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Some of the few words presented here are very similar to presentday Albanian. Aran - arën, the (cultivated) field (as accusative object) Aprodita - afërdita, the dawn, also used as a girls' name Klauhi - quaj, call Mazzes - (i) madh, big
More about the relations between Messapian and Albanian in this site: http://www.gjuha-shqipe.com/english/content/about_albanian/history.html
LM 217.209.140.193 03:41, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Messapian Proto-Albanian Albanian meaning bili(v)a birlā bijë, bilë daughter brendon "deer" brina bri, pl. brirë horn, antler grahis, graiva grāwā grua, pl. gra woman, wife klaohi "listen" klāusnja quaj, quej to call kos kusa kush who skero (Salentine Greek) skirā hirrë whey veinam "self" swam > wa u reflexive clitic pronoun
swaja vehte self
venas wana uri, û (Gheg dial. unja) hunger —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lisa the Sociopath ( talk • contribs) 10:18, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
I want to know how come is written that Messapic is Centum while seeing the sources (not the ones on the article because there are not) and the phonetic rules it looks like a satem language?. Aigest ( talk) 15:37, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
I read sources years ago saying that this passage is probably mostly names: I will bold at least some of them that look like names to me:
klohi zis (=Zeus?) thotoria marta pido vastei basta veinan aran in daranthoa vasti (?) staboos xohedonas (?) daxtassi (?) vaanetos (Venetic v.a.nt.s, name) inthi trigonoxo a staboos xohetthihi dazimaihi beiliihi inthi rexxorixoa kazareihi xohetthihi toeihithi dazohonnihi inthi vastima daxtas kratheheihi inthi ardannoa poxxonnihi a imarnaihi
---I will find more info showing why I think those are names, but I want to find the sources that I remember so I can source it in the article. I am so sure that the observation that is is mostly names is agreed upon, I will add that info ahead of time. Alex ( talk) 01:37, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Some apparent first names?: Daranthoa, Rexxorixoa, Ardannoa, Thotoria, Dachtas (?; written Daxtas), Vaanetos. Alex ( talk) 02:01, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Well, dazimaihi and dazohonnihi have been accepted as Messapic names related to Illyrian and Thracian Dasius,Dazaios, Dazas, Dazos Aigest ( talk) 11:38, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Above Brundis is even bilia (daughter) connected to Alb bir(son) (while Old Alb bila) as Hamp here [1] Aigest ( talk) 11:45, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
While another cognate is Jupiter Menzanas the horse deity of the Messapians, apparently with cognates in Illyrian mandos, Albanian maz, mëz(ponny) and Thracian Mezenai Aigest ( talk) 12:03, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
The text below was added by an anonymous editor, & lacks citations -- or even a clear point for inclusion. -- llywrch ( talk) 16:33, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
kaj Ziut Dekias Artahias Thautori en nderr Gjithe venit (connected with gheg albanian)
Thautorri probably means ruler, or king.
Βατο, Krakkos, or any contributor watching this page, could you help me adding one or several pictures of Messapic inscriptions from this page? I'm not sure which license tag I must use or if I have the right to do so. Thank you, sincerely, Azerty82 ( talk) 16:47, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
Azerty82, according to the material given by scholars, the English tranlation of hipakaθi ϴaotoras Keošorrihi bilia seems incorrect: ϴaotoras Keošorrihi bilia should be ϴaotora, daughter of Keošorr, and hipakaθi is related to 'offer', but I have not sources for the whole tranlation. What do you think? – Βατο ( talk) 11:56, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
hipakaθi ϴaotoras Keosorrihi bilia :: 'Hipaka figlia di ϴaotor Keosorrihi'
Messapic; also known as Messapian, or Iapygian to refer to the pre-Roman, non-Italic languages of the southeastern Italian peninsula)Azerty82 ( talk) 14:20, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
...is an extinct...The rest of the lede will remain untouched Azerty82 ( talk) 14:35, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
I don't have much time to contribute to the article for now. Matzinger has written an interesting article (in Italian).
/š/ is often used for /ʃ/ (the postalveolar voiceless sibilant fricative) but some clarity -- perhaps in prose -- could be helpful for readers I believe. Likewise, it appears surprising that a language in this area would possess /q/, an uvular voiceless stop, as a phoneme, which is generally not common in European languages outside the Caucasus (though Punic on the other side of the Mediterranean did possess it), though if sources report this clearly I would not doubt it. -- Calthinus ( talk) 16:28, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
a new datum of importance for historical phonology is provided by the particle anda ‘and, as well’ (MLM II, s. v.), which most likely can be traced back to PIE *n̥dó and therefore provides evidence for the outcome of the syllabic nasal in Messapic.I haven't find another source to support that yet. Azerty82 ( talk) 19:48, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
Does not answer this question, but here is Klein/Joseph/Fritz 2018 on the matter -- may be good for the page elsewhere as this very much reflects the current canon on the various branches of IE and how each fit in [ [3]]. A very useful tome, one of my current favorites :). It covers PIE *s > Messapic h and PIE *o > Messapic a, plus some other vowel developments. -- Calthinus ( talk) 22:11, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
Klein/Fritz/Joseph explicitly say, in the second sentence of Alphabet that eta was "consonantal, not ē". I appreciate we have "heta". How should this be handled? -- Calthinus ( talk) 02:53, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
The Eteocretan theory is mentioned by historian Gustave Glotz, in a 1925 source ( WP:AGEMATTERS). It's an old source, and the historian (not linguist) mentions the connection in passing, without giving any evidence ( WP:FRINGE). Eteocretan is unclassified, and it is not regarded as related to Messapic today, while Messapic is considered Indo-European, and connected to the ancient I-E languages of the Balkans in current scholarship. Find better sources, and add information complying with WP:DUEWEIGHT, please. – Βατο ( talk) 09:52, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
@Maleschreiber "Balkans" is a geographical region, not a linguistic one. However not only Messapic, but also Oscan, Umbrian, and even Latin and Faliscan were likely to stem from the Balkan peninsula. Please read here: Philip Baldi (2018). The Foundations of Latin. Walter de Gruyter GmbH & Co KG. p. 104.
ISBN
9783110892604.</ref> "Colonists came across the Mediterranean (...), from the Danube and general central Europe (...), and also from the Balkan region via the Adriatic into central Italy. It is possible that the east-west movement into Italy was the source of the western Italic languages such as Latin and Faliscan, and that these were followed later by the eastern Italic languages such as Oscan and Umbrian. Finally, a southerly incursion brought the southern languages such as Messapic."
@Ktrimi991 I would simply point out that Messapic is usually regarded separately from Illyrian. Please read that source: Carlos Ramirez-Faria (2007). Concise Encyclopeida Of World History. Atlantic Publishers & Dist. p. 345.
ISBN
9788126907755. "The main groups of the IE branch (...) are Greek, Slavic, Baltic, Germanic, and Italic. Other surviving groups are Armenian, Celtic, and Illyrian (modern Albanian). IE groups and individual languages that have not survived are: Thracian, Phrygian, Anatolian (...), Venetic, and Messapic."
Thus it is clearly not correct to categorize this article as a "Messapic language", since
WP:Categorization states "Categorization of articles must be verifiable". Unfortunately the whole article appears to be pro-Albanian biased, even though the reliable sources' approach is quite neutral.--
3knolls (
talk)
07:14, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
I'm not used to hurting anyone, but your behavior seemed actually very unusual and suspicious to me. However, I think the template "Illyrians" is currently not very useful as it is too long and confusing ( WP:NAVBOX), so I propose splitting it up by creating a new template specifically dedicated to the "Iapygians" (who were not Illyrian proper, but a population born of an intermingling of Paleo-Balkan groups with Italic elements instead). Within this new template one may then insert links to the Paleo-Balkans, the Illyrians, the Italics, and so on. I also propose splitting List of Illyrian peoples and tribes in the same manner; indeed, I notice that it has already been suggested to merge this list into List of ancient tribes in Illyria, which would imply taking Iapygian tribes out. -- 3knolls ( talk) 22:23, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
I removed the section "Oscan theory", which almost entirely discusses the alleged mother tongue of Ennius, that is completely offtopic for the classification of the Messapic language. The modern sources added to support this alleged theory actually do not mention such classification for Messapic. The entire section was initially added only based on a 19th century source, which cannot be considered scientific within contemporary linguistic research. Hence it cannot remain as per Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. – Βατο ( talk) 13:06, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Messapic language article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Some of the few words presented here are very similar to presentday Albanian. Aran - arën, the (cultivated) field (as accusative object) Aprodita - afërdita, the dawn, also used as a girls' name Klauhi - quaj, call Mazzes - (i) madh, big
More about the relations between Messapian and Albanian in this site: http://www.gjuha-shqipe.com/english/content/about_albanian/history.html
LM 217.209.140.193 03:41, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Messapian Proto-Albanian Albanian meaning bili(v)a birlā bijë, bilë daughter brendon "deer" brina bri, pl. brirë horn, antler grahis, graiva grāwā grua, pl. gra woman, wife klaohi "listen" klāusnja quaj, quej to call kos kusa kush who skero (Salentine Greek) skirā hirrë whey veinam "self" swam > wa u reflexive clitic pronoun
swaja vehte self
venas wana uri, û (Gheg dial. unja) hunger —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lisa the Sociopath ( talk • contribs) 10:18, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
I want to know how come is written that Messapic is Centum while seeing the sources (not the ones on the article because there are not) and the phonetic rules it looks like a satem language?. Aigest ( talk) 15:37, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
I read sources years ago saying that this passage is probably mostly names: I will bold at least some of them that look like names to me:
klohi zis (=Zeus?) thotoria marta pido vastei basta veinan aran in daranthoa vasti (?) staboos xohedonas (?) daxtassi (?) vaanetos (Venetic v.a.nt.s, name) inthi trigonoxo a staboos xohetthihi dazimaihi beiliihi inthi rexxorixoa kazareihi xohetthihi toeihithi dazohonnihi inthi vastima daxtas kratheheihi inthi ardannoa poxxonnihi a imarnaihi
---I will find more info showing why I think those are names, but I want to find the sources that I remember so I can source it in the article. I am so sure that the observation that is is mostly names is agreed upon, I will add that info ahead of time. Alex ( talk) 01:37, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Some apparent first names?: Daranthoa, Rexxorixoa, Ardannoa, Thotoria, Dachtas (?; written Daxtas), Vaanetos. Alex ( talk) 02:01, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Well, dazimaihi and dazohonnihi have been accepted as Messapic names related to Illyrian and Thracian Dasius,Dazaios, Dazas, Dazos Aigest ( talk) 11:38, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Above Brundis is even bilia (daughter) connected to Alb bir(son) (while Old Alb bila) as Hamp here [1] Aigest ( talk) 11:45, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
While another cognate is Jupiter Menzanas the horse deity of the Messapians, apparently with cognates in Illyrian mandos, Albanian maz, mëz(ponny) and Thracian Mezenai Aigest ( talk) 12:03, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
The text below was added by an anonymous editor, & lacks citations -- or even a clear point for inclusion. -- llywrch ( talk) 16:33, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
kaj Ziut Dekias Artahias Thautori en nderr Gjithe venit (connected with gheg albanian)
Thautorri probably means ruler, or king.
Βατο, Krakkos, or any contributor watching this page, could you help me adding one or several pictures of Messapic inscriptions from this page? I'm not sure which license tag I must use or if I have the right to do so. Thank you, sincerely, Azerty82 ( talk) 16:47, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
Azerty82, according to the material given by scholars, the English tranlation of hipakaθi ϴaotoras Keošorrihi bilia seems incorrect: ϴaotoras Keošorrihi bilia should be ϴaotora, daughter of Keošorr, and hipakaθi is related to 'offer', but I have not sources for the whole tranlation. What do you think? – Βατο ( talk) 11:56, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
hipakaθi ϴaotoras Keosorrihi bilia :: 'Hipaka figlia di ϴaotor Keosorrihi'
Messapic; also known as Messapian, or Iapygian to refer to the pre-Roman, non-Italic languages of the southeastern Italian peninsula)Azerty82 ( talk) 14:20, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
...is an extinct...The rest of the lede will remain untouched Azerty82 ( talk) 14:35, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
I don't have much time to contribute to the article for now. Matzinger has written an interesting article (in Italian).
/š/ is often used for /ʃ/ (the postalveolar voiceless sibilant fricative) but some clarity -- perhaps in prose -- could be helpful for readers I believe. Likewise, it appears surprising that a language in this area would possess /q/, an uvular voiceless stop, as a phoneme, which is generally not common in European languages outside the Caucasus (though Punic on the other side of the Mediterranean did possess it), though if sources report this clearly I would not doubt it. -- Calthinus ( talk) 16:28, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
a new datum of importance for historical phonology is provided by the particle anda ‘and, as well’ (MLM II, s. v.), which most likely can be traced back to PIE *n̥dó and therefore provides evidence for the outcome of the syllabic nasal in Messapic.I haven't find another source to support that yet. Azerty82 ( talk) 19:48, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
Does not answer this question, but here is Klein/Joseph/Fritz 2018 on the matter -- may be good for the page elsewhere as this very much reflects the current canon on the various branches of IE and how each fit in [ [3]]. A very useful tome, one of my current favorites :). It covers PIE *s > Messapic h and PIE *o > Messapic a, plus some other vowel developments. -- Calthinus ( talk) 22:11, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
Klein/Fritz/Joseph explicitly say, in the second sentence of Alphabet that eta was "consonantal, not ē". I appreciate we have "heta". How should this be handled? -- Calthinus ( talk) 02:53, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
The Eteocretan theory is mentioned by historian Gustave Glotz, in a 1925 source ( WP:AGEMATTERS). It's an old source, and the historian (not linguist) mentions the connection in passing, without giving any evidence ( WP:FRINGE). Eteocretan is unclassified, and it is not regarded as related to Messapic today, while Messapic is considered Indo-European, and connected to the ancient I-E languages of the Balkans in current scholarship. Find better sources, and add information complying with WP:DUEWEIGHT, please. – Βατο ( talk) 09:52, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
@Maleschreiber "Balkans" is a geographical region, not a linguistic one. However not only Messapic, but also Oscan, Umbrian, and even Latin and Faliscan were likely to stem from the Balkan peninsula. Please read here: Philip Baldi (2018). The Foundations of Latin. Walter de Gruyter GmbH & Co KG. p. 104.
ISBN
9783110892604.</ref> "Colonists came across the Mediterranean (...), from the Danube and general central Europe (...), and also from the Balkan region via the Adriatic into central Italy. It is possible that the east-west movement into Italy was the source of the western Italic languages such as Latin and Faliscan, and that these were followed later by the eastern Italic languages such as Oscan and Umbrian. Finally, a southerly incursion brought the southern languages such as Messapic."
@Ktrimi991 I would simply point out that Messapic is usually regarded separately from Illyrian. Please read that source: Carlos Ramirez-Faria (2007). Concise Encyclopeida Of World History. Atlantic Publishers & Dist. p. 345.
ISBN
9788126907755. "The main groups of the IE branch (...) are Greek, Slavic, Baltic, Germanic, and Italic. Other surviving groups are Armenian, Celtic, and Illyrian (modern Albanian). IE groups and individual languages that have not survived are: Thracian, Phrygian, Anatolian (...), Venetic, and Messapic."
Thus it is clearly not correct to categorize this article as a "Messapic language", since
WP:Categorization states "Categorization of articles must be verifiable". Unfortunately the whole article appears to be pro-Albanian biased, even though the reliable sources' approach is quite neutral.--
3knolls (
talk)
07:14, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
I'm not used to hurting anyone, but your behavior seemed actually very unusual and suspicious to me. However, I think the template "Illyrians" is currently not very useful as it is too long and confusing ( WP:NAVBOX), so I propose splitting it up by creating a new template specifically dedicated to the "Iapygians" (who were not Illyrian proper, but a population born of an intermingling of Paleo-Balkan groups with Italic elements instead). Within this new template one may then insert links to the Paleo-Balkans, the Illyrians, the Italics, and so on. I also propose splitting List of Illyrian peoples and tribes in the same manner; indeed, I notice that it has already been suggested to merge this list into List of ancient tribes in Illyria, which would imply taking Iapygian tribes out. -- 3knolls ( talk) 22:23, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
I removed the section "Oscan theory", which almost entirely discusses the alleged mother tongue of Ennius, that is completely offtopic for the classification of the Messapic language. The modern sources added to support this alleged theory actually do not mention such classification for Messapic. The entire section was initially added only based on a 19th century source, which cannot be considered scientific within contemporary linguistic research. Hence it cannot remain as per Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. – Βατο ( talk) 13:06, 7 June 2024 (UTC)