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For the love of God would someone break up that huge paragraph? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.171.253.146 ( talk) 01:14, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
I know that many people dont like "criticism of" articles, but rap/hip hop culture and music has received an extraordinary amount of criticism for its misogyny, celebration of violence and criminality, etc. I would suggest this article be renamed "Criticism of hip hop culture and music", but only if and when someone (not me right now) can take the time to improve it. this article should be high enough quality that it could be linked to from every article on a rap artist who has received such criticisms. Mercurywoodrose ( talk) 16:38, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
well founded criticism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.191.5.129 ( talk) 06:44, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
I enjoyed reading the article and can see the potential for a good piece. There may be room for a "Criticism of..." article, but this article's current thrust doesn't really embrace a wide-ranging criticism of hip-hop; it focuses on misogyny. As a Feminism-related article, that should be sufficient for it to stand on its own without needing to be broadened into a general critique, IMO. The suggestion to "rename" the article wouldn't be appropriate without broadening its scope too, and I don't think that is really necessary within this context. Misogyny in such a popular art form is a worthy topic of a separate article, so I propose we keep it and keep working on it. A critique of... section could be added to the Hip Hop culture main article . JoGusto ( talk) 09:10, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
Lol @ this article having quotes, ruminations and explanations from everybody EXCEPT hip hop artists. I especially enjoy how it subtly suggests that its da white maans fault. It reads like a first year liberal arts students opinion piece. "Criticism of hip hop culture and music" would be a more accurate (if still somewhat disingenuous) description of its content. Thunderlippps ( talk) 05:09, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
"Hip hop culture" refers to so much more than what this article can cover. The term Hip hop encompasses graffiti, breaking, beatboxing etc. This article, however, focuses on misogyny in rap lyrics, rap music, and rap videos. Almost all sources in the article use "rap music" instead of "hip-hop culture". Therefore, I would like to rename the article to "Misogyny in rap music". -- Sonicyouth86 ( talk) 17:02, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
I'm sure Tyler the Creator is a good example of misogyny in rap, but the example given, a line from "bitch suck dick", isn't the best example I think. The song itself is described as a comedy/joke song made just for a few laughs by Tyler himself, and the actual line given isn't even written by him, it's written by Jasper. I'm not particularly familiar with editing wiki's or the etiquette of it, so i'll just leave this here, and if no one has an objection, or no one has changed it, i'll come back later and attempt to change it myself. Thanks.
I've added some additional information under the 'Response' section. Hopefully this will provide some balance to the article. - One.tenth ( talk) 01:06, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
This was reinserted with the edit summary "restore, how is it not directly relevant?". It's irrelevant because:
This is why I removed the addition before and will remove it again. This article was nominated for deletion twice because it used to be a big mess of WP:OR and WP:SYNTH dealing with "the breakdown of the poor black family" rather than "misogyny in hip hop culture". Please do not reinsert information that is not about misogyny in hip hop culture. -- Sonicyouth86 ( talk) 17:06, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
I read this article and found it to be over-the-top biased. The entire article is based one ONE point of view: the view that hip hop is generally misogynistic. There is no mention of rappers who have been accused of misogyny defending themselves, and the "Rationale" section is practically a psychological analysis of hip hop artists which generalizes them as young, poor, black, materialistic, good-for-nothing human beings which is ridiculous. "Misogyny is prevalent in hip hop culture" is a blatant example of non-neutrality, a morality claim, akin to saying "robbery is prevalent among African-American populations." Wikipedia is supposed to represent sides of an issue fairly which this article by no means does. The authors of this article also demonstrate poor knowledge of hip hop, as no context is provided for the Eminem and Tyler, the Creator songs—has it ever occurred to you that these songs could be interpreted to have a non-misogynistic meaning?
I also add that some of the information in the article is plain wrong. "Gangsta rap, the most commercially successful subgenre of hip hop" isn't by any means a fact, and neither is "Rap music is by far the most popular music genre for 8- to-18-year-olds."
In summary this article is extremely non-objective, displays a poor understanding of hip hop culture, and it backed up by weak claims. Please, separate fact and opinion.
Thoughts? Ideas to improve? This article needs a major revamping.
esotericeyes ( talk) 02:11, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
Esoteric eyes, the "Rationale" section gives several explanations for the presence of misogyny in hip hop music: Misogyny in rap music is a reflection of the environment and culture, record executives pressure artists to come up with increasingly violent and offensive lyrics, ethnographic studies link misogyny in rap music to the socialization and gender relations in certain inner-city communities. You will agree that this is quite different from your charge that the section describes rappers as "young, poor, black, materialistic, good-for-nothing human beings". In fact, the section was written in a way to suggest the exact opposite. Several quotes from academics who stress that misogyny is not a "male black thing" are included.
You will also notice that the article is based almost entirely on academic, highly reliable sources. Several studies and estimates of the prevalence of misogyny in hip hop music are cited. Your claim that citing these studies and their findings is a "morality claim" does not appear convincing to me.
If you have reliable sources which contradict the interpretations or sources used in the article, you're very welcome to include them. The sentence which you claim is "plain wrong" is sourced to an academic article which starts with the sentence "Gangsta rap music, the most popular selling subgenre of rap music, is predicated on an essentialized and limited contstuction of masculinity" (see opening paragraph).
I will remove your tag and advise you to read Wikipedia:NPOV dispute#Adding a tag to a page. -- Sonicyouth86 ( talk) 15:57, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
FM [ talk to me | show contributions ] 15:59, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
Overall I think this article brings up interesting points, however I think it could be cleaned up and made stronger in a few ways.
This entire article is very biased. It fails to mention firstly that the majority of hip hop artists are playing characters to describe the harsh reality of ghetto life and often describe situations in the first person that they themselves would consider immoral. Ice-T famously said of his song Cop Killer, "If you believe I'm a cop killer, you believe David Bowie's an astronaut". Many rappers known for misogynistic lyrics are real life pro-feminists, such as Jay-Z. Secondly, a lot of the "misogynistic" content of hip hop music and music videos is only considered such by some feminists. Whilst radical feminists would state that the display of sexuality in rap videos is part of patriachal objectification, other pro-sexual feminists would argue that they empower women and fight misogynistic ideas of women not enjoying sex as much as men. Thirdly, it is not just women who are hated and called untrustworthy in rap music. In hip hop, no one is to be trusted, and men are often described much worse than women. Now, I'm not saying that there is no misogyny in hip hop, but it is important for the article to reflect the other point of view, rather than this biased, one-sided essay that defies all Wikipedia non-bias guidelines. 220.244.162.100 ( talk) 06:01, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
![]() | This article was the subject of an educational assignment in Spring 2015. Further details were available on the "Education Program:SUNY-New Paltz/Gender and Sexuality in Hip Hop Culture (Spring 2015)" page, which is now unavailable on the wiki. |
women in hip hop
I think that this article speaks volumes. Misogyny is a very powerful act in the hip hop world. The disgrace that male hip hop artists bring to women, is very heartbreaking. They objectify us women as a source of power. They slander the women with their lyrics. They are used as a sex symbol as well. As for the article itself, I felt that it had a lot of information. I like how it mentioned Kanye West on the side about his role in his video. For Suggestions I would suggest adding more information on the background of hip hop. For example how hip hop was formed, when women started to be a focus of hip hop, etc. I also think the article should've included information about women who know which lyrics are about them in a song. I would like to see some more artists that use hip hop as a way to exploit women. Ladyrondo2 ( talk) 02:27, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
I agree that it is one-sided. The article takes for granted the feminist standpoint that all sexual portrayals of women victimize them. Better to stick to a neutral point of view and reference third party criticisms.
Krehel (
talk)
15:28, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
MBAILEY004 ( talk) 04:25, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
![]() | This article was the subject of an educational assignment in Spring 2015. Further details were available on the "Education Program:SUNY-New Paltz/Gender and Sexuality in Hip Hop Culture (Spring 2015)" page, which is now unavailable on the wiki. |
using the Eminem example was biased. the section of authenticity could have been explained more in depth. talk about how were these violent lyrics demanded (if they were) and why. the wider African american gender conflict viewpoint is very short. much needs to be added. the beginnings of hip hop as it relates to African-Americans should be spoken about and then connected to the gendered language and roles that have existed in hip hop.
hip hop culture extends into more than just music and rap, but the article just focused on music. being that it is a culture, misogyny and gender language in dancing, djing and other elements of hip hop should be mentioned. MBAILEY004 ( talk) 04:25, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
Statistics should be shown of the sales of both men and women who patronize Hip Hop artists with misogyny lyrics to get a better idea of the discrepancy or lack thereof, on finding out the primary contributors in business transactions of derogatory Hip Hop lyrics towards women. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sage Cadence ( talk • contribs) 10:05, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
In light of the discussion on this talk page about the need to significantly rework, or even delete, this article, I have been examining it more closely in the past few days. I have made, and will continue to make, small edits for clarity and overall cohesiveness. However, much more significant edits are needed to address some of my main concerns.
A few of these concerns are that:
here are some more detailed critiques of the first half of the article:
Title
Rational
Hunter.od ( talk) 03:58, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
Misogynistic themes
Prevalence
Overall Critique — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bustelo&mezcal ( talk • contribs) 03:23, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
I know I am not the first to say this, but the article seems to be about misogyny in rap music, not misogyny in hip hop culture. It should be renamed. ((( The Quixotic Potato))) ( talk) 06:27, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
I have moved the page, we need to follow the sources. ((( The Quixotic Potato))) ( talk) 03:06, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
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For the love of God would someone break up that huge paragraph? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.171.253.146 ( talk) 01:14, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
I know that many people dont like "criticism of" articles, but rap/hip hop culture and music has received an extraordinary amount of criticism for its misogyny, celebration of violence and criminality, etc. I would suggest this article be renamed "Criticism of hip hop culture and music", but only if and when someone (not me right now) can take the time to improve it. this article should be high enough quality that it could be linked to from every article on a rap artist who has received such criticisms. Mercurywoodrose ( talk) 16:38, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
well founded criticism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.191.5.129 ( talk) 06:44, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
I enjoyed reading the article and can see the potential for a good piece. There may be room for a "Criticism of..." article, but this article's current thrust doesn't really embrace a wide-ranging criticism of hip-hop; it focuses on misogyny. As a Feminism-related article, that should be sufficient for it to stand on its own without needing to be broadened into a general critique, IMO. The suggestion to "rename" the article wouldn't be appropriate without broadening its scope too, and I don't think that is really necessary within this context. Misogyny in such a popular art form is a worthy topic of a separate article, so I propose we keep it and keep working on it. A critique of... section could be added to the Hip Hop culture main article . JoGusto ( talk) 09:10, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
Lol @ this article having quotes, ruminations and explanations from everybody EXCEPT hip hop artists. I especially enjoy how it subtly suggests that its da white maans fault. It reads like a first year liberal arts students opinion piece. "Criticism of hip hop culture and music" would be a more accurate (if still somewhat disingenuous) description of its content. Thunderlippps ( talk) 05:09, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
"Hip hop culture" refers to so much more than what this article can cover. The term Hip hop encompasses graffiti, breaking, beatboxing etc. This article, however, focuses on misogyny in rap lyrics, rap music, and rap videos. Almost all sources in the article use "rap music" instead of "hip-hop culture". Therefore, I would like to rename the article to "Misogyny in rap music". -- Sonicyouth86 ( talk) 17:02, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
I'm sure Tyler the Creator is a good example of misogyny in rap, but the example given, a line from "bitch suck dick", isn't the best example I think. The song itself is described as a comedy/joke song made just for a few laughs by Tyler himself, and the actual line given isn't even written by him, it's written by Jasper. I'm not particularly familiar with editing wiki's or the etiquette of it, so i'll just leave this here, and if no one has an objection, or no one has changed it, i'll come back later and attempt to change it myself. Thanks.
I've added some additional information under the 'Response' section. Hopefully this will provide some balance to the article. - One.tenth ( talk) 01:06, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
This was reinserted with the edit summary "restore, how is it not directly relevant?". It's irrelevant because:
This is why I removed the addition before and will remove it again. This article was nominated for deletion twice because it used to be a big mess of WP:OR and WP:SYNTH dealing with "the breakdown of the poor black family" rather than "misogyny in hip hop culture". Please do not reinsert information that is not about misogyny in hip hop culture. -- Sonicyouth86 ( talk) 17:06, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
I read this article and found it to be over-the-top biased. The entire article is based one ONE point of view: the view that hip hop is generally misogynistic. There is no mention of rappers who have been accused of misogyny defending themselves, and the "Rationale" section is practically a psychological analysis of hip hop artists which generalizes them as young, poor, black, materialistic, good-for-nothing human beings which is ridiculous. "Misogyny is prevalent in hip hop culture" is a blatant example of non-neutrality, a morality claim, akin to saying "robbery is prevalent among African-American populations." Wikipedia is supposed to represent sides of an issue fairly which this article by no means does. The authors of this article also demonstrate poor knowledge of hip hop, as no context is provided for the Eminem and Tyler, the Creator songs—has it ever occurred to you that these songs could be interpreted to have a non-misogynistic meaning?
I also add that some of the information in the article is plain wrong. "Gangsta rap, the most commercially successful subgenre of hip hop" isn't by any means a fact, and neither is "Rap music is by far the most popular music genre for 8- to-18-year-olds."
In summary this article is extremely non-objective, displays a poor understanding of hip hop culture, and it backed up by weak claims. Please, separate fact and opinion.
Thoughts? Ideas to improve? This article needs a major revamping.
esotericeyes ( talk) 02:11, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
Esoteric eyes, the "Rationale" section gives several explanations for the presence of misogyny in hip hop music: Misogyny in rap music is a reflection of the environment and culture, record executives pressure artists to come up with increasingly violent and offensive lyrics, ethnographic studies link misogyny in rap music to the socialization and gender relations in certain inner-city communities. You will agree that this is quite different from your charge that the section describes rappers as "young, poor, black, materialistic, good-for-nothing human beings". In fact, the section was written in a way to suggest the exact opposite. Several quotes from academics who stress that misogyny is not a "male black thing" are included.
You will also notice that the article is based almost entirely on academic, highly reliable sources. Several studies and estimates of the prevalence of misogyny in hip hop music are cited. Your claim that citing these studies and their findings is a "morality claim" does not appear convincing to me.
If you have reliable sources which contradict the interpretations or sources used in the article, you're very welcome to include them. The sentence which you claim is "plain wrong" is sourced to an academic article which starts with the sentence "Gangsta rap music, the most popular selling subgenre of rap music, is predicated on an essentialized and limited contstuction of masculinity" (see opening paragraph).
I will remove your tag and advise you to read Wikipedia:NPOV dispute#Adding a tag to a page. -- Sonicyouth86 ( talk) 15:57, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
FM [ talk to me | show contributions ] 15:59, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
Overall I think this article brings up interesting points, however I think it could be cleaned up and made stronger in a few ways.
This entire article is very biased. It fails to mention firstly that the majority of hip hop artists are playing characters to describe the harsh reality of ghetto life and often describe situations in the first person that they themselves would consider immoral. Ice-T famously said of his song Cop Killer, "If you believe I'm a cop killer, you believe David Bowie's an astronaut". Many rappers known for misogynistic lyrics are real life pro-feminists, such as Jay-Z. Secondly, a lot of the "misogynistic" content of hip hop music and music videos is only considered such by some feminists. Whilst radical feminists would state that the display of sexuality in rap videos is part of patriachal objectification, other pro-sexual feminists would argue that they empower women and fight misogynistic ideas of women not enjoying sex as much as men. Thirdly, it is not just women who are hated and called untrustworthy in rap music. In hip hop, no one is to be trusted, and men are often described much worse than women. Now, I'm not saying that there is no misogyny in hip hop, but it is important for the article to reflect the other point of view, rather than this biased, one-sided essay that defies all Wikipedia non-bias guidelines. 220.244.162.100 ( talk) 06:01, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
![]() | This article was the subject of an educational assignment in Spring 2015. Further details were available on the "Education Program:SUNY-New Paltz/Gender and Sexuality in Hip Hop Culture (Spring 2015)" page, which is now unavailable on the wiki. |
women in hip hop
I think that this article speaks volumes. Misogyny is a very powerful act in the hip hop world. The disgrace that male hip hop artists bring to women, is very heartbreaking. They objectify us women as a source of power. They slander the women with their lyrics. They are used as a sex symbol as well. As for the article itself, I felt that it had a lot of information. I like how it mentioned Kanye West on the side about his role in his video. For Suggestions I would suggest adding more information on the background of hip hop. For example how hip hop was formed, when women started to be a focus of hip hop, etc. I also think the article should've included information about women who know which lyrics are about them in a song. I would like to see some more artists that use hip hop as a way to exploit women. Ladyrondo2 ( talk) 02:27, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
I agree that it is one-sided. The article takes for granted the feminist standpoint that all sexual portrayals of women victimize them. Better to stick to a neutral point of view and reference third party criticisms.
Krehel (
talk)
15:28, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
MBAILEY004 ( talk) 04:25, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
![]() | This article was the subject of an educational assignment in Spring 2015. Further details were available on the "Education Program:SUNY-New Paltz/Gender and Sexuality in Hip Hop Culture (Spring 2015)" page, which is now unavailable on the wiki. |
using the Eminem example was biased. the section of authenticity could have been explained more in depth. talk about how were these violent lyrics demanded (if they were) and why. the wider African american gender conflict viewpoint is very short. much needs to be added. the beginnings of hip hop as it relates to African-Americans should be spoken about and then connected to the gendered language and roles that have existed in hip hop.
hip hop culture extends into more than just music and rap, but the article just focused on music. being that it is a culture, misogyny and gender language in dancing, djing and other elements of hip hop should be mentioned. MBAILEY004 ( talk) 04:25, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
Statistics should be shown of the sales of both men and women who patronize Hip Hop artists with misogyny lyrics to get a better idea of the discrepancy or lack thereof, on finding out the primary contributors in business transactions of derogatory Hip Hop lyrics towards women. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sage Cadence ( talk • contribs) 10:05, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
In light of the discussion on this talk page about the need to significantly rework, or even delete, this article, I have been examining it more closely in the past few days. I have made, and will continue to make, small edits for clarity and overall cohesiveness. However, much more significant edits are needed to address some of my main concerns.
A few of these concerns are that:
here are some more detailed critiques of the first half of the article:
Title
Rational
Hunter.od ( talk) 03:58, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
Misogynistic themes
Prevalence
Overall Critique — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bustelo&mezcal ( talk • contribs) 03:23, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
I know I am not the first to say this, but the article seems to be about misogyny in rap music, not misogyny in hip hop culture. It should be renamed. ((( The Quixotic Potato))) ( talk) 06:27, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
I have moved the page, we need to follow the sources. ((( The Quixotic Potato))) ( talk) 03:06, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
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