This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Perhaps a little controversy as to which bridge is "highest". While the pillar of the Millau Viaduct is possibly the tallest, the roadway itself is "only" 891 feet above the valley. The 1,053 ft measurement for the Royal Gorge bridge is the distance from the road surface to the river below. I can't find the measurement for the top of the pillars of the Royal Gorge bridge. But, it is still the highest bridge in the world as near as I can see. THe Millau Viaduct can likely claim "tallest" though.
answer: 1142.19 feet (reference: http://www.geocities.com/qubestrader/conversion.html)
This article and most news articles about this bridge fail to say how many lanes of traffic, and what types of traffic the bridge is built to accomodate.
When I translated pile from fr:Viaduc de Millau, I picked "pillar." The external link yahoo news article also says "pillar." But the Millau Viaduct article, which I just found and redirected to this one, called them "piers." If anyone knows which word is most correct, please say so (or just change it). Nathan 15:39, Jun 26, 2004 (UTC)
Actually Pier or Pylon is correct for bridges. Pillar is used when referring to a supporting member for the roof or roof sections such as a grand entry or a large hall. (Paul Bosanquet, Australia. No, I'm not an architect but I like Roman/Greek architecture.)
On first reading, I didn't understand that "pylon" and "pier" were the same thing. Here are some inconsistencies:
"The pylons each support 97 m tall masts." Should this be 88.92m? Should the article say "steel masts" here or somewhere?
"All the pylons are 97 m tall." Should this be "masts"? Should this be 88.92m?
"The seven masts, each 88.92 m high " Should this be "97m"?
"343 m: height of Pier 2, the tallest (245 m at the roadway's level)" I suggest "total height"?
"89 m: height of a mast" Should this be "97m"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.8.148.64 ( talk) 21:22, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
The following sentences sound odd. I can't really fathom their meaning, and so won't make edits, but if someone comes along who can figure them out, they should be changed.
The word "span" seems out of place here. Are these "spans" somehow related to traffic lanes? Are they attached to one another? Are they separated by little walls? Very ambiguous.
I get that it has a curve on a 20 km radius. But what does it mean to be "in plan section"? -- [User:Yath|Yath]] 21:42, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Why Millau viaduct rather than Millau Viaduct? Isn't it a proper name, like Severn Bridge or Golden Gate Bridge? Millau Viaduct has a history - does this need to go to WP:RM? -- ALoan (Talk) 22:19, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
answer to name question: the name is written in the French manner: proper names have capital letters, the rest of road names etc are put in lower case.
In the section "Statistics", the total volume of concrete used is reported to be 85,000 m³.
In the subsection "Construction / Costs and resources", the total volume of concrete used is reported to be 127,000 m³.
some of you are unbelievably petty! how many times are we still going to convert units backwards and forwards? can the next person who insists on converting units please keep both metric and imperial? 137.222.40.132 17:47, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
There is no really need to include non-SI luddite units or FFU (=Fred Flintstone Units), just to feed some people's ignorance and arrogance. The information in SI units is understandable to all. If you are an ignorant person who claims not to know them, then take the effort to learn what 99 % of the world knows. Adding FFU only makes the articles look cluttered and unprofessional.
Here is the information on the bridge in correct units without the clutter of FFU:
Structural statistics
17 December 2004 : Opening of bridge to traffic
15 December 2004 : Inauguration)
10 October 2001 : Construction work started
343 m : Height at top of pylons
270 m : Height of roadway over the Tarn
2,460 m : Total length of roadway
8 spans resting on 7 piers
2230 tonnes : Weight of each of the 16 sections of road-deck. Each section is built up from 60 tonne deck-units, each 4 m wide by 17 m long. The deck-units are built in Eiffel’s factories at Lauterbourg and Fos-sur-Mer.
Heights of the 7 piers :
P1 : 94,50 m P2 : 244,96 m P3 : 221,05 m P4 : 144,21 m P5 : 136,42 m P6 : 111,94 m P7 : 77,56 m
97 m : Height of the 7 pylons
154 : Number of stays supporting the road-deck from the pylons
36,000 tonnes : Total weight of roadbed’s steel structure (5 times the Eiffel tower)
19,000 tonnes : Steel used for reinforcing the concrete piers
5,000 tonnes : Steel used for the stays and cables
4.20 m : Thickness of steel road-deck
32.05 m : Width of road-deck
205,000 tonnes : Concrete
85,000 m3 : Total volume of concrete
3% (approximately) : Slope (for safety, to enable better visibility)
9,000 tonnes : Road tarmac - specially flexible bitumen laid to 6cm thickness
4,000 tonnes : Standard bitumen for the emergency strips on either side 520 workers
300 million euro : Cost. The cost has finished at half the anticipated estimate. (plus 20 million euro for the toll station 6 km from the bridge’s North end).
120 years : Predicted lifespan
Architect: Norman Foster
Constructor: Eiffage Group. Their website has a number of short web films on the bridge as construction progresses and an animation of the bridge in use. (Note: commentaries in French.)
Paris-Clermont-Ferrand-Béziers : The Viaduc de Millau will complete this north-south motorway through te heart of France, crossing the Massif Central.
Tolls - 4.60 euro: off-season, 6.50 euro: during July and August; both charges for light vehicles. Lorries: 20 euro throughout the year. The rest of the 340 km A75 autoroute is free.
Constructed for the A75 motorway (autoroute) - the Méridienne. The weblink provided is to the English version of the motorway company’s “complete file”, which details the original planning for the route taken and for the final choice of bridge structure (includes maps, photos and diagrams)
http://www.abelard.org/france/viaduct-de-millau.asp
Happy Metric Motoring!
>When in a Parisian bar, I ordered "un demi" and was served a half-pint of beer< No you weren't, you were served 250cl. It was probably marked on the glass as such. For obscure reasons, a demi is actually a demi-demi in French bar parlance. In many bars it's possible to order a véritable demi — 500cl — in others that would be called a sérieux. (From one with vast experience of drinking in France) -- El Ingles ( talk) 14:51, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
I assume this means 3°, as that is how slopes are usually measured, but I'm no engineer. Ливай | ☺ 22:41, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
You can see a pic of Millau at night on Serbian Wikipedia. -- pokrajac 00:11, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I have posted this on WP:PR with a view to going to WP:FAC in a while. The page looks short but pretty complete to me - what else should be added? Some paper references would be good, but the web pages should suffice.
One area confuses me: the last paragraph of section 3.3 (Costs and resources) says:
but the next section states:
Which is right? -- ALoan (Talk) 16:33, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
My understanding was that the section of road from Clermont Ferrand south was only toll free until the Viaduct opened. Perhaps someone can confirm that tolls are now in place all the way to the south coast CustardJack 12:13, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Having crossed it two days ago, it is toll from from Clermont Ferrand to the turnoff for Millau and toll free from Millau to Montpellier. the bridge itself is now 5.10 Euro for light cars- Gandalf
As a resident of Millau, I can confirm the A75 south of Clermont Ferrand is STILL toll free as far as Junction 45 to Millau; the 10 km section including the Viaduct as far south as junction 46 to La Cavalerie is tolled at €5.10 for cars, then the A75 is free to the end of the current motorway at Pezenas in Herault. The short A750 spur south of Lodève in Herault from St Felix to St André de Sangonis (& soon to Gignac) and ultimately to Montpellier is also free. There is no sign of building the toll booth areas. Larzac1 ( talk) 16:45, 27 May 2008 (UTC) May 08
The first paragraph says "...it is the tallest vehicular bridge in the world, with one pier's summit at 343 metres (1,125 ft)...", but then the Description paragraph says "The Millau Viaduct is the second highest vehicular bridge measured from the roadway elevation. Its deck, at approximately 270 m (886 ft) above the Tarn, is slightly higher than the New River Gorge Bridge in West Virginia in the United States, which is 267 m (876 ft) above the New River. The Royal Gorge Bridge in Colorado, United States has a deck considerably higher than either, at 321 m (1,053 ft) above the Arkansas River". Which one of these is true? If the bridge was 1,125 ft off the ground, then it would be the tallest in the world. bruce89 11:43, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
How much time is saved crossing the valley because of this bridge? -- Commking 01:19, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
A considerable amount of time, but how much depends on the time of year. It was not uncommon to spend 4 hours driving via Millau on the old Route National 9 on a Saturday in summer. Actually, 'driving' is not quite the right word - crawling would be better. Even on a less busy day, the route through the town of Millau, though spectacular, would still take about an hour, assuming no hold ups. The A75 over the viaduct takes about 15 minutes to cover the 42km of road it has replaced. I went over the viaduct a few days ago for the tenth time - a great sight! Emeraude 18:00, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
And here is the article to cite the time-savings: http://tollroadsnews.info/artman/publish/article_745.shtml they claim .75 to 3 hrs —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.187.238.242 ( talk) 06:08, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Is it possible to walk across this bridge? -- Eraticus 19:52, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Absolutely not - it's a motorway so stopping is not allowed either. There is a viewpoint constructed at the north end of the bridge accessed from the motorway, and there are excellent vantage points all around. A visitor centre is located UNDER the bridge. Emeraude 18:02, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
There is a walkway though, so it is possible (last, bottom-right picture). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.187.238.242 ( talk) 05:29, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
The article says that it is curved on a 20km radius "to give drivers better visibility". It occurs to me, however, that this curve is likely to be of huge benefit to the bridge in terms of stability - I think it is far more likely to be an engineering decision than a practical one, though added visibility may well be an additional effect.
Norman Foster, the architect who designed the Viaduct, says he curved it so drivers could see it all as they drove across - it is principally for aesthetic reasons Larzac1 ( talk) 16:50, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
I think the article would benefit from more about the construction of the bridge. It is generally regarded as one of the greatest, if not the greatest, engineering achievement ever. You only have to consider that the motorway was built over a hundred miles away, and moved on top of the pillars which as we know are over 200m above the ground. The whole thing could have been destroyed had any mistakes been made at this stage. On top of that there were 0 major injuries to workers involved. No disrespect to Norman Foster, but in terms of the whole construction of the bridge, his contribution is dwarfed by the engineering feat. Macgruder 12:02, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
What you say is abundantly true in any event, Macgruder, but consider this from Private Eye No. 1266, p12, a review of Deyan Sudjic's Norman Foster: A Life in Architecture:
[Speaking of fulsome praise for Foster]This reaches its apogee with the adulation of Foster as the designer of the astonishing vertiginous seven-span (sic) Viaduc de Millau. Here, the author grudgingly acknowledges that our Norman worked with Michel Virlogeux, "the French engineer who was responsible for the calculations on which the design depends". In other words, he was the man who actually designed it. And he did. The full story is given in Exploding the Myths of Modern Architecture by Malcolm Millais (an engineer). The concept was entirely Virlogeux's but, for political reasons, Foster was brought in to get the project to go ahead and his firm merely refined the shape of the columns and improved the way the deck meets the hillside. Sudjic reveals that Foster made the cables and handrails white rather than black. Genius!
In a review of Sudjic, Jonathan Meade notes that Foster had not seen "his" viaduct until a few weeks before it opened and "according to the starchitect-struck Midi-Libre, Milord helicoptered himself in and lavished all of forty precious minutes on it."
Moletrouser ( talk) 08:46, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
I'd make the entry myself but it's partly due to laziness and lack of formatting skills which prevents me from doing so
Anyway, according Classic FM, the Viaduct has been voted as one of the new Wonders of the World http://www.classicfmwonders.com/
-- Jayau1234 11:44, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I am beginning a translation from the French article, and I will integrate all info into the current article. Max Naylor 12:31, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Nowhere are they mentioned as it stands, and if there was ever a construction project that needed structural engineering expertise, this is it.
I very strongly suspect that what we translators have rendered as "design offices" (bureaux d'études) are in fact structural engineers. My dictionary of technical French wants a structural engineer to be merely a "génie civil" but I'm not convinced. Anybody object if I make that change? El Ingles 13:28, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
The 'external links' section is much longer than the 'references' section. Please move the links used as references (using them inline is much better for verifiability of individual sentences) and remove redundant ones as appropriate. See WP:CITE and WP:EL for more information. Ǣ0 ƞS 12:33, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
This has been killing me for ages... (well only actually for a couple months). Can anyone confirm if this photo: http://arden.netfirms.com/millau.jpg is a picture of the Millau bridge? Thanks! ArdenD 08:31, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
The "Statistics" section reminds me of those "numbers" sections in some articles, in which the statistics are stated backwards, so as to impress readers with numbers. It seems out of place and is annoying to read:
Instead of
The chronological section is laid out topically, and jumps large time spans, making it easy to ignore and gloss over important details. I found these links useful, if someone would like to incorporate them into a redesigned chronology section:
talk with Virlogeux: http://www.jfccivilengineer.com/le_concepteur.htm
press release, information on last paragraph: http://www.dezeen.com/2007/03/21/millau-viaduct-by-foster-partners/
lots of information, first mention of enerpac: http://www.constructionequipmentguide.com/story.asp?story=5308&headline=Millau%20Viaduct%20Rises%20to%20a%20Record%20Height
brief on enerpacs website: http://www.enerpac.com/millau/Millau_Viaduct_Project/Millau.html
lots of facts: http://en.structurae.de/structures/data/index.cfm?id=s0000351
As I can tell, there was a lot of tension between SETRA and Virlogeux, leading to Foster & Partners. The first press release seems to say that a team of architect-engineer was required by the Department of Transport and Public Works of France, even though the entire thing was motivated by SETRA. But I cant find who hosted the competition, SETRA, DTPW, etc...
Preliminary, unfinished (possibly too informal) history
In 1987 CETE drafted up four possible routes through Aveyron plans to finalize the A75 autoroute and facilitate a less congested mode of travel across the river Tarn. and. in Aix-en-Provence decreed a bridge as a more natural choice over tunnel, and in 2001 As head of SETRA's structures division, Virlogeux had since then been roughing out the structural implementation with the dutch firm ARCADIS. However several years into R&D SETRA's new director, desiring publicity, hired a group of 8 engineers and 7 architects to refine and diversify the initial plans. Eventually the firm decided to discontinue Virlogeux's involvement in favor of external architecture-engineer groups. In response Virlogeux spearheaded the Foster & Partners group, which went on to win the bid. The winner contruction
Millau and the Royal George bridge both claim that their deck height is larger than the other in both the Millau and the Royal Gorge Bridge articles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 20.133.0.13 ( talk) 13:42, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Balinghe bridge in Guizhou province of China is a big suspension bridge with a span of 1088m, its road deck is 370m(clearance) high from the Baling river, I think it's the tallest bridge in the world. for more information, please see http://baike.baidu.com/view/1130690.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.68.163.4 ( talk) 18:24, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
When I first read the article I wanted a photo of the Toll Plaza because it is hard to imagine the "leaf shape". When I was in the area I managed to get a photo of the plaza however it's not the best. If someone has a better quality picture please replace mine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.34.67.156 ( talk) 15:08, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
Done ClemRutter ( talk) 17:41, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
France has no Freedom of Panorama provision, so commons must delete any photographs of a modern work of art. (This includes images in this article.)The bridge cannot be photographed- so many of the best images and even some of mine have be tagged for deletion. Image:Millau7663.JPG A photograph where the bridge is in the background, and not the main subject of the photograph may be acceptable to Commons. This does mean that in future, superb photographs of the bridge will be added to commons and removed. The situation may be different for photos stored on en:wikipedia. I think this needs to be discussed and if necessary images should be duplicated on en:wikipedia awaiting a judgement. ClemRutter ( talk) 17:41, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
El Puente Baluarte tendrá una longitud de mil 124 metros; será la estructura atirantada más grande de América Latina, ya que cuenta con una altura de 390 metros, lo que permitirá librar una barranca de esta profundidad con un claro central de 520 metros, y ahorrará de tres horas y media de recorrido total de la autopista, porque actualmente la distancia entre Durango-Mazatlán es de cinco horas promedio.
According to Google Translate:
Rojomoke ( talk) 23:57, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
Seems the article states in two places that the Toll Plaza is 4km and 6km from the end of the viaduct. Can someone check and fix it so it's consistent? Sambridger ( talk) 04:58, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
34 World’s Tallest Bridge (Millau Bridge) Viaduct neatr Millau, France 12/20/2005
A whole episode was dedicated to the bridge and the build of it... - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MegaStructures - Gunnar Guðvarðarson ( My Talk) 21:54, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
Isn't it about time to start deleting text that is not supported by a reference? I would say that this article is now only 'c' grade as it fails 'B' criteria 1. -- ClemRutter ( talk) 21:24, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
Clem, sounds like you may have misunderstood wiki "policy" on citations. Material that is likely to be challenged needs backup — that would not apply to physical facts about a structure such as this. -- El Ingles ( talk) 21:47, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
This bridge is a marvellous object, but the article isn't focused on it. It reads like a promotional magazine article with too many detailed facts. For example, there's too much information on routes; the timeline of the project could be condensed (or referenced); the list of famous visitors is probably of little interest to most readers; points in the 'miscellaneous' section could be integrated (or discarded). I'm marking it for cleanup, and don't think it's better than C-class. Twang ( talk) 18:07, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
When mentioning official decisions by the French government, please give a link to Légifrance. Decrees etc. are numbered, there is no reason to be vague. David.Monniaux ( talk) 14:05, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
The article as it stands at the moment says that the top parts of the masts were added after the roadway was completed (a fairly detailed description with heading Erection of Masts, and in the general Description). A National Geographic video on YouTube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4ZNMEpsocY , 41 seconds in, however, clearly shows the roadway being pushed out with a top part of mast already attached. Possibly only the "leading end" of the roadway had a mast already attached, and the others were added later, but does anyone have any other actual references for how it was done? FrankSier ( talk) 23:15, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Perhaps a little controversy as to which bridge is "highest". While the pillar of the Millau Viaduct is possibly the tallest, the roadway itself is "only" 891 feet above the valley. The 1,053 ft measurement for the Royal Gorge bridge is the distance from the road surface to the river below. I can't find the measurement for the top of the pillars of the Royal Gorge bridge. But, it is still the highest bridge in the world as near as I can see. THe Millau Viaduct can likely claim "tallest" though.
answer: 1142.19 feet (reference: http://www.geocities.com/qubestrader/conversion.html)
This article and most news articles about this bridge fail to say how many lanes of traffic, and what types of traffic the bridge is built to accomodate.
When I translated pile from fr:Viaduc de Millau, I picked "pillar." The external link yahoo news article also says "pillar." But the Millau Viaduct article, which I just found and redirected to this one, called them "piers." If anyone knows which word is most correct, please say so (or just change it). Nathan 15:39, Jun 26, 2004 (UTC)
Actually Pier or Pylon is correct for bridges. Pillar is used when referring to a supporting member for the roof or roof sections such as a grand entry or a large hall. (Paul Bosanquet, Australia. No, I'm not an architect but I like Roman/Greek architecture.)
On first reading, I didn't understand that "pylon" and "pier" were the same thing. Here are some inconsistencies:
"The pylons each support 97 m tall masts." Should this be 88.92m? Should the article say "steel masts" here or somewhere?
"All the pylons are 97 m tall." Should this be "masts"? Should this be 88.92m?
"The seven masts, each 88.92 m high " Should this be "97m"?
"343 m: height of Pier 2, the tallest (245 m at the roadway's level)" I suggest "total height"?
"89 m: height of a mast" Should this be "97m"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.8.148.64 ( talk) 21:22, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
The following sentences sound odd. I can't really fathom their meaning, and so won't make edits, but if someone comes along who can figure them out, they should be changed.
The word "span" seems out of place here. Are these "spans" somehow related to traffic lanes? Are they attached to one another? Are they separated by little walls? Very ambiguous.
I get that it has a curve on a 20 km radius. But what does it mean to be "in plan section"? -- [User:Yath|Yath]] 21:42, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Why Millau viaduct rather than Millau Viaduct? Isn't it a proper name, like Severn Bridge or Golden Gate Bridge? Millau Viaduct has a history - does this need to go to WP:RM? -- ALoan (Talk) 22:19, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
answer to name question: the name is written in the French manner: proper names have capital letters, the rest of road names etc are put in lower case.
In the section "Statistics", the total volume of concrete used is reported to be 85,000 m³.
In the subsection "Construction / Costs and resources", the total volume of concrete used is reported to be 127,000 m³.
some of you are unbelievably petty! how many times are we still going to convert units backwards and forwards? can the next person who insists on converting units please keep both metric and imperial? 137.222.40.132 17:47, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
There is no really need to include non-SI luddite units or FFU (=Fred Flintstone Units), just to feed some people's ignorance and arrogance. The information in SI units is understandable to all. If you are an ignorant person who claims not to know them, then take the effort to learn what 99 % of the world knows. Adding FFU only makes the articles look cluttered and unprofessional.
Here is the information on the bridge in correct units without the clutter of FFU:
Structural statistics
17 December 2004 : Opening of bridge to traffic
15 December 2004 : Inauguration)
10 October 2001 : Construction work started
343 m : Height at top of pylons
270 m : Height of roadway over the Tarn
2,460 m : Total length of roadway
8 spans resting on 7 piers
2230 tonnes : Weight of each of the 16 sections of road-deck. Each section is built up from 60 tonne deck-units, each 4 m wide by 17 m long. The deck-units are built in Eiffel’s factories at Lauterbourg and Fos-sur-Mer.
Heights of the 7 piers :
P1 : 94,50 m P2 : 244,96 m P3 : 221,05 m P4 : 144,21 m P5 : 136,42 m P6 : 111,94 m P7 : 77,56 m
97 m : Height of the 7 pylons
154 : Number of stays supporting the road-deck from the pylons
36,000 tonnes : Total weight of roadbed’s steel structure (5 times the Eiffel tower)
19,000 tonnes : Steel used for reinforcing the concrete piers
5,000 tonnes : Steel used for the stays and cables
4.20 m : Thickness of steel road-deck
32.05 m : Width of road-deck
205,000 tonnes : Concrete
85,000 m3 : Total volume of concrete
3% (approximately) : Slope (for safety, to enable better visibility)
9,000 tonnes : Road tarmac - specially flexible bitumen laid to 6cm thickness
4,000 tonnes : Standard bitumen for the emergency strips on either side 520 workers
300 million euro : Cost. The cost has finished at half the anticipated estimate. (plus 20 million euro for the toll station 6 km from the bridge’s North end).
120 years : Predicted lifespan
Architect: Norman Foster
Constructor: Eiffage Group. Their website has a number of short web films on the bridge as construction progresses and an animation of the bridge in use. (Note: commentaries in French.)
Paris-Clermont-Ferrand-Béziers : The Viaduc de Millau will complete this north-south motorway through te heart of France, crossing the Massif Central.
Tolls - 4.60 euro: off-season, 6.50 euro: during July and August; both charges for light vehicles. Lorries: 20 euro throughout the year. The rest of the 340 km A75 autoroute is free.
Constructed for the A75 motorway (autoroute) - the Méridienne. The weblink provided is to the English version of the motorway company’s “complete file”, which details the original planning for the route taken and for the final choice of bridge structure (includes maps, photos and diagrams)
http://www.abelard.org/france/viaduct-de-millau.asp
Happy Metric Motoring!
>When in a Parisian bar, I ordered "un demi" and was served a half-pint of beer< No you weren't, you were served 250cl. It was probably marked on the glass as such. For obscure reasons, a demi is actually a demi-demi in French bar parlance. In many bars it's possible to order a véritable demi — 500cl — in others that would be called a sérieux. (From one with vast experience of drinking in France) -- El Ingles ( talk) 14:51, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
I assume this means 3°, as that is how slopes are usually measured, but I'm no engineer. Ливай | ☺ 22:41, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
You can see a pic of Millau at night on Serbian Wikipedia. -- pokrajac 00:11, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I have posted this on WP:PR with a view to going to WP:FAC in a while. The page looks short but pretty complete to me - what else should be added? Some paper references would be good, but the web pages should suffice.
One area confuses me: the last paragraph of section 3.3 (Costs and resources) says:
but the next section states:
Which is right? -- ALoan (Talk) 16:33, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
My understanding was that the section of road from Clermont Ferrand south was only toll free until the Viaduct opened. Perhaps someone can confirm that tolls are now in place all the way to the south coast CustardJack 12:13, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Having crossed it two days ago, it is toll from from Clermont Ferrand to the turnoff for Millau and toll free from Millau to Montpellier. the bridge itself is now 5.10 Euro for light cars- Gandalf
As a resident of Millau, I can confirm the A75 south of Clermont Ferrand is STILL toll free as far as Junction 45 to Millau; the 10 km section including the Viaduct as far south as junction 46 to La Cavalerie is tolled at €5.10 for cars, then the A75 is free to the end of the current motorway at Pezenas in Herault. The short A750 spur south of Lodève in Herault from St Felix to St André de Sangonis (& soon to Gignac) and ultimately to Montpellier is also free. There is no sign of building the toll booth areas. Larzac1 ( talk) 16:45, 27 May 2008 (UTC) May 08
The first paragraph says "...it is the tallest vehicular bridge in the world, with one pier's summit at 343 metres (1,125 ft)...", but then the Description paragraph says "The Millau Viaduct is the second highest vehicular bridge measured from the roadway elevation. Its deck, at approximately 270 m (886 ft) above the Tarn, is slightly higher than the New River Gorge Bridge in West Virginia in the United States, which is 267 m (876 ft) above the New River. The Royal Gorge Bridge in Colorado, United States has a deck considerably higher than either, at 321 m (1,053 ft) above the Arkansas River". Which one of these is true? If the bridge was 1,125 ft off the ground, then it would be the tallest in the world. bruce89 11:43, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
How much time is saved crossing the valley because of this bridge? -- Commking 01:19, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
A considerable amount of time, but how much depends on the time of year. It was not uncommon to spend 4 hours driving via Millau on the old Route National 9 on a Saturday in summer. Actually, 'driving' is not quite the right word - crawling would be better. Even on a less busy day, the route through the town of Millau, though spectacular, would still take about an hour, assuming no hold ups. The A75 over the viaduct takes about 15 minutes to cover the 42km of road it has replaced. I went over the viaduct a few days ago for the tenth time - a great sight! Emeraude 18:00, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
And here is the article to cite the time-savings: http://tollroadsnews.info/artman/publish/article_745.shtml they claim .75 to 3 hrs —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.187.238.242 ( talk) 06:08, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Is it possible to walk across this bridge? -- Eraticus 19:52, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Absolutely not - it's a motorway so stopping is not allowed either. There is a viewpoint constructed at the north end of the bridge accessed from the motorway, and there are excellent vantage points all around. A visitor centre is located UNDER the bridge. Emeraude 18:02, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
There is a walkway though, so it is possible (last, bottom-right picture). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.187.238.242 ( talk) 05:29, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
The article says that it is curved on a 20km radius "to give drivers better visibility". It occurs to me, however, that this curve is likely to be of huge benefit to the bridge in terms of stability - I think it is far more likely to be an engineering decision than a practical one, though added visibility may well be an additional effect.
Norman Foster, the architect who designed the Viaduct, says he curved it so drivers could see it all as they drove across - it is principally for aesthetic reasons Larzac1 ( talk) 16:50, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
I think the article would benefit from more about the construction of the bridge. It is generally regarded as one of the greatest, if not the greatest, engineering achievement ever. You only have to consider that the motorway was built over a hundred miles away, and moved on top of the pillars which as we know are over 200m above the ground. The whole thing could have been destroyed had any mistakes been made at this stage. On top of that there were 0 major injuries to workers involved. No disrespect to Norman Foster, but in terms of the whole construction of the bridge, his contribution is dwarfed by the engineering feat. Macgruder 12:02, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
What you say is abundantly true in any event, Macgruder, but consider this from Private Eye No. 1266, p12, a review of Deyan Sudjic's Norman Foster: A Life in Architecture:
[Speaking of fulsome praise for Foster]This reaches its apogee with the adulation of Foster as the designer of the astonishing vertiginous seven-span (sic) Viaduc de Millau. Here, the author grudgingly acknowledges that our Norman worked with Michel Virlogeux, "the French engineer who was responsible for the calculations on which the design depends". In other words, he was the man who actually designed it. And he did. The full story is given in Exploding the Myths of Modern Architecture by Malcolm Millais (an engineer). The concept was entirely Virlogeux's but, for political reasons, Foster was brought in to get the project to go ahead and his firm merely refined the shape of the columns and improved the way the deck meets the hillside. Sudjic reveals that Foster made the cables and handrails white rather than black. Genius!
In a review of Sudjic, Jonathan Meade notes that Foster had not seen "his" viaduct until a few weeks before it opened and "according to the starchitect-struck Midi-Libre, Milord helicoptered himself in and lavished all of forty precious minutes on it."
Moletrouser ( talk) 08:46, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
I'd make the entry myself but it's partly due to laziness and lack of formatting skills which prevents me from doing so
Anyway, according Classic FM, the Viaduct has been voted as one of the new Wonders of the World http://www.classicfmwonders.com/
-- Jayau1234 11:44, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I am beginning a translation from the French article, and I will integrate all info into the current article. Max Naylor 12:31, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Nowhere are they mentioned as it stands, and if there was ever a construction project that needed structural engineering expertise, this is it.
I very strongly suspect that what we translators have rendered as "design offices" (bureaux d'études) are in fact structural engineers. My dictionary of technical French wants a structural engineer to be merely a "génie civil" but I'm not convinced. Anybody object if I make that change? El Ingles 13:28, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
The 'external links' section is much longer than the 'references' section. Please move the links used as references (using them inline is much better for verifiability of individual sentences) and remove redundant ones as appropriate. See WP:CITE and WP:EL for more information. Ǣ0 ƞS 12:33, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
This has been killing me for ages... (well only actually for a couple months). Can anyone confirm if this photo: http://arden.netfirms.com/millau.jpg is a picture of the Millau bridge? Thanks! ArdenD 08:31, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
The "Statistics" section reminds me of those "numbers" sections in some articles, in which the statistics are stated backwards, so as to impress readers with numbers. It seems out of place and is annoying to read:
Instead of
The chronological section is laid out topically, and jumps large time spans, making it easy to ignore and gloss over important details. I found these links useful, if someone would like to incorporate them into a redesigned chronology section:
talk with Virlogeux: http://www.jfccivilengineer.com/le_concepteur.htm
press release, information on last paragraph: http://www.dezeen.com/2007/03/21/millau-viaduct-by-foster-partners/
lots of information, first mention of enerpac: http://www.constructionequipmentguide.com/story.asp?story=5308&headline=Millau%20Viaduct%20Rises%20to%20a%20Record%20Height
brief on enerpacs website: http://www.enerpac.com/millau/Millau_Viaduct_Project/Millau.html
lots of facts: http://en.structurae.de/structures/data/index.cfm?id=s0000351
As I can tell, there was a lot of tension between SETRA and Virlogeux, leading to Foster & Partners. The first press release seems to say that a team of architect-engineer was required by the Department of Transport and Public Works of France, even though the entire thing was motivated by SETRA. But I cant find who hosted the competition, SETRA, DTPW, etc...
Preliminary, unfinished (possibly too informal) history
In 1987 CETE drafted up four possible routes through Aveyron plans to finalize the A75 autoroute and facilitate a less congested mode of travel across the river Tarn. and. in Aix-en-Provence decreed a bridge as a more natural choice over tunnel, and in 2001 As head of SETRA's structures division, Virlogeux had since then been roughing out the structural implementation with the dutch firm ARCADIS. However several years into R&D SETRA's new director, desiring publicity, hired a group of 8 engineers and 7 architects to refine and diversify the initial plans. Eventually the firm decided to discontinue Virlogeux's involvement in favor of external architecture-engineer groups. In response Virlogeux spearheaded the Foster & Partners group, which went on to win the bid. The winner contruction
Millau and the Royal George bridge both claim that their deck height is larger than the other in both the Millau and the Royal Gorge Bridge articles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 20.133.0.13 ( talk) 13:42, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Balinghe bridge in Guizhou province of China is a big suspension bridge with a span of 1088m, its road deck is 370m(clearance) high from the Baling river, I think it's the tallest bridge in the world. for more information, please see http://baike.baidu.com/view/1130690.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.68.163.4 ( talk) 18:24, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
When I first read the article I wanted a photo of the Toll Plaza because it is hard to imagine the "leaf shape". When I was in the area I managed to get a photo of the plaza however it's not the best. If someone has a better quality picture please replace mine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.34.67.156 ( talk) 15:08, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
Done ClemRutter ( talk) 17:41, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
France has no Freedom of Panorama provision, so commons must delete any photographs of a modern work of art. (This includes images in this article.)The bridge cannot be photographed- so many of the best images and even some of mine have be tagged for deletion. Image:Millau7663.JPG A photograph where the bridge is in the background, and not the main subject of the photograph may be acceptable to Commons. This does mean that in future, superb photographs of the bridge will be added to commons and removed. The situation may be different for photos stored on en:wikipedia. I think this needs to be discussed and if necessary images should be duplicated on en:wikipedia awaiting a judgement. ClemRutter ( talk) 17:41, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
El Puente Baluarte tendrá una longitud de mil 124 metros; será la estructura atirantada más grande de América Latina, ya que cuenta con una altura de 390 metros, lo que permitirá librar una barranca de esta profundidad con un claro central de 520 metros, y ahorrará de tres horas y media de recorrido total de la autopista, porque actualmente la distancia entre Durango-Mazatlán es de cinco horas promedio.
According to Google Translate:
Rojomoke ( talk) 23:57, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
Seems the article states in two places that the Toll Plaza is 4km and 6km from the end of the viaduct. Can someone check and fix it so it's consistent? Sambridger ( talk) 04:58, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
34 World’s Tallest Bridge (Millau Bridge) Viaduct neatr Millau, France 12/20/2005
A whole episode was dedicated to the bridge and the build of it... - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MegaStructures - Gunnar Guðvarðarson ( My Talk) 21:54, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
Isn't it about time to start deleting text that is not supported by a reference? I would say that this article is now only 'c' grade as it fails 'B' criteria 1. -- ClemRutter ( talk) 21:24, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
Clem, sounds like you may have misunderstood wiki "policy" on citations. Material that is likely to be challenged needs backup — that would not apply to physical facts about a structure such as this. -- El Ingles ( talk) 21:47, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
This bridge is a marvellous object, but the article isn't focused on it. It reads like a promotional magazine article with too many detailed facts. For example, there's too much information on routes; the timeline of the project could be condensed (or referenced); the list of famous visitors is probably of little interest to most readers; points in the 'miscellaneous' section could be integrated (or discarded). I'm marking it for cleanup, and don't think it's better than C-class. Twang ( talk) 18:07, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
When mentioning official decisions by the French government, please give a link to Légifrance. Decrees etc. are numbered, there is no reason to be vague. David.Monniaux ( talk) 14:05, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
The article as it stands at the moment says that the top parts of the masts were added after the roadway was completed (a fairly detailed description with heading Erection of Masts, and in the general Description). A National Geographic video on YouTube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4ZNMEpsocY , 41 seconds in, however, clearly shows the roadway being pushed out with a top part of mast already attached. Possibly only the "leading end" of the roadway had a mast already attached, and the others were added later, but does anyone have any other actual references for how it was done? FrankSier ( talk) 23:15, 2 October 2010 (UTC)