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Can you elaborate on the undue weight that was contained in the short book summary, and how it detracted from the mainstream context?
Can you elaborate on how moving the discussions of falsifiable and the identity of the intelligent designer into their own sections and out of the Darwin's Black Box section affects undue weight or the mainstream context?-- Swood100 ( talk) 23:13, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
If this were an article on a mainstream subject, then a fringe view would be allowed little or no space. In an article by a person who holds a fringe view, however, the fringe view has to be reported. That’s what the article is about. When there is a difference between the majority view and the fringe view the article must make it clear which is the majority view.
If it is reported that the subject of an article has been accused of engaging in an Argument from Ignorance and he disputes that, then there are three ways to handle it (a) report the accusation but not the denial, (b) report the accusation and just say “The subject denies this.” (c) report the accusation and report the subject’s reasoning as to why he is denying the accusation.
I am following the third approach: explaining the subject’s reasoning. I have tried to trim the response down as much as I can, but there is a limit to this. I certainly think it’s appropriate to report a rejoinder after the response, if one exists, as I included in the “unfalsifiable” portion. I am not attempting to report only one side of the issue. If you think that I am guilty of this, please point it out. But if it takes a few extra paragraphs for Behe’s response to be presented in a coherent fashion, then I don’t see why that should not be done. This is an article about him, after all.-- Swood100 ( talk) 18:48, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
You said that I removed the "mainstream criticism of that view" but in the link you provided, not one word was removed, although the diff may make it look that way. I only inserted a short book summary. Please point out one word that was removed.-- Swood100 ( talk) 18:54, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
If you have specific objections, please state them.-- Swood100 ( talk) 19:11, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
Why don't you just wait, and not assume that because I haven't included a certain rejoinder critical of Behe that I'm not going to. The judge in the Kitzmiller decision had some things to say on this question that were not at all favorable to Behe.-- Swood100 ( talk) 19:49, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
Two accusations are made against Behe:
What I have tried to do is give the reader the relevant facts related to this, as well as the arguments on both sides. This will help anyone who is trying to get to the bottom of these particular accusations to decide the question for himself. Previously, we just said that Doolittle's study refuted Behe. That might be sufficient for someone who is looking for a cursory treatment of the issue, but would not be for someone who wants the issue presented in greater depth. Perhaps we should split the article into an overview at the beginning, and then have a series of sections later on for those who want more information on a particular issue. But for those who come to Wikipedia trying to research the question of intellectual dishonesty or whether Behe has been refuted, I don't see how we get around the need for this level of detail.
Could you elaborate on the whiff of WP:SYNTH you detect here?-- Swood100 ( talk) 16:48, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
Ok, I agree that this is a little ungainly. I can clean it up. Questions:
Ok, I need to rewrite this. It needs to be made clear that the issue here is not whether the blood clotting cascade is irreducibly complex but rather what Behe intended to include in his definition of the blood clotting cascade. Under one definition Doolittle showed it not to be irreducibly complex. Under a different definition Doolittle's study did not address the question that Behe raised. I'll take a shot at it.
Also, WP:SYNTH apparently refers to reaching or implying a conclusion. If the comment about animosity between Behe and Miller is troubling to some I will take it out. It certainly doesn't add anything. As for the rest, I was trying to be scrupulous to avoid reaching any conclusions but I'll have another look at it. Maybe some slipped in.-- Swood100 ( talk) 18:23, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
I received the following message:
Please do not edit an article to promote an individual's point of view, as you did to Michael Behe. Doing so violates Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy and breaches the formal tone expected in an encyclopedia. Thank you. KillerChihuahua?!?Advice 16:57, 9 January 2010
Could the author please explain how my addition promoted an individual's point of view? Miller claimed that Doolittle's study had defeated Behe. Behe replied that this was based on a misreading of what he had said in Darwin's Black Box. I tried to show that the controversy revolved around the proper construction of a certain sentence that Behe had written, and then I quoted Behe as to what he had meant and why it should be construed in a certain way.
What part of this is objectionable?-- Swood100 ( talk) 17:16, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
I see also that Behe's response to the charge that his theory amounts to an Argument from Ignorance has been removed by the same person. Is Behe not permitted to respond to this charge? Please explain.-- Swood100 ( talk) 17:55, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
Someone just reverted my edits, saying that there are "Serious NPOV problems with recent changes." Could that person point out the NPOV problems?-- Swood100 ( talk) 00:30, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
Well, it looks to me like this article is trying to cover some of the major points about Behe and touch on some of the major controversies. Let's take the part about Doolittle and the blood cascade. Presumably that could all be covered in the article dealing with Darwin's Black Box, but most everything else could also be covered in a different article. I simply added his response, which required a little more detail about the controversy. I think that we have to accept that if there's going to be both an article about Behe and one about the book, then there is going to be some overlap. Could you be more specific about what you mean by bloat and WP:SYNTH and unbalance?-- Swood100 ( talk) 16:12, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
I think that it might make sense to divide this article up into various conceptual categories rather than into books. I started to break these categories out and another person objected, saying that he thought it should all stay under the book heading. Much of the material I added was simply Behe’s response to accusations made at the beginning of the section. Perhaps we should break these accusations out into separate sections. Then readers who are only interested in one controversy will be able to find it easily. What is your idea of the proper content of an article such as this?
Clearly, if a response to an accusation is available it needs to be supplied, and when we move from direct quotations to paraphrasing we lose something. This has to be weighed against the benefit to be gained by reducing the size of the article. To eviscerate a response in order to cut it down from two paragraphs to one only makes sense if evisceration is the objective.
Since there was no response to my request that the person doing that massive revert explain his reasons, I undid it. I have no problem with criticism. It's just that we need to go about this in a civilized way: by expressing and discussing specific problems that we see.
I also broke out the major controversies into their own categories.
I start from the proposition that any theory that is to be discussed in Wikipedia should be presented as its proponent would present it, and that it is not proper to present a weakened or diluted version of a theory in order to accomplish goals related to Fringe theories. Those goals must be accomplished through commentary, response and rebuttal in the same article. The reader is entitled to have the actual, original theory presented to him and often there is nobody better able to present it than the fringe scientist himself. If the words of the scientist are used to present the theory there must be no confusion that this is an exposition of the theory by the proponent, and that this is not an explanation of the generally accepted theory. If that is accomplished, then the theory should be presented.
Do you agree with the preceding paragraph?
In his Amazon blog, Behe is explaining that Miller is wrong because he was mistaken as to what Behe's theory was. This serves to explain and define his theory. There is nobody better able to do that than the man himself. And whether it comes from his blog or from a book that he wrote is irrelevant. Is Behe's blog a reliable source? If the question is "Is Behe's theory true?" then Behe's blog is not a reliable source. If the question is "What is Behe's theory?" then the blog is is definitely a reliable source, and that is what it is being used for here. Disagreement?
Can you give me an example of where I "relentlessly bore the reader with endless detail"?
In your third paragraph, I think you are missing the point. The issue here is this: "Did Behe exclude the factors "before the fork in the pathway" from his definition of the irreducibly complex system?" We are trying to determine from his own writing what he wrote and what he meant. How is it giving undue weight to present his own view on this? Certainly the result may be that we do not believe that he "meant" something that was not explicitly expressed. That was the conclusion drawn by both Miller and the judge. And how can it be concluded that his viewpoint was the last word in the discussion when the judge formally found that Miller's view was the correct one? That Behe did not publish this in a scientific article would be relevant to whether the blood clotting mechanism is irreducibly complex. It is not relevant to the determination of how he defined the system that he said was irreducibly complex. For that, we just look at what he wrote.
Was there a point you were making that I did not address?-- Swood100 ( talk) 15:08, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
I have heard people assert that there are issues with the edits I have made. Each time, I have asked the person to please point out the specific text he or she is talking about and what the specific issue is, but nobody has done that. Then I get accused of being hard of hearing. Now somebody else has come along and done a major revert with no explanation.
To the people who have a problem with what I have added: how about some specifics? It is not enough just to throw out major categories such as WP:DUE, WP:NPOV and WP:FRINGE. I have read those but I need you to tell me specifically, in English, (a) what text is objectionable, and (b) what is the specific objection. Otherwise, how can we even discuss it? One person says "This is WP:NPOV." The next person says "No it's not." That's not productive. You need to point out the exact text and explain why you think it falls under an objectionable category.
Now Simonm223 has come along and reverted everything to some arbitrary point. Please explain (and please don't just recite category names).-- Swood100 ( talk) 19:51, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
Is there anybody here who is arguing that it is never permissible to use a fringe scientist's own words to explain what his theory is? And that it is never permissible to show such a scientist's response to the charges made against him? I hope that everyone realizes how absurd that is. No matter what the theory is, it should be presented as the proponent presents it. How else does the reader know what the position is? Then should follow appropriate response and rebuttal. Any other approach that I'm aware of has no justification.-- Swood100 ( talk) 23:37, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
Let's see if we understand each other correctly. When the subject of an article is a fringe scientist:
Suppose we have a fringe scientist who believes that Copernicus had it wrong and that in fact the Ptolemaic system is the one that is correct. He believes this is true because over time he can see the planets going around in circles in the sky. If this man has achieved sufficient notoriety to warrant his own article, you would argue that his descriptions of the Ptolemaic system, being the one that he asserts is the correct one, and statements of his planetary observations, may not be used in the article since (a) this violates parity of sources, (b) presenting his theory through the use of his own words would constitute the making of an argument on his behalf, and (c) there would be no way, then, that it would be possible to present modern experts who could demonstrate to the reader how far off-base this man is. You say that when a reader wants to understand a man's theory, hearing it expressed by the man himself does not tend to clarify exactly what the theory is. Rather, that is to be avoided in the case of a fringe theory because of the likelihood that no cogent arguments will be available to show the flaws in the fringe theory, and because consequently people will be led astray.
Please correct any point that I am not understanding correctly.-- Swood100 ( talk) 22:07, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
Alright then, let's start with the Doolittle paragraph. You have it ending like this: "This defeats a key claim in Behe's book, that blood clotting is 'irreducibly complex." My additions show that this is a disputed point. I try to point out clearly that the dispute revolves around the pages in Darwin's Black Box where Behe says that the blood clotting cascade is irreducibly complex, meaning that if you remove one of the factors the system will no longer work. Doolittle found that the pufferfish was missing three of the factors and the system still worked. Miller said that his disproves Behe's prediction. Behe said that he had excluded those three factors from his definition of the irreducibly complex system, and so Doolittle's finding did not conflict with his prediction. The answer to the question revolves around how you interpret the simple English he used on pages 86 and 87 of his book. I maintain that since this is a disputed point, and since it can be explained in a brief space, it should be explained. And I believe that Behe's remark about the "principle of malicious reading" is relevant in that it shows his belief that a good-faith reading of what he wrote supports his position. I also included references showing the reader how to get to the relevant testimony of both Miller and Behe on this issue. These additions are more helpful to the reader than just declaring that one of the sides was correct.-- Swood100 ( talk) 17:14, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
If you have a problem with the Miller-Behe remarks being framed as a debate that can easily be remedied. I'll just give Miller's assertion and then Behe's response.-- Swood100 ( talk) 17:17, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
If you are having a problem with Behe's Argument From Ignorance response, the response could be paraphrased but I'm not sure what that would accomplish. All his points (or "talking points" as you put it) would still need to be included, because they constitute his answer to the charge. I have no objection to removing the blockquotes and displaying this all as one paragraph with regular quotes.-- Swood100 ( talk) 18:22, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
So, you do not object to the undoing of your revert as long as we leave out Behe's current response to the charge that his theory amounts to an Argument From Ignorance and see if we can come up with a better one. However, you are not proposing that Behe's response to this charge could legitimately be excluded altogether. Is this correct?-- Swood100 ( talk) 22:39, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
If there is anybody else who has a problem with any of my edits, please let me know what text you are referring to and what the nature of the issue is.-- Swood100 ( talk) 01:11, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
The following statement was made above:
I am personally opposed to including a list of Behe talking points as they strike me as a WP:COATRACK for his opinion.
The critical thing that this person is failing to realize is that the only thing that this article is about is Behe's opinion and how it differs from mainstream scientific opinion. People come to this article because they want to know about Behe's opinion - i.e. his theory. I think that this is the essence of the problem that people have with my edits. They don't want Behe's opinion to be expressed. Is there anybody who has a problem with my edits for some other reason? The solution is not to muzzle Behe. The solution is in the rebuttal. If anyone is aware of any strong, succinct rebuttals that I have overlooked, please point them out to me. I will be happy to present them as powerfully as I can.-- Swood100 ( talk) 01:27, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
If there are no further objections at this point, I will restore my edits, excluding the part about the Argument from Ignorance. I was never happy with that anyway because the quotations from Behe only made reference to chapters in his book where he says that he made arguments that were not merely negative. And the opposing quotations just spoke at a general level. And we need to also include the "God of the gaps" accusation (a form of Argument from Ignorance). We need to reference some specific arguments that Behe says turn his position into something other than an Argument from Ignorance. We also need specific rebuttals: why the particular arguments he is making fail to rescue his position from being an Argument from Ignorance and/or fail to be cogent arguments against the mainstream position. The web is a big place. If anybody knows of any good material on either side, and hasn't got the time right now to incorporate it into the article, just make a little note right here on this page, saying: "Check out this link" and I will either form it into a compact argument or I will tell you why I believe that there might be a better source for that particular point (or I will tell you that I haven't got any time right now to do any editing). The bottom line is this:
It is important that the various views and the subject as a whole are presented in a balanced manner and that each is summarized as if by its proponents to their best ability. Wikipedia:NPOV_tutorial.
Finally, fringe theories that oppose reliably sourced qualitative research - denialist histories, for example - should be described clearly within their own articles, but should not be given undue weight in more general discussions of the topic. Wikipedia:Fringe_theories
-- Swood100 ( talk) 14:05, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
You are treating this article as if it were an article on a general subject, such as Evolution, in which Behe's theory can be treated as a fringe theory and excluded or truncated because of due weight when compared with the major theories. However, this is an article about a person who is notable because of his fringe theory. Are you saying that in a biography of such a person an exposition of his theory can be excluded on the grounds that it is a fringe theory?
Here are the requirements of WP:NPOV:
It is true that the only people who have spoken up so far are those who are trying to enforce their own negative point of view about Behe in this article. But an article cannot ignore the requirements of WP:NPOV, even by consensus.
I described earlier the reason for my changes related to the Doolittle issue. What do you find objectionable about that?-- Swood100 ( talk) 20:22, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
You said that this is not the page to debate Behe's ideas. Is this the page to describe Behe's ideas? If both sides are not going to be portrayed, should we remove all disparagement of Behe's ideas? What exactly belongs on this page?-- Swood100 ( talk) 20:39, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
OK, although there are more than two parties there appear to be only two sides, so Wikipedia:Third opinion appears to be available. Would you agree to that?-- Swood100 ( talk) 22:38, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
I support swood100, I think he is correct in including the quotes. Consensus is not required for the edits, a proper argument against them is. Simonm223 have not made a proper argument against, otherwise I would support removal. You Simonm223 are the one WP:IDIDNOTHEARTHAT as far as I can see. 65.175.224.90 ( talk) 20:55, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
From Wikipedia:Fringe_theories
From Wikipedia:Reliable_sources
From Wikipedia:Reliable_source_examples
-- Swood100 ( talk) 00:13, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
This article has serious BLP issues.
When writing BLP's one must be hyper cautious when making statements about a person's work that could affect their livelihood. Some highlights from WP:BLP which this article fails:
Although per WP:BP these entries should be removed immediately and without discussion, I am posting this as a courtesy to interested editors to provide an opportunity to resolve these issues.
In addition, the entire article is written in a very non-encyclopedic tone. See WP:Words_to_avoid for hints on improving this aspect of the article. I would suggest that much of the material here doesn't belong in a biography and should be moved to the article on ID where editors have more latitude to discuss scientific controversies without running into BLP restrictions. JPatterson ( talk) 15:52, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
I agree with Swood100 that this article reads like a propaganda piece. I understand that the editors disagree with his ideas. But that does not excuse the sniping that runs through much of the article. Some of the more serious problems:
I do not believe that adding more rebuttals from Behe will help. Doing so would simply make the article more confusing than it already is. Instead it needs to be reorganized so that the reader can clearly see what his views are, to what extent they differ from mainstream thought, and to what extent his opponents have addressed his points.
Chappell ( talk) 9 January 2010
If I could make a suggestion, I would reword the the lead paragraph to something like
Michael J. Behe (born January 18, 1952) is an American biochemist and author best known for his theory of irreducible complexity criticizing some aspects of evolutionary theory that is held by the vast majority of scientist. He currently serves as professor of biochemistry at Lehigh University in Pennsylvania and as a senior fellow of the Discovery Institute's Center for Science and Culture.
This solves the problem of juxaposing the two opposing views without introducing difficult to source statements. The statement on evolution doesn't have to have a reference since it is in the lead and presumably would be expanded upon in the article (see WP:LEAD). I would also suggest again that this is not the best place to proxy the evolution v creationist battle. If it were me, per WP:SS, I'd have a section summarizing his views and their critique with a link to the main article on irreducible complexity . Another short summary section for the book and its critique, linking to the main article on that topic. The section on "the wedge" or whatever its called has interesting information not covered elsewhere so it should stay although it could use a good clean up. As it stands there's too much back and forth that is irrelevant to a biography. In any case, I don't have a dog in the hunt so don't shoot the messenger. I'm just on BLP patrol. JPatterson ( talk) 13:48, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
Many things were removed from this article that should not have been removed. I reverted back to the last consensus version. I'm in favor of moving forward, trimming, rewriting, etc. but it absolutely must be done with consensus and not unilaterally. ScienceApologist ( talk) 15:20, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
Somebody has clearly got so worked up about Behe's theories that they insist on having a refutation of them in the intro, taking up more space than the rest of the intro put together. This is clearly not balanced and should be removed. DJ Clayworth ( talk) 15:24, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
Let's do it the other way. Pick one from the list below (not the first three - 1 has already been discussed and is clearly WP:SYNTH, 2 is fixed and 3 is a minor point) and show how the analysis is incorrect. And yes, paraphrasing a source is fine but it has to be a paraphrase. You can't make a source say something it doesn't. Nor can you "read between the lines" and make explicit something you tthink is implicit in the text. JPatterson ( talk) 22:36, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
This section is nearly half of the article, and really needs to be trimmed some. A significant amount of the length is from the many long quotes from the book, from critics and from Behe's responses to criticism. I think most of those quotes can be removed, with the critical comments and responses replaced by summaries. There is an article for the book already, so I don't think this section needs to be quite so long. Thoughts before I start up the weed whacker and go trimming? Ravensfire ( talk) 16:50, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
I'm posting this here again with greater detail so as to be able to link from BLP/N because we're not supposed to post problematic material there.
JPatterson ( talk) 20:43, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
Indented comments not in italics are mine.
Guettarda ( talk) 07:23, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
OK, past my bedtime, but this is an important source. Guettarda ( talk) 07:48, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
Since no one has challenged #9 above which from a legal stand-point is the most problematic I have deleted this sentence from the article. JPatterson ( talk) 19:33, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
@Guettarda re 5: It certainly works for me. JPatterson ( talk) 06:11, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
Some seem to believe that the demands that this article be rewritten to conform to various Wikipedia policies are a smokescreen for Behe apologists. They seem to think that the article as it is does a good job of showing Behe to be a nut-case or a charlatan.
Leaving aside the question of whether the purpose of an encyclopedia article is to persuade, I think they overestimate the article's persuasive power. I suggest they try to read it through in the role of devil's advocate. Much of what was previously damning evidence now looks like spin-doctoring. Many of the 'talking points' are now simply unexplained digressions or trivia. All the reader comes away with is the idea that someone feels threatened by Behe's ideas and would prefer that we not examine them seriously.
Ask yourself, could you, strictly as an intellectual exercise, re-spin this article to present Behe in a favourable light without substantially changing the selection of facts presented? Maybe you could cast him in the role of courageous dissident persecuted by a conformist community. It is an exciting and moving plot. It goes something like this: The narrow minded scientific community pursues its atheistic agenda at all cost! Dissent must not be tolerated! Since they are unable to adequately answer Behe's arguments, the biology faculty of his university takes the unusual step of publishing a rambling statement repudiating his views without addressing them. His status as a scientist is inconvenient, but no matter, his ideas are, with the stroke of a pen, defined as non-science!
The section on the court case presents no more difficulty for our spin-doctor. The case was lost not because Behe's ideas were in any way uncompelling but because they were held to a standard of proof which his opponents, by their own admission, cannot meet for their own ideas. The implication of his testimony (that the [scientific] theory of evolution is merely a reflection of a particular school of thought on the question of the existence of God) were simply too much of a political hot potato, and so the judge punted.
Why is it so easy to spin the facts in the article either way? Because most of them have not been selected to be genuinely informative. They are simply hooks on which speculation is hung.
The Wikipedia rules require us to use only verifiable information about Behe, his views, and the views of his critics. The existing article is short on information and so leaves most of the truly interesting questions about these conflicting views unanswered. I would like to know whether any evolutionary biologists consider any of his criticism to be valid objections pointing to the need for furtherer research. I would also like to understand his relationship to the I.D. movement. Did he start it? Is he a leader, or is he perhaps a tool on the edge of the movement?
The section on Dover could could be very interesting, if improved. Unhappily, the information about Behe's testimony seems to have been selected for juicyness rather than informative power. Questions abound: Did he take a position on the central issue of the case? For example, did he claim that I. D. should be discussed in school? Did he claim that evolution as the origin of species should or should not be taught in school? How did the judge “rely heavily on his testimony” but rule against the side which called him? Had Behe been forced to say things which he did not want so say? Or maybe Behe made other statements which the judge could not accept? If so, what where they? Or maybe the ruling was on narrow legal grounds. Currently we are expected to use our imagination to interpret Behe's statements in a way embarrassing to him.
Answering these questions with the help of reliable sources requires more effort than drawing cynical conclusions. It will also almost certainly paint a more nuanced picture of Lehe that is currently presented in the article. Anyone who wants the article to be a counter-blast to Lehe will be unhappy with the result. But, it will unquestionably be a better, more informative encyclopedia article.
Chappell ( talk) 16:15, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
Doesn't it seem a bit WP:UNDUE to refer to the Behe children's home-schooling? Eugene ( talk) 17:25, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
I'd say no, it's a general biography piece, so it paints a picture of who he is. 65.175.224.90 ( talk) 21:00, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
Exactly. Some of the world greatest thinkers have been schooled at home. Furthermore, kids schooled at home perform better at university that ANY other group. It is a tribute to Behe. Public school alumnists are....less than average ...but they think public school is better.
http://www.thenewamerican.com/culture/education/9034-canadian-study-confirms-advantages-of-homeschooling http://www.degreeinfo.com/off-topic-discussions/35831-so-how-do-homeschooled-students-do-when-they-go-college.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.222.194.29 ( talk) 21:04, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
John C. Avise Footprints of nonsentient design inside the human genome PNAS 2010
Useful analysis and commentary in a very reliable source. Tim Vickers ( talk) 18:19, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
With 61 citations and many other sources cited, and obviously a lot of work and controversy, I am hesitating to suggest it, but perhaps this article is better than Start class now. I leave it to other editors to decide what class it should be. -- DThomsen8 ( talk) 16:05, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
I added the bolded portion this phrase from the second paragraph: Behe's claims about the irreducible complexity of essential cellular structures have been rejected by many members of the scientific community.
My edit was reverted with this remark: "the community as a whole has rejected his ideas as indicated by several sources."
Yet looking at the cited sources, none of them even make that claim. Even if they did, they would clearly not be reliable in making such a claim, because there is no authoritative voice for the "scientific community." (Even the scientific community article states as much.) Thus, while one can easily document that this person or that group has rejected Behe's work, it is impossible to state with any verifiability that the "scientific community as a whole has rejected his ideas." After all, Behe himself (not to mention plenty of other ID proponents) is a member of that community. He is a biochemistry professor at a university, which is a pretty standard qualification for inclusion. He and other ID proponents may well be bad scientists, but they are scientists, nonetheless.
Not only is this claim of a wholesale rejection by the entire scientific community demonstrably untrue on logical grounds, but it's not even supported by the sources cited next to the phrase. EmausPriester ( talk) 01:13, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
Added it to the article but dont know how to cite links http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/dngag/iama_son_of_michael_behe_the_catholic_biochemist/?sort=confidence —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.235.22.93 ( talk) 16:26, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
http://thehumanist.org/september-october-2011/the-humanist-interview-with-leo-behe/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by BradDill9Eever ( talk • contribs) 19:25, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
I reverted an edit which said "His ideas are considered evolution denialism and pseudoscientific". This is a controversial edit that needs consensus first. I thought the lead was fine the way it stood - "religious in nature", "rejected by the vast majority of the scientific community," and that this extra phrase was, at best, overkill. A similar discussion (debating almost the exact phrase) is going on at Talk:Ken Ham/Archive 1#Evolution Denialist, but is yet to reach a consensus. St Anselm ( talk) 06:19, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
Donald E. Simanek PhD specifically refers to Behe as a denialist here. We might want to attribute it to him in the sentence, but overall it makes sense to call a spade a spade here. The denialist statement is unequivocal, while the "rejected by the scientific community" isn't strong enough in my opinion. Still, I would change it to something like "has been characterized as an evolution denialist" as it just sounds better. SÆdon talk 07:56, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
Accuracy is not undesirable; regardless of how you, personally view a term. As uncomfortable as you personally may be with specific content, Wikipedia is a tertiary knowledge resource and as such we must strive for accuracy. If there is something which may be viewed as negative to report about someone, we cannot omit it because it is negative. Including such is not polemic nor controversial. If we did omit any such terms or facts then most biographical articles would be incredibly short and misleading. Maintaining a neutral tone and respect for the subject =/= leaving out relevant information. KillerChihuahua ?!? 13:47, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
As per usual in these cases you are writing the article in the lead; don't. Write the article and summarise it in the lead - if you want this content in the article, then put it in the appropriate place. That will help establish due weight for the lead. -- Errant ( chat!) 00:00, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
This conversation is a little concerning. First things first, 'the term denialism is only controversial to denialists' is plainly absurd. Try applying that same logic to derogative terms for black people, for instance. I'm about as secular as they come and I can see quite clearly how the term is controversial - you want to paint geocentrism in a negative light, just call it 'heliocentrism denial'.
Secondly, the sources used for this sentence are awful. The first [8] is an unusable self-published source that doesn't support the claim that Behe is a denialist. In fact, it specifically distinguishes between 'denial movements' and the 'intelligent design movement', then examines members of the latter: "The Intelligent Design (ID) movement does marginally better, so let's look at a few of the players in this drama". Even if this were not an unusable self-published source, it could only be used to support the connection that Behe is a member of the ID movement.
The second source [9] is equally as bad - this is an opinion piece (Voices is the opinion section of what is effectively the UCLA campus newsletter) that has no specific connection to Behe whatsoever. Attempting to link a generic criticism of ID to the specific subject of Behe's ideas is textbook synthesis. You can't combine source A (Behe believes in ID) with source B (a random UCLA professor says ID is pseudoscience) to produce statement C (Behe's beliefs are pseudoscience). To support this statement, you need a source specifically saying Behe's beliefs are pseudoscience, or you need to rephrase the statement appropriately (eg. "Behe is a believer of intelligent design, a theory regarded as pseudoscience by much of the scientific community").
Thirdly, the sentence "His ideas are considered evolution denialism and pseudoscientific" has no attribution whatsoever. Absent attribution, it suggests 'everyone' considers his ideas as such. An overstatement like this simply can't be included in a BLP and needs to be attributed to one or more sources that specifically assert this fact.
If there are reliable, independent sources specifically linking Behe's beliefs to denialism and pseudoscience, they should be brought forward. Without them, there's very little chance of this sentence being returned to the article. –
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I apologize, have not read fully here, yet I have a simple idea for consideration: Dr. Behe's ideas should generally be considered as Evolutionary Theory denialism [or the denial thereof], as long as Evolutionism itself is classified in the field of Naturalism. His ideas are meta-scientific.... Lehigh's stance is in part that his ideas re Intelligent Design "have no basis in science, & etc." [Please see main article.] Yet a religious, metaphysical, or philosophical concept, such as Intelligent Design, may indeed 'something to do' with science, and even very well at it's roots. It all depends on whether the concept (Intelligent Design) is true or not. The statement by the school assumes the truth of the negative value of ID, and *if that is correct*, sure, ID has no basis in science. (Yet fiat does not work in education.) The point of not having Falsifiability, and of metaphysical conjecture, can be made against the Naturalists themselves... Each side represents a metaphysical position. Therefore, Lehigh's stance that ID has "no basis" in science, without proof, reasons, or even discussion, is a rather rude manner to treat one of their own Professors. Nonetheless, the article had them in quotes. (Agreed.)
I am therefore proposing that a qualifier be attached to the 'Denial' of Evolutionary Theory (because if I recollect accurately, Dr. Behe would uphold the Theory on several points, not all), and suggest using the phrase "Meta-scientific" rather than "Pseudo-scientific". ( John G. Lewis ( talk) 03:53, 4 August 2014 (UTC))
Dave: I was merely reading Wiki late last night, and thought I might drop a helpful comment, or try to.... I saw the heading to this section in Talk, and the statement: "I reverted an edit which said 'his ideas are considered [as] Evolution[ary Theory] denialism, and pseudo-scientific.'" The latter claim is incorrect, but the first does have some limited truth value. I was suggesting a compromise with the individual whoever placed in the statement. Behe will deny certain facets of Evolutionary Theory, but that his work is pseudo-science is really an improper disparagement [as perhaps we both concur]... To sum, that ID may be a metaphysical position does not entail it is pseudo-scientific. And consequently, Dr. Behe, along with many others, such as Dr. William Dembski, Dr. Stephen Meyer, and Dr. Jonathan Wells, will deny Evolutionary Theory, some in totality, some not. Behe is more of an interesting intermediate thinker, more so perhaps on the side of Darwinism than not (as the article suggests), but that he pulls the entire theory of Darwinism away from its formerly central locus of *Naturalism*, and envisions it a much more Metaphysical, and quite possibly Religious, light. Dr. Behe's simple protest is to the Naturalism present in Darwinian Theory. So I might therefore suggest, for the article: "Dr. Behe will deny Darwinism as necessarily being a Naturalistic Theory... In all likelihood, it is not." Is this acceptable? And btw. David: Sorry for the discussion. And you can delete what you want. JGL ( John G. Lewis ( talk) 18:37, 4 August 2014 (UTC))
One more point for all: it seems like Professor M. Behe's ideas are pulling very close to that of Dr. Kenneth R. Miller, as expressed in Finding Darwin's God (1999). The latter's defense of Darwinism, in that book, was in part a reply, and even an attempt at refutation, of Dr. Michael Behe's ideas (see chapter 5). Yet the twain might fundamentally agree on very much. ( John G. Lewis ( talk) 02:10, 7 August 2014 (UTC))
The original read "..which he states supports irreducible complexity, based on the calculation of the probability of mutations required for evolution to succeed. However, the paper does not mention intelligent design nor irreducible complexity, which were removed, according to Behe, at the behest of the reviewers."
This is incoherent and incorrect. I've read the article and as the original entry states, the paper does not mention irreducible complexity. So how can it be true that he states it "supports irreducible complexity" (which is a nonsensical phrase anyway). If he stated this somewhere else it should be cited, but I doubt it since the article has nothing to do with irreducible complexity but rather casts doubt on whether Darwinian processes as currently understood can account for the evolution of biochemical systems. Also, there is no cite for the assertion that "[references to IC were removed, according to Behe, at the behest of the reviewers."
This article still suffers from most of the deficiencies I pointed out over two years ago and still reads very unencyclopedic. I would again suggest that a biographical page is not the place to debate Behe's theories, there are other pages that cover that topic well.
Guettarda, you removed my citation needed tag after "Numerous scientists have debunked the work", claiming in your edit description that "citations are given". Which citations are you referring to? I'm talking about a citation that demonstrates that numerous scientists have debunked the work. I don't see a source that supports that claim. Please show the allegedly given citations. Thanks. Dontreader ( talk) 04:06, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
Dontreader, the citation is the first one in that paragraph, currently #30. It's not original research to say "at least seven scientists have debunked the work" or to say "numerous scientists have debunked the work". If you really wish to get technical about it, see WP:CALC. Manul ~ talk 04:34, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
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There is absolutely no need to spam the word "ID" or Intelligent Design in the whole page. Behe doesn't even disagree with Darwin in some concepts, his work despite some people not agreeing with everything in it has been of great contribution to the debate, the debate of how consistent evolution is, since there's no way to get to the past to make empirical tests, and see how individuals can become populations for example, in order to get populations you must first have individuals. It's the very existence of individuals that is problematic for Darwinism. There is also no proof that DNA mutates based on environment. Darwin didn't know science as we know today, he didn't know how complex DNA is for example. Science is always open to new discovery. Now I don't see any reasons why there's in every line of the page the words intelligent design, it is being used in a very pejorative and sentimental way. DizzinessOfFreedom ( talk) 13:24, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
Why describe intelligent design as "pseudo-scientific"? Is not that violating Wikipedia's policy of Neutral Point of View? Vorbee ( talk) 20:00, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
"We must get the article right. Be very firm about the use of high-quality sources. All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be supported by an inline citation to a reliable, published source. Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion.[1] Users who persistently or egregiously violate this policy may be blocked from editing."
Emphasis mine. 202.27.212.13 ( talk) 09:27, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
BTW, can you let Robynthehode that BLP violations aren't subject to 3RR. I know you guys think you have 6 to my 3. 202.27.212.13 ( talk) I see Just plain Bill just showed up. make that 9 202.27.212.13 ( talk) 09:52, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
Do you want to add that cite after ...Behe's claims about the irreducible complexity of essential cellular structures have been rejected by the vast majority of the scientific community...? Seems appropriate. 202.27.212.13 ( talk) 11:24, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
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change "advocate of the pseudoscientific principle of intelligent design" to "advocate of the scientific principle of intelligent design" or at least just delete the word ""pseudoscientific" Why? Because this unsubstantiated and bigoted verbal attack at the very beginning of the article prejudices the reader before they even have started to read the article. Also, in his latest book, "Darwin Devolves", Behe reasons scientifically, cites numerous peer reviewed journals, and draws scientifically accurate conclusions. Given the evidence presented in this book that shows that random mutations typically remove, not add genetic information, it is the Darwinian industrial complex that is "pseudoscientific". Read the book for yourself if you dare. 24.4.188.64 ( talk) 01:38, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
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In the section Darwin Devolves: Add "in the journal Evolution by Gregory Lang and Amber Rice" to the last sentence to read "and a detailed scholarly rebuttal in the journal Evolution by Gregory Lang and Amber Rice, Behe's own colleagues at Lehigh University." This will be consistent with the way the other scholarly rebuttals are cited in the same sentence. 65.78.107.194 ( talk) 15:35, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
Intelligent design is a textbook case of pseudoscience. Nothing of what we discuss here can change that. tgeorgescu ( talk) 18:47, 1 October 2021 (UTC)
The words "intelligent design" are neither theistic or non-theistic. Intelligent design could be a function of quantum probability, not necessarily the work of a divine Creator. 2600:8801:BE31:D300:7D70:218D:579B:EBC5 ( talk) 19:23, 27 April 2022 (UTC) James.
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Remove the word 'pseudoscientific' from the first sentence. At best it is unnecessary, at worst it establishes/conveys bias against the efforts of an community which is in pursuit of scientific proofs which adhere to the same levels of scientific rigor as any other scientific organization. If the word is to be kept, then it must be demonstrated how creation science is "fake science" otherwise.
I cite other bodies of scientifically untestable bodies of work like big bang cosmology, evolution, string theory, etc. Are those written about using words like "pseudoscientific"? Neuroplexus ( talk) 09:07, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
it must be demonstrated how creation science is "fake science"You forgot to put your cheap tuxedo on.
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Can you elaborate on the undue weight that was contained in the short book summary, and how it detracted from the mainstream context?
Can you elaborate on how moving the discussions of falsifiable and the identity of the intelligent designer into their own sections and out of the Darwin's Black Box section affects undue weight or the mainstream context?-- Swood100 ( talk) 23:13, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
If this were an article on a mainstream subject, then a fringe view would be allowed little or no space. In an article by a person who holds a fringe view, however, the fringe view has to be reported. That’s what the article is about. When there is a difference between the majority view and the fringe view the article must make it clear which is the majority view.
If it is reported that the subject of an article has been accused of engaging in an Argument from Ignorance and he disputes that, then there are three ways to handle it (a) report the accusation but not the denial, (b) report the accusation and just say “The subject denies this.” (c) report the accusation and report the subject’s reasoning as to why he is denying the accusation.
I am following the third approach: explaining the subject’s reasoning. I have tried to trim the response down as much as I can, but there is a limit to this. I certainly think it’s appropriate to report a rejoinder after the response, if one exists, as I included in the “unfalsifiable” portion. I am not attempting to report only one side of the issue. If you think that I am guilty of this, please point it out. But if it takes a few extra paragraphs for Behe’s response to be presented in a coherent fashion, then I don’t see why that should not be done. This is an article about him, after all.-- Swood100 ( talk) 18:48, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
You said that I removed the "mainstream criticism of that view" but in the link you provided, not one word was removed, although the diff may make it look that way. I only inserted a short book summary. Please point out one word that was removed.-- Swood100 ( talk) 18:54, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
If you have specific objections, please state them.-- Swood100 ( talk) 19:11, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
Why don't you just wait, and not assume that because I haven't included a certain rejoinder critical of Behe that I'm not going to. The judge in the Kitzmiller decision had some things to say on this question that were not at all favorable to Behe.-- Swood100 ( talk) 19:49, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
Two accusations are made against Behe:
What I have tried to do is give the reader the relevant facts related to this, as well as the arguments on both sides. This will help anyone who is trying to get to the bottom of these particular accusations to decide the question for himself. Previously, we just said that Doolittle's study refuted Behe. That might be sufficient for someone who is looking for a cursory treatment of the issue, but would not be for someone who wants the issue presented in greater depth. Perhaps we should split the article into an overview at the beginning, and then have a series of sections later on for those who want more information on a particular issue. But for those who come to Wikipedia trying to research the question of intellectual dishonesty or whether Behe has been refuted, I don't see how we get around the need for this level of detail.
Could you elaborate on the whiff of WP:SYNTH you detect here?-- Swood100 ( talk) 16:48, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
Ok, I agree that this is a little ungainly. I can clean it up. Questions:
Ok, I need to rewrite this. It needs to be made clear that the issue here is not whether the blood clotting cascade is irreducibly complex but rather what Behe intended to include in his definition of the blood clotting cascade. Under one definition Doolittle showed it not to be irreducibly complex. Under a different definition Doolittle's study did not address the question that Behe raised. I'll take a shot at it.
Also, WP:SYNTH apparently refers to reaching or implying a conclusion. If the comment about animosity between Behe and Miller is troubling to some I will take it out. It certainly doesn't add anything. As for the rest, I was trying to be scrupulous to avoid reaching any conclusions but I'll have another look at it. Maybe some slipped in.-- Swood100 ( talk) 18:23, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
I received the following message:
Please do not edit an article to promote an individual's point of view, as you did to Michael Behe. Doing so violates Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy and breaches the formal tone expected in an encyclopedia. Thank you. KillerChihuahua?!?Advice 16:57, 9 January 2010
Could the author please explain how my addition promoted an individual's point of view? Miller claimed that Doolittle's study had defeated Behe. Behe replied that this was based on a misreading of what he had said in Darwin's Black Box. I tried to show that the controversy revolved around the proper construction of a certain sentence that Behe had written, and then I quoted Behe as to what he had meant and why it should be construed in a certain way.
What part of this is objectionable?-- Swood100 ( talk) 17:16, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
I see also that Behe's response to the charge that his theory amounts to an Argument from Ignorance has been removed by the same person. Is Behe not permitted to respond to this charge? Please explain.-- Swood100 ( talk) 17:55, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
Someone just reverted my edits, saying that there are "Serious NPOV problems with recent changes." Could that person point out the NPOV problems?-- Swood100 ( talk) 00:30, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
Well, it looks to me like this article is trying to cover some of the major points about Behe and touch on some of the major controversies. Let's take the part about Doolittle and the blood cascade. Presumably that could all be covered in the article dealing with Darwin's Black Box, but most everything else could also be covered in a different article. I simply added his response, which required a little more detail about the controversy. I think that we have to accept that if there's going to be both an article about Behe and one about the book, then there is going to be some overlap. Could you be more specific about what you mean by bloat and WP:SYNTH and unbalance?-- Swood100 ( talk) 16:12, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
I think that it might make sense to divide this article up into various conceptual categories rather than into books. I started to break these categories out and another person objected, saying that he thought it should all stay under the book heading. Much of the material I added was simply Behe’s response to accusations made at the beginning of the section. Perhaps we should break these accusations out into separate sections. Then readers who are only interested in one controversy will be able to find it easily. What is your idea of the proper content of an article such as this?
Clearly, if a response to an accusation is available it needs to be supplied, and when we move from direct quotations to paraphrasing we lose something. This has to be weighed against the benefit to be gained by reducing the size of the article. To eviscerate a response in order to cut it down from two paragraphs to one only makes sense if evisceration is the objective.
Since there was no response to my request that the person doing that massive revert explain his reasons, I undid it. I have no problem with criticism. It's just that we need to go about this in a civilized way: by expressing and discussing specific problems that we see.
I also broke out the major controversies into their own categories.
I start from the proposition that any theory that is to be discussed in Wikipedia should be presented as its proponent would present it, and that it is not proper to present a weakened or diluted version of a theory in order to accomplish goals related to Fringe theories. Those goals must be accomplished through commentary, response and rebuttal in the same article. The reader is entitled to have the actual, original theory presented to him and often there is nobody better able to present it than the fringe scientist himself. If the words of the scientist are used to present the theory there must be no confusion that this is an exposition of the theory by the proponent, and that this is not an explanation of the generally accepted theory. If that is accomplished, then the theory should be presented.
Do you agree with the preceding paragraph?
In his Amazon blog, Behe is explaining that Miller is wrong because he was mistaken as to what Behe's theory was. This serves to explain and define his theory. There is nobody better able to do that than the man himself. And whether it comes from his blog or from a book that he wrote is irrelevant. Is Behe's blog a reliable source? If the question is "Is Behe's theory true?" then Behe's blog is not a reliable source. If the question is "What is Behe's theory?" then the blog is is definitely a reliable source, and that is what it is being used for here. Disagreement?
Can you give me an example of where I "relentlessly bore the reader with endless detail"?
In your third paragraph, I think you are missing the point. The issue here is this: "Did Behe exclude the factors "before the fork in the pathway" from his definition of the irreducibly complex system?" We are trying to determine from his own writing what he wrote and what he meant. How is it giving undue weight to present his own view on this? Certainly the result may be that we do not believe that he "meant" something that was not explicitly expressed. That was the conclusion drawn by both Miller and the judge. And how can it be concluded that his viewpoint was the last word in the discussion when the judge formally found that Miller's view was the correct one? That Behe did not publish this in a scientific article would be relevant to whether the blood clotting mechanism is irreducibly complex. It is not relevant to the determination of how he defined the system that he said was irreducibly complex. For that, we just look at what he wrote.
Was there a point you were making that I did not address?-- Swood100 ( talk) 15:08, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
I have heard people assert that there are issues with the edits I have made. Each time, I have asked the person to please point out the specific text he or she is talking about and what the specific issue is, but nobody has done that. Then I get accused of being hard of hearing. Now somebody else has come along and done a major revert with no explanation.
To the people who have a problem with what I have added: how about some specifics? It is not enough just to throw out major categories such as WP:DUE, WP:NPOV and WP:FRINGE. I have read those but I need you to tell me specifically, in English, (a) what text is objectionable, and (b) what is the specific objection. Otherwise, how can we even discuss it? One person says "This is WP:NPOV." The next person says "No it's not." That's not productive. You need to point out the exact text and explain why you think it falls under an objectionable category.
Now Simonm223 has come along and reverted everything to some arbitrary point. Please explain (and please don't just recite category names).-- Swood100 ( talk) 19:51, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
Is there anybody here who is arguing that it is never permissible to use a fringe scientist's own words to explain what his theory is? And that it is never permissible to show such a scientist's response to the charges made against him? I hope that everyone realizes how absurd that is. No matter what the theory is, it should be presented as the proponent presents it. How else does the reader know what the position is? Then should follow appropriate response and rebuttal. Any other approach that I'm aware of has no justification.-- Swood100 ( talk) 23:37, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
Let's see if we understand each other correctly. When the subject of an article is a fringe scientist:
Suppose we have a fringe scientist who believes that Copernicus had it wrong and that in fact the Ptolemaic system is the one that is correct. He believes this is true because over time he can see the planets going around in circles in the sky. If this man has achieved sufficient notoriety to warrant his own article, you would argue that his descriptions of the Ptolemaic system, being the one that he asserts is the correct one, and statements of his planetary observations, may not be used in the article since (a) this violates parity of sources, (b) presenting his theory through the use of his own words would constitute the making of an argument on his behalf, and (c) there would be no way, then, that it would be possible to present modern experts who could demonstrate to the reader how far off-base this man is. You say that when a reader wants to understand a man's theory, hearing it expressed by the man himself does not tend to clarify exactly what the theory is. Rather, that is to be avoided in the case of a fringe theory because of the likelihood that no cogent arguments will be available to show the flaws in the fringe theory, and because consequently people will be led astray.
Please correct any point that I am not understanding correctly.-- Swood100 ( talk) 22:07, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
Alright then, let's start with the Doolittle paragraph. You have it ending like this: "This defeats a key claim in Behe's book, that blood clotting is 'irreducibly complex." My additions show that this is a disputed point. I try to point out clearly that the dispute revolves around the pages in Darwin's Black Box where Behe says that the blood clotting cascade is irreducibly complex, meaning that if you remove one of the factors the system will no longer work. Doolittle found that the pufferfish was missing three of the factors and the system still worked. Miller said that his disproves Behe's prediction. Behe said that he had excluded those three factors from his definition of the irreducibly complex system, and so Doolittle's finding did not conflict with his prediction. The answer to the question revolves around how you interpret the simple English he used on pages 86 and 87 of his book. I maintain that since this is a disputed point, and since it can be explained in a brief space, it should be explained. And I believe that Behe's remark about the "principle of malicious reading" is relevant in that it shows his belief that a good-faith reading of what he wrote supports his position. I also included references showing the reader how to get to the relevant testimony of both Miller and Behe on this issue. These additions are more helpful to the reader than just declaring that one of the sides was correct.-- Swood100 ( talk) 17:14, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
If you have a problem with the Miller-Behe remarks being framed as a debate that can easily be remedied. I'll just give Miller's assertion and then Behe's response.-- Swood100 ( talk) 17:17, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
If you are having a problem with Behe's Argument From Ignorance response, the response could be paraphrased but I'm not sure what that would accomplish. All his points (or "talking points" as you put it) would still need to be included, because they constitute his answer to the charge. I have no objection to removing the blockquotes and displaying this all as one paragraph with regular quotes.-- Swood100 ( talk) 18:22, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
So, you do not object to the undoing of your revert as long as we leave out Behe's current response to the charge that his theory amounts to an Argument From Ignorance and see if we can come up with a better one. However, you are not proposing that Behe's response to this charge could legitimately be excluded altogether. Is this correct?-- Swood100 ( talk) 22:39, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
If there is anybody else who has a problem with any of my edits, please let me know what text you are referring to and what the nature of the issue is.-- Swood100 ( talk) 01:11, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
The following statement was made above:
I am personally opposed to including a list of Behe talking points as they strike me as a WP:COATRACK for his opinion.
The critical thing that this person is failing to realize is that the only thing that this article is about is Behe's opinion and how it differs from mainstream scientific opinion. People come to this article because they want to know about Behe's opinion - i.e. his theory. I think that this is the essence of the problem that people have with my edits. They don't want Behe's opinion to be expressed. Is there anybody who has a problem with my edits for some other reason? The solution is not to muzzle Behe. The solution is in the rebuttal. If anyone is aware of any strong, succinct rebuttals that I have overlooked, please point them out to me. I will be happy to present them as powerfully as I can.-- Swood100 ( talk) 01:27, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
If there are no further objections at this point, I will restore my edits, excluding the part about the Argument from Ignorance. I was never happy with that anyway because the quotations from Behe only made reference to chapters in his book where he says that he made arguments that were not merely negative. And the opposing quotations just spoke at a general level. And we need to also include the "God of the gaps" accusation (a form of Argument from Ignorance). We need to reference some specific arguments that Behe says turn his position into something other than an Argument from Ignorance. We also need specific rebuttals: why the particular arguments he is making fail to rescue his position from being an Argument from Ignorance and/or fail to be cogent arguments against the mainstream position. The web is a big place. If anybody knows of any good material on either side, and hasn't got the time right now to incorporate it into the article, just make a little note right here on this page, saying: "Check out this link" and I will either form it into a compact argument or I will tell you why I believe that there might be a better source for that particular point (or I will tell you that I haven't got any time right now to do any editing). The bottom line is this:
It is important that the various views and the subject as a whole are presented in a balanced manner and that each is summarized as if by its proponents to their best ability. Wikipedia:NPOV_tutorial.
Finally, fringe theories that oppose reliably sourced qualitative research - denialist histories, for example - should be described clearly within their own articles, but should not be given undue weight in more general discussions of the topic. Wikipedia:Fringe_theories
-- Swood100 ( talk) 14:05, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
You are treating this article as if it were an article on a general subject, such as Evolution, in which Behe's theory can be treated as a fringe theory and excluded or truncated because of due weight when compared with the major theories. However, this is an article about a person who is notable because of his fringe theory. Are you saying that in a biography of such a person an exposition of his theory can be excluded on the grounds that it is a fringe theory?
Here are the requirements of WP:NPOV:
It is true that the only people who have spoken up so far are those who are trying to enforce their own negative point of view about Behe in this article. But an article cannot ignore the requirements of WP:NPOV, even by consensus.
I described earlier the reason for my changes related to the Doolittle issue. What do you find objectionable about that?-- Swood100 ( talk) 20:22, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
You said that this is not the page to debate Behe's ideas. Is this the page to describe Behe's ideas? If both sides are not going to be portrayed, should we remove all disparagement of Behe's ideas? What exactly belongs on this page?-- Swood100 ( talk) 20:39, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
OK, although there are more than two parties there appear to be only two sides, so Wikipedia:Third opinion appears to be available. Would you agree to that?-- Swood100 ( talk) 22:38, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
I support swood100, I think he is correct in including the quotes. Consensus is not required for the edits, a proper argument against them is. Simonm223 have not made a proper argument against, otherwise I would support removal. You Simonm223 are the one WP:IDIDNOTHEARTHAT as far as I can see. 65.175.224.90 ( talk) 20:55, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
From Wikipedia:Fringe_theories
From Wikipedia:Reliable_sources
From Wikipedia:Reliable_source_examples
-- Swood100 ( talk) 00:13, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
This article has serious BLP issues.
When writing BLP's one must be hyper cautious when making statements about a person's work that could affect their livelihood. Some highlights from WP:BLP which this article fails:
Although per WP:BP these entries should be removed immediately and without discussion, I am posting this as a courtesy to interested editors to provide an opportunity to resolve these issues.
In addition, the entire article is written in a very non-encyclopedic tone. See WP:Words_to_avoid for hints on improving this aspect of the article. I would suggest that much of the material here doesn't belong in a biography and should be moved to the article on ID where editors have more latitude to discuss scientific controversies without running into BLP restrictions. JPatterson ( talk) 15:52, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
I agree with Swood100 that this article reads like a propaganda piece. I understand that the editors disagree with his ideas. But that does not excuse the sniping that runs through much of the article. Some of the more serious problems:
I do not believe that adding more rebuttals from Behe will help. Doing so would simply make the article more confusing than it already is. Instead it needs to be reorganized so that the reader can clearly see what his views are, to what extent they differ from mainstream thought, and to what extent his opponents have addressed his points.
Chappell ( talk) 9 January 2010
If I could make a suggestion, I would reword the the lead paragraph to something like
Michael J. Behe (born January 18, 1952) is an American biochemist and author best known for his theory of irreducible complexity criticizing some aspects of evolutionary theory that is held by the vast majority of scientist. He currently serves as professor of biochemistry at Lehigh University in Pennsylvania and as a senior fellow of the Discovery Institute's Center for Science and Culture.
This solves the problem of juxaposing the two opposing views without introducing difficult to source statements. The statement on evolution doesn't have to have a reference since it is in the lead and presumably would be expanded upon in the article (see WP:LEAD). I would also suggest again that this is not the best place to proxy the evolution v creationist battle. If it were me, per WP:SS, I'd have a section summarizing his views and their critique with a link to the main article on irreducible complexity . Another short summary section for the book and its critique, linking to the main article on that topic. The section on "the wedge" or whatever its called has interesting information not covered elsewhere so it should stay although it could use a good clean up. As it stands there's too much back and forth that is irrelevant to a biography. In any case, I don't have a dog in the hunt so don't shoot the messenger. I'm just on BLP patrol. JPatterson ( talk) 13:48, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
Many things were removed from this article that should not have been removed. I reverted back to the last consensus version. I'm in favor of moving forward, trimming, rewriting, etc. but it absolutely must be done with consensus and not unilaterally. ScienceApologist ( talk) 15:20, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
Somebody has clearly got so worked up about Behe's theories that they insist on having a refutation of them in the intro, taking up more space than the rest of the intro put together. This is clearly not balanced and should be removed. DJ Clayworth ( talk) 15:24, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
Let's do it the other way. Pick one from the list below (not the first three - 1 has already been discussed and is clearly WP:SYNTH, 2 is fixed and 3 is a minor point) and show how the analysis is incorrect. And yes, paraphrasing a source is fine but it has to be a paraphrase. You can't make a source say something it doesn't. Nor can you "read between the lines" and make explicit something you tthink is implicit in the text. JPatterson ( talk) 22:36, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
This section is nearly half of the article, and really needs to be trimmed some. A significant amount of the length is from the many long quotes from the book, from critics and from Behe's responses to criticism. I think most of those quotes can be removed, with the critical comments and responses replaced by summaries. There is an article for the book already, so I don't think this section needs to be quite so long. Thoughts before I start up the weed whacker and go trimming? Ravensfire ( talk) 16:50, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
I'm posting this here again with greater detail so as to be able to link from BLP/N because we're not supposed to post problematic material there.
JPatterson ( talk) 20:43, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
Indented comments not in italics are mine.
Guettarda ( talk) 07:23, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
OK, past my bedtime, but this is an important source. Guettarda ( talk) 07:48, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
Since no one has challenged #9 above which from a legal stand-point is the most problematic I have deleted this sentence from the article. JPatterson ( talk) 19:33, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
@Guettarda re 5: It certainly works for me. JPatterson ( talk) 06:11, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
Some seem to believe that the demands that this article be rewritten to conform to various Wikipedia policies are a smokescreen for Behe apologists. They seem to think that the article as it is does a good job of showing Behe to be a nut-case or a charlatan.
Leaving aside the question of whether the purpose of an encyclopedia article is to persuade, I think they overestimate the article's persuasive power. I suggest they try to read it through in the role of devil's advocate. Much of what was previously damning evidence now looks like spin-doctoring. Many of the 'talking points' are now simply unexplained digressions or trivia. All the reader comes away with is the idea that someone feels threatened by Behe's ideas and would prefer that we not examine them seriously.
Ask yourself, could you, strictly as an intellectual exercise, re-spin this article to present Behe in a favourable light without substantially changing the selection of facts presented? Maybe you could cast him in the role of courageous dissident persecuted by a conformist community. It is an exciting and moving plot. It goes something like this: The narrow minded scientific community pursues its atheistic agenda at all cost! Dissent must not be tolerated! Since they are unable to adequately answer Behe's arguments, the biology faculty of his university takes the unusual step of publishing a rambling statement repudiating his views without addressing them. His status as a scientist is inconvenient, but no matter, his ideas are, with the stroke of a pen, defined as non-science!
The section on the court case presents no more difficulty for our spin-doctor. The case was lost not because Behe's ideas were in any way uncompelling but because they were held to a standard of proof which his opponents, by their own admission, cannot meet for their own ideas. The implication of his testimony (that the [scientific] theory of evolution is merely a reflection of a particular school of thought on the question of the existence of God) were simply too much of a political hot potato, and so the judge punted.
Why is it so easy to spin the facts in the article either way? Because most of them have not been selected to be genuinely informative. They are simply hooks on which speculation is hung.
The Wikipedia rules require us to use only verifiable information about Behe, his views, and the views of his critics. The existing article is short on information and so leaves most of the truly interesting questions about these conflicting views unanswered. I would like to know whether any evolutionary biologists consider any of his criticism to be valid objections pointing to the need for furtherer research. I would also like to understand his relationship to the I.D. movement. Did he start it? Is he a leader, or is he perhaps a tool on the edge of the movement?
The section on Dover could could be very interesting, if improved. Unhappily, the information about Behe's testimony seems to have been selected for juicyness rather than informative power. Questions abound: Did he take a position on the central issue of the case? For example, did he claim that I. D. should be discussed in school? Did he claim that evolution as the origin of species should or should not be taught in school? How did the judge “rely heavily on his testimony” but rule against the side which called him? Had Behe been forced to say things which he did not want so say? Or maybe Behe made other statements which the judge could not accept? If so, what where they? Or maybe the ruling was on narrow legal grounds. Currently we are expected to use our imagination to interpret Behe's statements in a way embarrassing to him.
Answering these questions with the help of reliable sources requires more effort than drawing cynical conclusions. It will also almost certainly paint a more nuanced picture of Lehe that is currently presented in the article. Anyone who wants the article to be a counter-blast to Lehe will be unhappy with the result. But, it will unquestionably be a better, more informative encyclopedia article.
Chappell ( talk) 16:15, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
Doesn't it seem a bit WP:UNDUE to refer to the Behe children's home-schooling? Eugene ( talk) 17:25, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
I'd say no, it's a general biography piece, so it paints a picture of who he is. 65.175.224.90 ( talk) 21:00, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
Exactly. Some of the world greatest thinkers have been schooled at home. Furthermore, kids schooled at home perform better at university that ANY other group. It is a tribute to Behe. Public school alumnists are....less than average ...but they think public school is better.
http://www.thenewamerican.com/culture/education/9034-canadian-study-confirms-advantages-of-homeschooling http://www.degreeinfo.com/off-topic-discussions/35831-so-how-do-homeschooled-students-do-when-they-go-college.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.222.194.29 ( talk) 21:04, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
John C. Avise Footprints of nonsentient design inside the human genome PNAS 2010
Useful analysis and commentary in a very reliable source. Tim Vickers ( talk) 18:19, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
With 61 citations and many other sources cited, and obviously a lot of work and controversy, I am hesitating to suggest it, but perhaps this article is better than Start class now. I leave it to other editors to decide what class it should be. -- DThomsen8 ( talk) 16:05, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
I added the bolded portion this phrase from the second paragraph: Behe's claims about the irreducible complexity of essential cellular structures have been rejected by many members of the scientific community.
My edit was reverted with this remark: "the community as a whole has rejected his ideas as indicated by several sources."
Yet looking at the cited sources, none of them even make that claim. Even if they did, they would clearly not be reliable in making such a claim, because there is no authoritative voice for the "scientific community." (Even the scientific community article states as much.) Thus, while one can easily document that this person or that group has rejected Behe's work, it is impossible to state with any verifiability that the "scientific community as a whole has rejected his ideas." After all, Behe himself (not to mention plenty of other ID proponents) is a member of that community. He is a biochemistry professor at a university, which is a pretty standard qualification for inclusion. He and other ID proponents may well be bad scientists, but they are scientists, nonetheless.
Not only is this claim of a wholesale rejection by the entire scientific community demonstrably untrue on logical grounds, but it's not even supported by the sources cited next to the phrase. EmausPriester ( talk) 01:13, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
Added it to the article but dont know how to cite links http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/dngag/iama_son_of_michael_behe_the_catholic_biochemist/?sort=confidence —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.235.22.93 ( talk) 16:26, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
http://thehumanist.org/september-october-2011/the-humanist-interview-with-leo-behe/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by BradDill9Eever ( talk • contribs) 19:25, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
I reverted an edit which said "His ideas are considered evolution denialism and pseudoscientific". This is a controversial edit that needs consensus first. I thought the lead was fine the way it stood - "religious in nature", "rejected by the vast majority of the scientific community," and that this extra phrase was, at best, overkill. A similar discussion (debating almost the exact phrase) is going on at Talk:Ken Ham/Archive 1#Evolution Denialist, but is yet to reach a consensus. St Anselm ( talk) 06:19, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
Donald E. Simanek PhD specifically refers to Behe as a denialist here. We might want to attribute it to him in the sentence, but overall it makes sense to call a spade a spade here. The denialist statement is unequivocal, while the "rejected by the scientific community" isn't strong enough in my opinion. Still, I would change it to something like "has been characterized as an evolution denialist" as it just sounds better. SÆdon talk 07:56, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
Accuracy is not undesirable; regardless of how you, personally view a term. As uncomfortable as you personally may be with specific content, Wikipedia is a tertiary knowledge resource and as such we must strive for accuracy. If there is something which may be viewed as negative to report about someone, we cannot omit it because it is negative. Including such is not polemic nor controversial. If we did omit any such terms or facts then most biographical articles would be incredibly short and misleading. Maintaining a neutral tone and respect for the subject =/= leaving out relevant information. KillerChihuahua ?!? 13:47, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
As per usual in these cases you are writing the article in the lead; don't. Write the article and summarise it in the lead - if you want this content in the article, then put it in the appropriate place. That will help establish due weight for the lead. -- Errant ( chat!) 00:00, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
This conversation is a little concerning. First things first, 'the term denialism is only controversial to denialists' is plainly absurd. Try applying that same logic to derogative terms for black people, for instance. I'm about as secular as they come and I can see quite clearly how the term is controversial - you want to paint geocentrism in a negative light, just call it 'heliocentrism denial'.
Secondly, the sources used for this sentence are awful. The first [8] is an unusable self-published source that doesn't support the claim that Behe is a denialist. In fact, it specifically distinguishes between 'denial movements' and the 'intelligent design movement', then examines members of the latter: "The Intelligent Design (ID) movement does marginally better, so let's look at a few of the players in this drama". Even if this were not an unusable self-published source, it could only be used to support the connection that Behe is a member of the ID movement.
The second source [9] is equally as bad - this is an opinion piece (Voices is the opinion section of what is effectively the UCLA campus newsletter) that has no specific connection to Behe whatsoever. Attempting to link a generic criticism of ID to the specific subject of Behe's ideas is textbook synthesis. You can't combine source A (Behe believes in ID) with source B (a random UCLA professor says ID is pseudoscience) to produce statement C (Behe's beliefs are pseudoscience). To support this statement, you need a source specifically saying Behe's beliefs are pseudoscience, or you need to rephrase the statement appropriately (eg. "Behe is a believer of intelligent design, a theory regarded as pseudoscience by much of the scientific community").
Thirdly, the sentence "His ideas are considered evolution denialism and pseudoscientific" has no attribution whatsoever. Absent attribution, it suggests 'everyone' considers his ideas as such. An overstatement like this simply can't be included in a BLP and needs to be attributed to one or more sources that specifically assert this fact.
If there are reliable, independent sources specifically linking Behe's beliefs to denialism and pseudoscience, they should be brought forward. Without them, there's very little chance of this sentence being returned to the article. –
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06:22, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
I apologize, have not read fully here, yet I have a simple idea for consideration: Dr. Behe's ideas should generally be considered as Evolutionary Theory denialism [or the denial thereof], as long as Evolutionism itself is classified in the field of Naturalism. His ideas are meta-scientific.... Lehigh's stance is in part that his ideas re Intelligent Design "have no basis in science, & etc." [Please see main article.] Yet a religious, metaphysical, or philosophical concept, such as Intelligent Design, may indeed 'something to do' with science, and even very well at it's roots. It all depends on whether the concept (Intelligent Design) is true or not. The statement by the school assumes the truth of the negative value of ID, and *if that is correct*, sure, ID has no basis in science. (Yet fiat does not work in education.) The point of not having Falsifiability, and of metaphysical conjecture, can be made against the Naturalists themselves... Each side represents a metaphysical position. Therefore, Lehigh's stance that ID has "no basis" in science, without proof, reasons, or even discussion, is a rather rude manner to treat one of their own Professors. Nonetheless, the article had them in quotes. (Agreed.)
I am therefore proposing that a qualifier be attached to the 'Denial' of Evolutionary Theory (because if I recollect accurately, Dr. Behe would uphold the Theory on several points, not all), and suggest using the phrase "Meta-scientific" rather than "Pseudo-scientific". ( John G. Lewis ( talk) 03:53, 4 August 2014 (UTC))
Dave: I was merely reading Wiki late last night, and thought I might drop a helpful comment, or try to.... I saw the heading to this section in Talk, and the statement: "I reverted an edit which said 'his ideas are considered [as] Evolution[ary Theory] denialism, and pseudo-scientific.'" The latter claim is incorrect, but the first does have some limited truth value. I was suggesting a compromise with the individual whoever placed in the statement. Behe will deny certain facets of Evolutionary Theory, but that his work is pseudo-science is really an improper disparagement [as perhaps we both concur]... To sum, that ID may be a metaphysical position does not entail it is pseudo-scientific. And consequently, Dr. Behe, along with many others, such as Dr. William Dembski, Dr. Stephen Meyer, and Dr. Jonathan Wells, will deny Evolutionary Theory, some in totality, some not. Behe is more of an interesting intermediate thinker, more so perhaps on the side of Darwinism than not (as the article suggests), but that he pulls the entire theory of Darwinism away from its formerly central locus of *Naturalism*, and envisions it a much more Metaphysical, and quite possibly Religious, light. Dr. Behe's simple protest is to the Naturalism present in Darwinian Theory. So I might therefore suggest, for the article: "Dr. Behe will deny Darwinism as necessarily being a Naturalistic Theory... In all likelihood, it is not." Is this acceptable? And btw. David: Sorry for the discussion. And you can delete what you want. JGL ( John G. Lewis ( talk) 18:37, 4 August 2014 (UTC))
One more point for all: it seems like Professor M. Behe's ideas are pulling very close to that of Dr. Kenneth R. Miller, as expressed in Finding Darwin's God (1999). The latter's defense of Darwinism, in that book, was in part a reply, and even an attempt at refutation, of Dr. Michael Behe's ideas (see chapter 5). Yet the twain might fundamentally agree on very much. ( John G. Lewis ( talk) 02:10, 7 August 2014 (UTC))
The original read "..which he states supports irreducible complexity, based on the calculation of the probability of mutations required for evolution to succeed. However, the paper does not mention intelligent design nor irreducible complexity, which were removed, according to Behe, at the behest of the reviewers."
This is incoherent and incorrect. I've read the article and as the original entry states, the paper does not mention irreducible complexity. So how can it be true that he states it "supports irreducible complexity" (which is a nonsensical phrase anyway). If he stated this somewhere else it should be cited, but I doubt it since the article has nothing to do with irreducible complexity but rather casts doubt on whether Darwinian processes as currently understood can account for the evolution of biochemical systems. Also, there is no cite for the assertion that "[references to IC were removed, according to Behe, at the behest of the reviewers."
This article still suffers from most of the deficiencies I pointed out over two years ago and still reads very unencyclopedic. I would again suggest that a biographical page is not the place to debate Behe's theories, there are other pages that cover that topic well.
Guettarda, you removed my citation needed tag after "Numerous scientists have debunked the work", claiming in your edit description that "citations are given". Which citations are you referring to? I'm talking about a citation that demonstrates that numerous scientists have debunked the work. I don't see a source that supports that claim. Please show the allegedly given citations. Thanks. Dontreader ( talk) 04:06, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
Dontreader, the citation is the first one in that paragraph, currently #30. It's not original research to say "at least seven scientists have debunked the work" or to say "numerous scientists have debunked the work". If you really wish to get technical about it, see WP:CALC. Manul ~ talk 04:34, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
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There is absolutely no need to spam the word "ID" or Intelligent Design in the whole page. Behe doesn't even disagree with Darwin in some concepts, his work despite some people not agreeing with everything in it has been of great contribution to the debate, the debate of how consistent evolution is, since there's no way to get to the past to make empirical tests, and see how individuals can become populations for example, in order to get populations you must first have individuals. It's the very existence of individuals that is problematic for Darwinism. There is also no proof that DNA mutates based on environment. Darwin didn't know science as we know today, he didn't know how complex DNA is for example. Science is always open to new discovery. Now I don't see any reasons why there's in every line of the page the words intelligent design, it is being used in a very pejorative and sentimental way. DizzinessOfFreedom ( talk) 13:24, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
Why describe intelligent design as "pseudo-scientific"? Is not that violating Wikipedia's policy of Neutral Point of View? Vorbee ( talk) 20:00, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
"We must get the article right. Be very firm about the use of high-quality sources. All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be supported by an inline citation to a reliable, published source. Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion.[1] Users who persistently or egregiously violate this policy may be blocked from editing."
Emphasis mine. 202.27.212.13 ( talk) 09:27, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
BTW, can you let Robynthehode that BLP violations aren't subject to 3RR. I know you guys think you have 6 to my 3. 202.27.212.13 ( talk) I see Just plain Bill just showed up. make that 9 202.27.212.13 ( talk) 09:52, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
Do you want to add that cite after ...Behe's claims about the irreducible complexity of essential cellular structures have been rejected by the vast majority of the scientific community...? Seems appropriate. 202.27.212.13 ( talk) 11:24, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
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change "advocate of the pseudoscientific principle of intelligent design" to "advocate of the scientific principle of intelligent design" or at least just delete the word ""pseudoscientific" Why? Because this unsubstantiated and bigoted verbal attack at the very beginning of the article prejudices the reader before they even have started to read the article. Also, in his latest book, "Darwin Devolves", Behe reasons scientifically, cites numerous peer reviewed journals, and draws scientifically accurate conclusions. Given the evidence presented in this book that shows that random mutations typically remove, not add genetic information, it is the Darwinian industrial complex that is "pseudoscientific". Read the book for yourself if you dare. 24.4.188.64 ( talk) 01:38, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
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In the section Darwin Devolves: Add "in the journal Evolution by Gregory Lang and Amber Rice" to the last sentence to read "and a detailed scholarly rebuttal in the journal Evolution by Gregory Lang and Amber Rice, Behe's own colleagues at Lehigh University." This will be consistent with the way the other scholarly rebuttals are cited in the same sentence. 65.78.107.194 ( talk) 15:35, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
Intelligent design is a textbook case of pseudoscience. Nothing of what we discuss here can change that. tgeorgescu ( talk) 18:47, 1 October 2021 (UTC)
The words "intelligent design" are neither theistic or non-theistic. Intelligent design could be a function of quantum probability, not necessarily the work of a divine Creator. 2600:8801:BE31:D300:7D70:218D:579B:EBC5 ( talk) 19:23, 27 April 2022 (UTC) James.
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Remove the word 'pseudoscientific' from the first sentence. At best it is unnecessary, at worst it establishes/conveys bias against the efforts of an community which is in pursuit of scientific proofs which adhere to the same levels of scientific rigor as any other scientific organization. If the word is to be kept, then it must be demonstrated how creation science is "fake science" otherwise.
I cite other bodies of scientifically untestable bodies of work like big bang cosmology, evolution, string theory, etc. Are those written about using words like "pseudoscientific"? Neuroplexus ( talk) 09:07, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
it must be demonstrated how creation science is "fake science"You forgot to put your cheap tuxedo on.