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This part is very rough. Needs to be contextualized. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ted71 ( talk • contribs) 06:52, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
Googling "Milovan Djilas June 1911" brings up many hits for 12 June 1911, and none for 4 June. But I believe Montenegro was still using the Julian calendar back then, so do we know whether the date is Gregorian or Julian? -- JackofOz ( talk) 03:46, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Given that this is the English wikipedia, primarily for English-speakers, the fundamental problem with using the former spelling (while perhaps more accurate)is that the majority of readers will not know how it is pronounced, because Đ does not exist in the English alphabet. The purpose of spelling it DJ in English is so that English-speakers know how to pronounce it. And FWIW, the article quoted when it was moved back, is now again named Novak Djokovic. Cripipper ( talk) 13:15, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
The article was properly retitled in this edit following this discussion. Later, the page was incorrectly moved back, in this undiscussed unilateral change. There is no question which spelling is used more in English books: Djilas is far more common in English (and this understates the difference, due to numerous English sources which use Djilas throughout the book and provide Đilas once as the original spelling). Scholar shows a 7 to one ratio, but that greatly understates the difference as the latter results are almost all non-English. Restoring the correct page title per WP:AT, WP:COMMONNAME, and the original discussion. Mathglot ( talk) 13:06, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
Dragan Djilas is the mayor of Belgrade and listed as a fan of Djilas on Facebook. Any relation? son, grandson? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.16.196.194 ( talk) 06:41, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
He is definitely not his grandson. Perhaps distant relative, but grandson not. -- Bojan Talk 10:07, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
Quote: It was only in March of next year that he went back again to Montenegro, where in the meantime a civil war between Partisans and Chetniks had broken out. Momčilo Cemović, who has dealt mostly with this period of Đilas' war activities, believed that the CPY Central Committee and the Supreme Staff had sent Đilas to ascertain the actual state of affairs and to dismiss the communist leaders responsible. This, in fact, he did. End quote.
I rank this article as a stub: a simple Google search returns far more relevant information that do the 8 references in this article. The critical facts of the period about 1944 are simply missing - those facts made Đilas a controversial individual for many of us in the 70's and 80's and are easily documented from scholarly, academic and other journal articles of that period. Those facts were routinely ignored and should not pass without mention in an article on such a controversial figure, regardless of his intellect or literary output. Topic: the fate of non-Communist partisans. G. Robert Shiplett 14:09, 24 February 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Grshiplett ( talk • contribs)
A reader of this article might assume, given no reference, that Momčilo Cemović was an historian writing on the topic of Milovan Đilas and the partisans.
Compare the effort to present an balanced view of Slobodan Milošević in that wp article - an article in which Milovan Đilas is himself cited by name and with a reference.
A stub on Momčilo Cemović exists at this time in wp but is not linked in this article. G. Robert Shiplett 14:17, 24 February 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Grshiplett ( talk • contribs)
@ Fa alk:@ Amanuensis Balkanicus: I have the actual book by Djilas, Conversations with Stalin, where that quote is found. The context is very different though. He is describing a conversation he had with Stalin, where Stalin asks him whether the Albanians could be integrated in Yugoslavia as a whole (with the inclusion of Albania as a republic that is), to which Djilas replies that they're not Slavs and Stalin says something to the effect of "really? I thought they might be somehow related because of the Slavic toponyms in Albania" to which Djilas replies with the phrase that Fa alk used. I could give you the full quote here and you can decide for yourselves what to do with it. The way it could be included has to have proper framework though in the sense that it is part of Djilas's views about the national question in Leninist politics and the Balkan Federation in particular.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 00:28, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
Sure! :) -- Fa alk ( talk) 06:55, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
Let say, period of leftist errors begun in December 1941 after Soviet counteroffensive and German defeat in battle of Moscow and emergence of first Chetnik organisation of Đorđije Lašić also in December. Prior to that there weren't any Chetnik units, so partisans couldn't hunt them. Period of leftist deviation is most intensive in December/January, after partisan failed attack on Pljevlja. So, Đilas, being absent from Montenegro already in November, couldn't be called in Užice because of his errors. So called source is book The Croat Question: Partisan Politics in the Formation of the Yugoslav Socialist State where Đilas and Montenegro probably are just a side footnote. So I will delete it. -- Bojan Talk 06:17, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
chetniks/counterrevolutionary group in summer/early autumn of 1941were counterrevolutionary precisely because of the earlier communist revolutionary groups.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 20:59, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
Only when Djilas left for Serbia leftist deviation truly begun -- Bojan Talk 18:32, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
I'm waiting... -- Bojan Talk 14:04, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
You had to explain how his departure did not stop leftist errors, if he was sacked due to them. Give me an example of people killed from July until October, who were not Montenegrin separatists or Zbor members/sympathizers . -- Bojan Talk 19:23, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
Read this, this, and this. All of which implicate Đilas in "leftist errors" in Montenegro. Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 03:38, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
@ Peacemaker67: Again, period of leftist error is winter 1941/1942. Đilas wasn't there. Partisan actions are against Italians and their collaborators (Greens). Can your eminent sources explain why Đilas departure and "sacking" didn't stop terror, if he was responsible for it? -- Bojan Talk 02:22, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
Here is source from Yugoslav era:
„Leve greške", ili klasno radikaliziranje narodnooslobodilačke borbe, izazvale su u zimu 1941—1942. i u proleće 1942. teške posledice na položaj i uticaj naodnooslobodilačkog pokreta u Crnoj Gori i istočnoj Bosni i Hercegovini. Pored stvarnih neprijatelja narodnooslobodilačkog pokreta dolazilo je do likvidacija i potencijalnih saradnika okupatora. Likvidacije su vršene i vansudskim putem što je izazvalo strah, porazno delovalo na jedinstvo narodnooslobodilačkog pokreta kompromitovalo revolucionarne snage. Nerazvijena društvena osnova s jakim tradicijama plemenske i bratstveničke strukture nije, na drugoj strani, mogla da prihvati preuranjena „klasna usijanja". Likvidacije pojedinih komunista, koji nisu žesli da učestvuju u izvršenju smrtnih kazni, još su više pogoršavale situaciju na štetu narodnooslobodilačkog pokreta. Leva istrčavanja praćena su odstupanjem od linije narodnooslobodilačke borbe. „Tutnjava o revoluciji" samo je išla naruku protivnicima narodnooslobodilačkog pokreta. Koalicija kontrarevolucionarnih snaa sa neprijateljem, okupatorom, poraz Crnogorskog narodnooslobodilačkog odeda za operacije u Sandžaku u Pljevljima, opasnost od gladi još više su uticali na zaoštravanje levog kursa. Nastup četničke kontrarevolucije u Crnoj Gori nisu, međutim, izazvale „leve greške", iako su ubrzale njenu pojavu, jer su prvaci bulući četničkih snaga odranije bili u dosluhu sa Mihailovićem. Mihailović je u svojim ranijim instrukcijama zahtevao da se onemogući delatnost paralelnih oružanih snaga, da se prekine sa borbom protiv okupatora i založi za stvaranje „velike" ili „homogene" Srbije, četnička kontrarevolucija je u Srbiji već počela kada je došlo do „levih grešaka", a ona se kao lančana reakcija od kasne jeseni proširila na sve „srpske zemlje"...
-- Bojan Talk 02:32, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
In an 1991 interview to Vreme, Đilas called himself a "Serb from Montenegro". [1] Elserbio00 ( talk) 22:29, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 07:59, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
In this video Đilas says:
"Not only have I heard an authentic guslar, to whom lightning flashes from a gusla and to whom thunder thunders from his mouth, but what I have heard, but what I have seen an authentic representative of our race, when nothing can tire, confuse, frighten. Who has several talents in him, as all our true representatives of our region and our SERB race have" [2]
Elserbio00 ( talk) 09:49, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
[4] Elserbio00 ( talk) 11:17, 22 December 2020 (UTC)"I am a Montenegrin Serb. I am a Serb because I am Montenegrin. I am not a Montenegrin because I am a Serb, but a Serb because I am a Montenegrin. We Montenegrins, we are the pillar of Serbdom"
References
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Milovan Djilas article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
|
This part is very rough. Needs to be contextualized. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ted71 ( talk • contribs) 06:52, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
Googling "Milovan Djilas June 1911" brings up many hits for 12 June 1911, and none for 4 June. But I believe Montenegro was still using the Julian calendar back then, so do we know whether the date is Gregorian or Julian? -- JackofOz ( talk) 03:46, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Given that this is the English wikipedia, primarily for English-speakers, the fundamental problem with using the former spelling (while perhaps more accurate)is that the majority of readers will not know how it is pronounced, because Đ does not exist in the English alphabet. The purpose of spelling it DJ in English is so that English-speakers know how to pronounce it. And FWIW, the article quoted when it was moved back, is now again named Novak Djokovic. Cripipper ( talk) 13:15, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
The article was properly retitled in this edit following this discussion. Later, the page was incorrectly moved back, in this undiscussed unilateral change. There is no question which spelling is used more in English books: Djilas is far more common in English (and this understates the difference, due to numerous English sources which use Djilas throughout the book and provide Đilas once as the original spelling). Scholar shows a 7 to one ratio, but that greatly understates the difference as the latter results are almost all non-English. Restoring the correct page title per WP:AT, WP:COMMONNAME, and the original discussion. Mathglot ( talk) 13:06, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
Dragan Djilas is the mayor of Belgrade and listed as a fan of Djilas on Facebook. Any relation? son, grandson? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.16.196.194 ( talk) 06:41, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
He is definitely not his grandson. Perhaps distant relative, but grandson not. -- Bojan Talk 10:07, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
Quote: It was only in March of next year that he went back again to Montenegro, where in the meantime a civil war between Partisans and Chetniks had broken out. Momčilo Cemović, who has dealt mostly with this period of Đilas' war activities, believed that the CPY Central Committee and the Supreme Staff had sent Đilas to ascertain the actual state of affairs and to dismiss the communist leaders responsible. This, in fact, he did. End quote.
I rank this article as a stub: a simple Google search returns far more relevant information that do the 8 references in this article. The critical facts of the period about 1944 are simply missing - those facts made Đilas a controversial individual for many of us in the 70's and 80's and are easily documented from scholarly, academic and other journal articles of that period. Those facts were routinely ignored and should not pass without mention in an article on such a controversial figure, regardless of his intellect or literary output. Topic: the fate of non-Communist partisans. G. Robert Shiplett 14:09, 24 February 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Grshiplett ( talk • contribs)
A reader of this article might assume, given no reference, that Momčilo Cemović was an historian writing on the topic of Milovan Đilas and the partisans.
Compare the effort to present an balanced view of Slobodan Milošević in that wp article - an article in which Milovan Đilas is himself cited by name and with a reference.
A stub on Momčilo Cemović exists at this time in wp but is not linked in this article. G. Robert Shiplett 14:17, 24 February 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Grshiplett ( talk • contribs)
@ Fa alk:@ Amanuensis Balkanicus: I have the actual book by Djilas, Conversations with Stalin, where that quote is found. The context is very different though. He is describing a conversation he had with Stalin, where Stalin asks him whether the Albanians could be integrated in Yugoslavia as a whole (with the inclusion of Albania as a republic that is), to which Djilas replies that they're not Slavs and Stalin says something to the effect of "really? I thought they might be somehow related because of the Slavic toponyms in Albania" to which Djilas replies with the phrase that Fa alk used. I could give you the full quote here and you can decide for yourselves what to do with it. The way it could be included has to have proper framework though in the sense that it is part of Djilas's views about the national question in Leninist politics and the Balkan Federation in particular.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 00:28, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
Sure! :) -- Fa alk ( talk) 06:55, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
Let say, period of leftist errors begun in December 1941 after Soviet counteroffensive and German defeat in battle of Moscow and emergence of first Chetnik organisation of Đorđije Lašić also in December. Prior to that there weren't any Chetnik units, so partisans couldn't hunt them. Period of leftist deviation is most intensive in December/January, after partisan failed attack on Pljevlja. So, Đilas, being absent from Montenegro already in November, couldn't be called in Užice because of his errors. So called source is book The Croat Question: Partisan Politics in the Formation of the Yugoslav Socialist State where Đilas and Montenegro probably are just a side footnote. So I will delete it. -- Bojan Talk 06:17, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
chetniks/counterrevolutionary group in summer/early autumn of 1941were counterrevolutionary precisely because of the earlier communist revolutionary groups.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 20:59, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
Only when Djilas left for Serbia leftist deviation truly begun -- Bojan Talk 18:32, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
I'm waiting... -- Bojan Talk 14:04, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
You had to explain how his departure did not stop leftist errors, if he was sacked due to them. Give me an example of people killed from July until October, who were not Montenegrin separatists or Zbor members/sympathizers . -- Bojan Talk 19:23, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
Read this, this, and this. All of which implicate Đilas in "leftist errors" in Montenegro. Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 03:38, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
@ Peacemaker67: Again, period of leftist error is winter 1941/1942. Đilas wasn't there. Partisan actions are against Italians and their collaborators (Greens). Can your eminent sources explain why Đilas departure and "sacking" didn't stop terror, if he was responsible for it? -- Bojan Talk 02:22, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
Here is source from Yugoslav era:
„Leve greške", ili klasno radikaliziranje narodnooslobodilačke borbe, izazvale su u zimu 1941—1942. i u proleće 1942. teške posledice na položaj i uticaj naodnooslobodilačkog pokreta u Crnoj Gori i istočnoj Bosni i Hercegovini. Pored stvarnih neprijatelja narodnooslobodilačkog pokreta dolazilo je do likvidacija i potencijalnih saradnika okupatora. Likvidacije su vršene i vansudskim putem što je izazvalo strah, porazno delovalo na jedinstvo narodnooslobodilačkog pokreta kompromitovalo revolucionarne snage. Nerazvijena društvena osnova s jakim tradicijama plemenske i bratstveničke strukture nije, na drugoj strani, mogla da prihvati preuranjena „klasna usijanja". Likvidacije pojedinih komunista, koji nisu žesli da učestvuju u izvršenju smrtnih kazni, još su više pogoršavale situaciju na štetu narodnooslobodilačkog pokreta. Leva istrčavanja praćena su odstupanjem od linije narodnooslobodilačke borbe. „Tutnjava o revoluciji" samo je išla naruku protivnicima narodnooslobodilačkog pokreta. Koalicija kontrarevolucionarnih snaa sa neprijateljem, okupatorom, poraz Crnogorskog narodnooslobodilačkog odeda za operacije u Sandžaku u Pljevljima, opasnost od gladi još više su uticali na zaoštravanje levog kursa. Nastup četničke kontrarevolucije u Crnoj Gori nisu, međutim, izazvale „leve greške", iako su ubrzale njenu pojavu, jer su prvaci bulući četničkih snaga odranije bili u dosluhu sa Mihailovićem. Mihailović je u svojim ranijim instrukcijama zahtevao da se onemogući delatnost paralelnih oružanih snaga, da se prekine sa borbom protiv okupatora i založi za stvaranje „velike" ili „homogene" Srbije, četnička kontrarevolucija je u Srbiji već počela kada je došlo do „levih grešaka", a ona se kao lančana reakcija od kasne jeseni proširila na sve „srpske zemlje"...
-- Bojan Talk 02:32, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
In an 1991 interview to Vreme, Đilas called himself a "Serb from Montenegro". [1] Elserbio00 ( talk) 22:29, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 07:59, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
In this video Đilas says:
"Not only have I heard an authentic guslar, to whom lightning flashes from a gusla and to whom thunder thunders from his mouth, but what I have heard, but what I have seen an authentic representative of our race, when nothing can tire, confuse, frighten. Who has several talents in him, as all our true representatives of our region and our SERB race have" [2]
Elserbio00 ( talk) 09:49, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
[4] Elserbio00 ( talk) 11:17, 22 December 2020 (UTC)"I am a Montenegrin Serb. I am a Serb because I am Montenegrin. I am not a Montenegrin because I am a Serb, but a Serb because I am a Montenegrin. We Montenegrins, we are the pillar of Serbdom"
References