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The question regarding the propriety of using the term Romanian to describe the official language of the Republic of Moldova revolves around the question of whether the term is synonimous with Moldovan from I) a linguistic perspective, II) whether the people of the Moldova use this term when describing their native language, and III) whether the term Romanian language is used in official state documents.
I. The literary form of the Moldovan tongue is identical to Romanian. For native speakers, this fact is self-evident and experts in linguistic have also proven this relationship, as there are vitually no differences between the two tongues, barring a minor grammatical discrepancy (regarding the usage of î vs. â), a differnce that does not even hold true for the full extent of Romania and Moldova. The Moldovan language was merely the renaming of Romanian for political motives undertaken during Stalin's regime in order to justify the forceful takeover of Bessarabia. Nevertheless, the cultural unity of the Principality of Moldova that lasted for centuries could not be destroyed by 150 years of Russian occupation (1812-1918 and 1939-1991) and the language of the people on the two sides of the Prut remained the same. The very premise of the existence of a separate language in Moldova is absurd and contradicts common sense.
II. Despite of years of Sovietic propaganda whereby the distinct status of the Moldovan people and language where emphasized, 55% of respondents in the current Moldovan census have declared their native tongue as Romanian. Among people who received a tertiary level of education, this percentage is much greater.
III. Various documents have utilized the "Moldovan" or "Romanian" names of the language depending on the political climate, although the Moldo-Romanian linguistic unity has vitually never been disputed at the government level. The 1989 Law on Languages declares the Moldovan language the state language, however it recognizes the Moldo-Romanian linguistic identity. The 1991 Declaration of Independence ( http://www.country-data.com/frd/cs/moldova/md_appnd.html) when referring to the 1989 law states "laws and decisions of the Parliament of the Republic of Moldova concerning the laws reintroducing Romanian as the state language and the Latin alphabet on August 31, 1989". Thus although in the original Law on Languages, the term Moldovan was used, the Declaration states that the document referred to the Romanian language thus demonstrating the interchangability of the word in official use. The 1994 Constitution adopted the Moldovan term due to the political climate that existed at that period when the ruling Agrarian Party opposed union with Romania and opposed the attempts of the Popular Front to bring about a greater level of unity between the two nations. Nevertheless, to this date, various official documents have used both terms when describing the state language as is reflected on offical government sites where the option of Romanian exists but not Moldovan such as http://www.statistica.md.
In addition to all these arguments, one must take into account the fact that the term Romanian is better known by the general global populace and numerous international organizations prefer to use this term when referring to the main language of Moldova (or at least us it alongside Moldovan to prevent confusion). In my view using the term Romanian in parantheses next to Moldovan in the Wikipedia article as the majority of other international sources have done is perfectly logical. A simple search for language of Moldova demonstrates that the majority of sites and documents use both terms or simply Romanian. There is no reason for Wikipedia to not follow this general rule. TSO1D 23:52, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
TSO1D 00:14, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
BTW, î vs. â is orthography, not grammar. - Jmabel | Talk 03:43, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I am not sure how the language issue is treated in South America. I don't think there are Bolivian, Venezuelan, Argentinian languages, I think all those people speak Spanish (even though the dialectal differences are probably bigger between the Spanish in Argentina and the Spanish in Venezuela than between Romanian in Romania and Romanian in Moldova, same situation with English in US and UK). I also think that we need to use the linguistic criterium not political. For Russians to understand this idea: it's like saying that Russians in Kazakhstan speak Kazakian (or pick any other name you want) not Russian. Languages should be defined by linguists, not politicians. (by the way, there are many countries that speak the same language but the are still different states, it's silly to define statehood by inventing a language) AdrianTM 15:04, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
No matter if this is a linguistic or political issue, it still remains a problem. How can be otherwise, when Moldavian people don't know which language they speak? The majority of them are confused, not mentioning about children, who one day are told to learn Romanian and another day - Moldavian. Even if in fact they learn the same, the problem is still open as nobody knows what language exactly they speak. I think this situation has 2 points of view which need to be analyzed:
Although a Romanian-Moldavian dictionary was published years ago, in fact is one language, with the same roots. The situation is similar to American-UK-Austrian English. Although there are different slang and pronunciations, it still remains English. So it's absurd to have two names for one language.
Let's analyze from historical point of view: Moldova as a country appeared much earlier then Romania itself. Logical it means that Moldavian language appeared much early then Romanian; although at that time the problem of having an official language was not discussed.
The language used in the song is Romanian. Anybody who knows Romanian can attest that. I don't know what they mean by calling the official language "Moldovan", however this is Romanian. The song is tought in Romania too (and not as a foreign language song) AdrianTM 21:18, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
If Moldovans speak romanian and they are the same people as moldovans from Romania, how come that is not allowed to have the text: Moldovans ( Romanians) since Moldovans are Romanians? Can one give me a resonable proof that they are not identical? Iasi 06:24, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
e convinced of the difference, and support this oppinion.
I have mixed views on this subject. On one hand, it makes sense to directly use data from the RM census which lists Romanians and Moldovans as two separate ethnic groups. Nevertheless, from an analytical perspective, this differentiation is rather absurd as the Moldova on the Eastern side of the Prut that now constitutes the Republic of Moldova was only separated from the main Principality of Moldova in 1812. To state that ethnic changes occured in that region in 150 years (excluding the time that Bessarabia and Romania were reunified) is absolutely illogical. Having a separate category for Moldovans and Romanians who are somethimes actually part of the same family appears ridiculous. For this reason numerous influential international organizations and sources use the term Romanian or MOldovan (Romanian) when referring to the ethnicity. One solution might be to proceed like the Austrians who when declaring their main ethnos write German Speaker as opposed to German or Austrian. A similar design could be applied to our specific case and call the people Romanian-speakers. Nevertheless, this category does not appear in any official Moldovan documents and I have some reservations about implementing it in Wikipedia first. TSO1D 20:19, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't believe that this article is the correct venue for for a long commentary on whether Romanian identity of the Moldovans. I wouldn't like to re-arrange the official results either as they have been collected that way by the government. However perhaps in order to reflect the realities of the situation it might be better as a compromise to combine the Moldovan and Romanian data into a Romanian-speaking category and below that have two indented sub-categories that will reflect how people actually declared themsleves. Something like this:
According to the 2004 Moldovan Census:
TSO1D 02:45, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
So, after reading all this conclusion may be only one: Moldovans are Romanians.-- Iasi 06:39, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Indeed the problem is very complex. Even if in the Population Census it is written moldovans and romanians it is also very important to mention that every moldovan does not see a difference from being romanian called moldovan. What? A moldovan from Romania does not consider himself a romanian? Of course yes, and using the same logic any moldovan which call himself a moldovan accept the fact that he belongs to the romanianism. Iasi 06:53, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
I am totally with Mikka on this and I am surprized that after similar debates elsewhere in Ukrainian topics we have to discuss this with same users. Census data is not for Wikipedians to process, add or subtract. Present it as is and add a footnote, if necessary. At the footnoe give referenced criticism of the census from the observers (if there is any) not a general voiceful speech. That's how to deal with this issue rather than give a Wikipedian produced number in a table. Someone will add up Ukrainians and Russians as "Slavs" in Transnistria article and will claim that Moldavians are a minority rather than plurality. This is all absurd. Don't tamper with census data and provide a referenced criticism at talk. -- Irpen 08:08, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Okay thanks. But like I told you on your talk page now the present text is missleading. --
Iasi
08:29, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Not entirely true. When they don't consider that means the followings:
1. They are not moldovans, because they belong to other minority e.g. russian-speakers, ukr.-speakers, ...
2. They say primarly moldovans but they meant Romanians because any link related to Moldova must relate to Romania also. It's a very strong connection between them, a inner connection.
3. What are moldovans from Romania if not romanians? E.g. Moldovans from Iaşi? Iasi 08:37, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
So...it's very correct to have something like this: Moldovans( Romanians). Iasi 08:48, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
As long as the census data says Moldovans, the issue of who considers themsleves how is a side one for the purpose of the infobox. As I say, if the census numbers are suspicious and there are serious sources that say so, not a Wikipedian's opinion or a natinalist article in a tabloid, fine. Use the ref to explain what's wrong with the census. In no way this justifies Bonaparte to substitute the official and sourced statistics by his own math. This is not a grade-2 math class to excersise adding numbers. -- Irpen 09:19, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
What Census says is POV, Moldovan Goverment POV in this case. Census doesn't says that Moldovans are not Romanians. What is more important? To have a missleading text or to have a better one? Why are you so against in having an explanatory text? I see no problem in fact that Moldovans are Romanians.
Do you think that is an indentity crisis about here? That Moldovans are not Romanians? Since they do speak the same language, have the same history that means are the same people.
One last question: a moldovan from Iaşi who is a moldovan is or is not a romanian? Iasi 09:58, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Bogdan, whatever such allegations are there, they belong to the text of the article in a balanced and unbiased form (if at all). Please no one sided cherry-picked quotes. If there are differences of opinions, both sides should be represented. And, in no way this affects how we present the census results, that is we present them as they are and comment on them separately. Wikipedians doing their own math with the numbers is unacceptable. -- Irpen 23:28, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
So much fun to read all this. "Don't cry wolf, Zserghei"...It seems that he's an active supporter of those bluddy Soviets. They censored my text...bluddy Soviets :(
Ambassador Pamela Hyde Smith's Declaration on Independence Day 2003 :
You need more? I'll find you several hudred refs. `' mikka (t) 01:46, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
`' mikka (t) 02:03, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Since Moldovans are Romanians what kind of difference do you expect? Iasi 05:48, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't even get the fact that this debate continues. What is it that you don't understand in the sentence "Moldova does not call itself multicultural, ergo we should not call it that". The only thing that could be "proven" so far is that somebody else calls it that, and the sources cited fall into contradiction with what Zserghei was advocating when he got the sentence in there. People who promote this sentence have been editing this article for what is now a year (I think). At no time up to now was the question of "multiculturality" ever raised, to my knowledge. People who advocate getting the sentence in there have erased other's edits, have been combating others' POV, etc etc. And yet, no concept of "Moldova's multiculturality" ever stemmed from their keyboards. Please, help me get it right: did Moldova radically change her laws yesterday? Did any of you lead a coup in Chişinău? Are there now two or three states named "Moldova", and I'm on the page for the wrong one? Add to these that my original comments got no reply other than "I never claimed that". It took two or three edits for someone to get the false and biased sentence back in there, without taking into consideration what I and others have said against it. What am I to understand? You are not responsible for your actions? Dahn 09:15, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
So, instead of answering my plain and simple three questions you want to engage into political attacks onto a "little group" of stupid racists. Godd day to you all. <Plonk>. `' mikka (t) 20:00, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
A very good conclusion: some people here try to make Moldova seem as unrelated to Romania as possible. Iasi 06:21, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
I suggest to make a POOL. Let's see who is the winner here. I can bet that Romanians. Romanians are more united and have better interests than this bunch of idiots. Iasi 06:21, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
To both Zserghei and Dpotop: oppinions and votes have clear limitations when it comes to logic, and you may know this applies for your own POVs. These are:
The word "multicultural" means nothing if not properly defined. As it is used today by politicians and ambassadors, it's just a slogan saying "you're good guys, not bad ones". As for Moldova, saying that it does encourage ethnic minorities does not mean that it is different from, say, Romania, or France. Both of which are not defining themselves as multicultural. Dpotop 07:43, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Why do you cite all the time Adrianople? I sincerely don't have a clue. :) Dpotop 16:13, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
The sample below taken from the Constitutions of Moldova and Romania demonstrates that a formal text in Romanian and Moldovan is identical.
Moldova File:FlagOfMoldova.png | Romania
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English
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---|---|---|
TITLUL I: Principii Generale | TITLUL I: Principii Generale | FIRST TITLE: General Principles |
Articolul 1
Statul Republica Moldova |
Articolul 1
Statul român |
Article 1 (Romanian/Republic of Moldova State) |
(1) Republica Moldova este un stat suveran şi independent, unitar şi indivizibil. | (1) România este stat naţional, suveran şi independent, unitar şi indivizibil. | (1) Romania/Republic of Moldova is a national, independent, united, and indivisible state. |
(2) Forma de guvernămînt a statului este republica. | (2) Forma de guvernământ a statului român este republica. | (2) The form of government of the state is republican. |
(3) Republica Moldova este un stat de drept, democratic, în care demnitatea omului, drepturile şi libertăţile ... | (3) România este stat de drept, democratic şi social, în care demnitatea omului, drepturile şi libertăţile ... | Romania/Republic of Moldova is a state of law, democratic and social, in which the human dignity, rights and liberties... |
[1] | [2] | Links to the official page of Constitution for both countries |
This law still aplies: [3]
Law regarding the usage of languages spoken on the territory of the Republic of Moldova): "Moldavian RSS supports the desire of the Moldovans that live across the borders of the Republic, and considering the really existing linguistical Moldo-Romanian identity - of the Romanians that live on the territory of the USSR, of doing their studies and satisfying their cultural needs in their maternal language." [4]
and so on...
In the 2004 census out of the 3,383,332 population of Moldova, 16.5% (558,508) chose Romanian as their mother tongue, whereas 60% chose Moldovan. But this procent varies from the cities to the country side. In the cities, 40% of the Romanian/Moldovan speakers chose Romanian as their mother tongue, whereas in the country side each 7th Romanian/Moldovan speaker chose Romanian as his mother tongue; that is even though only 2% of the population of Moldova declared itself of Romanian ethnicity.
It is also important to note, that the group of international observers from the Council of Europe, that supervised the census, underlined that 7 of the 10 observer teams noted an important number of cases when peope were advised to declare themselves Moldovans or Moldovan speakers (more info here).
For detalied information about the relation Moldovan-Romanian in the 2004 census see the table at ro:Limba_moldovenească#Distribuţie_geografică or the National Bureau of Statistics of Moldova.
-- Danutz
I think that in this case Wiki rules on official data "have to be used with care" as argued by the international observers to the census. In fact the sentence "have to be used with care" is taken verbatum from what those observers said. They ment it exclusively in cases like these when we try to provide a reader with info on Moldova. The CIA world factbook seems to have taken the advice. Why can't we?
A number of users have engaged in a very unproductive revert war. Please, if you have some disagreements please post them here first and we shall try to adress them one by one. Constantzeanu 00:46, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
I moved the word Romanian from the top of the infobox to the footnotes and added the sentence Moldavian is commonly considered as another name for ( Romanian). Official language is, as per Wikipedia's definition and guidelines, the language noted as such in a country's constitution. I also removed the comparison between Romanian and Moldavian, as this is a direct copy from the text in Moldavian language. We have discussed over this issue several times and seem to be getting nowhere at all. I have no time to leave this note as User:Alexander 007 (currently blocked?) has already reverted them-- Asterion 15:06, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
In your last edits on the Moldova article, you have marked the changes as a minor edit. This is not right. A minor edit generally implies trivial changes only, such as typo corrections, formatting and presentational changes and rearranging of text without changing any content. Therefore, any change that affects the meaning of an article is not minor, even if it involves one word. The distinction between major and minor edits is significant because you may decide to ignore minor edits when viewing recent changes; logged-in users can even set their preferences to not display them. No one wants to be fooled into ignoring a significant change to an article simply because it was marked "minor." So remember to consider the opinions of other editors when choosing this option. -- Asterion 14:31, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Also, watch
your language. Please avoid using abusive
edit summaries as per
Wikipedia:Civility and
Wikipedia:No personal attacks. Thanks and happy editing. --
Asterion
14:35, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
PS: Leaving comments here as user's talk page seems to be blocked or protected. -- Asterion 15:00, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Asterion, I urge you to reconsider reverting the page and criticizing the other users, especially Alexander. The problem is that the language issue has been discussed numerous times and finally we seemed to have reached a consensus on leaving Romanian in parantheses but not going any further. You can see the more recent round of the discussion at the top of the page. The issue is very controversial, and we have spent a great amount of time trying to find the best solution. Alexander did not even support the inclusion of Romanian in parantheses in the beginning, but he fights for it now because that is the conclusion we reached. Do not become angry with him if he is a bit frustrated, but the issue absorbed much effort from numerous users and now you appear suddenly and revert the page without even reading the long discussion above. TSO1D 15:41, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
I will refrain from making further edits on this. However I must point out it goes against Wikipedia's own guidelines and definition of Official language. Regarding my criticism of Alexander 007, I simply pointed out he should not use offensive language. The outstanding point, for which I am still awaiting a reply, is the duplication of the Language comparison table on this article. This is completely redundant as it has been taken directly from the Moldovan language page, word by word indeed! -- Asterion 19:15, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Asterion, I am not a big supporter of the table, however just for your information it was not copied here from the Moldovan langauge page, but vice versa. The table existed on the Moldova page for a long period, then it was removed, then it reappeared, and finally it was moved to Moldovan language. TSO1D 20:51, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Someone just made a revert breaking any kind of dialog here. His user name is User:Mikkalai. -- 200.43.108.10 20:11, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't think one can be so rude not to see the whole debate above and to step like that into an edit war. -- Moldo 20:17, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
I also think that his edits bring no good to the whole article. -- Moldo 20:18, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Regarding your nationalism definition I must stress some things first:
-- Moldo 20:24, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
I had been answering to Dpotop who was claiming that Romania has been using the French model of "citizenship=ethnicity" (when he himself has proven that he does not believe this to be the case). Bottom line: official ideology has been, is, and will be ethno-nationalist (while misusing the "nation-state" label). This was not about how discrimination is "improving" (whatever that may mean), it was foremost about how Romania (unlike the textbook France or the textbook Netherlands), will always see "inner communities" beyond citizenship. The very fact that we are talking about "Gypsies" shows that Romanian nationalism is not as inclusive as Dpotop has claimed it is. Please, read my points again. Dahn 20:32, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
-- Moldo 20:37, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Remember now that all these concepts must be balanced one more time in European Union. Should it be a Europe of nations? Or should it be a Federal Europe? Imagine yourself EU in 10 years. More likely Moldova will get the status of Associated Country and who knows maybe even Member State of EU. How will be by then? -- Moldo 20:41, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Will that be a debate over having two romanian states in EU? These days have been a lot of solutions proposed, even from Russian politologs, that suggest for example a reunion of Moldova with Romania. -- Moldo 20:43, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
In www.ziua.ro have been presented a strong plan for solving any dispute wheather are romanians/moldovans or not.-- Moldo 20:44, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
GDP of Moldova is not the one expressed by the Gov. of Moldova. -- Bombonel 08:02, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
GDP is around 11 Billions $ and about 3000$ per capita. -- Bombonel 10:44, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Can one please explain me more in details what is this all about? A user named User:Khoikhoi just reverted a reasonable text bringing this argument. Is it really so? Are the readers well prepared to make the difference/decide whether Moldovans and Romanians are the same people or not? -- Hassion 17:56, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
In the demographics table I changed the heading "Moldovan and Romanian" to Daco-Romanian as the latter is a term that encompasses the two categories. It makes sense to use this term instead of simply repeating the subcategories, and I don't think there's any contrvoversy that Moldovans are Daco-Romanian. (Even Stati agrees). TSO1D 20:18, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Romanians from Moldova want to unite with Romania for 2 reasons:
As an EU member Romania attracts young people from Moldova to work for better wages. Now, the difference between Romania and Moldova are as high as 5 times. In Romania wages are around 500 € while in Moldova only 100 €.
A Moldovan identity doesn't exist. There is now a stronger unification movement that supports a future re-union. All political parties are becoming EU-Romania friendly
In external links perhaps there should be the link to the Moldovan Embassy in U.S. http://embassyrm.org/ That is the official website where U.S. citizens would get some information about Moldova and mainly, the application for a visa to Moldova.
NOTE:
When searching for "Moldova Embassy" on Google, the first result that appears is http://www.moldovaembassy.org/ which is not the embassy's address, but instead is a gateway to Consular Assistance, Inc. (www.consularassistance.com) a company based in Virginia. The WHOIS records clearly shows that both www.moldovaembassy.org is registered by the founder of Consular Assistance -- Radu Bujoreanu, also the former Consul of the Embassy of the Republic of Moldova in Washington, DC. according to the http://www.consularassistance.com/who.html
The business model of Consular Assistance consists basically in re-mailing the applications for Moldovan visas to the actual Moldovan Embassy for a $60 surcharge (normal visa fee is $40, they charge $100). This business model is probably not illegal, but is certainly deceptive. The deception is twofold:
1. Even though they claim to be "... gateway to Moldovan Embassies" they do not provide a link to the actual embassy page, that shows the intent to prevent individuals from finding the actual embassy visa application page in hopes that they would use their re-mailing service.
2. The web page and the url moldovaembassy.org shows an attempt to disguise themselves as the Embassy of Moldova in U.S.
Given those reasons, it seems that there should be a link to the official website of the Embassy of Moldova in U.S.
Also perhaps add the address of the U.S. Embassy in Moldova - http://moldova.usembassy.gov/
-- Ccabal 06:19, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Irpen, I noticed that you removed the Daco-Romanian super-category in the Moldova article. A few weeks ago the header read Romanian/Moldovan, and I replaced it with Daco-Romanian because that is what the definition of the latter word is. Nobody is trying to mislead the readers that the census had that category, however in my view it is logical to leave the two categories apart as the census was conducted this way, but to show their aggregate due to the close de facto relation between the two groups. As some members of various families declared themselves Moldovan, whereas others declared themselves as Romanian the difference between the categories is blurry, and simply presented their sum in addition to preserving the category used in the census makes sense. Once again, I did not introduce the super-category, just the name, and for about a month that seemed to work, even Mikka did not display any opposition to the design. I do not wish to enter into a revert war, and I would hate to see one between you and Contanteanu on this subject, I simply urge you to reanalyze the situation. TSO1D 20:28, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
TSO1D, I agree with everything in your verbal explanation. I disagree, however, that adding a supercat doesn't alter the data as this changes the presentation of the census. Census does not describe affiliation between the groups. No one adds Ukrainians and Russians to a supercat "East Slavs", while their both's belonging to an East Slavic group is not contested. Here is the census data in an unaltered from: [6]
When we say in the article that these are the census results, we should present them as such. If you think you then need to explain the grouping of census subgroups, by all means do that right after the census. Please give a thought to what would you say to someone adding the numbers and explaining that Ukrainians, Russians and Bulgarians are Slavs and the Slavic population of Moldova consistutes about 16%. But that's a separate issue. All I want for now is to have the census data processed outside of the census table. Elaboration even immediately below is fine by me. -- Irpen 01:59, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
I see that a new template has been substituted for the old "country infobox" template. The new design apparently causes some problems. I don't believe, however, that the new template will stay for long, so I urge you not to make radical changes yet. I just moved the portal down for now as that added an unnecessary new column under the new design. TSO1D 02:54, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
All the adjective entries such Moldavian, Moldavan, Moldovian etc. should be replace with Moldovan.
Moldavia was the russified version of Moldova, name imposed by the Soviet Union during the occupation. The adjective version became Moldavian, so the Soviets were talking about "Moldavian" wine, "Moldavian" land etc.
Today the official name of the country is "Republic of Moldova" or "Republica Moldova" in Romanian. The adjective version is thefore Moldovan. So instead of "Moldavian wine" it should be "Moldovan wine". "Moldavan culture" should be "Moldovan culture" etc.
NOTE: Today most Russians who live in Moldova would still insist on saying "Maldavia". Therefore just like in the case of Romanian vs. Moldovan language or nationality, this is a point of contention, and could start editing wars. Nevertheless the offical version should be present in the encyclopedia entry.
-- Ccabal 09:24, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Actually, it's not the Soviets that coined "Moldavia". If French, at least, "Moldavie" was used in the 19th century. And Cantemir uses "Descriptio Moldaviae", not "Descriptio Moldovae". It may be some degree of Russian/Slavic influence, but then 10% of Romanian is, too. Dpotop 19:15, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
The usage of the terms Romanian and Moldovan are directly interchangable, even in official use by the Moldovan government. Nevertheless, in this article it makes sense to choose the more suitable nuance of the word in various instances for historical or political reasons. In the case of the poem Limba Noastra, it was written in Romanian, before the development of a theoretical Moldovan language by Soviet linguists. Therefore in this case it is much more logical to use the term Romanian language. TSO1D 22:28, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for granting full points to Romania. We did the same to you. Soon, we will reunite, and then there will be no need for exchange of points. -- Candide, or Optimism 13:58, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
It says on the top of the page: '"Moldova" redirects here. For other uses, see Moldova (disambiguation).'
'Moldova' does not redirect here at all, that's the disambiguation page.
218.228.195.44 15:50, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Let me point out something: whoever created the article Moldova (Romanian region) is a con artist. Moldavia covers both the principality and the informal region of today. Whoever is denying that to underline the supposed legitimacy of his claims to the Republic of Moldova is in fact, without being aware of it, weakening the notion that Moldavia/Moldova united with Wallachia as a legitimate state, through a legitimate act (and chose to become "the region of Moldova"). Can that person see my point, or is he the challenged in ways I would tend to think he is? Dahn 17:04, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
The question regarding the propriety of using the term Romanian to describe the official language of the Republic of Moldova revolves around the question of whether the term is synonimous with Moldovan from I) a linguistic perspective, II) whether the people of the Moldova use this term when describing their native language, and III) whether the term Romanian language is used in official state documents.
I. The literary form of the Moldovan tongue is identical to Romanian. For native speakers, this fact is self-evident and experts in linguistic have also proven this relationship, as there are vitually no differences between the two tongues, barring a minor grammatical discrepancy (regarding the usage of î vs. â), a differnce that does not even hold true for the full extent of Romania and Moldova. The Moldovan language was merely the renaming of Romanian for political motives undertaken during Stalin's regime in order to justify the forceful takeover of Bessarabia. Nevertheless, the cultural unity of the Principality of Moldova that lasted for centuries could not be destroyed by 150 years of Russian occupation (1812-1918 and 1939-1991) and the language of the people on the two sides of the Prut remained the same. The very premise of the existence of a separate language in Moldova is absurd and contradicts common sense.
II. Despite of years of Sovietic propaganda whereby the distinct status of the Moldovan people and language where emphasized, 55% of respondents in the current Moldovan census have declared their native tongue as Romanian. Among people who received a tertiary level of education, this percentage is much greater.
III. Various documents have utilized the "Moldovan" or "Romanian" names of the language depending on the political climate, although the Moldo-Romanian linguistic unity has vitually never been disputed at the government level. The 1989 Law on Languages declares the Moldovan language the state language, however it recognizes the Moldo-Romanian linguistic identity. The 1991 Declaration of Independence ( http://www.country-data.com/frd/cs/moldova/md_appnd.html) when referring to the 1989 law states "laws and decisions of the Parliament of the Republic of Moldova concerning the laws reintroducing Romanian as the state language and the Latin alphabet on August 31, 1989". Thus although in the original Law on Languages, the term Moldovan was used, the Declaration states that the document referred to the Romanian language thus demonstrating the interchangability of the word in official use. The 1994 Constitution adopted the Moldovan term due to the political climate that existed at that period when the ruling Agrarian Party opposed union with Romania and opposed the attempts of the Popular Front to bring about a greater level of unity between the two nations. Nevertheless, to this date, various official documents have used both terms when describing the state language as is reflected on offical government sites where the option of Romanian exists but not Moldovan such as http://www.statistica.md.
In addition to all these arguments, one must take into account the fact that the term Romanian is better known by the general global populace and numerous international organizations prefer to use this term when referring to the main language of Moldova (or at least us it alongside Moldovan to prevent confusion). In my view using the term Romanian in parantheses next to Moldovan in the Wikipedia article as the majority of other international sources have done is perfectly logical. A simple search for language of Moldova demonstrates that the majority of sites and documents use both terms or simply Romanian. There is no reason for Wikipedia to not follow this general rule. TSO1D 23:52, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
TSO1D 00:14, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
BTW, î vs. â is orthography, not grammar. - Jmabel | Talk 03:43, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I am not sure how the language issue is treated in South America. I don't think there are Bolivian, Venezuelan, Argentinian languages, I think all those people speak Spanish (even though the dialectal differences are probably bigger between the Spanish in Argentina and the Spanish in Venezuela than between Romanian in Romania and Romanian in Moldova, same situation with English in US and UK). I also think that we need to use the linguistic criterium not political. For Russians to understand this idea: it's like saying that Russians in Kazakhstan speak Kazakian (or pick any other name you want) not Russian. Languages should be defined by linguists, not politicians. (by the way, there are many countries that speak the same language but the are still different states, it's silly to define statehood by inventing a language) AdrianTM 15:04, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
No matter if this is a linguistic or political issue, it still remains a problem. How can be otherwise, when Moldavian people don't know which language they speak? The majority of them are confused, not mentioning about children, who one day are told to learn Romanian and another day - Moldavian. Even if in fact they learn the same, the problem is still open as nobody knows what language exactly they speak. I think this situation has 2 points of view which need to be analyzed:
Although a Romanian-Moldavian dictionary was published years ago, in fact is one language, with the same roots. The situation is similar to American-UK-Austrian English. Although there are different slang and pronunciations, it still remains English. So it's absurd to have two names for one language.
Let's analyze from historical point of view: Moldova as a country appeared much earlier then Romania itself. Logical it means that Moldavian language appeared much early then Romanian; although at that time the problem of having an official language was not discussed.
The language used in the song is Romanian. Anybody who knows Romanian can attest that. I don't know what they mean by calling the official language "Moldovan", however this is Romanian. The song is tought in Romania too (and not as a foreign language song) AdrianTM 21:18, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
If Moldovans speak romanian and they are the same people as moldovans from Romania, how come that is not allowed to have the text: Moldovans ( Romanians) since Moldovans are Romanians? Can one give me a resonable proof that they are not identical? Iasi 06:24, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
e convinced of the difference, and support this oppinion.
I have mixed views on this subject. On one hand, it makes sense to directly use data from the RM census which lists Romanians and Moldovans as two separate ethnic groups. Nevertheless, from an analytical perspective, this differentiation is rather absurd as the Moldova on the Eastern side of the Prut that now constitutes the Republic of Moldova was only separated from the main Principality of Moldova in 1812. To state that ethnic changes occured in that region in 150 years (excluding the time that Bessarabia and Romania were reunified) is absolutely illogical. Having a separate category for Moldovans and Romanians who are somethimes actually part of the same family appears ridiculous. For this reason numerous influential international organizations and sources use the term Romanian or MOldovan (Romanian) when referring to the ethnicity. One solution might be to proceed like the Austrians who when declaring their main ethnos write German Speaker as opposed to German or Austrian. A similar design could be applied to our specific case and call the people Romanian-speakers. Nevertheless, this category does not appear in any official Moldovan documents and I have some reservations about implementing it in Wikipedia first. TSO1D 20:19, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't believe that this article is the correct venue for for a long commentary on whether Romanian identity of the Moldovans. I wouldn't like to re-arrange the official results either as they have been collected that way by the government. However perhaps in order to reflect the realities of the situation it might be better as a compromise to combine the Moldovan and Romanian data into a Romanian-speaking category and below that have two indented sub-categories that will reflect how people actually declared themsleves. Something like this:
According to the 2004 Moldovan Census:
TSO1D 02:45, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
So, after reading all this conclusion may be only one: Moldovans are Romanians.-- Iasi 06:39, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Indeed the problem is very complex. Even if in the Population Census it is written moldovans and romanians it is also very important to mention that every moldovan does not see a difference from being romanian called moldovan. What? A moldovan from Romania does not consider himself a romanian? Of course yes, and using the same logic any moldovan which call himself a moldovan accept the fact that he belongs to the romanianism. Iasi 06:53, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
I am totally with Mikka on this and I am surprized that after similar debates elsewhere in Ukrainian topics we have to discuss this with same users. Census data is not for Wikipedians to process, add or subtract. Present it as is and add a footnote, if necessary. At the footnoe give referenced criticism of the census from the observers (if there is any) not a general voiceful speech. That's how to deal with this issue rather than give a Wikipedian produced number in a table. Someone will add up Ukrainians and Russians as "Slavs" in Transnistria article and will claim that Moldavians are a minority rather than plurality. This is all absurd. Don't tamper with census data and provide a referenced criticism at talk. -- Irpen 08:08, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Okay thanks. But like I told you on your talk page now the present text is missleading. --
Iasi
08:29, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Not entirely true. When they don't consider that means the followings:
1. They are not moldovans, because they belong to other minority e.g. russian-speakers, ukr.-speakers, ...
2. They say primarly moldovans but they meant Romanians because any link related to Moldova must relate to Romania also. It's a very strong connection between them, a inner connection.
3. What are moldovans from Romania if not romanians? E.g. Moldovans from Iaşi? Iasi 08:37, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
So...it's very correct to have something like this: Moldovans( Romanians). Iasi 08:48, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
As long as the census data says Moldovans, the issue of who considers themsleves how is a side one for the purpose of the infobox. As I say, if the census numbers are suspicious and there are serious sources that say so, not a Wikipedian's opinion or a natinalist article in a tabloid, fine. Use the ref to explain what's wrong with the census. In no way this justifies Bonaparte to substitute the official and sourced statistics by his own math. This is not a grade-2 math class to excersise adding numbers. -- Irpen 09:19, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
What Census says is POV, Moldovan Goverment POV in this case. Census doesn't says that Moldovans are not Romanians. What is more important? To have a missleading text or to have a better one? Why are you so against in having an explanatory text? I see no problem in fact that Moldovans are Romanians.
Do you think that is an indentity crisis about here? That Moldovans are not Romanians? Since they do speak the same language, have the same history that means are the same people.
One last question: a moldovan from Iaşi who is a moldovan is or is not a romanian? Iasi 09:58, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Bogdan, whatever such allegations are there, they belong to the text of the article in a balanced and unbiased form (if at all). Please no one sided cherry-picked quotes. If there are differences of opinions, both sides should be represented. And, in no way this affects how we present the census results, that is we present them as they are and comment on them separately. Wikipedians doing their own math with the numbers is unacceptable. -- Irpen 23:28, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
So much fun to read all this. "Don't cry wolf, Zserghei"...It seems that he's an active supporter of those bluddy Soviets. They censored my text...bluddy Soviets :(
Ambassador Pamela Hyde Smith's Declaration on Independence Day 2003 :
You need more? I'll find you several hudred refs. `' mikka (t) 01:46, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
`' mikka (t) 02:03, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Since Moldovans are Romanians what kind of difference do you expect? Iasi 05:48, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't even get the fact that this debate continues. What is it that you don't understand in the sentence "Moldova does not call itself multicultural, ergo we should not call it that". The only thing that could be "proven" so far is that somebody else calls it that, and the sources cited fall into contradiction with what Zserghei was advocating when he got the sentence in there. People who promote this sentence have been editing this article for what is now a year (I think). At no time up to now was the question of "multiculturality" ever raised, to my knowledge. People who advocate getting the sentence in there have erased other's edits, have been combating others' POV, etc etc. And yet, no concept of "Moldova's multiculturality" ever stemmed from their keyboards. Please, help me get it right: did Moldova radically change her laws yesterday? Did any of you lead a coup in Chişinău? Are there now two or three states named "Moldova", and I'm on the page for the wrong one? Add to these that my original comments got no reply other than "I never claimed that". It took two or three edits for someone to get the false and biased sentence back in there, without taking into consideration what I and others have said against it. What am I to understand? You are not responsible for your actions? Dahn 09:15, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
So, instead of answering my plain and simple three questions you want to engage into political attacks onto a "little group" of stupid racists. Godd day to you all. <Plonk>. `' mikka (t) 20:00, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
A very good conclusion: some people here try to make Moldova seem as unrelated to Romania as possible. Iasi 06:21, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
I suggest to make a POOL. Let's see who is the winner here. I can bet that Romanians. Romanians are more united and have better interests than this bunch of idiots. Iasi 06:21, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
To both Zserghei and Dpotop: oppinions and votes have clear limitations when it comes to logic, and you may know this applies for your own POVs. These are:
The word "multicultural" means nothing if not properly defined. As it is used today by politicians and ambassadors, it's just a slogan saying "you're good guys, not bad ones". As for Moldova, saying that it does encourage ethnic minorities does not mean that it is different from, say, Romania, or France. Both of which are not defining themselves as multicultural. Dpotop 07:43, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Why do you cite all the time Adrianople? I sincerely don't have a clue. :) Dpotop 16:13, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
The sample below taken from the Constitutions of Moldova and Romania demonstrates that a formal text in Romanian and Moldovan is identical.
Moldova File:FlagOfMoldova.png | Romania
![]() |
English
![]() |
---|---|---|
TITLUL I: Principii Generale | TITLUL I: Principii Generale | FIRST TITLE: General Principles |
Articolul 1
Statul Republica Moldova |
Articolul 1
Statul român |
Article 1 (Romanian/Republic of Moldova State) |
(1) Republica Moldova este un stat suveran şi independent, unitar şi indivizibil. | (1) România este stat naţional, suveran şi independent, unitar şi indivizibil. | (1) Romania/Republic of Moldova is a national, independent, united, and indivisible state. |
(2) Forma de guvernămînt a statului este republica. | (2) Forma de guvernământ a statului român este republica. | (2) The form of government of the state is republican. |
(3) Republica Moldova este un stat de drept, democratic, în care demnitatea omului, drepturile şi libertăţile ... | (3) România este stat de drept, democratic şi social, în care demnitatea omului, drepturile şi libertăţile ... | Romania/Republic of Moldova is a state of law, democratic and social, in which the human dignity, rights and liberties... |
[1] | [2] | Links to the official page of Constitution for both countries |
This law still aplies: [3]
Law regarding the usage of languages spoken on the territory of the Republic of Moldova): "Moldavian RSS supports the desire of the Moldovans that live across the borders of the Republic, and considering the really existing linguistical Moldo-Romanian identity - of the Romanians that live on the territory of the USSR, of doing their studies and satisfying their cultural needs in their maternal language." [4]
and so on...
In the 2004 census out of the 3,383,332 population of Moldova, 16.5% (558,508) chose Romanian as their mother tongue, whereas 60% chose Moldovan. But this procent varies from the cities to the country side. In the cities, 40% of the Romanian/Moldovan speakers chose Romanian as their mother tongue, whereas in the country side each 7th Romanian/Moldovan speaker chose Romanian as his mother tongue; that is even though only 2% of the population of Moldova declared itself of Romanian ethnicity.
It is also important to note, that the group of international observers from the Council of Europe, that supervised the census, underlined that 7 of the 10 observer teams noted an important number of cases when peope were advised to declare themselves Moldovans or Moldovan speakers (more info here).
For detalied information about the relation Moldovan-Romanian in the 2004 census see the table at ro:Limba_moldovenească#Distribuţie_geografică or the National Bureau of Statistics of Moldova.
-- Danutz
I think that in this case Wiki rules on official data "have to be used with care" as argued by the international observers to the census. In fact the sentence "have to be used with care" is taken verbatum from what those observers said. They ment it exclusively in cases like these when we try to provide a reader with info on Moldova. The CIA world factbook seems to have taken the advice. Why can't we?
A number of users have engaged in a very unproductive revert war. Please, if you have some disagreements please post them here first and we shall try to adress them one by one. Constantzeanu 00:46, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
I moved the word Romanian from the top of the infobox to the footnotes and added the sentence Moldavian is commonly considered as another name for ( Romanian). Official language is, as per Wikipedia's definition and guidelines, the language noted as such in a country's constitution. I also removed the comparison between Romanian and Moldavian, as this is a direct copy from the text in Moldavian language. We have discussed over this issue several times and seem to be getting nowhere at all. I have no time to leave this note as User:Alexander 007 (currently blocked?) has already reverted them-- Asterion 15:06, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
In your last edits on the Moldova article, you have marked the changes as a minor edit. This is not right. A minor edit generally implies trivial changes only, such as typo corrections, formatting and presentational changes and rearranging of text without changing any content. Therefore, any change that affects the meaning of an article is not minor, even if it involves one word. The distinction between major and minor edits is significant because you may decide to ignore minor edits when viewing recent changes; logged-in users can even set their preferences to not display them. No one wants to be fooled into ignoring a significant change to an article simply because it was marked "minor." So remember to consider the opinions of other editors when choosing this option. -- Asterion 14:31, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Also, watch
your language. Please avoid using abusive
edit summaries as per
Wikipedia:Civility and
Wikipedia:No personal attacks. Thanks and happy editing. --
Asterion
14:35, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
PS: Leaving comments here as user's talk page seems to be blocked or protected. -- Asterion 15:00, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Asterion, I urge you to reconsider reverting the page and criticizing the other users, especially Alexander. The problem is that the language issue has been discussed numerous times and finally we seemed to have reached a consensus on leaving Romanian in parantheses but not going any further. You can see the more recent round of the discussion at the top of the page. The issue is very controversial, and we have spent a great amount of time trying to find the best solution. Alexander did not even support the inclusion of Romanian in parantheses in the beginning, but he fights for it now because that is the conclusion we reached. Do not become angry with him if he is a bit frustrated, but the issue absorbed much effort from numerous users and now you appear suddenly and revert the page without even reading the long discussion above. TSO1D 15:41, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
I will refrain from making further edits on this. However I must point out it goes against Wikipedia's own guidelines and definition of Official language. Regarding my criticism of Alexander 007, I simply pointed out he should not use offensive language. The outstanding point, for which I am still awaiting a reply, is the duplication of the Language comparison table on this article. This is completely redundant as it has been taken directly from the Moldovan language page, word by word indeed! -- Asterion 19:15, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Asterion, I am not a big supporter of the table, however just for your information it was not copied here from the Moldovan langauge page, but vice versa. The table existed on the Moldova page for a long period, then it was removed, then it reappeared, and finally it was moved to Moldovan language. TSO1D 20:51, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Someone just made a revert breaking any kind of dialog here. His user name is User:Mikkalai. -- 200.43.108.10 20:11, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't think one can be so rude not to see the whole debate above and to step like that into an edit war. -- Moldo 20:17, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
I also think that his edits bring no good to the whole article. -- Moldo 20:18, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Regarding your nationalism definition I must stress some things first:
-- Moldo 20:24, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
I had been answering to Dpotop who was claiming that Romania has been using the French model of "citizenship=ethnicity" (when he himself has proven that he does not believe this to be the case). Bottom line: official ideology has been, is, and will be ethno-nationalist (while misusing the "nation-state" label). This was not about how discrimination is "improving" (whatever that may mean), it was foremost about how Romania (unlike the textbook France or the textbook Netherlands), will always see "inner communities" beyond citizenship. The very fact that we are talking about "Gypsies" shows that Romanian nationalism is not as inclusive as Dpotop has claimed it is. Please, read my points again. Dahn 20:32, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
-- Moldo 20:37, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Remember now that all these concepts must be balanced one more time in European Union. Should it be a Europe of nations? Or should it be a Federal Europe? Imagine yourself EU in 10 years. More likely Moldova will get the status of Associated Country and who knows maybe even Member State of EU. How will be by then? -- Moldo 20:41, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Will that be a debate over having two romanian states in EU? These days have been a lot of solutions proposed, even from Russian politologs, that suggest for example a reunion of Moldova with Romania. -- Moldo 20:43, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
In www.ziua.ro have been presented a strong plan for solving any dispute wheather are romanians/moldovans or not.-- Moldo 20:44, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
GDP of Moldova is not the one expressed by the Gov. of Moldova. -- Bombonel 08:02, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
GDP is around 11 Billions $ and about 3000$ per capita. -- Bombonel 10:44, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Can one please explain me more in details what is this all about? A user named User:Khoikhoi just reverted a reasonable text bringing this argument. Is it really so? Are the readers well prepared to make the difference/decide whether Moldovans and Romanians are the same people or not? -- Hassion 17:56, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
In the demographics table I changed the heading "Moldovan and Romanian" to Daco-Romanian as the latter is a term that encompasses the two categories. It makes sense to use this term instead of simply repeating the subcategories, and I don't think there's any contrvoversy that Moldovans are Daco-Romanian. (Even Stati agrees). TSO1D 20:18, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Romanians from Moldova want to unite with Romania for 2 reasons:
As an EU member Romania attracts young people from Moldova to work for better wages. Now, the difference between Romania and Moldova are as high as 5 times. In Romania wages are around 500 € while in Moldova only 100 €.
A Moldovan identity doesn't exist. There is now a stronger unification movement that supports a future re-union. All political parties are becoming EU-Romania friendly
In external links perhaps there should be the link to the Moldovan Embassy in U.S. http://embassyrm.org/ That is the official website where U.S. citizens would get some information about Moldova and mainly, the application for a visa to Moldova.
NOTE:
When searching for "Moldova Embassy" on Google, the first result that appears is http://www.moldovaembassy.org/ which is not the embassy's address, but instead is a gateway to Consular Assistance, Inc. (www.consularassistance.com) a company based in Virginia. The WHOIS records clearly shows that both www.moldovaembassy.org is registered by the founder of Consular Assistance -- Radu Bujoreanu, also the former Consul of the Embassy of the Republic of Moldova in Washington, DC. according to the http://www.consularassistance.com/who.html
The business model of Consular Assistance consists basically in re-mailing the applications for Moldovan visas to the actual Moldovan Embassy for a $60 surcharge (normal visa fee is $40, they charge $100). This business model is probably not illegal, but is certainly deceptive. The deception is twofold:
1. Even though they claim to be "... gateway to Moldovan Embassies" they do not provide a link to the actual embassy page, that shows the intent to prevent individuals from finding the actual embassy visa application page in hopes that they would use their re-mailing service.
2. The web page and the url moldovaembassy.org shows an attempt to disguise themselves as the Embassy of Moldova in U.S.
Given those reasons, it seems that there should be a link to the official website of the Embassy of Moldova in U.S.
Also perhaps add the address of the U.S. Embassy in Moldova - http://moldova.usembassy.gov/
-- Ccabal 06:19, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Irpen, I noticed that you removed the Daco-Romanian super-category in the Moldova article. A few weeks ago the header read Romanian/Moldovan, and I replaced it with Daco-Romanian because that is what the definition of the latter word is. Nobody is trying to mislead the readers that the census had that category, however in my view it is logical to leave the two categories apart as the census was conducted this way, but to show their aggregate due to the close de facto relation between the two groups. As some members of various families declared themselves Moldovan, whereas others declared themselves as Romanian the difference between the categories is blurry, and simply presented their sum in addition to preserving the category used in the census makes sense. Once again, I did not introduce the super-category, just the name, and for about a month that seemed to work, even Mikka did not display any opposition to the design. I do not wish to enter into a revert war, and I would hate to see one between you and Contanteanu on this subject, I simply urge you to reanalyze the situation. TSO1D 20:28, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
TSO1D, I agree with everything in your verbal explanation. I disagree, however, that adding a supercat doesn't alter the data as this changes the presentation of the census. Census does not describe affiliation between the groups. No one adds Ukrainians and Russians to a supercat "East Slavs", while their both's belonging to an East Slavic group is not contested. Here is the census data in an unaltered from: [6]
When we say in the article that these are the census results, we should present them as such. If you think you then need to explain the grouping of census subgroups, by all means do that right after the census. Please give a thought to what would you say to someone adding the numbers and explaining that Ukrainians, Russians and Bulgarians are Slavs and the Slavic population of Moldova consistutes about 16%. But that's a separate issue. All I want for now is to have the census data processed outside of the census table. Elaboration even immediately below is fine by me. -- Irpen 01:59, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
I see that a new template has been substituted for the old "country infobox" template. The new design apparently causes some problems. I don't believe, however, that the new template will stay for long, so I urge you not to make radical changes yet. I just moved the portal down for now as that added an unnecessary new column under the new design. TSO1D 02:54, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
All the adjective entries such Moldavian, Moldavan, Moldovian etc. should be replace with Moldovan.
Moldavia was the russified version of Moldova, name imposed by the Soviet Union during the occupation. The adjective version became Moldavian, so the Soviets were talking about "Moldavian" wine, "Moldavian" land etc.
Today the official name of the country is "Republic of Moldova" or "Republica Moldova" in Romanian. The adjective version is thefore Moldovan. So instead of "Moldavian wine" it should be "Moldovan wine". "Moldavan culture" should be "Moldovan culture" etc.
NOTE: Today most Russians who live in Moldova would still insist on saying "Maldavia". Therefore just like in the case of Romanian vs. Moldovan language or nationality, this is a point of contention, and could start editing wars. Nevertheless the offical version should be present in the encyclopedia entry.
-- Ccabal 09:24, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Actually, it's not the Soviets that coined "Moldavia". If French, at least, "Moldavie" was used in the 19th century. And Cantemir uses "Descriptio Moldaviae", not "Descriptio Moldovae". It may be some degree of Russian/Slavic influence, but then 10% of Romanian is, too. Dpotop 19:15, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
The usage of the terms Romanian and Moldovan are directly interchangable, even in official use by the Moldovan government. Nevertheless, in this article it makes sense to choose the more suitable nuance of the word in various instances for historical or political reasons. In the case of the poem Limba Noastra, it was written in Romanian, before the development of a theoretical Moldovan language by Soviet linguists. Therefore in this case it is much more logical to use the term Romanian language. TSO1D 22:28, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for granting full points to Romania. We did the same to you. Soon, we will reunite, and then there will be no need for exchange of points. -- Candide, or Optimism 13:58, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
It says on the top of the page: '"Moldova" redirects here. For other uses, see Moldova (disambiguation).'
'Moldova' does not redirect here at all, that's the disambiguation page.
218.228.195.44 15:50, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Let me point out something: whoever created the article Moldova (Romanian region) is a con artist. Moldavia covers both the principality and the informal region of today. Whoever is denying that to underline the supposed legitimacy of his claims to the Republic of Moldova is in fact, without being aware of it, weakening the notion that Moldavia/Moldova united with Wallachia as a legitimate state, through a legitimate act (and chose to become "the region of Moldova"). Can that person see my point, or is he the challenged in ways I would tend to think he is? Dahn 17:04, 28 May 2006 (UTC)