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The Ancient Concept of The Middle Way hello!
“The Middle Way” is one of the most ancient concepts of meditation in the world even before the Buddha time. Long lost to humanity, it was rediscovered by Buddha more than 2,500 years ago.
Lord Buddha referred to “The Middle Way” as a path that leads to enlightenment by avoiding the two extremes of sensual indulgence and self-mortification. And from avoiding both extremes, one will gain vision and knowledge that leads to Peace, Supreme Knowledge and Enlightenment.
However, according to many well-known Meditation Masters, the real knowledge of meditation practice on the path of “The Middle Way” had been lost from this world for about 500 years after the passing away of the Lord Buddha.
The Re-discovery of The Middle Way
“The Middle Way” concept of meditation became lucid and more practical to meditation practitioners again in 1916 after the attainment of “Dhammakaya” of Luang Pu Wat Paknam (The late Abbot of Wat Paknam), a renowned Buddhist Monk and a celebrated Meditation Master.
Luang Pu is the one who laid his life down in the condition of gaining the supreme truth of The Lord Buddha. In 1916, at the age of 33, he had sat down in the posture of meditation and made a vow that he would never rise up again and sat till death if he could not find the supreme truth of the Lord Buddha. And with his strong determination, he meditated the whole night until he finally revealed the real path and the body of supreme truth, “The Middle Way and The Dhammakaya”.
The word “Dhammakaya” is an ancient word means the Body of Enlightenment (Dhamma means the truth or the enlightenment and Kaya means body). This term was found many places in many old Buddhist scriptures both in Theravada and Mahayana schools. It is not the new term or new theory from the Teaching of the Lord Buddha.
Dhammakaya is the body that transformed Prince Sidhatta to The Lord Buddha. The enlightenment of the historical Buddha is explained as his mind became perfectly refined and purified to the same level of the refinement and purity of the Dhammakaya, and thus attains the body of enlightenment. The Dhammakaya is therefore seen as central to the Teaching of the Lord Buddha.
Dhammakaya is a source of peace, wisdom and true happiness, exists in all human beings and can be attained through the process of self-refinement and self-purification.
Dhammakaya Meditation Technique
Dhammakaya Meditation Technique was rediscovered by Luang Pu Wat Paknam, the late Abbot of Wat Paknam. With his great work of meditation, he found that the station of stillness or the gateway of The Middle Way is at “The Center of the Body” around two-finger width above the navel. And the center of the body is the best point that any meditation practitioner should lay the mind down upon.
The technique is simple but effective. Just keep your body and mind relaxed and maintain your attention slightly at the center of the body. Once you touch or feel the station of stillness at the center of your body, you will experience inner peace, true happiness and the transforming power that Dhammakaya Meditation can provide for every aspect of your life.
Although Dhammakaya Meditation was developed as a technique by the Lord Buddha, its practice is not limited to Buddhists. The practice has nothing to do with any organized religion or sectarianism. For this reason, it can be freely practiced by everyone without conflict due to race, creed or religion. People from many religious backgrounds have experienced the benefits of Dhammakaya Meditation and have found no conflict with their profession of faith
Please find more story of Middle Way Dhammakaya Meditation from: http://www.dhammakaya.or.th http://www.meditationthai.org http://www.suanpetchkaew.com Or Samarth Pochachan info@mcc.co.th
I was not aware that the Middle way was the same as the Eightfold Path, or at least sufficiently similar to justify the phrase "It however would be more accurate to see it as another name for the Noble Eightfold Path", regardless of the quote supplied to justify it.
Removed text:
"The middle way discovered by a Perfect One avoids both these extremes; it gives vision, it gives knowledge, and it leads to peace, to direct acquaintance, to discovery, to nibbana. And what is that middle way? It is simply the noble eightfold path, that is to say, right view, right intention; right speech, right action, right livelihood; right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. That is the middle way discovered by a Perfect One, which gives vision, which gives knowledge, and which leads to peace, to direct acquaintance, to discovery, to nibbana." Gautama Buddha from the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta.
I am removing both and invite comments on the matter below. Rentwa 14:11, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Over the last day and a half, I expanded this article to the point of nearly re-writing it. Up until yesterday, the article had the following text:
Right now, the article looks like this [1].
Honestly, in my mind, when I've passed over this article in the past, I felt this initial text was sufficient and did not feel compelled to do any massive editing. But then, during the last week, I saw the above text doubled in size due to a retreat-center advertisement and associated text that, from the stance of Buddhism's 2500 year tradition, misappropriated the concept of "Middle Way" for a non-Buddhist meditation practice reportedly developed last century. So, to put it nicely, I decided that the best way to address such a misrepresentation of this core Buddhist concept was to expand this article with accurate (to the degree I'm capable and inclined to do) information that proportionally represents this 2500-year-old concept. (Though, admittedly, I'm embarrassingly weak on Mahayana/Vajrayana material. I'd be grateful for any intelligent expansion of this pitiful section.)
In so doing, against my editorially conservative instincts (that is, I try to avoid changing what others have justifiably written), I significantly rewrote the above original text. Here, I want to explain why I felt it was important to do so.
1. Changing "(Sanskrit Madhyama Marga, Pali Majjhima Magga)" to "(Skt.: madhyamā-pratipad; Pali: majjhimā patipadā)"
2. Eliding "expounded by Gautama Buddha"
3. Changed "Sometimes summarised" to "In general"
4. Changed "self-indulgence" to "sensual indulgence"
5. Elided "Buddhist philosophy"
6. Moved information regarding the Dhammacakka Sutta
I think this covers it. Any questions or protests or feedback, please let me know here or on my talk page. Thanks. With metta, LarryR ( talk) 04:29, 2 December 2006 (UTC) [Updated 13:01, 2 December 2006 (UTC)]
In the second quoted paragraph in the first section, not including the intro, the word 'Nibbana' is used. Is this word in use? Or is it an error/vandalism? J Milburn 02:44, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
I just re-capitalized the first letters of "Middle Way" and "Middle Path" because this is the way these phrases appear in the referenced source texts by Harvey (2007) and Dhamma (1997), respectively. Also a quick review of the first few pages of a Google search on "Middle Way" suggests that majority of non-WP, Buddhism-related pages capitalize this phrase's initial letters (although this is far from universal). So, while I think this article should maintain capitalization of the initial letters, I'm wondering if this means that this article should be moved over the redirect Middle Way? Thanks for any feedback, Larry Rosenfeld ( talk) 20:38, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
There's hardly anything about this. In particular, no evidence is given to support the claim of the 1st para that the term is used in different senses between it & Theravada. Peter jackson ( talk) 11:51, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Based on the aforementioned search of the SLTP Pali Canon for majjhimā paṭipadā, the following suttas were identified:
There are two references to the Visuddhimagga in the above-mentioned La Trobe U. search. While I'm late for an important call right now, I'll look into those Vsm texts in the next couple of hours -- perhaps these will provide the expected link between the Theravada and Mahayana conceptuatlizations.... With metta, Larry Rosenfeld ( talk) 20:42, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Based on the above-mentioned La Trobe U. search (using the nominative of majjhimā paṭipadā), the Visuddhimagga (Vsm) includes two instances:
Well, this latter citation could perhaps be used to support that a (post-canonical) Theravada source provides an elaboration upon majjhimā paṭipadā in a manner consistent with Nagarjuna. (Given that the Visuddhimagga was written centuries after Nagarjuna, is it possible that the Visuddhimagga and its predecessors incorporated Nagarjuna's thinking?) I guess one possible question is does this latter citation's reference to majjhimā paṭipadā necessarily refer to the "Middle Way" ... but Harvey's at least seems to think so....
Given the latter citation in the Visuddhimagga and Harvey's text (is it possible Harvey based his text on the Visuddhimagga regarding this and simply extrapolated back to the Suttapitaka?), in the next two days, I'll try to change this article's intro (and other text) so that it does not suggest a dichotomy as it does now. Or, of course, Peter or anyone else, feel free to do so before/in tandem with me.
Peter, was this what you were getting at? If so, thanks for pointing the way. Otherwise, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts. Thanks again (GTG),
Larry Rosenfeld (
talk) 21:39, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
I keep this page on my watchlist and saw that User:Mitsube was trying to contribute to the article's lead section that the Pali Canon mentions a middle way between the extremes of existence and non-existence. Sure, the Sutta quoted above doesn't say "middle way," but I don't think it's much of a stretch either. Maybe I'm missing something in this debate? Otherwise, what middle is it talking about if not the middle way? So if the Pali Canon, as cited above, shows that the middle way refers to more than just avoiding the extremes of sensual indulgence and asceticism, then perhaps this could be cited in the "Theravada contexts" section (if not the lead)? Emptymountains ( talk) 01:53, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
Now let us see what you removed.Two aspects of the Buddha's teachings, the philosophical and the practical, which are mutually dependent, are clearly enunciated in two discourses, the Kaccaayanagotta-sutta and the Dhammacakkappavattana-sutta, both of which are held in high esteem by almost all schools of Buddhism in spite of their sectarian rivalries. The Kaccaayanagotta-sutta, quoted by almost all the major schools of Buddhism, deals with the philosophical "middle path", placed against the backdrop of two absolutistic theories in Indian philosophy, namely, permanent existence (atthitaa) propounded in the early Upanishads and nihilistic non-existence (natthitaa) suggested by the Materialists.
The "idea" clearly refers to the preceding phrase: "direct knowledge that transcends seemingly antithetical claims about existence." I do not know why you had such a hasty, excessive reaction to this. I am going to try to make this sentence easier to understand (I am not a native English speaker so I may not have done the best job) and with the citation. Mitsube ( talk) 04:24, 5 September 2008 (UTC)In later Theravada texts as well as in Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism, the Middle Way refers to direct knowledge that transcends seemingly antithetical claims about existence; this idea is also found in the Canon.
The problem for me in the Theravada contexts section (excluding its own subsections) is the seeming contrast between "In Theravada Buddhism's Pali Canon..." vs. "Later Pali literature..." It gives the impression that the Canon presents the middle way only in terms of sensual indulgence and asceticism, as if the Pali Canon does not talk about a middle view between existence and non-existence (i.e., that the latter is only to be found in "later Pali literature" such as "the [Canon's] commentaries"). So while the Sutta may be cited later in this artcile, this section as it stands is potentially misleading. Is this section only about the phrase "the middle way," or about the middle way in general? Thank you for your time. Emptymountains ( talk) 12:05, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
A helpful link to look at [3]. Emptymountains ( talk) 03:49, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
During fruitful on-going talk-page discussion with Mitsube, the idea of more extensively quoting from Bhikkhu Bodhi in order to better contextualize SN 12.15 has come up. To allow for this possibility, as well as to allow for others to assess the elision decisions I made when including Bodhi's text in an end note to this article, I'm including here the whole two paragraphs that Bodhi includes in his "In the Buddha's Words" (2005), Chapter IX, pp. 315-316, regarding SN 12.15 (a similar statement by Bodhi can be found in his translation of the "Samyutta Nikaya," 2000, pp. 521-522):
If one is inclined to include more of this text in this article, it's fine with me, though I think the material not currently included goes beyond what is called for in this article. With metta, Larry Rosenfeld ( talk) 02:22, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
page 33 of The Selfless Mind. Then,It can thus be said that, while an empirical self exists - or rather consists of a changing flow of mental and physical states which neither unchangingly exists nor does not exist - not metaphysical Self can be apprehended.
(page 39 of The Selfless Mind.) I think that that is a key idea and explains the Sabbasava Sutta's warning against thinking "I have no self." It explains why he did not flat-out say "there is no self" also, though he did say that self "cannot be apprehended" which has a different shade of meaning. Harvey seems to agree with TB to some extent:"It is a curious fact that the early Suttas see even Annihilationism, which the Buddha equated with denial of s/Self, as tied up with belief in a Self."
I think that other people who thing that "atta" is in the Buddha's thought a philosophical "no-go" area have also missed the point. I will add this material in some form at some point. Mitsube ( talk) 06:59, 17 October 2008 (UTC)One uses 'not-Self', then, as a reason to let go of things, not to 'prove' that there is no Self. There is no need to give some philosophical denial of 'Self'; the idea simply withers away, or evaporates in the light of knowledge, when it is seen that the concept does not apply to anything at all, or, as the Suttas put it, when it is seen that everything is 'empty' of Self. A philosophical denial is just a view, a theory, which may be agreed with or not. It does not get one to actually examine all the things that one really does identiy with, consciously or unconsciously, as Self or I.
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?as_q=middle+way+Gautama&num=10&btnG=Search+Scholar&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_occt=title&as_sauthors=&as_publication=&as_ylo=&as_yhi=&as_allsubj=all&hl=en -- 58.38.43.67 ( talk) 03:23, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
but
Why is that...???-- 58.38.43.67 ( talk) 03:23, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
The introduction used the following metaphor of a triangle to present the Middle Way.
That first sentence about not meaning a "mid point" is okay, but I disagree strongly with the characterization of a "high middle point" as a better term. This "high middle point" immage is just another version of the error of a "mid point." The characterization of the Middle Way as a triangular apex is really a "third way" image not a Middle Way image. The traditional image of the Middle Way is the lute string that won't produce a harmonious sound when it is tuned either too loose or too tight. In some stories hearing a lute player on a boat was the real life experience that opened up the meaning of the Middle Way to Buddha as he sat by the river. As the image of the tuned lute string indicates, the Middle Way is dynamic, not static as suggested by a "high middle point" image. Based on these concerns I've edited the above sentences to read:
( Gregory Wonderwheel ( talk) 18:35, 17 September 2010 (UTC))
This phrase is capitalized as "Middle Way" almost universally, both here at Wikipedia and in other sources. I propose to move this page to Middle Way (over the redirect that exists there). I believe it was created with a lowercase 'w' by accident and this accident should be fixed. WikiDan61 ChatMe! ReadMe!! 11:05, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
This article has been edited entirely on the assumption that the concept of the Middle Way must be described and verified in traditional Buddhist terms. However, the Middle Way is also a philosophical and practical idea that can be understood universally, in terms beyond the Buddhist tradition. It happens to have been articulated and promoted by the Buddhist tradition, but that doesn't mean that it should be understood solely in those terms. By way of comparison, the concept of love is central to Christian tradition, and this point would be noted in any article about Christian doctrine. However, if someone added a section that was not referred to Christian sources in an article on love, it would not be justifiable to delete it just on those grounds. I expect that if I were to add a section on the Middle Way beyond the Buddhist tradition to this article, which even defines the concept solely in terms of traditional Buddhism, it would be deleted by the other contributors. But the Middle Way is no more the monopolistic property of the Buddhist tradition than love is solely the property of Christianity. Evenbalance ( talk) 15:13, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
As the editors above mention, the common name is capitalized 'Middle Way'. I tried to move it but there is already a redirect. If there is no objection can someone who knows how to work around the code for the redirect please move the page name? Thanks. Randy Kryn 12:12 1 November, 2014 (UTC)
I'm not a personal friend of Mr. Hawk, but I suspect that the assertion in the first sentence of the paragraph under "Noble Eightfold Path" is inaccurate. As of 1/14/2015 it reads:
"The term Middle Way was used in the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta, the first teaching that Tony Hawk delivered after his awakening."
There is a citation to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samyutta_Nikaya, which doesn't mention Hawk.
I'm posting to request that someone with more knowledge or Wikipedia editing experience than myself rectify this humorous falsehood. If I were to edit it myself, I'd probably just replace Tony Hawk with "Jolly old Buddha" which is probably just as bad. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.160.151.53 ( talk) 08:26, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
This edit revrted my re-ordering of the info in this article. I see no rationale for having two sections on Mahayana, not for including a section called "Common Elements of Buddhism" which is about elements from the Theravada Pali canon and Theravada Buddhism. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 19:44, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
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The Ancient Concept of The Middle Way hello!
“The Middle Way” is one of the most ancient concepts of meditation in the world even before the Buddha time. Long lost to humanity, it was rediscovered by Buddha more than 2,500 years ago.
Lord Buddha referred to “The Middle Way” as a path that leads to enlightenment by avoiding the two extremes of sensual indulgence and self-mortification. And from avoiding both extremes, one will gain vision and knowledge that leads to Peace, Supreme Knowledge and Enlightenment.
However, according to many well-known Meditation Masters, the real knowledge of meditation practice on the path of “The Middle Way” had been lost from this world for about 500 years after the passing away of the Lord Buddha.
The Re-discovery of The Middle Way
“The Middle Way” concept of meditation became lucid and more practical to meditation practitioners again in 1916 after the attainment of “Dhammakaya” of Luang Pu Wat Paknam (The late Abbot of Wat Paknam), a renowned Buddhist Monk and a celebrated Meditation Master.
Luang Pu is the one who laid his life down in the condition of gaining the supreme truth of The Lord Buddha. In 1916, at the age of 33, he had sat down in the posture of meditation and made a vow that he would never rise up again and sat till death if he could not find the supreme truth of the Lord Buddha. And with his strong determination, he meditated the whole night until he finally revealed the real path and the body of supreme truth, “The Middle Way and The Dhammakaya”.
The word “Dhammakaya” is an ancient word means the Body of Enlightenment (Dhamma means the truth or the enlightenment and Kaya means body). This term was found many places in many old Buddhist scriptures both in Theravada and Mahayana schools. It is not the new term or new theory from the Teaching of the Lord Buddha.
Dhammakaya is the body that transformed Prince Sidhatta to The Lord Buddha. The enlightenment of the historical Buddha is explained as his mind became perfectly refined and purified to the same level of the refinement and purity of the Dhammakaya, and thus attains the body of enlightenment. The Dhammakaya is therefore seen as central to the Teaching of the Lord Buddha.
Dhammakaya is a source of peace, wisdom and true happiness, exists in all human beings and can be attained through the process of self-refinement and self-purification.
Dhammakaya Meditation Technique
Dhammakaya Meditation Technique was rediscovered by Luang Pu Wat Paknam, the late Abbot of Wat Paknam. With his great work of meditation, he found that the station of stillness or the gateway of The Middle Way is at “The Center of the Body” around two-finger width above the navel. And the center of the body is the best point that any meditation practitioner should lay the mind down upon.
The technique is simple but effective. Just keep your body and mind relaxed and maintain your attention slightly at the center of the body. Once you touch or feel the station of stillness at the center of your body, you will experience inner peace, true happiness and the transforming power that Dhammakaya Meditation can provide for every aspect of your life.
Although Dhammakaya Meditation was developed as a technique by the Lord Buddha, its practice is not limited to Buddhists. The practice has nothing to do with any organized religion or sectarianism. For this reason, it can be freely practiced by everyone without conflict due to race, creed or religion. People from many religious backgrounds have experienced the benefits of Dhammakaya Meditation and have found no conflict with their profession of faith
Please find more story of Middle Way Dhammakaya Meditation from: http://www.dhammakaya.or.th http://www.meditationthai.org http://www.suanpetchkaew.com Or Samarth Pochachan info@mcc.co.th
I was not aware that the Middle way was the same as the Eightfold Path, or at least sufficiently similar to justify the phrase "It however would be more accurate to see it as another name for the Noble Eightfold Path", regardless of the quote supplied to justify it.
Removed text:
"The middle way discovered by a Perfect One avoids both these extremes; it gives vision, it gives knowledge, and it leads to peace, to direct acquaintance, to discovery, to nibbana. And what is that middle way? It is simply the noble eightfold path, that is to say, right view, right intention; right speech, right action, right livelihood; right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. That is the middle way discovered by a Perfect One, which gives vision, which gives knowledge, and which leads to peace, to direct acquaintance, to discovery, to nibbana." Gautama Buddha from the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta.
I am removing both and invite comments on the matter below. Rentwa 14:11, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Over the last day and a half, I expanded this article to the point of nearly re-writing it. Up until yesterday, the article had the following text:
Right now, the article looks like this [1].
Honestly, in my mind, when I've passed over this article in the past, I felt this initial text was sufficient and did not feel compelled to do any massive editing. But then, during the last week, I saw the above text doubled in size due to a retreat-center advertisement and associated text that, from the stance of Buddhism's 2500 year tradition, misappropriated the concept of "Middle Way" for a non-Buddhist meditation practice reportedly developed last century. So, to put it nicely, I decided that the best way to address such a misrepresentation of this core Buddhist concept was to expand this article with accurate (to the degree I'm capable and inclined to do) information that proportionally represents this 2500-year-old concept. (Though, admittedly, I'm embarrassingly weak on Mahayana/Vajrayana material. I'd be grateful for any intelligent expansion of this pitiful section.)
In so doing, against my editorially conservative instincts (that is, I try to avoid changing what others have justifiably written), I significantly rewrote the above original text. Here, I want to explain why I felt it was important to do so.
1. Changing "(Sanskrit Madhyama Marga, Pali Majjhima Magga)" to "(Skt.: madhyamā-pratipad; Pali: majjhimā patipadā)"
2. Eliding "expounded by Gautama Buddha"
3. Changed "Sometimes summarised" to "In general"
4. Changed "self-indulgence" to "sensual indulgence"
5. Elided "Buddhist philosophy"
6. Moved information regarding the Dhammacakka Sutta
I think this covers it. Any questions or protests or feedback, please let me know here or on my talk page. Thanks. With metta, LarryR ( talk) 04:29, 2 December 2006 (UTC) [Updated 13:01, 2 December 2006 (UTC)]
In the second quoted paragraph in the first section, not including the intro, the word 'Nibbana' is used. Is this word in use? Or is it an error/vandalism? J Milburn 02:44, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
I just re-capitalized the first letters of "Middle Way" and "Middle Path" because this is the way these phrases appear in the referenced source texts by Harvey (2007) and Dhamma (1997), respectively. Also a quick review of the first few pages of a Google search on "Middle Way" suggests that majority of non-WP, Buddhism-related pages capitalize this phrase's initial letters (although this is far from universal). So, while I think this article should maintain capitalization of the initial letters, I'm wondering if this means that this article should be moved over the redirect Middle Way? Thanks for any feedback, Larry Rosenfeld ( talk) 20:38, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
There's hardly anything about this. In particular, no evidence is given to support the claim of the 1st para that the term is used in different senses between it & Theravada. Peter jackson ( talk) 11:51, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Based on the aforementioned search of the SLTP Pali Canon for majjhimā paṭipadā, the following suttas were identified:
There are two references to the Visuddhimagga in the above-mentioned La Trobe U. search. While I'm late for an important call right now, I'll look into those Vsm texts in the next couple of hours -- perhaps these will provide the expected link between the Theravada and Mahayana conceptuatlizations.... With metta, Larry Rosenfeld ( talk) 20:42, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Based on the above-mentioned La Trobe U. search (using the nominative of majjhimā paṭipadā), the Visuddhimagga (Vsm) includes two instances:
Well, this latter citation could perhaps be used to support that a (post-canonical) Theravada source provides an elaboration upon majjhimā paṭipadā in a manner consistent with Nagarjuna. (Given that the Visuddhimagga was written centuries after Nagarjuna, is it possible that the Visuddhimagga and its predecessors incorporated Nagarjuna's thinking?) I guess one possible question is does this latter citation's reference to majjhimā paṭipadā necessarily refer to the "Middle Way" ... but Harvey's at least seems to think so....
Given the latter citation in the Visuddhimagga and Harvey's text (is it possible Harvey based his text on the Visuddhimagga regarding this and simply extrapolated back to the Suttapitaka?), in the next two days, I'll try to change this article's intro (and other text) so that it does not suggest a dichotomy as it does now. Or, of course, Peter or anyone else, feel free to do so before/in tandem with me.
Peter, was this what you were getting at? If so, thanks for pointing the way. Otherwise, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts. Thanks again (GTG),
Larry Rosenfeld (
talk) 21:39, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
I keep this page on my watchlist and saw that User:Mitsube was trying to contribute to the article's lead section that the Pali Canon mentions a middle way between the extremes of existence and non-existence. Sure, the Sutta quoted above doesn't say "middle way," but I don't think it's much of a stretch either. Maybe I'm missing something in this debate? Otherwise, what middle is it talking about if not the middle way? So if the Pali Canon, as cited above, shows that the middle way refers to more than just avoiding the extremes of sensual indulgence and asceticism, then perhaps this could be cited in the "Theravada contexts" section (if not the lead)? Emptymountains ( talk) 01:53, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
Now let us see what you removed.Two aspects of the Buddha's teachings, the philosophical and the practical, which are mutually dependent, are clearly enunciated in two discourses, the Kaccaayanagotta-sutta and the Dhammacakkappavattana-sutta, both of which are held in high esteem by almost all schools of Buddhism in spite of their sectarian rivalries. The Kaccaayanagotta-sutta, quoted by almost all the major schools of Buddhism, deals with the philosophical "middle path", placed against the backdrop of two absolutistic theories in Indian philosophy, namely, permanent existence (atthitaa) propounded in the early Upanishads and nihilistic non-existence (natthitaa) suggested by the Materialists.
The "idea" clearly refers to the preceding phrase: "direct knowledge that transcends seemingly antithetical claims about existence." I do not know why you had such a hasty, excessive reaction to this. I am going to try to make this sentence easier to understand (I am not a native English speaker so I may not have done the best job) and with the citation. Mitsube ( talk) 04:24, 5 September 2008 (UTC)In later Theravada texts as well as in Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism, the Middle Way refers to direct knowledge that transcends seemingly antithetical claims about existence; this idea is also found in the Canon.
The problem for me in the Theravada contexts section (excluding its own subsections) is the seeming contrast between "In Theravada Buddhism's Pali Canon..." vs. "Later Pali literature..." It gives the impression that the Canon presents the middle way only in terms of sensual indulgence and asceticism, as if the Pali Canon does not talk about a middle view between existence and non-existence (i.e., that the latter is only to be found in "later Pali literature" such as "the [Canon's] commentaries"). So while the Sutta may be cited later in this artcile, this section as it stands is potentially misleading. Is this section only about the phrase "the middle way," or about the middle way in general? Thank you for your time. Emptymountains ( talk) 12:05, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
A helpful link to look at [3]. Emptymountains ( talk) 03:49, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
During fruitful on-going talk-page discussion with Mitsube, the idea of more extensively quoting from Bhikkhu Bodhi in order to better contextualize SN 12.15 has come up. To allow for this possibility, as well as to allow for others to assess the elision decisions I made when including Bodhi's text in an end note to this article, I'm including here the whole two paragraphs that Bodhi includes in his "In the Buddha's Words" (2005), Chapter IX, pp. 315-316, regarding SN 12.15 (a similar statement by Bodhi can be found in his translation of the "Samyutta Nikaya," 2000, pp. 521-522):
If one is inclined to include more of this text in this article, it's fine with me, though I think the material not currently included goes beyond what is called for in this article. With metta, Larry Rosenfeld ( talk) 02:22, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
page 33 of The Selfless Mind. Then,It can thus be said that, while an empirical self exists - or rather consists of a changing flow of mental and physical states which neither unchangingly exists nor does not exist - not metaphysical Self can be apprehended.
(page 39 of The Selfless Mind.) I think that that is a key idea and explains the Sabbasava Sutta's warning against thinking "I have no self." It explains why he did not flat-out say "there is no self" also, though he did say that self "cannot be apprehended" which has a different shade of meaning. Harvey seems to agree with TB to some extent:"It is a curious fact that the early Suttas see even Annihilationism, which the Buddha equated with denial of s/Self, as tied up with belief in a Self."
I think that other people who thing that "atta" is in the Buddha's thought a philosophical "no-go" area have also missed the point. I will add this material in some form at some point. Mitsube ( talk) 06:59, 17 October 2008 (UTC)One uses 'not-Self', then, as a reason to let go of things, not to 'prove' that there is no Self. There is no need to give some philosophical denial of 'Self'; the idea simply withers away, or evaporates in the light of knowledge, when it is seen that the concept does not apply to anything at all, or, as the Suttas put it, when it is seen that everything is 'empty' of Self. A philosophical denial is just a view, a theory, which may be agreed with or not. It does not get one to actually examine all the things that one really does identiy with, consciously or unconsciously, as Self or I.
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?as_q=middle+way+Gautama&num=10&btnG=Search+Scholar&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_occt=title&as_sauthors=&as_publication=&as_ylo=&as_yhi=&as_allsubj=all&hl=en -- 58.38.43.67 ( talk) 03:23, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
but
Why is that...???-- 58.38.43.67 ( talk) 03:23, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
The introduction used the following metaphor of a triangle to present the Middle Way.
That first sentence about not meaning a "mid point" is okay, but I disagree strongly with the characterization of a "high middle point" as a better term. This "high middle point" immage is just another version of the error of a "mid point." The characterization of the Middle Way as a triangular apex is really a "third way" image not a Middle Way image. The traditional image of the Middle Way is the lute string that won't produce a harmonious sound when it is tuned either too loose or too tight. In some stories hearing a lute player on a boat was the real life experience that opened up the meaning of the Middle Way to Buddha as he sat by the river. As the image of the tuned lute string indicates, the Middle Way is dynamic, not static as suggested by a "high middle point" image. Based on these concerns I've edited the above sentences to read:
( Gregory Wonderwheel ( talk) 18:35, 17 September 2010 (UTC))
This phrase is capitalized as "Middle Way" almost universally, both here at Wikipedia and in other sources. I propose to move this page to Middle Way (over the redirect that exists there). I believe it was created with a lowercase 'w' by accident and this accident should be fixed. WikiDan61 ChatMe! ReadMe!! 11:05, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
This article has been edited entirely on the assumption that the concept of the Middle Way must be described and verified in traditional Buddhist terms. However, the Middle Way is also a philosophical and practical idea that can be understood universally, in terms beyond the Buddhist tradition. It happens to have been articulated and promoted by the Buddhist tradition, but that doesn't mean that it should be understood solely in those terms. By way of comparison, the concept of love is central to Christian tradition, and this point would be noted in any article about Christian doctrine. However, if someone added a section that was not referred to Christian sources in an article on love, it would not be justifiable to delete it just on those grounds. I expect that if I were to add a section on the Middle Way beyond the Buddhist tradition to this article, which even defines the concept solely in terms of traditional Buddhism, it would be deleted by the other contributors. But the Middle Way is no more the monopolistic property of the Buddhist tradition than love is solely the property of Christianity. Evenbalance ( talk) 15:13, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
As the editors above mention, the common name is capitalized 'Middle Way'. I tried to move it but there is already a redirect. If there is no objection can someone who knows how to work around the code for the redirect please move the page name? Thanks. Randy Kryn 12:12 1 November, 2014 (UTC)
I'm not a personal friend of Mr. Hawk, but I suspect that the assertion in the first sentence of the paragraph under "Noble Eightfold Path" is inaccurate. As of 1/14/2015 it reads:
"The term Middle Way was used in the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta, the first teaching that Tony Hawk delivered after his awakening."
There is a citation to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samyutta_Nikaya, which doesn't mention Hawk.
I'm posting to request that someone with more knowledge or Wikipedia editing experience than myself rectify this humorous falsehood. If I were to edit it myself, I'd probably just replace Tony Hawk with "Jolly old Buddha" which is probably just as bad. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.160.151.53 ( talk) 08:26, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
This edit revrted my re-ordering of the info in this article. I see no rationale for having two sections on Mahayana, not for including a section called "Common Elements of Buddhism" which is about elements from the Theravada Pali canon and Theravada Buddhism. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 19:44, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
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