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If they were, they would be celebrating in August, along with the ethnic Macedonian world, but they are celebrating in July, along with the Greek world. In the village my family comes from they do celebrate Prophet Elias and, well, trust me, noone is ethnic Macedonian.-- Avg ( talk) 01:32, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
I have never said that all of the people in Meliti identify ethnically as Macedonians, they dont. They Pontic Greeks clearly identify as Greeks while so do some of the people with a Slavic Macedonian background. However the majority of the Macedonian Slavic speakers identify as Aegean Macedonians. Some celebrate the Ilinden uprising, some celebrate the Prophet Elias. Just as is the case across the Greek region of Macedonia, however it just happens to be so that the majority of the pepole from Meliti identify ethnically as non-Greeks. In other villages the opposite occurs. Avg, is is that so hard to realise?
Rather than blocking the disputants, I've reverted to the June version before this started and protected the article. If you are unable to work together as colleagues, then go to dispute resolution and have somebody babysit. Meanwhile, if there are non-contentious edits that need to be made, tell me here and I can add them in. — kwami ( talk) 10:23, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
There have been issues regarding Meliti. The issues largely revolve around the name of the mayor of the village, who calls himself (and is widely called) Pando Ašlakov, however is also called Panagiotis Anastiadisis.
There are issues regarding the nature of the population of the village. The village is inhabited by
Macedonian speakers, and it can be said that many of the people do consider themselves to be
ethnic Macedonians. A testament to this is the fact that Macedonian langauge newspapers and dictionaries are sold in the village, the Mayor publically declares himself to be ethnic Macedonian and Macedonian singers/performers including Suzana Spasovska,
Elena Velevska, Group
Synthesis and
Vaska Ilieva have all been invited to sing at the annual village fair. To anyone with knowledge of the socio-linguistic situation in Greece, this phenomenon does not occur where people consider themselves to be
Slavophone Greeks (with presumably no links to ethnic Macedonian language, culture, etc.)
Furthermore, what minority language is used by the people living in the village? Is is "a local slavic dialect" or is it the
Prilep-Bitola dialect of
Macedonian, which is reported to be spoken by numerous sources.
I look forward to the discussion, and hopefully we may arrive at some form of mutually acceptable formula to apply to similar cases.
Lunch for Two (
talk)
13:56, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
I will write only regarding the name of the Mayor of Meliti. The Mayor (in each community of the world) is the local representative of the central goverment of each state. So when she/he is refered as a "Mayor of something.." she/he is obliged to use the official name that is known to the state and is also in his official documents. Moreover, she/he is obliged to use this name because is the name with which was elected. So, when we refer to this person with the title "Mayor of Meliti" we have to use the name Panagiotis Anastasiadis. He can use any name he wishes in his personal life but in the ballots of the elections was writen as Panagiotis Anastasiadis. If he changes his name legally on his official documents and then reelects the we can use the name Pando Aslakov. So, Lunch for Two stop reverting and editing this point about the name of the Mayor because you are wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.202.24.171 ( talk) 21:16, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
In a democracy, the mayor is not "the local representative of the central goverment", as the anonymous editor above wants us to believe, but rather the highest ranking officer in the municipal government. In a democracy, the mayor is generall elected by the people.
Regarding Meliti, this village is no more a municipality and therefore has no municipal government and no mayor. Mr Ašlakov-Anastiadisis is "πρόεδρος του Δημοτικού Διαμερίσματος", which translates as "President (or Chairman) of the Municipal Division". This is also an elected office. Mayor in Greek is Δήμαρχος. Andreas (T) 15:35, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
A native of Greek Macedonia and a former exile, teacher and local historian, Pavlos Koufis / Pavle Koufov, wrote in 'Laografika Florinas kai Kastorias' (Folklore of Florina and Kastoria) that,
The statement about 'Turks' in Meliti has been refuted by Anastasiadis, who in a letter to the Municipal Council of Florina explained that this was a mistake of a journalist at Devnik. In particular, he writes: "η δημοσιογράφος άθελά της έγραψε «έχουμε και Τούρκους στη Μελίτη» αντί της ορθής δήλωσης μου «έχουμε και πρόσφυγες από την Τουρκία στην Μελίτη» που εγκαταστάθηκαν στην κοινότητά μας, και ευρύτερα, μετά το 1922)" my translation: "The journalist involuntarily wrote: 'We have Turks in Meliti', instead of my correct statment: 'We have refugees from Turkey in Meliti', who settled in our community, and more commonly, after 1922". He then proceeds to complain about the negative impact of the failure of the Greek press to correctly transmit his statement. The full letter [1] can be found at the website of the Rainbow party
Even if it can be argued that this is an a posteriori attempt of damage control by the Party, the statement as published in the press cannot appear here because it cointentious and is not a reliable source for the actual demographic situation in Meliti. Andreas (T) 12:43, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
I found Πνευματικός Μορφωτικός Σύλλογος Μελίτης (Π.Μ.Σ.Μ.) but suspect it is not notable enough, but maybe a start to get better sources. Andreas (T) 13:18, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
I will say it again. It is my impression that Lunch for Two is a sock puppet or has edited before and extensively under a different name. I think I even pointed out dishonest edits. His accusations of 'word must have spread quickly' is also opportunistic, dishonest and indicative of comments that should ban this user for a while. Before his (re) appearance the Macedonian related articles flowed nicely and were relatively unvisited. Politis ( talk) 18:33, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
I really would like to see a reliable source for the claim that the protests against the local firing range were by "ethnic Macedonians". In this article by the decidedly left-wing and anti-nationalist Ios, no mention whatsoever is made of the villagers' purported ethnic affiliation. On the contrary, it quotes the president of the local council of Lofoi who specifically says that the protests were not aimed against Greece or the Hellenic Army:
Κι αυτό που θέλουν να υπονοήσουνε, ότι δεν αφήνουμε το πεδίο γιατί είμαστε εχθρικοί στην Ελλάδα, είναι ψέματα. Εμείς υπηρετήσαμε στο στρατό, η καρδιά μας χτυπάει στην ελληνική Βουλή, άλλο τα ήθη και τα έθιμα. Να το κόψουν όσοι λένε ότι εμείς δεν θέλουμε τον ελληνικό στρατό. Εμείς κάναμε παραχώρηση δυο μήνες για την Ολυμπιάδα με συμφωνία να μη γίνουν βολές και το πρόβλημά μας είναι μόνο το πεδίο βολής.
Now we know the incident was subsequently hijacked by both the Rainbow party and Hrisi Avgi for their own political gain, but do we really need to report it on their terms? ·ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ· 15:31, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
I am trying to contribute in the greek version of the article. My question is how reliable according to the policy of wikipedia are the references to the website http://www.promacedonia.org/mpr/ohrana.html and http://www.promacedonia.org/vk/vk_2_38.htm? Are these copies of original published and reliable books? Also the web reference http://novazora.gr/arhivi/524 is reliable? novazora.gr site is belonging the the Rainbow party? Ggia ( talk) 12:36, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
As per promacedonia.org, these copies are of original published books, whose reliability depends on their authors and their publishers. Regs. Jingby ( talk) 12:47, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
A good reference is the book of Kostopoulos "Η απαγορευμένη γλώσσα - Κρατική Καταστολή των Σλαβικών Διαλέκτων στην Ελληνική Μακεδονία." (the title of the book can be translated as "The forbitten language: State suppression of the Slavic dialects in Greek Macedonia" (unfortunately the source is in Greek).. I add some info from that book [4] (my english is not so good - please correct my typos). Ggia ( talk) 13:01, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
If there is a proposed copyright violation, because some of the publication on ProMacedonia are probably unlicensed mirrors of book publications, then delete the link to this site - ProMacedonia or others, but not the source, i.e. the name of the book, author, publisher, page and so on. Their names are not copyright violation. Thank you. Jingby ( talk) 16:27, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
There has been an undue overreaction over the contents on this page, which include holding the sources on this page to an unusually high (one can say unreasonable) standard, in order to have them discredited and removed. What I do find ironic, is that even on Greek wikipedia the link between ethnic Macedonians and the village is mentioned. Surely if it acceptable there (which like all of the Balkan Wiki's is prone to nationalist bias) then at least some parts are usable here. Overanalysis of source to the point where statements are being made out of context inevitably leads to WP:OR. Lunch for Two ( talk) 13:04, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
Brancoff. "La Macedoine et sa Population Chretienne". Paris, 1905 / This is a primary source.. And a secondary source (maybe) citing to this source is needed [5]. This book is online here Ggia ( talk) 15:15, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
As per Future's comment to give proper bibliographic info to check reliability of this title. This is the name of the magazine issued by the Macedonian Scientific Institute in English "Macedonian Review", in Bulgarian "Македонски преглед". The "Macedonian Review" is published quarterly. The "Macedonian Review" is concerned with Macedonia and all branches of the study of its history, culture and social life. Macedonian Scientific Institute, Pirotska Street, No 5, Sofia 1301, Bulgaria, © Macedonian Scientific Institute ISSN 0861. You can check here: [6] and [7]. Jingby ( talk) 14:00, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
Thank you, Future. Jingby ( talk) 14:39, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
In 2010 in the magazine's editorial board were included Prof. Trendafil Mitev (editor) - University of National and World Economy in Sofia, Prof. Dimitar Gotsev - Sofia University, Prof. Dr. Stoyan Germanov - Macedonian Scientific Institute, prof Svetlozar Eldarov - Bulgarian Academy of Sciences, Ph.D. Margarita Vassileva - Bulgarian Academy of Sciences, Associated member Dr. Alexander Grebenarov, Prof. Jordan Constantin (Romania), Prof. Dr. Anna Choleva - Bulgarian Academy of Sciences, Ph.D. Dr. Liliana Vassileva, Dr. Georgi Georgiev. Jingby ( talk) 18:02, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
By the way, there is no older scientific institution in the world specialized in the Macedonian issue. Jingby ( talk) 18:25, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
I did not understand what is unreliable in this statement of сп. Македонски преглед, or maybe it is not in accordance with the ideas of some editors? Maybe propagandist websites are more reliable from the Macedonian Scientific Institute? Jingby ( talk) 18:44, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
"Slavic-speaking Slavophones" is a pleonasm. I would suggest either "Slavic speakers", "Macedonian Slavic speakers", or "slavophones". What is meant by this is amply explained in the artile linked on Slavic speakers of Greek Macedonia. Andreas (T) 02:19, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
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If they were, they would be celebrating in August, along with the ethnic Macedonian world, but they are celebrating in July, along with the Greek world. In the village my family comes from they do celebrate Prophet Elias and, well, trust me, noone is ethnic Macedonian.-- Avg ( talk) 01:32, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
I have never said that all of the people in Meliti identify ethnically as Macedonians, they dont. They Pontic Greeks clearly identify as Greeks while so do some of the people with a Slavic Macedonian background. However the majority of the Macedonian Slavic speakers identify as Aegean Macedonians. Some celebrate the Ilinden uprising, some celebrate the Prophet Elias. Just as is the case across the Greek region of Macedonia, however it just happens to be so that the majority of the pepole from Meliti identify ethnically as non-Greeks. In other villages the opposite occurs. Avg, is is that so hard to realise?
Rather than blocking the disputants, I've reverted to the June version before this started and protected the article. If you are unable to work together as colleagues, then go to dispute resolution and have somebody babysit. Meanwhile, if there are non-contentious edits that need to be made, tell me here and I can add them in. — kwami ( talk) 10:23, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
There have been issues regarding Meliti. The issues largely revolve around the name of the mayor of the village, who calls himself (and is widely called) Pando Ašlakov, however is also called Panagiotis Anastiadisis.
There are issues regarding the nature of the population of the village. The village is inhabited by
Macedonian speakers, and it can be said that many of the people do consider themselves to be
ethnic Macedonians. A testament to this is the fact that Macedonian langauge newspapers and dictionaries are sold in the village, the Mayor publically declares himself to be ethnic Macedonian and Macedonian singers/performers including Suzana Spasovska,
Elena Velevska, Group
Synthesis and
Vaska Ilieva have all been invited to sing at the annual village fair. To anyone with knowledge of the socio-linguistic situation in Greece, this phenomenon does not occur where people consider themselves to be
Slavophone Greeks (with presumably no links to ethnic Macedonian language, culture, etc.)
Furthermore, what minority language is used by the people living in the village? Is is "a local slavic dialect" or is it the
Prilep-Bitola dialect of
Macedonian, which is reported to be spoken by numerous sources.
I look forward to the discussion, and hopefully we may arrive at some form of mutually acceptable formula to apply to similar cases.
Lunch for Two (
talk)
13:56, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
I will write only regarding the name of the Mayor of Meliti. The Mayor (in each community of the world) is the local representative of the central goverment of each state. So when she/he is refered as a "Mayor of something.." she/he is obliged to use the official name that is known to the state and is also in his official documents. Moreover, she/he is obliged to use this name because is the name with which was elected. So, when we refer to this person with the title "Mayor of Meliti" we have to use the name Panagiotis Anastasiadis. He can use any name he wishes in his personal life but in the ballots of the elections was writen as Panagiotis Anastasiadis. If he changes his name legally on his official documents and then reelects the we can use the name Pando Aslakov. So, Lunch for Two stop reverting and editing this point about the name of the Mayor because you are wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.202.24.171 ( talk) 21:16, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
In a democracy, the mayor is not "the local representative of the central goverment", as the anonymous editor above wants us to believe, but rather the highest ranking officer in the municipal government. In a democracy, the mayor is generall elected by the people.
Regarding Meliti, this village is no more a municipality and therefore has no municipal government and no mayor. Mr Ašlakov-Anastiadisis is "πρόεδρος του Δημοτικού Διαμερίσματος", which translates as "President (or Chairman) of the Municipal Division". This is also an elected office. Mayor in Greek is Δήμαρχος. Andreas (T) 15:35, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
A native of Greek Macedonia and a former exile, teacher and local historian, Pavlos Koufis / Pavle Koufov, wrote in 'Laografika Florinas kai Kastorias' (Folklore of Florina and Kastoria) that,
The statement about 'Turks' in Meliti has been refuted by Anastasiadis, who in a letter to the Municipal Council of Florina explained that this was a mistake of a journalist at Devnik. In particular, he writes: "η δημοσιογράφος άθελά της έγραψε «έχουμε και Τούρκους στη Μελίτη» αντί της ορθής δήλωσης μου «έχουμε και πρόσφυγες από την Τουρκία στην Μελίτη» που εγκαταστάθηκαν στην κοινότητά μας, και ευρύτερα, μετά το 1922)" my translation: "The journalist involuntarily wrote: 'We have Turks in Meliti', instead of my correct statment: 'We have refugees from Turkey in Meliti', who settled in our community, and more commonly, after 1922". He then proceeds to complain about the negative impact of the failure of the Greek press to correctly transmit his statement. The full letter [1] can be found at the website of the Rainbow party
Even if it can be argued that this is an a posteriori attempt of damage control by the Party, the statement as published in the press cannot appear here because it cointentious and is not a reliable source for the actual demographic situation in Meliti. Andreas (T) 12:43, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
I found Πνευματικός Μορφωτικός Σύλλογος Μελίτης (Π.Μ.Σ.Μ.) but suspect it is not notable enough, but maybe a start to get better sources. Andreas (T) 13:18, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
I will say it again. It is my impression that Lunch for Two is a sock puppet or has edited before and extensively under a different name. I think I even pointed out dishonest edits. His accusations of 'word must have spread quickly' is also opportunistic, dishonest and indicative of comments that should ban this user for a while. Before his (re) appearance the Macedonian related articles flowed nicely and were relatively unvisited. Politis ( talk) 18:33, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
I really would like to see a reliable source for the claim that the protests against the local firing range were by "ethnic Macedonians". In this article by the decidedly left-wing and anti-nationalist Ios, no mention whatsoever is made of the villagers' purported ethnic affiliation. On the contrary, it quotes the president of the local council of Lofoi who specifically says that the protests were not aimed against Greece or the Hellenic Army:
Κι αυτό που θέλουν να υπονοήσουνε, ότι δεν αφήνουμε το πεδίο γιατί είμαστε εχθρικοί στην Ελλάδα, είναι ψέματα. Εμείς υπηρετήσαμε στο στρατό, η καρδιά μας χτυπάει στην ελληνική Βουλή, άλλο τα ήθη και τα έθιμα. Να το κόψουν όσοι λένε ότι εμείς δεν θέλουμε τον ελληνικό στρατό. Εμείς κάναμε παραχώρηση δυο μήνες για την Ολυμπιάδα με συμφωνία να μη γίνουν βολές και το πρόβλημά μας είναι μόνο το πεδίο βολής.
Now we know the incident was subsequently hijacked by both the Rainbow party and Hrisi Avgi for their own political gain, but do we really need to report it on their terms? ·ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ· 15:31, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
I am trying to contribute in the greek version of the article. My question is how reliable according to the policy of wikipedia are the references to the website http://www.promacedonia.org/mpr/ohrana.html and http://www.promacedonia.org/vk/vk_2_38.htm? Are these copies of original published and reliable books? Also the web reference http://novazora.gr/arhivi/524 is reliable? novazora.gr site is belonging the the Rainbow party? Ggia ( talk) 12:36, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
As per promacedonia.org, these copies are of original published books, whose reliability depends on their authors and their publishers. Regs. Jingby ( talk) 12:47, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
A good reference is the book of Kostopoulos "Η απαγορευμένη γλώσσα - Κρατική Καταστολή των Σλαβικών Διαλέκτων στην Ελληνική Μακεδονία." (the title of the book can be translated as "The forbitten language: State suppression of the Slavic dialects in Greek Macedonia" (unfortunately the source is in Greek).. I add some info from that book [4] (my english is not so good - please correct my typos). Ggia ( talk) 13:01, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
If there is a proposed copyright violation, because some of the publication on ProMacedonia are probably unlicensed mirrors of book publications, then delete the link to this site - ProMacedonia or others, but not the source, i.e. the name of the book, author, publisher, page and so on. Their names are not copyright violation. Thank you. Jingby ( talk) 16:27, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
There has been an undue overreaction over the contents on this page, which include holding the sources on this page to an unusually high (one can say unreasonable) standard, in order to have them discredited and removed. What I do find ironic, is that even on Greek wikipedia the link between ethnic Macedonians and the village is mentioned. Surely if it acceptable there (which like all of the Balkan Wiki's is prone to nationalist bias) then at least some parts are usable here. Overanalysis of source to the point where statements are being made out of context inevitably leads to WP:OR. Lunch for Two ( talk) 13:04, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
Brancoff. "La Macedoine et sa Population Chretienne". Paris, 1905 / This is a primary source.. And a secondary source (maybe) citing to this source is needed [5]. This book is online here Ggia ( talk) 15:15, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
As per Future's comment to give proper bibliographic info to check reliability of this title. This is the name of the magazine issued by the Macedonian Scientific Institute in English "Macedonian Review", in Bulgarian "Македонски преглед". The "Macedonian Review" is published quarterly. The "Macedonian Review" is concerned with Macedonia and all branches of the study of its history, culture and social life. Macedonian Scientific Institute, Pirotska Street, No 5, Sofia 1301, Bulgaria, © Macedonian Scientific Institute ISSN 0861. You can check here: [6] and [7]. Jingby ( talk) 14:00, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
Thank you, Future. Jingby ( talk) 14:39, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
In 2010 in the magazine's editorial board were included Prof. Trendafil Mitev (editor) - University of National and World Economy in Sofia, Prof. Dimitar Gotsev - Sofia University, Prof. Dr. Stoyan Germanov - Macedonian Scientific Institute, prof Svetlozar Eldarov - Bulgarian Academy of Sciences, Ph.D. Margarita Vassileva - Bulgarian Academy of Sciences, Associated member Dr. Alexander Grebenarov, Prof. Jordan Constantin (Romania), Prof. Dr. Anna Choleva - Bulgarian Academy of Sciences, Ph.D. Dr. Liliana Vassileva, Dr. Georgi Georgiev. Jingby ( talk) 18:02, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
By the way, there is no older scientific institution in the world specialized in the Macedonian issue. Jingby ( talk) 18:25, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
I did not understand what is unreliable in this statement of сп. Македонски преглед, or maybe it is not in accordance with the ideas of some editors? Maybe propagandist websites are more reliable from the Macedonian Scientific Institute? Jingby ( talk) 18:44, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
"Slavic-speaking Slavophones" is a pleonasm. I would suggest either "Slavic speakers", "Macedonian Slavic speakers", or "slavophones". What is meant by this is amply explained in the artile linked on Slavic speakers of Greek Macedonia. Andreas (T) 02:19, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
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