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"in order to gain power through the "spiritual" dynasty of Peter instead of the "holy blood" (i.e. Sangreal) of Mary Magdalene's descendants."
Peter? Don't you mean Paul?
Although I haven't read the book in question, If the "Roman Church" did anything to enhance a spiritual dynasty it would be the dynasy of Peter, not Paul. They RC church claims Peter as the 1st Pope and claims the the Bishop of Rome is Peter's heir and has inherited the authority given to Peter by Christ. ("On this Rock...).
Dsmdgold 02:30, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Just wondering, but should we really have the entirely dubious pseudo-history of this book in what is otherwise a sensible article about a Frankish dynasty? Why not just say something like "The Merovingian dynasty is at the center of the esoteric history of bla bla blas' book Holy Blood, Holy Grail," and then discuss the rest of the theory in an article on the book. Given that absolutely no actual historians give any credence whatsoever to these nonsensical theories (whatever the fact that they are used in The Da Vinci Code), I don't think these theories ought to be written about in any detail on this page. john 05:47, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Oh, does that mean that Bram Stoker's book "Dracula" should not be mentioned on the article about Vlad Tepes, either? If it involves them, it should still be involved. Simply add a precautionary statement about how the book should be taken with a grain of salt. That's all. It involves them, and whether you like it or not, the book itself IS part of our history, so therefore it's real enough. The fact that it gives mention to them is enough to add it here, just as Nicholas Flamel is mentioned in Harry Potter. And yes, I am aware that I am using fictional books for examples, but I can't think of anything else for this situation. MasterXiam 18:37, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
I think the major deciding factor is to the centrality of the information. This article is (at present) strongly coupled to the dynastic history of the Merovingians, and it makes a very good and easy to read article in that form; adding cross-references of various types to the bottom of the article is a good idea, but diluting the content with information which isn't really related to the general theme of the content is probably not a good idea.
Having said that, I think the Magdalene descent issue is probably close enough to the subject matter to deserve a short paragraph, with appropriate disclaimers and cross-referencing, near the end.
I'm of the mind that when the article's content starts to become diluted, it needs to be renamed and/or disambiguated--maybe this information should be renamed 'merovingian dynasty' or something of the sort? -- Penumbra 2k 13:12, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Certainly (at the highest level of certainty a human being can have)the merovigians are not descendants of Christ or Mary Magdalene, but my question is, what did people at the time believed? Was at any century a sect that professed such ideas?
I moved the text on the Matrix character the Merovingian to a separate article. It really doesn't belong in an article about the historical Merovingian dynasty. Will create disambiguation page shortly. McMullen
The article currently contains this text:
"Clovis on his death partitioned his kingdom among his four sons according to Frankish custom. Over the next two centuries, this tradition would continue; however, accidents of fertility would ensure that occasionally the whole realm would be reunited under a single king; and even when multiple Merovingian kings ruled, the kingdom was conceived of as a single realm ruled collectively by several kings. In this way, the Frankish Kingdom resembled the later Roman Empire."
Someone recently changed "Roman Empire" to "Holy Roman Empire". This is incorrect. The later Roman Empire was frequently ruled by multiple emperors, though they were conceived of as a college of rulers over a single realm -- and in this way (though not in all that many others), the Merovingian realm was like the later Roman Empire. The Holy Roman Empire, however, was always ruled over by a single emperor -- there was never a situation in which there were multiple Holy Roman Emperors. Even when the later Carolinians divided up Charlemagne's empire, there was alwyas only one emperor.
-- Jfruh 22:57, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I just changed "later Roman Empire" to "earlier Roman Empire", because the Roman Empire was indeed earlier. However, this sentence originally stated "later Holy Roman Empire". I think the change to delete "Holy" was incorrect. So one may want to make that change, I'm not certain enough to do it. However, it clearly should either be "earlier Roman Empire" or "later Holy Roman Empire".
"THERE WAS ALWAYS ONLY ONE EMPEROR": I thought that there were times when there was no Emperor?
Actually, that's not really true. There countless examples of more than one Emperor, ever since Diocletian and before and after. Str1977 2 July 2005 02:45 (UTC)
Yes, you're right. And in the Roman Empire, if there were several emperors/caesars there was always one who was supreme, e.g. Marcus Aurelius over Verus, Diocletian over the other three rulers and even after his resignation, and in the 5th century usually the Eastern Emperor. That was also the basis of the agreement between Charlemagne and Emperor Michael, though they didn't say so explicitely.
In the early Frankish kingdom (511-613) there was no clear cut "primus", as they division was more of a division of revenue and administration and not actually a permanent separating (of course later, helped by all these divisions, regional identities developed). After 613 however, there always was some primacy of Neustria over Austrasia. After the kingdoms returned to having just one king, he resided in Neustria. This primacy also shows in the development of Neustria adopting the name Francia which subsequently ended up as France.
In the German kingdom as part of the HRE there was only one king (except for Bohemia, of course) and for a long time, the heir could only be elected king of the Romans if his father was Emperor. In legal fiction, the son then would be the king of Germany while his father was Emperor. In reality, the father retained the rule, as is best seen in Frederick II and Henry (VII).
So in the HRE there was only one Emperor at a time (rival claims notwithstanding) - the two-Emperor problem relates to the relations with the Eastern Empire. The basis is not so much the existence of more than one Emperor but the supremacy of one over the other (Rome the city vs. the historical continuity of the Eastern Empire). Str1977 08:55, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
This article was cited in "Secrets of the Code: The Unauthorized Guide to Mysteries Behind the Da Vinci Code" by Dan Burstein p. 365 HC 1st Edition 2004, as some of you may know. But anyone reading the book's mention of wikipedia could never find the quote unless they searched way back to [1] in the history. I believe this to be a flaw in wikipedia only because a vanishing source of information is unreliable and self-defeating. If the editors of the publication include wiki as source, the curious reader should have easy access. We tend to forget our freedom to edit over and over these articles seems to invalidate a printed source. If this makes sense, could you add some link to the history page listed above? On the lighter side, from the Twins in Matrix Reloaded: we are getting aggravated, aren't we? yes we are. BF 18:18, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
What about the West African People who to this day still have customes that mirror Hebrew customes but yet there is no mention of this fact,could they be directly decsended by blood from the original hebrews. A fact that is often overlooked is that after the fall of Israel,Hebrews migrated in great numbers to West Africa and along the East African Coast but I read no mention of them. In scipture the trials of the Hebrew People are written in detail, from slavery the loss of identity, children, homeland, culture,religion etc. It is my belief that these scriptures only apply the people known today as African Americans..not the French/Franks User: 205.142.197.75 07:24, 30 May 2005
That the Merovingians in general lacked a sense of res publica is a fable derived from 19th century historiography. Some of course put their own whims first, but others clearly had a sense of res publica. Otherwise this entity would not have survived. This is why I deleted the phrase and this is why I will delete it again. Str1977 18:16, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
... For anyone else, I recommend Michel Rouche, "Private life conquers State and Society" in Paul Veyne, A History of Private Life: 1. From Pagan Rome to Byzantium. ... -- Wetman 15:57, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Wetman, I removed your personal attacks and wrong potrayal of me. I know perfectly well what res publica means and what the Merovingians are all about. I know and have posted before that this take on the M. was discussed by scholars, but this was an oversimplification. You point to a book, I can do the same. Read the Karl Ferdinand Werner's first volume of the History of France. Str1977 08:19, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
Ok, now I understand the basis for your (still wrong accusations): I reverted an edit of yours back to what you criticized. But my opposition was purely against the word "legendary", as the conversion was not legendary (in the popular sense of the term) but a real historical event. I should not have simply reverted back to the previous version, which indeed was dodgy (click [ [2]] to see the original intrusion of what you criticized. That was before I ever entered this article).
I have also reinserted your "lack of sense of res publica" phrase but also given the counter point. After all, the oversimplification was held by historians and hence it is not unencyclopedic. Str1977 08:42, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
My source talks about res publica as well. I think the real issue here is not that they "lacked" in anything, they simply prefered another way of looking at things. If your going to word it in such a way that its controversial, then you will need to expand on it and discuss the historiographical issues, otherwise it make no sense. Stbalbach 12:53, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
That'd extend the limitations of wikipedia. It's not that they "prefered another way of looking at things" - that's just saying the same in post-modern idiom (i.e. "non-judgemental"). It's that under the circumstances of the time they "organized" the administration of their part of the res publica differently than other times did. Str1977 13:08, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
It would extended the limitations of Wikipedia? Please explain. If they organized the administration of their part of the res publica differently than other times did then say that in the article and provide sources instead of "some historians" weasel terms. Stbalbach 13:45, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
I already mentioned K.F. Werner. Str1977 15:50, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
You know, being in the apparently very small minority of people who haven't read the Da Vinci Code, I've just now learned its central premise (SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER), apparently cribbed from Holy Blood, Holy Grail, that the Merovingians were descended from Jesus and Mary Magdalen. Which explains a lot of the activity on this page that has been so baffling to me. Now of course the connection is complete nonsense, but since the Merovingians are a fairly obscure topic and the DVC is a very popular book, a lot of people might be wandering over here based on what they read in the DVC. (There's actually a link from The Da Vinci Code over to here.) With that in mind, should we perhaps make a brief section at the end that takes on the claims of this book in more detail and presents the accepted scholarly reasons for why its bunk? -- Jfruh 18:42, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
Incompetent fingerpainting will not be good enough at this article. I have had to revert recent woolly blather:
... what part of the speedy deletion policy were you invoking when you deleted List of Presidential gaffes? I noticed this on recent changes, found it quite amusing and was looking for it again to add to it and discovered it deleted. You are aware that you should have sent this to AfD? I have undeleted. I'm about to post this to WP:AN/I. - Ta bu shi da yu 13:49, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
The references to Belgium were removed because to include it leaves the question of why the Netherlands, Luxembourg, and Switzerland are not also included. The fact is that all these nations are essentially historical breakaways from a larger French or German state, thus, they are coverred by the understanding that, in this historical context, France and Germany are not used to mean the states exactly as they are today. Furthermore, they are themselves largely the descendants of Merovingian polities and the term "frequently fluctuating" is added to make sure the idea that the borders of the Merovingian realm do not correspond even roughtly to those of any extant modern nation. Srnec 20:05, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Hmm. I disagree. The introduction as it is is, I think, misleading - it says that the area fluctuated in modern France and Germany without mentioning lands outside modern France and Germany (which I don't think are 'essentially historical breakaways from a larger French or German state'). There should also maybe be mention that the Merovingian lands are weighted more to modern France than modern Germany. 165.165.200.199 21:38, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Idea on a loosely related note: A blank map of Europe showing dashed lines for semi-modern borders, and solid lines for the understood borders of the Merovingians' domains. -- Penumbra 2k 13:29, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
In regard to The Da Vinci Code, this article contains the highly fallacious and dogmatic comment, "Relying on conjecture and methodological fallacies to re-interpret historical sources, the theory says that the Merovingians were the descendants of Jesus Christ; it is seen as popular pseudohistory by academic historians."
First, The Da Vinci Code is a Novel. The last time I checked novels are not History Books. Second, the ideas and hypotheses in Dan Brown's novel are NOT original to Dan Brown, nor are they original to Henry Lincoln et al in Holy Blood, Holy Grail. Third, what are these supposed "methodological fallacies" used??? It is more fallacious to think that Jesus was God incarnate, the divine Son of God incarnate, the child of an immaculate virgin and the Logos, that he performed miracles, healed the sick, raised the dead, died for the "sins" of humanity, was resurrected, and for some strange reason remained unmarried in an ancient, or modern for that matter, traditional Jewish culture, than it is to think that he was married to Mary the Magdalene and probably had at least one child. What separates "history" from "pseudohistory" anyway??? History is, and always has been, written by the "victors." Where is the hard empirical, historical, and/or "scientific" "evidence" that Jesus ever even existed at all?!?!?! In our presumptiously, self-righteous, and dogmatic modernity we hold ourselves and our "scientific" knowledges to be Absolutes and all other forms of knowledge to be 'fallacies' or "myths." Another problem is that "Myths" aren't "myths." We also mistakingly misuse words such as this. What historians have done, and are still doing, is find more and more "evidence" that humanity's "Myths" have more truth to them than some in our world would enjoy the humility to admit. No, that does not mean that Jesus was the son of God, nor Hercules or any other mythological character... What this does mean is that we do not know everything, (and surely the ancients knew much more than we do). Anyone who thinks, claims, or just implies that he/she knows all, is probably the person who knows the least. To be purely empirical one must question all; remain skeptical of all, and that includes our so-called "claims" to knowledge. Finally, {for people who are "hung up" over this whole idea on BOTH sides of the ARGUMENT}, - What exactly is the big deal whether or not Jesus and Mary the Magdalene had descendents?!?!?! Jesus was a man just like any other man. What he said or did, or didn't say or do would not, and does not have any special significance to any descendents. I (like many others I'm sure) am a descendent of many of these European kings and queens, I'm related to Robert E. Lee, I'm even a descendent of these Merovingians... What does that mean?... NOTHING! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Carlon ( talk • contribs) .
Holy cow. I have a lot of trouble taking people who use multiple punctuation for a single sentence seriously. S/he has one good point, though; both in general historical writing and in this article, there seems to me to be a lack of understanding of the distinction between accepted fact and actual fact--I would like to know how we came to know what we claim to know about the Merovingians, and if that information isn't available for this article, I'd like to see the facts denoted as conjectural, or strongly defensible (but not 100% certain), or whatever. I took a history of science course in which the professor discussed in detail some historical methods, and one of his broader points was that assembling a plausible story makes it very, very easy to create general acceptance of a theory which has only skeletal evidence--essentially, it's difficult to pick out omissions in between elements of a set of compatible accepted facts.
Anyway, I realise doing this in great detail would be both quite a bit of work, and make the article quite a bit more difficult to read--I'd still like to see at least a nod in the direction of 'how sure we are that this is what happened' and 'why we think that this is what happened'.
Another point that bothers me--the tone of this article is generally neutral, but occasionally steps off into emotional/judgmental language: "...but showed that dangerous vice of personal aggrandisement..." "...an exemplar of all that was not admirable in the dynasty." ...and so on.
Anyway--someone let me know if it would be considered offensive to just jump in and make a few structural changes? Because I don't really know that much about the Merovingians, but I'm generally a good writer and critical thinker. -- Penumbra 2k 13:42, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
But, but, but... 10 million book buyers CAN'T be wrong!! "History is just a lie agreed upon" "Science is just for smart people who know how to study". What about the rest of us?? We need to feel good too!! - Troll, 19:13, 22 May 2006 (UTC) —The preceding
unsigned comment was added by
129.198.241.67 (
talk •
contribs) .
Dan Brown gets his head everywhere these days please all do remember it is merley fiction book no ones having hokey pokey for the jesus dude dude out :) — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
89.242.32.254 (
talk)
05:34, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
Out of interest, I don't suppose anyone knows if there is a 'genuine' continuance of descent from the Merovingians (by genuine I mean "quite possibly flawed and inaccurate, but nonetheless well attested and official", since it is of course impossible to be 100% accurate over a period of 1000+ years)? I can't find any claims to descent from them other than the dubious 'Sigisbert IV' descent, and all I can find via google are reiterations of that and bizarre references to serpents... Michaelsanders 23:56, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
The articles at Gaul and Roman Gaul adequately demonstrate that most of the Merovingian realm corresponded to something that was called Gaul at some time or other. As to the use of "Low Countries, France, and Germany", why should we exclude Switzerland, for one? I just don't want the list to get excessively long. The Low Countries formed the centre of many Merovingian administrations, but their whole territory extended over much land which today is not part of those three. Also, they ruled many lands tributarily, like Bavaria, the Slavic lands, and part of northern Italy. "Frequently fluctuating" coverred all the problems, but somebody just had to add the Low Countries. Srnec 18:34, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Okay, "largely corresponding" is acceptable. I was under the impression that Low Countries covered all of BeNeLux. Tributary states are part of the realm. However, Northern Italy was not ruled by Merovingians for very long. Str1977 (smile back) 18:49, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
This is a nice long, thorough, detailed article, and I'm especially happy to see a historiography section. More articles should include that sort of thing. But, overall, this could probably afford to be longer. It's a pretty big topic, and a pretty important one, not only to French or Roman history, but to early medieval Europe as a whole. LordAmeth 00:00, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Someone in the recent slew of edits changed the term describing the form of Christianity to which Clovis converted from "Nicene" to "Catholic". I would respectfully suggest that this might not be the best wording. While catholicos was among the adjectives the mainstream church used to describe itself in 511, the term "Catholic" as a proper noun evokes to modern readers the modern Catholic Church, defined in opposition to the Eastern Orthodox and various protestant churches -- both schisms that had yet to happen in 511. The most important thing about Clovis' conversion was that he chose to adopt a faith based on the Nicene Creed, not the Arian beliefs (held by most other German Christians) that the Nicene Creed has been specifically formulated to exclude from heterodox Christian theology. -- Jfruh ( talk) 18:17, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
All over the Internet, and recently reverted here, are remarks about Merovingian red hair, derived from stuff like this: "Kenneth Grant and the Merovingian Mythos". No apology for reverting it is necessary, I imagine. But where do they get this stuff? -- Wetman 03:01, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
The recently added section on Merovingian sainthood (which I renamed to religion, though the section as it stands isn't quite that broad yet), states that a Merovingian was an "anointed king whose right to kingship was ratified by the worldly representatives of God himself." I am not sure about that. I am pretty certain that the only ceremony to a Merovingian's succession was his being raised on the shields of his warriors. I think that Pepin the Short's coronation was unique in that it involved an anointing. Also, I am not aware that the church took any real part in Merovingian successions. As far as I know, Merovings ruled by hereditary right, not divine right, and there is limited evidence that the Merovingians made much of any supposed pagan divine origin. Is there any source for the excised statement? Srnec 00:24, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Irish monks were influential on the Merovingian dynasty but the lands the Merovingian dynasty ruled were already at least as Christian as Ireland, before any missionary, Irish or otherwise, arrived. Clovis the first converted to Christianity in back 498AD long before any Irish missionary had even set foot in Britain let alone the realms of the Franks. He was converted by indigenous Christian monks. There were around 200 monasteries in France before Columbanus arrived from Ireland. Try reading the French Wikipedia article on Columbanus; I think that article puts the influence of Irish missionaries, like Columbanus, in much better and realistic context. The Merovingian dynasty right from the start was the main centre of Christianity in Western Europe, always far, far more influential than Ireland ever was! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.154.110.191 ( talk) 15:39, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Aren't Merovingians descendants of Wodan/Odin?~~09 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.86.230.114 ( talk) 14:29, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
In Norse sagas Frankish royal house of Völsungs are descendants of Odin. Maybe THis is about Merovingians and Merovingians=Völsungs. And Eliade says, Germanic kings usually were sacral persons as descendants of gods, especially of Wodan, and uses example of Merovingians. Quinotaur and other Graeco-Roman persons are innovations after christianization of Franks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.86.230.114 ( talk) 13:11, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
There is a contradiction between this article and Pepin I. Saint Ermelindis cannot at the same time live in the sixth century and descend from a person who is born in 580. (Theoretically she could, but I am sure that that is not what the author had in mind).-- Lieven Smits ( talk) 22:55, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
The result of the move request was moved to Merovingian dynasty Aervanath ( talk) 05:30, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
The plural form seems more when it's a group of people, as here. Is there any reason not to move to Merovingians? Angus McLellan (Talk) 23:27, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
Srnec, michaelsanders, I was wondering if one of Charlemagne's male ancestors married a Merovingian?-- Blood3 ( talk) 07:04, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
The author of a portion of this article seems to have labored under the misapprehension that hagiographies were (and are) ordinarily written for some purpose other than those described here, and under other literary forms. Rather, the "Merovignian hagiography" sounds absolutely typical of Christian hagiographies, particularly of the time, and almost sound as if they had been written after Byzantine models. If the cites sources also suffer from this error, they've made a mistake. In any event it comes across as odd that a characteristically Christian literary genre should be presented as characteristically Merovingian instead. 192.91.171.42 ( talk) 00:31, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
On the other hand, the idea that anyone conceived of the locale of saints' relics as harboring the "lingering life-force" of the saint is really odd as well, and I have to wonder if this isn't an editor's own interpretation of what the source says. It's certainly not historically Christian. 192.91.171.42 ( talk) 00:35, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
According to historian linguist Dr. Robert Duncan-Enzmann (iceagelanguage.com or enzmannstarship.com), the word Merovingian has the same root as the word Mermaid, mer meaning sea. Add rov as in roving or rover, therefore Merovingian would mean "those who rove (travel) the Sea." MichelleSnyderSymbologist ( talk) 20:17, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
i know it's not as glamorous as descending from sea monsters, trojans or jesus, but ptolemy is very clear that there was a tribe of south (west) germans called the marvingi that lived near the confluence of the rhine and the main, pretty much perfectly positioning them to jump the river with the rest of the franks. remember that frank is an inexact ethnic term that translates to "free" (meaning not roman) and refers to a coalition of german, celtic, slavic, iranian and other peoples rather than a specific german tribe. ptolemy may have mistaken germans for celts - he wouldn't be the first southern geographer to do so. further, the connection is vague; as i'm presenting it to you right now, it's not in any better shape than the cimmerian suggestion (cimmerian looks like cimbri looks like sicambri). so, i'm not suggesting that ptolemy's map proves that the merovingians were of the marvingi tribe. yet, the geographic and chronological positioning - combined with the very down to earth nature of the idea - is quite enticing. it's something i'd like to present is an idea that requires further research. specifically: can we trace the merovingians to the confluence of the main and the rhine? because, if we can, ptolemy has a very simple and rational answer for us. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.48.181.93 ( talk) 21:10, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
For an article entitled "Merovingian dynasty", it seems strange to have a rather complete listing of the Merovingian saints, but no listing of the actual kings of that dynasty. After all, the Merovingian dynasty consists of, and is defined as, a line of kings. This article doesn't answer the fundamental question a reader might ask, i.e. who were the Merovingians? Tresmegistus ( talk) 19:10, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
Starting with Clodian (428-448) Then Merovee (??) Childeric I (458-481) Clovis I (481-511) ???? Clotaire (Lothaire) (558-561) Chilperic I (561-584) Clotaire II (584-629) Dagobert (629-639) Sigebert III (639-?) Known as "les rois fainéants". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tresmegistus ( talk • contribs) 04:03, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
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It would be better to call the Merovingians the turban-headed kings. Seen far more likenesses of the aforesaid aweighed anext the one bit of stonework bearing a so-called Merovingian with long hair. Again, why did Merovingian-watchers in the past seem it fit to show them donned in turbans like jews and arabs of the time? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.5.237.140 ( talk) 17:21, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
Is it just me or do others also feel this map really maximizes the size of Austrasia, in a way which probably makes it a bit non typical? I do not doubt it comes from a publication, but is it really a map which represents a consensus? I would think for example that Roman Belgica II might have been part of Neustria? See the maps in Ian Woods for example.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 13:33, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
Actually the Franks were Christians before the Romans were, but they were not Catholics. The monks referred to are Catholic monks who were trying to convert the Christians of the area to become Catholics.
There is something wrong with this map in the important Austrasian map. Austrasia is bulging westwards in the south almost touching Paris, but too narrow in the north. There is a major river south of the Rhine which is presumably meant to be the Maas, but the shape and position of it is entirely wrong.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 08:16, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
@ Srnec:, @ Andrew Lancaster:, @ Agricolae:: Well, alright. Why is them being considered Salians filtered completely out of this article? The EB source prominently mentions it twice, saying Merovech was one of the first kings of the Salian Franks and that Gaul was conquered by the Salian Franks. The current EB article says the following:
The name Merovingian derives from that of Merovech, of whom nothing is known except that he was the father of Childeric I, who ruled a tribe of Salian Franks from his capital at Tournai. Childeric was succeeded by his son Clovis I in 481 or 482. Clovis I extended his rule over all the Salian Franks, conquered or annexed the territories of the Ripuarian Franks and the Alemanni, and united nearly all of Gaul except for Burgundy and what is now Provence.
The reverts mention 'specific' issues with the two insertions, but it's pretty clear that opinions are against having them mentioned in the article as much as possible. While I understand why it was done from Andrew Lancaser's edit summaries, it does feel like an insertion of personal opinion to selectively ignore the references to them in the sources rather than disputing them with other sources in the article. Prinsgezinde ( talk) 10:15, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
"They first appear as 'Kings of the Franks' in the Roman army of northern Gaul". I would never have got that from EB, but it is for example explained by Halsall and other historians of that period. Perhaps I slipped it into the lead without making sure it was in the body.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 13:43, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
(p.28) In der Folgezeit fehlt dann - wie Springer zu Recht betont - jeder weitere Beleg in der Geschichtsschreibung der Merowingerzeit. Das gilt aber für andere fränkische Teilvölker wie die Chamaven und die Chattuarier. Insofern dürften die Salii als ethnischer Name doch zu retten sein.
I've reinstated my mod from 10 June 2020, which User:Srnec had reverted, and here's why I've done so.
In discussions of words—contrasted with uses of those words—it's standard typographical practice to indicate the distinction by setting the words being discussed in italics. That's why I had edited the first sentence of the article's second paragraph from
to
And that edit conforms precisely to MOS:WORDSASWORDS.
It's hard to be sure from his edit summary what Srnec's concern was, but I think his point was that foreign-language terms were already appearing in that sentence in italics. So perhaps he saw this situation as an appropriate one for the style manual's alternative approach, which is to set off the word in double quotes. But that interpretation is a misreading of the style manual, because although the sentence's already-italicized words are indeed non-English, it is not their non-Englishness that justifies their italicization. The reason that they belong in italics is that in this context they, too, are being discussed rather than used. The style manual's proposed alternative to italics is intended for things like
PaulTanenbaum ( talk) 15:50, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
Andrew Lancaster, I agree with your interpretation of the MOS, which was what I'd intended to show by my joie de vivre example. And the way you've worded your comment helps make my point because in this context the article is not "using foreign language bits in italics," it's mentioning those bits. Maybe I make my point clearer if I describe the purpose that that sentence fulfills in the article, which is to describe how the name (i.e., proper noun) Merovingian originates from earlier proper names. And in that sentence about names, each name is set in italics.
Srnec, check out this guidance from MOS:FOREIGNITALIC: "A proper name is usually not italicized when it is used, but it may be italicized when the name itself is being referred to, for example, in the lead when the foreign name is included in parentheses after the English name; e.g.: Nuremberg ( German: Nürnberg). See § Words as words, above."
So it really, truly isn't their non-Englishness that justifies their italicization, but the fact that in each case—medieval Latin, Frankish, and Old English—"the name itself is being referred to." And here's a stab at answering your question about how I distinguish between foreign words that are being mentioned and those that are not. Check out this example:
That passage is not at all about words or language. Instead, it is about feelings, so every word in the passage—foreign or English—is being not mentioned, but used.— PaulTanenbaum ( talk) 13:52, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
"Wikipedia uses italics for phrases in other languages and for isolated foreign words that do not yet have everyday use in non-specialized English. Use the native spellings if they use the Latin alphabet (with or without diacritics)—otherwise anglicize their spelling.
"Loanwords or phrases that have been assimilated into and have common use in English, such as praetor, Gestapo, samurai, esprit de corps, e.g., i.e., etc., do not require italicization."" So obviously other foreign words do.
Yes, Andrew Lancaster, absolutely, 100%, "other foreign words do" require italicization. When we use "phrases in other languages and ... isolated foreign words that do not yet have everyday use in non-specialized English," we do set them in italics. But that practice is not relevant to the paragraph about the origins of Merovingian because the latter does not use "phrases in other languages [or] isolated foreign words," it mentions them.
Anyway, rather than talk myself into further circles, I've come up with a simple tweak that entirely sidesteps whatever disagreements we may have and thus may, Deo volente, satisfy all three of us. What say we edit the sentence at issue to begin, "The dynasty's Modern English name comes from ..."
Wow, Agricolae, I'm impressed at the absolute assertion—offered without substantiation—that the use-mention distinction is a "false" one, or anyway that a word's foreignness somehow makes the distinction go away. Tell that to the linguists, analytic philosophers, and logicians in the room. Or at least to those who maintain Wikipedia's own manual of style.
Nor, Andrew Lancaster do I see what you might mean by your assertion that the sentence "has no foreign words."
Look, I think anyone would agree that this has become a tempest in a чайник, even those who might confuse 6-letter Russian nouns with vessels for brewing and serving hot beverages. But why, I wonder, such strong aversion to my several suggested ways to avoid a (no doubt minor) violation of a widespread typographical convention?— PaulTanenbaum ( talk) 16:16, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
Absolutely vanishing returns in any futher beating of this long-dead horse. I understand your view. Fwiw, from my perspective, the "simplest and best" idea is to return to the status quo ante of quotes. But hey, y'all do what y'all are gonna do; I can't muster any further investment in the matter.— PaulTanenbaum ( talk) 17:30, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
Several sections of this article (as of time of writing, Feb 2024) appear to be rather lacking in citations. For example, the subsections "History -> Reunification of the kingdom" and "History -> Return to power" carry no citations at all, and others (f.ex. the summary/intro for the "History" section) say a great deal but cite very little. 192.88.140.10 ( talk) 23:04, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
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"in order to gain power through the "spiritual" dynasty of Peter instead of the "holy blood" (i.e. Sangreal) of Mary Magdalene's descendants."
Peter? Don't you mean Paul?
Although I haven't read the book in question, If the "Roman Church" did anything to enhance a spiritual dynasty it would be the dynasy of Peter, not Paul. They RC church claims Peter as the 1st Pope and claims the the Bishop of Rome is Peter's heir and has inherited the authority given to Peter by Christ. ("On this Rock...).
Dsmdgold 02:30, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Just wondering, but should we really have the entirely dubious pseudo-history of this book in what is otherwise a sensible article about a Frankish dynasty? Why not just say something like "The Merovingian dynasty is at the center of the esoteric history of bla bla blas' book Holy Blood, Holy Grail," and then discuss the rest of the theory in an article on the book. Given that absolutely no actual historians give any credence whatsoever to these nonsensical theories (whatever the fact that they are used in The Da Vinci Code), I don't think these theories ought to be written about in any detail on this page. john 05:47, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Oh, does that mean that Bram Stoker's book "Dracula" should not be mentioned on the article about Vlad Tepes, either? If it involves them, it should still be involved. Simply add a precautionary statement about how the book should be taken with a grain of salt. That's all. It involves them, and whether you like it or not, the book itself IS part of our history, so therefore it's real enough. The fact that it gives mention to them is enough to add it here, just as Nicholas Flamel is mentioned in Harry Potter. And yes, I am aware that I am using fictional books for examples, but I can't think of anything else for this situation. MasterXiam 18:37, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
I think the major deciding factor is to the centrality of the information. This article is (at present) strongly coupled to the dynastic history of the Merovingians, and it makes a very good and easy to read article in that form; adding cross-references of various types to the bottom of the article is a good idea, but diluting the content with information which isn't really related to the general theme of the content is probably not a good idea.
Having said that, I think the Magdalene descent issue is probably close enough to the subject matter to deserve a short paragraph, with appropriate disclaimers and cross-referencing, near the end.
I'm of the mind that when the article's content starts to become diluted, it needs to be renamed and/or disambiguated--maybe this information should be renamed 'merovingian dynasty' or something of the sort? -- Penumbra 2k 13:12, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Certainly (at the highest level of certainty a human being can have)the merovigians are not descendants of Christ or Mary Magdalene, but my question is, what did people at the time believed? Was at any century a sect that professed such ideas?
I moved the text on the Matrix character the Merovingian to a separate article. It really doesn't belong in an article about the historical Merovingian dynasty. Will create disambiguation page shortly. McMullen
The article currently contains this text:
"Clovis on his death partitioned his kingdom among his four sons according to Frankish custom. Over the next two centuries, this tradition would continue; however, accidents of fertility would ensure that occasionally the whole realm would be reunited under a single king; and even when multiple Merovingian kings ruled, the kingdom was conceived of as a single realm ruled collectively by several kings. In this way, the Frankish Kingdom resembled the later Roman Empire."
Someone recently changed "Roman Empire" to "Holy Roman Empire". This is incorrect. The later Roman Empire was frequently ruled by multiple emperors, though they were conceived of as a college of rulers over a single realm -- and in this way (though not in all that many others), the Merovingian realm was like the later Roman Empire. The Holy Roman Empire, however, was always ruled over by a single emperor -- there was never a situation in which there were multiple Holy Roman Emperors. Even when the later Carolinians divided up Charlemagne's empire, there was alwyas only one emperor.
-- Jfruh 22:57, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I just changed "later Roman Empire" to "earlier Roman Empire", because the Roman Empire was indeed earlier. However, this sentence originally stated "later Holy Roman Empire". I think the change to delete "Holy" was incorrect. So one may want to make that change, I'm not certain enough to do it. However, it clearly should either be "earlier Roman Empire" or "later Holy Roman Empire".
"THERE WAS ALWAYS ONLY ONE EMPEROR": I thought that there were times when there was no Emperor?
Actually, that's not really true. There countless examples of more than one Emperor, ever since Diocletian and before and after. Str1977 2 July 2005 02:45 (UTC)
Yes, you're right. And in the Roman Empire, if there were several emperors/caesars there was always one who was supreme, e.g. Marcus Aurelius over Verus, Diocletian over the other three rulers and even after his resignation, and in the 5th century usually the Eastern Emperor. That was also the basis of the agreement between Charlemagne and Emperor Michael, though they didn't say so explicitely.
In the early Frankish kingdom (511-613) there was no clear cut "primus", as they division was more of a division of revenue and administration and not actually a permanent separating (of course later, helped by all these divisions, regional identities developed). After 613 however, there always was some primacy of Neustria over Austrasia. After the kingdoms returned to having just one king, he resided in Neustria. This primacy also shows in the development of Neustria adopting the name Francia which subsequently ended up as France.
In the German kingdom as part of the HRE there was only one king (except for Bohemia, of course) and for a long time, the heir could only be elected king of the Romans if his father was Emperor. In legal fiction, the son then would be the king of Germany while his father was Emperor. In reality, the father retained the rule, as is best seen in Frederick II and Henry (VII).
So in the HRE there was only one Emperor at a time (rival claims notwithstanding) - the two-Emperor problem relates to the relations with the Eastern Empire. The basis is not so much the existence of more than one Emperor but the supremacy of one over the other (Rome the city vs. the historical continuity of the Eastern Empire). Str1977 08:55, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
This article was cited in "Secrets of the Code: The Unauthorized Guide to Mysteries Behind the Da Vinci Code" by Dan Burstein p. 365 HC 1st Edition 2004, as some of you may know. But anyone reading the book's mention of wikipedia could never find the quote unless they searched way back to [1] in the history. I believe this to be a flaw in wikipedia only because a vanishing source of information is unreliable and self-defeating. If the editors of the publication include wiki as source, the curious reader should have easy access. We tend to forget our freedom to edit over and over these articles seems to invalidate a printed source. If this makes sense, could you add some link to the history page listed above? On the lighter side, from the Twins in Matrix Reloaded: we are getting aggravated, aren't we? yes we are. BF 18:18, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
What about the West African People who to this day still have customes that mirror Hebrew customes but yet there is no mention of this fact,could they be directly decsended by blood from the original hebrews. A fact that is often overlooked is that after the fall of Israel,Hebrews migrated in great numbers to West Africa and along the East African Coast but I read no mention of them. In scipture the trials of the Hebrew People are written in detail, from slavery the loss of identity, children, homeland, culture,religion etc. It is my belief that these scriptures only apply the people known today as African Americans..not the French/Franks User: 205.142.197.75 07:24, 30 May 2005
That the Merovingians in general lacked a sense of res publica is a fable derived from 19th century historiography. Some of course put their own whims first, but others clearly had a sense of res publica. Otherwise this entity would not have survived. This is why I deleted the phrase and this is why I will delete it again. Str1977 18:16, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
... For anyone else, I recommend Michel Rouche, "Private life conquers State and Society" in Paul Veyne, A History of Private Life: 1. From Pagan Rome to Byzantium. ... -- Wetman 15:57, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Wetman, I removed your personal attacks and wrong potrayal of me. I know perfectly well what res publica means and what the Merovingians are all about. I know and have posted before that this take on the M. was discussed by scholars, but this was an oversimplification. You point to a book, I can do the same. Read the Karl Ferdinand Werner's first volume of the History of France. Str1977 08:19, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
Ok, now I understand the basis for your (still wrong accusations): I reverted an edit of yours back to what you criticized. But my opposition was purely against the word "legendary", as the conversion was not legendary (in the popular sense of the term) but a real historical event. I should not have simply reverted back to the previous version, which indeed was dodgy (click [ [2]] to see the original intrusion of what you criticized. That was before I ever entered this article).
I have also reinserted your "lack of sense of res publica" phrase but also given the counter point. After all, the oversimplification was held by historians and hence it is not unencyclopedic. Str1977 08:42, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
My source talks about res publica as well. I think the real issue here is not that they "lacked" in anything, they simply prefered another way of looking at things. If your going to word it in such a way that its controversial, then you will need to expand on it and discuss the historiographical issues, otherwise it make no sense. Stbalbach 12:53, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
That'd extend the limitations of wikipedia. It's not that they "prefered another way of looking at things" - that's just saying the same in post-modern idiom (i.e. "non-judgemental"). It's that under the circumstances of the time they "organized" the administration of their part of the res publica differently than other times did. Str1977 13:08, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
It would extended the limitations of Wikipedia? Please explain. If they organized the administration of their part of the res publica differently than other times did then say that in the article and provide sources instead of "some historians" weasel terms. Stbalbach 13:45, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
I already mentioned K.F. Werner. Str1977 15:50, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
You know, being in the apparently very small minority of people who haven't read the Da Vinci Code, I've just now learned its central premise (SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER), apparently cribbed from Holy Blood, Holy Grail, that the Merovingians were descended from Jesus and Mary Magdalen. Which explains a lot of the activity on this page that has been so baffling to me. Now of course the connection is complete nonsense, but since the Merovingians are a fairly obscure topic and the DVC is a very popular book, a lot of people might be wandering over here based on what they read in the DVC. (There's actually a link from The Da Vinci Code over to here.) With that in mind, should we perhaps make a brief section at the end that takes on the claims of this book in more detail and presents the accepted scholarly reasons for why its bunk? -- Jfruh 18:42, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
Incompetent fingerpainting will not be good enough at this article. I have had to revert recent woolly blather:
... what part of the speedy deletion policy were you invoking when you deleted List of Presidential gaffes? I noticed this on recent changes, found it quite amusing and was looking for it again to add to it and discovered it deleted. You are aware that you should have sent this to AfD? I have undeleted. I'm about to post this to WP:AN/I. - Ta bu shi da yu 13:49, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
The references to Belgium were removed because to include it leaves the question of why the Netherlands, Luxembourg, and Switzerland are not also included. The fact is that all these nations are essentially historical breakaways from a larger French or German state, thus, they are coverred by the understanding that, in this historical context, France and Germany are not used to mean the states exactly as they are today. Furthermore, they are themselves largely the descendants of Merovingian polities and the term "frequently fluctuating" is added to make sure the idea that the borders of the Merovingian realm do not correspond even roughtly to those of any extant modern nation. Srnec 20:05, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Hmm. I disagree. The introduction as it is is, I think, misleading - it says that the area fluctuated in modern France and Germany without mentioning lands outside modern France and Germany (which I don't think are 'essentially historical breakaways from a larger French or German state'). There should also maybe be mention that the Merovingian lands are weighted more to modern France than modern Germany. 165.165.200.199 21:38, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Idea on a loosely related note: A blank map of Europe showing dashed lines for semi-modern borders, and solid lines for the understood borders of the Merovingians' domains. -- Penumbra 2k 13:29, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
In regard to The Da Vinci Code, this article contains the highly fallacious and dogmatic comment, "Relying on conjecture and methodological fallacies to re-interpret historical sources, the theory says that the Merovingians were the descendants of Jesus Christ; it is seen as popular pseudohistory by academic historians."
First, The Da Vinci Code is a Novel. The last time I checked novels are not History Books. Second, the ideas and hypotheses in Dan Brown's novel are NOT original to Dan Brown, nor are they original to Henry Lincoln et al in Holy Blood, Holy Grail. Third, what are these supposed "methodological fallacies" used??? It is more fallacious to think that Jesus was God incarnate, the divine Son of God incarnate, the child of an immaculate virgin and the Logos, that he performed miracles, healed the sick, raised the dead, died for the "sins" of humanity, was resurrected, and for some strange reason remained unmarried in an ancient, or modern for that matter, traditional Jewish culture, than it is to think that he was married to Mary the Magdalene and probably had at least one child. What separates "history" from "pseudohistory" anyway??? History is, and always has been, written by the "victors." Where is the hard empirical, historical, and/or "scientific" "evidence" that Jesus ever even existed at all?!?!?! In our presumptiously, self-righteous, and dogmatic modernity we hold ourselves and our "scientific" knowledges to be Absolutes and all other forms of knowledge to be 'fallacies' or "myths." Another problem is that "Myths" aren't "myths." We also mistakingly misuse words such as this. What historians have done, and are still doing, is find more and more "evidence" that humanity's "Myths" have more truth to them than some in our world would enjoy the humility to admit. No, that does not mean that Jesus was the son of God, nor Hercules or any other mythological character... What this does mean is that we do not know everything, (and surely the ancients knew much more than we do). Anyone who thinks, claims, or just implies that he/she knows all, is probably the person who knows the least. To be purely empirical one must question all; remain skeptical of all, and that includes our so-called "claims" to knowledge. Finally, {for people who are "hung up" over this whole idea on BOTH sides of the ARGUMENT}, - What exactly is the big deal whether or not Jesus and Mary the Magdalene had descendents?!?!?! Jesus was a man just like any other man. What he said or did, or didn't say or do would not, and does not have any special significance to any descendents. I (like many others I'm sure) am a descendent of many of these European kings and queens, I'm related to Robert E. Lee, I'm even a descendent of these Merovingians... What does that mean?... NOTHING! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Carlon ( talk • contribs) .
Holy cow. I have a lot of trouble taking people who use multiple punctuation for a single sentence seriously. S/he has one good point, though; both in general historical writing and in this article, there seems to me to be a lack of understanding of the distinction between accepted fact and actual fact--I would like to know how we came to know what we claim to know about the Merovingians, and if that information isn't available for this article, I'd like to see the facts denoted as conjectural, or strongly defensible (but not 100% certain), or whatever. I took a history of science course in which the professor discussed in detail some historical methods, and one of his broader points was that assembling a plausible story makes it very, very easy to create general acceptance of a theory which has only skeletal evidence--essentially, it's difficult to pick out omissions in between elements of a set of compatible accepted facts.
Anyway, I realise doing this in great detail would be both quite a bit of work, and make the article quite a bit more difficult to read--I'd still like to see at least a nod in the direction of 'how sure we are that this is what happened' and 'why we think that this is what happened'.
Another point that bothers me--the tone of this article is generally neutral, but occasionally steps off into emotional/judgmental language: "...but showed that dangerous vice of personal aggrandisement..." "...an exemplar of all that was not admirable in the dynasty." ...and so on.
Anyway--someone let me know if it would be considered offensive to just jump in and make a few structural changes? Because I don't really know that much about the Merovingians, but I'm generally a good writer and critical thinker. -- Penumbra 2k 13:42, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
But, but, but... 10 million book buyers CAN'T be wrong!! "History is just a lie agreed upon" "Science is just for smart people who know how to study". What about the rest of us?? We need to feel good too!! - Troll, 19:13, 22 May 2006 (UTC) —The preceding
unsigned comment was added by
129.198.241.67 (
talk •
contribs) .
Dan Brown gets his head everywhere these days please all do remember it is merley fiction book no ones having hokey pokey for the jesus dude dude out :) — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
89.242.32.254 (
talk)
05:34, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
Out of interest, I don't suppose anyone knows if there is a 'genuine' continuance of descent from the Merovingians (by genuine I mean "quite possibly flawed and inaccurate, but nonetheless well attested and official", since it is of course impossible to be 100% accurate over a period of 1000+ years)? I can't find any claims to descent from them other than the dubious 'Sigisbert IV' descent, and all I can find via google are reiterations of that and bizarre references to serpents... Michaelsanders 23:56, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
The articles at Gaul and Roman Gaul adequately demonstrate that most of the Merovingian realm corresponded to something that was called Gaul at some time or other. As to the use of "Low Countries, France, and Germany", why should we exclude Switzerland, for one? I just don't want the list to get excessively long. The Low Countries formed the centre of many Merovingian administrations, but their whole territory extended over much land which today is not part of those three. Also, they ruled many lands tributarily, like Bavaria, the Slavic lands, and part of northern Italy. "Frequently fluctuating" coverred all the problems, but somebody just had to add the Low Countries. Srnec 18:34, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Okay, "largely corresponding" is acceptable. I was under the impression that Low Countries covered all of BeNeLux. Tributary states are part of the realm. However, Northern Italy was not ruled by Merovingians for very long. Str1977 (smile back) 18:49, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
This is a nice long, thorough, detailed article, and I'm especially happy to see a historiography section. More articles should include that sort of thing. But, overall, this could probably afford to be longer. It's a pretty big topic, and a pretty important one, not only to French or Roman history, but to early medieval Europe as a whole. LordAmeth 00:00, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Someone in the recent slew of edits changed the term describing the form of Christianity to which Clovis converted from "Nicene" to "Catholic". I would respectfully suggest that this might not be the best wording. While catholicos was among the adjectives the mainstream church used to describe itself in 511, the term "Catholic" as a proper noun evokes to modern readers the modern Catholic Church, defined in opposition to the Eastern Orthodox and various protestant churches -- both schisms that had yet to happen in 511. The most important thing about Clovis' conversion was that he chose to adopt a faith based on the Nicene Creed, not the Arian beliefs (held by most other German Christians) that the Nicene Creed has been specifically formulated to exclude from heterodox Christian theology. -- Jfruh ( talk) 18:17, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
All over the Internet, and recently reverted here, are remarks about Merovingian red hair, derived from stuff like this: "Kenneth Grant and the Merovingian Mythos". No apology for reverting it is necessary, I imagine. But where do they get this stuff? -- Wetman 03:01, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
The recently added section on Merovingian sainthood (which I renamed to religion, though the section as it stands isn't quite that broad yet), states that a Merovingian was an "anointed king whose right to kingship was ratified by the worldly representatives of God himself." I am not sure about that. I am pretty certain that the only ceremony to a Merovingian's succession was his being raised on the shields of his warriors. I think that Pepin the Short's coronation was unique in that it involved an anointing. Also, I am not aware that the church took any real part in Merovingian successions. As far as I know, Merovings ruled by hereditary right, not divine right, and there is limited evidence that the Merovingians made much of any supposed pagan divine origin. Is there any source for the excised statement? Srnec 00:24, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Irish monks were influential on the Merovingian dynasty but the lands the Merovingian dynasty ruled were already at least as Christian as Ireland, before any missionary, Irish or otherwise, arrived. Clovis the first converted to Christianity in back 498AD long before any Irish missionary had even set foot in Britain let alone the realms of the Franks. He was converted by indigenous Christian monks. There were around 200 monasteries in France before Columbanus arrived from Ireland. Try reading the French Wikipedia article on Columbanus; I think that article puts the influence of Irish missionaries, like Columbanus, in much better and realistic context. The Merovingian dynasty right from the start was the main centre of Christianity in Western Europe, always far, far more influential than Ireland ever was! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.154.110.191 ( talk) 15:39, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Aren't Merovingians descendants of Wodan/Odin?~~09 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.86.230.114 ( talk) 14:29, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
In Norse sagas Frankish royal house of Völsungs are descendants of Odin. Maybe THis is about Merovingians and Merovingians=Völsungs. And Eliade says, Germanic kings usually were sacral persons as descendants of gods, especially of Wodan, and uses example of Merovingians. Quinotaur and other Graeco-Roman persons are innovations after christianization of Franks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.86.230.114 ( talk) 13:11, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
There is a contradiction between this article and Pepin I. Saint Ermelindis cannot at the same time live in the sixth century and descend from a person who is born in 580. (Theoretically she could, but I am sure that that is not what the author had in mind).-- Lieven Smits ( talk) 22:55, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
The result of the move request was moved to Merovingian dynasty Aervanath ( talk) 05:30, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
The plural form seems more when it's a group of people, as here. Is there any reason not to move to Merovingians? Angus McLellan (Talk) 23:27, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
Srnec, michaelsanders, I was wondering if one of Charlemagne's male ancestors married a Merovingian?-- Blood3 ( talk) 07:04, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
The author of a portion of this article seems to have labored under the misapprehension that hagiographies were (and are) ordinarily written for some purpose other than those described here, and under other literary forms. Rather, the "Merovignian hagiography" sounds absolutely typical of Christian hagiographies, particularly of the time, and almost sound as if they had been written after Byzantine models. If the cites sources also suffer from this error, they've made a mistake. In any event it comes across as odd that a characteristically Christian literary genre should be presented as characteristically Merovingian instead. 192.91.171.42 ( talk) 00:31, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
On the other hand, the idea that anyone conceived of the locale of saints' relics as harboring the "lingering life-force" of the saint is really odd as well, and I have to wonder if this isn't an editor's own interpretation of what the source says. It's certainly not historically Christian. 192.91.171.42 ( talk) 00:35, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
According to historian linguist Dr. Robert Duncan-Enzmann (iceagelanguage.com or enzmannstarship.com), the word Merovingian has the same root as the word Mermaid, mer meaning sea. Add rov as in roving or rover, therefore Merovingian would mean "those who rove (travel) the Sea." MichelleSnyderSymbologist ( talk) 20:17, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
i know it's not as glamorous as descending from sea monsters, trojans or jesus, but ptolemy is very clear that there was a tribe of south (west) germans called the marvingi that lived near the confluence of the rhine and the main, pretty much perfectly positioning them to jump the river with the rest of the franks. remember that frank is an inexact ethnic term that translates to "free" (meaning not roman) and refers to a coalition of german, celtic, slavic, iranian and other peoples rather than a specific german tribe. ptolemy may have mistaken germans for celts - he wouldn't be the first southern geographer to do so. further, the connection is vague; as i'm presenting it to you right now, it's not in any better shape than the cimmerian suggestion (cimmerian looks like cimbri looks like sicambri). so, i'm not suggesting that ptolemy's map proves that the merovingians were of the marvingi tribe. yet, the geographic and chronological positioning - combined with the very down to earth nature of the idea - is quite enticing. it's something i'd like to present is an idea that requires further research. specifically: can we trace the merovingians to the confluence of the main and the rhine? because, if we can, ptolemy has a very simple and rational answer for us. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.48.181.93 ( talk) 21:10, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
For an article entitled "Merovingian dynasty", it seems strange to have a rather complete listing of the Merovingian saints, but no listing of the actual kings of that dynasty. After all, the Merovingian dynasty consists of, and is defined as, a line of kings. This article doesn't answer the fundamental question a reader might ask, i.e. who were the Merovingians? Tresmegistus ( talk) 19:10, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
Starting with Clodian (428-448) Then Merovee (??) Childeric I (458-481) Clovis I (481-511) ???? Clotaire (Lothaire) (558-561) Chilperic I (561-584) Clotaire II (584-629) Dagobert (629-639) Sigebert III (639-?) Known as "les rois fainéants". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tresmegistus ( talk • contribs) 04:03, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
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It would be better to call the Merovingians the turban-headed kings. Seen far more likenesses of the aforesaid aweighed anext the one bit of stonework bearing a so-called Merovingian with long hair. Again, why did Merovingian-watchers in the past seem it fit to show them donned in turbans like jews and arabs of the time? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.5.237.140 ( talk) 17:21, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
Is it just me or do others also feel this map really maximizes the size of Austrasia, in a way which probably makes it a bit non typical? I do not doubt it comes from a publication, but is it really a map which represents a consensus? I would think for example that Roman Belgica II might have been part of Neustria? See the maps in Ian Woods for example.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 13:33, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
Actually the Franks were Christians before the Romans were, but they were not Catholics. The monks referred to are Catholic monks who were trying to convert the Christians of the area to become Catholics.
There is something wrong with this map in the important Austrasian map. Austrasia is bulging westwards in the south almost touching Paris, but too narrow in the north. There is a major river south of the Rhine which is presumably meant to be the Maas, but the shape and position of it is entirely wrong.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 08:16, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
@ Srnec:, @ Andrew Lancaster:, @ Agricolae:: Well, alright. Why is them being considered Salians filtered completely out of this article? The EB source prominently mentions it twice, saying Merovech was one of the first kings of the Salian Franks and that Gaul was conquered by the Salian Franks. The current EB article says the following:
The name Merovingian derives from that of Merovech, of whom nothing is known except that he was the father of Childeric I, who ruled a tribe of Salian Franks from his capital at Tournai. Childeric was succeeded by his son Clovis I in 481 or 482. Clovis I extended his rule over all the Salian Franks, conquered or annexed the territories of the Ripuarian Franks and the Alemanni, and united nearly all of Gaul except for Burgundy and what is now Provence.
The reverts mention 'specific' issues with the two insertions, but it's pretty clear that opinions are against having them mentioned in the article as much as possible. While I understand why it was done from Andrew Lancaser's edit summaries, it does feel like an insertion of personal opinion to selectively ignore the references to them in the sources rather than disputing them with other sources in the article. Prinsgezinde ( talk) 10:15, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
"They first appear as 'Kings of the Franks' in the Roman army of northern Gaul". I would never have got that from EB, but it is for example explained by Halsall and other historians of that period. Perhaps I slipped it into the lead without making sure it was in the body.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 13:43, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
(p.28) In der Folgezeit fehlt dann - wie Springer zu Recht betont - jeder weitere Beleg in der Geschichtsschreibung der Merowingerzeit. Das gilt aber für andere fränkische Teilvölker wie die Chamaven und die Chattuarier. Insofern dürften die Salii als ethnischer Name doch zu retten sein.
I've reinstated my mod from 10 June 2020, which User:Srnec had reverted, and here's why I've done so.
In discussions of words—contrasted with uses of those words—it's standard typographical practice to indicate the distinction by setting the words being discussed in italics. That's why I had edited the first sentence of the article's second paragraph from
to
And that edit conforms precisely to MOS:WORDSASWORDS.
It's hard to be sure from his edit summary what Srnec's concern was, but I think his point was that foreign-language terms were already appearing in that sentence in italics. So perhaps he saw this situation as an appropriate one for the style manual's alternative approach, which is to set off the word in double quotes. But that interpretation is a misreading of the style manual, because although the sentence's already-italicized words are indeed non-English, it is not their non-Englishness that justifies their italicization. The reason that they belong in italics is that in this context they, too, are being discussed rather than used. The style manual's proposed alternative to italics is intended for things like
PaulTanenbaum ( talk) 15:50, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
Andrew Lancaster, I agree with your interpretation of the MOS, which was what I'd intended to show by my joie de vivre example. And the way you've worded your comment helps make my point because in this context the article is not "using foreign language bits in italics," it's mentioning those bits. Maybe I make my point clearer if I describe the purpose that that sentence fulfills in the article, which is to describe how the name (i.e., proper noun) Merovingian originates from earlier proper names. And in that sentence about names, each name is set in italics.
Srnec, check out this guidance from MOS:FOREIGNITALIC: "A proper name is usually not italicized when it is used, but it may be italicized when the name itself is being referred to, for example, in the lead when the foreign name is included in parentheses after the English name; e.g.: Nuremberg ( German: Nürnberg). See § Words as words, above."
So it really, truly isn't their non-Englishness that justifies their italicization, but the fact that in each case—medieval Latin, Frankish, and Old English—"the name itself is being referred to." And here's a stab at answering your question about how I distinguish between foreign words that are being mentioned and those that are not. Check out this example:
That passage is not at all about words or language. Instead, it is about feelings, so every word in the passage—foreign or English—is being not mentioned, but used.— PaulTanenbaum ( talk) 13:52, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
"Wikipedia uses italics for phrases in other languages and for isolated foreign words that do not yet have everyday use in non-specialized English. Use the native spellings if they use the Latin alphabet (with or without diacritics)—otherwise anglicize their spelling.
"Loanwords or phrases that have been assimilated into and have common use in English, such as praetor, Gestapo, samurai, esprit de corps, e.g., i.e., etc., do not require italicization."" So obviously other foreign words do.
Yes, Andrew Lancaster, absolutely, 100%, "other foreign words do" require italicization. When we use "phrases in other languages and ... isolated foreign words that do not yet have everyday use in non-specialized English," we do set them in italics. But that practice is not relevant to the paragraph about the origins of Merovingian because the latter does not use "phrases in other languages [or] isolated foreign words," it mentions them.
Anyway, rather than talk myself into further circles, I've come up with a simple tweak that entirely sidesteps whatever disagreements we may have and thus may, Deo volente, satisfy all three of us. What say we edit the sentence at issue to begin, "The dynasty's Modern English name comes from ..."
Wow, Agricolae, I'm impressed at the absolute assertion—offered without substantiation—that the use-mention distinction is a "false" one, or anyway that a word's foreignness somehow makes the distinction go away. Tell that to the linguists, analytic philosophers, and logicians in the room. Or at least to those who maintain Wikipedia's own manual of style.
Nor, Andrew Lancaster do I see what you might mean by your assertion that the sentence "has no foreign words."
Look, I think anyone would agree that this has become a tempest in a чайник, even those who might confuse 6-letter Russian nouns with vessels for brewing and serving hot beverages. But why, I wonder, such strong aversion to my several suggested ways to avoid a (no doubt minor) violation of a widespread typographical convention?— PaulTanenbaum ( talk) 16:16, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
Absolutely vanishing returns in any futher beating of this long-dead horse. I understand your view. Fwiw, from my perspective, the "simplest and best" idea is to return to the status quo ante of quotes. But hey, y'all do what y'all are gonna do; I can't muster any further investment in the matter.— PaulTanenbaum ( talk) 17:30, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
Several sections of this article (as of time of writing, Feb 2024) appear to be rather lacking in citations. For example, the subsections "History -> Reunification of the kingdom" and "History -> Return to power" carry no citations at all, and others (f.ex. the summary/intro for the "History" section) say a great deal but cite very little. 192.88.140.10 ( talk) 23:04, 5 February 2024 (UTC)