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I have protected this page following a request by user:209.86.1.9 at WP:RFPP. Thryduulf 16:34, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
The specifics of this massacre have to do with the events of the occupation and not the battle, which should be dealt with in a nother article, not this one.
This is factualy incorrect as well as POV. Other sources besides South vietnames and US have argued that this was a premeditated slaughter. The other authorities who defend the NVA should be specificly named.
Hanoi's version bieng presented as fact, needs re wording with qualifiers.
Hanoi's version bieng presented as fact, needs re wording with qualifiers. And sources. TDC 19:53, July 23, 2005 (UTC)
Viet Cong Strategy of Terror, Douglas Pike
"Having covered the Viet Nam war over a period of five years for West German publications, I am now haunted by the role we journalists have played over there. Those of us who had wanted to find out knew of the evil nature of the Hanoi regime. We knew that, in 1956, close to 50,000 peasants were executed in North Vietnam. [As Nguyen Manh Tuong stated at the 1956 National Congress in Hanoi: 'It is better to kill 10 innocent people then let one enemy escape.'] We knew that after the division of the country nearly 1 million North Vietnamese had fled to the South.
"Many of us have seen the tortured and carved-up bodies of men, women and children executed by the Viet Cong in the early phases of the war. And many of us saw, in 1968, the mass graves of Hue, saw [take note, Mr. Patterson] the corpses of thousands of civilians still festively dressed for Tet, the Vietnamese New Year. Why, for Heavens sake, did we not report these expressions of deliberate North Vietnamese strategy at least as extensively as of the Mai Lai massacre and other such isolated incidents that were definitely not part of the U.S. policy in Viet Nam?
"What prompted us to make our readers believe that the Communists, once in power in all of Viet Nam, would behave benignly? What made us, first and foremost Anthony Lewis, belittle warnings by U.S. officials that a Communist victory would result in a massacre? Why did we ignore the fact that the man responsible for the executions of 50,000 peasants, Truong Chinh, was — and still is — one of the most powerful figures in Hanoi? What made us think that he and his comrades would have mercy for the vanquished South Vietnamese? What compelled, for example, Anthony Lewis shortly after the fall of Saigon to pat himself on the shoulder and write, "so much for the talk of a massacre?' True, no Cambodian-style massacre took place in Vietnam. It's just that Hanoi coolly drives its ethnic Chinese opponents into the sea. That's what Nasser threatened to do to the Israelis, no massacre intended, of course.
"Are we journalists not in part responsible for the death of the tens of thousands who drowned? And are we not in part responsible for the hostile reception accorded to those who survive? Did we not turn public opinion against them, portraying them, as one singularly ignoble cartoon did in the United States, as a bunch of pimps, whores, war profiteers, corrupt generals or, at best, outright reactionaries?
"Considering that today's Vietnam tragedy may have a lot to do with the way we reported yesterday's Vietnam tragedy; considering that we journalists might have our fair share of guilt for the inhuman way the world treats those who are being expelled by an inhuman regime which some of us had pictured as heroic, I think at least a little humility would be in order for us old Viet Nam hands, Mr. Lewis included. And if I did not strongly believe in everybody's right of free expression at any time, I would even admonish him to keep quiet about Indo-China, at least for a while".
How can this be worked into the article? TDC 19:57, July 23, 2005 (UTC)
Should this even be worked into the article? It would be largely redundant, and fit better in a biased news article than a (theoretically) neutral wikipedia page. Lucydesu ( talk) 09:29, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
User:TDC has enquired on my user page whether I am considering unprotecting this article. If others agree that this would not result in a resumption of the editing behaviour that got the article protected then please make a request for unprotection at WP:RFPP. Thryduulf 14:45, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Following the questions on my talk page:
I object to this article's contention that "others" believe that the number of victims in the massacre was exaggerated for "propaganda" purposes because the government never used it as a major rallying point for the war. In fact it should probably be mentioned how underreported the incident was in comparison to My Lai. If the government did use the incident in a manner that roused public opinion, please correct me. The same could be more aptly applied to My Lai by saying "some believe the anti-war left exaggerated the number of victims for propaganda purposes during major anti-war rallies". I also think it is wrong to state the number of victims ranged from hundreds to thousands because the generally accepted historical figure has been 3,000, again correct me if I'm mistaken. CJK 26 July 2005
"No one "confused the question," it was completely ignored." Well that clears things up. "...whole Hanoi government..." The Hanoi government is cited as a viable source? Okay... "You object to the "others" views being mentioned in the article." "Others" believe the Holocaust never happened too. "I'm also interested in your opinion on where this 3,000 figure came from" The book Vietnam: A History which is a highly respected work cites 3,000 along with The Atlas of American military history. You still have not cited a confirmed incident where the government deliberately exaggerated the claim or used the massacre for recruitment or in rallies. CJK 28 July 2005
The Massacre at Hue is the name given to describe the summary executions and mass killings that occurred during North Vietnam's capture, occupation and withdrawal from the city of Hue during the Tet Offensive, considered one of the longest and bloodiest battles of the Vietnam War. During the months that followed the battle, dozens of mass graves were discovered in and around Hue containing nearly 3000 civilians. In some of the mass graves victims were found bound together; some appeared tortured; others were even reported to have appeared buried alive. Estimates vary on the number executed, with a low of a couple hundred to a high of several thousand.
A number of US and South Vietnamese authorities took the discoveries, along with other evidence, as proof that a large-scale communist atrocity had been carried out in and around Hue during its four-week occupation. Some of these same sources also contended these killings were premeditated, and part of a large-scale purge of a whole social stratum. Other authorities contended a 'massacre' never occurred, and the numbers and circumstances of the casualties were exaggerated or fabricated for war propaganda reasons.
It would appear that I was completely wrong in my prior assessment of Oberdorfer’s work on Hue. Oberdorfer made three visits to Hue-one during the battle, another just after, and a third in December 1969. While there he examined graves, spoke with relatives of the victims, city officials (those who survived), church leaders, and captured VC. His work on Hue was not drawn from Pike in any way shape or form, and is in fact an independent corroboration of Pike’s assessment. TDC 16:25, August 3, 2005 (UTC)
I suggest breaking down the new subsection into three additional subsections along Pike's study and differentiation of the three major finds of graves. TDC 16:28, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
The first part states that: The NLF set up provisional authorities shortly after capturing Hue, and was charged with removing the existing government administration from power within the city and replacing it with a revolutionary administration. Working from lists of "cruel tyrants and reactionary elements" previously developed by VC intelligence officers, many people were to be rounded up following the initial hours of the attack.
and the las part states: There is considerable doubt that the NVA/VC had planned these executions beforehand.
How could there be such a large amount of pre-occupation planning of punitive actions taking place against citizens in Hue, and doubt that the executions were pre-planned?
You added the following content, "Philip W. Manhard, US province senior advisor in Hue, was taken to a POW camp by the NVA held until 1973. Manhard recounted that during the NVA withdrawal from Hue the NVA summarily executing anyone in their custody who resisted being taken out of the city or who was too old, too young, or two frail to make the journey to the camp." Since I know at least some of this to be true, I won't remove it for now, but may I have a source citation please? (Also, I see several typos... two -> too, executing -> executed, NVA held -> NVA and held) 165.247.213.27 18:16, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Foreign Affairs Oral History Project (Georgetown University) - 1974 interview TDC 18:43, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
Oberdorfer info: Washington Post; Dec 4 1969 A21, Dec 7 1969 A13
I've moved the following exerpt here for verification: "The mass graves within Hue itself were largely of those who had been picked up and executed for various " enemy of the people" offenses, or resisted the occupation."
The Pike citation is from the page where he discusses the initial mass grave that was examined, the one in Hue containing almost 1200 bodies. As for "considering Burchett's credentials," I don't. I only consider facts, as should you. If a talking dog says, "John Smith claims Bush is President," you should not dismiss what John Smith says, nor should you discount the alleged fact that Bush is president, simply because you have issues with talking dogs. 165.247.200.210 19:15, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
What is your source for this account? It differs greatly from mine, including the quotes? My insertion is based off of two articles he wrote for the Post on December 4th and 7th of 1969, and the quotes are direct, are there two versions of the story, and if not what is your source for the change of material. TDC 15:24, August 5, 2005 (UTC)
It was determined by piecing together bits of information from several sources that a large number of people had taken sanctuary from the battle in a local church. Several hundred of these people were ordered out to undergo indoctrination in the "liberated area," and told afterwards they would be allowed to return home. After marching the group south 9 kilometers, 20 of the people were seperated, tried, found guilty, executed and buried. The others were taken across the river and turned over to a local communist unit in an exchange that even included written receipts. It is probable that the remaining captives were to be re-educated and returned to Hue, but many were apparently shot days later when American or ARVN units came too close.
I have not found this in Pike’s study. TDC
Check pages 28-29 of his report and hypothesis to the US Mission in Saigon. 165.247.204.125 18:07, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
These individuals, according to VC documents captured during and after the seige, were to be taken out of the city and held and punished for their crimes against the Vietnamese people. The disposition of those who were previously in control of the city was carefully laid out, and the lists were detailed and extensive. Those in the Saigon-based government police apparatus at all levels were to be rounded up and held outside the city. High civilian and military officials were also removed from the city, both to await study of their individual cases. Ordinary civil servants working for "the Saigon enemy" out of necessity, but did not oppose the revolution, were destined for reeducation and later employment. Low-level civil servants who had at some point been involved in paramilitary activities were to be held for reeducation, but not employed.
I have also not found a source for this. TDC 15:42, August 5, 2005 (UTC)
Please be serious and rigourous in Political Sciences of Military and Strategic Studies and take the "Military Review. Us Army" as a reference work.
The Têt Offensive deployed in 3 Battles: Battle of Khê Sanh, Battle of Saigon and Battle of Huê. Go to the French version where I've put down all these.
Takima 21:18, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
These sections are bundled into really long paragraphs loaded with long sentences, many of the sentences containing two or three separate points. It all needs to be seriously revamped and broken up for ease of reading.
I recently added an image to this article that keeps getting removed by a user, supposedly because "its caption can not be verified". The image description clearly links to the Library of Congress Country Study: Vietnam page. The picture is in the "Second Indochina War" section (can not be linked directly because it is a temporary link). DHN 18:50, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
So who are the aggressors who killed the people of Huế? Or their identify a matter of dispute?
Who and what are the authorities that contend a massacre never occurred? They aren't identified in the article. There's one name, Gareth Porter, uncited, and it is the one place where the phrase propaganda and exaggeration are repeated. What are Porter's sources? However, the article text itself contradicts the suggestion made in the opening paragraph: the Porter doesn't have evidence there were fewer deaths than reported, or that the deaths were combat-related. So this first paragraph claim is unsupported. It's a mess. patsw 00:52, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure it's commonly referred as Hue not Huế in English, and for certain that at least one of the references listed is titled with "Hue" instead of "Huế", but listed as such in the section. Therefore, I think this is incorrect in general.
I respectfully disagree with your assertion. Please see the article on Huế as a whole on Wikipedia, for example. In addition, look at this from the Wikipedia Manual of Style- Foreign Words:
"Wikipedia prefers italics for phrases in other languages and for isolated foreign words that do not yet have common use in the English language. Use anglicized spellings for such words, or use the native spellings if they use the Latin alphabet (with or without diacritics)."
As such, this usage of Huế falls within the guidelines, even if it does use diacritics. Huế has been spelled as it would have been in Vietnamese, which uses a Latin alphabet. Also, consider the article title of El Niño, and countless others like it. There is no reason not to preserve original spelling and accent marks (diacritics) from a language that uses a Latin alphabet. Nam1123 18:20, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Please may someone add more pictures, preferably the ones from the Vietnamese version of this article. I'm still new to Wikipedia so I don't understand how to image upload.
I believe more images will help convey the seriousness of the event. Thank you! twinqletwinqle ( talk) 17:04, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Article reassessed and graded as start class. Referencing and appropriate inline citation guidelines not met. With appropriate citations and references, this article would easily qualify as B class if not higher. -- dashiellx ( talk) 11:39, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
In the part of Section 2 (Research) which reads, "There has been denial of the scale of the massacre by some 'anti-war' critics, such as ...", the placement of quotation marks around "anti-war" seems unnecessary and appears to compromise the neutrality of the article, as no clarification is given as to why the term "anti-war" should be considered only a nominal description for the critics that are subsequently described.
The use of the word "denial" in the sentence also compromises the article's neutrality by assuming the falsehood of the critics' claims without providing evidence as to why the claims are illegitimate.
An alternative wording would be, "Some anti-war critics, such as ... have suggested lower estimates of the scale of the massacre ...", preferably with a fuller explanation of the critics' reasons for their estimates. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.192.41.50 ( talk) 05:24, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
This article is hopelessly biased and not structured at all like any of the reasonable, historical pieces on wikipedia. Pike was predominantly a secondary and largely irrelevant source since his figures and the alleged NVA documents he produced completely disagreed with all other reporters in the South. The only Western journalist to actually photograph the graves was a Frenchman, with American's only getting second hand accounts from the South Vietnamese, either through their officials in Saigon or Hue itself. The governor of Hue claimed some 200 government workers executed along with 300 civilian casualties, during the course of the entire battle. Days later Saigon claimed 1,000 dead. And then later still Pike claims 6,000, with no additional evidence. This is what the majority of primary sources agree on, with only constant and spurious attempts at propaganda and self justification by the US Press afterwards. The people responsible for making this wikipedia article should probably avoid contributing to historical topics from this point forward because if this is the sort of result you get, than your methods are quite broken.-- Senor Freebie ( talk) 11:28, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
Plese show me: Why Gareth Porter's sources can't use (who said, what document said... and why said?). And don't use "Doubler standard POV" to threat me, The Time. My source is valid, and you haven't reason to remove it (excluding the true reason: you don't like this information) ( Wikipedia:Sources)Special:Contributions/113.190.46.130|113.190.46.130]] ( talk) 03:18, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
History.net is valid source (it was publishing by the Weider History Group, the world's largest publisher of history magazines). Don't remove it because you don't like it, @Quoc Viet 113.190.46.134 ( talk) 10:24, 20 March 2014 (UTC).
Please show me: Why PBS's documentary film is not valid sources? MiG29VN ( talk) 02:21, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
In history.net's source, have not "The official story of an indiscriminate slaughter of those who were considered to be unsympathetic to the NLF is a complete fabrication.". Yet, translation of the official Vietnamese campaign study of the Tet Offensive..." - This is the synthesis, i will removed these line to "Discovery" MiG29VN ( talk) 14:09, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
For Alje Vennema's sources, please read: http://books.google.com.vn/books?id=NNdWAAAAMAAJ&q=alje+Vennema+477&dq=alje+Vennema+477&hl=vi&sa=X&ei=8v8_U5uSC4qZiAec2ICAAQ&redir_esc=y http://books.google.com.vn/books?id=vv_67_p2Ds8C&q=alje+Vennema+477&dq=alje+Vennema+477&hl=vi&sa=X&ei=8v8_U5uSC4qZiAec2ICAAQ&redir_esc=y MiG29VN ( talk) 13:09, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
Plesea, Quoc Viet. History.net was qouted by you more than 10 times, and i didn't see you said that "undue weight". Don't used to "double standard" MiG29VN ( talk) 04:13, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
In wikipedia's law, and we agreed History.net and xxx.edu are the reliable sources. Don't do that, The Time. Do you think I don't follow this article? MiG29VN ( talk) 10:48, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
Add new source: http://books.google.com.vn/books?id=t3XO6FkWmEMC&printsec=frontcover&hl=vi#v=onepage&q&f=false MiG29VN ( talk) 12:51, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
Why is vlink not a valid source? It's an eyewitness account from Hue. How is that not valid simply because it's hosted on vlink? Where it the rule that vlink cannot be used as a source?
Please show me Vennema's figures in his book (27 graves, 2,397 bodies). I used google book but can't see them (I only see "203 bodies") http://books.google.com.vn/books?hl=vi&id=A2ZuAAAAMAAJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=2%2C397 MiG29VN ( talk) 11:09, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
Vlink is not valid source. I removed this "ref", please add new source. If nobody replace, i will remove these line MiG29VN ( talk) 11:16, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
@Andreas Philopater: please stop your "Fake Flag" MiG29VN ( talk) 16:31, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
And now, see Nguyễn, Minh Công. "Nhân Chứng Sống Kể Lại Cuộc Thảm Sát Tết Mậu Thân 1968 Tại Huế". Video Interview. WGBH TV Boston. Retrieved 5 April 2014.. So, anybody can tell me: Youtube is reliable source??? MiG29VN ( talk) 15:13, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
Even if the info was RS there is way too much Porter and other disputers. Its undue of the minority opinion. Some should be here but its too much right now regardless of whether it is RS or not. 88.104.216.130 ( talk) 19:26, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
@QuocViet: Please stop your vadalism. I didn't remove your information, I removed the unreliable source. If you add the relibale source, i will not remove
MiG29VN (
talk) 01:44, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
@MiGVN: The vandal cries about other people being vandals. Oh the irony! And someone guilty of making fake references altogether, comes along and blames others of "unreliable sources". Fake references which don't even contain the content claimed to be cited, like this one: http://books.google.com.vn/books?id=t3XO6FkWmEMC&printsec=frontcover&hl=vi#v=onepage&q&f=false. Theatres of violence: massacre, mass killing, and atrocity throughout history. Philip G Dwyer; Lyndall Ryan. New York : Berghahn Books, 2012. P. 216
@Quoc Viet: Please add the link or video clip (Nhung, Kim (28 February 2013). "Sự Thật Thảm Sát Mậu Thân 1968 - Nguyễn Lý Tưởng". Đài Truyền Hình SBTN TV News.). We can't confirm these information if you don't add the link MiG29VN ( talk) 04:22, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
Even though there is a section for dispute, I don't think Porter's work is worthy of being included. Scholars such as Marilyn B. Young may have a bias, but at least they attempt to provide evidence supporting their positions. Porter simply makes his evidence up. For example, (as I've written elsewhere), he lies about what Vennema writes in his book (14 graves with 20 bodies rather than 14 "trenches" with 101 bodies.) He claims the GVN's Political Warfare division concocted the Hue Massacre story out of whole cloth without providing any evidence to support his claim. Porter claims 250 bodies were found at Da Mai Creek, but 500 skulls were found. Porter claims that Pike claimed there were 428 bodies, but Pike merely stated that the authorities had "identified" 428 of the victims. I could go on (and I will in an article that I'm working on), but Porter is so unreliable that his work should have no place in Wikipedia.
In his IndoChina Chronicle article [1] Porter writes "Another major discovery of bodies at Da Mai Creek, a heavily wooded area ten miles south of Hue, in September 1969 remains shrouded in vagueness and contradictions. Even the number of bodies found remains something of a mystery. The official Pentagon account of the discovery shows that the number was approximately 250.21 But when Douglas Pike, the U.S. Information Agency's Vietnam specialist, reported the find a few months later, the figure had grown to 428.22"
I am working on obtaining a copy of the Pentagon report that he cites (his endnote 21), but the fact is that there were 500 skulls uncovered at Da Mai Creek (see Vennema 139-140 and the official GVN report), 428 of which were identified. Furthermore, his claim that the "figure had grown" to 428, citing Pike, is false. Here's what Pike wrote [2] "Local authorities later released a list of 428 names of persons whom they said had been positively identified from the creek bed remains. The communists' rationale for their excesses was elimination of traitors to the revolution. 11 The list of 428 victims breaks down as follows: 25 percent military: two officers, the rest NCO's and enlisted men; 25 percent students; 50 percent civil servants, village and hamlet officials, service personnel of various categories,and ordinary workers. "
Porter also writes "The elusiveness of Saigon's figures is significant in the view of the testimony of Alje Vennema, a doctor working for a Canadian medical team at Quang Ngai hospital, who happened to be in the Hue province hospital during the Tet Offensive and who made his own investigation of the grave sites.12 Vennema agreed that there were 14 graves at Gia Hoi High School but said there was a total of only 20 bodies in those graves. Vennema also stated that the other two sites in Gia Hoi district of Hue held only 19 bodies rather than the 77 claimed by the government, and that those in the area of the imperial tombs southwest of Hue contained only 29 bodies rather than 201 as claimed in the official report." Which is clearly false, because Vennema (129) cites 101 bodies in his very first mention of grave sites, then expands the count to 203. Vennema (140) also cites 500 skulls at Da Mai, which Porter should have known since he had access to Vennema's unpublished work.
Unlike, Mr. MiG29VN, who seems to think he can arbitrarily remove any cite or content he can't personally prove or doesn't agree with, I will leave it to those who are working on this article to decide whether or not the section needs to be reworked and all mention of Porter's work removed. Txantimedia ( talk) 20:03, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
Historian David Hunt posits that Douglas Pike's study for the U.S Mission was, "by any definition, a work of propaganda".
This is opinion, not fact. I think it should be striken. Txantimedia ( talk) 00:35, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
I think the Fallaci cite is incorrect. It reads "The Italian journalist Oriana Fallaci, citing a French pr[28] iest she spoke to in Huế, claimed at least 200 people, and perhaps as many as 1,100, who were killed following the US and ARVN reoccupation,"
What Fallaci wrote was "After the “Liberation,” at least 200 who were suspected of being Vietcong or of having collaborated with the Vietcong were killed by the South Vietnamese. Without even a summary trial, without any exact accusation. Some machine gun bursts and that was that. The massacre began as soon as the Marines had taken the Imperial Palace, and it’s only the corpses of those 200 that have been recovered. Altogether, there have been 1,100 killed. Mostly students, university teachers, priests. Intellectuals and religious people at Hue have never hidden their sympathy for the NLF."
I'm going to correct the content to read 200 killed. The 1,100 refers to the total dead, not total killed by ARVN. Txantimedia ( talk) 02:17, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
...has screwed up the formatting and removed the very sources he is requesting. His poor English, POV-pushing, and edit-warring is truly at an apex. TheTimesAreAChanging ( talk) 01:54, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
@MiG29VN I have done a lot of work getting all the cites correct. Now you have screwed them up AGAIN. Leave the damn cites alone!! Txantimedia ( talk) 02:47, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
And what does he do? Reverts a cite AGAIN!!! Txantimedia ( talk) 04:27, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
Should this be included? "Writer Hoang Phu Ngoc Tuong describes the events of the Hue massacre. He said: "The majority of these people who got killed and buried in this city, first of all, had been killed by the American bombing and strafing during the counterattacks... Bodies of Liberation soldiers whom we did not have time to retrieve were also taken to the mass graves... During the period from 1975—1977, we discovered that in the mass graves of the so-called massacre victims there were full of people who were wearing the lotus-shaped hats and wearing Liberation forces’ uniforms..."[35]"
His version is clearly at odds with the manifest evidence of bodies with arms and legs tied, shot in the back of the head etc. ISTM if the purpose of an article is to present a NPOV, this section does not qualify. Txantimedia ( talk) 02:23, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
I just added several paragraphs citing orders that the VC/NVA received, prior to the battle, instructing them to annihilate people. I wonder if those should be placed in a separate section? Maybe titled Pre-battle Orders or something like that?
I also have several cites for communist documents celebrating the murders. I wonder if these should be in a new section under Post-battle Documents or something similar?
Here's what I'm talking about: Under Executions during the course of the Communist occupation, I added the following:
Their actions were based on a series of orders issued by the High Command and the Southern PRG. In a 3500-page document issued on Jan 26th, 1968 by the Tri-Thien-Hue Political Directorate, the political cadres were given specific instructions:[13] 'Operating in close support of the regular military and guerrilla elements, the political cadre were to: destroy and disorganize the Republic of Viet-Nam's (RVN) administrative machinery "from province and district levels to the city wards, streets, and wharves;” motivate the people of Hue to take up arms, pursue the enemy, seize power, and establish a revolutionary government; motivate (recruit) local citizens for military and "security” forces .. transportation and supply activities, and to serve wounded soldiers . . . ;" "pursue to the end (and) punish "spies, reactionaries, and "tyrants" — i. e . , government administrators, civil servants, police, and others employed by or notable adherents of the Republic of Viet-Nam; and "maintain order and security in the city" — i. e . , control the population'
Another section read[14] "“Annihilate all spies, reactionaries, and foreign teachers (such as Americans and Germans) in the area. Break open prisons. Investigate cadre, soldiers and receptive civilians imprisoned by the enemy. Search for tyrants and reactionaries who are receiving treatment in hospitals"
In June 1968 American 1st Cavalry troops captured top secret PAVN documents that included a directive written two days before the battle began. It included the following instructions:[15] "“For the purpose of a lengthy occupation of Hue, we should immediately liberate the rural areas and annihilate the wicked GVN administrative personnel.
Specific Mission …. We must attack the enemy key agencies, economic installations, and lines of communications. We must also annihilate the enemy mobile troops, reactionary elements and tyrants.”
On Feb 1st, the provincial administration, having taken control of Hue, issued a directive that ordered the troops, in part,[16] “To wipe out all puppet administrative organs of the puppet Thieu-Ky (President Thieu, Vice President Ky) clique at all levels in the province, city and town down to every single hamlet.”
On the same day, the Liberation Front radio announced,[17] “We tell our compatriots that we are determined to topple the regime of the traitorous Thieu-Ky clique and to punish and annihilate those who have been massacring and oppressing our compatriots…we ask our compatriots to…help us arrest all the U.S.-puppet cruel henchmen.”
Under post-battle documents I would have eleven separate communist documents that celebrate the victory with information like this:
“We exterminated one member of the Dai Viet Party Committee, one Senator of South Viet-Nam, 50 Quoc Dan Dang party members, six Dai Viet Party members, thirteen Can Lao Nhan Vi Party members, three captains, four 1st lieutenants…1892 administrative personnel, 38 policemen, 790 tyrants, six captains and many non-commissioned officers.”
“We captured and exterminated thousands of people of the revolutionary network. From province to village we broke the enemy’s administrative grip for the people to rise.”
“Troop proselyting by the VC/NVA forces was not successful because the troops had to devote themselves to combat missions. Moreover, they were afraid of being discovered by the enemy. It was very difficult for them to handle POW’s so they executed the policy of “catch and kill.”
These are all documented with appropriate cites. Txantimedia ( talk) 21:15, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
I'll resume heavy contribs to this article soon, after I feel better... Nguyễn Quốc Việt ( talk) 01:25, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
There's a few places where this article could be improved by proper grammer and sentence structure. For example:
Under Executions during the course of the Communist occupation
The Viet Cong set up provisional authorities shortly after capturing Huế in the early hours of January 31, 1968, and was charged with removing the existing government administration from power within the city and replacing it with a "revolutionary administration." Working from lists of "cruel tyrants and reactionary elements" previously developed by VC intelligence officers, many people were to be rounded up following the initial hours of the attack. These included Army of the Republic of Vietnam (ARVN) soldiers, civil servants, political party members, local religious leaders, schoolteachers, American civilians and other international people.[11] Cadres called out the names on their lists over loudspeakers, ordering them to report to a local school. Those not reporting voluntarily were hunted down.[12]
I think this could be improved by doing the following. Break the first sentence into two.
The Viet Cong set up provisional authorities shortly after capturing Huế in the early hours of January 31, 1968. The provisional authorities were charged with removing the existing government administration from power within the city and replacing it with a "revolutionary administration." Working from lists of "cruel tyrants and reactionary elements" previously developed by VC intelligence officers, many people were to be rounded up following the initial hours of the attack. These included Army of the Republic of Vietnam (ARVN) soldiers, civil servants, political party members, local religious leaders, schoolteachers, American civilians and other international people.[11] Cadres called out the names on their lists over loudspeakers, ordering them to report to a local school. Those not reporting voluntarily were hunted down.[12]
An alternative would be to replace the and with that.
The Viet Cong set up provisional authorities shortly after capturing Huế in the early hours of January 31, 1968 that was charged with removing the existing government administration from power within the city and replacing it with a "revolutionary administration." Working from lists of "cruel tyrants and reactionary elements" previously developed by VC intelligence officers, many people were to be rounded up following the initial hours of the attack. These included Army of the Republic of Vietnam (ARVN) soldiers, civil servants, political party members, local religious leaders, schoolteachers, American civilians and other international people.[11] Cadres called out the names on their lists over loudspeakers, ordering them to report to a local school. Those not reporting voluntarily were hunted down.[12]
Under Course of the Occupation
According to Douglas Pike, these individuals, according to Viet Cong documents captured during and after the siege, were to be taken out of the city and held and punished for their “crimes against the Vietnamese people”. The disposition of those who were previously in control of the city was carefully laid out, and the lists were detailed and extensive. Those in the Saigon-based-state police apparatus at all levels were to be rounded up and held outside the city. High civilian and military officials were also removed from the city, both to await study of their individual cases.[13]:33
Move according to VC documents before these individuals or delete it. The pronoun these has lost its reference since I moved things around, so I think that part needs to be reworded. Perhaps "the individuals singled out on communist lists"?
Unless crimes against the Vietnamese people is a direct quote, it should probably be removed.
The reference supports the information in the paragraph but isn't a cite to Pike. The Pike cite should be added. Txantimedia ( talk) 18:30, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
Some details, which i revert:
ARVN repeatedly refused to journalist's demanded to see the graves, for example, a French photographer Marc Riboud, when he travelled to the alleged site, the helicopter's pilot refused to land, claiming that the area was "insecure." Riboud never saw the site, and he claimed the map coordinates of the grave sites was not resembling the one described by South Vietnamese officer. [1]
Moreover, many of the ARVN reports have contradictions on the number of bodies that were uncovered. At the Gia Hoi High School sites,
Stewart Harris, of the
London Times, reported the total bodies between 66 and 150, instead 200 bodies as American officer's report. ARVN's Tenth Political Warfare Battalion said there were 14 graves at the high school instead of 22, which would have reduced the total still further
[2]. Harris had taken the trouble to look at some of the graves and see the mutilated bodies. However, Harris claimed the number executed - only 200.Cite error: A <ref>
tag is missing the closing </ref>
(see the
help page). In 1974, Porter wrote a detailed criticism of
U.S. Information Agency official
Douglas Pike's account of the "Massacre at Hu? during the
Tet Offensive."
[3] Porter claimed that Pike manipulated official figures to make it appear that over 2,800 civilians were murdered by the
Viet Cong, and the numbers and causes of death were actually much different.
[3] He asserted that Douglas Pike was a "media manipulator par excellence," working in collusion with the ARVN 10th Political Warfare Battalion to manufacture the story of the massacre at the direction of Ambassador
Ellsworth Bunker. Additionally, he claimed that Pike overestimated the number of those killed by the VC cadres and that "thousands" of civilians killed in Hue "were in fact victims of American air power and of the ground fighting that raged in the hamlets, rather than NLF execution." His conclusion: "The official story of an indiscriminate slaughter of those who were considered to be unsympathetic to the NLF is a complete fabrication.".
[4]
[5]
Writer Hoang Phu Ngoc Tuong describes the events of the Hue massacre. He said: "The majority of these people who got killed and buried in this city, first of all, had been killed by the American bombing and strafing during the counterattacks... Bodies of Liberation soldiers whom we did not have time to retrieve were also taken to the mass graves... During the period from 1975—1977, we discovered that in the mass graves of the so-called massacre victims there were full of people who were wearing the lotus-shaped hats and wearing Liberation forces’ uniforms..." [6]
All of them have a reliable source (U.S. goverment's Congressional Record: Proceedings and Debates of the Congress, New York Times, WGBH's link), and no reason to remove them 113.190.46.114 ( talk) 02:24, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
He has added all of the cites I removed after discussion in talk. He did this without any warning or discussion with anyone.
First of all, Porter is not a reliable source. There are multiple verifiable lies in his articles, which I have documented previously and may be read in previous talk discussions. No cites for Porter should appear in this article due to the proven unreliability of his information.
Secondly, the section on writer Hoang Phu Ngoc Tuong is clearly communist propaganda that is in disagreement with all of the major sources. It should not be included. User:113.190.46.114 you are invited to discuss these issues before you make any more changes. Txantimedia ( talk) 02:36, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
I will add a new source, it is George Mason University's History News Network (see that http://hnn.us/article/23641) 42.113.103.248 ( talk) 14:33, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
5 Subcommittee to Investigate the Administration of the Internal Security Act and Other Internal Security Laws of the Committee on the Judiciary, The Human Cost of Communism in Vietnam, 2-3. Excerpts from Hosmer and Honey’s studies were reprinted in the document; their estimates appeared on pages 62-63 and 112, respectively. Eastland’s statement that “virtually every serious student of Vietnamese affairs” was in agreement about the “bloodbath” hypothesis was and is demonstrably false. While the word “virtually” admittedly lent the statement a certain degree of ambiguity, many academic scholars of Vietnam and Asia had challenged, in the years preceding the senator’s allegation, the likelihood of a massive bloodletting following an American defeat. In May 1970, for instance, the Committee of Concerned Asian Scholars issued “Twelve Questions on Vietnam,” a document intended to respond to some of the basic questions about the war that the organization believed were being clouded by official misinformation. One of the questions specifically addressed the bloodbath theory; the scholars concluded that, “looking at the question in historical perspective, there is reason to doubt the likelihood of a bloodbath.” The same section of the document also took issue with the Nixon administration’s statements about the “Hue Massacre.” Committee of Concerned Asian Scholars, Cornell University, “Twelve Questions on Vietnam,” May 1970, Folder 06, Box 08, Douglas Pike Collection: Unit 03 – Antiwar Activities, V.A., T.T.U. - See more at: http://hnn.us/article/23641#sthash.QSCleqeR.dpuf
That our evidences. So, your reason was gone? 113.190.46.114 ( talk) 02:06, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
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Please see that: http://hnn.us/article/23641. Is this a reliable source?
{{
helpme}}
- or better yet
ask for a third opinion directly or (for an issue like this)
file a notice at the Reliable Sources noticeboard. However, since you asked: I would say that the HNN article meets
Wikipedia's criteria for a reliable source. It is published through a medium with editorial oversight, hosted by a recognised educational institution, and written by a professional historian with appropriate academic qualifications.I added citation needed to these two paragraphs under Course of the Occupation:
Ordinary civil servants who worked for "the Saigon enemy" out of necessity, but did not oppose the communists, were destined for reeducation and later employment. Low-level civil servants who had at some point been involved in paramilitary activities were to be held for reeducation, but not employed. There are documented cases of individuals who were executed by the VC when they tried to hide or otherwise resisted during the early stages of Huế's occupation.[citation needed]
Within days of the capture, US Marine Corps (USMC) and US Army as well as ARVN infantry units were dispatched to counterattack and recaptured the city after weeks of fierce fighting, during which the city and its outlying areas were exposed to repeated shelling from US Navy ships off the coast and numerous bombing runs by U.S. aircraft. It was reported that during the USMC and ARVN attack, North Vietnam's forces had rounded up those individuals whose names it had previously collected and had them executed or sent North for "reeducation".[citation needed]
I'll try to find supporting cites, but I wasn't comfortable with these not being cited. Txantimedia ( talk) 15:19, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
Should the quotes of communist orders and after action reports be bolded? Or is that not NPOV? -- Txantimedia ( talk) 15:52, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
I edited the 4th paragraph of the eyewitnesses section. The original read "In an interview with Ho Ty, a VC commander who took part in the advanced planning of a general uprising, Oberdorfer reported Ty's statement that the Communist party "was particularly anxious to get those people at Phucam... The Catholics were considered particular enemies of ours." It was apparently this group whose remains were later found in the Da Mai Creek bed.[12] The murders of 500 people at Da Mai were authorized by PRG command "on grounds that the victims had been traitors to the revolution." I thought it was awkwardly worded so I changed it as follows: "Oberdorfer interviewed Ho Ty, a VC commander who took part in the advanced planning of a general uprising. He reported that Ty recounted that the Communist party "was particularly anxious to get those people at Phucam..." -- Txantimedia ( talk) 16:49, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
I moved some things around. I put the Bui Tin paragraph in Dispute and Denial, moved the two paragraphs about NVA documents into the Documents section and removed a sentence about Radio Hanoi that was cited again later in the same section. Hopefully all of this work will make the article more readable and easier to understand. -- Txantimedia ( talk) 17:04, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
I'm thinking that the Discovery section should precede the Executions and Dispute and Denial sections. Make sense? -- Txantimedia ( talk) 19:02, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
In my research I have found convincing evidence that Oriana Fallaci's account of "at least 200 people, and perhaps as many as 1,100, who were killed following the "liberation" of Huế by the US and ARVN." is most likely a false story planted by a communist agent.
She writes "After the ‘Liberation,’ at least 200 who were suspected of being Vietcong or of having collaborated with the Vietcong were killed by the South Vietnamese. Without even a summary trial, without any exact accusation. Some machine gun bursts and that was that. The massacre began as soon as the Marines had taken the Imperial Palace, and it’s only the corpses of those 200 that have been recovered.. Altogether, there have been 1,100 killed. Mostly students, university teachers, priests. Intellectuals and religious people at Hue have never hidden there sympathy fro the NLF.”
There are several problems with this story.
So the executions supposedly began two days AFTER orders had been given that no one would be executed without a military trial. After an extensive search of the NYT, WaPo and the Dallas Morning News, I found no corroborating evidence to support Fallaci's story. A review of existing literature uncovered three mentions of the story; in Karnow's Vietnam (pg. 519), Marilyn Young's The Vietnam Wars (pg. 219) and Scott Laderman's Tours of Vietnam. Neither Karnow nor Young provide any corroborating evidence or cite any source for the claim. Laderman cites Fallaci, Karnow and Young.
I also contacted someone, who wishes to remain an anonymous source and so cannot be used here, who was in a position to know if assassinations of collaborators were being conducted in Hue by the South Vietnamese. He told me that he was not aware of any such action and doubted that it had occurred. He said that the snipers that he captured where turned over the Provincial Interrogation Center. He was one of the people who searching for missing Americans and was an eyewitness of the disinterment of Stephen Miller, the US A.I.D. employee who was murdered by the VC/NVA.
This looks for all the world like a self-sustaining rumor that was never adequately investigated. The single source is Fallaci's interview of a supposed priest. Nothing else corroborates the story, and existing evidence refutes it.
The problem I have is that I don't know what to do with it. Fallaci's report is a legitimate cite. Is it appropriate to provide refutation along with it? That seems a little odd given that the Fallaci quote is in the Dispute and denial section.
Should I create a new article that deals with it? It seems a side issue to the massacre, but OTOH, it is part of the article.
Any advice would be appreciated. -- Txantimedia ( talk) 21:17, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
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Is Counterpunch reliable? I don't think it is. This recent article denies the massacre ever happened, even though it is widely documented that it did. It seems to deny atrocities committed by the Viet Cong. 173.67.106.134 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 08:09, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
The post is short of North Vietnam opinions. Most of them comes from perspective of USA and South Vietnam authorities, make this like a anti-NVA propaganda post. At least add the controvesary opinions. Actually there're documents about this event, but none of them are really reliable and prove that all the victims die from NVA butcher. There are tons of causes could leads to these deaths, especially US bombing and the gun fights between two armies. No one, even the witnesses (as they could lie), could be reliable source to generalise a vast region and event. Need more opinions besides USs and SV authorities. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 171.229.168.85 ( talk) 11:53, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
Added talkref. Please place any additional discussion topics above the below line.
References
Txantimedia ( talk) 03:39, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
This I found this book by Noam Chomsky claimed that the whole thing was American propaganda. Is it okay to be used as a source for additional information in the Dispute section? Nmphuong91 ( talk) 21:27, 3 February 2018 (UTC)
Why does the main editor of this article disapprove any articles or sources claiming that's the size of the massacare was way less or no massacre happened? Please provide pictures instead of adding up and making up numbers.
Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.160.26.207 ( talk) 04:01, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
But when there are sources, you claim those to be false? You use sources from US Armies but denied other sources that claim the opposite? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.160.26.117 ( talk) 04:52, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
The massacre is a fact, with or without publication of numbers of massacred people, with or without the publication of pictures. Any doubt/denial about the existence of the massacre at Hue would mean ultimately an affont to the victims of the massacre as well as to the loved ones of the victims. Beautiful Bavaria ( talk) 11:34, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
Someone recently anonmyously edited the Infobox, using an IP address based in New Jersey, to include, under perpetrators, " ARVN (alleged)" and claimed that the reason for the edit was "(according to dispute section)". There is nothing in the dispute section alleging that anyone has credibly claimed that the massacre was conducted by the ARVN. I have reverted the change. Please do not change it again without first discussing the reason for the change here in the talk section and providing supporting documentation as well as agreement from other editors. Any further attempts to deface the article will be reported. Txantimedia ( talk) 01:36, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
3/29/2022 - 2402:800:6114:22D8:C034:B526:E6DD:77FE - This IP is based in Hanoi
Whoever this is, please stop changing the infobox on this page without first discussing it on the talk page with the editors who maintain this page. Your change has been reverted because it contained false information. Txantimedia ( talk) 02:01, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
In the introduction there is a reference to the book "Việt Nam: A History from Earliest Times to the Present" This book has been heavily criticized for its sources, and has all red flags of a propaganda piece. I don't think it has any place on this website. Lucydesu ( talk) 09:27, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
There is no credible evidence that it was carried out by the North Vietnamese Army or the US Army. But the opening content firmly asserts that it was made by the North Vietnamese, making it look like anti-North Vietnamese propaganda in particular and the Communists say they are American and anti-Communist. Even on the website in Vietnamese, only mention is detected and not exactly which party is mentioned. on sensitive issues like this should be written in a neutral way rather than trying to push the blame on one side. And if you value freedom of speech, don't ban others if they disagree with you Thtruth ( talk) 18:11, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
So far, documents from both Vietnam and the United States have been responsible for each other for the cause and authenticity of this event. Meanwhile, the opposition to the war (such as Gareth Porter) and many Western scholars affirmed that the number and circumstances of the killers were amplified by the US and Vietnam Republic to serve to serve to serve Purpose of propaganda during the war. [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] The source from the Liberation Army, noted that they had buried many civilians dying due to heavy fire of the US and their soldiers died. [9] [10] There are also many other sources that the number of deaths in Hue in this campaign is due to firepower in the effort to recapture the US and the revenge of the Republic of Vietnam on the supporters of the Liberation Army. . [11] [12] [13]
This article is might have been written by a right-winger, which doesn't have any neutral opinions at all. LongnamXL35 ( talk) 15:40, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
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I have protected this page following a request by user:209.86.1.9 at WP:RFPP. Thryduulf 16:34, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
The specifics of this massacre have to do with the events of the occupation and not the battle, which should be dealt with in a nother article, not this one.
This is factualy incorrect as well as POV. Other sources besides South vietnames and US have argued that this was a premeditated slaughter. The other authorities who defend the NVA should be specificly named.
Hanoi's version bieng presented as fact, needs re wording with qualifiers.
Hanoi's version bieng presented as fact, needs re wording with qualifiers. And sources. TDC 19:53, July 23, 2005 (UTC)
Viet Cong Strategy of Terror, Douglas Pike
"Having covered the Viet Nam war over a period of five years for West German publications, I am now haunted by the role we journalists have played over there. Those of us who had wanted to find out knew of the evil nature of the Hanoi regime. We knew that, in 1956, close to 50,000 peasants were executed in North Vietnam. [As Nguyen Manh Tuong stated at the 1956 National Congress in Hanoi: 'It is better to kill 10 innocent people then let one enemy escape.'] We knew that after the division of the country nearly 1 million North Vietnamese had fled to the South.
"Many of us have seen the tortured and carved-up bodies of men, women and children executed by the Viet Cong in the early phases of the war. And many of us saw, in 1968, the mass graves of Hue, saw [take note, Mr. Patterson] the corpses of thousands of civilians still festively dressed for Tet, the Vietnamese New Year. Why, for Heavens sake, did we not report these expressions of deliberate North Vietnamese strategy at least as extensively as of the Mai Lai massacre and other such isolated incidents that were definitely not part of the U.S. policy in Viet Nam?
"What prompted us to make our readers believe that the Communists, once in power in all of Viet Nam, would behave benignly? What made us, first and foremost Anthony Lewis, belittle warnings by U.S. officials that a Communist victory would result in a massacre? Why did we ignore the fact that the man responsible for the executions of 50,000 peasants, Truong Chinh, was — and still is — one of the most powerful figures in Hanoi? What made us think that he and his comrades would have mercy for the vanquished South Vietnamese? What compelled, for example, Anthony Lewis shortly after the fall of Saigon to pat himself on the shoulder and write, "so much for the talk of a massacre?' True, no Cambodian-style massacre took place in Vietnam. It's just that Hanoi coolly drives its ethnic Chinese opponents into the sea. That's what Nasser threatened to do to the Israelis, no massacre intended, of course.
"Are we journalists not in part responsible for the death of the tens of thousands who drowned? And are we not in part responsible for the hostile reception accorded to those who survive? Did we not turn public opinion against them, portraying them, as one singularly ignoble cartoon did in the United States, as a bunch of pimps, whores, war profiteers, corrupt generals or, at best, outright reactionaries?
"Considering that today's Vietnam tragedy may have a lot to do with the way we reported yesterday's Vietnam tragedy; considering that we journalists might have our fair share of guilt for the inhuman way the world treats those who are being expelled by an inhuman regime which some of us had pictured as heroic, I think at least a little humility would be in order for us old Viet Nam hands, Mr. Lewis included. And if I did not strongly believe in everybody's right of free expression at any time, I would even admonish him to keep quiet about Indo-China, at least for a while".
How can this be worked into the article? TDC 19:57, July 23, 2005 (UTC)
Should this even be worked into the article? It would be largely redundant, and fit better in a biased news article than a (theoretically) neutral wikipedia page. Lucydesu ( talk) 09:29, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
User:TDC has enquired on my user page whether I am considering unprotecting this article. If others agree that this would not result in a resumption of the editing behaviour that got the article protected then please make a request for unprotection at WP:RFPP. Thryduulf 14:45, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Following the questions on my talk page:
I object to this article's contention that "others" believe that the number of victims in the massacre was exaggerated for "propaganda" purposes because the government never used it as a major rallying point for the war. In fact it should probably be mentioned how underreported the incident was in comparison to My Lai. If the government did use the incident in a manner that roused public opinion, please correct me. The same could be more aptly applied to My Lai by saying "some believe the anti-war left exaggerated the number of victims for propaganda purposes during major anti-war rallies". I also think it is wrong to state the number of victims ranged from hundreds to thousands because the generally accepted historical figure has been 3,000, again correct me if I'm mistaken. CJK 26 July 2005
"No one "confused the question," it was completely ignored." Well that clears things up. "...whole Hanoi government..." The Hanoi government is cited as a viable source? Okay... "You object to the "others" views being mentioned in the article." "Others" believe the Holocaust never happened too. "I'm also interested in your opinion on where this 3,000 figure came from" The book Vietnam: A History which is a highly respected work cites 3,000 along with The Atlas of American military history. You still have not cited a confirmed incident where the government deliberately exaggerated the claim or used the massacre for recruitment or in rallies. CJK 28 July 2005
The Massacre at Hue is the name given to describe the summary executions and mass killings that occurred during North Vietnam's capture, occupation and withdrawal from the city of Hue during the Tet Offensive, considered one of the longest and bloodiest battles of the Vietnam War. During the months that followed the battle, dozens of mass graves were discovered in and around Hue containing nearly 3000 civilians. In some of the mass graves victims were found bound together; some appeared tortured; others were even reported to have appeared buried alive. Estimates vary on the number executed, with a low of a couple hundred to a high of several thousand.
A number of US and South Vietnamese authorities took the discoveries, along with other evidence, as proof that a large-scale communist atrocity had been carried out in and around Hue during its four-week occupation. Some of these same sources also contended these killings were premeditated, and part of a large-scale purge of a whole social stratum. Other authorities contended a 'massacre' never occurred, and the numbers and circumstances of the casualties were exaggerated or fabricated for war propaganda reasons.
It would appear that I was completely wrong in my prior assessment of Oberdorfer’s work on Hue. Oberdorfer made three visits to Hue-one during the battle, another just after, and a third in December 1969. While there he examined graves, spoke with relatives of the victims, city officials (those who survived), church leaders, and captured VC. His work on Hue was not drawn from Pike in any way shape or form, and is in fact an independent corroboration of Pike’s assessment. TDC 16:25, August 3, 2005 (UTC)
I suggest breaking down the new subsection into three additional subsections along Pike's study and differentiation of the three major finds of graves. TDC 16:28, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
The first part states that: The NLF set up provisional authorities shortly after capturing Hue, and was charged with removing the existing government administration from power within the city and replacing it with a revolutionary administration. Working from lists of "cruel tyrants and reactionary elements" previously developed by VC intelligence officers, many people were to be rounded up following the initial hours of the attack.
and the las part states: There is considerable doubt that the NVA/VC had planned these executions beforehand.
How could there be such a large amount of pre-occupation planning of punitive actions taking place against citizens in Hue, and doubt that the executions were pre-planned?
You added the following content, "Philip W. Manhard, US province senior advisor in Hue, was taken to a POW camp by the NVA held until 1973. Manhard recounted that during the NVA withdrawal from Hue the NVA summarily executing anyone in their custody who resisted being taken out of the city or who was too old, too young, or two frail to make the journey to the camp." Since I know at least some of this to be true, I won't remove it for now, but may I have a source citation please? (Also, I see several typos... two -> too, executing -> executed, NVA held -> NVA and held) 165.247.213.27 18:16, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Foreign Affairs Oral History Project (Georgetown University) - 1974 interview TDC 18:43, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
Oberdorfer info: Washington Post; Dec 4 1969 A21, Dec 7 1969 A13
I've moved the following exerpt here for verification: "The mass graves within Hue itself were largely of those who had been picked up and executed for various " enemy of the people" offenses, or resisted the occupation."
The Pike citation is from the page where he discusses the initial mass grave that was examined, the one in Hue containing almost 1200 bodies. As for "considering Burchett's credentials," I don't. I only consider facts, as should you. If a talking dog says, "John Smith claims Bush is President," you should not dismiss what John Smith says, nor should you discount the alleged fact that Bush is president, simply because you have issues with talking dogs. 165.247.200.210 19:15, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
What is your source for this account? It differs greatly from mine, including the quotes? My insertion is based off of two articles he wrote for the Post on December 4th and 7th of 1969, and the quotes are direct, are there two versions of the story, and if not what is your source for the change of material. TDC 15:24, August 5, 2005 (UTC)
It was determined by piecing together bits of information from several sources that a large number of people had taken sanctuary from the battle in a local church. Several hundred of these people were ordered out to undergo indoctrination in the "liberated area," and told afterwards they would be allowed to return home. After marching the group south 9 kilometers, 20 of the people were seperated, tried, found guilty, executed and buried. The others were taken across the river and turned over to a local communist unit in an exchange that even included written receipts. It is probable that the remaining captives were to be re-educated and returned to Hue, but many were apparently shot days later when American or ARVN units came too close.
I have not found this in Pike’s study. TDC
Check pages 28-29 of his report and hypothesis to the US Mission in Saigon. 165.247.204.125 18:07, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
These individuals, according to VC documents captured during and after the seige, were to be taken out of the city and held and punished for their crimes against the Vietnamese people. The disposition of those who were previously in control of the city was carefully laid out, and the lists were detailed and extensive. Those in the Saigon-based government police apparatus at all levels were to be rounded up and held outside the city. High civilian and military officials were also removed from the city, both to await study of their individual cases. Ordinary civil servants working for "the Saigon enemy" out of necessity, but did not oppose the revolution, were destined for reeducation and later employment. Low-level civil servants who had at some point been involved in paramilitary activities were to be held for reeducation, but not employed.
I have also not found a source for this. TDC 15:42, August 5, 2005 (UTC)
Please be serious and rigourous in Political Sciences of Military and Strategic Studies and take the "Military Review. Us Army" as a reference work.
The Têt Offensive deployed in 3 Battles: Battle of Khê Sanh, Battle of Saigon and Battle of Huê. Go to the French version where I've put down all these.
Takima 21:18, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
These sections are bundled into really long paragraphs loaded with long sentences, many of the sentences containing two or three separate points. It all needs to be seriously revamped and broken up for ease of reading.
I recently added an image to this article that keeps getting removed by a user, supposedly because "its caption can not be verified". The image description clearly links to the Library of Congress Country Study: Vietnam page. The picture is in the "Second Indochina War" section (can not be linked directly because it is a temporary link). DHN 18:50, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
So who are the aggressors who killed the people of Huế? Or their identify a matter of dispute?
Who and what are the authorities that contend a massacre never occurred? They aren't identified in the article. There's one name, Gareth Porter, uncited, and it is the one place where the phrase propaganda and exaggeration are repeated. What are Porter's sources? However, the article text itself contradicts the suggestion made in the opening paragraph: the Porter doesn't have evidence there were fewer deaths than reported, or that the deaths were combat-related. So this first paragraph claim is unsupported. It's a mess. patsw 00:52, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure it's commonly referred as Hue not Huế in English, and for certain that at least one of the references listed is titled with "Hue" instead of "Huế", but listed as such in the section. Therefore, I think this is incorrect in general.
I respectfully disagree with your assertion. Please see the article on Huế as a whole on Wikipedia, for example. In addition, look at this from the Wikipedia Manual of Style- Foreign Words:
"Wikipedia prefers italics for phrases in other languages and for isolated foreign words that do not yet have common use in the English language. Use anglicized spellings for such words, or use the native spellings if they use the Latin alphabet (with or without diacritics)."
As such, this usage of Huế falls within the guidelines, even if it does use diacritics. Huế has been spelled as it would have been in Vietnamese, which uses a Latin alphabet. Also, consider the article title of El Niño, and countless others like it. There is no reason not to preserve original spelling and accent marks (diacritics) from a language that uses a Latin alphabet. Nam1123 18:20, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Please may someone add more pictures, preferably the ones from the Vietnamese version of this article. I'm still new to Wikipedia so I don't understand how to image upload.
I believe more images will help convey the seriousness of the event. Thank you! twinqletwinqle ( talk) 17:04, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Article reassessed and graded as start class. Referencing and appropriate inline citation guidelines not met. With appropriate citations and references, this article would easily qualify as B class if not higher. -- dashiellx ( talk) 11:39, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
In the part of Section 2 (Research) which reads, "There has been denial of the scale of the massacre by some 'anti-war' critics, such as ...", the placement of quotation marks around "anti-war" seems unnecessary and appears to compromise the neutrality of the article, as no clarification is given as to why the term "anti-war" should be considered only a nominal description for the critics that are subsequently described.
The use of the word "denial" in the sentence also compromises the article's neutrality by assuming the falsehood of the critics' claims without providing evidence as to why the claims are illegitimate.
An alternative wording would be, "Some anti-war critics, such as ... have suggested lower estimates of the scale of the massacre ...", preferably with a fuller explanation of the critics' reasons for their estimates. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.192.41.50 ( talk) 05:24, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
This article is hopelessly biased and not structured at all like any of the reasonable, historical pieces on wikipedia. Pike was predominantly a secondary and largely irrelevant source since his figures and the alleged NVA documents he produced completely disagreed with all other reporters in the South. The only Western journalist to actually photograph the graves was a Frenchman, with American's only getting second hand accounts from the South Vietnamese, either through their officials in Saigon or Hue itself. The governor of Hue claimed some 200 government workers executed along with 300 civilian casualties, during the course of the entire battle. Days later Saigon claimed 1,000 dead. And then later still Pike claims 6,000, with no additional evidence. This is what the majority of primary sources agree on, with only constant and spurious attempts at propaganda and self justification by the US Press afterwards. The people responsible for making this wikipedia article should probably avoid contributing to historical topics from this point forward because if this is the sort of result you get, than your methods are quite broken.-- Senor Freebie ( talk) 11:28, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
Plese show me: Why Gareth Porter's sources can't use (who said, what document said... and why said?). And don't use "Doubler standard POV" to threat me, The Time. My source is valid, and you haven't reason to remove it (excluding the true reason: you don't like this information) ( Wikipedia:Sources)Special:Contributions/113.190.46.130|113.190.46.130]] ( talk) 03:18, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
History.net is valid source (it was publishing by the Weider History Group, the world's largest publisher of history magazines). Don't remove it because you don't like it, @Quoc Viet 113.190.46.134 ( talk) 10:24, 20 March 2014 (UTC).
Please show me: Why PBS's documentary film is not valid sources? MiG29VN ( talk) 02:21, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
In history.net's source, have not "The official story of an indiscriminate slaughter of those who were considered to be unsympathetic to the NLF is a complete fabrication.". Yet, translation of the official Vietnamese campaign study of the Tet Offensive..." - This is the synthesis, i will removed these line to "Discovery" MiG29VN ( talk) 14:09, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
For Alje Vennema's sources, please read: http://books.google.com.vn/books?id=NNdWAAAAMAAJ&q=alje+Vennema+477&dq=alje+Vennema+477&hl=vi&sa=X&ei=8v8_U5uSC4qZiAec2ICAAQ&redir_esc=y http://books.google.com.vn/books?id=vv_67_p2Ds8C&q=alje+Vennema+477&dq=alje+Vennema+477&hl=vi&sa=X&ei=8v8_U5uSC4qZiAec2ICAAQ&redir_esc=y MiG29VN ( talk) 13:09, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
Plesea, Quoc Viet. History.net was qouted by you more than 10 times, and i didn't see you said that "undue weight". Don't used to "double standard" MiG29VN ( talk) 04:13, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
In wikipedia's law, and we agreed History.net and xxx.edu are the reliable sources. Don't do that, The Time. Do you think I don't follow this article? MiG29VN ( talk) 10:48, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
Add new source: http://books.google.com.vn/books?id=t3XO6FkWmEMC&printsec=frontcover&hl=vi#v=onepage&q&f=false MiG29VN ( talk) 12:51, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
Why is vlink not a valid source? It's an eyewitness account from Hue. How is that not valid simply because it's hosted on vlink? Where it the rule that vlink cannot be used as a source?
Please show me Vennema's figures in his book (27 graves, 2,397 bodies). I used google book but can't see them (I only see "203 bodies") http://books.google.com.vn/books?hl=vi&id=A2ZuAAAAMAAJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=2%2C397 MiG29VN ( talk) 11:09, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
Vlink is not valid source. I removed this "ref", please add new source. If nobody replace, i will remove these line MiG29VN ( talk) 11:16, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
@Andreas Philopater: please stop your "Fake Flag" MiG29VN ( talk) 16:31, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
And now, see Nguyễn, Minh Công. "Nhân Chứng Sống Kể Lại Cuộc Thảm Sát Tết Mậu Thân 1968 Tại Huế". Video Interview. WGBH TV Boston. Retrieved 5 April 2014.. So, anybody can tell me: Youtube is reliable source??? MiG29VN ( talk) 15:13, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
Even if the info was RS there is way too much Porter and other disputers. Its undue of the minority opinion. Some should be here but its too much right now regardless of whether it is RS or not. 88.104.216.130 ( talk) 19:26, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
@QuocViet: Please stop your vadalism. I didn't remove your information, I removed the unreliable source. If you add the relibale source, i will not remove
MiG29VN (
talk) 01:44, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
@MiGVN: The vandal cries about other people being vandals. Oh the irony! And someone guilty of making fake references altogether, comes along and blames others of "unreliable sources". Fake references which don't even contain the content claimed to be cited, like this one: http://books.google.com.vn/books?id=t3XO6FkWmEMC&printsec=frontcover&hl=vi#v=onepage&q&f=false. Theatres of violence: massacre, mass killing, and atrocity throughout history. Philip G Dwyer; Lyndall Ryan. New York : Berghahn Books, 2012. P. 216
@Quoc Viet: Please add the link or video clip (Nhung, Kim (28 February 2013). "Sự Thật Thảm Sát Mậu Thân 1968 - Nguyễn Lý Tưởng". Đài Truyền Hình SBTN TV News.). We can't confirm these information if you don't add the link MiG29VN ( talk) 04:22, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
Even though there is a section for dispute, I don't think Porter's work is worthy of being included. Scholars such as Marilyn B. Young may have a bias, but at least they attempt to provide evidence supporting their positions. Porter simply makes his evidence up. For example, (as I've written elsewhere), he lies about what Vennema writes in his book (14 graves with 20 bodies rather than 14 "trenches" with 101 bodies.) He claims the GVN's Political Warfare division concocted the Hue Massacre story out of whole cloth without providing any evidence to support his claim. Porter claims 250 bodies were found at Da Mai Creek, but 500 skulls were found. Porter claims that Pike claimed there were 428 bodies, but Pike merely stated that the authorities had "identified" 428 of the victims. I could go on (and I will in an article that I'm working on), but Porter is so unreliable that his work should have no place in Wikipedia.
In his IndoChina Chronicle article [1] Porter writes "Another major discovery of bodies at Da Mai Creek, a heavily wooded area ten miles south of Hue, in September 1969 remains shrouded in vagueness and contradictions. Even the number of bodies found remains something of a mystery. The official Pentagon account of the discovery shows that the number was approximately 250.21 But when Douglas Pike, the U.S. Information Agency's Vietnam specialist, reported the find a few months later, the figure had grown to 428.22"
I am working on obtaining a copy of the Pentagon report that he cites (his endnote 21), but the fact is that there were 500 skulls uncovered at Da Mai Creek (see Vennema 139-140 and the official GVN report), 428 of which were identified. Furthermore, his claim that the "figure had grown" to 428, citing Pike, is false. Here's what Pike wrote [2] "Local authorities later released a list of 428 names of persons whom they said had been positively identified from the creek bed remains. The communists' rationale for their excesses was elimination of traitors to the revolution. 11 The list of 428 victims breaks down as follows: 25 percent military: two officers, the rest NCO's and enlisted men; 25 percent students; 50 percent civil servants, village and hamlet officials, service personnel of various categories,and ordinary workers. "
Porter also writes "The elusiveness of Saigon's figures is significant in the view of the testimony of Alje Vennema, a doctor working for a Canadian medical team at Quang Ngai hospital, who happened to be in the Hue province hospital during the Tet Offensive and who made his own investigation of the grave sites.12 Vennema agreed that there were 14 graves at Gia Hoi High School but said there was a total of only 20 bodies in those graves. Vennema also stated that the other two sites in Gia Hoi district of Hue held only 19 bodies rather than the 77 claimed by the government, and that those in the area of the imperial tombs southwest of Hue contained only 29 bodies rather than 201 as claimed in the official report." Which is clearly false, because Vennema (129) cites 101 bodies in his very first mention of grave sites, then expands the count to 203. Vennema (140) also cites 500 skulls at Da Mai, which Porter should have known since he had access to Vennema's unpublished work.
Unlike, Mr. MiG29VN, who seems to think he can arbitrarily remove any cite or content he can't personally prove or doesn't agree with, I will leave it to those who are working on this article to decide whether or not the section needs to be reworked and all mention of Porter's work removed. Txantimedia ( talk) 20:03, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
Historian David Hunt posits that Douglas Pike's study for the U.S Mission was, "by any definition, a work of propaganda".
This is opinion, not fact. I think it should be striken. Txantimedia ( talk) 00:35, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
I think the Fallaci cite is incorrect. It reads "The Italian journalist Oriana Fallaci, citing a French pr[28] iest she spoke to in Huế, claimed at least 200 people, and perhaps as many as 1,100, who were killed following the US and ARVN reoccupation,"
What Fallaci wrote was "After the “Liberation,” at least 200 who were suspected of being Vietcong or of having collaborated with the Vietcong were killed by the South Vietnamese. Without even a summary trial, without any exact accusation. Some machine gun bursts and that was that. The massacre began as soon as the Marines had taken the Imperial Palace, and it’s only the corpses of those 200 that have been recovered. Altogether, there have been 1,100 killed. Mostly students, university teachers, priests. Intellectuals and religious people at Hue have never hidden their sympathy for the NLF."
I'm going to correct the content to read 200 killed. The 1,100 refers to the total dead, not total killed by ARVN. Txantimedia ( talk) 02:17, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
...has screwed up the formatting and removed the very sources he is requesting. His poor English, POV-pushing, and edit-warring is truly at an apex. TheTimesAreAChanging ( talk) 01:54, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
@MiG29VN I have done a lot of work getting all the cites correct. Now you have screwed them up AGAIN. Leave the damn cites alone!! Txantimedia ( talk) 02:47, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
And what does he do? Reverts a cite AGAIN!!! Txantimedia ( talk) 04:27, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
Should this be included? "Writer Hoang Phu Ngoc Tuong describes the events of the Hue massacre. He said: "The majority of these people who got killed and buried in this city, first of all, had been killed by the American bombing and strafing during the counterattacks... Bodies of Liberation soldiers whom we did not have time to retrieve were also taken to the mass graves... During the period from 1975—1977, we discovered that in the mass graves of the so-called massacre victims there were full of people who were wearing the lotus-shaped hats and wearing Liberation forces’ uniforms..."[35]"
His version is clearly at odds with the manifest evidence of bodies with arms and legs tied, shot in the back of the head etc. ISTM if the purpose of an article is to present a NPOV, this section does not qualify. Txantimedia ( talk) 02:23, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
I just added several paragraphs citing orders that the VC/NVA received, prior to the battle, instructing them to annihilate people. I wonder if those should be placed in a separate section? Maybe titled Pre-battle Orders or something like that?
I also have several cites for communist documents celebrating the murders. I wonder if these should be in a new section under Post-battle Documents or something similar?
Here's what I'm talking about: Under Executions during the course of the Communist occupation, I added the following:
Their actions were based on a series of orders issued by the High Command and the Southern PRG. In a 3500-page document issued on Jan 26th, 1968 by the Tri-Thien-Hue Political Directorate, the political cadres were given specific instructions:[13] 'Operating in close support of the regular military and guerrilla elements, the political cadre were to: destroy and disorganize the Republic of Viet-Nam's (RVN) administrative machinery "from province and district levels to the city wards, streets, and wharves;” motivate the people of Hue to take up arms, pursue the enemy, seize power, and establish a revolutionary government; motivate (recruit) local citizens for military and "security” forces .. transportation and supply activities, and to serve wounded soldiers . . . ;" "pursue to the end (and) punish "spies, reactionaries, and "tyrants" — i. e . , government administrators, civil servants, police, and others employed by or notable adherents of the Republic of Viet-Nam; and "maintain order and security in the city" — i. e . , control the population'
Another section read[14] "“Annihilate all spies, reactionaries, and foreign teachers (such as Americans and Germans) in the area. Break open prisons. Investigate cadre, soldiers and receptive civilians imprisoned by the enemy. Search for tyrants and reactionaries who are receiving treatment in hospitals"
In June 1968 American 1st Cavalry troops captured top secret PAVN documents that included a directive written two days before the battle began. It included the following instructions:[15] "“For the purpose of a lengthy occupation of Hue, we should immediately liberate the rural areas and annihilate the wicked GVN administrative personnel.
Specific Mission …. We must attack the enemy key agencies, economic installations, and lines of communications. We must also annihilate the enemy mobile troops, reactionary elements and tyrants.”
On Feb 1st, the provincial administration, having taken control of Hue, issued a directive that ordered the troops, in part,[16] “To wipe out all puppet administrative organs of the puppet Thieu-Ky (President Thieu, Vice President Ky) clique at all levels in the province, city and town down to every single hamlet.”
On the same day, the Liberation Front radio announced,[17] “We tell our compatriots that we are determined to topple the regime of the traitorous Thieu-Ky clique and to punish and annihilate those who have been massacring and oppressing our compatriots…we ask our compatriots to…help us arrest all the U.S.-puppet cruel henchmen.”
Under post-battle documents I would have eleven separate communist documents that celebrate the victory with information like this:
“We exterminated one member of the Dai Viet Party Committee, one Senator of South Viet-Nam, 50 Quoc Dan Dang party members, six Dai Viet Party members, thirteen Can Lao Nhan Vi Party members, three captains, four 1st lieutenants…1892 administrative personnel, 38 policemen, 790 tyrants, six captains and many non-commissioned officers.”
“We captured and exterminated thousands of people of the revolutionary network. From province to village we broke the enemy’s administrative grip for the people to rise.”
“Troop proselyting by the VC/NVA forces was not successful because the troops had to devote themselves to combat missions. Moreover, they were afraid of being discovered by the enemy. It was very difficult for them to handle POW’s so they executed the policy of “catch and kill.”
These are all documented with appropriate cites. Txantimedia ( talk) 21:15, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
I'll resume heavy contribs to this article soon, after I feel better... Nguyễn Quốc Việt ( talk) 01:25, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
There's a few places where this article could be improved by proper grammer and sentence structure. For example:
Under Executions during the course of the Communist occupation
The Viet Cong set up provisional authorities shortly after capturing Huế in the early hours of January 31, 1968, and was charged with removing the existing government administration from power within the city and replacing it with a "revolutionary administration." Working from lists of "cruel tyrants and reactionary elements" previously developed by VC intelligence officers, many people were to be rounded up following the initial hours of the attack. These included Army of the Republic of Vietnam (ARVN) soldiers, civil servants, political party members, local religious leaders, schoolteachers, American civilians and other international people.[11] Cadres called out the names on their lists over loudspeakers, ordering them to report to a local school. Those not reporting voluntarily were hunted down.[12]
I think this could be improved by doing the following. Break the first sentence into two.
The Viet Cong set up provisional authorities shortly after capturing Huế in the early hours of January 31, 1968. The provisional authorities were charged with removing the existing government administration from power within the city and replacing it with a "revolutionary administration." Working from lists of "cruel tyrants and reactionary elements" previously developed by VC intelligence officers, many people were to be rounded up following the initial hours of the attack. These included Army of the Republic of Vietnam (ARVN) soldiers, civil servants, political party members, local religious leaders, schoolteachers, American civilians and other international people.[11] Cadres called out the names on their lists over loudspeakers, ordering them to report to a local school. Those not reporting voluntarily were hunted down.[12]
An alternative would be to replace the and with that.
The Viet Cong set up provisional authorities shortly after capturing Huế in the early hours of January 31, 1968 that was charged with removing the existing government administration from power within the city and replacing it with a "revolutionary administration." Working from lists of "cruel tyrants and reactionary elements" previously developed by VC intelligence officers, many people were to be rounded up following the initial hours of the attack. These included Army of the Republic of Vietnam (ARVN) soldiers, civil servants, political party members, local religious leaders, schoolteachers, American civilians and other international people.[11] Cadres called out the names on their lists over loudspeakers, ordering them to report to a local school. Those not reporting voluntarily were hunted down.[12]
Under Course of the Occupation
According to Douglas Pike, these individuals, according to Viet Cong documents captured during and after the siege, were to be taken out of the city and held and punished for their “crimes against the Vietnamese people”. The disposition of those who were previously in control of the city was carefully laid out, and the lists were detailed and extensive. Those in the Saigon-based-state police apparatus at all levels were to be rounded up and held outside the city. High civilian and military officials were also removed from the city, both to await study of their individual cases.[13]:33
Move according to VC documents before these individuals or delete it. The pronoun these has lost its reference since I moved things around, so I think that part needs to be reworded. Perhaps "the individuals singled out on communist lists"?
Unless crimes against the Vietnamese people is a direct quote, it should probably be removed.
The reference supports the information in the paragraph but isn't a cite to Pike. The Pike cite should be added. Txantimedia ( talk) 18:30, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
Some details, which i revert:
ARVN repeatedly refused to journalist's demanded to see the graves, for example, a French photographer Marc Riboud, when he travelled to the alleged site, the helicopter's pilot refused to land, claiming that the area was "insecure." Riboud never saw the site, and he claimed the map coordinates of the grave sites was not resembling the one described by South Vietnamese officer. [1]
Moreover, many of the ARVN reports have contradictions on the number of bodies that were uncovered. At the Gia Hoi High School sites,
Stewart Harris, of the
London Times, reported the total bodies between 66 and 150, instead 200 bodies as American officer's report. ARVN's Tenth Political Warfare Battalion said there were 14 graves at the high school instead of 22, which would have reduced the total still further
[2]. Harris had taken the trouble to look at some of the graves and see the mutilated bodies. However, Harris claimed the number executed - only 200.Cite error: A <ref>
tag is missing the closing </ref>
(see the
help page). In 1974, Porter wrote a detailed criticism of
U.S. Information Agency official
Douglas Pike's account of the "Massacre at Hu? during the
Tet Offensive."
[3] Porter claimed that Pike manipulated official figures to make it appear that over 2,800 civilians were murdered by the
Viet Cong, and the numbers and causes of death were actually much different.
[3] He asserted that Douglas Pike was a "media manipulator par excellence," working in collusion with the ARVN 10th Political Warfare Battalion to manufacture the story of the massacre at the direction of Ambassador
Ellsworth Bunker. Additionally, he claimed that Pike overestimated the number of those killed by the VC cadres and that "thousands" of civilians killed in Hue "were in fact victims of American air power and of the ground fighting that raged in the hamlets, rather than NLF execution." His conclusion: "The official story of an indiscriminate slaughter of those who were considered to be unsympathetic to the NLF is a complete fabrication.".
[4]
[5]
Writer Hoang Phu Ngoc Tuong describes the events of the Hue massacre. He said: "The majority of these people who got killed and buried in this city, first of all, had been killed by the American bombing and strafing during the counterattacks... Bodies of Liberation soldiers whom we did not have time to retrieve were also taken to the mass graves... During the period from 1975—1977, we discovered that in the mass graves of the so-called massacre victims there were full of people who were wearing the lotus-shaped hats and wearing Liberation forces’ uniforms..." [6]
All of them have a reliable source (U.S. goverment's Congressional Record: Proceedings and Debates of the Congress, New York Times, WGBH's link), and no reason to remove them 113.190.46.114 ( talk) 02:24, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
He has added all of the cites I removed after discussion in talk. He did this without any warning or discussion with anyone.
First of all, Porter is not a reliable source. There are multiple verifiable lies in his articles, which I have documented previously and may be read in previous talk discussions. No cites for Porter should appear in this article due to the proven unreliability of his information.
Secondly, the section on writer Hoang Phu Ngoc Tuong is clearly communist propaganda that is in disagreement with all of the major sources. It should not be included. User:113.190.46.114 you are invited to discuss these issues before you make any more changes. Txantimedia ( talk) 02:36, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
I will add a new source, it is George Mason University's History News Network (see that http://hnn.us/article/23641) 42.113.103.248 ( talk) 14:33, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
5 Subcommittee to Investigate the Administration of the Internal Security Act and Other Internal Security Laws of the Committee on the Judiciary, The Human Cost of Communism in Vietnam, 2-3. Excerpts from Hosmer and Honey’s studies were reprinted in the document; their estimates appeared on pages 62-63 and 112, respectively. Eastland’s statement that “virtually every serious student of Vietnamese affairs” was in agreement about the “bloodbath” hypothesis was and is demonstrably false. While the word “virtually” admittedly lent the statement a certain degree of ambiguity, many academic scholars of Vietnam and Asia had challenged, in the years preceding the senator’s allegation, the likelihood of a massive bloodletting following an American defeat. In May 1970, for instance, the Committee of Concerned Asian Scholars issued “Twelve Questions on Vietnam,” a document intended to respond to some of the basic questions about the war that the organization believed were being clouded by official misinformation. One of the questions specifically addressed the bloodbath theory; the scholars concluded that, “looking at the question in historical perspective, there is reason to doubt the likelihood of a bloodbath.” The same section of the document also took issue with the Nixon administration’s statements about the “Hue Massacre.” Committee of Concerned Asian Scholars, Cornell University, “Twelve Questions on Vietnam,” May 1970, Folder 06, Box 08, Douglas Pike Collection: Unit 03 – Antiwar Activities, V.A., T.T.U. - See more at: http://hnn.us/article/23641#sthash.QSCleqeR.dpuf
That our evidences. So, your reason was gone? 113.190.46.114 ( talk) 02:06, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
This request for help from administrators has been answered. If you need more help or have additional questions, please reapply the {{admin help}} template, or contact the responding user(s) directly on their own user talk page. |
Please see that: http://hnn.us/article/23641. Is this a reliable source?
{{
helpme}}
- or better yet
ask for a third opinion directly or (for an issue like this)
file a notice at the Reliable Sources noticeboard. However, since you asked: I would say that the HNN article meets
Wikipedia's criteria for a reliable source. It is published through a medium with editorial oversight, hosted by a recognised educational institution, and written by a professional historian with appropriate academic qualifications.I added citation needed to these two paragraphs under Course of the Occupation:
Ordinary civil servants who worked for "the Saigon enemy" out of necessity, but did not oppose the communists, were destined for reeducation and later employment. Low-level civil servants who had at some point been involved in paramilitary activities were to be held for reeducation, but not employed. There are documented cases of individuals who were executed by the VC when they tried to hide or otherwise resisted during the early stages of Huế's occupation.[citation needed]
Within days of the capture, US Marine Corps (USMC) and US Army as well as ARVN infantry units were dispatched to counterattack and recaptured the city after weeks of fierce fighting, during which the city and its outlying areas were exposed to repeated shelling from US Navy ships off the coast and numerous bombing runs by U.S. aircraft. It was reported that during the USMC and ARVN attack, North Vietnam's forces had rounded up those individuals whose names it had previously collected and had them executed or sent North for "reeducation".[citation needed]
I'll try to find supporting cites, but I wasn't comfortable with these not being cited. Txantimedia ( talk) 15:19, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
Should the quotes of communist orders and after action reports be bolded? Or is that not NPOV? -- Txantimedia ( talk) 15:52, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
I edited the 4th paragraph of the eyewitnesses section. The original read "In an interview with Ho Ty, a VC commander who took part in the advanced planning of a general uprising, Oberdorfer reported Ty's statement that the Communist party "was particularly anxious to get those people at Phucam... The Catholics were considered particular enemies of ours." It was apparently this group whose remains were later found in the Da Mai Creek bed.[12] The murders of 500 people at Da Mai were authorized by PRG command "on grounds that the victims had been traitors to the revolution." I thought it was awkwardly worded so I changed it as follows: "Oberdorfer interviewed Ho Ty, a VC commander who took part in the advanced planning of a general uprising. He reported that Ty recounted that the Communist party "was particularly anxious to get those people at Phucam..." -- Txantimedia ( talk) 16:49, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
I moved some things around. I put the Bui Tin paragraph in Dispute and Denial, moved the two paragraphs about NVA documents into the Documents section and removed a sentence about Radio Hanoi that was cited again later in the same section. Hopefully all of this work will make the article more readable and easier to understand. -- Txantimedia ( talk) 17:04, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
I'm thinking that the Discovery section should precede the Executions and Dispute and Denial sections. Make sense? -- Txantimedia ( talk) 19:02, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
In my research I have found convincing evidence that Oriana Fallaci's account of "at least 200 people, and perhaps as many as 1,100, who were killed following the "liberation" of Huế by the US and ARVN." is most likely a false story planted by a communist agent.
She writes "After the ‘Liberation,’ at least 200 who were suspected of being Vietcong or of having collaborated with the Vietcong were killed by the South Vietnamese. Without even a summary trial, without any exact accusation. Some machine gun bursts and that was that. The massacre began as soon as the Marines had taken the Imperial Palace, and it’s only the corpses of those 200 that have been recovered.. Altogether, there have been 1,100 killed. Mostly students, university teachers, priests. Intellectuals and religious people at Hue have never hidden there sympathy fro the NLF.”
There are several problems with this story.
So the executions supposedly began two days AFTER orders had been given that no one would be executed without a military trial. After an extensive search of the NYT, WaPo and the Dallas Morning News, I found no corroborating evidence to support Fallaci's story. A review of existing literature uncovered three mentions of the story; in Karnow's Vietnam (pg. 519), Marilyn Young's The Vietnam Wars (pg. 219) and Scott Laderman's Tours of Vietnam. Neither Karnow nor Young provide any corroborating evidence or cite any source for the claim. Laderman cites Fallaci, Karnow and Young.
I also contacted someone, who wishes to remain an anonymous source and so cannot be used here, who was in a position to know if assassinations of collaborators were being conducted in Hue by the South Vietnamese. He told me that he was not aware of any such action and doubted that it had occurred. He said that the snipers that he captured where turned over the Provincial Interrogation Center. He was one of the people who searching for missing Americans and was an eyewitness of the disinterment of Stephen Miller, the US A.I.D. employee who was murdered by the VC/NVA.
This looks for all the world like a self-sustaining rumor that was never adequately investigated. The single source is Fallaci's interview of a supposed priest. Nothing else corroborates the story, and existing evidence refutes it.
The problem I have is that I don't know what to do with it. Fallaci's report is a legitimate cite. Is it appropriate to provide refutation along with it? That seems a little odd given that the Fallaci quote is in the Dispute and denial section.
Should I create a new article that deals with it? It seems a side issue to the massacre, but OTOH, it is part of the article.
Any advice would be appreciated. -- Txantimedia ( talk) 21:17, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
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Is Counterpunch reliable? I don't think it is. This recent article denies the massacre ever happened, even though it is widely documented that it did. It seems to deny atrocities committed by the Viet Cong. 173.67.106.134 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 08:09, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
The post is short of North Vietnam opinions. Most of them comes from perspective of USA and South Vietnam authorities, make this like a anti-NVA propaganda post. At least add the controvesary opinions. Actually there're documents about this event, but none of them are really reliable and prove that all the victims die from NVA butcher. There are tons of causes could leads to these deaths, especially US bombing and the gun fights between two armies. No one, even the witnesses (as they could lie), could be reliable source to generalise a vast region and event. Need more opinions besides USs and SV authorities. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 171.229.168.85 ( talk) 11:53, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
Added talkref. Please place any additional discussion topics above the below line.
References
Txantimedia ( talk) 03:39, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
This I found this book by Noam Chomsky claimed that the whole thing was American propaganda. Is it okay to be used as a source for additional information in the Dispute section? Nmphuong91 ( talk) 21:27, 3 February 2018 (UTC)
Why does the main editor of this article disapprove any articles or sources claiming that's the size of the massacare was way less or no massacre happened? Please provide pictures instead of adding up and making up numbers.
Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.160.26.207 ( talk) 04:01, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
But when there are sources, you claim those to be false? You use sources from US Armies but denied other sources that claim the opposite? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.160.26.117 ( talk) 04:52, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
The massacre is a fact, with or without publication of numbers of massacred people, with or without the publication of pictures. Any doubt/denial about the existence of the massacre at Hue would mean ultimately an affont to the victims of the massacre as well as to the loved ones of the victims. Beautiful Bavaria ( talk) 11:34, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
Someone recently anonmyously edited the Infobox, using an IP address based in New Jersey, to include, under perpetrators, " ARVN (alleged)" and claimed that the reason for the edit was "(according to dispute section)". There is nothing in the dispute section alleging that anyone has credibly claimed that the massacre was conducted by the ARVN. I have reverted the change. Please do not change it again without first discussing the reason for the change here in the talk section and providing supporting documentation as well as agreement from other editors. Any further attempts to deface the article will be reported. Txantimedia ( talk) 01:36, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
3/29/2022 - 2402:800:6114:22D8:C034:B526:E6DD:77FE - This IP is based in Hanoi
Whoever this is, please stop changing the infobox on this page without first discussing it on the talk page with the editors who maintain this page. Your change has been reverted because it contained false information. Txantimedia ( talk) 02:01, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
In the introduction there is a reference to the book "Việt Nam: A History from Earliest Times to the Present" This book has been heavily criticized for its sources, and has all red flags of a propaganda piece. I don't think it has any place on this website. Lucydesu ( talk) 09:27, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
There is no credible evidence that it was carried out by the North Vietnamese Army or the US Army. But the opening content firmly asserts that it was made by the North Vietnamese, making it look like anti-North Vietnamese propaganda in particular and the Communists say they are American and anti-Communist. Even on the website in Vietnamese, only mention is detected and not exactly which party is mentioned. on sensitive issues like this should be written in a neutral way rather than trying to push the blame on one side. And if you value freedom of speech, don't ban others if they disagree with you Thtruth ( talk) 18:11, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
So far, documents from both Vietnam and the United States have been responsible for each other for the cause and authenticity of this event. Meanwhile, the opposition to the war (such as Gareth Porter) and many Western scholars affirmed that the number and circumstances of the killers were amplified by the US and Vietnam Republic to serve to serve to serve Purpose of propaganda during the war. [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] The source from the Liberation Army, noted that they had buried many civilians dying due to heavy fire of the US and their soldiers died. [9] [10] There are also many other sources that the number of deaths in Hue in this campaign is due to firepower in the effort to recapture the US and the revenge of the Republic of Vietnam on the supporters of the Liberation Army. . [11] [12] [13]
This article is might have been written by a right-winger, which doesn't have any neutral opinions at all. LongnamXL35 ( talk) 15:40, 1 April 2024 (UTC)