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SNSAnchor, I have two complaints on your last edit. ontheissues.org is a nice compilation of sources. However, best practices is to use primary sources rather than secondary sources. Could you find the primary source? My other complaint is that the McCain-Kennedy bill came up once in 2006 and twice in 2007. It is not at all clear which time you mean that Huckabee opposed the bill. I have encountered no source which suggests he opposed the bill in 2006. Jmegill 00:55, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
The campaign section needs to be a short summary, not a list of everything that's happened in the campaign, since there is now a separate article for that.-- Gloriamarie 22:40, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
This section reads like a National Review article, assuming that the interest of the reader is in discovering if he adhered to a tax cutting political line. Indeed it only cites anti-tax foundations and arch conservative political rags. I myself am more interested in his fiscal policies--that is, on whom did he raise taxes, on whom did he lower them, and what are his proposals as president, than I am in what the National Review of some other equivalent source thinks about whether he lived up to their standards. 190.10.54.145 ( talk) 06:20, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Reading through this section I noted that it did not include information that I've heard regarding the 65.3 figure. I remember someone saying (perhaps Huckabee) that almost all this was Federal programs that he had no control over and that his figure was closer to 2% or something. Trying to find where I read/heard it but thought I would post here.
Morphh
(talk)
13:14, 09 September 2007 (UTC)
This is a very important issue. What's his position on it? Please includemain article w/ references. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.249.64.128 ( talk) 16:25, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Huckabee is a very strong advocate of the Fair Tax. I think it should be mentioned under political positions. Brian Pearson 00:27, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Huckabee does not believe the theory of evolution (which, I suppose, refers to the modern synthesis), and he is on record in the 3rd source on the detailed issues page and in a Bill Maher Youtube mini-interview for taking the position that science teachers should determine the curriculum of science courses. This is quite far from "expressed support for allowing creationism and intelligent design in school science classes along with evolution" since there are very few science teachers who take creationism and ID seriously. Is there a source for the latter statement, or is this just a mis-characterization? Mistercupcake 04:29, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
Huckabee: Are you saying some students are not getting exposure to the various theories of creation?
Student (stunned): No, of evol … well, of evolution specifically. It’s a biological study that should be educated [taught], but is generally not.
Moderator: Schools are dodging Darwinism? Is that what you … ?
Student: Yes.
Huckabee: I’m not familiar that they’re dodging it. Maybe they are. But I think schools also ought to be fair to all views. Because, frankly, Darwinism is not an established scientific fact. It is a theory of evolution, that’s why it’s called the theory of evolution. And I think that what I’d be concerned with is that it should be taught as one of the views that’s held by people. But it’s not the only view that’s held. And any time you teach one thing as that it’s the only thing, then I think that has a real problem to it. source: http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/rncse_content/vol25/8118_is_evolution_arkansas39s_h_12_30_1899.asp
From the same TV show in 2003
Student: Goal 2.04 of the Biology Benchmark Goals published by the Arkansas Department of Education in May of 2002 indicates that students should examine the development of the theory of biological evolution. Yet many students in Arkansas that I have met … have not been exposed to this idea. What do you believe is the appropriate role of the state in mandating the curriculum of a given course?
Huckabee: I think that the state ought to give students exposure to all points of view. And I would hope that that would be all points of view and not only evolution. I think that they also should be given exposure to the theories not only of evolution but to the basis of those who believe in creationism … source: http://www.arktimes.com/Articles/print.aspx?ArticleID=e7a0f0e1-ecfd-4fc8-bca4-b9997c912a91
So, Mistercupcake, the previous statement about Huckabee is accurate. Jmegill 05:23, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
Mistercupcake, I object to saying that Huckabee is "taking the position that science teachers should determine the curriculum of science courses". It is not supported by your sources. Huckabee's position is that a belief in evolution does not matter for being President. In the Saint Anselm Debate, Huckabee said, "I don't think knowing that [if evolution is true] would make me a better or a worse president." I went and looked up the transcript for the Bill Maher interview that you mentioned. source is here http://www.billmaher.com/?page_id=200 Huckabee takes the position that asking questions about evolution does not matter for president. Here is what they say about evolution MAHER: Now, in one of the debates, the question was asked of the ten Republicans on the stage, “How many of you do not believe in evolution?” And three candidates raised their hand. You were one of them.
HUCKABEE: Mm-hmm. [affirmative]
MAHER: So…[laughter]…you don’t really believe in evolution?
HUCKABEE: Bill, I believe God created the heavens and the earth. Now, how He did it, I don’t know. I thought the question was utterly silly to be asked in a presidential debate. None of us are running in order to be an eighth grade science teacher. We’re running to be president. It’s really not, to me, a proper yes-or-no question. But if he meant by that, do I believe that it is all about just random selection and that it just happened without any design – designer and anybody who was behind it – no, I don’t believe that. I think there was a God behind it. And that was what I was trying to say. And I still believe that.
MAHER: But evolution is about, like, we came from the monkeys.
HUCKABEE: Yes.
MAHER: You don’t agree with that?
HUCKABEE: I don’t know. I mean, if God six days—
MAHER: [overlapping] Come on, have you ever seen a monkey? [laughter]
HUCKABEE: [overlapping]—or if he took six million years – sure, I have, you know. And, in fact, if evolution—
MAHER: [overlapping] How can you look in a monkey’s eye and want to start a monkey fight like Michael Vick? No.
HUCKABEE: No, I don’t think so. You know, the point is that the whole process of these debates were more like a game show than it was a serious discourse of political discussion. And the yes-and-no, raise-your-hands, that’s nonsense. If you want to have an honest political discussion, we ought to have it. But the questions sometimes were posed, were a little silly.
MAHER: [overlapping] But, why shouldn’t it be part of a political discussion? If someone believes that the earth is 6,000 years old when every scientist in the world tells us it’s billions of years old, why shouldn’t I take that into account when I’m assessing the rationality of someone I’m going to put into the highest office in the land? [applause] [cheers]
HUCKABEE: Well, I think the point, though, Bill, is that we really don’t know. And that’s my whole point. I don’t believe that it matters how long it took. It may have been six billion years. That’s how God may have done it. I just want to make sure that if I’m put on the spot, do I believe that it’s a basically just sort of an accident that all of this happened, this wonderful creation of ours, or do I believe there was a creator behind it – look, I’m going to go on the side that there’s a creator behind it.
MAHER: Okay. Speaking of creators—
HUCKABEE: Yes.
MAHER: [overlapping]—I know you’ve said that Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton – you’ve commented on their marriage and said, you know, a lot of people in my party have a lot of these values and judgments they make, but they, despite their marital difficulties, kept their marriage together, and that that was a good thing.
HUCKABEE: That’s right. [scattered applause]
Mistercupcake, I think the original sentence better described Huckabee's views on the subject. Unfortunately, it was not supported by references to his views. To be fair, Huckabee's argument is that evolution is not relevant to being President. Thus, I will undo your edits, add in references and also add "Huckabee's position is that belief in evolution is not relevant to being President." referenced on the Bill Maher show transcript. Jmegill 05:59, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
JRG39402:
http://www.mikehuckabee.com/?FuseAction=Newsroom.PressRelease&ID=406 needs to be taken into consideration on the Guantanamo Bay Detention Facility issue. Currently the page is either inaccurate or very lacking in his description on this issue. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
66.0.164.35 (
talk)
17:40, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
I saw this and thought someone might want to include some points. http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=57708 Morphh (talk) 2:37, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
On Tuesday September 25, Jon Stewart made fun of Huckabee's (and also Giuliani and Thompson) comments before the NRA.. Huckabee said, "I'm pretty sure that they will be duck hunting in heaven" and "Somehow the angels took that bullet and went right to the antelope and my hunt was over in a wonderful way" Clip Here: http://rackjite.com/archives/640-Jon-Stewart-Does-the-NRA-and-Looneytoon-Mike-Huckabee.html Several anonymous editors have attempted to alter the page to reflect Huckabee's comments. I was not aware that Huckabee had actually made the comments and thought it was some kind of joke. I wonder if the comments merit a mention either on the Huckabee page or the campaign page. The larger issue is Stewart is calling attention to the way Huckabee approaches religion. While Stewart and Comedy Central are apathetic or hostile to Christianity (and gun rights), Huckabee's comments infuse religious beliefs in everyday life in a manner uncommon in many circles. Huckabee's rejection of evolution, support for Creationism/ID, support for ArKids and opposition to Jim Holt's immigration bill appear to be related to Huckabee's religious views. What information is out there that describes Huckabee's religious views? Jmegill 01:00, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Where should Mike Huckabees nicknames go such as Tax Hike Mike,. Also where should the mention that Gov. Huckabee was number 6 on Judicial Watch's "Top 10 most wanted corrupt politicians" go.
This article is starting to look out of whack. The criticism section (many of them very minor criticisms) is getting to big to be on the main Mike Huckabee page ( I mean when its as long as his bio, its going a little over the top). Like other presidential candidates pages have done, I think it is time to make it into a subpage in titled, Criticism of Mike Huckabee. Right now it looks like a negative ad by another campaign :). -- Gnnnews2 01:53, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Something to work on... the paragraphs in this article need a bit of work. Some are one or two sentences that might combined well with others and some look like 20 sentences that need to be split up (like illegal immigration). Morphh (talk) 13:21, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Material on clemency concerns. I am not sure how to best summarize these concerns. I am also not sure how to work it in, because Wayne Dumond would be a special case of clemency concerns. http://www.petitiononline.com/792004/petition.html and http://www.arkansasleader.com/frontstories/st_07_14_04/clemency.html and http://web.archive.org/web/20060815191208/http://mikehuckabee.com/recent_news.htm#Governor%20gave%20clemency%20to%20man%20who%20made%20him%20Governor and http://www.arkansasnews.com/archive/2004/03/11/News/143271.html and http://www.arkansasnews.com/archive/2004/02/26/News/131977.html and http://www.arkansasnews.com/archive/2004/04/14/News/180347.html and http://www.arkansasnews.com/archive/2004/02/20/News/127410.html and http://www.arkansasnews.com/archive/2004/04/21/News/185658.html and http://www.arkansasnews.com/archive/2004/01/23/News/109327.html and http://www.arkansasnews.com/archive/2004/01/08/JohnBrummett/104159.html and http://www.arkansasnews.com/archive/2004/01/24/News/109466.html http://www.arkansasleader.com/frontstories/st_07_07_04/huckabee3.html http://www.arkansasleader.com/frontstories/st_06_23_04/huckabee.html http://www.arkansasleader.com/frontstories/st_06_30_04/huckabee2.html http://www.arkansasleader.com/frontstories/st_07_14_04/huckabee4.html http://www.kfsm.com/Global/story.asp?S=2019803 http://web.archive.org/web/20041210185701/www.bentoncourier.com/articles/2004/07/17/news/43onews.txt http://web.archive.org/web/20041210185124/www.bentoncourier.com/articles/2004/07/17/news/43hnews.txt http://www.todaysthv.com/news/news.aspx?storyid=10496 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jmegill ( talk • contribs) 05:51, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Material on the Brock vs Huckabee lawsuit. http://www.rcfp.org/news/2003/0717brockv.html http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/news.aspx?id=11712 http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=16126 http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=16106 http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=16132 http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=16313 http://web.archive.org/web/20020802061334/www.arkansasnews.com/275422933732023.bsp http://web.archive.org/web/20020802153110/todaysthv.com/news/news.asp?storyid=3875 http://web.archive.org/web/20020609063946/www.arktimes.com/max/050302brantley.html http://web.archive.org/web/20031008160334/www.swtimes.com/archive/2002/April/24/news/huckabee_aide.html http://web.archive.org/web/20030802041832/www.arktimes.com/dumas/050302dumas.html Jmegill 02:08, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
The only reason this section is on the page is because it is weirdly self-referential. It is not criticism of Mike Huckabee. It may have nothing to do with Mike Huckabee except that Huckabee's page was the object of the actions. I think that the section should be removed. Jmegill 02:21, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
The views of critics should be represented if they are relevant to the subject's notability and can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to side with the critics; rather, it needs to be presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone. Be careful not to give a disproportionate amount of space to critics, to avoid the effect of representing a minority view as if it were the majority one. If the criticism represents the views of a tiny minority, it has no place in the article. Content should be sourced to reliable sources and should be about the subject of the article specifically. Beware of claims that rely on guilt by association. Editors should also be on the lookout for biased or malicious content about living persons. If someone appears to be pushing an agenda or a biased point of view, insist on reliable third-party published sources and a clear demonstration of relevance to the person's notability. — BLP Criticism
Huckabee was Governor for 10.5 years. It is impossible to hold any political job that long and avoid criticism. The reason why the criticism section is proportionally big is because it contains not only criticism of Huckabee, but also Huckabee's response to such criticism. The only subsection of the criticism section which does not contain a Huckabee response is the Janet Huckabee 2002 Secretary of State Run. Not surprisingly, that subsection is also the shortest subsection. Huckabee does get to defend himself in the criticism section. The article structure does not violate NPOV. That said, if you want to remove material from the criticism section, the place to start is with "Controversial comments". I do not think that these comments have much weight. In my opinion, the comments are failed jokes. I have been doing my part to add material to other parts of the Huckabee article to round it out. I have also held back on adding material to the criticism section. See Brock vs. Huckabee and Clemency above in the discussion.
Jmegill
04:34, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
This is an excerpt from the Scott Parks 1997 article: "During his presidency from 1989 to 1991, Southern Baptists were feuding at the state and national level. The conservative wing believed in a literal interpretation of the Bible. Moderates believed some Bible stories were simply metaphors and parables. Mr. Huckabee counted himself in the conservative camp, a believer in Biblical inerrancy. "If you can accept the resurrection, that is the ultimate miracle," he said. "If you can buy that one, the others are easy: turning water into wine and such."" Jmegill 19:15, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Are there are links to give credibility to references 10 and 11 in "The Commercial Appeal"? I'm still looking but can't find them.....thanks Strunke 22:38, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Anonymous editor 75.37.206.111 returned redacted material to the article. My position on "Comments" is that they are failed jokes or just Huckabee's style of speaking. They lack notability. I question whether they merit an extended mention under Controversy. I liked how Morphh summarized with a single sentence with many footnotes. I imagine that that going forward there will be many more statements that attract attention. Similar comments already include Huckabee's remarks to the NRA which Jon Stewart commented on and Huckabee's calling Arkansas a "banana republic" on a New York radio station. It will be easy just to add footnote references to Morphh's summary sentence, rather than giving each one its own mention. (Which would make the Controversy section proportionally big) Just two days ago, Huckabee spoke of the "Holocaust of abortion". As for the other section, Gift Registry, the reference links were also included in the summary sentence provided by Morphh. I am neutral on whether Gift Registry should have its own subsection. But I would like to see 75.37.206.111 justify why both subsections merit an extended mention. I am content with the other four subsections. Jmegill 03:08, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Title: Public Comments (these are given when publicly speaking, and should reflect that these are open quotes made in public, and thus not some secretive back door slurring of groups and people)
Please be aware of the following: User_talk:Shogun108#Mike_Huckabee. Shogun108 feels that any 'controversies' section is inherently evil, and should be folded into the political positions section. Although I tried to explain that some controversies would be orphaned and lost, he responded with policy wonking about NPOV. He's not interested in actually explaining, beyond citing NPOV, and has stated an intent to go ahead and make it his way. IN the face of requests to talk things out, such actions would not be BOLD. I invite others to simliarly appeal to him to use talk instead of make radical changes to the article. ThuranX 04:50, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
I simply believe that the article be reworked. Do not remove any of the "controversies." According to Wikipedia's guidelines:
"The neutral point of view is a means of dealing with conflicting verifiable perspectives on a topic as evidenced by reliable sources. The policy requires that where multiple or conflicting perspectives exist within a topic each should be presented fairly. None of the views should be given undue weight or asserted as being judged as "the truth", in order that the various significant published viewpoints are made accessible to the reader, not just the most popular one. It should also not be asserted that the most popular view, or some sort of intermediate view among the different views, is the correct one to the extent that other views are mentioned only pejoratively. Readers should be allowed to form their own opinions."
Readers simply cannot do this with the current state of the article. I also ask that your own bias does not affect NPOV of an article. Details of how it will be edited will be provided in a few days once I figure out a way to best incorporate both points of view. But please judge this article within a NPOV. It distresses me when bias can leak onto an advertised unbiased site. I do not want to delete his criticism I simply would like to have the chance of cleaning up redundant information in that section and either combining it with his "Political Positions," Which I think NEEDs to be expanded, or presenting two views in a manner without bias. I know who does this stuff to Huckabee and I'm not sure they would like it if their candidate was slandered on his own page no I'd imagine not. So why does their view take precedence over pro-Huckabee supporters? Sorry I'm rambling Expect me to chime in later with a proposed fix to this problem. Shogun108 04:56, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Look at the word "Claims" What is it doing there? It is discrediting the statement Huckabee made. Use of words in this manner is a promotion of bias. Another:Huckabee claims to have cut taxes while governor, saving Arkansas' citizens close to $380 million.
But his view is never explained in the article at all! It is said that it exists, but it is not given. Illegal immigration This entire section is not a controversy come to think of it the only true controversies he was involved in was the Dunlop Case and His wife's political race and maybe the wedding gifts. Anyway most of the info on his immigration points is old and it concludes without even addressing Huckabee's current beliefs etc. That shows no balance. When you look at the section about his public comments it does not address his response to the outcries.Huckabee has denied influencing the parole board in any way, but acknowledges some responsibility for signing Dumond's parole.[citation needed] His full disclosure of the incident is described in his book From Hope to Higher Ground.
A contentious speech act; a dispute where there is strong disagreement.
Jmegill: Although the question of moving the controversy section was under question in this discussion page, a course of action was never agreed upon. Therefore this current discussion is justified. The article, as it is, is way out of balanced. The section on Huckabee's tenure as governor is as long as the "Controversy" section! Also in the controversy section, there is no need to have his Fiscal Policy and Immigrations Stance as a controversy. Huckabee fiscal policy is a matter dealing with policy not a controversy regarding him, there totally different.
In order to make this article balanced, we should:
-- SNSAnchor 14:13, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
This is from [1] I also you look into "bias in Word Choice." A subtle change can create glaring bias. If worst comes to worst I suggest that you remove bias sources if you refuse to create unbiased articles besides news articles do not have to be quoted in their rhetoric. Citation means you got the information from that site. It does not mean that you should mirror the article you cited. That is part of the problem. It is very unprofessional to do such things... Shogun108 21:21, 24 October 2007 (UTC)As well, each individual who reports or writes the news has to work hard to guard against his or her own opinions. These opinions can become media bias simply through word choice or inflections and tone of voice when delivering news.
It has been brought to my attention that this page is the focus of an organized effort to slant the article pro-huckabee.[1] These editors claim they are making edits for NPOV, but in reality they are just trying to cover up all bad things of the candidate they support. [1] Byates5637 13:23, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
I have submitted a WP:COI/N report, it might be bounced to WP:BIO/N, dunno. ThuranX 20:33, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
The report has been taken to WP:BIO/N. Further, the off wiki group is now resorting to off-site personal attacks, and here, they're attempting to extort services to leave certain areas of this article alone. I'm going to give it a little time more at WP:BIO, then take this mess to AN/I for blocks and protections. ThuranX 22:14, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Today's edits show clearly that more SPA editors are coming here from Hucksarmy to whitewash the article. I will again go to BIO/N, but they're incredibly slow there. ThuranX 23:39, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
from the text i submitted when requesting temporary unprotection of Fred Thompson:
with the re-inclusion of huckabee's campaign logo, his is now the only presidential candidate biography that has such a logo. i assert that either all candidate bio's have such logos, or none. the latter is better, per the justification above. Anastrophe 18:02, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Morphh (talk) 2:15, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
While I don't concur that campaign logos are necessarily POV, in fact, I think they are a part of the history of the individual or campaign. Nonetheless, I will personally abide by by all the current candidates of all the various parties having them included or all of them being removed ... but not some of either. ThuranX, I noticed you removed Hillary's campaign logo, so I won't return Mike's if it says that way. -- Mactographer 21:48, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Shogun108, you should discuss why you are changing the order of the article. You should make the case why one order of the article is better than another order of the article. If not, then I may just change it back to how it was before. Jmegill 17:17, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
In 1999-2000, Huckabee was in conflict with the Clinton Administration over whether kids who qualified for Arkids A (then called Medicaid) should be funneled into Arkids A rather than Arkids B.(then called Arkids First). Huckabee stated that some people refused to enroll in Medicaid out of pride, but would enroll in Arkids First because it wasn't called Medicaid. Arkids A had no co-pay, while Arkids B did have co-pays and higher income levels for eligibility. Are there other reasons WHY Huckabee challenged the Clinton Administration over this? Jmegill 22:53, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
I object Bryan Derksen's edit to the Dumond subsection. He changed "Dumond had been attacked and castrated prior to his trial for the rape" to "Dumond was castrated prior to his trial; he claimed that he was attacked by two men in his home (though district prosecutor Gene Raff suggested it was a case of self-mutilation and a urologist who'd studied the topic told the Forrest City Times-Herald that self-mutilation isn't that rare among psychologically disturbed sex offenders)." Comments on how and why Dumond was castrated are tangential to an article about Mike Huckabee. The level of detail is not necessary to understanding the controversy. Jmegill 01:37, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
The Dumond section states that full disclosure from Huckabee can be found in his book. According to a new article citing evidence provided by a former Huckabee aide and published by the Huffington Post, however, that notion simply is not true. In fact, the former governor received written letters from former Dumond rape victims pleading for his continued imprisonment and warning of his likelihood to not only rape again, but to kill the victims. Apparently, Huckabee chose politics over the private words of rape victims, and two more heinous crimes were commited as a direct result. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.142.186.115 ( talk) 06:00, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
"Full disclosure"? How is that neutral? As the previous post states, it is a lie. I'm not going to direct you to other sources since I'm tired of Wikifascists would appoint themselves the guardians of the articles.
Walter E. Kurtz, USA (Retd.) (
talk)
09:33, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
I object to the last two edits by SNSAnchor. The addition of the phrase "The same year, Huckabee was named “Friend of a Taxpayer” by American for Tax Reform (ATR) for his cut in statewide spending." should be put with Fiscal Record subsection, not under the first term subsection. This is because it more logically goes with a discussion of his fiscal record. The second to last edit has a couple of problems. The way it was edited the structure of the edit reads 1.) Huckabee's campaign talking points 2.) Fiscal Criticism 3. Repeats Huckabee's campaign talking points. Thus, the edit carries redundant sentences. The first sentence "Huckabee cut taxes over ninety times while governor,..." is redundant with "Huckabee's campaign has countered these arguments by saying that Huckabee cut taxes 94 times including signing the first broad-based tax cut in the history of the state". Jmegill 04:25, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
The edit on Huckabee's first term is not supported by the source. The bond issue vote happened on June 15, 1999. The vote passed 80-20. Huckabee signed the bill two months earlier on April 1, 1999. Taxes went up immediately upon signing the bill. Now, logically, how can 80% of the state support a tax increase two months before they voted on it? The source clearly states that the bond vote does not affect the tax increases. The bond vote is only on whether Arkansas issues bonds to speed up road repair or uses the tax increase to finance road repair on a pay as you go basis. The source is copyrighted material which I paid for from a newspaper archive, but I am more than willing to email anybody who asks for the full article in question if they have any doubts about it. I emailed the full article in question on September 3 to the editor in question. The second edit "because of previous years of mismanagement" is POV and will be removed. The Jim Cooper quote should be place in the fiscal record subsection since it is dated Oct. 13, 2007 and is designed to counter criticism. Jmegill 20:13, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Why isn't there an Español link in the "In other languages" box?? I found an article at es.wikipedia.org, so does someone know how to get it linked here?? 67.149.116.181 —Preceding comment was added at 15:58, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Information from the campaign or candidate should be sourced as coming from the campaign or candidate. Information which comes from a reliable third party source can be stated as fact. This is my reasoning for the last revert. Jmegill 15:43, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
I am not sure that Huckabee has an official campaign forum. The candidate would want to control the message and allowing others to post in the forum would interfere with that. I have been unable to find a link to an official forum on Huckabee's campaign website. There are links to http://www.forum.hucksarmy.com/ but they are only found in the comments section of the blog. This does not suggest endorsement of the site. Reading the "About Us" section of Hucksarmy, they do not claim to be an official forum either. Whois for Hucksarmy returms Bill Goins, whose name appears nowhere on MikeHuckabee.com. Where is the evidence that Hucksarmy or MikeHuckabeeforums.com is an official forum? Jmegill 23:31, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone know where I can find the text of the actual Amendment one that was on the ballot in 1996? The Amendment established a minimum property tax of 25 mils (Arkansas property is assessed on 20% of the value). Supposedly, only 6 out of 311 school districts were below 25 mils. The Amendment received support from David Pryor, Mike Beebe, Ron Russell of the Ark Chamber of Commerce (and other business leaders) and was Jim Guy Tucker's idea. Huckabee didn't have to support it and the issue was contentious for Tucker. I am unclear over how redistributionist the formula was and whether this represented a significant change in terms of tax burden and also school expenditures. One source says, " All money raised by school taxes in 319 individual districts would have to come to Little Rock and be dispersed statewide. That way, the same amount of money would be spent on every child in public schools regardless of how rich or poor the child's district" and "a measure to redistribute local property tax money to equalize school funding statewide.". Also, "At its heart is a provision to remove constitutional restrictions on distributing local property tax proceeds statewide to even out big differences in education funding available to rich school districts and poor ones." Also, "The amendment requires that districts that bring in more money per student than specified in the funding formula send the extra money to the state for redistribution" Also, "It would require that all school districts earmark for the state an amount of money equal to the revenue generated by a 25-mill tax; the state would ensure that the money is distributed among the districts. The amendment would not force a tax increase in most school districts, and each district would keep any revenue it generates in excess of the state minimum. " A letter writer complains, "Amendment 1 means the end of local control. If it passes, Arkansas, like several other reform states, will begin an impossible fight to regain local control of their schools, lost when a state mandates "equalizing funding.""
The Alternatives mentioned to Amendment 1 were tax increases or a school consolidation program. (school consolidation did later end up happening, but Huckabee later ended up endorsing a plan of consolidation) The previous year, some persons had to pay a 10% income surcharge. I would appreciate any insight on this issue. Jmegill 03:46, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Although the section about Mr. Huckabee and his wife running on the same ticket may be an interesting piece of trivia, it hardly merits listing under the "controversy" section. Is it controversial for Mrs. Clinton to run for the same office her husband once held? Please.
I suggest the section either be removed or relocated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.135.30.198 ( talk) 21:21, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
I wanted to mention this on the talk page before I do this as perhaps a short discussion will make it unnecessary but I have discussed it in the past and the article continues to concern me. If we do submit this for request for comment, please don't take it as anything against the editors working to improve the article. Sometimes things just need a little more discussion from external sources to get us on the proper path (if any issue is found). Due to the sensitivity of BLP with regard to a U.S. presidential candidate, we need to be very cautious and make sure we're presenting the material in the most neutral way. My concerns are with the controversy section and issues with WP:BLP particularly regarding BLP criticism, NPOV article structure, and NPOV undue weight. When looking at the table of contents, the controversy overwhelms the article and gives undue weight to headers that do not reflect important areas to the subject's notability in comparison with the rest of the article structure. Take a look at the John Stossel article before and after, which underwent a similar process of BLP / article structure and undue weight changes. All the important content and criticism is still there but it is presented in a way that does not bias the article and puts it in context for the overall biography. I'm not sure how best to address it but I thought perhaps an RFC would get some opinions of other editors that are not as vested as our longtime editors and HucksArmy. The consensus my be no changes, and I can accept that, but I think we need to have more discussion for this high profile biography. Morphh (talk) 15:14, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Seems the RFC has done nothing and this is only getting worse. I've made a post to the BLP noticeboard to try and get this moving. This is getting too close to the primaries to not do something quickly. Morphh (talk) 21:39, 03 December 2007 (UTC)
Link [3] Brian Pearson 01:12, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
I removed this from the main article for some discussion. The only thing here that makes this anything to consider is the last statement, which links to a self described liberal blog. I don't see that the statement that "some political commentators to cry foul" is supported in the article. This is not a reliable source and the accusation could be very close to libelous. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid; it is not our job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives. Morphh (talk) 15:53, 04 December 2007 (UTC)
Shortly before announcing his candidacy for the President of the United States, Huckabee ordered that the drives of 83 personal computers and 4 servers be destroyed during his transition phase in leaving office. According to Claire Bailey, director of the Arkansas Department of Information Systems, the governor’s office chose a combination of writing over the data and destroying the hard drives. [1] This controversial move has led some political commentators to cry foul, as the measures he took seem excessive unless he had something to hide. [2]
Jloc1210 ( talk) 15:50, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
This is not a useful heading - I see exactly one award in there, and almost no praise. I'm not even sure what "themes" means - another version of "political positions", perhaps? And I think controversies are best handled when integrated into the appropriate section of the article, as has been done for Hillary Rodham Clinton and others. The section's focus is not at all clear and has no analogues that I can think of in other biographies - seems to be a catch-all section. So I would break it up and move the parts as follows: create a "personal image" section or some name like that (health advocacy, gift registry, public comments and any other things about his personal image); appropriate governorship term (fiscal record, Wayne Dumond, Janet Huckabee/Secy of State}; political positions - which would be much better rendered not as a list (illegal immigration). I'm willing to do the work, but wanted to raise it here rather than waste my time. But I think this section has to change. Tvoz | talk 22:12, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
After reading the entire page, I'm left with the feeling that I just read a campaign brochure for Huckabee. This is a highly-biased entry with barely a mention of Huckabee's many scandals while governor or of his borderline legal/illegal acceptance of "gifts" similar to those received from this Baptist congregations.
I had hoped to read a balanced article displaying both his successes and failures but mostly read a litany of great accomplishments. Gee, he's closer to being godlike than I knew. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.178.38.95 ( talk) 06:32, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
How about this? (Includes primary sources) http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/12/05/exclusive-the-complete-h_n_75373.html Brian, 12/7/07 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.67.236.132 ( talk) 17:05, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
As Governor of Arkansas Huckabee had many controversial articles written about him. They are documented in the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette and Arkansas Times. I am wondering why many of those are not covered in this bio as they would give a more balanced view of his time in office. One in particular occurred early in his career, "Huckabee tapped mansion account for himself," by Arkansas Times [4]. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arkansastexas ( talk • contribs) 02:18, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
I don't know about the article itself, but what was wrong with the original photo? The full-body shot in front of the flag makes him look like a rock star or something. Narco ( talk) 03:25, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
The Image does not violate any Wikipedia rules and should have never been removed. Rtr10 —Preceding comment was added at 21:26, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
Under "Political Positions" article states "Huckabee supports murder and is a hunter" while the reference used shows that Mike Huckabee is a hunter (as stated), supports 2nd amendment along the lines of NRA, and supports a law similar to the Florida "castle law" which "states that any person has the right to 'stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm.'" To call this 'murder' shows obvious bias against the position. Should be changed to state simply that he supports law similar to Florida "castle law" with brief summary of what that entails. Griff199 ( talk) 13:30, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
it may be a US article but not every one reading it is in the united states. User:Silverhorse —Preceding comment was added at 02:20, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
The controversy section has grown big enough to move to a separate page. If it is not Wikipedia would have a bias argument against it. Check out the status of all the other top tier Republican candidates:
Mike Huckabee: large controversy section on main article Rudy Giuliani: No controversy section Fred Thompson: Same size as Huckabee, but on its own page Mitt Romney: No controversy section John McCain: No controversy section
What do you think?-- SNSAnchor ( talk) 03:02, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was Merge the controversies article back into the primary biography article.
--
Yellowdesk (
talk)
23:18, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
I support merging
Mike Huckabee and
Mike Huckabee controversies to avoid POV fork.
Jmegill (
talk)
09:20, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Merge as guidelines WP:Criticism says "Don't make articles entirely devoted to criticism of a topic that has or should have its own Wikipedia article". Robneild ( talk) 11:26, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Merge. Shouldn't have been split out, one other article isn't much precedent. Leave it all here until a real consensus can be formed for a solution, and perhaps crosspost to the Election Wikiproject, as they may have already come up with a uniform system. This is a ridiculously fast moving set of efforts to mave his criticisms, in one form or another, to a second article. Al lot of it seems to be being done by people of the same mindset as the rest of HucksArmy. This has got to stop, Wikipedia has standards, as well as consensus, and the constant attacking of this page by a growing number of HA zealots is dragging page quality down. ThuranX ( talk) 15:20, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Done
Fireplace (
talk) 15:57, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Merge Re Controversies articles-- Philosophically, I am in favor of such articles. I don;t necessarily see a POV fork. People opposing the edits should just give their reasons for opposition. However, since the Hillary and Rudy ones have been taken down, I'd have to say, for consistency that this one on Huckabee could not endure.
Dogru144 (
talk)
21:22, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was to not split the governorship section into a stand-alone article as of December 12, 2007. Subject to revisiting as the article expands.
--
Yellowdesk (
talk)
03:55, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Summary Style is now appropriate for this biography article, which is overwhelmed by the section on the period as Governor, and which I promise will grow now that Huckabee is a contender. For an example, see this navigional template Mitt Romney's several articles: {{
Mitt Romney}}
--
Yellowdesk (
talk)
15:18, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
See:
Proposal: following the structure of another leading candidate article who was governor, using Wikipedia:Summary Style for the Biography, create an article named:
Comments
Many of the
Mike Huckabee references are in need of attention. There are many references that are blind and do not state the author, source, or date of retrieval, and this prevents the article from being even considered a
good article, let alone a
featured article
.
I reformated how the <ref> and </ref> tags related to the text so that they can be found with greater ease in the editing screen.
Here is what I suggest when people add a reference. The good result of this is that you can locate the end of any reference easily, since the closing </ref> is on the first column of an editing screeen. This should make it easier to add or edit the text of the article while noticing where the end and start of each reference is. And when there's more than one ref per paragraph, then on one line you'll see together on the same line, alone, </ref><ref> tags, showing more than one reference relates to that particular text of the article. Comments invited. --
Yellowdesk (
talk)
02:21, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
How the formatting was implemented:
some text at the end of the sentence.NOSPACE<ref>SPACE-NEWLINE
body of reference material hereSPACE-NEWLINE
</ref>SPACE-NEWLINE
Start of next sentence...
The result looks like this while editing:
some text at the end of the sentence.<ref>
body of reference material here
</ref>
Start of next sentence.
Moved this from the article. Another example of undue weight.. Come on.. AIDS statements? This is part of Huckabee's notability? This is part of the problem I have with "criticism" sections. We're going to get every little piece of criticism that anyone can form two sentences around. Also seems like a bit of original research structured in there. Morphh (talk) 3:02, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
In a 1992 statement he provided to the Associated Press, Huckabee advocated isolating AIDS patients from the general population. [3]
In 2007, Huckabee no longer advocates a quarantine, but he defended his earlier view, saying that in 1992 "there was still a great deal of, I think, uncertainty about just how widespread AIDS was, how it could be transmitted. So we know more now than we did in 1992, all of us do -- hopefully." [4] However, by 1992 it was well known that HIV/AIDS could not be spread by casual contact. [5] [3]
In the same statement, Huckabee also opposed increasing federal funding for HIV/AIDS research and suggested that Hollywood celebrities should provide additional funds instead. He said that "homosexuality is an aberrant, unnatural, and sinful lifestyle, and we now know it can pose a dangerous public health risk." [3]
Huckabee now supports additional funding for HIV/AIDS research, but his view that homosexuality is sinful and not normal has not changed. [4]
Discussion seems to have died down. I'm going to attempt a compromise solution by restoring the material under the "Political positions" heading, which seems to more clearly fall outside the "critical views" standard that Morphh is concerned about. Fireplace ( talk) 15:11, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Associated Press http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071208/ap_po/huckabee_aids -- Leladax ( talk) 12:48, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Besides being a poorly worded section title, I don't think this belongs here. This is the problem with a Controversy section. Should we have every newspaper article (in a British paper, no less) in which every candidate is criticized? No. The other topics (immigration, fiscal record) seem to have received pretty widespread coverage as compared to one article in the Guardian. Paisan30 ( talk) 15:20, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
---
There should be adequate mention of his promises to discourage and prevent dual-citizenship and to restrict the ability of US Citizens from voting in foreign elections. This could be a decisive factor for many potential voters. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ewindisch ( talk • contribs) 21:56, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
I ran across this link on a blog. Considering that Huckabee has a lot of support from homeschoolers, it begs the question what his record is on the question http://www.hslda.org/courtreport/v15n3/V15N3AR.asp?PrinterFriendly=True Any additional material out there? Jmegill ( talk) 04:46, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
From reading Huckabee's transcripts on Fox, I felt there was a disconnect from what is presentend in the article from the side of Huckabee. Could someone familar with the case and Huckabee's responce, fill in the gaps? Remember that we're not to take sides. Statements like "In fact, ..." and "Even before taking office, ..." have the perception of bias. Also, do we really need to know about his castration in this article - How is this relavant to Huckabee's handling? Morphh (talk) 17:00, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
The Dumond case should be a separate subsection - it's now included with fiscal management, and the story should be expanded. It would be helpful to show what he said before Dumond was released and his recent statements. The Four Deuces ( talk) 00:21, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Sorry. It was not a separate subsection when I read the article, and I see that the subsection was created Dec. 9th. Don't know why I missed it. -- The Four Deuces ( talk) 23:28, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
The following sourced and previously-published-on-wiki copy was deleted without good reason:
==Freeper Associations==
In January of 2001, the controversial conservative internet group Free Republic organized a "Free Republic Inaugural Gala and Count the Silverware Ball, with orchestral entertainment provided by the sitting governor of Arkansas (Gov. Mike Huckabee) and his band." [6] Among the attendees were James Golden (a.k.a., Bo Snerdly from The Rush Limbaugh Show, an early investor in Free Republic), and the Reverend Jesse Lee Peterson of B.O.N.D. [7]
In January 2005, Free Republic organized an unofficial Inaugural Ball at the Washington Plaza Hotel to celebrate the reelection of President Bush and Vice President Richard Cheney and to honor the men and women serving in the United States Armed Forces. The event was promoted to feature then Arkansas Republican Governor Mike Huckabee and his rock and roll band called Capitol Offense. [8] [9] [10]
The fact that he has a band is important enough to make the lead paragraph. If that band only played for the ACLU or the KKK, wouldn't that be significant? Here he is playing for a politically active right-wing website not once but twice. They're not some juke joint or the Knights of Columbus or Little Rock First Night Balls.
It's relevant, its sourced, its been on the Free Republic website for months verbatim without challenge. It should not have been deleted. Eschoir ( talk) 05:24, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
How about
Huckabee's band has played for political events and parties, including entertaining at unofficial inaugural balls in Washington DC in 2001 and 2005, organized and promoted by controversial conservative website Free Republic. The band is polished enough to have opened for Willie Nelson, Percy Sledge, .38 Special and Grand Funk Railroad.
Eschoir ( talk) 07:30, 12 December 2007 (UTC) Eschoir ( talk) 07:40, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
I am removing the following from the article and putting it up for discussion here:
There is some confusion in the public record regarding Huckabee's educational record at the seminary. Some public sources report that he received a master's degree from Southwestern in 1980. [11] Other accounts report that he dropped out after attending the seminary for a year, and imply he never returned. [12]
Sources: http://pewforum.org/religion08/profile.php?CandidateID=10 http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/12/magazine/16huckabee.html?pagewanted=6&_r=1&hp&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1197480423-iFOvWJ3XMBCToJGeeKt2hg
The oldest source I have on Huckabee's bio is from 1989. This says that he attended Southwestern Baptist, but did not say he received a degree. I would prefer not to have three sentences in the article speculating about it because the speculation should be on the Talk Page. "Huckabee was born in Hope and is a 1975 graduate of Ouachita Baptist University. He attended Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth. " source: Publication: Arkansas Democrat-Gazette Original Date: 06/24/1989
Huckabee's not preaching to choir;Arkansas governor leads largely Democratic state The Dallas Morning News, February, 09 1997 by Scott Parks Jmegill ( talk) 19:38, 12 December 2007 (UTC)"At Hope High School, Mr. Huckabee was an honor student and president of the student body in 1973, his senior year. His girlfriend, Janet McCain, was on the girl's basketball team. He was the play-by-play announcer on local radio. They went off to college together at Ouachita Baptist University and married before they were 20. He graduated magna cum laude in "just more than two years," according to his resume. The Huckabees moved to Fort Worth after college. He entered Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary and went to work for mercurial television evangelist James Robison, an early advocate of conservative Christian involvement in politics."
Jmegill, thanks for your input. Your notion that the older sources are most accurate is persuasive to me. Huckabee's repeated comments at debates that he's the only candidate with a theology degree brought me to Wikipedia, because I was curious about this point, and the reference to his attendance at Southwestern in this article seemed indefinitive to me. That led me to do a more thorough search, and I found many online biographies attributing an M.A. degree in 1980, including Brittanica Online. (Here's a list: http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&q=%22Mike+Huckabee%22+%22master%27s+degree%22&btnG=Google+Search)
The Brittanica Online site is undated, but I wonder if its existence changes your view that the information shouldn't be included on this page? http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9439074/Mike-Huckabee
I've asked the Pew Forum webmaster if Pew could source the 1980 degree, but don't yet have a response. Because the "theology degree" is a persistent part of Huckabee's campaign, I wonder if it's inappropriate to raise the confusion here at Wikipedia until someone can provide an authoritative source?
I'm not trying to cause trouble, but am genuinely interested in Huckabee's qualifications for office and think this is not a trivial point.
Thanks again. Jeff Nobles ( talk) 20:23, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
that website mentions that Huckabee is an alumnus, but it does not say that he received a degree from there. This was issued in 2003. The google news has some paid archives, but one can make out some information from the summaries http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=%22Mike+Huckabee%22+%22Southwestern+Baptist+Theological+Seminary%22+&hl=en&um=1&sa=N&start=20 That is, search "Mike Huckabee" "Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary" Sources from 2006 and 2007 say that he "graduated" from there. Prior sources say that he "attended" or "entered" there. You try to figure out what this means. Jmegill ( talk) 21:05, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Bad information, definitely, but I can't figure out what it means; maybe only Huckabee could explain it. Had hopes that I could find an answer here, or at least note that the question exists. Today's long piece in the New York Times says that Huckabee's bachelor's degree was in speech and communications, so I'm curious about Huckabee's theology degree, which he has used to set himself apart from the other candidates at the GOP debates. Is it better for this entry not to note the confusion that exists in the public record, including Brittanica Online? There might be a chance that someone with knowledge will read this entry and clarify the confusion. Jeff Nobles ( talk) 21:55, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
I agree; that is unusual. Weird stuff. 22:16, 12 December 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jeff Nobles ( talk • contribs)
Education: B.A., Religion, Ouachita Baptist University, 1976; Postgrad., Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary (Fort Worth, Tex.), 1977; L.H.D., John Brown Univ, 1991; LL.D., Ouachita Baptist University, 1992.
Those are honorary degrees. I think the LL.D. is an honorary law degree. I don't know what an L.H.D. is. Jeff Nobles ( talk) 22:52, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia says the L.H.D. is an honorary degree, Doctor of Humane Letters: "The degree of Doctor of Humane Letters (Latin: Litterarum humanarum doctor; D.H.L.; or L.H.D.) is always conferred as an honorary degree, usually to those who have distinguished themselves in areas other than science (these normally receive the Doctor of Science), government (these often receive a Doctor of Laws degree), religion (these often receive a Doctor of Divinity degree) or literature (these often receive a Doctor of Letters degree)." Jeff Nobles ( talk) 22:54, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Although Brittanica Online and other sources are saying that he received a master's degree in 1980, and I've heard the candidate himself refer to his theology degree. I hope to see the confusion in the public record cleared up soon, either by the Huckabee campaign or a good journalist. Thanks for looking into it with me. Jeff Nobles ( talk) 23:32, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Ah, here's the answer to my question. It's online tonight, from Joe Carter, the Mike Huckabee campaign's research director:
"Governor Huckabee doesn’t have a theology degree. He only spent a year in seminary."
http://campaignspot.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NTdmMWE3MjhjZTgyM2RhYzFmMWRiMzY2MThjZTMxZWY=
Joe Carter goes on to explain that the candidate may be referring to his bachelor's degree in Biblical Studies. This explanation still conflicts with the articles, as in today's New York Times, that say his undergrad degree was in Speech and Communications. But it's now clear that the candidate doesn't have a graduate degree in theology, which was unclear to me before now. Jeff Nobles ( talk) 04:53, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
What a tangled web we weave when we try to clean up our resume to run for high office. I hope to find out why Huckabee refers to his theology degree. I think the best development for him would come if he were able to show that he studied theology in a substantial way as an undergrad and obtained a degree in religious studies and not speech and communications. To claim his honorary degree as a qualification for talking about other Islam and Mormons wouldn't hold water with me. Jeff Nobles ( talk) 05:28, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
HA! I appreciate the humor. Take care. Jeff Nobles ( talk) 05:45, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
I removed the following from the introduction and putting them up for discussion. My thinking is that the introduction should have a neutral POV. This requires an introduction which is either balanced in its POV or strictly biographical facts without any mention of popularity or awards.
He was the third Republican governor of the state since Reconstruction and was the most popular political figure in Arkansas for some periods of his tenure. [13]
In 2005, Huckabee was praised by TIME Magazine as one of the five best governors in America and Governing Magazine who named him among the Public Officials of the Year. [14] He also received the AARP Impact Award in 2006. [15].
Jmegill ( talk) 02:32, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
ThuranX, it seems like your remarks in reply to my first comment violated Wikipedia's "Good faith" policy. You stated without basis that I'm part of some vast plan by "Hucks Army" to whitewash this article, which is, by the way, completely false. I'm definitely a Huckabee supporter, but that does not mean that I'm not part of Huck's Army or that I want to "whitewash the article."
With that said, I read through the article again and think it has greatly improved, but I'd like to submit these items for consideration:
Why is Huckabee's position on Biblical innerancy significant? I don't care whether or not it's mentioned in the article, but the in its current context it looks very out of place (why does it matter, and why doesn't the article elaborate on Hucakbee's other doctrinal positions as well?)
"borrowing," under the "First full term" section, is a bad word choice. Something like "Huckabee paterned his K-12 public education program after..."
References to the band in the "First full term" section should also be reworded. It sounds like Huckabee "owns a band" like the President owns a band, when in reality he just plays in one. Perhaps "Hucakbee played in his band, Capital Offence, for several political events and parties..." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.135.30.198 ( talk) 23:26, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
Eugene Field merits 2-3 sentences, maybe. This case is different from DuMond in that nobody died, nor did large numbers of politicians object, nor did it become a campaign issue like Dumond did in 2002. Jmegill ( talk) 02:41, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
I have to think this is worth a mention right?
http://www.newsweek.com/id/78241
http://utopiarescue.com/oldsite/stop_animal_torture.htm
Zilcho ( talk) 15:35, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
There are people that want me banned for saying this: and they will most likely delete this, but nothing they can do will hide what is already widely known, that Wikipedia suffers an increasingly bad reputation for being biased. Barak Obama does not have a criticisms section. Therefore this one shouldn't either. If you want reasons why this article should have its criticisms section removed, go here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Barack_Obama#No_Criticism_Section.3F.21. if you are a guardian of the democratic candidates and are not NPOV, you will delete my comment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.18.63.188 ( talk) 05:58, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Barack_Obama#No_Criticism_Section.3F.21 Now you could do the right thing and help make WIki's reputation more fair, but its too compelling to be biased on this site, so I highly doubt any editor here will do it, regardless of how bad wiki's reputation suffers. Knol can't get here soon enough! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.18.108.5 ( talk) 01:28, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
How many kids does he have? "He and his wife, Janet, have three grown children: David John Mark, and Sarah." The comma is missing somewhere since I see three boys and one girl.- Babylon pride ( talk) 18:56, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Somebody added a section about his book Kids who Kill. The person says it's a children's book. I really don't think that's correct.
JBFrenchhorn ( talk) 13:57, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
I strongly disagree with breaking out items from Huckabee's Governorship and putting them in the criticisms section. Material should be dealt with as it comes up chronologically - and if the same theme comes up again in the Governorship, the material should all go in the first spot chronologically. Thus a discussion of Dumond would start in fall of 1996 and all the Dumond themed material would be together even though some of it came up in 2001, 2002. While I appreciate Jeremy's attempts to make the article better, adding content to the criticisms section will bring back POV structure complaints. Secondly, I think this article is not long enough yet to justify breaking into pieces. The first attempt which was to break out the criticism/controversies section in a separate page ended with merging the page back into the main article. The second attempt, which was a proposal for a Governorship section, ended with votes for oppose. However, if someone wants to make that argument, then the first thing which should be done is to put David Huckabee paragraph on the David Huckabee page and the second thing is to put the investments criticism on the presidential page. Jmegill ( talk) 05:17, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
We are not going to create a new "Criticism" subsection every time a fringe interest group criticizes a candidate. The "Biblically Responsible Investing Institute" criticized Huckabee (along with Romney, McCain and Thompson) for investing in companies that are not up to their "standards". This includes Johnson & Johnson, Microsoft, General Electric and Berkshire-Hathaway. Anyone investing in those companies-- directly OR THROUGH MUTUAL FUNDS -- is guilty in the eyes of th e BRI. By this group's standards, almost any investor in America would be criticized. I couldn't find many news stories about BRI, but here is one. http://www.worldnewspaperpublishing.com/news/FullStory.asp?loc=TCW&id=1572 Paisan30 ( talk) 04:52, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
BRII is well known and their interests are compatible with Huckabee. Since when does Microsoft and Berkshire Hathaway promote conservative causes? Bill Gates invested in gay rights groups and Warren Buffet is campaigning for Obama. The article you cited says the BRII approves of three of the ten top companies in America. The top companies are more likely to be disapproved as they are huge conglomerates and pressured to have a good public image. We need to present the information and let the reader draw their own conclusion. They post legitimate reasons why they do not approve of each company and these reasons are against what Huckabee claims to stand for. Regardless if you classify BRII as "fringe" it doesn't change the fact Huckabee is investing in companies that support socially liberal causes and this was picked up by the mainstream media.
Jeremy221 ( talk) 07:06, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
I was thinking of starting an article which lists people who have a connection with Mike Huckabee (and their relationship to Huckabee) would be good for tying together loose information. List of major donors, long time staff members, campaign workers, people who are on the same committees, etc. What do you think? Jmegill ( talk) 08:44, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
I added the following to describe Huckabee's personality
"Huckabee's personality has been described in positive terms as "gentle and warm"[170], "charming"[171],"friendly, teddy-bear"[172],and "engaging, warm, relaxed, and persuasive".[173]. Huckabee's personality has been described in negative terms as "petty, thin-skinned, self-righteous"[174], and "somewhat vindictive"[175]. Mixed descriptions include "best of leaders and the worst of thin-skinned pols"[176] and "charming and aloof"[177]"
I think Huckabee can not be understood without knowing about his personality - good and bad. comments welcome. Jmegill ( talk) 18:29, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
For what it's worth, of the articles for the 15 major Dem and GOP candidates still running for president, this is the last one that still has a "Controversies" or "Criticisms" section or subarticle. All the others have dismantled, with their contents disbursed and integrated into appropriate sections of the main article or other subarticles. See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject United States presidential elections#Status of "controversies" pages for the full list, and a record of the discussions and dismantlings. Wasted Time R ( talk) 13:55, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
What happened to the lead? It should be two-three paragraphs according to WP:LEAD and to meet standards of a GA/ FA article. I had expanded the lead to two paragraphs but now it is back to one paragraph. Morphh (talk) 23:00, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
I think it should be deleted. Its note noteworthy.
Jeremy221 ( talk) 22:30, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
>Huckabee supports the death penalty.[132] Blaise ( talk) 14:02, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Is there any logical reason to mark currencies in this article as US$? I think that it's reasonably assumed that currencies referred to in an article would be the native currency, unless otherwise marked. If anyone can point me to a policy on this or give some amazing logical reasons, I'll leave it. Otherwise, this should be corrected. Huckabee's not budgeting with the twoonie. ThuranX ( talk) 14:15, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
"Huckabee supports murder and is a hunter." What does support murder mean? BCapp 14:35, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Looks like someone put it back in there. Definitely needs to be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.196.47.247 ( talk) 19:23, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
I am curious why there is not more information on his religious career? How long did he serve as a minister? Where was his church located? Did he work with youth; was he the senior pastor, etc. This seems like a rather large gap in his history. Does someone have this information to flesh out the article? Given the size of the Southern Baptists in the United States, this is a significant issue in the political arena. -- Storm Rider (talk) 10:20, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Please add [[pt:Mike Huckabee]]. Thanks. Dantadd ( talk) 18:29, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Is there a better picture out there than the one with Huckabee and the microphone? There are some, like [6] and [7], that are on flickr without the right CC license. Maybe someone could go out there and take a picture or otherwise find a better pic of Huckabee without the microphone at the bottom. Calwatch ( talk) —Preceding comment was added at 07:49, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Mike Huckabee is many things, including a good and decent guy. That is where his association with Dr. K.A. Paul comes to play, trying to do what is right and helping the needy. KA Paul is a Christian evangelist who promotes peace and end to poverty, and has "counseled" third world dictators like Charles Taylor, Sadaam Hussein, Libyan leader Muammar al-Gaddafi and others in the category. Huckabee has endorsed Paul and his work [8], They traveled with Paul from February, 26 through March, 4 2002 on KA Paul's 747sp "Global Peace One", and then Gov. Huckabee hosted a State dinner on July, 11 2005 for Paul and his organization. The fact that Huckabee has invested time and trust into Paul is noteworthy for a guy who wants to be our president. Whether or not K.A. Paul's activities are positive in certain circles or not is a matter for public consumption along with Huckabee's time and attention to this individual. I would't put it on the article page at the moment, but want to hear from others on the matter first.- Juda S. Engelmayer ( talk) 18:10, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
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![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
SNSAnchor, I have two complaints on your last edit. ontheissues.org is a nice compilation of sources. However, best practices is to use primary sources rather than secondary sources. Could you find the primary source? My other complaint is that the McCain-Kennedy bill came up once in 2006 and twice in 2007. It is not at all clear which time you mean that Huckabee opposed the bill. I have encountered no source which suggests he opposed the bill in 2006. Jmegill 00:55, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
The campaign section needs to be a short summary, not a list of everything that's happened in the campaign, since there is now a separate article for that.-- Gloriamarie 22:40, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
This section reads like a National Review article, assuming that the interest of the reader is in discovering if he adhered to a tax cutting political line. Indeed it only cites anti-tax foundations and arch conservative political rags. I myself am more interested in his fiscal policies--that is, on whom did he raise taxes, on whom did he lower them, and what are his proposals as president, than I am in what the National Review of some other equivalent source thinks about whether he lived up to their standards. 190.10.54.145 ( talk) 06:20, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Reading through this section I noted that it did not include information that I've heard regarding the 65.3 figure. I remember someone saying (perhaps Huckabee) that almost all this was Federal programs that he had no control over and that his figure was closer to 2% or something. Trying to find where I read/heard it but thought I would post here.
Morphh
(talk)
13:14, 09 September 2007 (UTC)
This is a very important issue. What's his position on it? Please includemain article w/ references. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.249.64.128 ( talk) 16:25, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Huckabee is a very strong advocate of the Fair Tax. I think it should be mentioned under political positions. Brian Pearson 00:27, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Huckabee does not believe the theory of evolution (which, I suppose, refers to the modern synthesis), and he is on record in the 3rd source on the detailed issues page and in a Bill Maher Youtube mini-interview for taking the position that science teachers should determine the curriculum of science courses. This is quite far from "expressed support for allowing creationism and intelligent design in school science classes along with evolution" since there are very few science teachers who take creationism and ID seriously. Is there a source for the latter statement, or is this just a mis-characterization? Mistercupcake 04:29, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
Huckabee: Are you saying some students are not getting exposure to the various theories of creation?
Student (stunned): No, of evol … well, of evolution specifically. It’s a biological study that should be educated [taught], but is generally not.
Moderator: Schools are dodging Darwinism? Is that what you … ?
Student: Yes.
Huckabee: I’m not familiar that they’re dodging it. Maybe they are. But I think schools also ought to be fair to all views. Because, frankly, Darwinism is not an established scientific fact. It is a theory of evolution, that’s why it’s called the theory of evolution. And I think that what I’d be concerned with is that it should be taught as one of the views that’s held by people. But it’s not the only view that’s held. And any time you teach one thing as that it’s the only thing, then I think that has a real problem to it. source: http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/rncse_content/vol25/8118_is_evolution_arkansas39s_h_12_30_1899.asp
From the same TV show in 2003
Student: Goal 2.04 of the Biology Benchmark Goals published by the Arkansas Department of Education in May of 2002 indicates that students should examine the development of the theory of biological evolution. Yet many students in Arkansas that I have met … have not been exposed to this idea. What do you believe is the appropriate role of the state in mandating the curriculum of a given course?
Huckabee: I think that the state ought to give students exposure to all points of view. And I would hope that that would be all points of view and not only evolution. I think that they also should be given exposure to the theories not only of evolution but to the basis of those who believe in creationism … source: http://www.arktimes.com/Articles/print.aspx?ArticleID=e7a0f0e1-ecfd-4fc8-bca4-b9997c912a91
So, Mistercupcake, the previous statement about Huckabee is accurate. Jmegill 05:23, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
Mistercupcake, I object to saying that Huckabee is "taking the position that science teachers should determine the curriculum of science courses". It is not supported by your sources. Huckabee's position is that a belief in evolution does not matter for being President. In the Saint Anselm Debate, Huckabee said, "I don't think knowing that [if evolution is true] would make me a better or a worse president." I went and looked up the transcript for the Bill Maher interview that you mentioned. source is here http://www.billmaher.com/?page_id=200 Huckabee takes the position that asking questions about evolution does not matter for president. Here is what they say about evolution MAHER: Now, in one of the debates, the question was asked of the ten Republicans on the stage, “How many of you do not believe in evolution?” And three candidates raised their hand. You were one of them.
HUCKABEE: Mm-hmm. [affirmative]
MAHER: So…[laughter]…you don’t really believe in evolution?
HUCKABEE: Bill, I believe God created the heavens and the earth. Now, how He did it, I don’t know. I thought the question was utterly silly to be asked in a presidential debate. None of us are running in order to be an eighth grade science teacher. We’re running to be president. It’s really not, to me, a proper yes-or-no question. But if he meant by that, do I believe that it is all about just random selection and that it just happened without any design – designer and anybody who was behind it – no, I don’t believe that. I think there was a God behind it. And that was what I was trying to say. And I still believe that.
MAHER: But evolution is about, like, we came from the monkeys.
HUCKABEE: Yes.
MAHER: You don’t agree with that?
HUCKABEE: I don’t know. I mean, if God six days—
MAHER: [overlapping] Come on, have you ever seen a monkey? [laughter]
HUCKABEE: [overlapping]—or if he took six million years – sure, I have, you know. And, in fact, if evolution—
MAHER: [overlapping] How can you look in a monkey’s eye and want to start a monkey fight like Michael Vick? No.
HUCKABEE: No, I don’t think so. You know, the point is that the whole process of these debates were more like a game show than it was a serious discourse of political discussion. And the yes-and-no, raise-your-hands, that’s nonsense. If you want to have an honest political discussion, we ought to have it. But the questions sometimes were posed, were a little silly.
MAHER: [overlapping] But, why shouldn’t it be part of a political discussion? If someone believes that the earth is 6,000 years old when every scientist in the world tells us it’s billions of years old, why shouldn’t I take that into account when I’m assessing the rationality of someone I’m going to put into the highest office in the land? [applause] [cheers]
HUCKABEE: Well, I think the point, though, Bill, is that we really don’t know. And that’s my whole point. I don’t believe that it matters how long it took. It may have been six billion years. That’s how God may have done it. I just want to make sure that if I’m put on the spot, do I believe that it’s a basically just sort of an accident that all of this happened, this wonderful creation of ours, or do I believe there was a creator behind it – look, I’m going to go on the side that there’s a creator behind it.
MAHER: Okay. Speaking of creators—
HUCKABEE: Yes.
MAHER: [overlapping]—I know you’ve said that Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton – you’ve commented on their marriage and said, you know, a lot of people in my party have a lot of these values and judgments they make, but they, despite their marital difficulties, kept their marriage together, and that that was a good thing.
HUCKABEE: That’s right. [scattered applause]
Mistercupcake, I think the original sentence better described Huckabee's views on the subject. Unfortunately, it was not supported by references to his views. To be fair, Huckabee's argument is that evolution is not relevant to being President. Thus, I will undo your edits, add in references and also add "Huckabee's position is that belief in evolution is not relevant to being President." referenced on the Bill Maher show transcript. Jmegill 05:59, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
JRG39402:
http://www.mikehuckabee.com/?FuseAction=Newsroom.PressRelease&ID=406 needs to be taken into consideration on the Guantanamo Bay Detention Facility issue. Currently the page is either inaccurate or very lacking in his description on this issue. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
66.0.164.35 (
talk)
17:40, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
I saw this and thought someone might want to include some points. http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=57708 Morphh (talk) 2:37, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
On Tuesday September 25, Jon Stewart made fun of Huckabee's (and also Giuliani and Thompson) comments before the NRA.. Huckabee said, "I'm pretty sure that they will be duck hunting in heaven" and "Somehow the angels took that bullet and went right to the antelope and my hunt was over in a wonderful way" Clip Here: http://rackjite.com/archives/640-Jon-Stewart-Does-the-NRA-and-Looneytoon-Mike-Huckabee.html Several anonymous editors have attempted to alter the page to reflect Huckabee's comments. I was not aware that Huckabee had actually made the comments and thought it was some kind of joke. I wonder if the comments merit a mention either on the Huckabee page or the campaign page. The larger issue is Stewart is calling attention to the way Huckabee approaches religion. While Stewart and Comedy Central are apathetic or hostile to Christianity (and gun rights), Huckabee's comments infuse religious beliefs in everyday life in a manner uncommon in many circles. Huckabee's rejection of evolution, support for Creationism/ID, support for ArKids and opposition to Jim Holt's immigration bill appear to be related to Huckabee's religious views. What information is out there that describes Huckabee's religious views? Jmegill 01:00, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Where should Mike Huckabees nicknames go such as Tax Hike Mike,. Also where should the mention that Gov. Huckabee was number 6 on Judicial Watch's "Top 10 most wanted corrupt politicians" go.
This article is starting to look out of whack. The criticism section (many of them very minor criticisms) is getting to big to be on the main Mike Huckabee page ( I mean when its as long as his bio, its going a little over the top). Like other presidential candidates pages have done, I think it is time to make it into a subpage in titled, Criticism of Mike Huckabee. Right now it looks like a negative ad by another campaign :). -- Gnnnews2 01:53, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Something to work on... the paragraphs in this article need a bit of work. Some are one or two sentences that might combined well with others and some look like 20 sentences that need to be split up (like illegal immigration). Morphh (talk) 13:21, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Material on clemency concerns. I am not sure how to best summarize these concerns. I am also not sure how to work it in, because Wayne Dumond would be a special case of clemency concerns. http://www.petitiononline.com/792004/petition.html and http://www.arkansasleader.com/frontstories/st_07_14_04/clemency.html and http://web.archive.org/web/20060815191208/http://mikehuckabee.com/recent_news.htm#Governor%20gave%20clemency%20to%20man%20who%20made%20him%20Governor and http://www.arkansasnews.com/archive/2004/03/11/News/143271.html and http://www.arkansasnews.com/archive/2004/02/26/News/131977.html and http://www.arkansasnews.com/archive/2004/04/14/News/180347.html and http://www.arkansasnews.com/archive/2004/02/20/News/127410.html and http://www.arkansasnews.com/archive/2004/04/21/News/185658.html and http://www.arkansasnews.com/archive/2004/01/23/News/109327.html and http://www.arkansasnews.com/archive/2004/01/08/JohnBrummett/104159.html and http://www.arkansasnews.com/archive/2004/01/24/News/109466.html http://www.arkansasleader.com/frontstories/st_07_07_04/huckabee3.html http://www.arkansasleader.com/frontstories/st_06_23_04/huckabee.html http://www.arkansasleader.com/frontstories/st_06_30_04/huckabee2.html http://www.arkansasleader.com/frontstories/st_07_14_04/huckabee4.html http://www.kfsm.com/Global/story.asp?S=2019803 http://web.archive.org/web/20041210185701/www.bentoncourier.com/articles/2004/07/17/news/43onews.txt http://web.archive.org/web/20041210185124/www.bentoncourier.com/articles/2004/07/17/news/43hnews.txt http://www.todaysthv.com/news/news.aspx?storyid=10496 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jmegill ( talk • contribs) 05:51, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Material on the Brock vs Huckabee lawsuit. http://www.rcfp.org/news/2003/0717brockv.html http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/news.aspx?id=11712 http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=16126 http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=16106 http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=16132 http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=16313 http://web.archive.org/web/20020802061334/www.arkansasnews.com/275422933732023.bsp http://web.archive.org/web/20020802153110/todaysthv.com/news/news.asp?storyid=3875 http://web.archive.org/web/20020609063946/www.arktimes.com/max/050302brantley.html http://web.archive.org/web/20031008160334/www.swtimes.com/archive/2002/April/24/news/huckabee_aide.html http://web.archive.org/web/20030802041832/www.arktimes.com/dumas/050302dumas.html Jmegill 02:08, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
The only reason this section is on the page is because it is weirdly self-referential. It is not criticism of Mike Huckabee. It may have nothing to do with Mike Huckabee except that Huckabee's page was the object of the actions. I think that the section should be removed. Jmegill 02:21, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
The views of critics should be represented if they are relevant to the subject's notability and can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to side with the critics; rather, it needs to be presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone. Be careful not to give a disproportionate amount of space to critics, to avoid the effect of representing a minority view as if it were the majority one. If the criticism represents the views of a tiny minority, it has no place in the article. Content should be sourced to reliable sources and should be about the subject of the article specifically. Beware of claims that rely on guilt by association. Editors should also be on the lookout for biased or malicious content about living persons. If someone appears to be pushing an agenda or a biased point of view, insist on reliable third-party published sources and a clear demonstration of relevance to the person's notability. — BLP Criticism
Huckabee was Governor for 10.5 years. It is impossible to hold any political job that long and avoid criticism. The reason why the criticism section is proportionally big is because it contains not only criticism of Huckabee, but also Huckabee's response to such criticism. The only subsection of the criticism section which does not contain a Huckabee response is the Janet Huckabee 2002 Secretary of State Run. Not surprisingly, that subsection is also the shortest subsection. Huckabee does get to defend himself in the criticism section. The article structure does not violate NPOV. That said, if you want to remove material from the criticism section, the place to start is with "Controversial comments". I do not think that these comments have much weight. In my opinion, the comments are failed jokes. I have been doing my part to add material to other parts of the Huckabee article to round it out. I have also held back on adding material to the criticism section. See Brock vs. Huckabee and Clemency above in the discussion.
Jmegill
04:34, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
This is an excerpt from the Scott Parks 1997 article: "During his presidency from 1989 to 1991, Southern Baptists were feuding at the state and national level. The conservative wing believed in a literal interpretation of the Bible. Moderates believed some Bible stories were simply metaphors and parables. Mr. Huckabee counted himself in the conservative camp, a believer in Biblical inerrancy. "If you can accept the resurrection, that is the ultimate miracle," he said. "If you can buy that one, the others are easy: turning water into wine and such."" Jmegill 19:15, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Are there are links to give credibility to references 10 and 11 in "The Commercial Appeal"? I'm still looking but can't find them.....thanks Strunke 22:38, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Anonymous editor 75.37.206.111 returned redacted material to the article. My position on "Comments" is that they are failed jokes or just Huckabee's style of speaking. They lack notability. I question whether they merit an extended mention under Controversy. I liked how Morphh summarized with a single sentence with many footnotes. I imagine that that going forward there will be many more statements that attract attention. Similar comments already include Huckabee's remarks to the NRA which Jon Stewart commented on and Huckabee's calling Arkansas a "banana republic" on a New York radio station. It will be easy just to add footnote references to Morphh's summary sentence, rather than giving each one its own mention. (Which would make the Controversy section proportionally big) Just two days ago, Huckabee spoke of the "Holocaust of abortion". As for the other section, Gift Registry, the reference links were also included in the summary sentence provided by Morphh. I am neutral on whether Gift Registry should have its own subsection. But I would like to see 75.37.206.111 justify why both subsections merit an extended mention. I am content with the other four subsections. Jmegill 03:08, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Title: Public Comments (these are given when publicly speaking, and should reflect that these are open quotes made in public, and thus not some secretive back door slurring of groups and people)
Please be aware of the following: User_talk:Shogun108#Mike_Huckabee. Shogun108 feels that any 'controversies' section is inherently evil, and should be folded into the political positions section. Although I tried to explain that some controversies would be orphaned and lost, he responded with policy wonking about NPOV. He's not interested in actually explaining, beyond citing NPOV, and has stated an intent to go ahead and make it his way. IN the face of requests to talk things out, such actions would not be BOLD. I invite others to simliarly appeal to him to use talk instead of make radical changes to the article. ThuranX 04:50, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
I simply believe that the article be reworked. Do not remove any of the "controversies." According to Wikipedia's guidelines:
"The neutral point of view is a means of dealing with conflicting verifiable perspectives on a topic as evidenced by reliable sources. The policy requires that where multiple or conflicting perspectives exist within a topic each should be presented fairly. None of the views should be given undue weight or asserted as being judged as "the truth", in order that the various significant published viewpoints are made accessible to the reader, not just the most popular one. It should also not be asserted that the most popular view, or some sort of intermediate view among the different views, is the correct one to the extent that other views are mentioned only pejoratively. Readers should be allowed to form their own opinions."
Readers simply cannot do this with the current state of the article. I also ask that your own bias does not affect NPOV of an article. Details of how it will be edited will be provided in a few days once I figure out a way to best incorporate both points of view. But please judge this article within a NPOV. It distresses me when bias can leak onto an advertised unbiased site. I do not want to delete his criticism I simply would like to have the chance of cleaning up redundant information in that section and either combining it with his "Political Positions," Which I think NEEDs to be expanded, or presenting two views in a manner without bias. I know who does this stuff to Huckabee and I'm not sure they would like it if their candidate was slandered on his own page no I'd imagine not. So why does their view take precedence over pro-Huckabee supporters? Sorry I'm rambling Expect me to chime in later with a proposed fix to this problem. Shogun108 04:56, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Look at the word "Claims" What is it doing there? It is discrediting the statement Huckabee made. Use of words in this manner is a promotion of bias. Another:Huckabee claims to have cut taxes while governor, saving Arkansas' citizens close to $380 million.
But his view is never explained in the article at all! It is said that it exists, but it is not given. Illegal immigration This entire section is not a controversy come to think of it the only true controversies he was involved in was the Dunlop Case and His wife's political race and maybe the wedding gifts. Anyway most of the info on his immigration points is old and it concludes without even addressing Huckabee's current beliefs etc. That shows no balance. When you look at the section about his public comments it does not address his response to the outcries.Huckabee has denied influencing the parole board in any way, but acknowledges some responsibility for signing Dumond's parole.[citation needed] His full disclosure of the incident is described in his book From Hope to Higher Ground.
A contentious speech act; a dispute where there is strong disagreement.
Jmegill: Although the question of moving the controversy section was under question in this discussion page, a course of action was never agreed upon. Therefore this current discussion is justified. The article, as it is, is way out of balanced. The section on Huckabee's tenure as governor is as long as the "Controversy" section! Also in the controversy section, there is no need to have his Fiscal Policy and Immigrations Stance as a controversy. Huckabee fiscal policy is a matter dealing with policy not a controversy regarding him, there totally different.
In order to make this article balanced, we should:
-- SNSAnchor 14:13, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
This is from [1] I also you look into "bias in Word Choice." A subtle change can create glaring bias. If worst comes to worst I suggest that you remove bias sources if you refuse to create unbiased articles besides news articles do not have to be quoted in their rhetoric. Citation means you got the information from that site. It does not mean that you should mirror the article you cited. That is part of the problem. It is very unprofessional to do such things... Shogun108 21:21, 24 October 2007 (UTC)As well, each individual who reports or writes the news has to work hard to guard against his or her own opinions. These opinions can become media bias simply through word choice or inflections and tone of voice when delivering news.
It has been brought to my attention that this page is the focus of an organized effort to slant the article pro-huckabee.[1] These editors claim they are making edits for NPOV, but in reality they are just trying to cover up all bad things of the candidate they support. [1] Byates5637 13:23, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
I have submitted a WP:COI/N report, it might be bounced to WP:BIO/N, dunno. ThuranX 20:33, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
The report has been taken to WP:BIO/N. Further, the off wiki group is now resorting to off-site personal attacks, and here, they're attempting to extort services to leave certain areas of this article alone. I'm going to give it a little time more at WP:BIO, then take this mess to AN/I for blocks and protections. ThuranX 22:14, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Today's edits show clearly that more SPA editors are coming here from Hucksarmy to whitewash the article. I will again go to BIO/N, but they're incredibly slow there. ThuranX 23:39, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
from the text i submitted when requesting temporary unprotection of Fred Thompson:
with the re-inclusion of huckabee's campaign logo, his is now the only presidential candidate biography that has such a logo. i assert that either all candidate bio's have such logos, or none. the latter is better, per the justification above. Anastrophe 18:02, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Morphh (talk) 2:15, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
While I don't concur that campaign logos are necessarily POV, in fact, I think they are a part of the history of the individual or campaign. Nonetheless, I will personally abide by by all the current candidates of all the various parties having them included or all of them being removed ... but not some of either. ThuranX, I noticed you removed Hillary's campaign logo, so I won't return Mike's if it says that way. -- Mactographer 21:48, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Shogun108, you should discuss why you are changing the order of the article. You should make the case why one order of the article is better than another order of the article. If not, then I may just change it back to how it was before. Jmegill 17:17, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
In 1999-2000, Huckabee was in conflict with the Clinton Administration over whether kids who qualified for Arkids A (then called Medicaid) should be funneled into Arkids A rather than Arkids B.(then called Arkids First). Huckabee stated that some people refused to enroll in Medicaid out of pride, but would enroll in Arkids First because it wasn't called Medicaid. Arkids A had no co-pay, while Arkids B did have co-pays and higher income levels for eligibility. Are there other reasons WHY Huckabee challenged the Clinton Administration over this? Jmegill 22:53, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
I object Bryan Derksen's edit to the Dumond subsection. He changed "Dumond had been attacked and castrated prior to his trial for the rape" to "Dumond was castrated prior to his trial; he claimed that he was attacked by two men in his home (though district prosecutor Gene Raff suggested it was a case of self-mutilation and a urologist who'd studied the topic told the Forrest City Times-Herald that self-mutilation isn't that rare among psychologically disturbed sex offenders)." Comments on how and why Dumond was castrated are tangential to an article about Mike Huckabee. The level of detail is not necessary to understanding the controversy. Jmegill 01:37, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
The Dumond section states that full disclosure from Huckabee can be found in his book. According to a new article citing evidence provided by a former Huckabee aide and published by the Huffington Post, however, that notion simply is not true. In fact, the former governor received written letters from former Dumond rape victims pleading for his continued imprisonment and warning of his likelihood to not only rape again, but to kill the victims. Apparently, Huckabee chose politics over the private words of rape victims, and two more heinous crimes were commited as a direct result. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.142.186.115 ( talk) 06:00, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
"Full disclosure"? How is that neutral? As the previous post states, it is a lie. I'm not going to direct you to other sources since I'm tired of Wikifascists would appoint themselves the guardians of the articles.
Walter E. Kurtz, USA (Retd.) (
talk)
09:33, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
I object to the last two edits by SNSAnchor. The addition of the phrase "The same year, Huckabee was named “Friend of a Taxpayer” by American for Tax Reform (ATR) for his cut in statewide spending." should be put with Fiscal Record subsection, not under the first term subsection. This is because it more logically goes with a discussion of his fiscal record. The second to last edit has a couple of problems. The way it was edited the structure of the edit reads 1.) Huckabee's campaign talking points 2.) Fiscal Criticism 3. Repeats Huckabee's campaign talking points. Thus, the edit carries redundant sentences. The first sentence "Huckabee cut taxes over ninety times while governor,..." is redundant with "Huckabee's campaign has countered these arguments by saying that Huckabee cut taxes 94 times including signing the first broad-based tax cut in the history of the state". Jmegill 04:25, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
The edit on Huckabee's first term is not supported by the source. The bond issue vote happened on June 15, 1999. The vote passed 80-20. Huckabee signed the bill two months earlier on April 1, 1999. Taxes went up immediately upon signing the bill. Now, logically, how can 80% of the state support a tax increase two months before they voted on it? The source clearly states that the bond vote does not affect the tax increases. The bond vote is only on whether Arkansas issues bonds to speed up road repair or uses the tax increase to finance road repair on a pay as you go basis. The source is copyrighted material which I paid for from a newspaper archive, but I am more than willing to email anybody who asks for the full article in question if they have any doubts about it. I emailed the full article in question on September 3 to the editor in question. The second edit "because of previous years of mismanagement" is POV and will be removed. The Jim Cooper quote should be place in the fiscal record subsection since it is dated Oct. 13, 2007 and is designed to counter criticism. Jmegill 20:13, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Why isn't there an Español link in the "In other languages" box?? I found an article at es.wikipedia.org, so does someone know how to get it linked here?? 67.149.116.181 —Preceding comment was added at 15:58, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Information from the campaign or candidate should be sourced as coming from the campaign or candidate. Information which comes from a reliable third party source can be stated as fact. This is my reasoning for the last revert. Jmegill 15:43, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
I am not sure that Huckabee has an official campaign forum. The candidate would want to control the message and allowing others to post in the forum would interfere with that. I have been unable to find a link to an official forum on Huckabee's campaign website. There are links to http://www.forum.hucksarmy.com/ but they are only found in the comments section of the blog. This does not suggest endorsement of the site. Reading the "About Us" section of Hucksarmy, they do not claim to be an official forum either. Whois for Hucksarmy returms Bill Goins, whose name appears nowhere on MikeHuckabee.com. Where is the evidence that Hucksarmy or MikeHuckabeeforums.com is an official forum? Jmegill 23:31, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone know where I can find the text of the actual Amendment one that was on the ballot in 1996? The Amendment established a minimum property tax of 25 mils (Arkansas property is assessed on 20% of the value). Supposedly, only 6 out of 311 school districts were below 25 mils. The Amendment received support from David Pryor, Mike Beebe, Ron Russell of the Ark Chamber of Commerce (and other business leaders) and was Jim Guy Tucker's idea. Huckabee didn't have to support it and the issue was contentious for Tucker. I am unclear over how redistributionist the formula was and whether this represented a significant change in terms of tax burden and also school expenditures. One source says, " All money raised by school taxes in 319 individual districts would have to come to Little Rock and be dispersed statewide. That way, the same amount of money would be spent on every child in public schools regardless of how rich or poor the child's district" and "a measure to redistribute local property tax money to equalize school funding statewide.". Also, "At its heart is a provision to remove constitutional restrictions on distributing local property tax proceeds statewide to even out big differences in education funding available to rich school districts and poor ones." Also, "The amendment requires that districts that bring in more money per student than specified in the funding formula send the extra money to the state for redistribution" Also, "It would require that all school districts earmark for the state an amount of money equal to the revenue generated by a 25-mill tax; the state would ensure that the money is distributed among the districts. The amendment would not force a tax increase in most school districts, and each district would keep any revenue it generates in excess of the state minimum. " A letter writer complains, "Amendment 1 means the end of local control. If it passes, Arkansas, like several other reform states, will begin an impossible fight to regain local control of their schools, lost when a state mandates "equalizing funding.""
The Alternatives mentioned to Amendment 1 were tax increases or a school consolidation program. (school consolidation did later end up happening, but Huckabee later ended up endorsing a plan of consolidation) The previous year, some persons had to pay a 10% income surcharge. I would appreciate any insight on this issue. Jmegill 03:46, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Although the section about Mr. Huckabee and his wife running on the same ticket may be an interesting piece of trivia, it hardly merits listing under the "controversy" section. Is it controversial for Mrs. Clinton to run for the same office her husband once held? Please.
I suggest the section either be removed or relocated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.135.30.198 ( talk) 21:21, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
I wanted to mention this on the talk page before I do this as perhaps a short discussion will make it unnecessary but I have discussed it in the past and the article continues to concern me. If we do submit this for request for comment, please don't take it as anything against the editors working to improve the article. Sometimes things just need a little more discussion from external sources to get us on the proper path (if any issue is found). Due to the sensitivity of BLP with regard to a U.S. presidential candidate, we need to be very cautious and make sure we're presenting the material in the most neutral way. My concerns are with the controversy section and issues with WP:BLP particularly regarding BLP criticism, NPOV article structure, and NPOV undue weight. When looking at the table of contents, the controversy overwhelms the article and gives undue weight to headers that do not reflect important areas to the subject's notability in comparison with the rest of the article structure. Take a look at the John Stossel article before and after, which underwent a similar process of BLP / article structure and undue weight changes. All the important content and criticism is still there but it is presented in a way that does not bias the article and puts it in context for the overall biography. I'm not sure how best to address it but I thought perhaps an RFC would get some opinions of other editors that are not as vested as our longtime editors and HucksArmy. The consensus my be no changes, and I can accept that, but I think we need to have more discussion for this high profile biography. Morphh (talk) 15:14, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Seems the RFC has done nothing and this is only getting worse. I've made a post to the BLP noticeboard to try and get this moving. This is getting too close to the primaries to not do something quickly. Morphh (talk) 21:39, 03 December 2007 (UTC)
Link [3] Brian Pearson 01:12, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
I removed this from the main article for some discussion. The only thing here that makes this anything to consider is the last statement, which links to a self described liberal blog. I don't see that the statement that "some political commentators to cry foul" is supported in the article. This is not a reliable source and the accusation could be very close to libelous. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid; it is not our job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives. Morphh (talk) 15:53, 04 December 2007 (UTC)
Shortly before announcing his candidacy for the President of the United States, Huckabee ordered that the drives of 83 personal computers and 4 servers be destroyed during his transition phase in leaving office. According to Claire Bailey, director of the Arkansas Department of Information Systems, the governor’s office chose a combination of writing over the data and destroying the hard drives. [1] This controversial move has led some political commentators to cry foul, as the measures he took seem excessive unless he had something to hide. [2]
Jloc1210 ( talk) 15:50, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
This is not a useful heading - I see exactly one award in there, and almost no praise. I'm not even sure what "themes" means - another version of "political positions", perhaps? And I think controversies are best handled when integrated into the appropriate section of the article, as has been done for Hillary Rodham Clinton and others. The section's focus is not at all clear and has no analogues that I can think of in other biographies - seems to be a catch-all section. So I would break it up and move the parts as follows: create a "personal image" section or some name like that (health advocacy, gift registry, public comments and any other things about his personal image); appropriate governorship term (fiscal record, Wayne Dumond, Janet Huckabee/Secy of State}; political positions - which would be much better rendered not as a list (illegal immigration). I'm willing to do the work, but wanted to raise it here rather than waste my time. But I think this section has to change. Tvoz | talk 22:12, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
After reading the entire page, I'm left with the feeling that I just read a campaign brochure for Huckabee. This is a highly-biased entry with barely a mention of Huckabee's many scandals while governor or of his borderline legal/illegal acceptance of "gifts" similar to those received from this Baptist congregations.
I had hoped to read a balanced article displaying both his successes and failures but mostly read a litany of great accomplishments. Gee, he's closer to being godlike than I knew. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.178.38.95 ( talk) 06:32, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
How about this? (Includes primary sources) http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/12/05/exclusive-the-complete-h_n_75373.html Brian, 12/7/07 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.67.236.132 ( talk) 17:05, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
As Governor of Arkansas Huckabee had many controversial articles written about him. They are documented in the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette and Arkansas Times. I am wondering why many of those are not covered in this bio as they would give a more balanced view of his time in office. One in particular occurred early in his career, "Huckabee tapped mansion account for himself," by Arkansas Times [4]. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arkansastexas ( talk • contribs) 02:18, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
I don't know about the article itself, but what was wrong with the original photo? The full-body shot in front of the flag makes him look like a rock star or something. Narco ( talk) 03:25, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
The Image does not violate any Wikipedia rules and should have never been removed. Rtr10 —Preceding comment was added at 21:26, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
Under "Political Positions" article states "Huckabee supports murder and is a hunter" while the reference used shows that Mike Huckabee is a hunter (as stated), supports 2nd amendment along the lines of NRA, and supports a law similar to the Florida "castle law" which "states that any person has the right to 'stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm.'" To call this 'murder' shows obvious bias against the position. Should be changed to state simply that he supports law similar to Florida "castle law" with brief summary of what that entails. Griff199 ( talk) 13:30, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
it may be a US article but not every one reading it is in the united states. User:Silverhorse —Preceding comment was added at 02:20, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
The controversy section has grown big enough to move to a separate page. If it is not Wikipedia would have a bias argument against it. Check out the status of all the other top tier Republican candidates:
Mike Huckabee: large controversy section on main article Rudy Giuliani: No controversy section Fred Thompson: Same size as Huckabee, but on its own page Mitt Romney: No controversy section John McCain: No controversy section
What do you think?-- SNSAnchor ( talk) 03:02, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was Merge the controversies article back into the primary biography article.
--
Yellowdesk (
talk)
23:18, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
I support merging
Mike Huckabee and
Mike Huckabee controversies to avoid POV fork.
Jmegill (
talk)
09:20, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Merge as guidelines WP:Criticism says "Don't make articles entirely devoted to criticism of a topic that has or should have its own Wikipedia article". Robneild ( talk) 11:26, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Merge. Shouldn't have been split out, one other article isn't much precedent. Leave it all here until a real consensus can be formed for a solution, and perhaps crosspost to the Election Wikiproject, as they may have already come up with a uniform system. This is a ridiculously fast moving set of efforts to mave his criticisms, in one form or another, to a second article. Al lot of it seems to be being done by people of the same mindset as the rest of HucksArmy. This has got to stop, Wikipedia has standards, as well as consensus, and the constant attacking of this page by a growing number of HA zealots is dragging page quality down. ThuranX ( talk) 15:20, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Done
Fireplace (
talk) 15:57, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Merge Re Controversies articles-- Philosophically, I am in favor of such articles. I don;t necessarily see a POV fork. People opposing the edits should just give their reasons for opposition. However, since the Hillary and Rudy ones have been taken down, I'd have to say, for consistency that this one on Huckabee could not endure.
Dogru144 (
talk)
21:22, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was to not split the governorship section into a stand-alone article as of December 12, 2007. Subject to revisiting as the article expands.
--
Yellowdesk (
talk)
03:55, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Summary Style is now appropriate for this biography article, which is overwhelmed by the section on the period as Governor, and which I promise will grow now that Huckabee is a contender. For an example, see this navigional template Mitt Romney's several articles: {{
Mitt Romney}}
--
Yellowdesk (
talk)
15:18, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
See:
Proposal: following the structure of another leading candidate article who was governor, using Wikipedia:Summary Style for the Biography, create an article named:
Comments
Many of the
Mike Huckabee references are in need of attention. There are many references that are blind and do not state the author, source, or date of retrieval, and this prevents the article from being even considered a
good article, let alone a
featured article
.
I reformated how the <ref> and </ref> tags related to the text so that they can be found with greater ease in the editing screen.
Here is what I suggest when people add a reference. The good result of this is that you can locate the end of any reference easily, since the closing </ref> is on the first column of an editing screeen. This should make it easier to add or edit the text of the article while noticing where the end and start of each reference is. And when there's more than one ref per paragraph, then on one line you'll see together on the same line, alone, </ref><ref> tags, showing more than one reference relates to that particular text of the article. Comments invited. --
Yellowdesk (
talk)
02:21, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
How the formatting was implemented:
some text at the end of the sentence.NOSPACE<ref>SPACE-NEWLINE
body of reference material hereSPACE-NEWLINE
</ref>SPACE-NEWLINE
Start of next sentence...
The result looks like this while editing:
some text at the end of the sentence.<ref>
body of reference material here
</ref>
Start of next sentence.
Moved this from the article. Another example of undue weight.. Come on.. AIDS statements? This is part of Huckabee's notability? This is part of the problem I have with "criticism" sections. We're going to get every little piece of criticism that anyone can form two sentences around. Also seems like a bit of original research structured in there. Morphh (talk) 3:02, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
In a 1992 statement he provided to the Associated Press, Huckabee advocated isolating AIDS patients from the general population. [3]
In 2007, Huckabee no longer advocates a quarantine, but he defended his earlier view, saying that in 1992 "there was still a great deal of, I think, uncertainty about just how widespread AIDS was, how it could be transmitted. So we know more now than we did in 1992, all of us do -- hopefully." [4] However, by 1992 it was well known that HIV/AIDS could not be spread by casual contact. [5] [3]
In the same statement, Huckabee also opposed increasing federal funding for HIV/AIDS research and suggested that Hollywood celebrities should provide additional funds instead. He said that "homosexuality is an aberrant, unnatural, and sinful lifestyle, and we now know it can pose a dangerous public health risk." [3]
Huckabee now supports additional funding for HIV/AIDS research, but his view that homosexuality is sinful and not normal has not changed. [4]
Discussion seems to have died down. I'm going to attempt a compromise solution by restoring the material under the "Political positions" heading, which seems to more clearly fall outside the "critical views" standard that Morphh is concerned about. Fireplace ( talk) 15:11, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Associated Press http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071208/ap_po/huckabee_aids -- Leladax ( talk) 12:48, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Besides being a poorly worded section title, I don't think this belongs here. This is the problem with a Controversy section. Should we have every newspaper article (in a British paper, no less) in which every candidate is criticized? No. The other topics (immigration, fiscal record) seem to have received pretty widespread coverage as compared to one article in the Guardian. Paisan30 ( talk) 15:20, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
---
There should be adequate mention of his promises to discourage and prevent dual-citizenship and to restrict the ability of US Citizens from voting in foreign elections. This could be a decisive factor for many potential voters. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ewindisch ( talk • contribs) 21:56, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
I ran across this link on a blog. Considering that Huckabee has a lot of support from homeschoolers, it begs the question what his record is on the question http://www.hslda.org/courtreport/v15n3/V15N3AR.asp?PrinterFriendly=True Any additional material out there? Jmegill ( talk) 04:46, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
From reading Huckabee's transcripts on Fox, I felt there was a disconnect from what is presentend in the article from the side of Huckabee. Could someone familar with the case and Huckabee's responce, fill in the gaps? Remember that we're not to take sides. Statements like "In fact, ..." and "Even before taking office, ..." have the perception of bias. Also, do we really need to know about his castration in this article - How is this relavant to Huckabee's handling? Morphh (talk) 17:00, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
The Dumond case should be a separate subsection - it's now included with fiscal management, and the story should be expanded. It would be helpful to show what he said before Dumond was released and his recent statements. The Four Deuces ( talk) 00:21, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Sorry. It was not a separate subsection when I read the article, and I see that the subsection was created Dec. 9th. Don't know why I missed it. -- The Four Deuces ( talk) 23:28, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
The following sourced and previously-published-on-wiki copy was deleted without good reason:
==Freeper Associations==
In January of 2001, the controversial conservative internet group Free Republic organized a "Free Republic Inaugural Gala and Count the Silverware Ball, with orchestral entertainment provided by the sitting governor of Arkansas (Gov. Mike Huckabee) and his band." [6] Among the attendees were James Golden (a.k.a., Bo Snerdly from The Rush Limbaugh Show, an early investor in Free Republic), and the Reverend Jesse Lee Peterson of B.O.N.D. [7]
In January 2005, Free Republic organized an unofficial Inaugural Ball at the Washington Plaza Hotel to celebrate the reelection of President Bush and Vice President Richard Cheney and to honor the men and women serving in the United States Armed Forces. The event was promoted to feature then Arkansas Republican Governor Mike Huckabee and his rock and roll band called Capitol Offense. [8] [9] [10]
The fact that he has a band is important enough to make the lead paragraph. If that band only played for the ACLU or the KKK, wouldn't that be significant? Here he is playing for a politically active right-wing website not once but twice. They're not some juke joint or the Knights of Columbus or Little Rock First Night Balls.
It's relevant, its sourced, its been on the Free Republic website for months verbatim without challenge. It should not have been deleted. Eschoir ( talk) 05:24, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
How about
Huckabee's band has played for political events and parties, including entertaining at unofficial inaugural balls in Washington DC in 2001 and 2005, organized and promoted by controversial conservative website Free Republic. The band is polished enough to have opened for Willie Nelson, Percy Sledge, .38 Special and Grand Funk Railroad.
Eschoir ( talk) 07:30, 12 December 2007 (UTC) Eschoir ( talk) 07:40, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
I am removing the following from the article and putting it up for discussion here:
There is some confusion in the public record regarding Huckabee's educational record at the seminary. Some public sources report that he received a master's degree from Southwestern in 1980. [11] Other accounts report that he dropped out after attending the seminary for a year, and imply he never returned. [12]
Sources: http://pewforum.org/religion08/profile.php?CandidateID=10 http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/12/magazine/16huckabee.html?pagewanted=6&_r=1&hp&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1197480423-iFOvWJ3XMBCToJGeeKt2hg
The oldest source I have on Huckabee's bio is from 1989. This says that he attended Southwestern Baptist, but did not say he received a degree. I would prefer not to have three sentences in the article speculating about it because the speculation should be on the Talk Page. "Huckabee was born in Hope and is a 1975 graduate of Ouachita Baptist University. He attended Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth. " source: Publication: Arkansas Democrat-Gazette Original Date: 06/24/1989
Huckabee's not preaching to choir;Arkansas governor leads largely Democratic state The Dallas Morning News, February, 09 1997 by Scott Parks Jmegill ( talk) 19:38, 12 December 2007 (UTC)"At Hope High School, Mr. Huckabee was an honor student and president of the student body in 1973, his senior year. His girlfriend, Janet McCain, was on the girl's basketball team. He was the play-by-play announcer on local radio. They went off to college together at Ouachita Baptist University and married before they were 20. He graduated magna cum laude in "just more than two years," according to his resume. The Huckabees moved to Fort Worth after college. He entered Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary and went to work for mercurial television evangelist James Robison, an early advocate of conservative Christian involvement in politics."
Jmegill, thanks for your input. Your notion that the older sources are most accurate is persuasive to me. Huckabee's repeated comments at debates that he's the only candidate with a theology degree brought me to Wikipedia, because I was curious about this point, and the reference to his attendance at Southwestern in this article seemed indefinitive to me. That led me to do a more thorough search, and I found many online biographies attributing an M.A. degree in 1980, including Brittanica Online. (Here's a list: http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&q=%22Mike+Huckabee%22+%22master%27s+degree%22&btnG=Google+Search)
The Brittanica Online site is undated, but I wonder if its existence changes your view that the information shouldn't be included on this page? http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9439074/Mike-Huckabee
I've asked the Pew Forum webmaster if Pew could source the 1980 degree, but don't yet have a response. Because the "theology degree" is a persistent part of Huckabee's campaign, I wonder if it's inappropriate to raise the confusion here at Wikipedia until someone can provide an authoritative source?
I'm not trying to cause trouble, but am genuinely interested in Huckabee's qualifications for office and think this is not a trivial point.
Thanks again. Jeff Nobles ( talk) 20:23, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
that website mentions that Huckabee is an alumnus, but it does not say that he received a degree from there. This was issued in 2003. The google news has some paid archives, but one can make out some information from the summaries http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=%22Mike+Huckabee%22+%22Southwestern+Baptist+Theological+Seminary%22+&hl=en&um=1&sa=N&start=20 That is, search "Mike Huckabee" "Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary" Sources from 2006 and 2007 say that he "graduated" from there. Prior sources say that he "attended" or "entered" there. You try to figure out what this means. Jmegill ( talk) 21:05, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Bad information, definitely, but I can't figure out what it means; maybe only Huckabee could explain it. Had hopes that I could find an answer here, or at least note that the question exists. Today's long piece in the New York Times says that Huckabee's bachelor's degree was in speech and communications, so I'm curious about Huckabee's theology degree, which he has used to set himself apart from the other candidates at the GOP debates. Is it better for this entry not to note the confusion that exists in the public record, including Brittanica Online? There might be a chance that someone with knowledge will read this entry and clarify the confusion. Jeff Nobles ( talk) 21:55, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
I agree; that is unusual. Weird stuff. 22:16, 12 December 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jeff Nobles ( talk • contribs)
Education: B.A., Religion, Ouachita Baptist University, 1976; Postgrad., Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary (Fort Worth, Tex.), 1977; L.H.D., John Brown Univ, 1991; LL.D., Ouachita Baptist University, 1992.
Those are honorary degrees. I think the LL.D. is an honorary law degree. I don't know what an L.H.D. is. Jeff Nobles ( talk) 22:52, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia says the L.H.D. is an honorary degree, Doctor of Humane Letters: "The degree of Doctor of Humane Letters (Latin: Litterarum humanarum doctor; D.H.L.; or L.H.D.) is always conferred as an honorary degree, usually to those who have distinguished themselves in areas other than science (these normally receive the Doctor of Science), government (these often receive a Doctor of Laws degree), religion (these often receive a Doctor of Divinity degree) or literature (these often receive a Doctor of Letters degree)." Jeff Nobles ( talk) 22:54, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Although Brittanica Online and other sources are saying that he received a master's degree in 1980, and I've heard the candidate himself refer to his theology degree. I hope to see the confusion in the public record cleared up soon, either by the Huckabee campaign or a good journalist. Thanks for looking into it with me. Jeff Nobles ( talk) 23:32, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Ah, here's the answer to my question. It's online tonight, from Joe Carter, the Mike Huckabee campaign's research director:
"Governor Huckabee doesn’t have a theology degree. He only spent a year in seminary."
http://campaignspot.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NTdmMWE3MjhjZTgyM2RhYzFmMWRiMzY2MThjZTMxZWY=
Joe Carter goes on to explain that the candidate may be referring to his bachelor's degree in Biblical Studies. This explanation still conflicts with the articles, as in today's New York Times, that say his undergrad degree was in Speech and Communications. But it's now clear that the candidate doesn't have a graduate degree in theology, which was unclear to me before now. Jeff Nobles ( talk) 04:53, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
What a tangled web we weave when we try to clean up our resume to run for high office. I hope to find out why Huckabee refers to his theology degree. I think the best development for him would come if he were able to show that he studied theology in a substantial way as an undergrad and obtained a degree in religious studies and not speech and communications. To claim his honorary degree as a qualification for talking about other Islam and Mormons wouldn't hold water with me. Jeff Nobles ( talk) 05:28, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
HA! I appreciate the humor. Take care. Jeff Nobles ( talk) 05:45, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
I removed the following from the introduction and putting them up for discussion. My thinking is that the introduction should have a neutral POV. This requires an introduction which is either balanced in its POV or strictly biographical facts without any mention of popularity or awards.
He was the third Republican governor of the state since Reconstruction and was the most popular political figure in Arkansas for some periods of his tenure. [13]
In 2005, Huckabee was praised by TIME Magazine as one of the five best governors in America and Governing Magazine who named him among the Public Officials of the Year. [14] He also received the AARP Impact Award in 2006. [15].
Jmegill ( talk) 02:32, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
ThuranX, it seems like your remarks in reply to my first comment violated Wikipedia's "Good faith" policy. You stated without basis that I'm part of some vast plan by "Hucks Army" to whitewash this article, which is, by the way, completely false. I'm definitely a Huckabee supporter, but that does not mean that I'm not part of Huck's Army or that I want to "whitewash the article."
With that said, I read through the article again and think it has greatly improved, but I'd like to submit these items for consideration:
Why is Huckabee's position on Biblical innerancy significant? I don't care whether or not it's mentioned in the article, but the in its current context it looks very out of place (why does it matter, and why doesn't the article elaborate on Hucakbee's other doctrinal positions as well?)
"borrowing," under the "First full term" section, is a bad word choice. Something like "Huckabee paterned his K-12 public education program after..."
References to the band in the "First full term" section should also be reworded. It sounds like Huckabee "owns a band" like the President owns a band, when in reality he just plays in one. Perhaps "Hucakbee played in his band, Capital Offence, for several political events and parties..." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.135.30.198 ( talk) 23:26, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
Eugene Field merits 2-3 sentences, maybe. This case is different from DuMond in that nobody died, nor did large numbers of politicians object, nor did it become a campaign issue like Dumond did in 2002. Jmegill ( talk) 02:41, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
I have to think this is worth a mention right?
http://www.newsweek.com/id/78241
http://utopiarescue.com/oldsite/stop_animal_torture.htm
Zilcho ( talk) 15:35, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
There are people that want me banned for saying this: and they will most likely delete this, but nothing they can do will hide what is already widely known, that Wikipedia suffers an increasingly bad reputation for being biased. Barak Obama does not have a criticisms section. Therefore this one shouldn't either. If you want reasons why this article should have its criticisms section removed, go here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Barack_Obama#No_Criticism_Section.3F.21. if you are a guardian of the democratic candidates and are not NPOV, you will delete my comment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.18.63.188 ( talk) 05:58, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Barack_Obama#No_Criticism_Section.3F.21 Now you could do the right thing and help make WIki's reputation more fair, but its too compelling to be biased on this site, so I highly doubt any editor here will do it, regardless of how bad wiki's reputation suffers. Knol can't get here soon enough! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.18.108.5 ( talk) 01:28, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
How many kids does he have? "He and his wife, Janet, have three grown children: David John Mark, and Sarah." The comma is missing somewhere since I see three boys and one girl.- Babylon pride ( talk) 18:56, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Somebody added a section about his book Kids who Kill. The person says it's a children's book. I really don't think that's correct.
JBFrenchhorn ( talk) 13:57, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
I strongly disagree with breaking out items from Huckabee's Governorship and putting them in the criticisms section. Material should be dealt with as it comes up chronologically - and if the same theme comes up again in the Governorship, the material should all go in the first spot chronologically. Thus a discussion of Dumond would start in fall of 1996 and all the Dumond themed material would be together even though some of it came up in 2001, 2002. While I appreciate Jeremy's attempts to make the article better, adding content to the criticisms section will bring back POV structure complaints. Secondly, I think this article is not long enough yet to justify breaking into pieces. The first attempt which was to break out the criticism/controversies section in a separate page ended with merging the page back into the main article. The second attempt, which was a proposal for a Governorship section, ended with votes for oppose. However, if someone wants to make that argument, then the first thing which should be done is to put David Huckabee paragraph on the David Huckabee page and the second thing is to put the investments criticism on the presidential page. Jmegill ( talk) 05:17, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
We are not going to create a new "Criticism" subsection every time a fringe interest group criticizes a candidate. The "Biblically Responsible Investing Institute" criticized Huckabee (along with Romney, McCain and Thompson) for investing in companies that are not up to their "standards". This includes Johnson & Johnson, Microsoft, General Electric and Berkshire-Hathaway. Anyone investing in those companies-- directly OR THROUGH MUTUAL FUNDS -- is guilty in the eyes of th e BRI. By this group's standards, almost any investor in America would be criticized. I couldn't find many news stories about BRI, but here is one. http://www.worldnewspaperpublishing.com/news/FullStory.asp?loc=TCW&id=1572 Paisan30 ( talk) 04:52, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
BRII is well known and their interests are compatible with Huckabee. Since when does Microsoft and Berkshire Hathaway promote conservative causes? Bill Gates invested in gay rights groups and Warren Buffet is campaigning for Obama. The article you cited says the BRII approves of three of the ten top companies in America. The top companies are more likely to be disapproved as they are huge conglomerates and pressured to have a good public image. We need to present the information and let the reader draw their own conclusion. They post legitimate reasons why they do not approve of each company and these reasons are against what Huckabee claims to stand for. Regardless if you classify BRII as "fringe" it doesn't change the fact Huckabee is investing in companies that support socially liberal causes and this was picked up by the mainstream media.
Jeremy221 ( talk) 07:06, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
I was thinking of starting an article which lists people who have a connection with Mike Huckabee (and their relationship to Huckabee) would be good for tying together loose information. List of major donors, long time staff members, campaign workers, people who are on the same committees, etc. What do you think? Jmegill ( talk) 08:44, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
I added the following to describe Huckabee's personality
"Huckabee's personality has been described in positive terms as "gentle and warm"[170], "charming"[171],"friendly, teddy-bear"[172],and "engaging, warm, relaxed, and persuasive".[173]. Huckabee's personality has been described in negative terms as "petty, thin-skinned, self-righteous"[174], and "somewhat vindictive"[175]. Mixed descriptions include "best of leaders and the worst of thin-skinned pols"[176] and "charming and aloof"[177]"
I think Huckabee can not be understood without knowing about his personality - good and bad. comments welcome. Jmegill ( talk) 18:29, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
For what it's worth, of the articles for the 15 major Dem and GOP candidates still running for president, this is the last one that still has a "Controversies" or "Criticisms" section or subarticle. All the others have dismantled, with their contents disbursed and integrated into appropriate sections of the main article or other subarticles. See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject United States presidential elections#Status of "controversies" pages for the full list, and a record of the discussions and dismantlings. Wasted Time R ( talk) 13:55, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
What happened to the lead? It should be two-three paragraphs according to WP:LEAD and to meet standards of a GA/ FA article. I had expanded the lead to two paragraphs but now it is back to one paragraph. Morphh (talk) 23:00, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
I think it should be deleted. Its note noteworthy.
Jeremy221 ( talk) 22:30, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
>Huckabee supports the death penalty.[132] Blaise ( talk) 14:02, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Is there any logical reason to mark currencies in this article as US$? I think that it's reasonably assumed that currencies referred to in an article would be the native currency, unless otherwise marked. If anyone can point me to a policy on this or give some amazing logical reasons, I'll leave it. Otherwise, this should be corrected. Huckabee's not budgeting with the twoonie. ThuranX ( talk) 14:15, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
"Huckabee supports murder and is a hunter." What does support murder mean? BCapp 14:35, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Looks like someone put it back in there. Definitely needs to be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.196.47.247 ( talk) 19:23, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
I am curious why there is not more information on his religious career? How long did he serve as a minister? Where was his church located? Did he work with youth; was he the senior pastor, etc. This seems like a rather large gap in his history. Does someone have this information to flesh out the article? Given the size of the Southern Baptists in the United States, this is a significant issue in the political arena. -- Storm Rider (talk) 10:20, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Please add [[pt:Mike Huckabee]]. Thanks. Dantadd ( talk) 18:29, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Is there a better picture out there than the one with Huckabee and the microphone? There are some, like [6] and [7], that are on flickr without the right CC license. Maybe someone could go out there and take a picture or otherwise find a better pic of Huckabee without the microphone at the bottom. Calwatch ( talk) —Preceding comment was added at 07:49, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Mike Huckabee is many things, including a good and decent guy. That is where his association with Dr. K.A. Paul comes to play, trying to do what is right and helping the needy. KA Paul is a Christian evangelist who promotes peace and end to poverty, and has "counseled" third world dictators like Charles Taylor, Sadaam Hussein, Libyan leader Muammar al-Gaddafi and others in the category. Huckabee has endorsed Paul and his work [8], They traveled with Paul from February, 26 through March, 4 2002 on KA Paul's 747sp "Global Peace One", and then Gov. Huckabee hosted a State dinner on July, 11 2005 for Paul and his organization. The fact that Huckabee has invested time and trust into Paul is noteworthy for a guy who wants to be our president. Whether or not K.A. Paul's activities are positive in certain circles or not is a matter for public consumption along with Huckabee's time and attention to this individual. I would't put it on the article page at the moment, but want to hear from others on the matter first.- Juda S. Engelmayer ( talk) 18:10, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
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