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We're not sure what to make of this, and could use some eyes on it. Anna Frodesiak ( talk) 10:48, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
I participated in highly fraught and now-archived discussions on this talk page, and in dropping by to add a minor link, I just wanted to comment that I quite like the current introduction. It strikes me as now neutral and well-balanced, and anticipates the questions that readers may bring to the article. (I believe there were some issues in the past of wanting to impose "scholarly correctness" in a way that simply excluded historically important scholarly views that are perhaps not now in the majority, but that readers might come here thinking about.) I haven't read the rest of the article, but well done in introducing the subject. Cynwolfe ( talk) 17:25, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
This article is thoroughly illustrated, but for the benefit of those who are interested, here's an image I just found on Commons. It hadn't been categorized as pertaining to Mithraism (as the category is called on Commons), so I thought I'd point it out. Especially since they give an Augustan date for it, which is bound to, er, cause some controversy among those who think Mithras coming into Rome with Pompey's Cilician "pirates" is hooey. Cynwolfe ( talk) 18:22, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
I guess this wording has been here a while, but I'm just noticing the absurdity of Romans also called the religion Mysteries of Mithras or Mysteries of the Persians. Romans of course did not speak English, and it raises the question of what Latin word is supposed to represent "mysteries." Cynwolfe ( talk) 14:10, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
In adding some content to Great Ludovisi sarcophagus, I found more than one source saying that a Mithraist might be marked with an X (they call it a cross) on the forehead. I didn't find anything about that in the article here, so I just thought I'd mention it in case anyone found it interesting and wanted to keep an eye out in the sources. Cynwolfe ( talk) 14:53, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
I keep dropping notes here in lieu of editing the article, but it's in such a state of advanced development I feel that any content needs to be added with care. So someday when I have time I'll try to take a more integrative approach. For now, I found this to be a clear and useful statement:
"A few years ago it became briefly fashionable to argue that the Roman cult was created in Italy (Vermaseren 1981; Merkelbach 1984; Clauss 2000). The early archaeological finds do not support this claim; neither do they point to an origin in Anatolia. However, the fact that key terms of Mithraic language are Greek and were translated into Latin implies an origin somewhere in the eastern Mediterranean."<ref>Richard Gordon, "Institutionalized Religious Options: Mithraism," in ''A Companion to Roman Religion'' (Blackwell, 2007), p. 397.</ref>
I think we imply this in the section on the archaeological evidence, but in that section we may get a little bogged down in overly technical details that could be placed in the footnotes, instead of offering this kind of overview for the general reader. Cynwolfe ( talk) 19:03, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
This article needs attention from someone who knows what he is talking about. At the moment it's a terrible article. I don't know the tag for expert, so I've stuck the pov tag on it (because it has that problem too!). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.26.89.13 ( talk) 20:02, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
While not being an expert in Roman history, it's still clear that "the bull" stands for the Canaanite Baal god. Therefore anybody should know what Mithras slaying the bull means, since you all know what the Romans did in Jerusalem. However, the Romans weren't the only ones slaughtering Caananitans, the Persians and the Egyptians started with it. -- 178.197.227.178 ( talk) 20:41, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
A couple of sentences were recently added to the Mithraism and Christianity section, about the relation of C.G.Jung's school of depth psychology to Mithraic and other classical mysteries, and to theories of difference between races. The source given was an online text by Richard Noll.
Jungian interpretation of religion is a big topic — a large number of books and articles have been published about it. Richard Noll is one notable writer about Jung, but a controversial one. If Noll's views are to be presented, I'd suggest Noll's name should be mentioned inline, and other sources consulted.
In any case, is this Mithraic Mysteries page — which up till now has focussed on Roman history — the appropriate place to engage in controversies about Jung? Kalidasa 777 ( talk) 08:27, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: No consensus to move. As PatGallacher points out, there isn't even a definite proposal on the table here, so maybe take this one step at a time, and at least come back with a proposal that people can decide upon. ( non-admin closure) — Amakuru ( talk) 23:11, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
Mithras (name) → ? –
I understand that modern scholarship now separates this religion from the religion in Persia, but Mithras the figure is simply the Greek and Roman form of the other god's name. There is already a treatment of the Manichaean figure of Mitra on the Persian god's page and there's no reason his Roman form should be handled differently, unless we really have so much material that a split becomes necessary. At that point, there should still be a section on the Persian god's page linking to a content fork at Mithras (not Mithras (name)).
Mithras (name) I don't know what to do with. The useful bits should be merged back here or to Mithra's #Etymology section. The name in and of itself is completely non-notable as a topic; for better or worse, it's simply the Greek and Roman form of Mithra. The further etymology of the name in Hittite, Sanskrit, and reconstructed Proto-Indo-European has absolutely no relation to the Greco-Roman name Mithras, which was just picked it up from the Persians; it belongs on the Persian god's page and nowhere else. --Relisted. Sunrise ( talk) 06:03, 26 February 2015 (UTC) — LlywelynII 15:23, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
There are similarities to the Thracian/ Dacian mystery cults, as well as the Samothracian cult of the Great Gods. Here are some points:
Thracian Horseman for comparison Alternatively, Mithras could be identified with either Orpheus, Rhesus, Strymon, or Zalmoxis, who brings sacrifice to the gods.
Of course, it all sounds rather far-fetched, but it's still something to think about. 92.114.148.141 ( talk) 20:08, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
The section on Classical sources doesn't fit well where it is now, in the section (currently 4.3) on the history of Mithraism. I propose it be put into its own section. Thoughts? - Eponymous-Archon ( talk) 22:52, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
the reality is that the roman cult of mithras correlates perfectly with the movement of sarmatian tribes (most notably the alans) into europe. perfect timing. perfect geography. there's consequently truly no mystery to it's origins, there's just a comical missing of the obvious: this iranian religion was brought into europe by iranian migrants, much as the "gypsy" religions moved in centuries later. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.48.181.80 ( talk) 04:15, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
There are Quit a Lot Similarities between the Hindu God Narasimha and the Lion Headed figure as both have lion head and a human torso. Mithra is said to be born from rock and Narasimha is also born from rock. Also Mithra is Another name for Hindu sun god Named Surya
/info/en/?search=Surya ॐ मित्राय नमः Om mitrāya namah
/info/en/?search=Narasimha 117.207.154.151 ( talk) 17:14, 5 March 2016 (UTC) /info/en/?search=File:Lord_Narasimha_statue_on_walls_of_Simhachalam_Temple.jpg
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.207.154.151 ( talk) 17:05, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
I've left a note about reliable sourcing on their talk page, because that was reason enough to revert. Going over them individually:
Given that the addition starts off with "you can't trust Christian apologists," I find it ironic (if not hypocritical) that it follows with two blatant apologists. This article should stick to historians, not apologists of any sort. Ian.thomson ( talk) 08:49, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Move. We appear to have a strong consensus that Mithraism is the more common name. After completing the move I'll also take a stab at the intro to clear up some of the confusion below; editors knowledgeable in the subject should also take a crack at it. Cúchullain t/ c 18:23, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
Mithraic mysteries → Mithraism – The article is descriptive of a set of organized religious beliefs popular within the Roman Empire and to an extent practised today. My problem is that the title does not reflect this. While the article does comment on the inadequacies of our knowledge of it's practices, it is not the primary subject of the article. I might also point out that another article exists on Wikipedia entitled 'Mithraism and Christianity'. If one article refers to it by it's proper name and the main article does not this can easily lead to confusion. If people want to do a write up on the gaps in our knowledge of Mithraism then a second page must be made, because that is not the subject of the article. This article was called Mithraism initially and through looking at the archives the only reason for a change to 'Mithraic Mysteries' is due to a popular book called 'Mithraic Mysteries. This makes no sense. BrookDaCow ( talk) 23:00, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
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![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 |
We're not sure what to make of this, and could use some eyes on it. Anna Frodesiak ( talk) 10:48, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
I participated in highly fraught and now-archived discussions on this talk page, and in dropping by to add a minor link, I just wanted to comment that I quite like the current introduction. It strikes me as now neutral and well-balanced, and anticipates the questions that readers may bring to the article. (I believe there were some issues in the past of wanting to impose "scholarly correctness" in a way that simply excluded historically important scholarly views that are perhaps not now in the majority, but that readers might come here thinking about.) I haven't read the rest of the article, but well done in introducing the subject. Cynwolfe ( talk) 17:25, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
This article is thoroughly illustrated, but for the benefit of those who are interested, here's an image I just found on Commons. It hadn't been categorized as pertaining to Mithraism (as the category is called on Commons), so I thought I'd point it out. Especially since they give an Augustan date for it, which is bound to, er, cause some controversy among those who think Mithras coming into Rome with Pompey's Cilician "pirates" is hooey. Cynwolfe ( talk) 18:22, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
I guess this wording has been here a while, but I'm just noticing the absurdity of Romans also called the religion Mysteries of Mithras or Mysteries of the Persians. Romans of course did not speak English, and it raises the question of what Latin word is supposed to represent "mysteries." Cynwolfe ( talk) 14:10, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
In adding some content to Great Ludovisi sarcophagus, I found more than one source saying that a Mithraist might be marked with an X (they call it a cross) on the forehead. I didn't find anything about that in the article here, so I just thought I'd mention it in case anyone found it interesting and wanted to keep an eye out in the sources. Cynwolfe ( talk) 14:53, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
I keep dropping notes here in lieu of editing the article, but it's in such a state of advanced development I feel that any content needs to be added with care. So someday when I have time I'll try to take a more integrative approach. For now, I found this to be a clear and useful statement:
"A few years ago it became briefly fashionable to argue that the Roman cult was created in Italy (Vermaseren 1981; Merkelbach 1984; Clauss 2000). The early archaeological finds do not support this claim; neither do they point to an origin in Anatolia. However, the fact that key terms of Mithraic language are Greek and were translated into Latin implies an origin somewhere in the eastern Mediterranean."<ref>Richard Gordon, "Institutionalized Religious Options: Mithraism," in ''A Companion to Roman Religion'' (Blackwell, 2007), p. 397.</ref>
I think we imply this in the section on the archaeological evidence, but in that section we may get a little bogged down in overly technical details that could be placed in the footnotes, instead of offering this kind of overview for the general reader. Cynwolfe ( talk) 19:03, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
This article needs attention from someone who knows what he is talking about. At the moment it's a terrible article. I don't know the tag for expert, so I've stuck the pov tag on it (because it has that problem too!). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.26.89.13 ( talk) 20:02, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
While not being an expert in Roman history, it's still clear that "the bull" stands for the Canaanite Baal god. Therefore anybody should know what Mithras slaying the bull means, since you all know what the Romans did in Jerusalem. However, the Romans weren't the only ones slaughtering Caananitans, the Persians and the Egyptians started with it. -- 178.197.227.178 ( talk) 20:41, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
A couple of sentences were recently added to the Mithraism and Christianity section, about the relation of C.G.Jung's school of depth psychology to Mithraic and other classical mysteries, and to theories of difference between races. The source given was an online text by Richard Noll.
Jungian interpretation of religion is a big topic — a large number of books and articles have been published about it. Richard Noll is one notable writer about Jung, but a controversial one. If Noll's views are to be presented, I'd suggest Noll's name should be mentioned inline, and other sources consulted.
In any case, is this Mithraic Mysteries page — which up till now has focussed on Roman history — the appropriate place to engage in controversies about Jung? Kalidasa 777 ( talk) 08:27, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: No consensus to move. As PatGallacher points out, there isn't even a definite proposal on the table here, so maybe take this one step at a time, and at least come back with a proposal that people can decide upon. ( non-admin closure) — Amakuru ( talk) 23:11, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
Mithras (name) → ? –
I understand that modern scholarship now separates this religion from the religion in Persia, but Mithras the figure is simply the Greek and Roman form of the other god's name. There is already a treatment of the Manichaean figure of Mitra on the Persian god's page and there's no reason his Roman form should be handled differently, unless we really have so much material that a split becomes necessary. At that point, there should still be a section on the Persian god's page linking to a content fork at Mithras (not Mithras (name)).
Mithras (name) I don't know what to do with. The useful bits should be merged back here or to Mithra's #Etymology section. The name in and of itself is completely non-notable as a topic; for better or worse, it's simply the Greek and Roman form of Mithra. The further etymology of the name in Hittite, Sanskrit, and reconstructed Proto-Indo-European has absolutely no relation to the Greco-Roman name Mithras, which was just picked it up from the Persians; it belongs on the Persian god's page and nowhere else. --Relisted. Sunrise ( talk) 06:03, 26 February 2015 (UTC) — LlywelynII 15:23, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
There are similarities to the Thracian/ Dacian mystery cults, as well as the Samothracian cult of the Great Gods. Here are some points:
Thracian Horseman for comparison Alternatively, Mithras could be identified with either Orpheus, Rhesus, Strymon, or Zalmoxis, who brings sacrifice to the gods.
Of course, it all sounds rather far-fetched, but it's still something to think about. 92.114.148.141 ( talk) 20:08, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
The section on Classical sources doesn't fit well where it is now, in the section (currently 4.3) on the history of Mithraism. I propose it be put into its own section. Thoughts? - Eponymous-Archon ( talk) 22:52, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
the reality is that the roman cult of mithras correlates perfectly with the movement of sarmatian tribes (most notably the alans) into europe. perfect timing. perfect geography. there's consequently truly no mystery to it's origins, there's just a comical missing of the obvious: this iranian religion was brought into europe by iranian migrants, much as the "gypsy" religions moved in centuries later. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.48.181.80 ( talk) 04:15, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
There are Quit a Lot Similarities between the Hindu God Narasimha and the Lion Headed figure as both have lion head and a human torso. Mithra is said to be born from rock and Narasimha is also born from rock. Also Mithra is Another name for Hindu sun god Named Surya
/info/en/?search=Surya ॐ मित्राय नमः Om mitrāya namah
/info/en/?search=Narasimha 117.207.154.151 ( talk) 17:14, 5 March 2016 (UTC) /info/en/?search=File:Lord_Narasimha_statue_on_walls_of_Simhachalam_Temple.jpg
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.207.154.151 ( talk) 17:05, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
I've left a note about reliable sourcing on their talk page, because that was reason enough to revert. Going over them individually:
Given that the addition starts off with "you can't trust Christian apologists," I find it ironic (if not hypocritical) that it follows with two blatant apologists. This article should stick to historians, not apologists of any sort. Ian.thomson ( talk) 08:49, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Move. We appear to have a strong consensus that Mithraism is the more common name. After completing the move I'll also take a stab at the intro to clear up some of the confusion below; editors knowledgeable in the subject should also take a crack at it. Cúchullain t/ c 18:23, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
Mithraic mysteries → Mithraism – The article is descriptive of a set of organized religious beliefs popular within the Roman Empire and to an extent practised today. My problem is that the title does not reflect this. While the article does comment on the inadequacies of our knowledge of it's practices, it is not the primary subject of the article. I might also point out that another article exists on Wikipedia entitled 'Mithraism and Christianity'. If one article refers to it by it's proper name and the main article does not this can easily lead to confusion. If people want to do a write up on the gaps in our knowledge of Mithraism then a second page must be made, because that is not the subject of the article. This article was called Mithraism initially and through looking at the archives the only reason for a change to 'Mithraic Mysteries' is due to a popular book called 'Mithraic Mysteries. This makes no sense. BrookDaCow ( talk) 23:00, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 20:09, 21 January 2018 (UTC)