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I find changing the conclusion of the source to be that all Jewish denominations view MJ as Christianity, skews the intent of the paragraph concerning the MJ position on their Jewish status. Changing the conclusion that MJ is not seen as Jewish by other Jewish denominations, to a DIFFERENT conclusion that MJ is seen by other Jewish denomns as "Christian" seem to me to be POV pushing in the form that the reader is led to believe as "fact" that "if one groups considers MJ to be Christian, then OF COURSE it's certainly not Jewish." Instead the intent of the paragraph is communicated just fine in that the Jewish status of MJ is disputed by all Jewish denomns (the removal of "other" Jewish denoms being the compromise). Now someone wants to take it a step further beyond this concession and now wants to post that all Jewish denoms consider MJ to be Christianity... skewing the original intent of the paragraph, forcing an unwritten conclusion (that if one is Christian that one is not Jewish), and almost smacks of being a disclaimer. To keep balance, I highly suggest not changing this intro without consensus, or else put that information in the appropriate Jewish objections section of the article. inigmatus ( talk) 18:07, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
I've reviewed the history, and I see no support for "many" in the place I made a fact tag. It looks like there was indeed a lot of work back and forth here, there are a lot of citations. One almost implies the "many", and another uses "many" in a different way than is meant in the sentence. My recommendation is to either find an explicit citation of a denomination that officially states Messianic Judaism is NOT Christian, or take out the word "many." I'd be satisfied to stop being a nudge if you two do one of those two things. I don't care which. SkyWriter (Tim) ( talk) 21:13, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
Again, I have no objection to "many" being in there as long as the exception is cited. That's extremely fair. SkyWriter (Tim) ( talk) 21:41, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
Christians do not agree with Jews here. They state a similar conclusion, yes, but they do not do this for the sake of Jews, and they do not care whether they agree or not. As such your cynical edit violates SYNTH. Please remove the cyncism and find a simple exception. Hint: you MAY find something from Reformed (i.e. Calvinistic) groups who object to "Judaizing." I've not seen such a source, but you could possibly find one. I'll even try to look with you. Surely you agree that finding such a source would add some color while supporting the word "Many" in the sentence. This is my final attempt to compromise with you -- and even to HELP you. Please accept it. SkyWriter (Tim) ( talk) 22:05, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
Recommend the following intro -- it's more clear and specific:
Messianic Judaism is a Christian movement that emphasizes the Jewish roots of the Christian religion. Accordingly they continue many Jewish religious and cultural practices, use Jewish names and expressions, and call Jesus by the more Hebraic form of the name -- Yeshua. [1] [2]
The movement is accepted by Christian denominations, and often holds services in Christian churches on Friday nights or Saturday mornings. Larger Messianic congregations build their own synagogues.
Although many members of the movement are halakhically Jewish, the various streams of Judaism are unanimous in their rejection of MJ as a form of Judaism. [3] [4] [5] [6]
As of 1993 there were 160,000 adherents of Messianic Judaism in the United States and 350,000 worldwide. As of 2003, there were at least 150 Messianic synagogues in the U.S. and over 400 worldwide. [7] By 2008, the number of Messianics in the United States was around a quarter million. [8] The number of Messianic Jews in Israel is reported to be anywhere between 6,000 and 15,000 members. [9] [10]
What was wrong or lacking in the previous intro that warrants the necessity for a new one? This new wording almost smacks of a POV disclaimer. Simply posting a source's defintion for MJ that favors one viewpoint that it is Christian funded is totally ignorant of the fact that much of the MJ I am familiar with is serious NOT funded by any Christian organizations. In fact, J4J may be Christian funded, but certain not all of Messianic Judaism which could only be the acceptable criteria for inclusion of such a ridiculous statement, no matter how sourced.
inigmatus (
talk)
19:43, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
I notice that up in the "Sources" section, there's a lot of argument going on about whether MJ is considered a form of Christianity by Christians or not. I think the problem is really one of terminology. Some people read "Christianity" as synonymous with "Christianity and not Judaism". Others read "Christianity" as being consistent with "both Christianity and Judaism".
So what are we saying when we say that "Christians view MJ as a form of Christianity"? Those who see Christianity and Judaism as mutually exclusive will read that as "Christians view MJ as a form of Christianity, and not a form of Judaism". Those who do not can read it as "Christians view MJ as a form of Christianity" without excluding the possibility that they also view it as a form of Judaism.
Obviously, I think they're mutually exclusive. But my view isn't the point here (unfortunately). Still, I think it's incontroverably true that Christians (all of them) would view MJ as a form of Christianity, at least to the extent that they'd view any denomination they don't happen to belong to as being a form of Christianity. Thus Tim's edit is correct. But Ignatius seems to be assuming, ironically enough, the Jewish view as dominant, and is therefore objecting to the statement on the grounds that it implies MJ to be not-Judaism.
I think it's fair to say that:
If there are no objections to this, the question would then be how to phrase this in a clearly understandable way. If there are objections... well, I guess I'll see them Thursday night. Chag Sameach to those who are Jewish and non-MJ. - LisaLiel ( talk) 20:29, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm not married to the version that's there -- but it's more specific than the one J is trying to put in. MJs do not just think they are Jewish, but many of them actually are (even though their religion is Christian). Also, it is not just many Christians who accept them, but there aren't any that reject them on doctrinal grounds (although some "Compound Unity" MJs SHOULD be rejected by Christians as a heresy). Also, they aren't just funded by Christians, but actually worship in their churches unless they are large enough to fund their own building. SkyWriter (Tim) ( talk) 18:42, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
Also -- on consensus -- J just reverted a consensus version. At least today, two editors created the version that one editor reverted. The consensus -- at least at present -- is in favor of mine and Lisa's SkyWriter (Tim) ( talk) 18:44, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
The movement is accepted by Christian denominations, and often holds services in Christian churches on Friday nights or Saturday mornings. Larger Messianic congregations build their own synagogues.
I'll repeat my offer -- I'll source anything that you'll accept if sourced. I won't bother if there is something other than sourcing as a priority here. If the weasle wording is required by some previous consensus in which one side was demanding the weasle wording, then I won't waste your time, or mine, improving the article. So, please tell me what part of my intro you will not accept if it is sourced, and I'll forget about it. However, if you don't, then per Wikipedia standards I'll provide the sources and remove the current weasel wording. It's a fair offer. Just tell me what is prohibited regardless of how well it is sourced, and I'll forget about it. SkyWriter (Tim) ( talk) 20:39, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
I repeat my request -- please state which aspects are immune to Wikipedia standards and sourcing because of political arangements from previous editors. It's a fair request. I will not push Wikipedia standards on the aspects of my intro that you explicitly state are immune. SkyWriter (Tim) ( talk) 20:55, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
Jayjg - First, it's impossible to absolutely disprove a negative. If anything the onus of proof is on one to prove that "Christian funded" is an accurate statement applicable to the general (and for purpose of consensus I would demanding it be applicable to even the orthodox Torah-observant since in my view those are the only Messianic Jews that can rightfully claim the label). Second, I would like to know what exactly is funded - the missionary activities (like what), the buildings, the Torah scrolls, the Artscroll siddurim, the salaries of rabbis who denounce the Church's way of life and its pagan practices? My "tons" of sources are the clear statements that churches will not financially support the "judaizing" of Christianity:
Christians Should Not Give To Those Teaching The Doctrine Of The Judaizers.
But Gal. 6:6-17, read in context with other verses in the Galatian epistle, suggest that Paul was teaching something else as well. As we will see, these verses, read in context, provide evidence that Paul was teaching that Christians should not give to anyone who was teaching the doctrine of the Judaizers, a doctrine which included the teaching that Christians were under obligation to the law of Moses. Three facts provide evidence of this.
from: http://christianitywithoutcompromise.com/essays/webessay3_galatians_.pdf on page 5.
or
"You cannot give money to help build Satan's kingdom," I explained, "and in doing so, please our Lord God. If the Zionist Jews are doggedly determined to mock and disrespect the truth, why should you, a Christian, help make that come to fruition?"
from: http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Wolves/scofield.htm
and many others. inigmatus ( talk) 20:45, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
Inigmatus, YOu quoted Galatians out of context. Yes, what you said Paul wrote, was actually written. HOWEVER, the Judaizers are not equivalent to Messianic Jews. Messianic Jews consider themselves "completed Jews", as in the Hamaschia (sp) has come, and he was Yeshua (JESUS). The Judaizers, on the other hand, were preying on the new and struggling church in Galtia, telling the new Christians that they had to be Jews first. YOur quote it not in context. Thanks! KoshVorlon > rm -r WP:F.U.R 16:37, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
Based on various sources, the religion of 1st century followers of Yeshua is clearly a sect of Judaism, and that Christianity was a gentile-controlled sect of this sect that rose to prominence and power with the rise of the Holy Roman Empire. inigmatus ( talk) 18:51, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
Since you have resumed the previous edit war with three forces today, I've reported the violation. It is impossible to reconstruct the consensus around your disruptive edits. SkyWriter (Tim) ( talk) 19:47, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
The "previous" edits you refer to were to removing unsourced material. Since when does that qualify for a 3RR? But I digress. If you are truly interested in building consensus on the matter of my ADDITIONS (not reverts), then please answer this question for me: how is modern Messianic Judaism different than the "early Christians" which Arstscroll says is a heretical "sect of Judaism"? Furthermore, answer in such a way so as not to disqualify the term "sect of Judaism" for the Sadducees, and the Essenes which are also mentioned in the exact same list. inigmatus ( talk) 19:58, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
Proto-Christianity is not modern Messianism. To make that connection on your own, inigmatus, is a violation of WP:OR and/or WP:SYNTH. I have removed the inaccurate and mistaken extrapolation of the Artscroll commentary. -- Avi ( talk) 20:05, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
See Maoz (currently note 22), Sedaca (currently note 23), Winer (currently note 24), Kehilat Sar Shalom (currently note 25) etc. -- Avi ( talk) 20:16, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
Answering inigmatus above, the line in the article based on Maoz: "The Messianic Judaism movement of today grew out of the Hebrew-Christian movement of the 19th century." -- Avi ( talk) 22:51, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
Also, see Messianic Movement where it is dated back to the 1880s. That the modern-day Messianics attempt to emulate proto-Christians is not the issue; the issue is that their activities are a modern-day phenomenon, and are unquestionably NOT the group referenced by Shmuel HaKatan when he wrote V'Lamalshinim. As Lisa pointed out, Wicca also patterns itself after ancient paganism, but no one will say that Wiccans ARE the ancient pagans. -- Avi ( talk) 22:54, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
Specious argument, Inigmatus. No one denies that modern-day Judaism is the direct continuation of the Rabbinic Judaism of the Second Temple Era. Well, Orthodox Judaism is at least, and if I recall correctly, the remaining branches separated voluntarily from the traditional for well-documented reasons, and still hold themselves to be descendants of the Jewish Tradition. Prior to the Second Temple Era, we are all dealing with oral tradition, with the exception of Nevi'im and K'suvim, of course, and I believe no one claims that Rabbinic Judaism is anything but the primary branch of First Temple, and thus Exodus Judaism. The Essenes, Sadducees, Baitusim, Samaritans, etc. were all branches of Judaism that differed from the main branch (primarily about the primacy of the Oral Law vis-a-vis the Written Law).
Contrast that with Messianism, which for centuries, if not millenia, of recorded history was non-existant and only appeared in the past one to two hundred years. From the time of Peter until the late 19th century, if you believed in Jesus, you were a Christian. -- Avi ( talk) 23:28, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
There was serious work done to represent all sides' understanding of the relationship between Messianism, Judaism, and Christianity. There was at least one mistaken extrapolation/original research in the article now calling it an accepted sect of Judaism; there may be other inaccuracies in the article. It needs to be re-vetted before being relisted, I believe. -- Avi ( talk) 20:13, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
(<-) I think leaving out both "Jewish" and "Christian" and just saying "is a sect…" was the consensus opinion. -- Avi ( talk) 22:50, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
from Lisa:
- Let's not forget Kwisatz Haderach. But no, it's not a common term. It's completely unknown except for a few places within the movement itself. This is like putting "Dat Moshe v'Yisrael" in to the lead of the article on Judaism as an alternative name.
- Off the derech is a common Jewish term for someone who has left Orthodox Judaism. Derech Hashem is an important and widely studied book by Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzzatto. There's no way MJ is going to co-opt that term like this. - LisaLiel ( talk) 23:01, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
(<-)Lisa, I think you are right that the term was "movement" and not "sect". How about "is a religious movement"? -- Avi ( talk) 23:31, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
This is way too much overhead. Messianism is a Christian movement that worships in Jewish overlays. Mainstream Christianity recognizes it as it's own, and even funds it and hosts it in their church buildings. Mainstream Judaism does not recognize it. This isn't a complicated issue. I don't know why inigmatus is trying to make it into one. SkyWriter (Tim) ( talk) 00:26, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
There are many items known as "Haderech". To name a few:
The fact that a some branches of Messianism call themselves HaDerech does not seem to me to be leadworthy, and may be an WP:UNDUE violation. Many of the citations brought in the article itself say nothing about "HaDerech" such as http://rabbiyeshua.com/. I am also uncertain if Harris-Shapiro ever mentions the term, although I do not have access to the book right now. -- Avi ( talk) 22:48, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
Why modify a GA Consensus-built intro, BEFORE bringing such a change here to the talk page, for an article that is hotly contested as this? Please explain. And please explain why a wiki admin would do this too, knowing full well the history of this article? What was lacking for months on end when the intro stood just fine without dispute? I do not support the current intro as modified, as it is patently false in its generalistic application to anyone claiming to be a Messianic Jew. My shul is certainly not supported by Christians, nor are those of many many others. If you're going to add a "Christian" disclaimer (sourced of course) to the intro, then please modify the phrase "various groups of Judaism to say " all other groups of Judaism..." and Ill happily provide that "source" too. If you want compromise, that's what's been agreed to for months. We remove "all other" you remove "Christian" since both are technically accurate with sources, and both are technically wrong with sources. Please keep the intro as-is. If it's not broke, don't fix it. And Chag Sameach to all. inigmatus ( talk) 20:54, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
The citations brought in the Scriptural commentary section nearly all agree that the rabbinic commentaries may not be followed where they differ with the messianic scriptures, which they do on various issues including the relevance, let alone the divinity, of Jesus, circumcsision, Shabbos, and things of that nature. It incorrect to characterize them as anything other than sources stating that the Talmud et. al. may have historical significance in messianism, but is not normative. -- Avi ( talk) 07:43, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
Even the council source was not represented properly. The operative sentence being "Accepted halakha follows the centrality of the written Torah as the final arbiter and standard for behavior and right living." Which goes against the entire nature and purpose of the Talmud. This was the main battle between the Pharisees and just about everyone else (Sadducees, Essnes, Karaites, Samaritans, etc.) which was how the Oral Law affected the Written Law. -- Avi ( talk) 07:49, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
I removed the following two sentences from the lead:
Although Messianic Jews consider themselves to be Jewish,[7] the various streams of Judaism are unanimous in their rejection of Messianism as a form of Judaism.[8][9] Christians and Jews consider Messianic Judaism to be a form of Christianity.[10]
In my opinion, these two sentences are the cause of all the edit warring that has been taking place in this article. The reason I removed the material is that the lead is supposed to give a summary of the important aspects of the subject. I do not see anything in the article to suggest that what non-messianic jews think of messianic judaism is an important enough topic to be included in the lead. I do not even see any evidence to suggest that what non-messianic jews think of messianic judaism is notable enough to be included in the article at all.
Because A Sniper reverted my edit without explanation, I am going to re-do it. I'd like to request that the material remain out of the lead while a discussion ensues over its appropriateness here on the talk pages. If an editor is so invested in seeing this stuff in the lead that they choose to undo my edit, then I ask that they at least please explain why they feel the material is so crucial, and addresses the notability of the material to the article, as well as its notability to the lead. Thanks. Mmyotis (^^o^^) 16:04, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
None of you has provided evidence to support your claim that the material questioning the legitimacy of the beliefs of Messianic Jews belongs in the lead. The comparisson to an article on social capitalism is a non-sequitor. Messianic Judaism is a religion, not a political movement. A proper comparisson would be to other articles on religion. There are many of them out there, and not one of them includes questions of the legitimacy of the faithful's beliefs from the perspective of outsiders anywhere in the article at all, let alone in the lead. The reason for this should be obvious. Such a discussion is not relevant to the subject of the article and, where editors try to insert it, the motivation is invariably rooted in POV pushing. Mmyotis (^^o^^) 12:34, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
Found this: on JPost.com "Messianic Jews believe that Yeshua (Jesus) is their Messiah, but still consider themselves to be Jewish. Jews of other denominations do not consider Messianic Judaism to be a form of Judaism, but a form of Christianity." [2]
Seems to me that if one is looking for a Jewish source that says "Jews of other denominations" this is certainly one. As I said, support for wording the lead one way or the other depending on one's POV can be found. This is why we have all compromised on the current lead as-is and it has remained stable for months. Please don't change it from "Although many Messianic Jews are ethnically Jewish,[7] the various streams of Judaism are unanimous in their rejection of Messianism as a form of Judaism.[8][9] Christians and Jews consider Messianic Judaism to be a form of Christianity.[10]", or please remove it entirely. As long as this remains, and "Messianic Judaism is a religious movement whose adherents..." then I'm happy, and I hope all of us are happy with the compromise. inigmatus ( talk) 16:20, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
This edit warring is getting tedious. I'm heading out for a while before I get dragged into it. SkyWriter (Tim) ( talk) 16:49, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
May this Post Be Proof Of My Intent to Reach Out and Dialogue Before Making Changes So That No Administrator Will See That I Am the One Attempting to Honestly Work On the Article, Discuss Its Changes First, And Make Sourced Corrections That Are Being Reverted By You Without Cause, Discussion, Or Dispute:
SkyWriter, just because I make a correction to a source, you assume it's an edit war and revert the changes without reading the changes, nor responding to Talk the reasons the changes were made. You are not showing good faith, and are assuming an edit war when there is none. Why do you keep deleting the correction to the Shapiro source? According to [3], the source clearly says:
"Messianic Judaism is a largely American Jewish/Christian movement whose origins can be traced in the United States to Hebrew Christian missions to the Jews in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, the Jesus people of the late 1960s and early 1970s, and the resurgence of American Jewish ethnicity during the same decades. Messianic Jewish congregations are composed of both those born Jewish who accept Jesus as their savior and their Gentile supports who adopt a "Jewish lifestyle.""
Tell me, for sake of clarity, and source accuracy, where do you find this exact quote:
"Messianic Judaism is a Jewish/Christian movement whose origins can be traced in the United States to Hebrew Christian missions to the Jews in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, the Jesus people of the late 1960s and early 1970s, and the resurgence of American Jewish ethnicity during those same decades. Messianic Jewish congregations comprise those born Jewish who accept Jesus as their Savior, as well as Gentiles who convert to Messianic Judaism. Worldwide the Messianic Jewish Movement can be traced to the London Society for the Promotion of Christianity among the Jews (now The Church's Ministry Among Jewish People), which was founded in 1809 and is the world's oldest extant Jewish Mission. In the United Kingdom there are a number of Messianic Congregations. They fall into 2 "camps". One, the British Messianic Jewish Alliance, is the world's oldest such Alliance, founded 1866. The other is the Union of British Messianic Jewish Congergations.""
Where is that quote found ANYWHERE in the source? Please give me page number as I am not finding it at all, and your modifications to a verified accurate source to one that is made up is nothing short of vandalism. For the record I have posted on your user page very clearly this intent to dialogue with you, and now you won't even answer the charge. [4] - classical avoidance that can only lead me to suspect that you intend to vandalize this document and not deal with the objection. I'm getting a WP:3O on this before correcting the source (and thus the intro) yet again. That way you can't say it's a revert or editing war. inigmatus ( talk) 16:53, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
(<-) Arthur Rubin has a few points, both regarding sources and regarding Messianisms relationship to Christianity and Judaism. Although, I would say that notwithstanding the term "heresy" perhaps being the most accurate, its negative connotation may not be the most encyclopedic, especially for the lead. Inside the article, perhaps is the proper place to describe Messianisms heresy (wiki definition: "Heresy is an introduced change to some system of belief, especially a religion, that conflicts with the previously established canon of that belief.") -- Avi ( talk) 20:19, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
(undent) arrived here via 3O, and if I may I'd like to make an alternate suggestion. why not be right upfront and say that they are a movement that tries to unify the Christian and Jewish faiths, rather than trying to pin it into one or the other? something like (copying the current lead, but omitting the references for readability):
Messianic Judaism is a faith that merges Christian and Jewish religious traditions. The central belief of the faith is that Yeshua - a hebrew or aramaic name for Jesus of Nazareth - is both the resurrected Jewish Messiah and the Divine Savior. Its canon draws from Christain and Jewish sources, including the Old and New Testaments and the Torah. Adherents of the faith are primarily ethnic or cultural Jews, but Messianic Judaism is generally considered to be a form of Christianity, from its recognition of Yeshua as divine. As of 1993 there were 160,000 adherents of Messianic Judaism in the United States and 350,000 worldwide. As of 2003, there were at least 150 Messianic synagogues in the U.S. and over 400 worldwide. By 2008, the number of Messianics in the United States was around a quarter million. The number of Messianic Jews in Israel is reported to be anywhere between 6,000 and 15,000 members.
-- Ludwigs2 02:06, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
"Messianic Judaism" is a Christian funded and organized movement whose origins can be traced to the United States through Christian missions to the Jews in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, the Jesus people of the late 1960s and early 1970s, and the resurgence of American Jewish ethnicity during those same decades. "Messianic Jewish" congregations (churches) are comprised of those who may have been born Jewish, however, have become an apostate to Judaism by accepting Jesus as their savior. These churches however, are mostly run and comprised of Christians who have already accepted the belief of Jesus as their messiah. Worldwide the Messianic Jewish Movement can be traced to the London Society for the Promotion of Christianity among the Jews (now The Church's Ministry Among Jewish People), which was founded in 1809 and is the world's oldest extant Jewish Mission. In the United Kingdom there are a number of Messianic Congregations. They fall into 2 "camps". One, the British Messianic Jewish Alliance, is the world's oldest such Alliance, founded 1866. The other is the Union of British Messianic Jewish Congergations.
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Messianic Judaism of the first century busied itself with telling everyone of the Good News, it boldly proclaimed Yeshua – the resurrected Messiah – to all men and women.…Sin is lawlessness, it is "Torahlessness". If one is truly in Messiah, then one will be Torah observant.
We recognize the desire of people from the nations to convert into Messianic Judaism, also known as HaDerech (The Way), a sect of Judaism. By converting to the Jewish faith, converts are therefore...considered fully Jewish...[and] are not to be reminded of their gentile (pagan) past by others
For most American Jews, it is acceptable to blend some degree of foreign spiritual elements with Judaism. The one exception is Christianity, which is perceived to be incompatible with any form of Jewishness....Messianic Jewish groups are thus seen as antithetical to Judaism and are completely rejected by the majority of Jews.
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Missionary Impossible, an imaginative video and curriculum guide for teachers, educators, and rabbis to teach Jewish youth how to recognize and respond to "Jews-for-Jesus," "Messianic Jews," and other Christian proselytizers, has been produced by six rabbinic students at Hebrew Union College-Jewish Institute of Religion's Cincinnati School. The students created the video as a tool for teaching why Jewish college and high school youth and Jews in intermarried couples are primary targets of Christian missionaries.
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help)What is ALEPH's position on so called messianic Judaism? ALEPH has a policy of respect for other spiritual traditions, but objects to deceptive practices and will not collaborate with denominations which actively target Jews for recruitment. Our position on so-called "Messianic Judaism" is that it is Christianity and its proponents would be more honest to call it that.
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help)Thirdly, there is Jews for Jesus or, more generally, Messianic Judaism. This is a movement of people often of Jewish background who have come to believe Jesus is the expected Jewish messiah.…They often have congregations independent of other churches and specifically target Jews for conversion to their form of Christianity.
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help)And while many evangelical Churches are openly supportive of Messianic Judaism, they treat it as an ethnic church squarely within evangelical Christianity, rather than as a separate entity.
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help)By the mid 1970s, Time magazine placed the number of Messianic Jews in the U.S. at over 50,000; by 1993 this number had grown to 160,000 in the U.S.[42] and about 350,000 worldwide (1989 estimate[43]). ... There are currently over 400 Messianic synagogues worldwide, with at least 150 in the U.S.
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I find changing the conclusion of the source to be that all Jewish denominations view MJ as Christianity, skews the intent of the paragraph concerning the MJ position on their Jewish status. Changing the conclusion that MJ is not seen as Jewish by other Jewish denominations, to a DIFFERENT conclusion that MJ is seen by other Jewish denomns as "Christian" seem to me to be POV pushing in the form that the reader is led to believe as "fact" that "if one groups considers MJ to be Christian, then OF COURSE it's certainly not Jewish." Instead the intent of the paragraph is communicated just fine in that the Jewish status of MJ is disputed by all Jewish denomns (the removal of "other" Jewish denoms being the compromise). Now someone wants to take it a step further beyond this concession and now wants to post that all Jewish denoms consider MJ to be Christianity... skewing the original intent of the paragraph, forcing an unwritten conclusion (that if one is Christian that one is not Jewish), and almost smacks of being a disclaimer. To keep balance, I highly suggest not changing this intro without consensus, or else put that information in the appropriate Jewish objections section of the article. inigmatus ( talk) 18:07, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
I've reviewed the history, and I see no support for "many" in the place I made a fact tag. It looks like there was indeed a lot of work back and forth here, there are a lot of citations. One almost implies the "many", and another uses "many" in a different way than is meant in the sentence. My recommendation is to either find an explicit citation of a denomination that officially states Messianic Judaism is NOT Christian, or take out the word "many." I'd be satisfied to stop being a nudge if you two do one of those two things. I don't care which. SkyWriter (Tim) ( talk) 21:13, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
Again, I have no objection to "many" being in there as long as the exception is cited. That's extremely fair. SkyWriter (Tim) ( talk) 21:41, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
Christians do not agree with Jews here. They state a similar conclusion, yes, but they do not do this for the sake of Jews, and they do not care whether they agree or not. As such your cynical edit violates SYNTH. Please remove the cyncism and find a simple exception. Hint: you MAY find something from Reformed (i.e. Calvinistic) groups who object to "Judaizing." I've not seen such a source, but you could possibly find one. I'll even try to look with you. Surely you agree that finding such a source would add some color while supporting the word "Many" in the sentence. This is my final attempt to compromise with you -- and even to HELP you. Please accept it. SkyWriter (Tim) ( talk) 22:05, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
Recommend the following intro -- it's more clear and specific:
Messianic Judaism is a Christian movement that emphasizes the Jewish roots of the Christian religion. Accordingly they continue many Jewish religious and cultural practices, use Jewish names and expressions, and call Jesus by the more Hebraic form of the name -- Yeshua. [1] [2]
The movement is accepted by Christian denominations, and often holds services in Christian churches on Friday nights or Saturday mornings. Larger Messianic congregations build their own synagogues.
Although many members of the movement are halakhically Jewish, the various streams of Judaism are unanimous in their rejection of MJ as a form of Judaism. [3] [4] [5] [6]
As of 1993 there were 160,000 adherents of Messianic Judaism in the United States and 350,000 worldwide. As of 2003, there were at least 150 Messianic synagogues in the U.S. and over 400 worldwide. [7] By 2008, the number of Messianics in the United States was around a quarter million. [8] The number of Messianic Jews in Israel is reported to be anywhere between 6,000 and 15,000 members. [9] [10]
What was wrong or lacking in the previous intro that warrants the necessity for a new one? This new wording almost smacks of a POV disclaimer. Simply posting a source's defintion for MJ that favors one viewpoint that it is Christian funded is totally ignorant of the fact that much of the MJ I am familiar with is serious NOT funded by any Christian organizations. In fact, J4J may be Christian funded, but certain not all of Messianic Judaism which could only be the acceptable criteria for inclusion of such a ridiculous statement, no matter how sourced.
inigmatus (
talk)
19:43, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
I notice that up in the "Sources" section, there's a lot of argument going on about whether MJ is considered a form of Christianity by Christians or not. I think the problem is really one of terminology. Some people read "Christianity" as synonymous with "Christianity and not Judaism". Others read "Christianity" as being consistent with "both Christianity and Judaism".
So what are we saying when we say that "Christians view MJ as a form of Christianity"? Those who see Christianity and Judaism as mutually exclusive will read that as "Christians view MJ as a form of Christianity, and not a form of Judaism". Those who do not can read it as "Christians view MJ as a form of Christianity" without excluding the possibility that they also view it as a form of Judaism.
Obviously, I think they're mutually exclusive. But my view isn't the point here (unfortunately). Still, I think it's incontroverably true that Christians (all of them) would view MJ as a form of Christianity, at least to the extent that they'd view any denomination they don't happen to belong to as being a form of Christianity. Thus Tim's edit is correct. But Ignatius seems to be assuming, ironically enough, the Jewish view as dominant, and is therefore objecting to the statement on the grounds that it implies MJ to be not-Judaism.
I think it's fair to say that:
If there are no objections to this, the question would then be how to phrase this in a clearly understandable way. If there are objections... well, I guess I'll see them Thursday night. Chag Sameach to those who are Jewish and non-MJ. - LisaLiel ( talk) 20:29, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm not married to the version that's there -- but it's more specific than the one J is trying to put in. MJs do not just think they are Jewish, but many of them actually are (even though their religion is Christian). Also, it is not just many Christians who accept them, but there aren't any that reject them on doctrinal grounds (although some "Compound Unity" MJs SHOULD be rejected by Christians as a heresy). Also, they aren't just funded by Christians, but actually worship in their churches unless they are large enough to fund their own building. SkyWriter (Tim) ( talk) 18:42, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
Also -- on consensus -- J just reverted a consensus version. At least today, two editors created the version that one editor reverted. The consensus -- at least at present -- is in favor of mine and Lisa's SkyWriter (Tim) ( talk) 18:44, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
The movement is accepted by Christian denominations, and often holds services in Christian churches on Friday nights or Saturday mornings. Larger Messianic congregations build their own synagogues.
I'll repeat my offer -- I'll source anything that you'll accept if sourced. I won't bother if there is something other than sourcing as a priority here. If the weasle wording is required by some previous consensus in which one side was demanding the weasle wording, then I won't waste your time, or mine, improving the article. So, please tell me what part of my intro you will not accept if it is sourced, and I'll forget about it. However, if you don't, then per Wikipedia standards I'll provide the sources and remove the current weasel wording. It's a fair offer. Just tell me what is prohibited regardless of how well it is sourced, and I'll forget about it. SkyWriter (Tim) ( talk) 20:39, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
I repeat my request -- please state which aspects are immune to Wikipedia standards and sourcing because of political arangements from previous editors. It's a fair request. I will not push Wikipedia standards on the aspects of my intro that you explicitly state are immune. SkyWriter (Tim) ( talk) 20:55, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
Jayjg - First, it's impossible to absolutely disprove a negative. If anything the onus of proof is on one to prove that "Christian funded" is an accurate statement applicable to the general (and for purpose of consensus I would demanding it be applicable to even the orthodox Torah-observant since in my view those are the only Messianic Jews that can rightfully claim the label). Second, I would like to know what exactly is funded - the missionary activities (like what), the buildings, the Torah scrolls, the Artscroll siddurim, the salaries of rabbis who denounce the Church's way of life and its pagan practices? My "tons" of sources are the clear statements that churches will not financially support the "judaizing" of Christianity:
Christians Should Not Give To Those Teaching The Doctrine Of The Judaizers.
But Gal. 6:6-17, read in context with other verses in the Galatian epistle, suggest that Paul was teaching something else as well. As we will see, these verses, read in context, provide evidence that Paul was teaching that Christians should not give to anyone who was teaching the doctrine of the Judaizers, a doctrine which included the teaching that Christians were under obligation to the law of Moses. Three facts provide evidence of this.
from: http://christianitywithoutcompromise.com/essays/webessay3_galatians_.pdf on page 5.
or
"You cannot give money to help build Satan's kingdom," I explained, "and in doing so, please our Lord God. If the Zionist Jews are doggedly determined to mock and disrespect the truth, why should you, a Christian, help make that come to fruition?"
from: http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Wolves/scofield.htm
and many others. inigmatus ( talk) 20:45, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
Inigmatus, YOu quoted Galatians out of context. Yes, what you said Paul wrote, was actually written. HOWEVER, the Judaizers are not equivalent to Messianic Jews. Messianic Jews consider themselves "completed Jews", as in the Hamaschia (sp) has come, and he was Yeshua (JESUS). The Judaizers, on the other hand, were preying on the new and struggling church in Galtia, telling the new Christians that they had to be Jews first. YOur quote it not in context. Thanks! KoshVorlon > rm -r WP:F.U.R 16:37, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
Based on various sources, the religion of 1st century followers of Yeshua is clearly a sect of Judaism, and that Christianity was a gentile-controlled sect of this sect that rose to prominence and power with the rise of the Holy Roman Empire. inigmatus ( talk) 18:51, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
Since you have resumed the previous edit war with three forces today, I've reported the violation. It is impossible to reconstruct the consensus around your disruptive edits. SkyWriter (Tim) ( talk) 19:47, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
The "previous" edits you refer to were to removing unsourced material. Since when does that qualify for a 3RR? But I digress. If you are truly interested in building consensus on the matter of my ADDITIONS (not reverts), then please answer this question for me: how is modern Messianic Judaism different than the "early Christians" which Arstscroll says is a heretical "sect of Judaism"? Furthermore, answer in such a way so as not to disqualify the term "sect of Judaism" for the Sadducees, and the Essenes which are also mentioned in the exact same list. inigmatus ( talk) 19:58, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
Proto-Christianity is not modern Messianism. To make that connection on your own, inigmatus, is a violation of WP:OR and/or WP:SYNTH. I have removed the inaccurate and mistaken extrapolation of the Artscroll commentary. -- Avi ( talk) 20:05, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
See Maoz (currently note 22), Sedaca (currently note 23), Winer (currently note 24), Kehilat Sar Shalom (currently note 25) etc. -- Avi ( talk) 20:16, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
Answering inigmatus above, the line in the article based on Maoz: "The Messianic Judaism movement of today grew out of the Hebrew-Christian movement of the 19th century." -- Avi ( talk) 22:51, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
Also, see Messianic Movement where it is dated back to the 1880s. That the modern-day Messianics attempt to emulate proto-Christians is not the issue; the issue is that their activities are a modern-day phenomenon, and are unquestionably NOT the group referenced by Shmuel HaKatan when he wrote V'Lamalshinim. As Lisa pointed out, Wicca also patterns itself after ancient paganism, but no one will say that Wiccans ARE the ancient pagans. -- Avi ( talk) 22:54, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
Specious argument, Inigmatus. No one denies that modern-day Judaism is the direct continuation of the Rabbinic Judaism of the Second Temple Era. Well, Orthodox Judaism is at least, and if I recall correctly, the remaining branches separated voluntarily from the traditional for well-documented reasons, and still hold themselves to be descendants of the Jewish Tradition. Prior to the Second Temple Era, we are all dealing with oral tradition, with the exception of Nevi'im and K'suvim, of course, and I believe no one claims that Rabbinic Judaism is anything but the primary branch of First Temple, and thus Exodus Judaism. The Essenes, Sadducees, Baitusim, Samaritans, etc. were all branches of Judaism that differed from the main branch (primarily about the primacy of the Oral Law vis-a-vis the Written Law).
Contrast that with Messianism, which for centuries, if not millenia, of recorded history was non-existant and only appeared in the past one to two hundred years. From the time of Peter until the late 19th century, if you believed in Jesus, you were a Christian. -- Avi ( talk) 23:28, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
There was serious work done to represent all sides' understanding of the relationship between Messianism, Judaism, and Christianity. There was at least one mistaken extrapolation/original research in the article now calling it an accepted sect of Judaism; there may be other inaccuracies in the article. It needs to be re-vetted before being relisted, I believe. -- Avi ( talk) 20:13, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
(<-) I think leaving out both "Jewish" and "Christian" and just saying "is a sect…" was the consensus opinion. -- Avi ( talk) 22:50, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
from Lisa:
- Let's not forget Kwisatz Haderach. But no, it's not a common term. It's completely unknown except for a few places within the movement itself. This is like putting "Dat Moshe v'Yisrael" in to the lead of the article on Judaism as an alternative name.
- Off the derech is a common Jewish term for someone who has left Orthodox Judaism. Derech Hashem is an important and widely studied book by Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzzatto. There's no way MJ is going to co-opt that term like this. - LisaLiel ( talk) 23:01, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
(<-)Lisa, I think you are right that the term was "movement" and not "sect". How about "is a religious movement"? -- Avi ( talk) 23:31, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
This is way too much overhead. Messianism is a Christian movement that worships in Jewish overlays. Mainstream Christianity recognizes it as it's own, and even funds it and hosts it in their church buildings. Mainstream Judaism does not recognize it. This isn't a complicated issue. I don't know why inigmatus is trying to make it into one. SkyWriter (Tim) ( talk) 00:26, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
There are many items known as "Haderech". To name a few:
The fact that a some branches of Messianism call themselves HaDerech does not seem to me to be leadworthy, and may be an WP:UNDUE violation. Many of the citations brought in the article itself say nothing about "HaDerech" such as http://rabbiyeshua.com/. I am also uncertain if Harris-Shapiro ever mentions the term, although I do not have access to the book right now. -- Avi ( talk) 22:48, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
Why modify a GA Consensus-built intro, BEFORE bringing such a change here to the talk page, for an article that is hotly contested as this? Please explain. And please explain why a wiki admin would do this too, knowing full well the history of this article? What was lacking for months on end when the intro stood just fine without dispute? I do not support the current intro as modified, as it is patently false in its generalistic application to anyone claiming to be a Messianic Jew. My shul is certainly not supported by Christians, nor are those of many many others. If you're going to add a "Christian" disclaimer (sourced of course) to the intro, then please modify the phrase "various groups of Judaism to say " all other groups of Judaism..." and Ill happily provide that "source" too. If you want compromise, that's what's been agreed to for months. We remove "all other" you remove "Christian" since both are technically accurate with sources, and both are technically wrong with sources. Please keep the intro as-is. If it's not broke, don't fix it. And Chag Sameach to all. inigmatus ( talk) 20:54, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
The citations brought in the Scriptural commentary section nearly all agree that the rabbinic commentaries may not be followed where they differ with the messianic scriptures, which they do on various issues including the relevance, let alone the divinity, of Jesus, circumcsision, Shabbos, and things of that nature. It incorrect to characterize them as anything other than sources stating that the Talmud et. al. may have historical significance in messianism, but is not normative. -- Avi ( talk) 07:43, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
Even the council source was not represented properly. The operative sentence being "Accepted halakha follows the centrality of the written Torah as the final arbiter and standard for behavior and right living." Which goes against the entire nature and purpose of the Talmud. This was the main battle between the Pharisees and just about everyone else (Sadducees, Essnes, Karaites, Samaritans, etc.) which was how the Oral Law affected the Written Law. -- Avi ( talk) 07:49, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
I removed the following two sentences from the lead:
Although Messianic Jews consider themselves to be Jewish,[7] the various streams of Judaism are unanimous in their rejection of Messianism as a form of Judaism.[8][9] Christians and Jews consider Messianic Judaism to be a form of Christianity.[10]
In my opinion, these two sentences are the cause of all the edit warring that has been taking place in this article. The reason I removed the material is that the lead is supposed to give a summary of the important aspects of the subject. I do not see anything in the article to suggest that what non-messianic jews think of messianic judaism is an important enough topic to be included in the lead. I do not even see any evidence to suggest that what non-messianic jews think of messianic judaism is notable enough to be included in the article at all.
Because A Sniper reverted my edit without explanation, I am going to re-do it. I'd like to request that the material remain out of the lead while a discussion ensues over its appropriateness here on the talk pages. If an editor is so invested in seeing this stuff in the lead that they choose to undo my edit, then I ask that they at least please explain why they feel the material is so crucial, and addresses the notability of the material to the article, as well as its notability to the lead. Thanks. Mmyotis (^^o^^) 16:04, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
None of you has provided evidence to support your claim that the material questioning the legitimacy of the beliefs of Messianic Jews belongs in the lead. The comparisson to an article on social capitalism is a non-sequitor. Messianic Judaism is a religion, not a political movement. A proper comparisson would be to other articles on religion. There are many of them out there, and not one of them includes questions of the legitimacy of the faithful's beliefs from the perspective of outsiders anywhere in the article at all, let alone in the lead. The reason for this should be obvious. Such a discussion is not relevant to the subject of the article and, where editors try to insert it, the motivation is invariably rooted in POV pushing. Mmyotis (^^o^^) 12:34, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
Found this: on JPost.com "Messianic Jews believe that Yeshua (Jesus) is their Messiah, but still consider themselves to be Jewish. Jews of other denominations do not consider Messianic Judaism to be a form of Judaism, but a form of Christianity." [2]
Seems to me that if one is looking for a Jewish source that says "Jews of other denominations" this is certainly one. As I said, support for wording the lead one way or the other depending on one's POV can be found. This is why we have all compromised on the current lead as-is and it has remained stable for months. Please don't change it from "Although many Messianic Jews are ethnically Jewish,[7] the various streams of Judaism are unanimous in their rejection of Messianism as a form of Judaism.[8][9] Christians and Jews consider Messianic Judaism to be a form of Christianity.[10]", or please remove it entirely. As long as this remains, and "Messianic Judaism is a religious movement whose adherents..." then I'm happy, and I hope all of us are happy with the compromise. inigmatus ( talk) 16:20, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
This edit warring is getting tedious. I'm heading out for a while before I get dragged into it. SkyWriter (Tim) ( talk) 16:49, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
May this Post Be Proof Of My Intent to Reach Out and Dialogue Before Making Changes So That No Administrator Will See That I Am the One Attempting to Honestly Work On the Article, Discuss Its Changes First, And Make Sourced Corrections That Are Being Reverted By You Without Cause, Discussion, Or Dispute:
SkyWriter, just because I make a correction to a source, you assume it's an edit war and revert the changes without reading the changes, nor responding to Talk the reasons the changes were made. You are not showing good faith, and are assuming an edit war when there is none. Why do you keep deleting the correction to the Shapiro source? According to [3], the source clearly says:
"Messianic Judaism is a largely American Jewish/Christian movement whose origins can be traced in the United States to Hebrew Christian missions to the Jews in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, the Jesus people of the late 1960s and early 1970s, and the resurgence of American Jewish ethnicity during the same decades. Messianic Jewish congregations are composed of both those born Jewish who accept Jesus as their savior and their Gentile supports who adopt a "Jewish lifestyle.""
Tell me, for sake of clarity, and source accuracy, where do you find this exact quote:
"Messianic Judaism is a Jewish/Christian movement whose origins can be traced in the United States to Hebrew Christian missions to the Jews in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, the Jesus people of the late 1960s and early 1970s, and the resurgence of American Jewish ethnicity during those same decades. Messianic Jewish congregations comprise those born Jewish who accept Jesus as their Savior, as well as Gentiles who convert to Messianic Judaism. Worldwide the Messianic Jewish Movement can be traced to the London Society for the Promotion of Christianity among the Jews (now The Church's Ministry Among Jewish People), which was founded in 1809 and is the world's oldest extant Jewish Mission. In the United Kingdom there are a number of Messianic Congregations. They fall into 2 "camps". One, the British Messianic Jewish Alliance, is the world's oldest such Alliance, founded 1866. The other is the Union of British Messianic Jewish Congergations.""
Where is that quote found ANYWHERE in the source? Please give me page number as I am not finding it at all, and your modifications to a verified accurate source to one that is made up is nothing short of vandalism. For the record I have posted on your user page very clearly this intent to dialogue with you, and now you won't even answer the charge. [4] - classical avoidance that can only lead me to suspect that you intend to vandalize this document and not deal with the objection. I'm getting a WP:3O on this before correcting the source (and thus the intro) yet again. That way you can't say it's a revert or editing war. inigmatus ( talk) 16:53, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
(<-) Arthur Rubin has a few points, both regarding sources and regarding Messianisms relationship to Christianity and Judaism. Although, I would say that notwithstanding the term "heresy" perhaps being the most accurate, its negative connotation may not be the most encyclopedic, especially for the lead. Inside the article, perhaps is the proper place to describe Messianisms heresy (wiki definition: "Heresy is an introduced change to some system of belief, especially a religion, that conflicts with the previously established canon of that belief.") -- Avi ( talk) 20:19, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
(undent) arrived here via 3O, and if I may I'd like to make an alternate suggestion. why not be right upfront and say that they are a movement that tries to unify the Christian and Jewish faiths, rather than trying to pin it into one or the other? something like (copying the current lead, but omitting the references for readability):
Messianic Judaism is a faith that merges Christian and Jewish religious traditions. The central belief of the faith is that Yeshua - a hebrew or aramaic name for Jesus of Nazareth - is both the resurrected Jewish Messiah and the Divine Savior. Its canon draws from Christain and Jewish sources, including the Old and New Testaments and the Torah. Adherents of the faith are primarily ethnic or cultural Jews, but Messianic Judaism is generally considered to be a form of Christianity, from its recognition of Yeshua as divine. As of 1993 there were 160,000 adherents of Messianic Judaism in the United States and 350,000 worldwide. As of 2003, there were at least 150 Messianic synagogues in the U.S. and over 400 worldwide. By 2008, the number of Messianics in the United States was around a quarter million. The number of Messianic Jews in Israel is reported to be anywhere between 6,000 and 15,000 members.
-- Ludwigs2 02:06, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
"Messianic Judaism" is a Christian funded and organized movement whose origins can be traced to the United States through Christian missions to the Jews in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, the Jesus people of the late 1960s and early 1970s, and the resurgence of American Jewish ethnicity during those same decades. "Messianic Jewish" congregations (churches) are comprised of those who may have been born Jewish, however, have become an apostate to Judaism by accepting Jesus as their savior. These churches however, are mostly run and comprised of Christians who have already accepted the belief of Jesus as their messiah. Worldwide the Messianic Jewish Movement can be traced to the London Society for the Promotion of Christianity among the Jews (now The Church's Ministry Among Jewish People), which was founded in 1809 and is the world's oldest extant Jewish Mission. In the United Kingdom there are a number of Messianic Congregations. They fall into 2 "camps". One, the British Messianic Jewish Alliance, is the world's oldest such Alliance, founded 1866. The other is the Union of British Messianic Jewish Congergations.
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Messianic Judaism of the first century busied itself with telling everyone of the Good News, it boldly proclaimed Yeshua – the resurrected Messiah – to all men and women.…Sin is lawlessness, it is "Torahlessness". If one is truly in Messiah, then one will be Torah observant.
We recognize the desire of people from the nations to convert into Messianic Judaism, also known as HaDerech (The Way), a sect of Judaism. By converting to the Jewish faith, converts are therefore...considered fully Jewish...[and] are not to be reminded of their gentile (pagan) past by others
For most American Jews, it is acceptable to blend some degree of foreign spiritual elements with Judaism. The one exception is Christianity, which is perceived to be incompatible with any form of Jewishness....Messianic Jewish groups are thus seen as antithetical to Judaism and are completely rejected by the majority of Jews.
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Missionary Impossible, an imaginative video and curriculum guide for teachers, educators, and rabbis to teach Jewish youth how to recognize and respond to "Jews-for-Jesus," "Messianic Jews," and other Christian proselytizers, has been produced by six rabbinic students at Hebrew Union College-Jewish Institute of Religion's Cincinnati School. The students created the video as a tool for teaching why Jewish college and high school youth and Jews in intermarried couples are primary targets of Christian missionaries.
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help)What is ALEPH's position on so called messianic Judaism? ALEPH has a policy of respect for other spiritual traditions, but objects to deceptive practices and will not collaborate with denominations which actively target Jews for recruitment. Our position on so-called "Messianic Judaism" is that it is Christianity and its proponents would be more honest to call it that.
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help)Thirdly, there is Jews for Jesus or, more generally, Messianic Judaism. This is a movement of people often of Jewish background who have come to believe Jesus is the expected Jewish messiah.…They often have congregations independent of other churches and specifically target Jews for conversion to their form of Christianity.
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help)From a mainstream Christian perspective Messianic Judaisms can also provoke hostility for misrepresenting Christianity.
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help)And while many evangelical Churches are openly supportive of Messianic Judaism, they treat it as an ethnic church squarely within evangelical Christianity, rather than as a separate entity.
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help)By the mid 1970s, Time magazine placed the number of Messianic Jews in the U.S. at over 50,000; by 1993 this number had grown to 160,000 in the U.S.[42] and about 350,000 worldwide (1989 estimate[43]). ... There are currently over 400 Messianic synagogues worldwide, with at least 150 in the U.S.