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We have been down this road before and I believe the same pattern is beginning again. Please do not revert edits without coming to the Talk page to explain. I am undoing the revert on the basis that it is unexplained and if it continues I will have to ask for page protection yet again.
Susan belt74 ( talk) 17:40, 13 November 2014
Current article reads: "The governments of Saudi Arabia, UAE, Egypt and Bahrain accuse MEE of pro-Muslim Brotherhood bias and receiving Qatari funding."
Really? What about:
(1) Ilan Berman, (2018). Digital Dictators: Media, Authoritarianism, and America’s New Challenge, Rowman & Littlefield, 2018.
"Qatar is purported to fund Al-Arabyal-Jaddeed (The New Arab) and the Middle East Eye)..." (p. 80)
"In turn, HuffPost Arabi had the ability to cross-post to a host of other Al-Jazeera-affiliated media outlets, including Middle East Eye..." (p. 81)
"Moreover, as the Qatari-backed Middle East Eye has suggested..." (p. 90)
Berman is the Vice President of the
American Foreign Policy Council, is an adjunct professor for International Law and Global Security at the
National Defense University, and a member of the Associated Faculty at
Missouri State University's Department of Defense and Strategic Studies.
He is also an Editor of The Journal of International Security Affairs, has advised the United States Department of Defense, agencies of the U.S. government including the CIA, and offices of congressmen on matters of foreign policy and national security.
And is the publisher of at least 330 articles, in Newsweek, CNN, Forbes, Fox News, MSN, The Wall Street Journal, USA Today, U.S. News & World Report, POLITICO, The Hill, Yahoo, Jerusalem Post, National Review, Orlando Sentinel, The Moscow Times, RealClear Politics, Washington Examiner, Foreign Affairs, The Diplomat Magazine, The National Interest, Middle East Forum, etc, and et al.
(2) In a JPost piece by the regional, on-the-ground veteran freelance reporter Jonathan Spyer:
"Mohammad Dahlan, former commander of Fatah’s Preventive Security Service in the Gaza Strip....[has] sued the London-based Middle East Eye, a news website widely considered to have close ties to the Emirate of Qatar..."
With an MA from SOAS and a PhD from LSE, he has been published in The Wall Street Journal, Ha'aretz, The Guardian, The Times, The Weekly Standard, Foreign Policy, and has published books based on his reporting in Bloomsbury (2010), Simon & Schuster (2014), and Routledge (2017) - books that have been praised by such disparate figures as Martin Peretz, former Editor in Chief of The New Republic, Bill Roggio of the Long War Journal, neocon hawk Daniel Pipes of the Middle East Forum, and progressive liberal Daniel J. Levy of Conatus News.
(3) Then there's Taha Naier, writing in the peer-reviewed academic journal European Scientific Journal (ESJ), who says:
"Significant financial incentives were provided. Qatar is investing in part of the Guardian newspaper and founding the Middle East Eye site were examples of Qatar seeking to expand its influence through a media lobby." (Naier, T. (2021). Qatar Soft Power: From Rising to the Crisis. (p. 5)
(4)
Transparency International, in an "An overview of corruption and anti-corruption in Qatar", author Bak writes: "In addition to Al Jazeera, Qatar also funds news networks across the region such as the Middle East Eye..." (p. 3) Yes, it has a footnote to a Times of Israel article as a source, which seems to be good enough for TI, but not nableezy and Co.
(5) And this monograph:
(Коротаев, А. В., Исаев, Л. М., & Мардасов, А. Г. (2019). Протесты 2019 г. в Египте. Предварительный анализ. Системный мониторинг глобальных и региональных рисков) which, looking at the situation in Egypt, identifies the "Turkish-Qatari" anti-Muslim Brotherhood alliance as expressed in what the authors call the "anti-Sisi" media of, citing from Qatar "primarily the Middle East Eye and Al Jazeera" and from Turkey, it's Arabic-language "Mekamleen TV" (based in Istanbul, but owned by Qatar's
Es'hail 2).
EnlightenmentNow1792 ( talk) 06:59, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
This clearly frames the "accusations" as a part of geopolitical mud-slingingThat's one interpretation and may even be true but it doesn't say that and how is demanding the shutdown of MEE and other media (the 13 demands) not political?
widespread understanding that it was founded, is funded, and that it's very raison d'etre is to serve Qatar's foreign policy interests.Your sources don't support that statement at all. I repeat that Bak's views are not endorsed by Transparency International. Nor is the Israeli press, because of the Abraham Accords/Hamas matters, the best sourcing for this issue. Your best source is Berman ie "purported to fund" (which he repeats in a 2021 book). Selfstudier ( talk) 11:43, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
"I repeat that Bak's views are not endorsed by Transparency International." - and you know this how?It says so right at the bottom of the page, do you not read your own sources?
"Nor is the Israeli press, because of the Abraham Accords/Hamas matters, the best sourcing for this issue."I didn't say it wasn't usable at all, I said it was not the best sourcing and it isn't, for the reasons I gave. The ToI Staff have obviously just copied that from somewhere, "based in London and funded by Qatar" is all it has to say on the matter while Berman, a clearly much better source says purportedly funded and you want to credit the ToI over Berman, no way.
Five sources, not "one/two".You have 5 sources saying founded? Where?
It says so right at the bottom of, do you not read your own sources? - I don't make a habit of reading legalese, no. It literally says, at the bottom in grey lettering on every single report in the "Knowledge Hub" on TI:
"This document should not be considered as representative of the [European] Commission or Transparency International’s official position. Neither the European Commission, Transparency International nor any person acting on behalf of the Commission is responsible for the use which might be made of the following information. This Anti-Corruption Helpdesk is operated by Transparency International and funded by the European Union."
If we were to interpret that legal disclaimer as you wish to ("Bak's [sic, and his fellow TI colleagues who acted as reviewers] views are not endorsed by Transparency International") then Transparency International would be almost useless as a source.
The ToI Staff have obviously just copied that from somewhere, "based in London and funded by Qatar" is all it has to say on the matter while Berman, a clearly much better source says purportedly funded and you want to credit the ToI over Berman, no way. I had to LOL at your supposition that "ToI Staff obviously just copied that from somewhere"! "based in London and funded by Qatar" is all it has to say on the matter because it's common knowledge, no grand expose or stellar work of investigative journalism is needed, it's all open source, we know exactly who started it (Al Jazeera employees) and since the token "editor" won't be transparent about his funding, everyone assumes quite correctly that the funding is of the same origin as AJ and all Qatar's other media outlets.
while Berman, a clearly much better source says purportedly funded and you want to credit the ToI over Berman, no way. I absolutely do NOT want to credit the ToI "over" Berman (I introduced Berman as a source for this article, remember?). He writes carefully, as he should, as should we, I just want the "Wiki Voice" to accurately reflect the overwhelming consensus on this issue. If there were RSs that denied it - that would be a different story. But of course there aren't, there can't be. So we may as well reflect what those sources who have bothered to even mention this obvious point, actually say.
You have 5 sources saying founded? Where? - 4 say either founded or funded, 1 says "widely considered to have close ties to the Emirate of Qatar". I'm not to hung up on the specific wording, only that it is given appropriate weight - and not lumped in, or, more like, tagged on the end of - the Gulf Diplomatic Crisis, as it is now. EnlightenmentNow1792 ( talk) 12:52, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
I absolutely do NOT want to credit Berman "over" the ToII think you have got this back to front?
"for the text to reflect the industry and scholarly consensus on this issue"The ONUS is on you to suggest material and demonstrate that your suggestion actually meets this test. So far you have not done so.
Bak is as reliable as you can make him out to be given that he is in effect a self published source. Wow. - EnlightenmentNow1792 ( talk) 13:19, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
(6) Oxford Analytica, 2018. Polarised Gulf media will obscure facts. Emerald Expert Briefings.
"...an English-language website focused on the Middle East and with links to the UAE government was established in London in April 2018 -- aiming to counter the influence of similar Qatar-backed websites, The New Arab and Middle East Eye..."
- EnlightenmentNow1792 ( talk) 13:43, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
(7) Dorsey, J. M. (2017). The Gulf Crisis: Small States Battle it Out, doi:10.2139/ssrn.3003598. (p. 12)
"Middle East Eye, an allegedly Qatar-supported online news website, quoted Turkish intelligence officials as charging that Mohammed Dahlan, an Abu Dhabi-based former Palestinian security chief with close ties to the UAE’s Bin Zayed..."
- EnlightenmentNow1792 ( talk) 14:00, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
(8) "In Middle East Eye, a Qatari-funded online "news" outlet, reports of leaked emails suggest the KSA is desperate..." (p. 262)
Blumi, I. (2018). Destroying Yemen: What Chaos in Arabia Tells Us about the World. United States: University of California Press.
- EnlightenmentNow1792 ( talk) 14:37, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
(9) "Qatar has financed a number of English-speaking news outlets such as the 'Middle East Monitor' in 2009, Al Jazeera's US franchise in 2013, the London-based 'Middle East Eye', headed by former Guardian journalist David Hearst, and the bilingual website 'New Arab (or 'Al-Araby Al-Jadeed') in 2014." - Willi, V. J. (2021). The Fourth Ordeal: A History of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, 1968-2018. Cambridge University Press. (p. 373)
- EnlightenmentNow1792 ( talk) 14:48, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
AN INTERCONNECTED NETWORK
Al-Jazeera is not the only outlet affiliated with Qatar, though its popularity and scope far exceed the rest. Qatar is purported to fund Al-Araby al-Jadeed (The New Arab) and Middle East Eye, which publish in English and Arabic, in addition to the Arabic-only HuffPost Arabi.
Reuters reported that Qatar launched Al-Araby al-Jadeed in 2015...
UAE newspaper The National first disclosed a connection between Middle East Eye (MEE) and Qatar in 2014. An Al Jazeera employee served as a launch consultant for MEE briefly before returning to work on special projects for A-Jazeera’s chairman’s office.
MEE’s website says it is operated by “M.E.E. Ltd.,” and British corporate filings show that Jamal Awn Jamal Bessasso is the only person with significant control in both Middle East Eye and M.E.E. Ltd. According to The National, Bessasso was “a director of planning and human resources” at Al Jazeera and an ex-director for Samalink TV, “the registered agent for the website of the Hamas-controlled al-Quds TV. (p. 80)
EnlightenmentNow1792 ( talk) 14:36, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
The National (Abu Dhabi), is government owned by a government who has made these claims about Qatar. We already say these governments say this. Using state owned entities to say it as though it is not the state saying it is kind of funny. There is no sourcing for anything to be widely believed outside of Qatar's geopolitical rivals. nableezy - 16:08, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
"Remove the 2017 GCC diplomatic spat to the body."
I don't agree and I believe you have no consensus for this.
Selfstudier (
talk)
16:32, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
MEE denial is already present so you want to replace "Middle East Eye has been described as being backed by Qatar." with "Middle East Eye is widely believed to have been founded and funded by Qatar". Personally I would agree to "Middle East Eye is believed by some to have been founded and/or funded by Qatar (refs) while others consider such assertions as allegations (refs)" Please write up the appropriate refs to go with that if you agree. Selfstudier ( talk) 16:55, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
I dont think that quite qualifies as a reliable source on if Qatar funds MEE. nableezy - 18:34, 7 January 2022 (UTC)In Middle East Eye, a Qatari-funded online “news” outlet, reports of leaked emails suggest the KSA is desperate for a way out of its war on Yemen. The article itself functions to exonerate Qatar by highlighting that the KSA “allowed” Trump’s diplomatic team to start secret meetings with Iran a month before Qatar was formally outed for maintaining commercial ties with its Persian neighbor. Even more confusing in this piece supposedly about Yemen is the overt criticism of the “Little Sparta” UAE for its own “imperialistic” ambitions unnecessarily complicating Arabia’s politics. When the authors stick to the actual theme of the article, the suggestion is that Riyadh currently attempts to separate Saleh from the much more threatening “Huthi” rival, a clear indication that this war will not be so easy to end for the KSA and the larger GCC community. David Hearst and Clayton Swisher, “Saudi Crown Prince Wants Out of Yemen War, Leaked Emails Reveal,” Middle East Eye, August 14, 2017.
The best source here is the one that is actually focused on the accusations, The Gulf Crisis: Small States Battle it Out, but even that largely sidesteps the issue. But what it says is Middle East Eye, an allegedly Qatar-supported online news website, and that is it. Even that is fairly weak, but it only supports that there are such allegations. Not that it is widely believed to be true, or that it actually is true. You are asking us to take as fact what several sources describe as allegations, largely on the basis of throwaway lines not focused on the topic. nableezy - 18:41, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
(10) Wall Street Journal: "Jamal Khashoggi’s Death Fuels a Middle East Information War" (Oct. 20, 2018)
"Al Jazeera has repeatedly broken stories on the Turkish investigation into the Saudi dissident’s whereabouts. The Qatari network, like Western media, has cited anonymous Turkish sources and was the first to give graphic details on what happened in the consulate, including how Mr. Khashoggi was beaten, drugged and murdered.
Middle East Eye, another online news organization linked to Qatar, has published a number of exclusive reports on the case. In one, it reported that seven of Prince Mohammed’s bodyguards were among the suspects Turkey had identified and suggested their presence linked Saudi Arabia’s crown prince to the crime.
“There is an agenda here. They want to zone in on Mohammed bin Salman,” said Iyad el-Baghdadi, a human-rights activist who found fame during the Arab Spring and was later expelled from the U.A.E. for criticizing Arab dictators. He is now the founder of Kawaakibi Center, a Norway-based think tank focused on democracy in the Arab world." - https://www.wsj.com/articles/jamal-khashoggis-death-fuels-a-middle-east-information-war-15400)51447
(11) Al Jazeera: "Al Jazeera: Call for closure siege against journalism" (23 Jun 2017)
"The demands included the closure of all news outlets that Qatar funds, directly and indirectly, including Arabi21, Rassd, Al Araby Al Jadeed, Mekameleen and Middle East Eye. Qatar’s Foreign Minister Sheikh Mohammed bin Abdulrahman Al Thani has said that Al Jazeera Media Network is an “internal affair” and there will be no discussion about the fate of the Doha-based broadcaster during the Gulf crisis. -
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/6/23/al-jazeera-call-for-closure-siege-against-journalism
(12) Middle East Monitor (June 24, 2017)
"Al-Jazeera is not the only media outlet targeted by these three countries (plus Egypt); they want Qatar to close others funded by the oil- and gas-rich Gulf State, either directly or indirectly, including Arabi21, Rassd, Al-Araby Al-Jadeed and Middle East Eye."
-
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20170624-qatar-is-giving-saudi-and-the-uae-a-masterclass-in-international-diplomacy/
(13) Al-Monitor: "The alliance between Qatar, the host and backer of Al Jazeera, with Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood is no secret..."
-
https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2012/al-monitor/morsys-win-is-al-jazeeras-loss.html
(14) Hudson Institute: "The Brotherhood divided", by Senior Fellow Samuel Tadros (August 20, 2015)
"Therefore, the Brotherhood focused on building an English language media arm, one that would not appear to be controlled by it directly. The task was carried by the London office. In July 2009, Brotherhood affiliates established Middle East Monitor to focus mainly on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Following the coup, the website shifted to focusing on Egypt, thereby providing Western readers the Brotherhood’s point of view. To supplement the message, Brotherhood affiliates launched Middle East Eye in February 2014. -
https://web.archive.org/web/20190809084102/https://www.hudson.org/research/11530-the-brotherhood-divided
(15) The Atlantic Council (MENASource): "How Will the Rift with Qatar Play Out?", by H.A. Hellyer (June 5, 2017)
"But Doha is different. Qatar is a small state that has been able to punch above its weight by leveraging its large wealth into financial investments, and media enterprises—significantly, the Al Jazeera network, but also newer entities like The New Arab (al-Araby al-Jadid)...
...Here is the rub of the issue. Since 2012, Riyadh and Abu Dhabi, the larger powers in the GCC, have felt Doha was something of a loose cannon, especially over support of the Muslim Brotherhood in different countries, including the hosting of non-Qatari MB figures on its soil, and friendlier interactions with Iran as compared to Saudi and the UAE." - https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/menasource/how-will-the-rift-with-qatar-play-out-2/
(16) Times of Israel (blog): "Middle East Eye: Qatar’s loyal propaganda machine" by Julie Lenarz, Director of the London's Human Security Centre think-tank (AUG 29, 2019)
"To its audience, MEE portrays itself as a credible and reputable news outlet with focus on the Middle East and the wider region, when in truth it acts as a shameless extension to Al Jazeera and the Qatari state."
-
https://web.archive.org/web/20190829184744/https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/middle-east-eye-qatars-loyal-propaganda-machine/
EnlightenmentNow1792 ( talk) 03:19, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
It clearly says that this is included in the 13-point demand list. It further links to this story which also quotes the demand list. Which, again, says "11) Shut down all news outlets funded directly and indirectly by Qatar, including Arabi21, Rassd, Al Araby Al Jadeed, Mekameleen and Middle East Eye, etc." So the AJ story says this is part of their demand, and even puts the news outlets in the same exact order as the demand list, but you are going to say this is not being presented as one of the demands of the Saudi bloc. You are attempting to distort the sources to say what they say Saudi says as an accusation is a fact. And you are doing it while accusing others of misrepresenting the sources. That is not going to fly, sorry. nableezy - 23:06, 21 January 2022 (UTC)After more than two weeks, the four Arab countries reportedly issued a 13-point demand list on Friday in exchange for the end of the anti-Qatar measures and gave a 10-day deadline.
Associated Press and Reuters news agencies reported they obtained the list from unnamed officials from one of the countries involved in isolating Qatar.
The demands included the closure of all news outlets that Qatar funds, directly and indirectly, including Arabi21, Rassd, Al Araby Al Jadeed, Mekameleen and Middle East Eye.
It looks that this text, though very factual breaks some wiki rules
In october 2022, it became known that their collaborator, the Palestinian journalist Shatha Hammad, was an Hitler-fan and wrote years ago antisemitic and genocidal posts against the Jews. She received the Thomson Reuters Foundation and the Kurt Schork Memorial Fund award in 2022 but Thomson Reuters immediately withdrew the award . Also Middle East Eye stopped collaboration with her but did hide the statement in French and didn't publish an English version of this text.
I don't see where & how WP:BLP policies may make a change to these facts? Anybody ? 2A02:A03F:6AF4:4200:30B0:348F:F916:95FC ( talk) 20:46, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
This edit which has been reverted is rather complex. Its edit summary is "Edited infobox, added more content to introduction, enlarged section on history and organisation, enlarged 'content' section by adding relevant information on death of Shireen Abu Akleh, added awards section. Kept all criticism and accusations against MEE within the article". It seems possible to me that some parts of the edit may be valuable and other parts not wanted. Little or no explanation was given for the revert. I suggest breaking this edit down into smaller parts and examining each part for its merit. It seems to me that generally adding content with relevant refs should probably be OK unless anyone expresses an objection with an actual explanation of why they don't think it should be in the article. I'm confused as to whether any content was deleted. As to one specific tiny bit: I think in this case the original "had withdrawn" is better than "withdrew" because the event occurred before the other event that was being discussed; if it only says "withdrew" the reader has to go to the trouble of comparing dates or get a wrong impression of the order things happened. [Edit: fixed link] ☺ Coppertwig ( talk) 14:59, 2 August 2023 (UTC)
Re infobox: I suggest adding the language parameter but not deleting headquarters, but in the headquarters parameter just giving the address and London with London linked appropriately, but leaving out england etc. because that info can be found by following the link from london. I think the above edit removed unused parameters from the template invocation. I skimmed Help:Template but didn't see any advice on whether to do this or not in general. I skimmed Template:Infobox and didn't see advice but it seems to give examples that do and do not have empty parameters listed. Leaving empty parameters there allows them to be easily used in future. Deleting gets them out of the way if they're unlikely ever to be used on this page. I have no opinion at this time on the deletion of unused parameters but suggest waiting for consensus on the talk page (or for no objection on the talk page for a reasonable period of time) before re-instating the deletion of empty parameters. ☺ Coppertwig ( talk) 15:55, 2 August 2023 (UTC)
The edit is marked as adding disambiguation links. I checked some of them. Surprisingly, Turkey is fine but Palestine is a disambiguation link. You can change it to, for example, "Palestine (region)|Palestine". I'm not sure whether there are any other disambiguation links in the edit. ☺ Coppertwig ( talk) 16:06, 2 August 2023 (UTC)
Oops. I feel that my time has been wasted here, and I'm sorry if I wasted other peoples' time. I had been under the impression that the edit at the top of this section was new work that Sabotage1 had done, and I wanted to encourage Sabotage1 and conserve useful material by trying to get at least some of it into the article. However, I now notice that the edit adds a citation tag with a date in the past (January 2022 I think), giving me the impression that some or all of the edit was a revert. Please, everyone, if you revert, (re-adding or re-removing stuff that's previously been removed or added) put something in the edit summary to indicate that. I got the wrong impression from the edit summary. Sabotage1, would you please describe your edit: that is, explain what parts are reverts and what parts are new work that you did when doing that edit. I might or might not participate further here. Everyone, please avoid editwarring; please discuss with other editors and come to consensus rather than just reverting. ☺ Coppertwig ( talk) 14:57, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
Kautilya3 I have rephrased the section on the claims made by Saudi State owned Newspaper Arab News and it was one commentator not the entire Arab world as you claimed and Saudis most definitely are not representative of the Arab world it is closely tied to the Saudi state yet you made a blanket statement that the "Arab world" somehow had this opinion on MEE can you explain how you came to such a conclusion? Mrdabalina ( talk) 20:51, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
Kautilya3 Just had to chance to review another addition of yours and yet again you utilize a terrible reference "Arab news" and middle east forum as some sort of reliable reference which is clearly is not reliable it is a rival state owned propaganda channel owned by the House of Saud using them to criticise Middle East Eye is not acceptable at all I dont understand why you are so keen on spreading misinformation seems like Henry Jackson society's criticism has got you triggered but moving on use a reliable reference not Saudi owned mouth piece websites such as Arab News to critique another media outlet they are opposing each other naturally due to geopolitics of the region and to add to this the Atlantic is an opinion piece again Al Jazeera has its own page if you want to bash them use the main page for that dont add sneaky biased views from clearly unreliable references here to vent thanks. Mrdabalina ( talk) 13:10, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
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We have been down this road before and I believe the same pattern is beginning again. Please do not revert edits without coming to the Talk page to explain. I am undoing the revert on the basis that it is unexplained and if it continues I will have to ask for page protection yet again.
Susan belt74 ( talk) 17:40, 13 November 2014
Current article reads: "The governments of Saudi Arabia, UAE, Egypt and Bahrain accuse MEE of pro-Muslim Brotherhood bias and receiving Qatari funding."
Really? What about:
(1) Ilan Berman, (2018). Digital Dictators: Media, Authoritarianism, and America’s New Challenge, Rowman & Littlefield, 2018.
"Qatar is purported to fund Al-Arabyal-Jaddeed (The New Arab) and the Middle East Eye)..." (p. 80)
"In turn, HuffPost Arabi had the ability to cross-post to a host of other Al-Jazeera-affiliated media outlets, including Middle East Eye..." (p. 81)
"Moreover, as the Qatari-backed Middle East Eye has suggested..." (p. 90)
Berman is the Vice President of the
American Foreign Policy Council, is an adjunct professor for International Law and Global Security at the
National Defense University, and a member of the Associated Faculty at
Missouri State University's Department of Defense and Strategic Studies.
He is also an Editor of The Journal of International Security Affairs, has advised the United States Department of Defense, agencies of the U.S. government including the CIA, and offices of congressmen on matters of foreign policy and national security.
And is the publisher of at least 330 articles, in Newsweek, CNN, Forbes, Fox News, MSN, The Wall Street Journal, USA Today, U.S. News & World Report, POLITICO, The Hill, Yahoo, Jerusalem Post, National Review, Orlando Sentinel, The Moscow Times, RealClear Politics, Washington Examiner, Foreign Affairs, The Diplomat Magazine, The National Interest, Middle East Forum, etc, and et al.
(2) In a JPost piece by the regional, on-the-ground veteran freelance reporter Jonathan Spyer:
"Mohammad Dahlan, former commander of Fatah’s Preventive Security Service in the Gaza Strip....[has] sued the London-based Middle East Eye, a news website widely considered to have close ties to the Emirate of Qatar..."
With an MA from SOAS and a PhD from LSE, he has been published in The Wall Street Journal, Ha'aretz, The Guardian, The Times, The Weekly Standard, Foreign Policy, and has published books based on his reporting in Bloomsbury (2010), Simon & Schuster (2014), and Routledge (2017) - books that have been praised by such disparate figures as Martin Peretz, former Editor in Chief of The New Republic, Bill Roggio of the Long War Journal, neocon hawk Daniel Pipes of the Middle East Forum, and progressive liberal Daniel J. Levy of Conatus News.
(3) Then there's Taha Naier, writing in the peer-reviewed academic journal European Scientific Journal (ESJ), who says:
"Significant financial incentives were provided. Qatar is investing in part of the Guardian newspaper and founding the Middle East Eye site were examples of Qatar seeking to expand its influence through a media lobby." (Naier, T. (2021). Qatar Soft Power: From Rising to the Crisis. (p. 5)
(4)
Transparency International, in an "An overview of corruption and anti-corruption in Qatar", author Bak writes: "In addition to Al Jazeera, Qatar also funds news networks across the region such as the Middle East Eye..." (p. 3) Yes, it has a footnote to a Times of Israel article as a source, which seems to be good enough for TI, but not nableezy and Co.
(5) And this monograph:
(Коротаев, А. В., Исаев, Л. М., & Мардасов, А. Г. (2019). Протесты 2019 г. в Египте. Предварительный анализ. Системный мониторинг глобальных и региональных рисков) which, looking at the situation in Egypt, identifies the "Turkish-Qatari" anti-Muslim Brotherhood alliance as expressed in what the authors call the "anti-Sisi" media of, citing from Qatar "primarily the Middle East Eye and Al Jazeera" and from Turkey, it's Arabic-language "Mekamleen TV" (based in Istanbul, but owned by Qatar's
Es'hail 2).
EnlightenmentNow1792 ( talk) 06:59, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
This clearly frames the "accusations" as a part of geopolitical mud-slingingThat's one interpretation and may even be true but it doesn't say that and how is demanding the shutdown of MEE and other media (the 13 demands) not political?
widespread understanding that it was founded, is funded, and that it's very raison d'etre is to serve Qatar's foreign policy interests.Your sources don't support that statement at all. I repeat that Bak's views are not endorsed by Transparency International. Nor is the Israeli press, because of the Abraham Accords/Hamas matters, the best sourcing for this issue. Your best source is Berman ie "purported to fund" (which he repeats in a 2021 book). Selfstudier ( talk) 11:43, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
"I repeat that Bak's views are not endorsed by Transparency International." - and you know this how?It says so right at the bottom of the page, do you not read your own sources?
"Nor is the Israeli press, because of the Abraham Accords/Hamas matters, the best sourcing for this issue."I didn't say it wasn't usable at all, I said it was not the best sourcing and it isn't, for the reasons I gave. The ToI Staff have obviously just copied that from somewhere, "based in London and funded by Qatar" is all it has to say on the matter while Berman, a clearly much better source says purportedly funded and you want to credit the ToI over Berman, no way.
Five sources, not "one/two".You have 5 sources saying founded? Where?
It says so right at the bottom of, do you not read your own sources? - I don't make a habit of reading legalese, no. It literally says, at the bottom in grey lettering on every single report in the "Knowledge Hub" on TI:
"This document should not be considered as representative of the [European] Commission or Transparency International’s official position. Neither the European Commission, Transparency International nor any person acting on behalf of the Commission is responsible for the use which might be made of the following information. This Anti-Corruption Helpdesk is operated by Transparency International and funded by the European Union."
If we were to interpret that legal disclaimer as you wish to ("Bak's [sic, and his fellow TI colleagues who acted as reviewers] views are not endorsed by Transparency International") then Transparency International would be almost useless as a source.
The ToI Staff have obviously just copied that from somewhere, "based in London and funded by Qatar" is all it has to say on the matter while Berman, a clearly much better source says purportedly funded and you want to credit the ToI over Berman, no way. I had to LOL at your supposition that "ToI Staff obviously just copied that from somewhere"! "based in London and funded by Qatar" is all it has to say on the matter because it's common knowledge, no grand expose or stellar work of investigative journalism is needed, it's all open source, we know exactly who started it (Al Jazeera employees) and since the token "editor" won't be transparent about his funding, everyone assumes quite correctly that the funding is of the same origin as AJ and all Qatar's other media outlets.
while Berman, a clearly much better source says purportedly funded and you want to credit the ToI over Berman, no way. I absolutely do NOT want to credit the ToI "over" Berman (I introduced Berman as a source for this article, remember?). He writes carefully, as he should, as should we, I just want the "Wiki Voice" to accurately reflect the overwhelming consensus on this issue. If there were RSs that denied it - that would be a different story. But of course there aren't, there can't be. So we may as well reflect what those sources who have bothered to even mention this obvious point, actually say.
You have 5 sources saying founded? Where? - 4 say either founded or funded, 1 says "widely considered to have close ties to the Emirate of Qatar". I'm not to hung up on the specific wording, only that it is given appropriate weight - and not lumped in, or, more like, tagged on the end of - the Gulf Diplomatic Crisis, as it is now. EnlightenmentNow1792 ( talk) 12:52, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
I absolutely do NOT want to credit Berman "over" the ToII think you have got this back to front?
"for the text to reflect the industry and scholarly consensus on this issue"The ONUS is on you to suggest material and demonstrate that your suggestion actually meets this test. So far you have not done so.
Bak is as reliable as you can make him out to be given that he is in effect a self published source. Wow. - EnlightenmentNow1792 ( talk) 13:19, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
(6) Oxford Analytica, 2018. Polarised Gulf media will obscure facts. Emerald Expert Briefings.
"...an English-language website focused on the Middle East and with links to the UAE government was established in London in April 2018 -- aiming to counter the influence of similar Qatar-backed websites, The New Arab and Middle East Eye..."
- EnlightenmentNow1792 ( talk) 13:43, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
(7) Dorsey, J. M. (2017). The Gulf Crisis: Small States Battle it Out, doi:10.2139/ssrn.3003598. (p. 12)
"Middle East Eye, an allegedly Qatar-supported online news website, quoted Turkish intelligence officials as charging that Mohammed Dahlan, an Abu Dhabi-based former Palestinian security chief with close ties to the UAE’s Bin Zayed..."
- EnlightenmentNow1792 ( talk) 14:00, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
(8) "In Middle East Eye, a Qatari-funded online "news" outlet, reports of leaked emails suggest the KSA is desperate..." (p. 262)
Blumi, I. (2018). Destroying Yemen: What Chaos in Arabia Tells Us about the World. United States: University of California Press.
- EnlightenmentNow1792 ( talk) 14:37, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
(9) "Qatar has financed a number of English-speaking news outlets such as the 'Middle East Monitor' in 2009, Al Jazeera's US franchise in 2013, the London-based 'Middle East Eye', headed by former Guardian journalist David Hearst, and the bilingual website 'New Arab (or 'Al-Araby Al-Jadeed') in 2014." - Willi, V. J. (2021). The Fourth Ordeal: A History of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, 1968-2018. Cambridge University Press. (p. 373)
- EnlightenmentNow1792 ( talk) 14:48, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
AN INTERCONNECTED NETWORK
Al-Jazeera is not the only outlet affiliated with Qatar, though its popularity and scope far exceed the rest. Qatar is purported to fund Al-Araby al-Jadeed (The New Arab) and Middle East Eye, which publish in English and Arabic, in addition to the Arabic-only HuffPost Arabi.
Reuters reported that Qatar launched Al-Araby al-Jadeed in 2015...
UAE newspaper The National first disclosed a connection between Middle East Eye (MEE) and Qatar in 2014. An Al Jazeera employee served as a launch consultant for MEE briefly before returning to work on special projects for A-Jazeera’s chairman’s office.
MEE’s website says it is operated by “M.E.E. Ltd.,” and British corporate filings show that Jamal Awn Jamal Bessasso is the only person with significant control in both Middle East Eye and M.E.E. Ltd. According to The National, Bessasso was “a director of planning and human resources” at Al Jazeera and an ex-director for Samalink TV, “the registered agent for the website of the Hamas-controlled al-Quds TV. (p. 80)
EnlightenmentNow1792 ( talk) 14:36, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
The National (Abu Dhabi), is government owned by a government who has made these claims about Qatar. We already say these governments say this. Using state owned entities to say it as though it is not the state saying it is kind of funny. There is no sourcing for anything to be widely believed outside of Qatar's geopolitical rivals. nableezy - 16:08, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
"Remove the 2017 GCC diplomatic spat to the body."
I don't agree and I believe you have no consensus for this.
Selfstudier (
talk)
16:32, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
MEE denial is already present so you want to replace "Middle East Eye has been described as being backed by Qatar." with "Middle East Eye is widely believed to have been founded and funded by Qatar". Personally I would agree to "Middle East Eye is believed by some to have been founded and/or funded by Qatar (refs) while others consider such assertions as allegations (refs)" Please write up the appropriate refs to go with that if you agree. Selfstudier ( talk) 16:55, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
I dont think that quite qualifies as a reliable source on if Qatar funds MEE. nableezy - 18:34, 7 January 2022 (UTC)In Middle East Eye, a Qatari-funded online “news” outlet, reports of leaked emails suggest the KSA is desperate for a way out of its war on Yemen. The article itself functions to exonerate Qatar by highlighting that the KSA “allowed” Trump’s diplomatic team to start secret meetings with Iran a month before Qatar was formally outed for maintaining commercial ties with its Persian neighbor. Even more confusing in this piece supposedly about Yemen is the overt criticism of the “Little Sparta” UAE for its own “imperialistic” ambitions unnecessarily complicating Arabia’s politics. When the authors stick to the actual theme of the article, the suggestion is that Riyadh currently attempts to separate Saleh from the much more threatening “Huthi” rival, a clear indication that this war will not be so easy to end for the KSA and the larger GCC community. David Hearst and Clayton Swisher, “Saudi Crown Prince Wants Out of Yemen War, Leaked Emails Reveal,” Middle East Eye, August 14, 2017.
The best source here is the one that is actually focused on the accusations, The Gulf Crisis: Small States Battle it Out, but even that largely sidesteps the issue. But what it says is Middle East Eye, an allegedly Qatar-supported online news website, and that is it. Even that is fairly weak, but it only supports that there are such allegations. Not that it is widely believed to be true, or that it actually is true. You are asking us to take as fact what several sources describe as allegations, largely on the basis of throwaway lines not focused on the topic. nableezy - 18:41, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
(10) Wall Street Journal: "Jamal Khashoggi’s Death Fuels a Middle East Information War" (Oct. 20, 2018)
"Al Jazeera has repeatedly broken stories on the Turkish investigation into the Saudi dissident’s whereabouts. The Qatari network, like Western media, has cited anonymous Turkish sources and was the first to give graphic details on what happened in the consulate, including how Mr. Khashoggi was beaten, drugged and murdered.
Middle East Eye, another online news organization linked to Qatar, has published a number of exclusive reports on the case. In one, it reported that seven of Prince Mohammed’s bodyguards were among the suspects Turkey had identified and suggested their presence linked Saudi Arabia’s crown prince to the crime.
“There is an agenda here. They want to zone in on Mohammed bin Salman,” said Iyad el-Baghdadi, a human-rights activist who found fame during the Arab Spring and was later expelled from the U.A.E. for criticizing Arab dictators. He is now the founder of Kawaakibi Center, a Norway-based think tank focused on democracy in the Arab world." - https://www.wsj.com/articles/jamal-khashoggis-death-fuels-a-middle-east-information-war-15400)51447
(11) Al Jazeera: "Al Jazeera: Call for closure siege against journalism" (23 Jun 2017)
"The demands included the closure of all news outlets that Qatar funds, directly and indirectly, including Arabi21, Rassd, Al Araby Al Jadeed, Mekameleen and Middle East Eye. Qatar’s Foreign Minister Sheikh Mohammed bin Abdulrahman Al Thani has said that Al Jazeera Media Network is an “internal affair” and there will be no discussion about the fate of the Doha-based broadcaster during the Gulf crisis. -
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/6/23/al-jazeera-call-for-closure-siege-against-journalism
(12) Middle East Monitor (June 24, 2017)
"Al-Jazeera is not the only media outlet targeted by these three countries (plus Egypt); they want Qatar to close others funded by the oil- and gas-rich Gulf State, either directly or indirectly, including Arabi21, Rassd, Al-Araby Al-Jadeed and Middle East Eye."
-
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20170624-qatar-is-giving-saudi-and-the-uae-a-masterclass-in-international-diplomacy/
(13) Al-Monitor: "The alliance between Qatar, the host and backer of Al Jazeera, with Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood is no secret..."
-
https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2012/al-monitor/morsys-win-is-al-jazeeras-loss.html
(14) Hudson Institute: "The Brotherhood divided", by Senior Fellow Samuel Tadros (August 20, 2015)
"Therefore, the Brotherhood focused on building an English language media arm, one that would not appear to be controlled by it directly. The task was carried by the London office. In July 2009, Brotherhood affiliates established Middle East Monitor to focus mainly on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Following the coup, the website shifted to focusing on Egypt, thereby providing Western readers the Brotherhood’s point of view. To supplement the message, Brotherhood affiliates launched Middle East Eye in February 2014. -
https://web.archive.org/web/20190809084102/https://www.hudson.org/research/11530-the-brotherhood-divided
(15) The Atlantic Council (MENASource): "How Will the Rift with Qatar Play Out?", by H.A. Hellyer (June 5, 2017)
"But Doha is different. Qatar is a small state that has been able to punch above its weight by leveraging its large wealth into financial investments, and media enterprises—significantly, the Al Jazeera network, but also newer entities like The New Arab (al-Araby al-Jadid)...
...Here is the rub of the issue. Since 2012, Riyadh and Abu Dhabi, the larger powers in the GCC, have felt Doha was something of a loose cannon, especially over support of the Muslim Brotherhood in different countries, including the hosting of non-Qatari MB figures on its soil, and friendlier interactions with Iran as compared to Saudi and the UAE." - https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/menasource/how-will-the-rift-with-qatar-play-out-2/
(16) Times of Israel (blog): "Middle East Eye: Qatar’s loyal propaganda machine" by Julie Lenarz, Director of the London's Human Security Centre think-tank (AUG 29, 2019)
"To its audience, MEE portrays itself as a credible and reputable news outlet with focus on the Middle East and the wider region, when in truth it acts as a shameless extension to Al Jazeera and the Qatari state."
-
https://web.archive.org/web/20190829184744/https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/middle-east-eye-qatars-loyal-propaganda-machine/
EnlightenmentNow1792 ( talk) 03:19, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
It clearly says that this is included in the 13-point demand list. It further links to this story which also quotes the demand list. Which, again, says "11) Shut down all news outlets funded directly and indirectly by Qatar, including Arabi21, Rassd, Al Araby Al Jadeed, Mekameleen and Middle East Eye, etc." So the AJ story says this is part of their demand, and even puts the news outlets in the same exact order as the demand list, but you are going to say this is not being presented as one of the demands of the Saudi bloc. You are attempting to distort the sources to say what they say Saudi says as an accusation is a fact. And you are doing it while accusing others of misrepresenting the sources. That is not going to fly, sorry. nableezy - 23:06, 21 January 2022 (UTC)After more than two weeks, the four Arab countries reportedly issued a 13-point demand list on Friday in exchange for the end of the anti-Qatar measures and gave a 10-day deadline.
Associated Press and Reuters news agencies reported they obtained the list from unnamed officials from one of the countries involved in isolating Qatar.
The demands included the closure of all news outlets that Qatar funds, directly and indirectly, including Arabi21, Rassd, Al Araby Al Jadeed, Mekameleen and Middle East Eye.
It looks that this text, though very factual breaks some wiki rules
In october 2022, it became known that their collaborator, the Palestinian journalist Shatha Hammad, was an Hitler-fan and wrote years ago antisemitic and genocidal posts against the Jews. She received the Thomson Reuters Foundation and the Kurt Schork Memorial Fund award in 2022 but Thomson Reuters immediately withdrew the award . Also Middle East Eye stopped collaboration with her but did hide the statement in French and didn't publish an English version of this text.
I don't see where & how WP:BLP policies may make a change to these facts? Anybody ? 2A02:A03F:6AF4:4200:30B0:348F:F916:95FC ( talk) 20:46, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
This edit which has been reverted is rather complex. Its edit summary is "Edited infobox, added more content to introduction, enlarged section on history and organisation, enlarged 'content' section by adding relevant information on death of Shireen Abu Akleh, added awards section. Kept all criticism and accusations against MEE within the article". It seems possible to me that some parts of the edit may be valuable and other parts not wanted. Little or no explanation was given for the revert. I suggest breaking this edit down into smaller parts and examining each part for its merit. It seems to me that generally adding content with relevant refs should probably be OK unless anyone expresses an objection with an actual explanation of why they don't think it should be in the article. I'm confused as to whether any content was deleted. As to one specific tiny bit: I think in this case the original "had withdrawn" is better than "withdrew" because the event occurred before the other event that was being discussed; if it only says "withdrew" the reader has to go to the trouble of comparing dates or get a wrong impression of the order things happened. [Edit: fixed link] ☺ Coppertwig ( talk) 14:59, 2 August 2023 (UTC)
Re infobox: I suggest adding the language parameter but not deleting headquarters, but in the headquarters parameter just giving the address and London with London linked appropriately, but leaving out england etc. because that info can be found by following the link from london. I think the above edit removed unused parameters from the template invocation. I skimmed Help:Template but didn't see any advice on whether to do this or not in general. I skimmed Template:Infobox and didn't see advice but it seems to give examples that do and do not have empty parameters listed. Leaving empty parameters there allows them to be easily used in future. Deleting gets them out of the way if they're unlikely ever to be used on this page. I have no opinion at this time on the deletion of unused parameters but suggest waiting for consensus on the talk page (or for no objection on the talk page for a reasonable period of time) before re-instating the deletion of empty parameters. ☺ Coppertwig ( talk) 15:55, 2 August 2023 (UTC)
The edit is marked as adding disambiguation links. I checked some of them. Surprisingly, Turkey is fine but Palestine is a disambiguation link. You can change it to, for example, "Palestine (region)|Palestine". I'm not sure whether there are any other disambiguation links in the edit. ☺ Coppertwig ( talk) 16:06, 2 August 2023 (UTC)
Oops. I feel that my time has been wasted here, and I'm sorry if I wasted other peoples' time. I had been under the impression that the edit at the top of this section was new work that Sabotage1 had done, and I wanted to encourage Sabotage1 and conserve useful material by trying to get at least some of it into the article. However, I now notice that the edit adds a citation tag with a date in the past (January 2022 I think), giving me the impression that some or all of the edit was a revert. Please, everyone, if you revert, (re-adding or re-removing stuff that's previously been removed or added) put something in the edit summary to indicate that. I got the wrong impression from the edit summary. Sabotage1, would you please describe your edit: that is, explain what parts are reverts and what parts are new work that you did when doing that edit. I might or might not participate further here. Everyone, please avoid editwarring; please discuss with other editors and come to consensus rather than just reverting. ☺ Coppertwig ( talk) 14:57, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
Kautilya3 I have rephrased the section on the claims made by Saudi State owned Newspaper Arab News and it was one commentator not the entire Arab world as you claimed and Saudis most definitely are not representative of the Arab world it is closely tied to the Saudi state yet you made a blanket statement that the "Arab world" somehow had this opinion on MEE can you explain how you came to such a conclusion? Mrdabalina ( talk) 20:51, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
Kautilya3 Just had to chance to review another addition of yours and yet again you utilize a terrible reference "Arab news" and middle east forum as some sort of reliable reference which is clearly is not reliable it is a rival state owned propaganda channel owned by the House of Saud using them to criticise Middle East Eye is not acceptable at all I dont understand why you are so keen on spreading misinformation seems like Henry Jackson society's criticism has got you triggered but moving on use a reliable reference not Saudi owned mouth piece websites such as Arab News to critique another media outlet they are opposing each other naturally due to geopolitics of the region and to add to this the Atlantic is an opinion piece again Al Jazeera has its own page if you want to bash them use the main page for that dont add sneaky biased views from clearly unreliable references here to vent thanks. Mrdabalina ( talk) 13:10, 11 November 2023 (UTC)