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I want to include this sentence: Also, Moldova aspires to join European Union and NATO. Is there such a bid deal to include in the text? -- Tones benefit 09:19, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Let's add this Moldova has never existed as an independent political entity within its present borders. -- Tones benefit 19:42, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Because we know that until 1812, the area between the Prut and Nistru Rivers was neither considered a distinct territory of the Moldovan principality, nor had a particular name. The original region known by the name of Bessarabia was the swath of territory between Danube and Dnestr and washed by the waters of Black Sea. The area came to be known as the land of the Basarab dynasty, or Basarabia, after that the Walachian prince Mircea cel Bătrîn (the Old, 1386-1418) of the Basarab dynasty had wrested the region from the Tatars. The reason to expand the name of Bessarabia over the entire part of Moldova between the Prut and Nistru, north as far as the fortress at Hotin, was of a political nature. In keeping with the 1807 French-Russian Tilsit Treaty, Russia pledget to withdraw its troops from Moldova and Walachia, obligation that was not fulfilled. In the subsequent negotiations in 1908, the Russian representative showed that the Tilsit Treaty did not mention anything about Bessarabia, interpreting its name in a larger sense, and insisted that it remained to Russia. -- Tones benefit 19:45, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
In the past days, this article was subject to a lot of small edits that are both POV and not in English [1]. A lot of them are also irrelevant to this article, and there is a link to an article that, given rules outlined in the MoS, should perhaps not have been created, and itself look awful. Who has the energy to deal with this? Dahn 14:54, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
I find the addition of the sentence discussed here ("Moldova has never existed as an independent political entity within its present borders") to be rather absurd. Not only does this go for most states of the Soviet Union, for virtually any state in Africa, for many states in Asia etc., but, hell, if taken for its exclusive meaning ("having those exact borders") it also works for countries such as post-1945 Germany or Italy etc., as well as for both post-1918 Romania and post-1945 Romania. As for an independent state which Moldova can (and probably does) cite as a precedent, leaving aside Moldavia for various reasons, you have the Moldavian Democratic Republic... it may not have been "within those borders", but it was surely not "outside those borders". Dahn 16:16, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
Reading the second paragraph, I couldn't get if Moldova is or is not part of NATO. Am I misreading or the text need to be improved?-- ClaudioMB 05:32, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
looks as though some Vandalism has gotten off here. I'm afraid I don't know the real motto of Moldova, but it needs to be corrected.
68.110.10.11 17:00, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Any objections if there's a selective archiving of the stale Mauco + Mark Street + Truli sockpuppet et al. diatribes to get this down to legitimate article discussions? PētersV 01:13, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
Look, the name of the official language in Moldova is called Moldovan. No one disputes that. What others and I want to do is to refer to the status of the Romanian language as taking part of the official language, as according to the Moldovan legislation. If Moldova wants to repell that standing, then they should get rid of the laws that contradict their current laws. If, however, they choose to go with a double message, then so should we. Therefore, I suggest that we make it clear that Romanian is not to be counted as the official name of the language, but as some kind of substitute. As I have said before: if you guys disagree with presenting the role of the Romanian language, then we should also get rid of the footnote, because it has the same function as adding the name there; the difference being that it is a bit unclear. To remove the footnote, however, would be a biased thing to do and against the policy. I suggest that we write in parenthesis the following (Romanian under the old legislation). Yes, I know it's a bit long, but it's the best thing I could think of. I think we should agree on such a compromise. It's both accurate and reasonble. -- Thus Spake Anittas 13:26, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
- Anitta, your argument is not clear, pease be more precise and give sources and links (see like I did, for example) Moldopodo 10:07, 1 November 2007 (UTC)Moldopodo
Official language [4] From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
An official language is a language that is given a special legal status in the countries, states, and other territories. It is typically the language used in a nation's legislative bodies, though the law in many nations requires that government documents be produced in other languages as well. Official status can also be used to give a language (often indigenous) legal status, even if that language is not widely spoken.
Constitution of the Republic of Moldova Article 13. The National Language, Use of Other Languages |
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(1) The national language of the Republic of Moldova is Moldovan, and its writing is based on the Latin alphabet. |
(2) The Moldovan State acknowledges and protects the right to preserve, develop and use the Russian language and other languages spoken within the national territory of the country. |
(3) The State will encourage and promote studies of foreign languages enjoying widespread international usage. |
(4) The use of languages in the territory of the Republic of Moldova will be established by organic law. |
Anitta, you seem not to know Moldavian laws. If you agree with Wikipedia definition of official language, please exlain how you don't see other languages holding official status? It is a rather strange and contradictory conclusion to my mind.
Anittas, could you explain, why do you change Moldavian to Moldavian/Romanian, whereasm no such mention in Moldavian legislation exists.
Anittas, when you go to the Russian version, in the upper left corner it says "Varianta în limba de stat" this is not an argument, as I have explicitely cited relevant laws and Constitution of the Republic of Moldova.
Anitta, please stop doing these controversial intentional edits with no justification, as I have all reasons to report you. Moldopodo 10:41, 1 November 2007 (UTC)Moldopodo
This page has been protected for edit warring. All facts require verifiable reliable sources which you need to cite. Removal of sourced information without a good reason is disruptive. -- Haemo 19:00, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
/see here full text
Let's try this again (prior comment replaced). What is the point of extensively quoting something which talks about a pile of "official" languages (meaning you can conduct official business in that languge) which are then guaranteed to get translated into Russian for official promulgation/archiving/etc. within the context of the USSR authorities? The Soviet Union is dead the last time I checked.
PētersV
19:50, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
P.S. Just checked again to make sure. Still dead. PētersV 19:52, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Maybe somebody didn't bury her in time... seems like it started to stink. -- AdrianTM 20:09, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
My dear Moldopodo, my "do not understand" comment (deleted) was merely a brief moment of levity and laziness. That moment passed, replaced by curiosity. I'm perhaps not quite as inept as I protest (and I really do know some Pushkin by heart)--I do reasonably well with a couple of machine translators and a good dictionary. And so, my good-faith reading is that: "Moldovan" is the official language (Latin script, ergo Romanian by any other name). As for the rest, both Moldovan (official) and anything else you use for conducting your affairs (short list of other languages in certain parts of the ССР) will be translated into the true mother tongue of the СССР, Russian. And, of course, since the СССР is a polyglot union nurturing every language and ethnicity, you can conduct your national (as in a people) cultural affairs in whatever language you like--any language used anywhere in the СССР is just fine and dandy. (Ah, if only the Soviet Union had conducted its affairs in accordance with its own constitution, it's quite a magnificent document! A conversation for another time.) I have to interject, so what? Every language got translated into Russian for the (Soviet) record. Every language was respected constitutionally. That does not make any of those languages "official." This document makes it quite clear the only official language is Moldovan, even while Moldova was still a ССР (but feeling its oats, as the expression goes). Contending the document in question promulgates a wide range of "official" languages is completely not what the document says, it's only Latin script Moldovan: "государственным языком Молдавской ССР является молдавский язык, функционирующий на основе латинской графики". You can't miss it (it's even bolded).
Contend something is official because an official document does not say something is explicitly unofficial... well... that's not dissimilar to Anonimu's argument that the proof that the Soviet Union did not occupy Romania is because there are no scholarly sources written about the fact that the Soviet Union did not occupy Romania, only writers of fiction are compelled to put pen to paper (that is, since all scholarly sources do indicate the Soviet Union occupied Romania, those sources all lie since no one bothers to write about what is obviously true). Historical syllogism or constitutional syllogism, it's still a syllogism. PētersV 14:21, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
A side note, stepping away from the "debate" (Moldopodo's misreading, I'm afraid) for a moment... The reason for the guarantee of translation into Russian was, of course, to insure that Big Brother Moscow could watch over you by having copies of all records in Russian. This even extended to historical records on an as-requested basis. For example, say you lived in the U.S. and you needed the certificate of birth for your grandfather, on file in Straseni. You speak Romanian, the record is in Romanian. No, you do not get a "copy"--as in facsimile or transcription. You get the product of the following process:
P.S. Thanks to Illythr for the confirmation the law is still in force. Obviously anything with reference to the СССР has ceased effectiveness with the death of the Soviet Union. Although, to AdrianTM's point, perhaps one of those hermetically sealed Father of the Soviet Peoples fishbowls has developed a leak! PētersV 14:21, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
An official language is a language that is given a special legal status in the countries, states, and other territories. It is typically the language used in a nation's legislative bodies, though the law in many nations requires that government documents be produced in other languages as well. Official status can also be used to give a language (often indigenous) legal status, even if that language is not widely spoken.
I am sure you can make the necessary conclusions from this simple and clear definition. Should you have any problem, I am ready to help you. As for the draft, I think we should drop it, as we do not know about which draft we are talking, when, by whom it was prepared and what was in it, as no source from you is provided on this either. Moldopodo 21:45, 2 November 2007 (UTC)Moldopodo
I'd like the following text to be inserted into Human Rights of this article, but cannot edit it now:
The gay rights in Moldova are also in lack of respect in Moldova. Much criticism has ben made towards unfair treatment of homosexuals in the country.
Mikael Häggström 12:20, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Trying to erase the words Romanian from this article sounds like Russification promoted by Voronin in 2007.---- Cezarika f. ( talk) 20:16, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
1) Please, stop adding Romanian to the official name of the language which is Moldavian. It is clear that Moldavian and Romanian are one and the same language, however, one has to stick with the official legal documents as Constitution and the laws of the Republic of Moldova, and they call the language Moldavian.
(Shane) I agree with that - there is truth and there are encyclopedias. They should be as close as possible. But it's not always possible! So stick to official _moldavian_ documents! (Cheers, Shane)
The day the article 13 of the Constitution of the Republic of Moldova and the relveant laws will be changed and the language will be officially called Romanian, I will be the first to change it on Wikipedia as well. The same applies to Russian, Ukrainian and Gagauz. The day these languages will dissapear from the Constitution and the relavant laws of the Republic of Moldova, I, and everybody else, will most certainly agree that there is only one official language in the Republic of Moldova - Romanian. Today this is not the case, moreover, no Moldavian legally binding document even allows for such an interpretation. Also please, stop erasing references to these legal documents.
2) For clarification of the fact that Romanian and Moldavian is one and the same language, please use the relevant pages. There are only two pages which allow for this explication: Moldavian language and Romanian language. When an official reference to the used language in Moldova is made, like in the infobox for example, only Moldavian can be put there, as this is how it is called in the official legal documents of the Moldavian Parliament: Constitution and laws. It is useless to add everywhere "slash - Romanian". None of the Moldavian legal documents names the language this way. However, once clicking on the Moldavian language, the reader wil be redirected to the Moldavian language page, where the identity between these two names should be explianed.
3) Please stop erasing that Russian, Gagauz and Ukrainian are official languages in the Republic of Moldova. It is not a matter of debate either, as these are the provisions of the Constitution of the Republic of Moldova and of laws of the Republic of Moldova. I do not see any need for their interpretation or debate on them. These are clear legal provisions and it is useless to erase them in the first hand, and to erase after Russian, Ukrainian and Gagauz.
Thank you. Moldopodo ( talk) 17:30, 18 November 2007 (UTC)Moldopodo
1) Fortunately, in the case of Russian, Ukrainian, and Gagauz, they already do not appear in the Constitution as official, so there is no ambiguity about the fact that they are not official languages of Moldova. Quoting from the Constitution: "The national language of the Republic of Moldova is Moldovan, and its writing is based on the Latin alphabet. (2) The Moldovan State acknowledges and protects the right to preserve, develop and use the Russian language and other languages spoken within the national territory of the country" Of course, it's clear that to protect is by no stretch of the imagination the same as declaring them to be official. TSO1D ( talk) 17:41, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
An official language is not to be confused with a national language, although the national language may be official if given legal recognition by the government.
2) Actually this isn't fully accurate. Some ministries exclusively use the term Romanian. Look at the Ministry of Education for example www.edu.md. This is an important reason why we have decided to include the name Romanian in the infobox alongside the Constitutional name. Please see past discussion of this page for further information if you are interested. TSO1D ( talk) 17:41, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
Articolul 8. Limba de predare Statul asigură, conform Constituţiei şi articolelor 18, 19 şi 20 din Legea cu privire la funcţionarea limbilor pe teritoriul Republicii Moldova, dreptul de a alege limba de educare şi instruire la toate nivelurile şi treptele de învăţămînt. Dreptul cetăţenilor la educaţie şi instruire în limba maternă se asigură prin crearea numărului necesar de instituţii de învăţămînt, clase, grupe, precum şi a condiţilor de funcţionare a acestora. Studiul limbii de stat a Republicii Moldova este obligatoriu în toateinstituţiile de învăţămînt. Cerinţele faţă de predarea şi însuşirea ei sînt reglementate de standardul educaţional de stat. Responsabilitatea pentru asigurarea procesului de însuşire a limbii de stat în toate instituţiile de învăţămînt o poartă Ministerul Educaţiei şi Ştiinţei şi autorităţile administraţiei publice locale. Also in the menu the language selection says "MD" (which stays for Moldovan), and even the flag do designate the language is Moldavian (with a black dot symbolizing the eagle, to make sure the difference is seen with Romanian). Is thi what you were referring to? Moldopodo ( talk) 18:20, 18 November 2007 (UTC)Moldopodo
3) I fully agree with you. There is no ambiguity here and this matter is explicitly addressed in the Constitution. Please see my comment above or look at the Constitution for additional information. TSO1D ( talk) 17:41, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
By the way, Moldopodo, since you said that you trusted Britannica's content, please look at how they dealt with the subject. Under the category of "official language" they have:
Britannica: "Official language:Romanian". I believe that this concise line addresses all of your concerns.
TSO1D (
talk)
18:22, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
Both Moldopodo and Cezarica (and the anon IP), please stop. We've had enough edit wars without you here. Dpotop ( talk) 20:21, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
EVEN IF THE STATEMENTS ARE REFERENCED!!! Furthermore, he gives no explanations to his deletions of referenced material (even from official sites).
I believe that if I confront him directly he will gravely abuse of administrative rights (I had to deal with his abusive before) and block me. I expect him to delete my edits too. Please somebody take care of this situation.
An example of deletion in the foreign relation section: "In 1st of October 2007, foreign minister of Moldova, Andrei Stratan, said at UN that Russian troups are in Republic of Moldova against the will of Moldovan Government. Reiterez, cu acest prilej, poziţia Republicii Moldova, potrivit căreia îndeplinirea angajamentelor asumate la Istanbul în 1999 de Federaţia Rusă, ale căror trupe staţionează pe teritoriul Republicii Moldova, contrar voinţei ţării noastre, va crea premizele necesare pentru ratificarea şi punerea în aplicare a Tratatului FACE Adaptat"
Nergaal ( talk) 02:57, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
I strongly suspect that User:Nergaal and user:Cezarika f. are fresh socks of user:Bonaparte. `' Míkka >t 03:00, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
The article has been tagged as disputed several hours ago and 1h and 18mins later a Russian administrator comes to solve the dispute??? This is obviously a dispute between a pro-Russian point of view and a pro-Romanian point of view. Therefore an OBJECTIVE solution to this dispute cannot be found by bringing a Romanian or a Russian user/administrator, or a friend of such a user. Disputes should be solved by impartial users/administrators! Thank you. Nergaal ( talk) 03:41, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
"In 1st of October 2007, foreign minister of Moldova, Andrei Stratan, said at UN that Russian troups are in Republic of Moldova against the will of Moldovan Government. Reiterez, cu acest prilej, poziţia Republicii Moldova, potrivit căreia îndeplinirea angajamentelor asumate la Istanbul în 1999 de Federaţia Rusă, ale căror trupe staţionează pe teritoriul Republicii Moldova, contrar voinţei ţării noastre, va crea premizele necesare pentru ratificarea şi punerea în aplicare a Tratatului FACE Adaptat" -- Cezarika f. ( talk) 13:14, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
This article is protected due to recent edit war. Currently protection is set to one week because this is the second time the page is fully protected within the month, can be shortened after everyone cooled down and consensus is achieved. -- WinHunter ( talk) 14:41, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Article is unprotected. Both acount waging an artificial edit war are blocked for disruption. `' Míkka >t 16:20, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
I'd suggest a full revert of the lead to this clean version (except for changes by TSO1D). The current verion is rather messed up. "Soviet occupation" header should also be reverted to the far more neutral Moldavian SSR. Also, CDPP is not the only party in Moldova, why the heck is it listed as a "main" article for the government of Moldova?-- Illythr ( talk) 18:46, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Here is what I was proposing as introduction. Please make suggestions to what is wrong, what should not be here. Also 'votes' towards keeping (and specifically what) would be nice.
" The Republic of Moldova (Republica Moldova) is a landlocked country in Eastern Europe, located between Romania to the west and Ukraine to the north, east and south. The majority of the population is represented by Moldovans, which are Latin people officially recognized as a distinct group from Romanians, having a separate Moldovan language - although probably identical in most aspects to Romanian language.
The Principality of Moldavia gained independence around the 14th century AD. Most of the present day territory of Republic of Moldova was annexed by the Russian Empire from Moldavia in 1812, and included in the guberniya Bessarabia. In 1918, after the collapse of the Russian Empire, Sfatul Ţării of Bessarabia decided with 86 votes for, 3 against and 36 abstainments, towards the union with the Kingdom of Romania. But after 22 years, as a result of Ribbentrop-Molotov pact, Bessarabia was allowed by the Third Reich to be annexed by USSR. On June 28 1940, Romania received an ultimatum from the Soviet Union, demanding the evacuation of the Romanian military and administration from Bessarabia and from the northern part of Bukovina, with an implied threat of invasion in the event of non-compliance. [1] Under pressure from Moscow and Berlin, the Romanian administration and the army were forced to retreat from Bessarabia as well from Northern Bukovina to avoid war. In 1944, Moldova was annexed again and administered by the USSR as the Moldavian SSR until the collapse of the USSR, when it declared its independence on August 27, 1991.
Present-day Moldova is a parliamentary democracy with a President as its head of state and a Prime Minister as its head of government. Although Moldova has been independent since 1991, Russian forces have remained on Moldovan territory east of the Nistru River despite signing international obligations to withdraw and against the will of Moldovan Governement. [2] [3] Moldova has officially been a neutral country since its independence, and an early member of the NATO Partnership for Peace. The country is a member state of the United Nations, WTO, OSCE, GUAM, CIS, BSEC and La Francophonie. Moldova currently aspires to join the European Union. [4] and is implementing its first three-year Action Plan within the framework of the European Neighbourhood Policy ( ENP) of the EU. [5] [6]"
Nergaal ( talk) 00:06, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
I might be wrong, but until now (excluding the unreferenced POV of Anonimu who seems to lack the will to compromise) this is the situation from what I see: 1) there seems to be some good amounts of agreements on this. 2) and 3) have still some debating left. 4) needs significant more debating before reaching agreements. Nergaal ( talk) 11:49, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Most of its territory was historically part of the medieval Principality of Moldavia, and was ceded to the Russian Empire in 1812, as part of Bessarabia. In 1918, after the collapse of the Russian Empire, the National Assembly of Bessarabia voted almost unanimously towards union with Romania. [4] [5] But during World War II, as a result of Ribbentrop-Molotov pact, Bessarabia was allowed by the Third Reich to be annexed by USSR. [3] After the war, it was split between the Ukrainian SSR and the newly-created Moldavian SSR. The latter declared its independence from the USSR on August 27, 1991, as Republic of Moldova.
this link " http://azi.md/news?ID=41925" says that there is a single official language,
If the article 13 might be ambigous as to what is the meaning of "national" language. The article National language says (without references though) "A national language declared as such by legislation is the same as an Official language". But come on, Article 35 uses singular thus IMPLIES that there is a single official language. And there is no way that the national language is not official.
Please add 'bumps'/votes to show that you support this position (to have more weight agains people who decide to ignore facts). Nergaal ( talk) 12:38, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
I see only one editor on this page who claims that Russian, Ukrainian and Gagauz are official languages of Moldova along with Moldovan, all the rest of editors who edited or expressed their opinions say something else. I suggest you stop trying to push your opinion over others', especially when you are in minority (actually the only one supporting this interpretation), please find at least another editor who agrees with you, before you revert the consensus built page. -- AdrianTM ( talk) 18:48, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
I've just reverted all of Moldopodo's and some of Nergaal's edits:
Moldopodo: 1. Please present at least one reliable secondary source stating that there is more than one official language in Moldova. 2. A section on relations with Russia is a good idea, however, it's currently too small and uninformative. Perhaps translating some info from the ru article might make it useful enough.
However, the day, the references to Moldovan, Russian, Ukrainian nand Gagauz will disappear from the Constituion and laws of the Republic of Moldova, thus removing any legal status of these languages in Moldova, the day the Parliament of the Republic of Moldova will modify the Constitution and write Romanian (provided no other referenes exist to other languages, as well as to the laws on functioning of languages (under which Moldovan falls just as Russian, Ukrainian and Gagauz), that day I will simply make one edit: "there is one official language (with official legal status) in Moldova: Romanian". This being only imagination, time to get back to the reality. Until that day the official languages with official legal status in the Republic of Moldova are: Moldovan, Russian, Ukrainian and Gagauz, in accordance with the article 13 of Constitution of the Republic of Moldova and in accordance with laws to which it exlicitely refers. Respectfully -- Moldopodo ( talk) 17:59, 22 November 2007 (UTC)Moldopodo
Nergaal: 1. That Cazacu guy doesn't strike me as a " neutral, unbiased, seemingly objective,well-referenced american author from 1927". In fact, that passage you used reads like an inflammatory pamphlet. If you absolutely must reference him, please present his opinion on the situation as an opinion, not objective truth. 2. This is a "by the book" example of WP:SYNTH. (Sorry, marked my last edit as "minor" by accident). -- Illythr ( talk) 13:09, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
"Cazacu (1912), A Century of Serfdom, < http://depts.washington.edu/cartah/text_archive/clark/bc_24.shtml> text: "The Russians are now holding their celebration of a century of material possession of Bessarabia. But her spirit they do not possess, nor shall they ever possess it. In the celebration of the Russians, the Moldavians have no share except that of deep and painful silence. The whole Roumanian people feels this pain, and does not lose hope that Bessarabia, and with her the Roumanian people, will have a chance to celebrate in her turn the day of salvation. It will come. History repeats itself so often, and the historical maxim remains: Babylon was, the Empire of Alexander of Macedon was, the Roman Empire was, the Byzantine Empire was, and the time will come to say of other empires also-they were. Not so long ago was 1855 with the Crimea, and not so long ago was Port Arthur and Tzushima, and-Great is the Lord God of Hosts!-it will be again, surely it will be again!" " Nergaal ( talk) 13:58, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Well, I see you're not exactly willing to seek consensus before pushing your edits through, either. -- Illythr ( talk) 14:57, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Constitution of the Republic of Moldova Article 13. The National Language, Use of Other Languages |
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(1) The state language of the Republic of Moldova is Moldovan, and its writing is based on the Latin alphabet. |
(2) The Moldovan State acknowledges and protects the right to preserve, develop and use the Russian language and other languages spoken within the national territory of the country. |
(3) The State will encourage and promote studies of foreign languages enjoying widespread international usage. |
(4) The use of languages in the territory of the Republic of Moldova will be established by organic law. end of citation of article 13 of Constitution |
Organic Laws |
1) Law regarding the Functioning of Languages on the Territory of Moldavian SSR
[8]. 2) Decision of Parliament regarding "Implementation of the law regarding Functioning of Languages on the Territory of Moldavian SSR" [9]. 3) Article 6 of the Law regarding Basic Provisions of the Special Legal Status of the Dniestr Left bank Localities (Transnistria) [10]. (1) Transnistria has its own symbols (heraldry), which are applied together with the symbols of the Republic of Moldova. (2) Official languages of Transnistria are Moldavian written in Latin alphabet, Ukrainian and Russian languages. The Republic of Moldova guarantees functioning of other language on the territory of Transnistria. (3) Record keeping, as well as correspondence with public power intitutions of the Republic of Moldova, companies, organisations and institutions, situated abroad from Transnistria, are held in Moldavian language written in Latin alphabet and Russian language. |
Official language
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia |
An official language is a language that is given a special legal status in the countries, states, and other territories. It is typically the language used in a nation's legislative bodies, though the law in many nations requires that government documents be produced in other languages as well. Official status can also be used to give a language (often indigenous) legal status, even if that language is not widely spoken.
An official language is not to be confused with a national language, although the national language may be official if given legal recognition by the government. One of the official languages of sierre leone is French. |
Comparative law as an example |
Three official languages in Luxembourg:
Multilingualism in Luxembourg belongs to the everyday life of Luxembourg's population.
Article 29 of Constitution of the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg [11]: (Modified on 6 May 1948) "The law will regulate the use of languages in administrative and judicial matters." The law of 24 February 1984 about the use of the languages in Luxembourg is (translated from French):
In most other multilingual countries, such as Switzerland or Canada, the distribution of the languages is geographic, but in Luxembourg it is functional. 'Functional' means that the use of the language depends on the situation. |
Comparative law as an example - equivalent provisions in Moldovan law |
Article 6 of the Law regarding Functioning of Languages: Regarding institutions of state power, state administration and public organisations, as well as companies, other instituions and organisations located on the territory of the Moldavian SSR, the language of oral and written communction - Moldavian or Russian - is chosen by the citizen. The citizen's right to use Gagauz language in the aforementioned conditions is guaranteed in localities with population of Gagauz nationality. In localities, where the majority of population is composed of Ukrainian, Russian, Bulgarian nationalities, the native or other convenient language is used. |
Therefore, there are four official languages in Moldova:
1) Moldavian language (wich is the same as Romanian linguisticly and scientificly, however no legal reference to Romanian exists in Moldovan legislation)
2) Russian language (language of international communication (as stipulated by the Moldovan law) [12] (official "state" language in Transnistria and Gagauzia)
3) Ukrainian language [13] which used to be legal language of the Modavian Principality (как актовый язык Молдавского княжества) [14], which is official "state" language in the easten cantons of Moldova. (official language in Transnistria)
4) Gagauz language, which is official "state" language in the southern autonomous region Gagauzia.
Moreover, as per evidence cited above, Romani language, Hebrew language and Bulgarian language enjoy a clearly established legal status in Moldova. What we need here is to establish the list of localities where the population is really majority of respective nationalities and speaks these languages.
Please, refer to langauges articles in multinational countries, like Switzerland (where they not simply name the language, but specify the country Swiss German, Swiss French, Swiss Italian and leave only Romansh without country reference, for example. I think articles Moldovan Romanian, Moldovan Russian, Moldovan Ukrainian and Gagauz might be more appropriate as simply language reference without country mention. There one could write not only about linguistic aspects, but also about the number of speakers, specific regions of Moldova, etc. For example the article Moldovan Romanian one could start: The Romanian language is officially called in Moldova "Moldovan". And then explain the identity, controversy, political issues related to this.
I do not think it is necessary to write more than two paragraphs on each language on the Moldova page proper. The rest should be put in the aforemnetioned relevant "language articles". Moldopodo ( talk) 08:54, 24 November 2007 (UTC)Moldopodo
Why did you ignore Article 35? If you want to have an objective conclusion, you HAVE to include all the relevant facts. And asricle 35 states:
Article 35. (3) In all forms of educational institutions the study of the country's official language will be ensured.
Everything you have stated before can be INTERPRETED the way you said. But article 35 STATES that there is one THE COUNTRY'S OFFICIAL LANGUAGE. точка Nergaal ( talk) 09:57, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
Article 35 The right to education (Constitution of the Republic of Moldova)
(1) The right to education is provided through compulsory general education, lyceum and professional education, higher education, as well as other forms of education and continuous training.
(2) The state guarantees the citizen's choice of education and instruction language in acordance with the law.
(3) The learning of state language is provided in institutions of all levels.
(4) State (public) education is free.
(5) Education institutions, including non-governmental, are created and carry out their activity in acordance with the law.
(6) Higher education institutions are entitled to the right for autonomy.
(7) The state lyceum, professional and higher education is equally accessible to all independently from capacities.
(8) The state provides, in accordance with the law, the freedom of religion education. State education is of secular character.
(9) Priority right to chose the education sphere of children belongs to parents.
As you insist, let's cite the whole article, and not only paragraph 3. As you can see, the preceeding paragraph 2, clearly establishes the right of Moldavian citizen to chose the languge of their education (which means there is more than one, since the choice is given, otherwise why bother to give a choice if there is only one official language?), in accordance with the law. Paragraph 3 (the one you cited), nor by the way any paragraph in this law, stipulates nothing on what the official languages in Moldova are.
Now, let's see what says the Law on Education [16]
Article 8. Language of education
(1) The state provides in accordance with Constitution and articles 18, 19 and 20 of the Law on Functioning of Languages on the Territory of the Republic of Moldova [17], the right to chose the langauge for education and instruction at all levels of education.
(2) The right of citizens to education in native language si provided by creation of the necessary number of education institutions, classes, groups, as well as of conditions for their functioning.
(3) Learning of the state language of the Republic of Moldova is mandatory in all education institutions. The requirements to the learning of the state language are established by the state education standard. The Ministry of Education and Youth together with institutions of local public admnistration are responsible for the provision of the process of learning of state language in all education institutions. [Part 3 Art. 8 modified ZPC1208 06.12.2000/MO154 14.12.2000]
Now, let's have a look at the articles 18, 19 and 20 of the Law on functioning of languages [18] to which refers the aforementioned article 8, and to cite all, I will cite the whole chapter V.:
CHAPTER V. LANGUAGE IN THE FIELDS OF NATIONAL EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND CULTURE [19]
Article 18. The Moldavian SSR guarantees the right to receive prescolar education, general medium, medium special (technical), professional-technical and higher education in Moldavian and Russian languages and creates conditions for realisation for citizens with other nationalities, living in the Republic, of right to education in native language (Gagauz, Ukrainian, Bulgarian, Hebrew, Yiddish, etc.)
Article 19.
Prescolar institutions and secondary schools are created following the principle of single language. Record keeping, meetings, sessions, audiovisual information are carried out in these institutions in the language of instruction and education.
Prescolar institutions and secondary schools are created following the principle of bilingualism in those localities, where the number of children and students does not allow to open single language prescolar institutions and secondary schools. Meetings, sessions, audiovisual information are carried out in these institutions in the equal measure in respective education and instruction languages, whereas the record keeping is carried out in the state langauge.
Article 20.
In the special secondary, professional-technical and higher education institutions, the education is provided in state and Russian languages in specialities necessary to the Moldavian SSR. For satisfaction of economic and cultural needs of the Republic are created study groups and classes with teaching in langauges functioning on the territory of the Moldavian SSR (Gagauz, Ukrainian, Bulgarian, Yiddish, etc.). In the target nationality groups, the teaching of special objects is carried out in native language of pupils and students.
Article 21.
In the education institutions of all levels, the learning of Moldavian is provided as a study object - in classes and groups with Russian or other language of teaching (for students of Gagauz and Bulgarian antionalities - in the volume necessary for communication) and the teaching of Russian - in classes and groups with Moldavian or other langauge of teaching.
Pupils and students, upon graduation from the education institution pass graduation examination, respectively in Moldavian or Russian language, which creates conditions for enlargement of communication spheres on the whole territory of the Republic.
Article 22.
Moldavian SSR creates the necessary conditions for the development of Moldavian and Gagauz national science and culture, as well as for scientific and cultural activity in other languages, functioning in the Republic. The Ph.D exams are carried out in Moldavian, Russian or other language, determined by respective specialised council.
Article 23.
Scientific, scientific-practical conferences, symposia ans seminars, other activities of Republican importance are carried out in the state language (while Rusian translation is provided), whereas the all-Union importance activities - in Russian language.
Moldopodo ( talk) 14:54, 24 November 2007 (UTC)Moldopodo
I agree, only the Costitutional Court has that right. Please look at the following decision
1. Recunoaste constitutionale dispozitiile art.6 alin.(1), art.8
alin.(1) si (3), art.10, art.11 alin.(1) si art.12 alin.(1) din Legea nr.382-XV din 19 iulie 2001 "Cu privire la drepturile persoanelor apartinind minoritatilor nationale si la statutul juridic al organizatiilor lor", cu exceptia sintagmei "...si rusa" din art.10 in partea referitoare la denumirea localitatilor si strazilor si a sintagmei "...si rusa" din art.11 alin.(1). 2. Declara neconstitutionale sintagma "...si rusa" din art.10 in partea referitoare la denumirea localitatilor si strazilor si sintagma ...si rusa" din art.11 alin. (1) din Legea nr.382-XV din 19 iulie 2001 "Cu privire la drepturile persoanelor apartinind minoritatilor nationale si la statutul juridic al organizatiilor lor". 3. Declara neconstitutionala sintagma ...si limba rusa" din art.5 alin.(4) din Legea nr.100-XV din 26 aprilie 2001 "Privind actele de stare civila". 4. Prezenta Hotarire este definitiva, nu poate fi supusa nici unei cai de atac, intra in vigoare la data adoptarii si se publica in
"Monitorul Oficial al Republicii Moldova".
In a long decision, the court analyzes the usage of languages in Moldova based on the Constitution and the Law on Languages from 1989. The decision and their arguments reveals that they consider that since Moldovan is the state language, any mention of the Russian language at the official level is unconstitutional. The only area where documents may explicitly refer to other languages, including Russian is in the sphere of education, although documents bearing on civil matters should be translated in another language if requested.
I am glad that this debate is finally over. TSO1D ( talk) 16:25, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
Please see the valid organic law which gives legal status to languages in Moldova:
Published: 01.10.1989 in M.Of. No 009
MODIFIED ZP206/29.05.03; MO149/18.07.03 art.598
see also: DECISION No 3466 dated 01.09.1989 Decision "on the entry in force of the Law of Moldavian SSR "on Functioning of Languages on the Territory of the Moldavian SSR
Definition by the Constitution (Fundamental Law) of the Moldavian Soviet Socialist Republic of the status of Moldavian language as state language is aimed at to contribute the completeness of the Republic's souvereignity and creation of the necessary guarantees for its full-fledged and comprehensive realisaion in all spheres of political, economic, social and cultural life. The Moldavian SSR supports education and satisfaction of cultural needs of Moldavians living abroad in their native language, and taking in cosideration the reality of Moldo-Romanian linguistic identity - of Romanians, domiciled on the territory of the USSR.
Giving to Moldavian the status of state language, the Moldavian SSR guarantees protection of Constitutional rights and freedoms of citizens of any nationality, living on the territory of the Moldavian SSR, independently of the used language, in conditions of equality of all citizens before the law.
To provide state protection and guarantee the development of Gagauz language, Moldavian SSR provides the necessary guarantees for successive development of its social functions.
Moldavian SSR provides on its territory conditions for usage and development of Russian language, as language of international (interethnic) communicaton in the USSR, as well as of languages of other nationalities living in the Republic.
There is no debate, because it's clear from the laws and Constitution how many official languages in Moldova are - four: Moldovan, Russian, Ukrainian and Gagauz. I am glad you agree with me at the end, TSO1D. Moldopodo ( talk) 16:39, 24 November 2007 (UTC)Moldopodo
Wikipedia policy states that:"Primary sources that have been published by a reliable source may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. For that reason, anyone—without specialist knowledge—who reads the primary source should be able to verify that the Wikipedia passage agrees with the primary source.
"A tertiary source is a publication such as an encyclopedia or other compendium that sums up other secondary sources and primary sources. Many introductory textbooks may also be considered tertiary to the extent they sum up widely accepted results of large amounts of primary and secondary sources. Tertiary sources can be useful in avoiding original research in topics where there exist very large amounts of primary and/or secondary sources."
Since we are disagreeing about the content of primary sources, the only solution is to look at existing analyses from credible sources, and here we have plenty of those. Look at Britannica, Encarta, Columbia, etc. So since discussing primary sources will get us nowhere, if you have a credible secondary source or tertiary source supporting your position, please provide that, otherwise I see no point in continuing this dicussion. TSO1D ( talk) 16:57, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
Moldo still cannot understand that there is a difference between official language and use of language is protected by state. Here is a credible source, the official site of the Moldovan government, in Moldovan languange. [20] "Studierea limbii de stat se asigură în instituţiile de învăţămînt de toate gradele." Which anybody will be able to tell you that translates literaly as: the study of THE STATE language is ensured in all educational institutions at all level/grades. THEREFORE: there is A SINGLE STATE LANGUAGE. There might be more official languages, but there is a single state language. End of discussion. Nergaal ( talk) 05:49, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
TSO1D, There is no need to discuss the primary sources, they are clear. You are engaging all the time in their discussion, because apparently you find them not convenient for your arguments.
Nergaal, your unsourced passage (law, Constitution, what is this?) the study of THE STATE language is ensured in all educational institutions at all level/grades is completely irrelevant to the determination of official languages of Moldova with legal status. Anyway, the article 35 of Constiution, to which you probably refer, says in the preceeding line: that any Moldavian citizen has a right to chose the language of education. Here is the exact citation: (2) The state guarantees THE CITIZEN'S CHOICE OF EDUCATION AND INSTRUCTION LANGUAGE in acordance with the law. Moldopodo ( talk) 10:19, 25 November 2007 (UTC)Moldopodo
Article 8. Language of education
(1) The state provides in accordance with Constitution and articles 18, 19 and 20 of the Law on Functioning of Languages on the Territory of the Republic of Moldova, the right to chose the langauge for education and instruction at all levels of education.
(2) The right of citizens to education in native language si provided by creation of the necessary number of education institutions, classes, groups, as well as of conditions for their functioning.
(3) Learning of the state language of the Republic of Moldova is mandatory in all education institutions. The requirements to the learning of the state language are established by the state education standard. The Ministry of Education and Youth together with institutions of local public admnistration are responsible for the provision of the process of learning of state language in all education institutions. [Part 3 Art. 8 modified ZPC1208 06.12.2000/MO154 14.12.2000]
You can find all proisions on education of the Law on Functioning of Languages in Moldova clicking here: [21] Moldopodo ( talk) 13:06, 25 November 2007 (UTC)Moldopodo
Hey, Moldopodo, could you present a diff to you claim that I, or anyone else for that matter, actually agreed with your four languages idea? Or how agreeing that the wishy-washy en:wiki definition of what an official language is allows you to interpret the Moldovan Constitution the way you do means agreeing with your position? -- Illythr ( talk) 18:42, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
Anyhow, this entire debate is quite pointless. You yourself have pointed out the fact that Moldovan legislation does not explicitly define what an official language is. Therefore, before making any mainspace edits to that end, you need to acquire a secondary (e.g. a reliable research or an article in a respectable source) or tertiary (e.g. an encyclopedia article) source stating that official languages in all of Moldova are Moldovan, Russian, Gagauz and Ukrainian. So far, every such source presented here contradicts your claims in a most straightforward manner. -- Illythr ( talk) 18:42, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
An official language is a language that is given a special legal status in the countries, states, and other territories. It is typically the language used in a nation's legislative bodies, though the law in many nations requires that government documents be produced in other languages as well. Official status can also be used to give a language (often indigenous) legal status, even if that language is not widely spoken.
An official language is not to be confused with a national language, although the national language may be official if given legal recognition by the government.
1) All of the four languages have special, moreover - specifically detailed, legal status in the Law on Functioning of Languages of 1989 and in the Law on Transninstria of 2005.
2) All of them are also legally "official" languages in specific regions of Moldova: Transnistria and Gagauzia. Moldopodo ( talk) 19:14, 25 November 2007 (UTC)Moldopodo
As for presentation of langauges in teh artcile on Moldova, I think we should take example of articles on Luxembourg, Switzerland, Belgium. In the section Demographics, further subsection Languages we could write a total of eight equivalent concise paragrpahs, with two on each language. The first paragraph could deal with the legal status, in the second we could put demographics data: percentages of people speaking, localities, examples of linguistic particularities. Further we could create more detailed articles called either Moldovan Romanian, Moldovan Russian, Moldovan Ukrainian, Moldovan Gagauz (however, since it's official only in Moldova, we may want to live the actual name of the article Gagauz language) or called Russian in Moldova, Romanian in Moldova, Gagauz in Moldova, Ukrainian in Moldova, where we could describe extensively the history, controversies, etc... Therefore I think all four of them should be present in the infobox in one line, one after another, and not in footnotes.
A good and very similar example is Luxembourg, where the Constitution refers to the law on "usage of languages" (just as Moldovan Constitution refers to the law on "functioning of languages"), and where the Luxembougish relevant law says Luxmbourgish is the "national" language (like Moldovan is "state" language) however, French is used for legal spheres and German for administrative purposes (like Russian, Gagauz and Ukrainian in Moldova). Nonetheless, all three languages are considered official in Luxembourg, even though in international organisations Luxembourg is represented by French language only (whereas Moldovan Minsters may use as Romanian, just as Russian at international conferences). Also have a look at Switzerland and their situation with Rumantsch language wich is spoken by a minority of Swiss citizen (just as Gagauz language in Moldova). Nonetheless, Rumantsch is conisdered as official langauge as well. Offtopic: By the way, do you remember what said Snegur before he became the first President of the Republic of Moldova? - "I will make it a second Switzerland". Well, I do not know about economy, but as far as languages are concerned we have a very similar position today, thanks to the article 13 of Moldovan Constitution, Law on Functioning of Languages of 1989 and Law on Transnistria of 2005.
I also support writing Moldovan in the infobox as well as every time we refer to a language officially spoken in the Republic of Moldova (like in the infobox for example). This means I am for the pure and simple version: Moldovan instead of Moldovan/Romanian. However, every time we refer to the language simply linguisticly, we should use simply Romanian, and not Moldavian/Romanian.
As for people and ethnies. Even in Romania Moldovans are considered as a separate ethnicity. Even though Moldovan may be understood in two ways: 1) Moldovan citizen, independently of one of the four languages spoken as native language, and 2) Moldovan ethnicly, having Romanian (as spoken in the Republic of Moldova, whose Romanian is different not only from Romanain spoken in Romania generally, but even from Romanian spoken in the bordering with the Republic of Moldova province of Moldova in Romania) as a native language. So when we are talking about censuses, for example, and in any other context, we cannot mix two different ethnicities. Moldopodo ( talk) 23:01, 27 November 2007 (UTC)Moldopodo
Moldovan language, Russian language, Ukrainian language, Gagauz language go together, this goes without saying as per evidence cited above. As for footnote we could put there Romani language, Hebrew language, Bulgarian language, and then add a little section in the langauges susbsection, and shortly and very concisely explain their status and localities where these languages are spoken in Moldova. Moldopodo ( talk) 11:56, 28 November 2007 (UTC)Moldopodo
Moldopodo, the reason I mentioned Austria and Spain, is because in both of those countries, like in Moldova, there is only one language that is official at the national level, although other languages are coofficial at the local level. On the other hand, in the examples you provided, the countries are federal entitites or have multiple languages official at the national level. For instance, the same would apply to Canada, which is officially bilingual at the state level. However, in Moldova, you admit that the other three languages are only official at the local level, hence the Austrian and Spanish examples.
As for the language section, the reason that section exclusively deals with the Moldovan/Romanian dispute is that that is found in the cultural section and mostly describes a cultural aspect, i.e., whether the languages are the same. On the other hand, if you wish to discuss the various languages spoken in Moldova, that should go into the government/politics section, though in very concise form. Of course, if you wish to discuss the cultural aspects of the other languages, such as Russian, Ukrainaina, or Gagauz cultural activity in Moldova, not only would I agree to that, but I would highly encourage you to add such information. TSO1D ( talk) 14:12, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Can somebody please clear away these huge quotes from legal texts that have cluttered this page? It's entirely unreadable. Since apparently all these texts are easily available on Wikisource, it's entirely sufficient to just link to there, rather than copy the whole bulk here. Thank you, Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:33, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
Here is my new proposal on the history part of the lead (based on all the suggestions given until now):
Most of its territory was historically part of the medieval Principality of Moldavia, and was ceded to the Russian Empire in 1812, as part of Bessarabia. In 1918, after the collapse of the Russian Empire, the National Assembly of Bessarabia voted almost unanimously towards union with Romania. [6] [7] But during World War II, with the agreements of Ribbentrop-Molotov pact, Bessarabia was allowed by the Third Reich to fall under the sphere of influence of USSR. After an ultimatum from USSR the Romanian government and army retreated from Bessarabia in 1941 [3] - which was then split between the Ukrainian SSR and the newly-created Moldavian SSR. The latter declared its independence from the USSR on August 27, 1991, as Republic of Moldova.
Nergaal 04:27, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
Most of its territory was historically part of the medieval Principality of Moldavia, and was ceded by its Ottoman suzerain to the Russian Empire in 1812, as part of Bessarabia. In 1918, after the collapse of the Empire, the National Assembly of Bessarabia voted towards a union with Romania. [8] [9] During World War II, with the agreements of Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, Bessarabia was allowed by the Third Reich to fall under the sphere of influence of USSR. After receiving an ultimatum from the USSR the Romanian government and army retreated from Bessarabia in 1940 [3] - which was then split between the Ukrainian SSR and the newly-created Moldavian SSR. The latter declared its independence on August 27, 1991, as the Republic of Moldova.
I don't like the "almost unanimously" part in the lead, because, while technically true, it gives the impression that the union was a nice and fluffy event, which it wasn't. As there's no place in the lead to explain all the complications of that process, I think that just stating that it voted in favor should be enough. Same goes for the 1812 ceding and the 1941-1944 events, although the 1947 recognition by Romania that MSSR is a part of the USSR may be squeezed in at some point. -- Illythr 02:44, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
During the retreat, the Romanian Army was attacked by the Soviet Army, which entered Bessarabia before the Romanian administration finished retreating - some 42,876 Romanian soldiers died or disappeared
Second, about development of Moldavian SSR in 1970-1980. I changed "highly qualified specialists" to "qualified specialists", since the first formulation works really only for the experts in the filed, IMHO. Adding "highly" makes the whole sentence non-serious, IMHO. The influx stopped with the independence of Moldova, when the Gosplan was not doing any more the economic policy. It has nothing to do with Belovezha, where the leaders of 3 foreign countries decided something that mattered mostly for them. By then, Moldova was recognized by most European and North Atlantic countries. Finally, we all know what "investment" means in market economy accounting practice, and what it meant in the planned economy. I erased one of the two occurrences. Anyway, I'm obviously open to further suggestions.: Dc76\ talk 20:39, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Romanians are still waiting to unite with Moldova. -- 116.214.31.93 ( talk) 19:12, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
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![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 |
I want to include this sentence: Also, Moldova aspires to join European Union and NATO. Is there such a bid deal to include in the text? -- Tones benefit 09:19, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Let's add this Moldova has never existed as an independent political entity within its present borders. -- Tones benefit 19:42, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Because we know that until 1812, the area between the Prut and Nistru Rivers was neither considered a distinct territory of the Moldovan principality, nor had a particular name. The original region known by the name of Bessarabia was the swath of territory between Danube and Dnestr and washed by the waters of Black Sea. The area came to be known as the land of the Basarab dynasty, or Basarabia, after that the Walachian prince Mircea cel Bătrîn (the Old, 1386-1418) of the Basarab dynasty had wrested the region from the Tatars. The reason to expand the name of Bessarabia over the entire part of Moldova between the Prut and Nistru, north as far as the fortress at Hotin, was of a political nature. In keeping with the 1807 French-Russian Tilsit Treaty, Russia pledget to withdraw its troops from Moldova and Walachia, obligation that was not fulfilled. In the subsequent negotiations in 1908, the Russian representative showed that the Tilsit Treaty did not mention anything about Bessarabia, interpreting its name in a larger sense, and insisted that it remained to Russia. -- Tones benefit 19:45, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
In the past days, this article was subject to a lot of small edits that are both POV and not in English [1]. A lot of them are also irrelevant to this article, and there is a link to an article that, given rules outlined in the MoS, should perhaps not have been created, and itself look awful. Who has the energy to deal with this? Dahn 14:54, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
I find the addition of the sentence discussed here ("Moldova has never existed as an independent political entity within its present borders") to be rather absurd. Not only does this go for most states of the Soviet Union, for virtually any state in Africa, for many states in Asia etc., but, hell, if taken for its exclusive meaning ("having those exact borders") it also works for countries such as post-1945 Germany or Italy etc., as well as for both post-1918 Romania and post-1945 Romania. As for an independent state which Moldova can (and probably does) cite as a precedent, leaving aside Moldavia for various reasons, you have the Moldavian Democratic Republic... it may not have been "within those borders", but it was surely not "outside those borders". Dahn 16:16, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
Reading the second paragraph, I couldn't get if Moldova is or is not part of NATO. Am I misreading or the text need to be improved?-- ClaudioMB 05:32, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
looks as though some Vandalism has gotten off here. I'm afraid I don't know the real motto of Moldova, but it needs to be corrected.
68.110.10.11 17:00, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Any objections if there's a selective archiving of the stale Mauco + Mark Street + Truli sockpuppet et al. diatribes to get this down to legitimate article discussions? PētersV 01:13, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
Look, the name of the official language in Moldova is called Moldovan. No one disputes that. What others and I want to do is to refer to the status of the Romanian language as taking part of the official language, as according to the Moldovan legislation. If Moldova wants to repell that standing, then they should get rid of the laws that contradict their current laws. If, however, they choose to go with a double message, then so should we. Therefore, I suggest that we make it clear that Romanian is not to be counted as the official name of the language, but as some kind of substitute. As I have said before: if you guys disagree with presenting the role of the Romanian language, then we should also get rid of the footnote, because it has the same function as adding the name there; the difference being that it is a bit unclear. To remove the footnote, however, would be a biased thing to do and against the policy. I suggest that we write in parenthesis the following (Romanian under the old legislation). Yes, I know it's a bit long, but it's the best thing I could think of. I think we should agree on such a compromise. It's both accurate and reasonble. -- Thus Spake Anittas 13:26, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
- Anitta, your argument is not clear, pease be more precise and give sources and links (see like I did, for example) Moldopodo 10:07, 1 November 2007 (UTC)Moldopodo
Official language [4] From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
An official language is a language that is given a special legal status in the countries, states, and other territories. It is typically the language used in a nation's legislative bodies, though the law in many nations requires that government documents be produced in other languages as well. Official status can also be used to give a language (often indigenous) legal status, even if that language is not widely spoken.
Constitution of the Republic of Moldova Article 13. The National Language, Use of Other Languages |
---|
(1) The national language of the Republic of Moldova is Moldovan, and its writing is based on the Latin alphabet. |
(2) The Moldovan State acknowledges and protects the right to preserve, develop and use the Russian language and other languages spoken within the national territory of the country. |
(3) The State will encourage and promote studies of foreign languages enjoying widespread international usage. |
(4) The use of languages in the territory of the Republic of Moldova will be established by organic law. |
Anitta, you seem not to know Moldavian laws. If you agree with Wikipedia definition of official language, please exlain how you don't see other languages holding official status? It is a rather strange and contradictory conclusion to my mind.
Anittas, could you explain, why do you change Moldavian to Moldavian/Romanian, whereasm no such mention in Moldavian legislation exists.
Anittas, when you go to the Russian version, in the upper left corner it says "Varianta în limba de stat" this is not an argument, as I have explicitely cited relevant laws and Constitution of the Republic of Moldova.
Anitta, please stop doing these controversial intentional edits with no justification, as I have all reasons to report you. Moldopodo 10:41, 1 November 2007 (UTC)Moldopodo
This page has been protected for edit warring. All facts require verifiable reliable sources which you need to cite. Removal of sourced information without a good reason is disruptive. -- Haemo 19:00, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
/see here full text
Let's try this again (prior comment replaced). What is the point of extensively quoting something which talks about a pile of "official" languages (meaning you can conduct official business in that languge) which are then guaranteed to get translated into Russian for official promulgation/archiving/etc. within the context of the USSR authorities? The Soviet Union is dead the last time I checked.
PētersV
19:50, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
P.S. Just checked again to make sure. Still dead. PētersV 19:52, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Maybe somebody didn't bury her in time... seems like it started to stink. -- AdrianTM 20:09, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
My dear Moldopodo, my "do not understand" comment (deleted) was merely a brief moment of levity and laziness. That moment passed, replaced by curiosity. I'm perhaps not quite as inept as I protest (and I really do know some Pushkin by heart)--I do reasonably well with a couple of machine translators and a good dictionary. And so, my good-faith reading is that: "Moldovan" is the official language (Latin script, ergo Romanian by any other name). As for the rest, both Moldovan (official) and anything else you use for conducting your affairs (short list of other languages in certain parts of the ССР) will be translated into the true mother tongue of the СССР, Russian. And, of course, since the СССР is a polyglot union nurturing every language and ethnicity, you can conduct your national (as in a people) cultural affairs in whatever language you like--any language used anywhere in the СССР is just fine and dandy. (Ah, if only the Soviet Union had conducted its affairs in accordance with its own constitution, it's quite a magnificent document! A conversation for another time.) I have to interject, so what? Every language got translated into Russian for the (Soviet) record. Every language was respected constitutionally. That does not make any of those languages "official." This document makes it quite clear the only official language is Moldovan, even while Moldova was still a ССР (but feeling its oats, as the expression goes). Contending the document in question promulgates a wide range of "official" languages is completely not what the document says, it's only Latin script Moldovan: "государственным языком Молдавской ССР является молдавский язык, функционирующий на основе латинской графики". You can't miss it (it's even bolded).
Contend something is official because an official document does not say something is explicitly unofficial... well... that's not dissimilar to Anonimu's argument that the proof that the Soviet Union did not occupy Romania is because there are no scholarly sources written about the fact that the Soviet Union did not occupy Romania, only writers of fiction are compelled to put pen to paper (that is, since all scholarly sources do indicate the Soviet Union occupied Romania, those sources all lie since no one bothers to write about what is obviously true). Historical syllogism or constitutional syllogism, it's still a syllogism. PētersV 14:21, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
A side note, stepping away from the "debate" (Moldopodo's misreading, I'm afraid) for a moment... The reason for the guarantee of translation into Russian was, of course, to insure that Big Brother Moscow could watch over you by having copies of all records in Russian. This even extended to historical records on an as-requested basis. For example, say you lived in the U.S. and you needed the certificate of birth for your grandfather, on file in Straseni. You speak Romanian, the record is in Romanian. No, you do not get a "copy"--as in facsimile or transcription. You get the product of the following process:
P.S. Thanks to Illythr for the confirmation the law is still in force. Obviously anything with reference to the СССР has ceased effectiveness with the death of the Soviet Union. Although, to AdrianTM's point, perhaps one of those hermetically sealed Father of the Soviet Peoples fishbowls has developed a leak! PētersV 14:21, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
An official language is a language that is given a special legal status in the countries, states, and other territories. It is typically the language used in a nation's legislative bodies, though the law in many nations requires that government documents be produced in other languages as well. Official status can also be used to give a language (often indigenous) legal status, even if that language is not widely spoken.
I am sure you can make the necessary conclusions from this simple and clear definition. Should you have any problem, I am ready to help you. As for the draft, I think we should drop it, as we do not know about which draft we are talking, when, by whom it was prepared and what was in it, as no source from you is provided on this either. Moldopodo 21:45, 2 November 2007 (UTC)Moldopodo
I'd like the following text to be inserted into Human Rights of this article, but cannot edit it now:
The gay rights in Moldova are also in lack of respect in Moldova. Much criticism has ben made towards unfair treatment of homosexuals in the country.
Mikael Häggström 12:20, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Trying to erase the words Romanian from this article sounds like Russification promoted by Voronin in 2007.---- Cezarika f. ( talk) 20:16, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
1) Please, stop adding Romanian to the official name of the language which is Moldavian. It is clear that Moldavian and Romanian are one and the same language, however, one has to stick with the official legal documents as Constitution and the laws of the Republic of Moldova, and they call the language Moldavian.
(Shane) I agree with that - there is truth and there are encyclopedias. They should be as close as possible. But it's not always possible! So stick to official _moldavian_ documents! (Cheers, Shane)
The day the article 13 of the Constitution of the Republic of Moldova and the relveant laws will be changed and the language will be officially called Romanian, I will be the first to change it on Wikipedia as well. The same applies to Russian, Ukrainian and Gagauz. The day these languages will dissapear from the Constitution and the relavant laws of the Republic of Moldova, I, and everybody else, will most certainly agree that there is only one official language in the Republic of Moldova - Romanian. Today this is not the case, moreover, no Moldavian legally binding document even allows for such an interpretation. Also please, stop erasing references to these legal documents.
2) For clarification of the fact that Romanian and Moldavian is one and the same language, please use the relevant pages. There are only two pages which allow for this explication: Moldavian language and Romanian language. When an official reference to the used language in Moldova is made, like in the infobox for example, only Moldavian can be put there, as this is how it is called in the official legal documents of the Moldavian Parliament: Constitution and laws. It is useless to add everywhere "slash - Romanian". None of the Moldavian legal documents names the language this way. However, once clicking on the Moldavian language, the reader wil be redirected to the Moldavian language page, where the identity between these two names should be explianed.
3) Please stop erasing that Russian, Gagauz and Ukrainian are official languages in the Republic of Moldova. It is not a matter of debate either, as these are the provisions of the Constitution of the Republic of Moldova and of laws of the Republic of Moldova. I do not see any need for their interpretation or debate on them. These are clear legal provisions and it is useless to erase them in the first hand, and to erase after Russian, Ukrainian and Gagauz.
Thank you. Moldopodo ( talk) 17:30, 18 November 2007 (UTC)Moldopodo
1) Fortunately, in the case of Russian, Ukrainian, and Gagauz, they already do not appear in the Constitution as official, so there is no ambiguity about the fact that they are not official languages of Moldova. Quoting from the Constitution: "The national language of the Republic of Moldova is Moldovan, and its writing is based on the Latin alphabet. (2) The Moldovan State acknowledges and protects the right to preserve, develop and use the Russian language and other languages spoken within the national territory of the country" Of course, it's clear that to protect is by no stretch of the imagination the same as declaring them to be official. TSO1D ( talk) 17:41, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
An official language is not to be confused with a national language, although the national language may be official if given legal recognition by the government.
2) Actually this isn't fully accurate. Some ministries exclusively use the term Romanian. Look at the Ministry of Education for example www.edu.md. This is an important reason why we have decided to include the name Romanian in the infobox alongside the Constitutional name. Please see past discussion of this page for further information if you are interested. TSO1D ( talk) 17:41, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
Articolul 8. Limba de predare Statul asigură, conform Constituţiei şi articolelor 18, 19 şi 20 din Legea cu privire la funcţionarea limbilor pe teritoriul Republicii Moldova, dreptul de a alege limba de educare şi instruire la toate nivelurile şi treptele de învăţămînt. Dreptul cetăţenilor la educaţie şi instruire în limba maternă se asigură prin crearea numărului necesar de instituţii de învăţămînt, clase, grupe, precum şi a condiţilor de funcţionare a acestora. Studiul limbii de stat a Republicii Moldova este obligatoriu în toateinstituţiile de învăţămînt. Cerinţele faţă de predarea şi însuşirea ei sînt reglementate de standardul educaţional de stat. Responsabilitatea pentru asigurarea procesului de însuşire a limbii de stat în toate instituţiile de învăţămînt o poartă Ministerul Educaţiei şi Ştiinţei şi autorităţile administraţiei publice locale. Also in the menu the language selection says "MD" (which stays for Moldovan), and even the flag do designate the language is Moldavian (with a black dot symbolizing the eagle, to make sure the difference is seen with Romanian). Is thi what you were referring to? Moldopodo ( talk) 18:20, 18 November 2007 (UTC)Moldopodo
3) I fully agree with you. There is no ambiguity here and this matter is explicitly addressed in the Constitution. Please see my comment above or look at the Constitution for additional information. TSO1D ( talk) 17:41, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
By the way, Moldopodo, since you said that you trusted Britannica's content, please look at how they dealt with the subject. Under the category of "official language" they have:
Britannica: "Official language:Romanian". I believe that this concise line addresses all of your concerns.
TSO1D (
talk)
18:22, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
Both Moldopodo and Cezarica (and the anon IP), please stop. We've had enough edit wars without you here. Dpotop ( talk) 20:21, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
EVEN IF THE STATEMENTS ARE REFERENCED!!! Furthermore, he gives no explanations to his deletions of referenced material (even from official sites).
I believe that if I confront him directly he will gravely abuse of administrative rights (I had to deal with his abusive before) and block me. I expect him to delete my edits too. Please somebody take care of this situation.
An example of deletion in the foreign relation section: "In 1st of October 2007, foreign minister of Moldova, Andrei Stratan, said at UN that Russian troups are in Republic of Moldova against the will of Moldovan Government. Reiterez, cu acest prilej, poziţia Republicii Moldova, potrivit căreia îndeplinirea angajamentelor asumate la Istanbul în 1999 de Federaţia Rusă, ale căror trupe staţionează pe teritoriul Republicii Moldova, contrar voinţei ţării noastre, va crea premizele necesare pentru ratificarea şi punerea în aplicare a Tratatului FACE Adaptat"
Nergaal ( talk) 02:57, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
I strongly suspect that User:Nergaal and user:Cezarika f. are fresh socks of user:Bonaparte. `' Míkka >t 03:00, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
The article has been tagged as disputed several hours ago and 1h and 18mins later a Russian administrator comes to solve the dispute??? This is obviously a dispute between a pro-Russian point of view and a pro-Romanian point of view. Therefore an OBJECTIVE solution to this dispute cannot be found by bringing a Romanian or a Russian user/administrator, or a friend of such a user. Disputes should be solved by impartial users/administrators! Thank you. Nergaal ( talk) 03:41, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
"In 1st of October 2007, foreign minister of Moldova, Andrei Stratan, said at UN that Russian troups are in Republic of Moldova against the will of Moldovan Government. Reiterez, cu acest prilej, poziţia Republicii Moldova, potrivit căreia îndeplinirea angajamentelor asumate la Istanbul în 1999 de Federaţia Rusă, ale căror trupe staţionează pe teritoriul Republicii Moldova, contrar voinţei ţării noastre, va crea premizele necesare pentru ratificarea şi punerea în aplicare a Tratatului FACE Adaptat" -- Cezarika f. ( talk) 13:14, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
This article is protected due to recent edit war. Currently protection is set to one week because this is the second time the page is fully protected within the month, can be shortened after everyone cooled down and consensus is achieved. -- WinHunter ( talk) 14:41, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Article is unprotected. Both acount waging an artificial edit war are blocked for disruption. `' Míkka >t 16:20, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
I'd suggest a full revert of the lead to this clean version (except for changes by TSO1D). The current verion is rather messed up. "Soviet occupation" header should also be reverted to the far more neutral Moldavian SSR. Also, CDPP is not the only party in Moldova, why the heck is it listed as a "main" article for the government of Moldova?-- Illythr ( talk) 18:46, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Here is what I was proposing as introduction. Please make suggestions to what is wrong, what should not be here. Also 'votes' towards keeping (and specifically what) would be nice.
" The Republic of Moldova (Republica Moldova) is a landlocked country in Eastern Europe, located between Romania to the west and Ukraine to the north, east and south. The majority of the population is represented by Moldovans, which are Latin people officially recognized as a distinct group from Romanians, having a separate Moldovan language - although probably identical in most aspects to Romanian language.
The Principality of Moldavia gained independence around the 14th century AD. Most of the present day territory of Republic of Moldova was annexed by the Russian Empire from Moldavia in 1812, and included in the guberniya Bessarabia. In 1918, after the collapse of the Russian Empire, Sfatul Ţării of Bessarabia decided with 86 votes for, 3 against and 36 abstainments, towards the union with the Kingdom of Romania. But after 22 years, as a result of Ribbentrop-Molotov pact, Bessarabia was allowed by the Third Reich to be annexed by USSR. On June 28 1940, Romania received an ultimatum from the Soviet Union, demanding the evacuation of the Romanian military and administration from Bessarabia and from the northern part of Bukovina, with an implied threat of invasion in the event of non-compliance. [1] Under pressure from Moscow and Berlin, the Romanian administration and the army were forced to retreat from Bessarabia as well from Northern Bukovina to avoid war. In 1944, Moldova was annexed again and administered by the USSR as the Moldavian SSR until the collapse of the USSR, when it declared its independence on August 27, 1991.
Present-day Moldova is a parliamentary democracy with a President as its head of state and a Prime Minister as its head of government. Although Moldova has been independent since 1991, Russian forces have remained on Moldovan territory east of the Nistru River despite signing international obligations to withdraw and against the will of Moldovan Governement. [2] [3] Moldova has officially been a neutral country since its independence, and an early member of the NATO Partnership for Peace. The country is a member state of the United Nations, WTO, OSCE, GUAM, CIS, BSEC and La Francophonie. Moldova currently aspires to join the European Union. [4] and is implementing its first three-year Action Plan within the framework of the European Neighbourhood Policy ( ENP) of the EU. [5] [6]"
Nergaal ( talk) 00:06, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
I might be wrong, but until now (excluding the unreferenced POV of Anonimu who seems to lack the will to compromise) this is the situation from what I see: 1) there seems to be some good amounts of agreements on this. 2) and 3) have still some debating left. 4) needs significant more debating before reaching agreements. Nergaal ( talk) 11:49, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Most of its territory was historically part of the medieval Principality of Moldavia, and was ceded to the Russian Empire in 1812, as part of Bessarabia. In 1918, after the collapse of the Russian Empire, the National Assembly of Bessarabia voted almost unanimously towards union with Romania. [4] [5] But during World War II, as a result of Ribbentrop-Molotov pact, Bessarabia was allowed by the Third Reich to be annexed by USSR. [3] After the war, it was split between the Ukrainian SSR and the newly-created Moldavian SSR. The latter declared its independence from the USSR on August 27, 1991, as Republic of Moldova.
this link " http://azi.md/news?ID=41925" says that there is a single official language,
If the article 13 might be ambigous as to what is the meaning of "national" language. The article National language says (without references though) "A national language declared as such by legislation is the same as an Official language". But come on, Article 35 uses singular thus IMPLIES that there is a single official language. And there is no way that the national language is not official.
Please add 'bumps'/votes to show that you support this position (to have more weight agains people who decide to ignore facts). Nergaal ( talk) 12:38, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
I see only one editor on this page who claims that Russian, Ukrainian and Gagauz are official languages of Moldova along with Moldovan, all the rest of editors who edited or expressed their opinions say something else. I suggest you stop trying to push your opinion over others', especially when you are in minority (actually the only one supporting this interpretation), please find at least another editor who agrees with you, before you revert the consensus built page. -- AdrianTM ( talk) 18:48, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
I've just reverted all of Moldopodo's and some of Nergaal's edits:
Moldopodo: 1. Please present at least one reliable secondary source stating that there is more than one official language in Moldova. 2. A section on relations with Russia is a good idea, however, it's currently too small and uninformative. Perhaps translating some info from the ru article might make it useful enough.
However, the day, the references to Moldovan, Russian, Ukrainian nand Gagauz will disappear from the Constituion and laws of the Republic of Moldova, thus removing any legal status of these languages in Moldova, the day the Parliament of the Republic of Moldova will modify the Constitution and write Romanian (provided no other referenes exist to other languages, as well as to the laws on functioning of languages (under which Moldovan falls just as Russian, Ukrainian and Gagauz), that day I will simply make one edit: "there is one official language (with official legal status) in Moldova: Romanian". This being only imagination, time to get back to the reality. Until that day the official languages with official legal status in the Republic of Moldova are: Moldovan, Russian, Ukrainian and Gagauz, in accordance with the article 13 of Constitution of the Republic of Moldova and in accordance with laws to which it exlicitely refers. Respectfully -- Moldopodo ( talk) 17:59, 22 November 2007 (UTC)Moldopodo
Nergaal: 1. That Cazacu guy doesn't strike me as a " neutral, unbiased, seemingly objective,well-referenced american author from 1927". In fact, that passage you used reads like an inflammatory pamphlet. If you absolutely must reference him, please present his opinion on the situation as an opinion, not objective truth. 2. This is a "by the book" example of WP:SYNTH. (Sorry, marked my last edit as "minor" by accident). -- Illythr ( talk) 13:09, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
"Cazacu (1912), A Century of Serfdom, < http://depts.washington.edu/cartah/text_archive/clark/bc_24.shtml> text: "The Russians are now holding their celebration of a century of material possession of Bessarabia. But her spirit they do not possess, nor shall they ever possess it. In the celebration of the Russians, the Moldavians have no share except that of deep and painful silence. The whole Roumanian people feels this pain, and does not lose hope that Bessarabia, and with her the Roumanian people, will have a chance to celebrate in her turn the day of salvation. It will come. History repeats itself so often, and the historical maxim remains: Babylon was, the Empire of Alexander of Macedon was, the Roman Empire was, the Byzantine Empire was, and the time will come to say of other empires also-they were. Not so long ago was 1855 with the Crimea, and not so long ago was Port Arthur and Tzushima, and-Great is the Lord God of Hosts!-it will be again, surely it will be again!" " Nergaal ( talk) 13:58, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Well, I see you're not exactly willing to seek consensus before pushing your edits through, either. -- Illythr ( talk) 14:57, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Constitution of the Republic of Moldova Article 13. The National Language, Use of Other Languages |
---|
(1) The state language of the Republic of Moldova is Moldovan, and its writing is based on the Latin alphabet. |
(2) The Moldovan State acknowledges and protects the right to preserve, develop and use the Russian language and other languages spoken within the national territory of the country. |
(3) The State will encourage and promote studies of foreign languages enjoying widespread international usage. |
(4) The use of languages in the territory of the Republic of Moldova will be established by organic law. end of citation of article 13 of Constitution |
Organic Laws |
1) Law regarding the Functioning of Languages on the Territory of Moldavian SSR
[8]. 2) Decision of Parliament regarding "Implementation of the law regarding Functioning of Languages on the Territory of Moldavian SSR" [9]. 3) Article 6 of the Law regarding Basic Provisions of the Special Legal Status of the Dniestr Left bank Localities (Transnistria) [10]. (1) Transnistria has its own symbols (heraldry), which are applied together with the symbols of the Republic of Moldova. (2) Official languages of Transnistria are Moldavian written in Latin alphabet, Ukrainian and Russian languages. The Republic of Moldova guarantees functioning of other language on the territory of Transnistria. (3) Record keeping, as well as correspondence with public power intitutions of the Republic of Moldova, companies, organisations and institutions, situated abroad from Transnistria, are held in Moldavian language written in Latin alphabet and Russian language. |
Official language
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia |
An official language is a language that is given a special legal status in the countries, states, and other territories. It is typically the language used in a nation's legislative bodies, though the law in many nations requires that government documents be produced in other languages as well. Official status can also be used to give a language (often indigenous) legal status, even if that language is not widely spoken.
An official language is not to be confused with a national language, although the national language may be official if given legal recognition by the government. One of the official languages of sierre leone is French. |
Comparative law as an example |
Three official languages in Luxembourg:
Multilingualism in Luxembourg belongs to the everyday life of Luxembourg's population.
Article 29 of Constitution of the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg [11]: (Modified on 6 May 1948) "The law will regulate the use of languages in administrative and judicial matters." The law of 24 February 1984 about the use of the languages in Luxembourg is (translated from French):
In most other multilingual countries, such as Switzerland or Canada, the distribution of the languages is geographic, but in Luxembourg it is functional. 'Functional' means that the use of the language depends on the situation. |
Comparative law as an example - equivalent provisions in Moldovan law |
Article 6 of the Law regarding Functioning of Languages: Regarding institutions of state power, state administration and public organisations, as well as companies, other instituions and organisations located on the territory of the Moldavian SSR, the language of oral and written communction - Moldavian or Russian - is chosen by the citizen. The citizen's right to use Gagauz language in the aforementioned conditions is guaranteed in localities with population of Gagauz nationality. In localities, where the majority of population is composed of Ukrainian, Russian, Bulgarian nationalities, the native or other convenient language is used. |
Therefore, there are four official languages in Moldova:
1) Moldavian language (wich is the same as Romanian linguisticly and scientificly, however no legal reference to Romanian exists in Moldovan legislation)
2) Russian language (language of international communication (as stipulated by the Moldovan law) [12] (official "state" language in Transnistria and Gagauzia)
3) Ukrainian language [13] which used to be legal language of the Modavian Principality (как актовый язык Молдавского княжества) [14], which is official "state" language in the easten cantons of Moldova. (official language in Transnistria)
4) Gagauz language, which is official "state" language in the southern autonomous region Gagauzia.
Moreover, as per evidence cited above, Romani language, Hebrew language and Bulgarian language enjoy a clearly established legal status in Moldova. What we need here is to establish the list of localities where the population is really majority of respective nationalities and speaks these languages.
Please, refer to langauges articles in multinational countries, like Switzerland (where they not simply name the language, but specify the country Swiss German, Swiss French, Swiss Italian and leave only Romansh without country reference, for example. I think articles Moldovan Romanian, Moldovan Russian, Moldovan Ukrainian and Gagauz might be more appropriate as simply language reference without country mention. There one could write not only about linguistic aspects, but also about the number of speakers, specific regions of Moldova, etc. For example the article Moldovan Romanian one could start: The Romanian language is officially called in Moldova "Moldovan". And then explain the identity, controversy, political issues related to this.
I do not think it is necessary to write more than two paragraphs on each language on the Moldova page proper. The rest should be put in the aforemnetioned relevant "language articles". Moldopodo ( talk) 08:54, 24 November 2007 (UTC)Moldopodo
Why did you ignore Article 35? If you want to have an objective conclusion, you HAVE to include all the relevant facts. And asricle 35 states:
Article 35. (3) In all forms of educational institutions the study of the country's official language will be ensured.
Everything you have stated before can be INTERPRETED the way you said. But article 35 STATES that there is one THE COUNTRY'S OFFICIAL LANGUAGE. точка Nergaal ( talk) 09:57, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
Article 35 The right to education (Constitution of the Republic of Moldova)
(1) The right to education is provided through compulsory general education, lyceum and professional education, higher education, as well as other forms of education and continuous training.
(2) The state guarantees the citizen's choice of education and instruction language in acordance with the law.
(3) The learning of state language is provided in institutions of all levels.
(4) State (public) education is free.
(5) Education institutions, including non-governmental, are created and carry out their activity in acordance with the law.
(6) Higher education institutions are entitled to the right for autonomy.
(7) The state lyceum, professional and higher education is equally accessible to all independently from capacities.
(8) The state provides, in accordance with the law, the freedom of religion education. State education is of secular character.
(9) Priority right to chose the education sphere of children belongs to parents.
As you insist, let's cite the whole article, and not only paragraph 3. As you can see, the preceeding paragraph 2, clearly establishes the right of Moldavian citizen to chose the languge of their education (which means there is more than one, since the choice is given, otherwise why bother to give a choice if there is only one official language?), in accordance with the law. Paragraph 3 (the one you cited), nor by the way any paragraph in this law, stipulates nothing on what the official languages in Moldova are.
Now, let's see what says the Law on Education [16]
Article 8. Language of education
(1) The state provides in accordance with Constitution and articles 18, 19 and 20 of the Law on Functioning of Languages on the Territory of the Republic of Moldova [17], the right to chose the langauge for education and instruction at all levels of education.
(2) The right of citizens to education in native language si provided by creation of the necessary number of education institutions, classes, groups, as well as of conditions for their functioning.
(3) Learning of the state language of the Republic of Moldova is mandatory in all education institutions. The requirements to the learning of the state language are established by the state education standard. The Ministry of Education and Youth together with institutions of local public admnistration are responsible for the provision of the process of learning of state language in all education institutions. [Part 3 Art. 8 modified ZPC1208 06.12.2000/MO154 14.12.2000]
Now, let's have a look at the articles 18, 19 and 20 of the Law on functioning of languages [18] to which refers the aforementioned article 8, and to cite all, I will cite the whole chapter V.:
CHAPTER V. LANGUAGE IN THE FIELDS OF NATIONAL EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND CULTURE [19]
Article 18. The Moldavian SSR guarantees the right to receive prescolar education, general medium, medium special (technical), professional-technical and higher education in Moldavian and Russian languages and creates conditions for realisation for citizens with other nationalities, living in the Republic, of right to education in native language (Gagauz, Ukrainian, Bulgarian, Hebrew, Yiddish, etc.)
Article 19.
Prescolar institutions and secondary schools are created following the principle of single language. Record keeping, meetings, sessions, audiovisual information are carried out in these institutions in the language of instruction and education.
Prescolar institutions and secondary schools are created following the principle of bilingualism in those localities, where the number of children and students does not allow to open single language prescolar institutions and secondary schools. Meetings, sessions, audiovisual information are carried out in these institutions in the equal measure in respective education and instruction languages, whereas the record keeping is carried out in the state langauge.
Article 20.
In the special secondary, professional-technical and higher education institutions, the education is provided in state and Russian languages in specialities necessary to the Moldavian SSR. For satisfaction of economic and cultural needs of the Republic are created study groups and classes with teaching in langauges functioning on the territory of the Moldavian SSR (Gagauz, Ukrainian, Bulgarian, Yiddish, etc.). In the target nationality groups, the teaching of special objects is carried out in native language of pupils and students.
Article 21.
In the education institutions of all levels, the learning of Moldavian is provided as a study object - in classes and groups with Russian or other language of teaching (for students of Gagauz and Bulgarian antionalities - in the volume necessary for communication) and the teaching of Russian - in classes and groups with Moldavian or other langauge of teaching.
Pupils and students, upon graduation from the education institution pass graduation examination, respectively in Moldavian or Russian language, which creates conditions for enlargement of communication spheres on the whole territory of the Republic.
Article 22.
Moldavian SSR creates the necessary conditions for the development of Moldavian and Gagauz national science and culture, as well as for scientific and cultural activity in other languages, functioning in the Republic. The Ph.D exams are carried out in Moldavian, Russian or other language, determined by respective specialised council.
Article 23.
Scientific, scientific-practical conferences, symposia ans seminars, other activities of Republican importance are carried out in the state language (while Rusian translation is provided), whereas the all-Union importance activities - in Russian language.
Moldopodo ( talk) 14:54, 24 November 2007 (UTC)Moldopodo
I agree, only the Costitutional Court has that right. Please look at the following decision
1. Recunoaste constitutionale dispozitiile art.6 alin.(1), art.8
alin.(1) si (3), art.10, art.11 alin.(1) si art.12 alin.(1) din Legea nr.382-XV din 19 iulie 2001 "Cu privire la drepturile persoanelor apartinind minoritatilor nationale si la statutul juridic al organizatiilor lor", cu exceptia sintagmei "...si rusa" din art.10 in partea referitoare la denumirea localitatilor si strazilor si a sintagmei "...si rusa" din art.11 alin.(1). 2. Declara neconstitutionale sintagma "...si rusa" din art.10 in partea referitoare la denumirea localitatilor si strazilor si sintagma ...si rusa" din art.11 alin. (1) din Legea nr.382-XV din 19 iulie 2001 "Cu privire la drepturile persoanelor apartinind minoritatilor nationale si la statutul juridic al organizatiilor lor". 3. Declara neconstitutionala sintagma ...si limba rusa" din art.5 alin.(4) din Legea nr.100-XV din 26 aprilie 2001 "Privind actele de stare civila". 4. Prezenta Hotarire este definitiva, nu poate fi supusa nici unei cai de atac, intra in vigoare la data adoptarii si se publica in
"Monitorul Oficial al Republicii Moldova".
In a long decision, the court analyzes the usage of languages in Moldova based on the Constitution and the Law on Languages from 1989. The decision and their arguments reveals that they consider that since Moldovan is the state language, any mention of the Russian language at the official level is unconstitutional. The only area where documents may explicitly refer to other languages, including Russian is in the sphere of education, although documents bearing on civil matters should be translated in another language if requested.
I am glad that this debate is finally over. TSO1D ( talk) 16:25, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
Please see the valid organic law which gives legal status to languages in Moldova:
Published: 01.10.1989 in M.Of. No 009
MODIFIED ZP206/29.05.03; MO149/18.07.03 art.598
see also: DECISION No 3466 dated 01.09.1989 Decision "on the entry in force of the Law of Moldavian SSR "on Functioning of Languages on the Territory of the Moldavian SSR
Definition by the Constitution (Fundamental Law) of the Moldavian Soviet Socialist Republic of the status of Moldavian language as state language is aimed at to contribute the completeness of the Republic's souvereignity and creation of the necessary guarantees for its full-fledged and comprehensive realisaion in all spheres of political, economic, social and cultural life. The Moldavian SSR supports education and satisfaction of cultural needs of Moldavians living abroad in their native language, and taking in cosideration the reality of Moldo-Romanian linguistic identity - of Romanians, domiciled on the territory of the USSR.
Giving to Moldavian the status of state language, the Moldavian SSR guarantees protection of Constitutional rights and freedoms of citizens of any nationality, living on the territory of the Moldavian SSR, independently of the used language, in conditions of equality of all citizens before the law.
To provide state protection and guarantee the development of Gagauz language, Moldavian SSR provides the necessary guarantees for successive development of its social functions.
Moldavian SSR provides on its territory conditions for usage and development of Russian language, as language of international (interethnic) communicaton in the USSR, as well as of languages of other nationalities living in the Republic.
There is no debate, because it's clear from the laws and Constitution how many official languages in Moldova are - four: Moldovan, Russian, Ukrainian and Gagauz. I am glad you agree with me at the end, TSO1D. Moldopodo ( talk) 16:39, 24 November 2007 (UTC)Moldopodo
Wikipedia policy states that:"Primary sources that have been published by a reliable source may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. For that reason, anyone—without specialist knowledge—who reads the primary source should be able to verify that the Wikipedia passage agrees with the primary source.
"A tertiary source is a publication such as an encyclopedia or other compendium that sums up other secondary sources and primary sources. Many introductory textbooks may also be considered tertiary to the extent they sum up widely accepted results of large amounts of primary and secondary sources. Tertiary sources can be useful in avoiding original research in topics where there exist very large amounts of primary and/or secondary sources."
Since we are disagreeing about the content of primary sources, the only solution is to look at existing analyses from credible sources, and here we have plenty of those. Look at Britannica, Encarta, Columbia, etc. So since discussing primary sources will get us nowhere, if you have a credible secondary source or tertiary source supporting your position, please provide that, otherwise I see no point in continuing this dicussion. TSO1D ( talk) 16:57, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
Moldo still cannot understand that there is a difference between official language and use of language is protected by state. Here is a credible source, the official site of the Moldovan government, in Moldovan languange. [20] "Studierea limbii de stat se asigură în instituţiile de învăţămînt de toate gradele." Which anybody will be able to tell you that translates literaly as: the study of THE STATE language is ensured in all educational institutions at all level/grades. THEREFORE: there is A SINGLE STATE LANGUAGE. There might be more official languages, but there is a single state language. End of discussion. Nergaal ( talk) 05:49, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
TSO1D, There is no need to discuss the primary sources, they are clear. You are engaging all the time in their discussion, because apparently you find them not convenient for your arguments.
Nergaal, your unsourced passage (law, Constitution, what is this?) the study of THE STATE language is ensured in all educational institutions at all level/grades is completely irrelevant to the determination of official languages of Moldova with legal status. Anyway, the article 35 of Constiution, to which you probably refer, says in the preceeding line: that any Moldavian citizen has a right to chose the language of education. Here is the exact citation: (2) The state guarantees THE CITIZEN'S CHOICE OF EDUCATION AND INSTRUCTION LANGUAGE in acordance with the law. Moldopodo ( talk) 10:19, 25 November 2007 (UTC)Moldopodo
Article 8. Language of education
(1) The state provides in accordance with Constitution and articles 18, 19 and 20 of the Law on Functioning of Languages on the Territory of the Republic of Moldova, the right to chose the langauge for education and instruction at all levels of education.
(2) The right of citizens to education in native language si provided by creation of the necessary number of education institutions, classes, groups, as well as of conditions for their functioning.
(3) Learning of the state language of the Republic of Moldova is mandatory in all education institutions. The requirements to the learning of the state language are established by the state education standard. The Ministry of Education and Youth together with institutions of local public admnistration are responsible for the provision of the process of learning of state language in all education institutions. [Part 3 Art. 8 modified ZPC1208 06.12.2000/MO154 14.12.2000]
You can find all proisions on education of the Law on Functioning of Languages in Moldova clicking here: [21] Moldopodo ( talk) 13:06, 25 November 2007 (UTC)Moldopodo
Hey, Moldopodo, could you present a diff to you claim that I, or anyone else for that matter, actually agreed with your four languages idea? Or how agreeing that the wishy-washy en:wiki definition of what an official language is allows you to interpret the Moldovan Constitution the way you do means agreeing with your position? -- Illythr ( talk) 18:42, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
Anyhow, this entire debate is quite pointless. You yourself have pointed out the fact that Moldovan legislation does not explicitly define what an official language is. Therefore, before making any mainspace edits to that end, you need to acquire a secondary (e.g. a reliable research or an article in a respectable source) or tertiary (e.g. an encyclopedia article) source stating that official languages in all of Moldova are Moldovan, Russian, Gagauz and Ukrainian. So far, every such source presented here contradicts your claims in a most straightforward manner. -- Illythr ( talk) 18:42, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
An official language is a language that is given a special legal status in the countries, states, and other territories. It is typically the language used in a nation's legislative bodies, though the law in many nations requires that government documents be produced in other languages as well. Official status can also be used to give a language (often indigenous) legal status, even if that language is not widely spoken.
An official language is not to be confused with a national language, although the national language may be official if given legal recognition by the government.
1) All of the four languages have special, moreover - specifically detailed, legal status in the Law on Functioning of Languages of 1989 and in the Law on Transninstria of 2005.
2) All of them are also legally "official" languages in specific regions of Moldova: Transnistria and Gagauzia. Moldopodo ( talk) 19:14, 25 November 2007 (UTC)Moldopodo
As for presentation of langauges in teh artcile on Moldova, I think we should take example of articles on Luxembourg, Switzerland, Belgium. In the section Demographics, further subsection Languages we could write a total of eight equivalent concise paragrpahs, with two on each language. The first paragraph could deal with the legal status, in the second we could put demographics data: percentages of people speaking, localities, examples of linguistic particularities. Further we could create more detailed articles called either Moldovan Romanian, Moldovan Russian, Moldovan Ukrainian, Moldovan Gagauz (however, since it's official only in Moldova, we may want to live the actual name of the article Gagauz language) or called Russian in Moldova, Romanian in Moldova, Gagauz in Moldova, Ukrainian in Moldova, where we could describe extensively the history, controversies, etc... Therefore I think all four of them should be present in the infobox in one line, one after another, and not in footnotes.
A good and very similar example is Luxembourg, where the Constitution refers to the law on "usage of languages" (just as Moldovan Constitution refers to the law on "functioning of languages"), and where the Luxembougish relevant law says Luxmbourgish is the "national" language (like Moldovan is "state" language) however, French is used for legal spheres and German for administrative purposes (like Russian, Gagauz and Ukrainian in Moldova). Nonetheless, all three languages are considered official in Luxembourg, even though in international organisations Luxembourg is represented by French language only (whereas Moldovan Minsters may use as Romanian, just as Russian at international conferences). Also have a look at Switzerland and their situation with Rumantsch language wich is spoken by a minority of Swiss citizen (just as Gagauz language in Moldova). Nonetheless, Rumantsch is conisdered as official langauge as well. Offtopic: By the way, do you remember what said Snegur before he became the first President of the Republic of Moldova? - "I will make it a second Switzerland". Well, I do not know about economy, but as far as languages are concerned we have a very similar position today, thanks to the article 13 of Moldovan Constitution, Law on Functioning of Languages of 1989 and Law on Transnistria of 2005.
I also support writing Moldovan in the infobox as well as every time we refer to a language officially spoken in the Republic of Moldova (like in the infobox for example). This means I am for the pure and simple version: Moldovan instead of Moldovan/Romanian. However, every time we refer to the language simply linguisticly, we should use simply Romanian, and not Moldavian/Romanian.
As for people and ethnies. Even in Romania Moldovans are considered as a separate ethnicity. Even though Moldovan may be understood in two ways: 1) Moldovan citizen, independently of one of the four languages spoken as native language, and 2) Moldovan ethnicly, having Romanian (as spoken in the Republic of Moldova, whose Romanian is different not only from Romanain spoken in Romania generally, but even from Romanian spoken in the bordering with the Republic of Moldova province of Moldova in Romania) as a native language. So when we are talking about censuses, for example, and in any other context, we cannot mix two different ethnicities. Moldopodo ( talk) 23:01, 27 November 2007 (UTC)Moldopodo
Moldovan language, Russian language, Ukrainian language, Gagauz language go together, this goes without saying as per evidence cited above. As for footnote we could put there Romani language, Hebrew language, Bulgarian language, and then add a little section in the langauges susbsection, and shortly and very concisely explain their status and localities where these languages are spoken in Moldova. Moldopodo ( talk) 11:56, 28 November 2007 (UTC)Moldopodo
Moldopodo, the reason I mentioned Austria and Spain, is because in both of those countries, like in Moldova, there is only one language that is official at the national level, although other languages are coofficial at the local level. On the other hand, in the examples you provided, the countries are federal entitites or have multiple languages official at the national level. For instance, the same would apply to Canada, which is officially bilingual at the state level. However, in Moldova, you admit that the other three languages are only official at the local level, hence the Austrian and Spanish examples.
As for the language section, the reason that section exclusively deals with the Moldovan/Romanian dispute is that that is found in the cultural section and mostly describes a cultural aspect, i.e., whether the languages are the same. On the other hand, if you wish to discuss the various languages spoken in Moldova, that should go into the government/politics section, though in very concise form. Of course, if you wish to discuss the cultural aspects of the other languages, such as Russian, Ukrainaina, or Gagauz cultural activity in Moldova, not only would I agree to that, but I would highly encourage you to add such information. TSO1D ( talk) 14:12, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Can somebody please clear away these huge quotes from legal texts that have cluttered this page? It's entirely unreadable. Since apparently all these texts are easily available on Wikisource, it's entirely sufficient to just link to there, rather than copy the whole bulk here. Thank you, Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:33, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
Here is my new proposal on the history part of the lead (based on all the suggestions given until now):
Most of its territory was historically part of the medieval Principality of Moldavia, and was ceded to the Russian Empire in 1812, as part of Bessarabia. In 1918, after the collapse of the Russian Empire, the National Assembly of Bessarabia voted almost unanimously towards union with Romania. [6] [7] But during World War II, with the agreements of Ribbentrop-Molotov pact, Bessarabia was allowed by the Third Reich to fall under the sphere of influence of USSR. After an ultimatum from USSR the Romanian government and army retreated from Bessarabia in 1941 [3] - which was then split between the Ukrainian SSR and the newly-created Moldavian SSR. The latter declared its independence from the USSR on August 27, 1991, as Republic of Moldova.
Nergaal 04:27, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
Most of its territory was historically part of the medieval Principality of Moldavia, and was ceded by its Ottoman suzerain to the Russian Empire in 1812, as part of Bessarabia. In 1918, after the collapse of the Empire, the National Assembly of Bessarabia voted towards a union with Romania. [8] [9] During World War II, with the agreements of Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, Bessarabia was allowed by the Third Reich to fall under the sphere of influence of USSR. After receiving an ultimatum from the USSR the Romanian government and army retreated from Bessarabia in 1940 [3] - which was then split between the Ukrainian SSR and the newly-created Moldavian SSR. The latter declared its independence on August 27, 1991, as the Republic of Moldova.
I don't like the "almost unanimously" part in the lead, because, while technically true, it gives the impression that the union was a nice and fluffy event, which it wasn't. As there's no place in the lead to explain all the complications of that process, I think that just stating that it voted in favor should be enough. Same goes for the 1812 ceding and the 1941-1944 events, although the 1947 recognition by Romania that MSSR is a part of the USSR may be squeezed in at some point. -- Illythr 02:44, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
During the retreat, the Romanian Army was attacked by the Soviet Army, which entered Bessarabia before the Romanian administration finished retreating - some 42,876 Romanian soldiers died or disappeared
Second, about development of Moldavian SSR in 1970-1980. I changed "highly qualified specialists" to "qualified specialists", since the first formulation works really only for the experts in the filed, IMHO. Adding "highly" makes the whole sentence non-serious, IMHO. The influx stopped with the independence of Moldova, when the Gosplan was not doing any more the economic policy. It has nothing to do with Belovezha, where the leaders of 3 foreign countries decided something that mattered mostly for them. By then, Moldova was recognized by most European and North Atlantic countries. Finally, we all know what "investment" means in market economy accounting practice, and what it meant in the planned economy. I erased one of the two occurrences. Anyway, I'm obviously open to further suggestions.: Dc76\ talk 20:39, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Romanians are still waiting to unite with Moldova. -- 116.214.31.93 ( talk) 19:12, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
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