like the OSCE see also the link[ [5]]. To state in the first paragraph that the Moldovan Transnistrian Republic exists is too much. There is no republic without a State and officially is not recognized by any country. A state is an organized political community occupying a definite territory, having an organized government, and possessing internal and external sovereignty. Recognition of the state's claim to independence by other states, enabling it to enter into international agreements. Anyway the status of the region is still in negotiation. Bonaparte talk & contribs
You can say that Transnistria is a de-facto independent state. Why do you care, Bonaparte? People still talk about a reunion between Basarabia and Romania, while Transnistria goes to Russia or Ukraine. We don't want that curse. Let them have it. -- Anittas 14:11, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
I think the "spoken language" section does not belong here. This article is about a "language" spoken by "1.2 million". The vernacular is spoken by most Moldovans and is obviously not identical to the official language. bogdan | Talk 13:11, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
I am willing to allow paralell examples, given that the following example is used (from Dyer, 1998):
Moldovan File:FlagOfMoldova.png | Romanian
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English |
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E sărbătoare azi, nu plînge, mamă! Pot să fac prinsoare pe tot ce vreţi că nimeni pe lume n'a fost mai bucuros de zilele calde şi luminoase ce să aşezara la noi după sărbătorile paştelui ca mine Motl, băiatul lui Peişi-cantorul şi viţelul vecinului, caruia toţi îi zic Meni (acest nume i l-am dat chiar eu). Amîndoi odată am simţit cele dintîi raze mîngîietoare ale soarelui în prima zi caldă de după paşti, amîndoi odată am prins miresmele primelor tirişoare de iarbă verde ce mijeau din pămîntul de curînd dezgolit şi amîndoi odată ne-am tîrît afară din vizuinile noastre ntunecoase, pentru a învălui cu privirea prima dimineaţă alinătoare, caldă şi senină a primăverii...; amndoi la fel am dat buzna din bârlogul negru ca noaptea, n ogradă să cinstim cum se cuvine cea dintâi zi dulce, sclipitoare de primăvară... | Azi e sărbătoare, mamă, azi nu se cade să plângi! Pun rămăsag cu voi, pe cât vreţi, ca nimeni pe lumea asta n-a fost atât de fericit în ziua întâia după Paştic—a mine, Motl Peişiul cantorului şi Meni, viţelul vecinului (numele ăsta de Meni, eu i l-am dat!). Amândoi la fel am simţit cele dintâi raze calduţe ale soarelui; amândoi, la fel am adulmecat mireasma celui dintâi fir de iarbă care mijea din pământul abia scuturat de zăpadă; amndoi la fel am dat buzna din bârlogul negru ca noaptea, n ogradă să cinstim cum se cuvine cea dintâi zi dulce, sclipitoare de primăvară... | Today's a holiday, mama, please don't cry! I shall bet with you, on as much as you want, that nobody in this world was as happy as me, Motl the cantor's son, and Meni the neighbour's calf (I've given him this name). Both of us felt the same first comfortingly warm rays of sunshine, both of us sensed the fragrance of the first blades of green grass which had appeared from the earth and was just uncovering itself from the snow, both of us crept out of the dark den, into the courtyard to glorify the first comfortably restfully warm and peaceful days of spring... |
So, what do you say? Unlike Bonaparte, I used a real source instead of just making it up. And it's not a Russian source either -- they're both from the recent (1998) work of Donald Dyer, an American expert on Eastern Romance languages and politics of Moldova. -- Node 20:04, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
I say Nay, for what is said there in "Moldovan", could also be said in Romanian. They just use synonyms and other means to express them selves. Look at the first sentence; in Moldovan it says "E sărbătoare azi" and in Romanian it says "Azi e sărbătoare". What a joke! You can say either way, in either language! Nice try, Russian! -- Anittas 21:00, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
A citation is a reference to a book, including page number after each fact. This is not necessary in most cases, but in here, as this is a very disputed article. bogdan | Talk 00:20, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
The text as I see it is 100% of user Node ue and belong to him. He can't attack himself can he? So I say to let on the page, he posted not us, he is "entity made of pure energy", not us. Otherwise I say to vote. Bonaparte talk & contribs
Anonymous user, Node_ue, Bonaparte... We're getting nowhere.
I'm thinking of how to make a version acceptable by both sides, but I think that is a tough job. :-) bogdan | Talk 22:29, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
I am not going to play games here. Bonaparte blocked for one week for escalation of personal engagement after second warning. mikka (t) 22:54, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
The k/sh/tz spelling on SMS / IM / Internet is the same as in Romania, so it's not a Moldovan-only feature. bogdan | Talk 23:18, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
Well, after this might fighting, I thought we should open a more light-hearted topic so that people can relax a bit. I thought, why not gather all the guys and talk about women! I'll start first. I like women to be natural (not much make-up) and I like them to be feminine, but not submissive. To use an example, I think Angelina Jolie is cool. What about you guys? -- Anittas 00:52, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
Well, after this fighting, I figured it might help unwind a bit if we all talked a bit about G-d and our common cultural heritage through Judaism. I think we should start with our denominations. I am reform, but non-practicing and really consider myself an atheist. So, are you guys Reform, Conservative, Orthodox...? And what ethnic group? I'm Ashkenazic. -- Node 02:35, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
Please cut it, take a break and read what talk pages are for. Chat boards would be a better place for this stuff. mikka (t) 02:59, 14 November 2005 (UTC)