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In the head paragraph, it's mentioned that Mexico's economy is the 12 in the world, which is not true, it the 14, also then it's said that it's on par with Spain and Canada, which is false, because they have larger economies, they are the 8 and 9 largest economies in the world. And even more, later in the paragraph it is mentioned that it is nearly of the size of France and UK economies, when this nations are the 5 and 6 largest economies in the world, being there GDP more than three times the size of Mexico's.
The geography section used to say that Mexico is located "in the mid-latitudes" of the Americas. Where I challenged this (by adding the "citation needed" tag, as stated in Wikipedia policies) because I have sources that indicate that Mexico is in fact in the northern latitudes. Gently, user Corticopia provided a source, but it seems that the article is speaking about the North American continent, rather than the "Americas". Can somebody else please read the article and tell me what they think? Here is the link. I also believe that sometimes the article is referring to the mid-latitudes of Mexico itself. Please read and comment.
So I changed the description to say that Mexico is "located in the mid-latitudes of North America". Of course I did this only until another source is provided and the "mid-latitudes" point is proved right. Thank you for reading. I also added the sources that indicate that Mexico is in the northern latitudes. Alex Covarrubias ( Talk? ) 13:38, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
IMHO, characterising the location of Mexico as being in the upper/northern/middle/lower latitudes of America/North America/Middle America/the Americas is imprecise and not really worthy of space in the article. It is also surprisingly contentious. How about "Mexico is located between latitudes 16 and 32 degrees North", or something along that line. Wanderer57 00:29, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Following the Wikipolicies about controversial changes being discussed, and the argument of "talk before introducing", I reverted the addition of the template "Middle America". What are my reasons? The following:
Also:
Thank you for your time reading this and please reply. Alex Covarrubias ( Talk? ) 14:58, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
I will like to see a picture of the Basilica de Guadalupe under religion as this is an very important symbol of religion in mexico. Can some one help put a image up? 76.235.132.48 00:28, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
In a similar vein, I think the Religion/Catholic section should have a reference and a link to the article about "Our Lady of Guadalupe". (Don't know how to create this.) Wanderer57 23:04, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
In the sport section, regarding about the soccer in Mexico the references to the mesoamerican ball game are totally inacurate, mainly because it states that the aztecs used heads to play its ritual game which is completly false since they used a rubber made ball, I also disagree totally with later part of the paragraph that states soccer was inspired by the mesoamerican ball game which is also incorrect becuase by the time modern soccer was created (1863) mesoamerican ball was no longer played and also because the games is not really similar to soccer it has more similarities with basketball or even volleyball. Pure 360x 18:05, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm wondering whether the word "Azpec", which has just been introduced into this article, is correct. In a Google search, Azpec is the name of an optics company in Singapore. In a Wikipedia seach, Azpec does not show up anywhere else.
Wanderer57 22:48, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
(FROM the introduction to the article) As the only Latin American member of the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) since 1994, Mexico is firmly established as an upper middle-income country. Elections held in July 2000 marked the first time that an opposition party won the presidency to the Institutional Revolutionary Party (Partido Revolucionario Institucional: PRI), that held it since 1929, culminating a process of political alternation that had begun at the local level since the 1980s.
The first sentence is a bit confusing. How about changing it to: "As a member of the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) since 1994 (the only Latin American member), Mexico is firmly established as an upper-middle-income country."
The second sentence is very confusing. I wonder if it is supposed to say: "Elections held in July 2000 marked the first time that an opposition party won the presidency FROM the Institutional Revolutionary Party (Partido Revolucionario Institucional: PRI), which had held it since 1929. This was the culmination of a process of political ALTERATION that began at the local level DURING the 1980s."
-- Someone should check this carefully. I'm just guessing what it was meant to mean.
(FROM the start of the Geography section of this article) Mexico is situated in the northern[13][14]/mid-latitudes of the Americas.[15] Its territory comprises much of southern North America,[16][17] or also within Middle America.[18][19]
I can't even guess what the "or also" bit is intended to mean.
Please will someone check this?
Wanderer57 00:23, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Wanderer57 again. When I raised the points about the opening sentences of the Geography section, I had no idea that there had been a previous huge debate about those very sentences. If I had known, I hope I would have had enough sense to leave it alone. However, having put my foot in it, I stand by the statement that the second sentence is ungrammatical and unclear. Wanderer57 07:27, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
In dealing with a controversial point, the business of putting in and taking out content without trying to explain the changes strikes me as unproductive and perhaps childish.
Somebody has once more put back the sentence "Its territory comprises much of southern North America, or also within Middle America." I would really like to know why that person prefers "or also within" rather than "and" or "or".
As I noted above, I think the phrase "or also within" is ungrammatical and confusing. I have not seen any discussion of why this wording makes sense.
Also, I wonder who is the target audience for this part of the Mexico article? On one hand, someone who is trying to locate Mexico probably does not know what Middle America means. On the other hand, a person who knows the meaning of the term Middle America likely already knows where Mexico is. Wanderer57 23:05, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
This is getting too controversial, Corticopia let me remind you that you've been block I don't know how many times already for the same reason, it is been more than a simply "editor's contribution" for you, you've been constantly trying to minimise the fact that Mexico is in North America (MEX,USA,CAN) and promote the inclusion of it in Middle America, which is right, Mexico is in both so called regions, but anyone how's been following your record will notice that you've been more than "pushy" about it, you even created the Middle America template (pretty convenient) to support you "unpretentious will to contribute".
Having said that, I propose that we simply re-write the sentence as:
It wouldn’t be controversial whatsoever; it would perfectly describe Mexico’s position, with no POV’s involved and will lead user to get their own conclusions. Supaman89 03:34, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
I’ve been blocked twice precisely for engaging in editwars with you, but that can’t be compared with all the times you were blocked (at least four) for the same reason, and you still tell me that it is all due your “unpretentious will to help”?
You also mentioned that a number of interpretations in English include only the United States and Canada in North America, ok so why don’t we compare the number of interpretations that put Mexico in North America to the ones that place it in “Middle America” (which by the way is almost unknown by most people)
BTW, who’s QneB? He came all of a sudden specifically to edit this article, with no record, he didn’t even put a reason for his first edit (which was exactly like yours), that’s pretty convenient don’t you think? You’ve been accused of Sockpuppetry in the past, how do I know this isn’t the same case? Supaman89 16:46, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
I accidentally discovered Wikipedia few days ago and I wanted to add new information to this article but that information is already in the article. I have read this talk and I want to know why only 2 editors decide about something and it is changed. I want to say sorry to Superman89 because I erased his edits but I think there was nothing wrong with the templates of countries. But this time I support his proposal, to avoid "controversies" the latitudinal and longitudinal points should be mentioned instead of "north - mid latitudes" so I'm gonna add that —Preceding unsigned comment added by QneB ( talk • contribs) 18:16, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Ah and another thing why it is mentioned mex is in southern north america and not in northern middle america? it is the same, the exact location of both regions should be mentioned. —Preceding unsigned comment added by QneB ( talk • contribs) 18:22, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
You didn't answer my question about North America being remarkably more acceptable and representative than Middle America.
BWT, the first North America (upfront) refers to the continent, the second one would refer to the region, also NA & SA are two separate continent why would you have to make the reference regarding Mexico’s position counting both of them? (Americas) that’s like saying “Ukraine is in the Middle Eurasia” Supaman89 03:26, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
I want to remind you that we are not discussing the existence of the term Middle America. It does exist, and of course it has to be included in the article. The problem here is that Corticopia wants to give Middle America the same weight that North America, a real widely-use term, in the same line. That is an undue weight problem. One must not present or give minoritary or rare point of view or information the same importance than those widely accepted. The fact is that Middle America is not as used as NA. As Supaman said, there's no economical, political, militar or else institution, dialogue or organization linking the countries of this area. The sentence must be clear, and indicate that Mexico is included in that region, but that it is not commonly used. So I propose the following:
Those lines make perfectly clear that Middle America is a region, that Mexico is part of it, but that is not equally used as North America.
Alex Covarrubias ( Talk? ) 06:01, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Again, as it is been demonstrated and proved in various posts above, they can't be given the same weight, but since you (Corticopia) didn't even bother answering with proper facts, I'll repeat them here: "there are no official organizations or anything tiding up such region, as for the North American Region which has plenty of treaties reinforcing the US, Canada and Mexico’s relationships as a solid block" Supaman89 15:43, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
The mention of the treaties wasn’t meant in that way, they do not create the region, they reinforce it, that’s just another reason why NA is more representative, hence has more weight than MA.
Here’s another proposal:
Supaman89 18:30, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
I just want to add that Corticopia has been editing the article WITHOUT waiting to see if the other editors involved in this discussion agreed, and describing his edits as "per talk", which is false. So, moving on people, this are the proposals and the support they have received directly from the editors. Please add your name if you agree with any of the following:
Agreed by: Wanderer57 and Jcmenal
Agreed by: Supaman89
Agreed by: AlexCovarrubias, Wanderer57, Jcmenal and Supaman.
Agreed by: Corticopia
Again, please add your name if you support any of them. I'm happy to see that we're finally very close to end this. Alex Covarrubias ( Talk? ) 19:27, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Well this discussion has pretty much ended, all the users that were participating have voted (except Corticopia), which I'm assuming will vote for his own proposal, still AlexCovarrubias' proposal has the most votes, I'll just wait for him to edit it himself. Supaman89 01:57, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
+-+-+
As Wanderer said, we are approaching to a solution and that is very good. I also want to narrow my vote then, and I will only support my version. I don't want this to become a never ending topic. Thanks to everyone. Alex Covarrubias ( Talk? ) 03:41, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
I don't mind working towards a (grammatically correct and accurate) solution -- and we rather did beforehand, perhaps imperfectly, until recently -- but NOT one that is brokered by the boosterist, edit-warring editors who are largely responsible for this morass. A number of the proposed options are unnecessarily wordy, and sounding encyclopedic is not asking too much: after all, that is what Wikipedia is (supposed to be). To get to that point, perhaps the proposed variants are in need of the attention of other uninvolved editors ... i.e., present company excluded. I may support other renditions, but reserve judgement for now per Dunadan. Thus, we may need to post an RfC to get that: really, I think this option is something to be welcomed and may be feared by boosterist editors who may get something they do not expect. As for AC's 'comments', well, no comment. Corticopia 17:26, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
I want to kindly ask Dunadán to reconsider his position. Dúnadan, I don't want this to sound like a ad hominen attack against Corticopia, but his behaviour is less than desireable. For instance, he fully supported Wanderer57's opinion, and on the basis of ONLY their two opinions, CHANGED the consensual version. It didn't seem to bother him at all. Then, after days of debate, he realizes the upcoming solution is not going to be anything like he wanted, and he decides to call "invalid" the debate, and even critized Wanderer. He's obvioulsy trying to play with the "rules" to get what he wants. C'mon Dun, don't tell me you don't see this. Alex Covarrubias ( Talk? ) 20:25, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
I was wandering if we should change the current map for one like the follwing: What do you guys think? Supaman89 02:05, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Maybe I am missing something. I don't see how the new one is better.
Wanderer57
03:28, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
I think that the current map is better, because it is colored thus more visually appealing. Alex Covarrubias ( Talk? ) 22:32, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
I also prefer the current one for the global location.
Let me bring this issue again: Please take a look to the states map in the Spanish version of the article. As much as I appreciate the work behind the current states map in the English version, I believe that insisting in keeping it, and presenting State names incomplete, made-up abbreviations without any warning that they are not official or even known in Mexico, for the sake of "graphic appeal" is plain mediocrity. Sorry if anyone feels personally insulted, not my intention. I'm looking for correctness first, and my proposals on this topic reverted with no solid reason.
Before I put any time into editing the article to later find it scrapped, I'd like to have your OK in using this map & table: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico#Divisi.C3.B3n_pol.C3.ADtico-administrativa
Thanks
Rodulfo 19:48, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
This might be a stupid question but, is it just me or some pictures actually don't show up? when I click on them they do appear but in the article they do not, I might just be my anti-virus though, anyway that's why I'm asking, does anyone else have the same problem?. Supaman89 17:43, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
However, Mexico has come under scrutiny for the alleged inhumane manner they treat incoming illegal immigrants from El Salvador, eliciting accusations of hypocrisy and human rights abuses [44].
Can this be removed due to being a dead link...?
MiztuhX 09:10, 26 September 2007 (UTC)Miztuhx 26 Sep 07 MiztuhX 09:10, 26 September 2007 (UTC) Wow, I don't even know where that is, but if there is no reliable link, sure go ahead and remove it. Supaman89 17:44, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Why did the name Mejico become Mexico in the United States? And when did this happen? SpankTank 00:32, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
this is obviosly a huge mistake made by someone who edited the page, probably an intentional one. You just have to look at a list of countries by their GDP and see that both the UK and France have a GDP nearly three times bigger than Mexico's. I don't think that that person was talking about GDP per capita either:) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shaghion ( talk • contribs) 07:45, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
I was asked to review this article by AlexCovarrubias, and have listed multiple items that should be addressed for the article to reach Good Article status. I have looked over the entire article, focusing on the requirements of the GA criteria. Although the following list is long, by addressing the issues, the article will be signficantly improved. If any of the points seem harsh, forgive me, I'm only showing what I think will improve the article based on prior experience. The largest issue with the article is insufficient sourcing, and I have listed almost 30 statements that should have inline citations added after them. Once you have addressed these issues and looked over the rest of the criteria (which focuses on stability, image, and NPOV issues), consider nominating the article at Good article nominations. If you have any questions over something I wrote here or disagree on some points (if Mexican English follows different grammar rules then what I may have pointed out, feel free to correct me), then let me know on my talk page and I'll be happy to get back to you as soon as I can. A good way to show your progress in improving the article would be to use the strikethrough feature or put checkmarks next to the fixed items. In conclusion, I hope you do address these issues to help significantly improve the article and help it reach higher quality in educating the many readers who reference this article. Good job so far and happy editing! -- Nehrams2020 06:30, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
General fixes:
Add inline citations for:
-- Nehrams2020 06:30, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
So far, I have corrected almost all of the problems listed as general fixes. I also included an inline citation for Televisa. Alex C. ( Talk? ) 00:13, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Whoa! I added more inline citations. Just 13 more to go. Anybody wants to help me? :( Alex C. ( Talk? ) 00:56, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, I have left 3 more inline citations to go. Alex C. ( Talk? ) 21:42, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
"Maria Candelaria (1944) by Emilio Fernández, was one of the first films awarded a Palme d'Or at the Cannes Film Festival in 1946"
According to the Palme d'Or article in Wikipedia, this was first awarded in 1955. Before that was the Grand Prix du Festival International du Film.
Wanderer57 22:48, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
I think the same words should not be used in the Introduction and in the Economy section. It would be better if one was changed.
I think saying that "It is an upper middle-income country...." or "Mexico is an upper middle-income country...." is quite definite. Adding "firmly established" does not make it any more definite, just more wordy. Wanderer57 23:02, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
This is one paragraph, with two long, run-on sentences. It would be better if they were divided.
Here is the current version:
According to the World Tourism Organization Mexico has one of the largest tourism industries in the world, in 2005 it was the Seventh main destination worldwide, being by far the only country in Latin America to be in the top 25. Mexico's middle/lower class usually promotes national tourism, compared to the middle/higher class that travels worldwide especially Europe and the United States but also Asia and South America, in fact Mexico is the twenty-third tourism spender in the world, again being the highest in Latin America.
I suggest:
According to the World Tourism Organization, Mexico has one of the largest tourism industries in the world. In 2005 it was the seventh most popular destination worldwide, and the only country in Latin America in the top 25. Mexico's middle/lower class usually promotes national tourism, compared to the middle/higher class who travel worldwide, especially to Europe and the United States but also Asia and South America. Mexico is the twenty-third highest tourism spender in the world, and the highest in Latin America.
As well as dividing this into four sentences, I made a few other minor changes which I think are improvements.
I'm wondering about this bit: "Mexico's middle/lower class usually promotes national tourism".
I think this is intended to mean that Mexico's middle/lower class usually take their holidays in Mexico. But the word "promotes" makes it say that Mexico's middle/lower class is advertising national tourism. Wanderer57 23:23, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
No, I can't think of a word to substitute directly for "promotes" in that sentence.
The problem with "by far" is this. "By far" makes sense for comparing things. For example, "by far the biggest", by far the smallest", "by far the prettiest", "by far the best Italian singer in the world".
So I could say: "The grey mare is by far the fastest horse on the ranch".
"By far" doesn't work well for situations where something is either "A" or "B".
So it is awkward to say: "The grey mare is by far the only fast horse on the ranch."
I have the same problem with saying "by far the only country in Latin America to be in the top 25."
To get around these problems, see what you think of this wording:
According to the World Tourism Organization, Mexico has one of the largest tourism industries in the world. In 2005 it was the seventh most popular tourist destination worldwide, and in the Americas it is second only to the USA.
Mexico's middle/lower class tourists typically stay within Mexico, in contrast to the middle/higher class who travel worldwide, especially to Europe and the United States, and in lesser numbers to Asia and South America. Mexico is the twenty-third highest tourism spender in the world, and the highest in Latin America.
Here is a reference for "in the Americas it is second only to the United States of America." http://www.world-tourism.org/facts/eng/pdf/barometer/WTOBarom06_2_en.pdf
Any good?? Wanderer57 03:38, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
There is no problem about making comparisons. My problem with "so far" was it did not fit well in that sentence. My reason for comparing to the USA was not because someone said it was larger than the USA. I thought that saying "second only to the USA" was quite impressive. Wanderer57
According to the World Tourism Organization, Mexico has one of the largest tourism industries in the world. In 2005 it was the seventh most popular tourist destination worldwide receiving over 20 million tourists a year; it is the only country in Latin America to be within the top 25.
Mexico's middle/lower class typically have their vacations within Mexico, in contrast to the middle/higher class who travel worldwide, especially to Europe and the United States, and in lesser numbers to Asia and South America. Mexico is the twenty-third highest tourism spender in the world, and the highest in Latin America.
Those sentences seem fine to me. In 2nd sentence, it should be "year; it is", not "year, it is". - - I wonder if the terms middle/lower class and middle/higher class should have links to the articles Lower Middle Class and Upper Middle Class. - - Thanks, Wanderer57 23:13, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Ok, then we'll stick to that one, I'll add up those links you mention as well, if you see anymore grammatical mistakes just let us know. Supaman89 01:48, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
The opening of the article:
For other uses, see Mexico (disambiguation). "Mexican" and "Mexicans" redirect here. For other uses, see Mexican (disambiguation).
Either the first or last sentence should be dropped. Does it matter which one? Wanderer57 02:39, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
I think that's much better. I would just change it slightly.
"This article is about the country in North America. Mexican(s) redirects here. For other uses, see Mexico (disambiguation) or Mexican (disambiguation)." Wanderer57 04:29, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Suggested wording changes to these sentences from the introduction.
Since partaking in the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) in 1994, its economy has diversified and grown to become world's 12th largest, and has the economical power to match nations such as the Canada and Spain. Elections held in July 2000 marked the first time that an opposition party won the presidency to the Institutional Revolutionary Party (Partido Revolucionario Institucional: PRI) that held it since 1929, culminating a process of political alternation that had begun at the local level since the 1980s.
Here it is with suggested changes bolded.
Since joining the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) in 1994, its economy has diversified and grown to become the world's 12th largest. Mexico has the economic power to match nations such as Canada and Spain. Elections held in July 2000 marked the first time that an opposition party won the presidency to the Institutional Revolutionary Party (Partido Revolucionario Institucional: PRI) which had held it since 1929, culminating a process of political alternation that had begun at the local level since the 1980s.
Notes:
"partaking in" is perhaps not strictly wrong but it is a very unusual use of the word.
The first sentence was too long.
"economic" is the word needed, "economical" has a narrower meaning (efficient, not wasteful of resources).
Canada, not "the Canada".
The last sentence is not clear. I do not know the history but I think perhaps it should say: "marked the first time that an opposition party won the presidency from the Institutional Revolutionary Party "
Also, "had begun at the local level since the 1980s." suggests the process began after the 1980s. Maybe it is supposed to say: "began at the local level during the 1980s." ??
I hope this is useful. Wanderer57 19:59, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Good point. If you can find the rank in 1994, you could say "Since joining the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) in 1994, Mexico's economy has diversified and grown from XXth largest in the world to 12th largest." This would indicate it was not all due to NAFTA, but that NAFTA had a positive effect. Wanderer57 02:01, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
I notice someone put "partaking" back in the Introduction. It is not a good word in that context. If you don't believe me, ask someone you trust. Wanderer57 19:16, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
That's why Wanderer and I were discussing the new wording, but we are not in a hurry or anything, so please do not change it without consulting us first, thank you. Supaman89 00:41, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
A subsection dealing with Culture that doesn't include the literature produced by members of that culure is lacking. I see the performing/visual arts are represented. Is there any objection to adding literature to this. I admit a certain bias towards Carlos Fuentes and Juan Rulfo, and really wouldn't be able to give much shrift to feminist writers, but im sure someone else could fill in the blanks. Die4Dixie 06:13, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Most internationally recognized dishes should include chocolate. Chacolate has mostly been consumed as a beverage or in a sauce for thousands of years. Putting chocolate with other crops seems rather odd, one can’t plant chocolate, though it can be created —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
124.180.41.139 (
talk)
04:52, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
The last sentence is: "In lieu with this new openness in Mexico's foreign policy, some political parties have proposed an amendment of the Constitution in order to allow the Mexican Army, Air Force or Navy to collaborate with the United Nations in peace-keeping missions, or to provide military help to countries that officially ask for it."
I think this should be "In line with", not "In lieu with". Wanderer57 00:51, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
The Introduction section ends with: "which had held it since 1929, culminating a process of political alternation that actively had begun at the local level during the 1980s."
I have read this several times and have a vague feeling that there was something wrong in it. I think political alternation is not a "process". I suggest the word "pattern" instead. Wanderer57 22:52, 13 October 2007 (UTC) (I am not making a change to the article as I don't know anything about Mexican politics. My comment is based only on my understanding of the meaning of the words.)
Sorry to take so long on this. I'm still thinking this over because the wording is very tricky. I'm handicapped by not knowing the history.
If saying "process of democratization" or "process of electoral reform" is reasonably accurate, that is much better than saying "process of alternation" because it is more specific.
This is what I do not know: during the time period mentioned, did Mexico move from a "one party system" to a multi-party system? OR was it a matter of going from a multi-party system with one HUGE party and a bunch of small ones, to a multi-party system where more than one party had a chance to win an election??? Wanderer57 06:56, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
0
In term of per capita income and other statistics, Mexico is far from a deveoped country, not to mention a fully developed country. It is listed in Developing country as a newnly industrialized country. Google search result can show numerous sources refering Mexico as a developing country. Coasilve 03:16, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Mexico's per capita income is world average. It is not a developed country. I find it ridiculous there are still someone arguing with me. Coasilve 03:50, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Well in that sense, two references currently used in the article don't justify Mexico as a developed country too. What's important is that Mexico only has a world average percapita income. That makes it not a developed country. Coasilve 04:26, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
It is at the begining of the third paragraph. "As a regional power and a full-fledged developed country [6][7] and the only Latin American member of the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) since 1994." Coasilve 18:37, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Well, I made a few mistakes with so, but I want to say something. though Mexico is third worldish in the south, in the north it is as large and complete as the USA.
Its not fully developed, however, its northern part have cities that are even larger than American cities, it cannot stand to their economy, but it can to its full growth. I think its better to use "partly developed country. You haven't searched as well for Spanish result searching developed. In this link, you will find an opposing idea to the developing country thing: http://club.telepolis.com/geografo/regional/america/ibmexico.htm . Not even countries such as the US, which have the largest economy have getting rid of poverty. If speaking in poverty terms, Mexico does not count, but in that case, Costa Rica would be first world since the UK has only 1% less poverty than CR.
We need to reach an agreement in which we state if we are taking Economy, development or life quality. Newstormer 21:54, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Poverty comparative: Economy of the United Kingdom Industry comparative: Economy of Italy Gross domestic product comparative: Economy of Greece
with all these, plus the cities, the number of companies and billionaires, the fast growth, the large manufacturing and the huge urban area, it looks like Mexico overpowers even France.
Though it is a NIC, its full growth is stronger than other European countries, and since all the European countries are developed countries. Mexico is at least partly developed, but its totally sure that Mexico is first world and no third world. Newstormer 21:37, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
However, all European countries are developed and they are a few which aren't as developed as Mexico, I doubt that data from the CIA and the IMF is recent, Mexico is in the less a half developed country. It may be a fourth world country, not industrialized but with high standards of living. If Italy is developed, why Mexico isn't... I suggest you to instead make comparatives to European countries, since they are all developed, if Mexico is stronger than them, it means Mexico is developed. NIC doesn't reveal the development, but the industrialization levels. Newstormer 17:24, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I understand that you're trying to put that Mexico is a full-fledged developed country, and I mean, that's fine sometimes I feel so as well, in fact I'm probably one of the most patriotic persons there is, but we gotta be honest, even though northern Mexico is definitely developed, the southern part of the country, is still developing, and I mean I don't want people thinking we are telling lies or something like that, because then they'll think that the rest of the article is "biased" as well. I understand that Hollywood has given us a lot of bad reputation, and we all want to clean all those stereotypes but as long as there is people living in “third worldish” conditions in the southern states we cannot say that we are fully developed, cuz that could lead to more negative consequences that positive ones. Supaman89 03:05, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
I know, and I never said otherwise, that's why wrote him that message. Supaman89 16:29, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
I recently updated the area of the country but it was reversed to its previous value quoting "more sources". I believe that the important thing is not the amount of sources but their accuracy. If the National Geography and Statistics Institute and the Presidential Office website state that the area is X sq. Km, shouldn't we taking this values instead? I mean they are Official sources anyway, aren't they? EOZyo ( мѕğ) 00:39, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
i disagree with one of the assertations in the paragraph about the evolution of the word "mexico". i read the link that the source cited, the real academia, and it never says that the sound was voiced.
also i am well versed in romance linguistics and i have never read anything that posits a voicing of spanish sibilants in their evolution. i've been out of the game for a while so the only source that comes to mind is Ralph Penny (1991) "A History of the Spanish Language"
this is a tiny detail that may not interest anyone but i read the article and this discrepancy stuck out to me.
zach
66.235.34.185 19:11, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
I think that this link should be added to the external links section. It will provide this article will personal opinions and stories specifically relating to the subject. This will add a more personnel outlet if the viewer feels inclined to follow the link.
Here is the link:
Can anybody tell me what Mexico's national bird is? I'd like to add a photo of the appropriate species to the lead paragraph of List of birds of Mexico. Also, is there any reference available that talks about the eagle on the Mexican coat of arms? It would be nice to know if that was modeled after a real species (and thus something I can add to an appropriate picture caption), or if it's just a generic eagle! Thanks for any help you can offer. MeegsC | Talk 18:44, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
From the topographic map, it looks as if Distrito Federale is close to the highest elevation in all of Mexico. Is this true?
If it is, why do people say DF is in "the Valley of Mexico"?
Thanks,
( Wanderer57 04:22, 3 November 2007 (UTC))
I did a few edits in Toponymy & Pre-Columbian civilizations. I think they are straightforward. I'll be glad to explain if asked. I got rid of a few excess words.
I notice in the section "Pre-Columbian civilizations", only the first sentence is about Pre-Columbian civilizations.
Wanderer57 14:42, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
The new part added by Dropmeoff is great because it gets rid of the impression that the history of southern North America began when the Spanish arrived. Wanderer57 02:52, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
I think it's unnecessary and repetitive, but that's just my opinion. Supaman89 20:25, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
I've noticed that there seems to be a preoccupation with only the last 500 years (and especially the last 150 years) of Mexico's history on this page. The post-Conquest section is enormous, while the Pre-Columbian section seems to be deliberately whittled down to being almost insignificant. I have added Pre-Columbian material but it always seems to be deleted. Would you write a history of Israel section like that? Would you say that Israel's history should focus only on the Post-Hitler era? The vast bulk of Mexico's history occurred before Europeans arrived. That is not opinion. That is a fact that seems to be deliberately omitted here. If you're going to have 3 paragraphs on the Mexican Revolution here, then you should have at least that much for the thousands of years of history before the Conquest. The many Pre-European civilizations deserve more than a couple of lines. Dropmeoff 16:51, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
I am pasting in, for reference, the paragraphs by Dropmeoff that started this discussion.
- - -
Human presence in Mexico has been shown to date back 40,000 years based upon ancient human footprints discovered in the Valley of Mexico [1] (previous evidence substantiated indigenous inhabitants at 12,500 years ago). For thousands of years, Mexico was a land of hunter-gatherers. Around 9,000 years ago, ancient Mexicans domesticated corn and initiated an agricultural revolution, leading to the formation of many complex civilizations. These civilizations revolved around cities with writing, monumental architecture, astronomical studies, mathematics, and militaries. After 4,000 years, these civilizations were destroyed with the arrival of the Spaniards in 1519. For three centuries, Mexico was colonized by Spain, during which time the majority of its indigenous population died off. Formal independence from Spain was recognized in 1821. France then invaded Mexico in 1864 and ruled briefly until 1867, when the Mexican army captured and executed the monarch Maximilian of Habsburg. A war with the United States ended with Mexico losing almost half of its territory in 1848 and the Mexican Revolution would later result in the death of 10% of the nation's population. Since then, Mexico as a nation-state has struggled with reconciling its deeply-entrenched indigenous heritage with the demands of the modern Western cultural model imposed in 1519. The nation's name is derived from the Mexica civilization (known in popular culture as the Aztecs).
- - - end of pasted in part.
Was the main objection to the pre-Columbian part having it in a summary at the beginning of the History?? I'm going to put the first part of the above into the article for editors to see how it fits. I'll then revert it. Wanderer57 00:11, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Mexico&oldid=169990085
See recent edits to the Ethnogrophy section, under Mestizo it currently reads: "it is merely a self description instead of a physical one, a mestizo might be european or native looking as long as he/she has some background from a different race."
In my opinion the definition of Mestizo in this section: (those of European and Amerindian ancestry) is sufficient; by definition someone who has mixed ancestry could look more like one than the other. If someone needs a further definition of Mestizo they can click on the link. The paragraph as it stands now is redundant and doesn't make a lot of sense in English. In the interest of avoiding an edit war I am posting this to the talk page to sollicit other opinions. Following is my proposal for how the paragraph should read:
Mestizos (those of mixed European and Amerindian ancestry) form the largest group, comprising up to 60%–75% of the total population. Vrac 01:46, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
The word mestizo is a racial description, see:
http://www.bartleby.com/61/26/M0242600.html. It is not a matter of opinion, it is simply what the word means in English. Secondly your edits assert that mestizo is self-ascribed, which it is not, since the figures come from the CIA. In order to assert that mestizo is self-ascribed, you would have to be able to cite a survey of Mexicans in which they describe themselves as such. Perhaps such a survey exists but I am not aware of one; "ask any Mexican" unfortunately is not a citeable source. Thirdly, since mestizo means a mixture of races (and the paragraph further defines mestizo as people of mixed European and Amerindian ancestry), by definition someone who is mestizo could have any possible ratio of characteristics from any of the races involved. Saying that their physical appearance could more closely ressemble one race rather than the other is redundant.
Vrac
23:00, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Whether or not mestizo is a racially charged or politically inappropriate term strikes me as a separate issue from what is being discussed here (we were discussing whether or not the term mestizo is "self-ascribed", or needs a further clarification by stating a mestizo person could look more European, or more Amerindian, etc...). Do you have a proposal for removing it or replacing it with something else? Perhaps a different thread for that issue would be appropriate. Vrac 00:24, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
When I say racial description, I mean that mestizo is a term that describes what race I belong to. It answers the question: What race are you? Answer: I am mestizo. Ergo mestizo is a description of my race. This meaning of mestizo is in the dictionary, I don't see how anyone can dispute that it is a description of race. If by racial description you mean physical description, i.e. what someone looks like, no generic racial terms can capture the variety of appearances. Are you saying that all black people look the same? Black people from Senegal are not physically identical to black people in Senegal, I could post pictures of African-Americans of mixed race that demonstrate just as much variety as the pictures of Mexicans. Having a "universal image" of what black people look like strikes me as being prejudicial. When saying that the US is X percent African-American, I haven't seen it qualified as: "and some of them look more like Europeans than Africans". As for self-ascription, unless you can cite some data isn't it just your opinion? See NPOV. Can you find some documentation about what kids are tought in Mexican schools about mestizo? I haven't looked at the wiki article on Mestizo, but it seems to me that it is the place where this kind of information/clarification/discussion belongs. Vrac 01:58, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Seeing the amount of discussion, it seems that the word has multiple meanings and certainly multiple connotations. Wanderer57 18:45, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
To everybody in this discussion: I am sorry if I wasn't clear. I didn't express any opinion about whether mestizo is a racist term. I made my comment because, while reading the discussion, I wondered if some of the disagreements were due to different uses of terminology.
To Dropmeoff: I would never say the N-word is not a racist term. It is of course. However, for example, the words "oriental" and "caucasian" are "about race", but are not racist (in my experience). There may be places in the world and ways of using these words in which they are racist. The context is so important. (Probably any "non-racist word about race" can be used in a racist way by simply putting the word "F__king" in front of it.)
There is a word fairly commonly used in Canada to mean people with some ancestors who were native North Americans and some ancestors who came from Europe. The word is Metis. To quote an Oxford dictionary:
Metis -> noun (in Canada) a person of mixed race, especially the offspring of a white person and an American Indian. The Merriam Webster dictionary definition is "one of mixed blood, especially the offspring of an American Indian and a person of European ancestry.
Both dictionaries link Metis to Mestizo. One says "more at Mestizo", the other says "see also Mestizo". Both "metis" and "mestizo" come from a Latin word that means "mixed.
The Oxford defines mestizo as "a person of mixed blood; specifically a person of mixed European and American Indian ancestry." The Merriam Webster is more specific and defines mestizo as "(in Latin America) a man of mixed race, especially the offspring of a Spaniard and an American Indian." (mestiza if the person is female.)
I can hear people saying SO, WHAT'S YOUR POINT?. It is this:
In Canada, through much of Canadian history, the word "Metis" has been used as a derogatory term. ALSO in Canada, people of Metis background are extremely proud of their heritage, culture, and accomplishments. And rightly so.
In some cases, Metis is used in a negative and racist way. In other cases, it is used with great pride.
My belief, based on reading the earlier discussion, is that the word "mestizo" is also used in both ways. Wanderer57 23:50, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
I adhere to Supaman's point of view. The term "Mestizo" is rarely used in a derogatory way, or as a racist term. It is the common term used in Mexican textbooks to refer to people of european and amerindian ancestry, and the term used to denominate the majority of the people living in Mexico, also in the same textbooks. This term is nevertheless mostly associated with individuals that lived in the Colonial and Independence times. It is rarely used to describe a current figure. You wouldn't see a textbook referring to current President Calderon as Mestizo. Hugo cantu ( talk) 00:04, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
someone should at least mention the horrible police/legal system in mexico. The police steal your money if you are american, the police will hold you until you pay them cash (out of your own pocket). the police hate americans. can someone please include this in the artice. this is a problem that needs to be mentioning. thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.42.211.4 ( talk) 22:51, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Wow we most be the worst country on earth. (~.~) Supaman89 01:00, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
We will include it when you edit the article on the USA and mention the hatred for Mexicans by the police... 189.153.81.205 04:00, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't there be a section on the national holidays of Mexico? Maybe just a list or links to pages about the holidays (Cinco de Mayo, Dia Del Nino, Navidad, etc.). nd2010 16:45, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Can someone link the wikipedia article Mexican pop under Pop for this article to have a more throughow representation of popular music in Mexico. In additin feel free to edit this article for a more respectable and informative outlook on the genre in Mexico. 75.62.146.6 ( talk) 08:31, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
The 2004 HDI report on Mexico (ref 58) is not available at the link provided. It also comes up on a google search under the same, missing link so mustve been taken down. Anyone know where it might be? (I also wanted to cite the HDI comparison between northern states and the EU & Southern states and Africa to demonstrate income disparity ina paper!) 172.200.6.43 ( talk) 15:28, 18 November 2007 (UTC) HDI for mexico is .829 now. Ranked 52 for 2007. The HDI on the page is too old ( 2004 ) 67.107.23.194 ( talk) 18:09, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 10 |
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 10 |
In the head paragraph, it's mentioned that Mexico's economy is the 12 in the world, which is not true, it the 14, also then it's said that it's on par with Spain and Canada, which is false, because they have larger economies, they are the 8 and 9 largest economies in the world. And even more, later in the paragraph it is mentioned that it is nearly of the size of France and UK economies, when this nations are the 5 and 6 largest economies in the world, being there GDP more than three times the size of Mexico's.
The geography section used to say that Mexico is located "in the mid-latitudes" of the Americas. Where I challenged this (by adding the "citation needed" tag, as stated in Wikipedia policies) because I have sources that indicate that Mexico is in fact in the northern latitudes. Gently, user Corticopia provided a source, but it seems that the article is speaking about the North American continent, rather than the "Americas". Can somebody else please read the article and tell me what they think? Here is the link. I also believe that sometimes the article is referring to the mid-latitudes of Mexico itself. Please read and comment.
So I changed the description to say that Mexico is "located in the mid-latitudes of North America". Of course I did this only until another source is provided and the "mid-latitudes" point is proved right. Thank you for reading. I also added the sources that indicate that Mexico is in the northern latitudes. Alex Covarrubias ( Talk? ) 13:38, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
IMHO, characterising the location of Mexico as being in the upper/northern/middle/lower latitudes of America/North America/Middle America/the Americas is imprecise and not really worthy of space in the article. It is also surprisingly contentious. How about "Mexico is located between latitudes 16 and 32 degrees North", or something along that line. Wanderer57 00:29, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Following the Wikipolicies about controversial changes being discussed, and the argument of "talk before introducing", I reverted the addition of the template "Middle America". What are my reasons? The following:
Also:
Thank you for your time reading this and please reply. Alex Covarrubias ( Talk? ) 14:58, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
I will like to see a picture of the Basilica de Guadalupe under religion as this is an very important symbol of religion in mexico. Can some one help put a image up? 76.235.132.48 00:28, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
In a similar vein, I think the Religion/Catholic section should have a reference and a link to the article about "Our Lady of Guadalupe". (Don't know how to create this.) Wanderer57 23:04, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
In the sport section, regarding about the soccer in Mexico the references to the mesoamerican ball game are totally inacurate, mainly because it states that the aztecs used heads to play its ritual game which is completly false since they used a rubber made ball, I also disagree totally with later part of the paragraph that states soccer was inspired by the mesoamerican ball game which is also incorrect becuase by the time modern soccer was created (1863) mesoamerican ball was no longer played and also because the games is not really similar to soccer it has more similarities with basketball or even volleyball. Pure 360x 18:05, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm wondering whether the word "Azpec", which has just been introduced into this article, is correct. In a Google search, Azpec is the name of an optics company in Singapore. In a Wikipedia seach, Azpec does not show up anywhere else.
Wanderer57 22:48, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
(FROM the introduction to the article) As the only Latin American member of the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) since 1994, Mexico is firmly established as an upper middle-income country. Elections held in July 2000 marked the first time that an opposition party won the presidency to the Institutional Revolutionary Party (Partido Revolucionario Institucional: PRI), that held it since 1929, culminating a process of political alternation that had begun at the local level since the 1980s.
The first sentence is a bit confusing. How about changing it to: "As a member of the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) since 1994 (the only Latin American member), Mexico is firmly established as an upper-middle-income country."
The second sentence is very confusing. I wonder if it is supposed to say: "Elections held in July 2000 marked the first time that an opposition party won the presidency FROM the Institutional Revolutionary Party (Partido Revolucionario Institucional: PRI), which had held it since 1929. This was the culmination of a process of political ALTERATION that began at the local level DURING the 1980s."
-- Someone should check this carefully. I'm just guessing what it was meant to mean.
(FROM the start of the Geography section of this article) Mexico is situated in the northern[13][14]/mid-latitudes of the Americas.[15] Its territory comprises much of southern North America,[16][17] or also within Middle America.[18][19]
I can't even guess what the "or also" bit is intended to mean.
Please will someone check this?
Wanderer57 00:23, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Wanderer57 again. When I raised the points about the opening sentences of the Geography section, I had no idea that there had been a previous huge debate about those very sentences. If I had known, I hope I would have had enough sense to leave it alone. However, having put my foot in it, I stand by the statement that the second sentence is ungrammatical and unclear. Wanderer57 07:27, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
In dealing with a controversial point, the business of putting in and taking out content without trying to explain the changes strikes me as unproductive and perhaps childish.
Somebody has once more put back the sentence "Its territory comprises much of southern North America, or also within Middle America." I would really like to know why that person prefers "or also within" rather than "and" or "or".
As I noted above, I think the phrase "or also within" is ungrammatical and confusing. I have not seen any discussion of why this wording makes sense.
Also, I wonder who is the target audience for this part of the Mexico article? On one hand, someone who is trying to locate Mexico probably does not know what Middle America means. On the other hand, a person who knows the meaning of the term Middle America likely already knows where Mexico is. Wanderer57 23:05, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
This is getting too controversial, Corticopia let me remind you that you've been block I don't know how many times already for the same reason, it is been more than a simply "editor's contribution" for you, you've been constantly trying to minimise the fact that Mexico is in North America (MEX,USA,CAN) and promote the inclusion of it in Middle America, which is right, Mexico is in both so called regions, but anyone how's been following your record will notice that you've been more than "pushy" about it, you even created the Middle America template (pretty convenient) to support you "unpretentious will to contribute".
Having said that, I propose that we simply re-write the sentence as:
It wouldn’t be controversial whatsoever; it would perfectly describe Mexico’s position, with no POV’s involved and will lead user to get their own conclusions. Supaman89 03:34, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
I’ve been blocked twice precisely for engaging in editwars with you, but that can’t be compared with all the times you were blocked (at least four) for the same reason, and you still tell me that it is all due your “unpretentious will to help”?
You also mentioned that a number of interpretations in English include only the United States and Canada in North America, ok so why don’t we compare the number of interpretations that put Mexico in North America to the ones that place it in “Middle America” (which by the way is almost unknown by most people)
BTW, who’s QneB? He came all of a sudden specifically to edit this article, with no record, he didn’t even put a reason for his first edit (which was exactly like yours), that’s pretty convenient don’t you think? You’ve been accused of Sockpuppetry in the past, how do I know this isn’t the same case? Supaman89 16:46, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
I accidentally discovered Wikipedia few days ago and I wanted to add new information to this article but that information is already in the article. I have read this talk and I want to know why only 2 editors decide about something and it is changed. I want to say sorry to Superman89 because I erased his edits but I think there was nothing wrong with the templates of countries. But this time I support his proposal, to avoid "controversies" the latitudinal and longitudinal points should be mentioned instead of "north - mid latitudes" so I'm gonna add that —Preceding unsigned comment added by QneB ( talk • contribs) 18:16, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Ah and another thing why it is mentioned mex is in southern north america and not in northern middle america? it is the same, the exact location of both regions should be mentioned. —Preceding unsigned comment added by QneB ( talk • contribs) 18:22, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
You didn't answer my question about North America being remarkably more acceptable and representative than Middle America.
BWT, the first North America (upfront) refers to the continent, the second one would refer to the region, also NA & SA are two separate continent why would you have to make the reference regarding Mexico’s position counting both of them? (Americas) that’s like saying “Ukraine is in the Middle Eurasia” Supaman89 03:26, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
I want to remind you that we are not discussing the existence of the term Middle America. It does exist, and of course it has to be included in the article. The problem here is that Corticopia wants to give Middle America the same weight that North America, a real widely-use term, in the same line. That is an undue weight problem. One must not present or give minoritary or rare point of view or information the same importance than those widely accepted. The fact is that Middle America is not as used as NA. As Supaman said, there's no economical, political, militar or else institution, dialogue or organization linking the countries of this area. The sentence must be clear, and indicate that Mexico is included in that region, but that it is not commonly used. So I propose the following:
Those lines make perfectly clear that Middle America is a region, that Mexico is part of it, but that is not equally used as North America.
Alex Covarrubias ( Talk? ) 06:01, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Again, as it is been demonstrated and proved in various posts above, they can't be given the same weight, but since you (Corticopia) didn't even bother answering with proper facts, I'll repeat them here: "there are no official organizations or anything tiding up such region, as for the North American Region which has plenty of treaties reinforcing the US, Canada and Mexico’s relationships as a solid block" Supaman89 15:43, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
The mention of the treaties wasn’t meant in that way, they do not create the region, they reinforce it, that’s just another reason why NA is more representative, hence has more weight than MA.
Here’s another proposal:
Supaman89 18:30, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
I just want to add that Corticopia has been editing the article WITHOUT waiting to see if the other editors involved in this discussion agreed, and describing his edits as "per talk", which is false. So, moving on people, this are the proposals and the support they have received directly from the editors. Please add your name if you agree with any of the following:
Agreed by: Wanderer57 and Jcmenal
Agreed by: Supaman89
Agreed by: AlexCovarrubias, Wanderer57, Jcmenal and Supaman.
Agreed by: Corticopia
Again, please add your name if you support any of them. I'm happy to see that we're finally very close to end this. Alex Covarrubias ( Talk? ) 19:27, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Well this discussion has pretty much ended, all the users that were participating have voted (except Corticopia), which I'm assuming will vote for his own proposal, still AlexCovarrubias' proposal has the most votes, I'll just wait for him to edit it himself. Supaman89 01:57, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
+-+-+
As Wanderer said, we are approaching to a solution and that is very good. I also want to narrow my vote then, and I will only support my version. I don't want this to become a never ending topic. Thanks to everyone. Alex Covarrubias ( Talk? ) 03:41, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
I don't mind working towards a (grammatically correct and accurate) solution -- and we rather did beforehand, perhaps imperfectly, until recently -- but NOT one that is brokered by the boosterist, edit-warring editors who are largely responsible for this morass. A number of the proposed options are unnecessarily wordy, and sounding encyclopedic is not asking too much: after all, that is what Wikipedia is (supposed to be). To get to that point, perhaps the proposed variants are in need of the attention of other uninvolved editors ... i.e., present company excluded. I may support other renditions, but reserve judgement for now per Dunadan. Thus, we may need to post an RfC to get that: really, I think this option is something to be welcomed and may be feared by boosterist editors who may get something they do not expect. As for AC's 'comments', well, no comment. Corticopia 17:26, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
I want to kindly ask Dunadán to reconsider his position. Dúnadan, I don't want this to sound like a ad hominen attack against Corticopia, but his behaviour is less than desireable. For instance, he fully supported Wanderer57's opinion, and on the basis of ONLY their two opinions, CHANGED the consensual version. It didn't seem to bother him at all. Then, after days of debate, he realizes the upcoming solution is not going to be anything like he wanted, and he decides to call "invalid" the debate, and even critized Wanderer. He's obvioulsy trying to play with the "rules" to get what he wants. C'mon Dun, don't tell me you don't see this. Alex Covarrubias ( Talk? ) 20:25, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
I was wandering if we should change the current map for one like the follwing: What do you guys think? Supaman89 02:05, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Maybe I am missing something. I don't see how the new one is better.
Wanderer57
03:28, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
I think that the current map is better, because it is colored thus more visually appealing. Alex Covarrubias ( Talk? ) 22:32, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
I also prefer the current one for the global location.
Let me bring this issue again: Please take a look to the states map in the Spanish version of the article. As much as I appreciate the work behind the current states map in the English version, I believe that insisting in keeping it, and presenting State names incomplete, made-up abbreviations without any warning that they are not official or even known in Mexico, for the sake of "graphic appeal" is plain mediocrity. Sorry if anyone feels personally insulted, not my intention. I'm looking for correctness first, and my proposals on this topic reverted with no solid reason.
Before I put any time into editing the article to later find it scrapped, I'd like to have your OK in using this map & table: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico#Divisi.C3.B3n_pol.C3.ADtico-administrativa
Thanks
Rodulfo 19:48, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
This might be a stupid question but, is it just me or some pictures actually don't show up? when I click on them they do appear but in the article they do not, I might just be my anti-virus though, anyway that's why I'm asking, does anyone else have the same problem?. Supaman89 17:43, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
However, Mexico has come under scrutiny for the alleged inhumane manner they treat incoming illegal immigrants from El Salvador, eliciting accusations of hypocrisy and human rights abuses [44].
Can this be removed due to being a dead link...?
MiztuhX 09:10, 26 September 2007 (UTC)Miztuhx 26 Sep 07 MiztuhX 09:10, 26 September 2007 (UTC) Wow, I don't even know where that is, but if there is no reliable link, sure go ahead and remove it. Supaman89 17:44, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Why did the name Mejico become Mexico in the United States? And when did this happen? SpankTank 00:32, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
this is obviosly a huge mistake made by someone who edited the page, probably an intentional one. You just have to look at a list of countries by their GDP and see that both the UK and France have a GDP nearly three times bigger than Mexico's. I don't think that that person was talking about GDP per capita either:) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shaghion ( talk • contribs) 07:45, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
I was asked to review this article by AlexCovarrubias, and have listed multiple items that should be addressed for the article to reach Good Article status. I have looked over the entire article, focusing on the requirements of the GA criteria. Although the following list is long, by addressing the issues, the article will be signficantly improved. If any of the points seem harsh, forgive me, I'm only showing what I think will improve the article based on prior experience. The largest issue with the article is insufficient sourcing, and I have listed almost 30 statements that should have inline citations added after them. Once you have addressed these issues and looked over the rest of the criteria (which focuses on stability, image, and NPOV issues), consider nominating the article at Good article nominations. If you have any questions over something I wrote here or disagree on some points (if Mexican English follows different grammar rules then what I may have pointed out, feel free to correct me), then let me know on my talk page and I'll be happy to get back to you as soon as I can. A good way to show your progress in improving the article would be to use the strikethrough feature or put checkmarks next to the fixed items. In conclusion, I hope you do address these issues to help significantly improve the article and help it reach higher quality in educating the many readers who reference this article. Good job so far and happy editing! -- Nehrams2020 06:30, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
General fixes:
Add inline citations for:
-- Nehrams2020 06:30, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
So far, I have corrected almost all of the problems listed as general fixes. I also included an inline citation for Televisa. Alex C. ( Talk? ) 00:13, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Whoa! I added more inline citations. Just 13 more to go. Anybody wants to help me? :( Alex C. ( Talk? ) 00:56, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, I have left 3 more inline citations to go. Alex C. ( Talk? ) 21:42, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
"Maria Candelaria (1944) by Emilio Fernández, was one of the first films awarded a Palme d'Or at the Cannes Film Festival in 1946"
According to the Palme d'Or article in Wikipedia, this was first awarded in 1955. Before that was the Grand Prix du Festival International du Film.
Wanderer57 22:48, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
I think the same words should not be used in the Introduction and in the Economy section. It would be better if one was changed.
I think saying that "It is an upper middle-income country...." or "Mexico is an upper middle-income country...." is quite definite. Adding "firmly established" does not make it any more definite, just more wordy. Wanderer57 23:02, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
This is one paragraph, with two long, run-on sentences. It would be better if they were divided.
Here is the current version:
According to the World Tourism Organization Mexico has one of the largest tourism industries in the world, in 2005 it was the Seventh main destination worldwide, being by far the only country in Latin America to be in the top 25. Mexico's middle/lower class usually promotes national tourism, compared to the middle/higher class that travels worldwide especially Europe and the United States but also Asia and South America, in fact Mexico is the twenty-third tourism spender in the world, again being the highest in Latin America.
I suggest:
According to the World Tourism Organization, Mexico has one of the largest tourism industries in the world. In 2005 it was the seventh most popular destination worldwide, and the only country in Latin America in the top 25. Mexico's middle/lower class usually promotes national tourism, compared to the middle/higher class who travel worldwide, especially to Europe and the United States but also Asia and South America. Mexico is the twenty-third highest tourism spender in the world, and the highest in Latin America.
As well as dividing this into four sentences, I made a few other minor changes which I think are improvements.
I'm wondering about this bit: "Mexico's middle/lower class usually promotes national tourism".
I think this is intended to mean that Mexico's middle/lower class usually take their holidays in Mexico. But the word "promotes" makes it say that Mexico's middle/lower class is advertising national tourism. Wanderer57 23:23, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
No, I can't think of a word to substitute directly for "promotes" in that sentence.
The problem with "by far" is this. "By far" makes sense for comparing things. For example, "by far the biggest", by far the smallest", "by far the prettiest", "by far the best Italian singer in the world".
So I could say: "The grey mare is by far the fastest horse on the ranch".
"By far" doesn't work well for situations where something is either "A" or "B".
So it is awkward to say: "The grey mare is by far the only fast horse on the ranch."
I have the same problem with saying "by far the only country in Latin America to be in the top 25."
To get around these problems, see what you think of this wording:
According to the World Tourism Organization, Mexico has one of the largest tourism industries in the world. In 2005 it was the seventh most popular tourist destination worldwide, and in the Americas it is second only to the USA.
Mexico's middle/lower class tourists typically stay within Mexico, in contrast to the middle/higher class who travel worldwide, especially to Europe and the United States, and in lesser numbers to Asia and South America. Mexico is the twenty-third highest tourism spender in the world, and the highest in Latin America.
Here is a reference for "in the Americas it is second only to the United States of America." http://www.world-tourism.org/facts/eng/pdf/barometer/WTOBarom06_2_en.pdf
Any good?? Wanderer57 03:38, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
There is no problem about making comparisons. My problem with "so far" was it did not fit well in that sentence. My reason for comparing to the USA was not because someone said it was larger than the USA. I thought that saying "second only to the USA" was quite impressive. Wanderer57
According to the World Tourism Organization, Mexico has one of the largest tourism industries in the world. In 2005 it was the seventh most popular tourist destination worldwide receiving over 20 million tourists a year; it is the only country in Latin America to be within the top 25.
Mexico's middle/lower class typically have their vacations within Mexico, in contrast to the middle/higher class who travel worldwide, especially to Europe and the United States, and in lesser numbers to Asia and South America. Mexico is the twenty-third highest tourism spender in the world, and the highest in Latin America.
Those sentences seem fine to me. In 2nd sentence, it should be "year; it is", not "year, it is". - - I wonder if the terms middle/lower class and middle/higher class should have links to the articles Lower Middle Class and Upper Middle Class. - - Thanks, Wanderer57 23:13, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Ok, then we'll stick to that one, I'll add up those links you mention as well, if you see anymore grammatical mistakes just let us know. Supaman89 01:48, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
The opening of the article:
For other uses, see Mexico (disambiguation). "Mexican" and "Mexicans" redirect here. For other uses, see Mexican (disambiguation).
Either the first or last sentence should be dropped. Does it matter which one? Wanderer57 02:39, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
I think that's much better. I would just change it slightly.
"This article is about the country in North America. Mexican(s) redirects here. For other uses, see Mexico (disambiguation) or Mexican (disambiguation)." Wanderer57 04:29, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Suggested wording changes to these sentences from the introduction.
Since partaking in the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) in 1994, its economy has diversified and grown to become world's 12th largest, and has the economical power to match nations such as the Canada and Spain. Elections held in July 2000 marked the first time that an opposition party won the presidency to the Institutional Revolutionary Party (Partido Revolucionario Institucional: PRI) that held it since 1929, culminating a process of political alternation that had begun at the local level since the 1980s.
Here it is with suggested changes bolded.
Since joining the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) in 1994, its economy has diversified and grown to become the world's 12th largest. Mexico has the economic power to match nations such as Canada and Spain. Elections held in July 2000 marked the first time that an opposition party won the presidency to the Institutional Revolutionary Party (Partido Revolucionario Institucional: PRI) which had held it since 1929, culminating a process of political alternation that had begun at the local level since the 1980s.
Notes:
"partaking in" is perhaps not strictly wrong but it is a very unusual use of the word.
The first sentence was too long.
"economic" is the word needed, "economical" has a narrower meaning (efficient, not wasteful of resources).
Canada, not "the Canada".
The last sentence is not clear. I do not know the history but I think perhaps it should say: "marked the first time that an opposition party won the presidency from the Institutional Revolutionary Party "
Also, "had begun at the local level since the 1980s." suggests the process began after the 1980s. Maybe it is supposed to say: "began at the local level during the 1980s." ??
I hope this is useful. Wanderer57 19:59, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Good point. If you can find the rank in 1994, you could say "Since joining the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) in 1994, Mexico's economy has diversified and grown from XXth largest in the world to 12th largest." This would indicate it was not all due to NAFTA, but that NAFTA had a positive effect. Wanderer57 02:01, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
I notice someone put "partaking" back in the Introduction. It is not a good word in that context. If you don't believe me, ask someone you trust. Wanderer57 19:16, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
That's why Wanderer and I were discussing the new wording, but we are not in a hurry or anything, so please do not change it without consulting us first, thank you. Supaman89 00:41, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
A subsection dealing with Culture that doesn't include the literature produced by members of that culure is lacking. I see the performing/visual arts are represented. Is there any objection to adding literature to this. I admit a certain bias towards Carlos Fuentes and Juan Rulfo, and really wouldn't be able to give much shrift to feminist writers, but im sure someone else could fill in the blanks. Die4Dixie 06:13, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Most internationally recognized dishes should include chocolate. Chacolate has mostly been consumed as a beverage or in a sauce for thousands of years. Putting chocolate with other crops seems rather odd, one can’t plant chocolate, though it can be created —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
124.180.41.139 (
talk)
04:52, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
The last sentence is: "In lieu with this new openness in Mexico's foreign policy, some political parties have proposed an amendment of the Constitution in order to allow the Mexican Army, Air Force or Navy to collaborate with the United Nations in peace-keeping missions, or to provide military help to countries that officially ask for it."
I think this should be "In line with", not "In lieu with". Wanderer57 00:51, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
The Introduction section ends with: "which had held it since 1929, culminating a process of political alternation that actively had begun at the local level during the 1980s."
I have read this several times and have a vague feeling that there was something wrong in it. I think political alternation is not a "process". I suggest the word "pattern" instead. Wanderer57 22:52, 13 October 2007 (UTC) (I am not making a change to the article as I don't know anything about Mexican politics. My comment is based only on my understanding of the meaning of the words.)
Sorry to take so long on this. I'm still thinking this over because the wording is very tricky. I'm handicapped by not knowing the history.
If saying "process of democratization" or "process of electoral reform" is reasonably accurate, that is much better than saying "process of alternation" because it is more specific.
This is what I do not know: during the time period mentioned, did Mexico move from a "one party system" to a multi-party system? OR was it a matter of going from a multi-party system with one HUGE party and a bunch of small ones, to a multi-party system where more than one party had a chance to win an election??? Wanderer57 06:56, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
0
In term of per capita income and other statistics, Mexico is far from a deveoped country, not to mention a fully developed country. It is listed in Developing country as a newnly industrialized country. Google search result can show numerous sources refering Mexico as a developing country. Coasilve 03:16, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Mexico's per capita income is world average. It is not a developed country. I find it ridiculous there are still someone arguing with me. Coasilve 03:50, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Well in that sense, two references currently used in the article don't justify Mexico as a developed country too. What's important is that Mexico only has a world average percapita income. That makes it not a developed country. Coasilve 04:26, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
It is at the begining of the third paragraph. "As a regional power and a full-fledged developed country [6][7] and the only Latin American member of the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) since 1994." Coasilve 18:37, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Well, I made a few mistakes with so, but I want to say something. though Mexico is third worldish in the south, in the north it is as large and complete as the USA.
Its not fully developed, however, its northern part have cities that are even larger than American cities, it cannot stand to their economy, but it can to its full growth. I think its better to use "partly developed country. You haven't searched as well for Spanish result searching developed. In this link, you will find an opposing idea to the developing country thing: http://club.telepolis.com/geografo/regional/america/ibmexico.htm . Not even countries such as the US, which have the largest economy have getting rid of poverty. If speaking in poverty terms, Mexico does not count, but in that case, Costa Rica would be first world since the UK has only 1% less poverty than CR.
We need to reach an agreement in which we state if we are taking Economy, development or life quality. Newstormer 21:54, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Poverty comparative: Economy of the United Kingdom Industry comparative: Economy of Italy Gross domestic product comparative: Economy of Greece
with all these, plus the cities, the number of companies and billionaires, the fast growth, the large manufacturing and the huge urban area, it looks like Mexico overpowers even France.
Though it is a NIC, its full growth is stronger than other European countries, and since all the European countries are developed countries. Mexico is at least partly developed, but its totally sure that Mexico is first world and no third world. Newstormer 21:37, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
However, all European countries are developed and they are a few which aren't as developed as Mexico, I doubt that data from the CIA and the IMF is recent, Mexico is in the less a half developed country. It may be a fourth world country, not industrialized but with high standards of living. If Italy is developed, why Mexico isn't... I suggest you to instead make comparatives to European countries, since they are all developed, if Mexico is stronger than them, it means Mexico is developed. NIC doesn't reveal the development, but the industrialization levels. Newstormer 17:24, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I understand that you're trying to put that Mexico is a full-fledged developed country, and I mean, that's fine sometimes I feel so as well, in fact I'm probably one of the most patriotic persons there is, but we gotta be honest, even though northern Mexico is definitely developed, the southern part of the country, is still developing, and I mean I don't want people thinking we are telling lies or something like that, because then they'll think that the rest of the article is "biased" as well. I understand that Hollywood has given us a lot of bad reputation, and we all want to clean all those stereotypes but as long as there is people living in “third worldish” conditions in the southern states we cannot say that we are fully developed, cuz that could lead to more negative consequences that positive ones. Supaman89 03:05, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
I know, and I never said otherwise, that's why wrote him that message. Supaman89 16:29, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
I recently updated the area of the country but it was reversed to its previous value quoting "more sources". I believe that the important thing is not the amount of sources but their accuracy. If the National Geography and Statistics Institute and the Presidential Office website state that the area is X sq. Km, shouldn't we taking this values instead? I mean they are Official sources anyway, aren't they? EOZyo ( мѕğ) 00:39, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
i disagree with one of the assertations in the paragraph about the evolution of the word "mexico". i read the link that the source cited, the real academia, and it never says that the sound was voiced.
also i am well versed in romance linguistics and i have never read anything that posits a voicing of spanish sibilants in their evolution. i've been out of the game for a while so the only source that comes to mind is Ralph Penny (1991) "A History of the Spanish Language"
this is a tiny detail that may not interest anyone but i read the article and this discrepancy stuck out to me.
zach
66.235.34.185 19:11, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
I think that this link should be added to the external links section. It will provide this article will personal opinions and stories specifically relating to the subject. This will add a more personnel outlet if the viewer feels inclined to follow the link.
Here is the link:
Can anybody tell me what Mexico's national bird is? I'd like to add a photo of the appropriate species to the lead paragraph of List of birds of Mexico. Also, is there any reference available that talks about the eagle on the Mexican coat of arms? It would be nice to know if that was modeled after a real species (and thus something I can add to an appropriate picture caption), or if it's just a generic eagle! Thanks for any help you can offer. MeegsC | Talk 18:44, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
From the topographic map, it looks as if Distrito Federale is close to the highest elevation in all of Mexico. Is this true?
If it is, why do people say DF is in "the Valley of Mexico"?
Thanks,
( Wanderer57 04:22, 3 November 2007 (UTC))
I did a few edits in Toponymy & Pre-Columbian civilizations. I think they are straightforward. I'll be glad to explain if asked. I got rid of a few excess words.
I notice in the section "Pre-Columbian civilizations", only the first sentence is about Pre-Columbian civilizations.
Wanderer57 14:42, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
The new part added by Dropmeoff is great because it gets rid of the impression that the history of southern North America began when the Spanish arrived. Wanderer57 02:52, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
I think it's unnecessary and repetitive, but that's just my opinion. Supaman89 20:25, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
I've noticed that there seems to be a preoccupation with only the last 500 years (and especially the last 150 years) of Mexico's history on this page. The post-Conquest section is enormous, while the Pre-Columbian section seems to be deliberately whittled down to being almost insignificant. I have added Pre-Columbian material but it always seems to be deleted. Would you write a history of Israel section like that? Would you say that Israel's history should focus only on the Post-Hitler era? The vast bulk of Mexico's history occurred before Europeans arrived. That is not opinion. That is a fact that seems to be deliberately omitted here. If you're going to have 3 paragraphs on the Mexican Revolution here, then you should have at least that much for the thousands of years of history before the Conquest. The many Pre-European civilizations deserve more than a couple of lines. Dropmeoff 16:51, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
I am pasting in, for reference, the paragraphs by Dropmeoff that started this discussion.
- - -
Human presence in Mexico has been shown to date back 40,000 years based upon ancient human footprints discovered in the Valley of Mexico [1] (previous evidence substantiated indigenous inhabitants at 12,500 years ago). For thousands of years, Mexico was a land of hunter-gatherers. Around 9,000 years ago, ancient Mexicans domesticated corn and initiated an agricultural revolution, leading to the formation of many complex civilizations. These civilizations revolved around cities with writing, monumental architecture, astronomical studies, mathematics, and militaries. After 4,000 years, these civilizations were destroyed with the arrival of the Spaniards in 1519. For three centuries, Mexico was colonized by Spain, during which time the majority of its indigenous population died off. Formal independence from Spain was recognized in 1821. France then invaded Mexico in 1864 and ruled briefly until 1867, when the Mexican army captured and executed the monarch Maximilian of Habsburg. A war with the United States ended with Mexico losing almost half of its territory in 1848 and the Mexican Revolution would later result in the death of 10% of the nation's population. Since then, Mexico as a nation-state has struggled with reconciling its deeply-entrenched indigenous heritage with the demands of the modern Western cultural model imposed in 1519. The nation's name is derived from the Mexica civilization (known in popular culture as the Aztecs).
- - - end of pasted in part.
Was the main objection to the pre-Columbian part having it in a summary at the beginning of the History?? I'm going to put the first part of the above into the article for editors to see how it fits. I'll then revert it. Wanderer57 00:11, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Mexico&oldid=169990085
See recent edits to the Ethnogrophy section, under Mestizo it currently reads: "it is merely a self description instead of a physical one, a mestizo might be european or native looking as long as he/she has some background from a different race."
In my opinion the definition of Mestizo in this section: (those of European and Amerindian ancestry) is sufficient; by definition someone who has mixed ancestry could look more like one than the other. If someone needs a further definition of Mestizo they can click on the link. The paragraph as it stands now is redundant and doesn't make a lot of sense in English. In the interest of avoiding an edit war I am posting this to the talk page to sollicit other opinions. Following is my proposal for how the paragraph should read:
Mestizos (those of mixed European and Amerindian ancestry) form the largest group, comprising up to 60%–75% of the total population. Vrac 01:46, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
The word mestizo is a racial description, see:
http://www.bartleby.com/61/26/M0242600.html. It is not a matter of opinion, it is simply what the word means in English. Secondly your edits assert that mestizo is self-ascribed, which it is not, since the figures come from the CIA. In order to assert that mestizo is self-ascribed, you would have to be able to cite a survey of Mexicans in which they describe themselves as such. Perhaps such a survey exists but I am not aware of one; "ask any Mexican" unfortunately is not a citeable source. Thirdly, since mestizo means a mixture of races (and the paragraph further defines mestizo as people of mixed European and Amerindian ancestry), by definition someone who is mestizo could have any possible ratio of characteristics from any of the races involved. Saying that their physical appearance could more closely ressemble one race rather than the other is redundant.
Vrac
23:00, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Whether or not mestizo is a racially charged or politically inappropriate term strikes me as a separate issue from what is being discussed here (we were discussing whether or not the term mestizo is "self-ascribed", or needs a further clarification by stating a mestizo person could look more European, or more Amerindian, etc...). Do you have a proposal for removing it or replacing it with something else? Perhaps a different thread for that issue would be appropriate. Vrac 00:24, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
When I say racial description, I mean that mestizo is a term that describes what race I belong to. It answers the question: What race are you? Answer: I am mestizo. Ergo mestizo is a description of my race. This meaning of mestizo is in the dictionary, I don't see how anyone can dispute that it is a description of race. If by racial description you mean physical description, i.e. what someone looks like, no generic racial terms can capture the variety of appearances. Are you saying that all black people look the same? Black people from Senegal are not physically identical to black people in Senegal, I could post pictures of African-Americans of mixed race that demonstrate just as much variety as the pictures of Mexicans. Having a "universal image" of what black people look like strikes me as being prejudicial. When saying that the US is X percent African-American, I haven't seen it qualified as: "and some of them look more like Europeans than Africans". As for self-ascription, unless you can cite some data isn't it just your opinion? See NPOV. Can you find some documentation about what kids are tought in Mexican schools about mestizo? I haven't looked at the wiki article on Mestizo, but it seems to me that it is the place where this kind of information/clarification/discussion belongs. Vrac 01:58, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Seeing the amount of discussion, it seems that the word has multiple meanings and certainly multiple connotations. Wanderer57 18:45, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
To everybody in this discussion: I am sorry if I wasn't clear. I didn't express any opinion about whether mestizo is a racist term. I made my comment because, while reading the discussion, I wondered if some of the disagreements were due to different uses of terminology.
To Dropmeoff: I would never say the N-word is not a racist term. It is of course. However, for example, the words "oriental" and "caucasian" are "about race", but are not racist (in my experience). There may be places in the world and ways of using these words in which they are racist. The context is so important. (Probably any "non-racist word about race" can be used in a racist way by simply putting the word "F__king" in front of it.)
There is a word fairly commonly used in Canada to mean people with some ancestors who were native North Americans and some ancestors who came from Europe. The word is Metis. To quote an Oxford dictionary:
Metis -> noun (in Canada) a person of mixed race, especially the offspring of a white person and an American Indian. The Merriam Webster dictionary definition is "one of mixed blood, especially the offspring of an American Indian and a person of European ancestry.
Both dictionaries link Metis to Mestizo. One says "more at Mestizo", the other says "see also Mestizo". Both "metis" and "mestizo" come from a Latin word that means "mixed.
The Oxford defines mestizo as "a person of mixed blood; specifically a person of mixed European and American Indian ancestry." The Merriam Webster is more specific and defines mestizo as "(in Latin America) a man of mixed race, especially the offspring of a Spaniard and an American Indian." (mestiza if the person is female.)
I can hear people saying SO, WHAT'S YOUR POINT?. It is this:
In Canada, through much of Canadian history, the word "Metis" has been used as a derogatory term. ALSO in Canada, people of Metis background are extremely proud of their heritage, culture, and accomplishments. And rightly so.
In some cases, Metis is used in a negative and racist way. In other cases, it is used with great pride.
My belief, based on reading the earlier discussion, is that the word "mestizo" is also used in both ways. Wanderer57 23:50, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
I adhere to Supaman's point of view. The term "Mestizo" is rarely used in a derogatory way, or as a racist term. It is the common term used in Mexican textbooks to refer to people of european and amerindian ancestry, and the term used to denominate the majority of the people living in Mexico, also in the same textbooks. This term is nevertheless mostly associated with individuals that lived in the Colonial and Independence times. It is rarely used to describe a current figure. You wouldn't see a textbook referring to current President Calderon as Mestizo. Hugo cantu ( talk) 00:04, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
someone should at least mention the horrible police/legal system in mexico. The police steal your money if you are american, the police will hold you until you pay them cash (out of your own pocket). the police hate americans. can someone please include this in the artice. this is a problem that needs to be mentioning. thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.42.211.4 ( talk) 22:51, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Wow we most be the worst country on earth. (~.~) Supaman89 01:00, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
We will include it when you edit the article on the USA and mention the hatred for Mexicans by the police... 189.153.81.205 04:00, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't there be a section on the national holidays of Mexico? Maybe just a list or links to pages about the holidays (Cinco de Mayo, Dia Del Nino, Navidad, etc.). nd2010 16:45, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Can someone link the wikipedia article Mexican pop under Pop for this article to have a more throughow representation of popular music in Mexico. In additin feel free to edit this article for a more respectable and informative outlook on the genre in Mexico. 75.62.146.6 ( talk) 08:31, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
The 2004 HDI report on Mexico (ref 58) is not available at the link provided. It also comes up on a google search under the same, missing link so mustve been taken down. Anyone know where it might be? (I also wanted to cite the HDI comparison between northern states and the EU & Southern states and Africa to demonstrate income disparity ina paper!) 172.200.6.43 ( talk) 15:28, 18 November 2007 (UTC) HDI for mexico is .829 now. Ranked 52 for 2007. The HDI on the page is too old ( 2004 ) 67.107.23.194 ( talk) 18:09, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
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