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(copied from Talk:John Kerry 09:13, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
A direct quote by the Dr. who treated Kerry uses the same three words I use: "injury", "superficial" and "small". Rex071404 216.153.214.94 00:07, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
Read Letson's statement again:
What I saw was a small piece of metal sticking very superficially in the skin of Kerry's arm. The metal fragment measured about 1 cm. in length and was about 2 or 3 mm in diameter. It certainly did not look like a round from a rifle.
I simply removed the piece of metal by lifting it out of the skin with forceps. I doubt that it penetrated more than 3 or 4 mm. It did not require probing to find it, did not require any anesthesia to remove it, and did not require any sutures to close the wound.
The wound was covered with a bandaid."
He uses the word "injury" 1st and "wound" last - so do I.
Now, as to the use of "superficial", I use that as I did because Letson said:
He is clealry stating that the injury was superficial.
Using the FACTS providd by Letson, I have assembled a non-POV sentence which uses all four key words and does not distort their meaning:
"Kerry suffered a superficial injury from a small piece of shrapnel in the left arm above the elbow [2]. The shrapnel was removed and the wounded area was treated with bacitracin antibiotic and bandaged."
Other than to re-tweak it as:
"Kerry suffered a superficial injury from a small piece of shrapnel in the left arm above the elbow [3]. The shrapnel was removed and the wound was treated with bacitracin antibiotic and bandaged."
I see no justifications for changing these two sentences. Rex071404 216.153.214.94 00:26, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
The quote from Dr. Leston and the words he used, are in not and of themselves "controversial". Rather, the "controversy" attaches to those words by various editors here who insist on inserting sentences such as "Kerry's opponents, including the Swift Boat Veterans For Truth, have contended that this wound was too minor to merit a Purple Heart and that Kerry used this injury as his first of three to game the system and obtain early release from his Vietnam service. However, Kerry's wound did qualify him for consideration under Naval guidelines for a purple heart, and a subsequent Naval review reiterated their position that the purple heart was correctly given".
Owing to the fact that this text which I edited in...
...uses the EXACT WORDS that Dr. Letson used and because it's also carefully written, it's not in and of itself a controversy. If you insist on calling it such, we'll end up at the point where no text referring to the 1st injury/wound is allowed in, as every variant could be deemed "controversy". See Talk:Stolen_Honor#Per se controversy articles and associate sections on that talk page for related explanations. Rex071404 216.153.214.94 04:24, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
I disagree with James's inferrence that the article has an enforced stasis regarding this section of text. I came up with phrasing which I think is NPOV towards both sides and is in fact, more accurate than what it replaces. Also, there is no credible evidence that Letson is lying about having treated Kerry or is to be disbeleived out of hand due to alleged bias. Also, as I have copiously explained previously, I feel the evidence clearly would support explicitly calling the injury "minor" as in "minor wound", but I am not trying to force that here.
James, other than arguing your point, you have supplied no data or evidence about wounds per se, but I have (see previous talk, above). That evidence, in the form of a wound treatment guide, can now be found here (URL changed recently). The treatment Kerry received (by all accounts) makes clear that he received treatment for a "minor wound". And yet, the text I editing in recently has softened but is still is correct, more accurate (than what you now lobby for), is NPOV and fair to both sides:
James, you are again focusing unduly on the past edit war -won by your side by default, when I got booted for 3rr violations ("we should stick to the language that emerged from last year's wrangling"). This is espcially true, considering that the ArbComm made a specific finding about issues of the campaign intruding into this article. Need I remind you, that it was you (one whom the ArbComm addressed) and your cohorts that made the final decsion about the language you now insist on sticking with.
Plain and simply, I have compromised here and you have not. You need to do better than that or rightly speaking, you are not enagaging in Wikipedia:Negotiation or Consensus decision-making.
Suffice it to say, I contend that there is residual POV bias in this article and I further contend that you are arguing against various changes that would remedy this. For these reasons, I am not persuaded by your plea to "stick to the language that emerged".
Again I will repeat: JamesMLane and others here do not have authority to enforce stasis or otherwise "freeze" any section of this article. As for "false impression(s)", the copious amounts of personal minutiae about Kerry detailed in this article do indeed give the false impression that we as readers really ought to be sweet on Kerry, our patootie [6]. The entire article is too hagiographic and is way POV balanced in favor of Kerry.
James's ceaseless efforts to screen out all non-flattering facts, regardless of how tactfully conveyed, does not improve the article. On the other hand, this edit of mine does and I am going to do my best to see to it that the true words of "superficial" and "small" stay in. You are welcome to try incorporating those words into a sentence you'd prefer, but you have not made the case for keeping them out. Rex071404 216.153.214.94 23:47, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
James, thank you for your well reasoned and polite response. Though I disagree with some of your points, I appreciate that you are dialogging. As for the section under discussion, as of today, here is how it reads:
As it stands now, this section is fair to both points of view and there is no need to chop this apart towards shunting details to any subsidiary "controversy page". In brief, it outlines the core of this issue in a NPOV manner, with details that are accurate enough to be fair to both views.
Are you willing to accept this section as it is now, or not? If not, then please tell me line by line, why not. Thanks. Rex071404 216.153.214.94 03:19, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
Oh and since Gamaliel want to stuff the past ArbComm issues in my face, let's not forget what one of the key ArbComm findings was "User Rex071404 and others including the complaining witnesses, Neutrality, Wolfman, and JamesMLane have in the heat of the US Presidential election focused on the article John Kerry and carried the issues of the campaign into the encyclopedia article in detail.". [8]
During the night of December 2, 1968 and early morning of December 3, Kerry was in charge of a small boat operating in and around a peninsula north of Cam Ranh Bay together with a Swift boat (PCF-60). Kerry's boat surprised a group of men unloading sampans at a river crossing, who began to run. When the men refused to obey an order to stop running, Kerry and his crew of two enlisted men opened fire, destroyed the sampans, and took off. During this encounter, Kerry suffered a shrapnel wound in the left arm above the elbow. The shrapnel was removed and the wound was treated with bacitracin antibiotic and bandaged. Kerry returned to duty the next day on a regular Swift boat patrol. Kerry was awarded his first Purple Heart for this injury.
You have got to be kidding. I have been trying to trim this article for weeks and have been block at every turn. Even the smallest minutiae is re-inserted (ie: "favorite cookies"). The spin-off I did makes perfect sense. This discussion regarding 1st injury/Letson needs to move to: Talk:John Kerry's military service and I am copying it there now. Rex071404 216.153.214.94 09:13, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
I converted the inline external links to references but the links to kerryvietnam.org do not sound like RS to me. RJFJR ( talk) 23:57, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
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(copied from Talk:John Kerry 09:13, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
A direct quote by the Dr. who treated Kerry uses the same three words I use: "injury", "superficial" and "small". Rex071404 216.153.214.94 00:07, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
Read Letson's statement again:
What I saw was a small piece of metal sticking very superficially in the skin of Kerry's arm. The metal fragment measured about 1 cm. in length and was about 2 or 3 mm in diameter. It certainly did not look like a round from a rifle.
I simply removed the piece of metal by lifting it out of the skin with forceps. I doubt that it penetrated more than 3 or 4 mm. It did not require probing to find it, did not require any anesthesia to remove it, and did not require any sutures to close the wound.
The wound was covered with a bandaid."
He uses the word "injury" 1st and "wound" last - so do I.
Now, as to the use of "superficial", I use that as I did because Letson said:
He is clealry stating that the injury was superficial.
Using the FACTS providd by Letson, I have assembled a non-POV sentence which uses all four key words and does not distort their meaning:
"Kerry suffered a superficial injury from a small piece of shrapnel in the left arm above the elbow [2]. The shrapnel was removed and the wounded area was treated with bacitracin antibiotic and bandaged."
Other than to re-tweak it as:
"Kerry suffered a superficial injury from a small piece of shrapnel in the left arm above the elbow [3]. The shrapnel was removed and the wound was treated with bacitracin antibiotic and bandaged."
I see no justifications for changing these two sentences. Rex071404 216.153.214.94 00:26, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
The quote from Dr. Leston and the words he used, are in not and of themselves "controversial". Rather, the "controversy" attaches to those words by various editors here who insist on inserting sentences such as "Kerry's opponents, including the Swift Boat Veterans For Truth, have contended that this wound was too minor to merit a Purple Heart and that Kerry used this injury as his first of three to game the system and obtain early release from his Vietnam service. However, Kerry's wound did qualify him for consideration under Naval guidelines for a purple heart, and a subsequent Naval review reiterated their position that the purple heart was correctly given".
Owing to the fact that this text which I edited in...
...uses the EXACT WORDS that Dr. Letson used and because it's also carefully written, it's not in and of itself a controversy. If you insist on calling it such, we'll end up at the point where no text referring to the 1st injury/wound is allowed in, as every variant could be deemed "controversy". See Talk:Stolen_Honor#Per se controversy articles and associate sections on that talk page for related explanations. Rex071404 216.153.214.94 04:24, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
I disagree with James's inferrence that the article has an enforced stasis regarding this section of text. I came up with phrasing which I think is NPOV towards both sides and is in fact, more accurate than what it replaces. Also, there is no credible evidence that Letson is lying about having treated Kerry or is to be disbeleived out of hand due to alleged bias. Also, as I have copiously explained previously, I feel the evidence clearly would support explicitly calling the injury "minor" as in "minor wound", but I am not trying to force that here.
James, other than arguing your point, you have supplied no data or evidence about wounds per se, but I have (see previous talk, above). That evidence, in the form of a wound treatment guide, can now be found here (URL changed recently). The treatment Kerry received (by all accounts) makes clear that he received treatment for a "minor wound". And yet, the text I editing in recently has softened but is still is correct, more accurate (than what you now lobby for), is NPOV and fair to both sides:
James, you are again focusing unduly on the past edit war -won by your side by default, when I got booted for 3rr violations ("we should stick to the language that emerged from last year's wrangling"). This is espcially true, considering that the ArbComm made a specific finding about issues of the campaign intruding into this article. Need I remind you, that it was you (one whom the ArbComm addressed) and your cohorts that made the final decsion about the language you now insist on sticking with.
Plain and simply, I have compromised here and you have not. You need to do better than that or rightly speaking, you are not enagaging in Wikipedia:Negotiation or Consensus decision-making.
Suffice it to say, I contend that there is residual POV bias in this article and I further contend that you are arguing against various changes that would remedy this. For these reasons, I am not persuaded by your plea to "stick to the language that emerged".
Again I will repeat: JamesMLane and others here do not have authority to enforce stasis or otherwise "freeze" any section of this article. As for "false impression(s)", the copious amounts of personal minutiae about Kerry detailed in this article do indeed give the false impression that we as readers really ought to be sweet on Kerry, our patootie [6]. The entire article is too hagiographic and is way POV balanced in favor of Kerry.
James's ceaseless efforts to screen out all non-flattering facts, regardless of how tactfully conveyed, does not improve the article. On the other hand, this edit of mine does and I am going to do my best to see to it that the true words of "superficial" and "small" stay in. You are welcome to try incorporating those words into a sentence you'd prefer, but you have not made the case for keeping them out. Rex071404 216.153.214.94 23:47, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
James, thank you for your well reasoned and polite response. Though I disagree with some of your points, I appreciate that you are dialogging. As for the section under discussion, as of today, here is how it reads:
As it stands now, this section is fair to both points of view and there is no need to chop this apart towards shunting details to any subsidiary "controversy page". In brief, it outlines the core of this issue in a NPOV manner, with details that are accurate enough to be fair to both views.
Are you willing to accept this section as it is now, or not? If not, then please tell me line by line, why not. Thanks. Rex071404 216.153.214.94 03:19, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
Oh and since Gamaliel want to stuff the past ArbComm issues in my face, let's not forget what one of the key ArbComm findings was "User Rex071404 and others including the complaining witnesses, Neutrality, Wolfman, and JamesMLane have in the heat of the US Presidential election focused on the article John Kerry and carried the issues of the campaign into the encyclopedia article in detail.". [8]
During the night of December 2, 1968 and early morning of December 3, Kerry was in charge of a small boat operating in and around a peninsula north of Cam Ranh Bay together with a Swift boat (PCF-60). Kerry's boat surprised a group of men unloading sampans at a river crossing, who began to run. When the men refused to obey an order to stop running, Kerry and his crew of two enlisted men opened fire, destroyed the sampans, and took off. During this encounter, Kerry suffered a shrapnel wound in the left arm above the elbow. The shrapnel was removed and the wound was treated with bacitracin antibiotic and bandaged. Kerry returned to duty the next day on a regular Swift boat patrol. Kerry was awarded his first Purple Heart for this injury.
You have got to be kidding. I have been trying to trim this article for weeks and have been block at every turn. Even the smallest minutiae is re-inserted (ie: "favorite cookies"). The spin-off I did makes perfect sense. This discussion regarding 1st injury/Letson needs to move to: Talk:John Kerry's military service and I am copying it there now. Rex071404 216.153.214.94 09:13, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
I converted the inline external links to references but the links to kerryvietnam.org do not sound like RS to me. RJFJR ( talk) 23:57, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
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