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This article contains a translation of Dinastía_mihránida from es.wikipedia. ( 99035001 et seq.) |
I rewrote most of the article. Vachagan III had nothing to do with Mihranids, it was a previous ruling dynasty of Albania. Grandmaster 10:12, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Your information is not sourced. You have no idea what are you talking about. You added completely irrelevant info. The source that you used also talks about this dynasty, but in the next paragraph:
It is not impossible that, after the disappearance of the monarchy, certain dynasties may have asserted their authority on a regional basis and secured recognition of themselves by the Sasanian government (cf. Markwart, Eranshahr, p. 119). This would have been the position of the Mihrakan family, which claimed to be of Sasanian extraction (for genealogy, see Movses, History 1.17, tr. p. 109; on its doubtful authenticity, cf. N. Akinian, Handes Amsorya, Venice, 1953, p. 68; Dowsett, tr. of Movses, History, p. 107, n. 3).
Mihrakan = Mihranid. As I said before, Vachagan was not Mihranid, make your research before editing topics you are not familiar with. Also, there's a reason why this family was called Mihranid, i.e. because it was founded by Mihran. Why did you remove the quote from Kalankatuatsi? Grandmaster 06:00, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Also note that Iranica also refers to "that Russian source that we always use", i.e. Movses Kalankatuatsi. It is also available in English, but not online. It is number one source on the history of Albania. Grandmaster 06:32, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Interesting double standard. So Armenians boundaries as a geographic notion never changed, but Azerbaijans did? Iranica also says several times that the territories of the present day Republic of Azerbaijan were either ruled by Armenians or incorporated into Armenia. Good double standard Grandmaster, but it doesnt matter to me, you can cling on to whatever you like, but just remember your logic can always be used with regards to Armenia. Azerbaijani 16:56, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
References
I dont think the article should be split up into several short paragraphs at this stage, as the article is too short. Its best for it all to be one paragraph. Azerbaijani 05:56, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
I added information about the aftermath of the fall of the dynasty. If you have a minorsky source that says Sahl was Albanian, please post the text here and then also add that he may have been Albanian to the article. Hajji Piruz 15:18, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Sahl was a prince of Albania, which would make him an Albanian prince, but this does not mean his origin was Albanian. Minorsky says he was Armenian. I moved the Minorsky source by where it says Armenian. I also added a hidden text that says the source you cited does not clearly say Sahl was Albanian. Hajji Piruz 18:04, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
I created an article for Sahl, so that we dont clutter up this article with info about his origin. Also, Minorsky does say that his origin is not clearly stated, but he also says that by the evidence we should assume he was Armenian. Hajji Piruz 19:20, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
The previous ruling dynasty was not Armenian, it was Parthian. See Arsacid Dynasty of Caucasian Albania. Grandmaster ( talk) 05:21, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
And when began the spring, he [Mihr] went up to the upper part of the Gardman gavar. Here he insidiously invited tot him twelve men, who were authorities of that place, stabbed them all to death by sword and appropriated that country. Thereafter he lived long time peacefully and died.
He had a son, whose name was Armael, who bore Vard. Vard bore Vardan the Valiant, who in three years constructed the fortress of Gardman.
This [Vardan] harbored in his heart treason against the ancient Haykazunian Family of Yerranshahiks, about whom we wrote above. He [Vardan] politely invited them to the dinner, but made for them a lethal dinner, mixing their blood with the food. He beheaded sixty men, leaving of them only Zarmihr Yerranshahik, who was related by marriage to his Family. In these way they [Mihrakans] took possession of Aghuank. They also subjugated the wild tribes of the Caucasus.
Movses Kalanatuatsi, History of Aghuank, critical text and introduction by Varag Arrakelian. "Matenadaran" Institute of old manuscripts. Armenian SSR Academy of Sciences Publishing, Yerevan 1983. P. 171-172
That the Haykazuns were Armenians, I have already prooven on talk:Artsakh. -- Vacio ( talk) 15:36, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
Parishan, the stuff you quoted above is very interesting and should react on it in detail, but. What you're trying to do, is to "correct" a primary source, or at least it's translation, which is a pure Original Research. Even the Russian translation you present as "contradict" with the English one, translates "Haykazuns" on an other place (reffering to the same Erranshahiks!) - "армянскими мужами" (see Kaghankatvatsi, book 3, chapter 23. And compare it with my quote here. So you are actually misleading the reader beacause both translation state that the previous Family was Armenian. ...claiming Haykazean origin was just a way to cover up one's immemorable roots saying nothing about their real origins. You see, you are misquoting sources, in this case it is not their 'immemorable origin' the question. -- Vacio ( talk) 04:39, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
Kalankatvatsi, 3.23: With truly and trusty words we have learned, that the Haykazuns (Հայկազանց ) related themselves by marriage with the Mihrakan House and by this relationship they decided to reign together the state of the eastern edges - Aghuank. (...) Mihrian, a descendant of the Sasanian dynasty, came from Persia and established a feudality. Their names, from father to son, are: Mihr, Armael, Vard, Vardan the Valiant, who believed in Christ, but not the one who built the Castle of Gardman. His son - Vard. Vard became the father of Varaz Grigor - the first prince of Aghuank, who had four sons: Varaz Perozh, Jvanshir, Hezut Khosrov and Varazman. As from here, we will quote only the names of the first-bornes, which are known to the Haykazuns (Հայկազինսն) leaving out the others. They are: Varaz Perozh, Varaz Trdat, Vardan, Nerseh Dzhndak [the Cruel], who could pluke the hairs of one�s head and make him bald, and the feats of sufferers were bound with iron chains.
Movses Kalankatvatsi, History of Aghvank, translation, foreword and notes by Varag Arrakelian. "Hayastan" publishing, Yerevan 1969, p. 265.
Проверив, мы доподлинно узнали, что род Миhрана породнился сватовством с армянскими мужами, чтобы в результате родства этого совместно властвовать над Восточным краем Алуанком.... Из них один только Вачаган Благочестивый построил церквей в Восточном [крае] по числу дней в году. После его смерти их род пришел в упадок. В нахарарстве утвердился род Миhра из Сасанидов, переселившегося из Персии. Вот их имена по порядку от отца к сыну – Миhр, Армаэл, Вард, Вардан Храбрый, уверовавший в Христа (а не тот, кто построил крепость Гардмана), его сын Вард. Вард родил Вараз-Григора, первого [в этом роду] князя Алуанка. Он родил четырех сыновей – Вараз-Перожа, Джуаншера, Иезут-Хосрова и Варазмана. Из них мы перечислим по порядку имена [потомков] старшего сына, известных у армян [остальных же пропустим]. Вот они: Вараз-Перож, Вараз-Трдат, Вардан, Нерсеh Дыжндак, последний приказывал рвать волосы на головах [верующих] людей, а на ноги им надевать железные оковы,
From now, quote sources which speak about the etnicity, not the origin, of the Erranashahiks. And don't artifically contrast sources, when they are not so. -- Vacio ( talk) 09:12, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
The title Eranshahik,7 under which the historian of Albania presents him in this passage, is probably given him in anticipation, for immediately after, and under the same year, Moses speaks of the murder of the last Mihranid Varaz-Trdad by a certain Ter-Nerseh P'ilippean.
7. Which must be understood only as a sublimation of the more modest local title Aran-shahik.
With treachery in his hart, he invited the Erranshahiks, the ancient native Armenian (haykazean) family about whom we have written above in this history, as if to a banquet. Preparing for them the bread of perdition , he gave it them to eat, and at that feast of their own blood he beheaded sixty man. He spared only Zarmihr Erranshahik, the husband of one of the daughters of his family.
This article is rated Stub-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article contains a translation of Dinastía_mihránida from es.wikipedia. ( 99035001 et seq.) |
I rewrote most of the article. Vachagan III had nothing to do with Mihranids, it was a previous ruling dynasty of Albania. Grandmaster 10:12, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Your information is not sourced. You have no idea what are you talking about. You added completely irrelevant info. The source that you used also talks about this dynasty, but in the next paragraph:
It is not impossible that, after the disappearance of the monarchy, certain dynasties may have asserted their authority on a regional basis and secured recognition of themselves by the Sasanian government (cf. Markwart, Eranshahr, p. 119). This would have been the position of the Mihrakan family, which claimed to be of Sasanian extraction (for genealogy, see Movses, History 1.17, tr. p. 109; on its doubtful authenticity, cf. N. Akinian, Handes Amsorya, Venice, 1953, p. 68; Dowsett, tr. of Movses, History, p. 107, n. 3).
Mihrakan = Mihranid. As I said before, Vachagan was not Mihranid, make your research before editing topics you are not familiar with. Also, there's a reason why this family was called Mihranid, i.e. because it was founded by Mihran. Why did you remove the quote from Kalankatuatsi? Grandmaster 06:00, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Also note that Iranica also refers to "that Russian source that we always use", i.e. Movses Kalankatuatsi. It is also available in English, but not online. It is number one source on the history of Albania. Grandmaster 06:32, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Interesting double standard. So Armenians boundaries as a geographic notion never changed, but Azerbaijans did? Iranica also says several times that the territories of the present day Republic of Azerbaijan were either ruled by Armenians or incorporated into Armenia. Good double standard Grandmaster, but it doesnt matter to me, you can cling on to whatever you like, but just remember your logic can always be used with regards to Armenia. Azerbaijani 16:56, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
References
I dont think the article should be split up into several short paragraphs at this stage, as the article is too short. Its best for it all to be one paragraph. Azerbaijani 05:56, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
I added information about the aftermath of the fall of the dynasty. If you have a minorsky source that says Sahl was Albanian, please post the text here and then also add that he may have been Albanian to the article. Hajji Piruz 15:18, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Sahl was a prince of Albania, which would make him an Albanian prince, but this does not mean his origin was Albanian. Minorsky says he was Armenian. I moved the Minorsky source by where it says Armenian. I also added a hidden text that says the source you cited does not clearly say Sahl was Albanian. Hajji Piruz 18:04, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
I created an article for Sahl, so that we dont clutter up this article with info about his origin. Also, Minorsky does say that his origin is not clearly stated, but he also says that by the evidence we should assume he was Armenian. Hajji Piruz 19:20, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
The previous ruling dynasty was not Armenian, it was Parthian. See Arsacid Dynasty of Caucasian Albania. Grandmaster ( talk) 05:21, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
And when began the spring, he [Mihr] went up to the upper part of the Gardman gavar. Here he insidiously invited tot him twelve men, who were authorities of that place, stabbed them all to death by sword and appropriated that country. Thereafter he lived long time peacefully and died.
He had a son, whose name was Armael, who bore Vard. Vard bore Vardan the Valiant, who in three years constructed the fortress of Gardman.
This [Vardan] harbored in his heart treason against the ancient Haykazunian Family of Yerranshahiks, about whom we wrote above. He [Vardan] politely invited them to the dinner, but made for them a lethal dinner, mixing their blood with the food. He beheaded sixty men, leaving of them only Zarmihr Yerranshahik, who was related by marriage to his Family. In these way they [Mihrakans] took possession of Aghuank. They also subjugated the wild tribes of the Caucasus.
Movses Kalanatuatsi, History of Aghuank, critical text and introduction by Varag Arrakelian. "Matenadaran" Institute of old manuscripts. Armenian SSR Academy of Sciences Publishing, Yerevan 1983. P. 171-172
That the Haykazuns were Armenians, I have already prooven on talk:Artsakh. -- Vacio ( talk) 15:36, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
Parishan, the stuff you quoted above is very interesting and should react on it in detail, but. What you're trying to do, is to "correct" a primary source, or at least it's translation, which is a pure Original Research. Even the Russian translation you present as "contradict" with the English one, translates "Haykazuns" on an other place (reffering to the same Erranshahiks!) - "армянскими мужами" (see Kaghankatvatsi, book 3, chapter 23. And compare it with my quote here. So you are actually misleading the reader beacause both translation state that the previous Family was Armenian. ...claiming Haykazean origin was just a way to cover up one's immemorable roots saying nothing about their real origins. You see, you are misquoting sources, in this case it is not their 'immemorable origin' the question. -- Vacio ( talk) 04:39, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
Kalankatvatsi, 3.23: With truly and trusty words we have learned, that the Haykazuns (Հայկազանց ) related themselves by marriage with the Mihrakan House and by this relationship they decided to reign together the state of the eastern edges - Aghuank. (...) Mihrian, a descendant of the Sasanian dynasty, came from Persia and established a feudality. Their names, from father to son, are: Mihr, Armael, Vard, Vardan the Valiant, who believed in Christ, but not the one who built the Castle of Gardman. His son - Vard. Vard became the father of Varaz Grigor - the first prince of Aghuank, who had four sons: Varaz Perozh, Jvanshir, Hezut Khosrov and Varazman. As from here, we will quote only the names of the first-bornes, which are known to the Haykazuns (Հայկազինսն) leaving out the others. They are: Varaz Perozh, Varaz Trdat, Vardan, Nerseh Dzhndak [the Cruel], who could pluke the hairs of one�s head and make him bald, and the feats of sufferers were bound with iron chains.
Movses Kalankatvatsi, History of Aghvank, translation, foreword and notes by Varag Arrakelian. "Hayastan" publishing, Yerevan 1969, p. 265.
Проверив, мы доподлинно узнали, что род Миhрана породнился сватовством с армянскими мужами, чтобы в результате родства этого совместно властвовать над Восточным краем Алуанком.... Из них один только Вачаган Благочестивый построил церквей в Восточном [крае] по числу дней в году. После его смерти их род пришел в упадок. В нахарарстве утвердился род Миhра из Сасанидов, переселившегося из Персии. Вот их имена по порядку от отца к сыну – Миhр, Армаэл, Вард, Вардан Храбрый, уверовавший в Христа (а не тот, кто построил крепость Гардмана), его сын Вард. Вард родил Вараз-Григора, первого [в этом роду] князя Алуанка. Он родил четырех сыновей – Вараз-Перожа, Джуаншера, Иезут-Хосрова и Варазмана. Из них мы перечислим по порядку имена [потомков] старшего сына, известных у армян [остальных же пропустим]. Вот они: Вараз-Перож, Вараз-Трдат, Вардан, Нерсеh Дыжндак, последний приказывал рвать волосы на головах [верующих] людей, а на ноги им надевать железные оковы,
From now, quote sources which speak about the etnicity, not the origin, of the Erranashahiks. And don't artifically contrast sources, when they are not so. -- Vacio ( talk) 09:12, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
The title Eranshahik,7 under which the historian of Albania presents him in this passage, is probably given him in anticipation, for immediately after, and under the same year, Moses speaks of the murder of the last Mihranid Varaz-Trdad by a certain Ter-Nerseh P'ilippean.
7. Which must be understood only as a sublimation of the more modest local title Aran-shahik.
With treachery in his hart, he invited the Erranshahiks, the ancient native Armenian (haykazean) family about whom we have written above in this history, as if to a banquet. Preparing for them the bread of perdition , he gave it them to eat, and at that feast of their own blood he beheaded sixty man. He spared only Zarmihr Erranshahik, the husband of one of the daughters of his family.