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Charles Hingham has been revealed more than once to be a fabricator if not downright liar for more than four decades. Using one of his "biographies" (other than the one on Katharine Hepburn which was authorized) reflects badly on Wikipedia. I suggest anything attributed to Hingham not backed up by another source (and not one that is drawing on this Wiki article or Hingman) be removed. Montju ( talk) 14:43, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
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The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Yamara 14:09, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 18:45, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
No mention of this widely alleged (and almost certainly true) affair? (See www.throneout.com/images/royal_affairs.pdf) 89.243.106.208 ( talk) 09:55, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
The first line of the article states Miss Oberon's birth name as Estelle Merle Oberon. Immediately to the right of the article in the infomation box under her picture, it states her birth name as Estelle Merle O'Brien Thompson. Which is it? Not very encyclopedic, I must say, but typical Wikipedia none-the-less. 65.69.81.2 ( talk) 20:34, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I removed the '15-years-old' as it was sounding ridiculous. However, I assume that the intended meaning was probably to say that when 'Merle was born her mother was 15-years-old'. But, I am not adding it back as references which can be checked immediately does not claim that and a citation is surely needed for this piece of info. Thanks. -- GDibyendu ( talk) 20:37, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
This is in the article :
"She is only known to have been to Australia once, when she agreed to visit Hobart for a homecoming reception in 1978, the year before her death. However, shortly after arriving at the reception she excused herself, claiming illness. Many people who might have been in a position to confirm or disprove her Tasmanian connection were denied the opportunity to meet her and question her. She was not seen elsewhere in public during her Australian visit. "
I'm sure she was seen elsewhere. I'm fairly sure that she was invited to be a presenter at the Logie Awards and accepted, and that the invitation to visit Tasmania was extended after. I'm also fairly sure that she attended the Logie's without incident. I don't know if this may be an angle to pursue to find some sourcing for this section. There was also a documentary produced a few years ago that investigated the "myth" of her origins. I can't remember the title, but in it the claim was made that Oberon did make public appearances in Tasmania despite the fact that she found it very difficult and intimidating. I don't know what the truth is, but I think this paragraph is not on the right track. Rossrs ( talk) 09:04, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) I was reading another article earlier today, and it said that in her time racism was so rampant that she would never have had a career if she had not created a false history. (I guess you only have to look at someone like Anna May Wong who was only allowed to kiss Asian actors on screen, and who lost Asian parts to non-Asian performers like Luise Rainer in "yellowface") I guess Tasmania was isolated enough, and not well known. I'm just amazed at how successfully she pulled it off and how high she rose. I find the Errol Flynn comment amusing. It would have been an interesting conversation to overhear. Rossrs ( talk) 01:49, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
Birth certificates don't always list the mother's maiden name, and this one just says "mother's name". If Arthur Thompson was the father, then the mother would also be a Thompson regardless of marital status and no questions asked. Henry Selby was born Henry Soares. When Constance parted from her husband she and her children resumed the surname Selby and she called herself Joyce Constance. This is from Higham who admittedly makes up what he doesn't know, but is from interviews with Henry Selby and is confirmed by later shipping records. Whether Charlotte or Constance was the mother will always be debatable. The fact that "Constance" was also Charlotte's middle name adds to the mix. Merle's appearance seems to be much more anglicized than Constance [3] which perhaps suggests an extra generation of English DNA.-- Donde1960 ( talk) 14:05, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
How tall was Merle Oberon? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.203.46.33 ( talk) 17:43, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
Is it right to call her an Indian actress when she never made films in India? Other sites/movie directories etc refer to her as a British actress, while also acknowledging her Indian background. What do you think Jack? Rossrs ( talk) 22:59, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
There certainly seems to be an aura of fiction regarding Miss Oberon. See the photograph of her grave here which shows her birth date at 1917, 6 years later than other sources indicate. I wonder if this means she also fudged her birthdate to her husband, the person most likely to have ordered the grave marker. What next - she isn't even dead? Rossrs ( talk) 05:25, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
Re: "I wonder if this means she also fudged her birthdate to her husband"
Yes she did. When she married Robert Wolders in Jan 1975, he was 38 and Merle gave her age as 57 (California marriage indexes). She was actually 63, almost 64. Prior to that, she had always given her birth year as 1911 on all official documents and in interviews. If she was born in 1917 she would have been only 16 years old when she was in The Private Life of Henry VIII and I am sure that would have been noted in her later career. It is a woman's prerogative to be whatever age she can get away with!-- Donde1960 ( talk) 14:05, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
We're saying that her real origins were only made known after her death in 1979. I have a very clear recollection of talking about her to a friend at work in around 1970 or 1971. I mentioned that she was Australian, and my friend said "Oh, no she wasn't. It's generally accepted these days that she was Anglo-Indian". So there were certainly some doubts being expressed well before she died. -- JackofOz ( talk) 05:57, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
When you go to the link about her grave. The gravestone and the website hosting the grave pictures < http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=1574> both record her birth year as 1917 and not 1911 as recorded in the Wikipedia article. < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merle_Oberon>
I didn't want to change the article as I have no other source with which to dispute this date. I also cannot reconcile issues about later events recorded in Wikipedia. This puts into question the following detail in Wikipedia:
"Some sources claim Charlotte Selby, a Eurasian from Ceylon with partial Maori heritage,[4] and Arthur Terrence O'Brien Thompson, a British mechanical engineer from Darlington, who worked in Indian Railways,[5] as Merle's parents." < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merle_Oberon>
If Merle Oberon was born in 1917 and not 1911, the following makes the recorded paternity questionable: "In 1914, when Merle was three, Arthur Thompson died of pneumonia on the Western Front in the early months of World War I." < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merle_Oberon>
If Arthur Thompson was the father, he died on a date later than the 1914 date recorded in Wikipedia. If Arthur Thompson died in 1914, it seems extremely unlikely that he was the father of Merle Oberon born in 1917.
I hope this issue is resolved by somebody more qualified than I. 24.19.173.191 ( talk) 18:22, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
Merle was never born in 1917. She told her last husband Robert Wolders that she was born in 1917 and he believed her. At that time (the 1970s) she was in her 60s and she merely took a few years off her age to appear younger. The truth was she was born in 1911. I am not sure if it was the 18th or the 19th of February. Her birth certificate states the 18th, but other sources state she was born on the 19th. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.7.140.3 ( talk) 23:39, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
During the 1960s, the surviving reels of "I,Claudius" were broadcast on UK TV, hosted by Dirk Bogarde. Several of the original cast were still alive including the late Emlyn Williams. Apparently Merle Oberon walked to hospital after the motoring accident so the injury cannot have been too serious.
The circumstances of the accident never seem to have been revealed so who was driving and what went wrong? AT Kunene ( talk) 09:31, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
The circumstances of the accident and lawsuits were widely reported http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/result?q=%22SIDNEY+DIGBY%22 Donde1960 ( talk) 01:57, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
During the broadcast of "I, Claudius", somebody recalled that the part of Valeria Messalina was played by the "fifteen year old Merle Oberon".
If the reconstructions of her birth date are correct,it is possible that she was older than fifteen at the time and had already fooled a number of people. AT Kunene ( talk) 09:50, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
'I, Claudius' was filmed in 1937 and I doubt that even Merle would have tried to claim being 15 years old at the time. I would guess that this was said by someone who was mathematically challenged. Donde1960 ( talk) 02:05, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
In a recently published book called "The Birth of the Pill," by Jonathan Eig, he states that at the age of sixteen, Merle Oberon was, on orders of her mother (whoever that was), sterilized surgically. The ostensible reason was that her mother thought she was too beautiful and wanted to spare her unwanted male attention and possible rape. Seems flimsy to me, but it's stated as fact. Apparently the records of Dr. Rock, a gynecologist instrumental in the development of the birth control pill, but at the time running a fertility clinic, show that Merle Oberon came to him so that he could reverse the procedure. If it did happen, the reversing procedure was successful, as she subsequently had two children. Can anybody confirm this story? 65.81.79.71 ( talk) 15:45, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
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Which part of this statement is a myth? I understand that Oberon significantly misrepresented her background, including claiming to have been born in a different country 6,000 miles from where she was actually born, but I don't see anything obviously fictional in the above statement. -- Metropolitan90 (talk) 15:04, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
Charles Higham and Roy Moseley's biography of Merle, published 40 years ago, makes the claim that Merle's Sri Lankan birth mother Constance Selby was "part Maori." In writing (very much of its era) they describe Selby this way: "She is small, lovely and dark with black hair parted in the middle, liquid brown eyes, and exquisite firm high breasts, inheritances from a part-Maori background" (P17-18). The "Maori blood in her mother" is mentioned again on page 284, and nothing else - no notes or references regarding the claim. Have any editors come across any other historical sources that confirm this statement? Googling the question just seems to come back to this article, or to Higham and Moseley. Nickm57 ( talk) 06:33, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
Within this article Oberon's mother's age at the time of Oberon's birth is listed as both 12 and 14. Surely both cannot be true. 64.98.89.245 ( talk) 14:11, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
The story that Merle Oberon had Maori ancestry appears in Charles Higham and Roy Moseley’s 1983 biography, Princess Merle. I noted (above) they make reference to the Maori claim twice, on P17-18 and on P284 but provide no source. In re-reading page 283-4 it seems the origins of the myth may rest with Higham and Modeley's take on comments made by Robert Wolders, Merle’s fourth husband. They cite Wolders account of taking Merle by ship in 1974, on a world cruise, taking in ports in Asia, including tours of sights and temples in Bombay:
"She wanted to find out her mysterious origins and whether she could find the answer in those bland slumbering faces. Neither she nor I could really see her in them. We sailed on to the Indies. It was only when we got to Bali that we saw her likeness in the temples there. At last we felt we knew where she came from."
Higham and Moseley then add their own commentary – a not very accurate take on history plus some wishful thinking:
"It is important to note that the Maoris came from Indonesia in the eighth century, traversing thousands of miles and stopping for repairs in tiny islands before settling in New Zealand. The Maori blood in her mother had at last found its recognition in Merle’s subconscious."
So this might be the origin of the "Maori blood" story. I can find nothing else, anywhere, to support this idea of Merle Oberon having Maori ancestry, except in newspaper reports that repeat it.
However, there is a very similar story of the cultural appropriation of Merle Oberon, documented in the 2002 film The Trouble with Merle. The film demonstrates the tenacious Tasmanian belief that Merle Oberon was the daughter of a woman called Lottie Chintock - a belief that exists to this day.
For those interested, Angela Woollacott’s chapter on Merle in "Race and the Modern Exotic" (2011) is also highly recommended. Nickm57 ( talk) 23:37, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
Is there any information on Merle's birth father? The article states only that she was raised by Arthur Thompson and Charlotte Selby, and her birth mother was Charlotte's daughter Constance. But who was her father? Elsquared ( talk) 06:31, 15 April 2023 (UTC)
The section "parentage" says that probably her mother was her grandmother. The section "personal life" does state that as a fact. Both is a little bit contradictory. Maybe someone with more in-depth knowledge can align both paragraphs? Thank you. Glamourqueen ( talk) 18:37, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Merle Oberon article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
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|
Charles Hingham has been revealed more than once to be a fabricator if not downright liar for more than four decades. Using one of his "biographies" (other than the one on Katharine Hepburn which was authorized) reflects badly on Wikipedia. I suggest anything attributed to Hingham not backed up by another source (and not one that is drawing on this Wiki article or Hingman) be removed. Montju ( talk) 14:43, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
WikiProject Biography Assessment
Nearly a B; needs references.
The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Yamara 14:09, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 18:45, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
No mention of this widely alleged (and almost certainly true) affair? (See www.throneout.com/images/royal_affairs.pdf) 89.243.106.208 ( talk) 09:55, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
The first line of the article states Miss Oberon's birth name as Estelle Merle Oberon. Immediately to the right of the article in the infomation box under her picture, it states her birth name as Estelle Merle O'Brien Thompson. Which is it? Not very encyclopedic, I must say, but typical Wikipedia none-the-less. 65.69.81.2 ( talk) 20:34, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I removed the '15-years-old' as it was sounding ridiculous. However, I assume that the intended meaning was probably to say that when 'Merle was born her mother was 15-years-old'. But, I am not adding it back as references which can be checked immediately does not claim that and a citation is surely needed for this piece of info. Thanks. -- GDibyendu ( talk) 20:37, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
This is in the article :
"She is only known to have been to Australia once, when she agreed to visit Hobart for a homecoming reception in 1978, the year before her death. However, shortly after arriving at the reception she excused herself, claiming illness. Many people who might have been in a position to confirm or disprove her Tasmanian connection were denied the opportunity to meet her and question her. She was not seen elsewhere in public during her Australian visit. "
I'm sure she was seen elsewhere. I'm fairly sure that she was invited to be a presenter at the Logie Awards and accepted, and that the invitation to visit Tasmania was extended after. I'm also fairly sure that she attended the Logie's without incident. I don't know if this may be an angle to pursue to find some sourcing for this section. There was also a documentary produced a few years ago that investigated the "myth" of her origins. I can't remember the title, but in it the claim was made that Oberon did make public appearances in Tasmania despite the fact that she found it very difficult and intimidating. I don't know what the truth is, but I think this paragraph is not on the right track. Rossrs ( talk) 09:04, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) I was reading another article earlier today, and it said that in her time racism was so rampant that she would never have had a career if she had not created a false history. (I guess you only have to look at someone like Anna May Wong who was only allowed to kiss Asian actors on screen, and who lost Asian parts to non-Asian performers like Luise Rainer in "yellowface") I guess Tasmania was isolated enough, and not well known. I'm just amazed at how successfully she pulled it off and how high she rose. I find the Errol Flynn comment amusing. It would have been an interesting conversation to overhear. Rossrs ( talk) 01:49, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
Birth certificates don't always list the mother's maiden name, and this one just says "mother's name". If Arthur Thompson was the father, then the mother would also be a Thompson regardless of marital status and no questions asked. Henry Selby was born Henry Soares. When Constance parted from her husband she and her children resumed the surname Selby and she called herself Joyce Constance. This is from Higham who admittedly makes up what he doesn't know, but is from interviews with Henry Selby and is confirmed by later shipping records. Whether Charlotte or Constance was the mother will always be debatable. The fact that "Constance" was also Charlotte's middle name adds to the mix. Merle's appearance seems to be much more anglicized than Constance [3] which perhaps suggests an extra generation of English DNA.-- Donde1960 ( talk) 14:05, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
How tall was Merle Oberon? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.203.46.33 ( talk) 17:43, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
Is it right to call her an Indian actress when she never made films in India? Other sites/movie directories etc refer to her as a British actress, while also acknowledging her Indian background. What do you think Jack? Rossrs ( talk) 22:59, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
There certainly seems to be an aura of fiction regarding Miss Oberon. See the photograph of her grave here which shows her birth date at 1917, 6 years later than other sources indicate. I wonder if this means she also fudged her birthdate to her husband, the person most likely to have ordered the grave marker. What next - she isn't even dead? Rossrs ( talk) 05:25, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
Re: "I wonder if this means she also fudged her birthdate to her husband"
Yes she did. When she married Robert Wolders in Jan 1975, he was 38 and Merle gave her age as 57 (California marriage indexes). She was actually 63, almost 64. Prior to that, she had always given her birth year as 1911 on all official documents and in interviews. If she was born in 1917 she would have been only 16 years old when she was in The Private Life of Henry VIII and I am sure that would have been noted in her later career. It is a woman's prerogative to be whatever age she can get away with!-- Donde1960 ( talk) 14:05, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
We're saying that her real origins were only made known after her death in 1979. I have a very clear recollection of talking about her to a friend at work in around 1970 or 1971. I mentioned that she was Australian, and my friend said "Oh, no she wasn't. It's generally accepted these days that she was Anglo-Indian". So there were certainly some doubts being expressed well before she died. -- JackofOz ( talk) 05:57, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
When you go to the link about her grave. The gravestone and the website hosting the grave pictures < http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=1574> both record her birth year as 1917 and not 1911 as recorded in the Wikipedia article. < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merle_Oberon>
I didn't want to change the article as I have no other source with which to dispute this date. I also cannot reconcile issues about later events recorded in Wikipedia. This puts into question the following detail in Wikipedia:
"Some sources claim Charlotte Selby, a Eurasian from Ceylon with partial Maori heritage,[4] and Arthur Terrence O'Brien Thompson, a British mechanical engineer from Darlington, who worked in Indian Railways,[5] as Merle's parents." < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merle_Oberon>
If Merle Oberon was born in 1917 and not 1911, the following makes the recorded paternity questionable: "In 1914, when Merle was three, Arthur Thompson died of pneumonia on the Western Front in the early months of World War I." < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merle_Oberon>
If Arthur Thompson was the father, he died on a date later than the 1914 date recorded in Wikipedia. If Arthur Thompson died in 1914, it seems extremely unlikely that he was the father of Merle Oberon born in 1917.
I hope this issue is resolved by somebody more qualified than I. 24.19.173.191 ( talk) 18:22, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
Merle was never born in 1917. She told her last husband Robert Wolders that she was born in 1917 and he believed her. At that time (the 1970s) she was in her 60s and she merely took a few years off her age to appear younger. The truth was she was born in 1911. I am not sure if it was the 18th or the 19th of February. Her birth certificate states the 18th, but other sources state she was born on the 19th. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.7.140.3 ( talk) 23:39, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
During the 1960s, the surviving reels of "I,Claudius" were broadcast on UK TV, hosted by Dirk Bogarde. Several of the original cast were still alive including the late Emlyn Williams. Apparently Merle Oberon walked to hospital after the motoring accident so the injury cannot have been too serious.
The circumstances of the accident never seem to have been revealed so who was driving and what went wrong? AT Kunene ( talk) 09:31, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
The circumstances of the accident and lawsuits were widely reported http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/result?q=%22SIDNEY+DIGBY%22 Donde1960 ( talk) 01:57, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
During the broadcast of "I, Claudius", somebody recalled that the part of Valeria Messalina was played by the "fifteen year old Merle Oberon".
If the reconstructions of her birth date are correct,it is possible that she was older than fifteen at the time and had already fooled a number of people. AT Kunene ( talk) 09:50, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
'I, Claudius' was filmed in 1937 and I doubt that even Merle would have tried to claim being 15 years old at the time. I would guess that this was said by someone who was mathematically challenged. Donde1960 ( talk) 02:05, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
In a recently published book called "The Birth of the Pill," by Jonathan Eig, he states that at the age of sixteen, Merle Oberon was, on orders of her mother (whoever that was), sterilized surgically. The ostensible reason was that her mother thought she was too beautiful and wanted to spare her unwanted male attention and possible rape. Seems flimsy to me, but it's stated as fact. Apparently the records of Dr. Rock, a gynecologist instrumental in the development of the birth control pill, but at the time running a fertility clinic, show that Merle Oberon came to him so that he could reverse the procedure. If it did happen, the reversing procedure was successful, as she subsequently had two children. Can anybody confirm this story? 65.81.79.71 ( talk) 15:45, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
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I have just modified 2 external links on Merle Oberon. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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The article currently says:
Which part of this statement is a myth? I understand that Oberon significantly misrepresented her background, including claiming to have been born in a different country 6,000 miles from where she was actually born, but I don't see anything obviously fictional in the above statement. -- Metropolitan90 (talk) 15:04, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
Charles Higham and Roy Moseley's biography of Merle, published 40 years ago, makes the claim that Merle's Sri Lankan birth mother Constance Selby was "part Maori." In writing (very much of its era) they describe Selby this way: "She is small, lovely and dark with black hair parted in the middle, liquid brown eyes, and exquisite firm high breasts, inheritances from a part-Maori background" (P17-18). The "Maori blood in her mother" is mentioned again on page 284, and nothing else - no notes or references regarding the claim. Have any editors come across any other historical sources that confirm this statement? Googling the question just seems to come back to this article, or to Higham and Moseley. Nickm57 ( talk) 06:33, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
Within this article Oberon's mother's age at the time of Oberon's birth is listed as both 12 and 14. Surely both cannot be true. 64.98.89.245 ( talk) 14:11, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
The story that Merle Oberon had Maori ancestry appears in Charles Higham and Roy Moseley’s 1983 biography, Princess Merle. I noted (above) they make reference to the Maori claim twice, on P17-18 and on P284 but provide no source. In re-reading page 283-4 it seems the origins of the myth may rest with Higham and Modeley's take on comments made by Robert Wolders, Merle’s fourth husband. They cite Wolders account of taking Merle by ship in 1974, on a world cruise, taking in ports in Asia, including tours of sights and temples in Bombay:
"She wanted to find out her mysterious origins and whether she could find the answer in those bland slumbering faces. Neither she nor I could really see her in them. We sailed on to the Indies. It was only when we got to Bali that we saw her likeness in the temples there. At last we felt we knew where she came from."
Higham and Moseley then add their own commentary – a not very accurate take on history plus some wishful thinking:
"It is important to note that the Maoris came from Indonesia in the eighth century, traversing thousands of miles and stopping for repairs in tiny islands before settling in New Zealand. The Maori blood in her mother had at last found its recognition in Merle’s subconscious."
So this might be the origin of the "Maori blood" story. I can find nothing else, anywhere, to support this idea of Merle Oberon having Maori ancestry, except in newspaper reports that repeat it.
However, there is a very similar story of the cultural appropriation of Merle Oberon, documented in the 2002 film The Trouble with Merle. The film demonstrates the tenacious Tasmanian belief that Merle Oberon was the daughter of a woman called Lottie Chintock - a belief that exists to this day.
For those interested, Angela Woollacott’s chapter on Merle in "Race and the Modern Exotic" (2011) is also highly recommended. Nickm57 ( talk) 23:37, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
Is there any information on Merle's birth father? The article states only that she was raised by Arthur Thompson and Charlotte Selby, and her birth mother was Charlotte's daughter Constance. But who was her father? Elsquared ( talk) 06:31, 15 April 2023 (UTC)
The section "parentage" says that probably her mother was her grandmother. The section "personal life" does state that as a fact. Both is a little bit contradictory. Maybe someone with more in-depth knowledge can align both paragraphs? Thank you. Glamourqueen ( talk) 18:37, 18 January 2024 (UTC)