This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I created the reception section, which is completely appropriate for any author, much more so one so widely published, and the single most published pro-feminist author on men and masculinities. In it I sourced a statement to the very mainstream publication "Psychology Today" and was reverted by another editor -- a change I have since reverted, (hence this section on talk.)-- Cybermud ( talk) 00:24, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
Cybermud, I see that you have restored that questionable material. My previous concerns about including this in the article have not been addressed. Please respond to the specific points I made above regarding the provenance of this quote and its appropriateness for inclusion in a BLP article. Until then I feel like this should material should not remain.
Rather than engaging in a back-and-forth revert situation, I suggest a time-period in which we can attempt to find consensus about this situation. I would be very interested in hearing other editors' opinions on this matter. Together, we can improve this article and make it more reliable and informative. After a month, if my concerns remain, I will remove the material again. Until then, I am happy to engage in a dialogue with the editors of this page to determine the best way to proceed. Mike Restivo ( talk) 17:12, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
I restored the Reception section (not sure when it was deleted entirely) as it existed in April 2012, and, added some new material. Memills ( talk) 17:53, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
Time to revisit this issue. First, the article in question is not an "opinion piece in the MRM journal." The journal is a scholarly, academic journal about men's studies (per it's title "New Male Studies" and its stated mission as an academic "interdisciplinary forum for research and discussion of issues facing boys and men worldwide."). As a peer reviewed, scholarly journal, it meets the criteria as a RS. However, if there is disagreement about this here, perhaps the issue can be reviewed at the reliable sources noticeboard WP:RSN.
Also, the article is a scholarly review of an academic book written by Michael Kimmel. Reviews are a normal part of the process of academic scholarship, they do not violate WP:BLP and do not meet the criteria of undue weight. Memills ( talk) 19:14, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
Kimmel is a controversial figure, which is not necessarily a bad thing. This page reads like a eulogy and is devoid of any criticism whatsoever. Miles Groth is a scholar of international repute with a publication list as long as your arm. Wikipedia achieves neutrality by recording all significant view points, especially from reliable secondary sources. The Miles Groth piece as such is a secondary source from a scholarly individual, in a scholarly publication that has an impressive team of editors. Until proven otherwise this is a reliable source of worth in the construction of this article. This material should be replaced. If others wish discredit this source then they should take it to RSN. CSDarrow ( talk) 18:25, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
This "Reception" section was added in 2010. Anthony Synnott's characterization of Kimmel as "misandric" ( "Michael Kimmel, who owns Men's Studies in the States, is particularly misandric...") still remains in the article. The source is an opinion piece of questionable reliability published in Psychology Today. Synnott argues that "misandry is everywhere" and characterizes basically everything, from Alice Walker's The Color Purple, the focus on violence against women after the École Polytechnique massacre, to pro-feminist literature (he calls it "propaganda") as "misandric". He does not always explain why he believes something is "misandric". In Kimmel's case, he offers an explanation:
Michael Kimmel, who owns Men's Studies in the States, is particularly misandric, opening his book "Manhood in America" (1996) with a long list of male villains - not a hero, hard working man, good father, Nobel Peace Prize winner, not a useful Newton, Darwin, Freud, Einstein, Gandhi, Mandela, King, Carnegie Medal winner in sight. It's amazing. Then in "Men's Lives" he adds more villains and this suggestion: "Perhaps we should slap a warning label on penises across the land. WARNING: OPERATING THIS INSTRUMENT CAN BE DANGEROUS TO YOUR AND OTHERS' HEALTH" (2004:565. His emphasis). One wonders if he is wearing this label on his own penis. Does he practice what he preaches? Oh well. But such is the "scholarship" on men these days: dehumanizing.
The slapping "a warning label" sentence is quoted out of context. Kimmel and Messner write: "But it's not men on trial here; it's masculinity, or rather the traditional definition of masculinity, a definition that leads to certain behaviors that we now see as problematic and often physically threatening. Under prevailing definitions, men have and are the politically incorrect sex. Perhaps we should slap a warning label..." Clearly, Kimmel and Messner discuss the "traditional definition of masculinity" rather than "men". His other explanation that Kimmel is "misandric" because he doesn't start "Manhood in America" with a hymn of praise for Einstein et al. is absurd. Kimmel mentions 7 successful and famous men including Woody Allen and Michael Jackson.
Apart from the above mentioned problems, Synnott's description of Kimmel as "misandric" is completely undue. Kimmel may not "own Men's Studies in the States" as Synnott says, but he is considered an expert in the field of gender and men's studies and Synnott's reading of Kimmel represents an extreme minority view. There are also sources claiming that Obama is a socialist but we exclude such sources per WP:UNDUE.
I propose to remove the paragraph in question. But I would love to hear more opinions. -- Sonicyouth86 ( talk) 17:51, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
I'm obviously late to the party, but I also support leaving this material out. "Reception" sections are inappropriate for biographies, which must avoid becoming attack pages. Per WP:BLP,
Criticism and praise should be included if they can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, so long as the material is presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a disinterested tone.
None of those conditions appear to have been met here. — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 07:48, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Michael Kimmel. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 22:10, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 4 external links on Michael Kimmel. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 02:25, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Michael Kimmel. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 02:07, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
I've removed an extraneous factoid about Kimmel being Jewish for now. Feel free to add an appropriately sourced explanation of how his ethnicity or religion is pertinent to his life and career, if applicable. — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 07:30, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
I have added a short reference to the accusations of sexual misconduct Kimmel has received over his career. After making this edit, I noticed that one particular user has previously tried to remove any reference to this from the article. Rather than engage in an edit war, it would be better if future edits were discussed here instead. Toofarfromhome ( talk) 02:06, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I created the reception section, which is completely appropriate for any author, much more so one so widely published, and the single most published pro-feminist author on men and masculinities. In it I sourced a statement to the very mainstream publication "Psychology Today" and was reverted by another editor -- a change I have since reverted, (hence this section on talk.)-- Cybermud ( talk) 00:24, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
Cybermud, I see that you have restored that questionable material. My previous concerns about including this in the article have not been addressed. Please respond to the specific points I made above regarding the provenance of this quote and its appropriateness for inclusion in a BLP article. Until then I feel like this should material should not remain.
Rather than engaging in a back-and-forth revert situation, I suggest a time-period in which we can attempt to find consensus about this situation. I would be very interested in hearing other editors' opinions on this matter. Together, we can improve this article and make it more reliable and informative. After a month, if my concerns remain, I will remove the material again. Until then, I am happy to engage in a dialogue with the editors of this page to determine the best way to proceed. Mike Restivo ( talk) 17:12, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
I restored the Reception section (not sure when it was deleted entirely) as it existed in April 2012, and, added some new material. Memills ( talk) 17:53, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
Time to revisit this issue. First, the article in question is not an "opinion piece in the MRM journal." The journal is a scholarly, academic journal about men's studies (per it's title "New Male Studies" and its stated mission as an academic "interdisciplinary forum for research and discussion of issues facing boys and men worldwide."). As a peer reviewed, scholarly journal, it meets the criteria as a RS. However, if there is disagreement about this here, perhaps the issue can be reviewed at the reliable sources noticeboard WP:RSN.
Also, the article is a scholarly review of an academic book written by Michael Kimmel. Reviews are a normal part of the process of academic scholarship, they do not violate WP:BLP and do not meet the criteria of undue weight. Memills ( talk) 19:14, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
Kimmel is a controversial figure, which is not necessarily a bad thing. This page reads like a eulogy and is devoid of any criticism whatsoever. Miles Groth is a scholar of international repute with a publication list as long as your arm. Wikipedia achieves neutrality by recording all significant view points, especially from reliable secondary sources. The Miles Groth piece as such is a secondary source from a scholarly individual, in a scholarly publication that has an impressive team of editors. Until proven otherwise this is a reliable source of worth in the construction of this article. This material should be replaced. If others wish discredit this source then they should take it to RSN. CSDarrow ( talk) 18:25, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
This "Reception" section was added in 2010. Anthony Synnott's characterization of Kimmel as "misandric" ( "Michael Kimmel, who owns Men's Studies in the States, is particularly misandric...") still remains in the article. The source is an opinion piece of questionable reliability published in Psychology Today. Synnott argues that "misandry is everywhere" and characterizes basically everything, from Alice Walker's The Color Purple, the focus on violence against women after the École Polytechnique massacre, to pro-feminist literature (he calls it "propaganda") as "misandric". He does not always explain why he believes something is "misandric". In Kimmel's case, he offers an explanation:
Michael Kimmel, who owns Men's Studies in the States, is particularly misandric, opening his book "Manhood in America" (1996) with a long list of male villains - not a hero, hard working man, good father, Nobel Peace Prize winner, not a useful Newton, Darwin, Freud, Einstein, Gandhi, Mandela, King, Carnegie Medal winner in sight. It's amazing. Then in "Men's Lives" he adds more villains and this suggestion: "Perhaps we should slap a warning label on penises across the land. WARNING: OPERATING THIS INSTRUMENT CAN BE DANGEROUS TO YOUR AND OTHERS' HEALTH" (2004:565. His emphasis). One wonders if he is wearing this label on his own penis. Does he practice what he preaches? Oh well. But such is the "scholarship" on men these days: dehumanizing.
The slapping "a warning label" sentence is quoted out of context. Kimmel and Messner write: "But it's not men on trial here; it's masculinity, or rather the traditional definition of masculinity, a definition that leads to certain behaviors that we now see as problematic and often physically threatening. Under prevailing definitions, men have and are the politically incorrect sex. Perhaps we should slap a warning label..." Clearly, Kimmel and Messner discuss the "traditional definition of masculinity" rather than "men". His other explanation that Kimmel is "misandric" because he doesn't start "Manhood in America" with a hymn of praise for Einstein et al. is absurd. Kimmel mentions 7 successful and famous men including Woody Allen and Michael Jackson.
Apart from the above mentioned problems, Synnott's description of Kimmel as "misandric" is completely undue. Kimmel may not "own Men's Studies in the States" as Synnott says, but he is considered an expert in the field of gender and men's studies and Synnott's reading of Kimmel represents an extreme minority view. There are also sources claiming that Obama is a socialist but we exclude such sources per WP:UNDUE.
I propose to remove the paragraph in question. But I would love to hear more opinions. -- Sonicyouth86 ( talk) 17:51, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
I'm obviously late to the party, but I also support leaving this material out. "Reception" sections are inappropriate for biographies, which must avoid becoming attack pages. Per WP:BLP,
Criticism and praise should be included if they can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, so long as the material is presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a disinterested tone.
None of those conditions appear to have been met here. — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 07:48, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Michael Kimmel. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 22:10, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 4 external links on Michael Kimmel. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 02:25, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Michael Kimmel. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 02:07, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
I've removed an extraneous factoid about Kimmel being Jewish for now. Feel free to add an appropriately sourced explanation of how his ethnicity or religion is pertinent to his life and career, if applicable. — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 07:30, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
I have added a short reference to the accusations of sexual misconduct Kimmel has received over his career. After making this edit, I noticed that one particular user has previously tried to remove any reference to this from the article. Rather than engage in an edit war, it would be better if future edits were discussed here instead. Toofarfromhome ( talk) 02:06, 27 May 2021 (UTC)