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Archive 1 |
The article lists the dozer as a modified Komatsu, though the first photo's caption states it was a caterpillar... Someone needs to correct this. rmosler ( talk) 02:41, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
This article is fine the way it is. The events is written in a way that the highest number of people can agree on. The cops lied about the incident, and as a result, most negative media reports were inconsistent. The article paints an accurate portrait of Marvin Heemeyer.
I do believe, sorry to the above, that it is still biased. I also believe that NPOV with any article is possible. The best way to NPOV is to list facts instead of implications, ie "Bob was found guilty of murdering Tom" Vs. "Bob murdered Tom." We do not really know if he really murdered Tom or not, (implication), however, it is a fact if he was found guilty of it (court records), hence that's what you put.
I'm going to run through it and add "some bellive"s and such to the controversial portions to make it NPOV, and change the template. Then, if no one minds, say a week or so later, I'm going to try and take down the template completely. Sim 17:52, August 6, 2005 (UTC)
"Some Americans now consider Marvin Heemeyer an American hero, believing that he sacrificed himself to promote American values, expose tyranny, and fight corruption, following the path of the American founding fathers."
Who believes this stuff? Is this a mainstream view, or even close to it? Is there some kind of reference we can see? I mean, following the path of the founding fathers? He wrecked a town out of a personal vendetta and then shot himself. Everyking 05:54, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, I attempted to edit the new Corruption in Granby section to make it less POV and to actually correspond with the cited source. The quote of "everyone be glad he's gone" doesn't exist in the citation, for one, and the "turn it into something fun" statement is clearly speculation by the ABC affiliate source. There's also no citations to support the city's attempts to minimize what happened to this fellow -- besides the one, and one citation does not an argument make. In all fairness, I think the guy probably got a bad shake from a possibly corrupt small town, but the section I edited (and which was subsequently reverted by the editor who added it) is quite POV as it stands now, and I'm not going to bother with a revert war. As such, I'm tagging the section NPOV and adding some citation requests and dubious notes. -- FreelanceWizard 04:37, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
The paragraph ought to stay deleted:
-- Scott eiπ 20:15, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
That explains a LOT about why the "town council" was trying to erase Heeymer. Turns out in a news report that the mayor was in the pocket of the very company that destroyed the man.
"Heemeyer's rampage, as press and news media have widely reported, was precipitated by a four year losing battle with the town council of Granby, who, despite widespread opposition from residents, altered town zoning codes and ordinances, to allow Mountain Park Concrete to build and operate a cement batch plant next to Heemeyer's muffler shop, a move which forced Heemeyer out of business due to the dust and pollution of the plant. Mayor Wang presided over most of the council's forceful actions"
"Many residents have been and still are contending that Wang and the Granby Town Council accepted bribes and payoffs from Mountain Park Concrete"
"At least two Granby residents have said, on the condition of anonymity, that Wang and council members have refused to acknowledge whether or not they have received any financial contributions to their election campaigns."
"It has been confirmed that Heemeyer does not have any criminal record, so it remains, "Why does the Colorado Bureau of Investigation have a file on Marvin Heemeyer? Is it for a concealed carry gun permit? Or, as some concerned citizens have said, 'Wang, the town council and certain Grand county authorities have created an 'enemies' list of the people who are politically outspoken and who have opposed various actions of the town council or the county commissioners."
The actions of the town council are a proven attempt to eliminate culpability for Mayor Wang's actions. http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-12405.html
Ex-Nintendo Employee 22:36, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
The article only appears biased because (I would hope) the readers are biased against money grubbing pencil pushers with no sense of accountablity. Facts are facts, if the expression of those facts shine an unsavory light on the parties involved, there is a reason. Anyone who denies this man was wronged is delusional. The sad part is that the building were insured and the town got to upgrade.
68.227.242.182
22:08, 9 August 2006 (UTC)Simon
Free clue: "POV" means "point of view"; that is, a personal viewpoint you keep crowbarring in, no matter how much you rant, rave, and wave your hands about "reliable sources". Which you fail, anyways, since your direct source for your semi-libellous claims is ranting on some message forum that fails the Reliable sources standard by a wide margin, and the actual reliable source you employ as ass-covering supports none of the mud-slinging you attempt to insert.
Here, we have basic fact-checking and neutrality-of-presentation standards: your inability to understand this is not my problem, but your attempt to insert your opinion disguised as fact is, and will be reverted. -- Calton | Talk 05:57, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Stop right there. Step back form the keyboard, keep you hands in sight.
OK, hurling insults is not going to solve anything. Let's get back to basics here: everything which is added to this article needs to be verifiable from reliable sources. Any statements made by individuals need to be attributed by name, and those individuals need to be of objectively provable authority. This person is dead but the officials named and alluded to are not, WP:LIVING applies. As long as everything is cited and supportable no problem, but uncited or poorly sourced information about living individuals should be removed immediately from the article, and its talk page, and this is explicitly exempt from WP:3RR.
Nothing should be added to the article at this point without consensus here, anything deleted which is critical of living individuals must not be reinserted without full and authoritative attribution, and you should as a matter of urgency get this into some dispute resolution process which will attract more eyes. Just zis Guy you know? 14:15, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I got here via the RFC process.
First of all, this article is a mess perhaps as a result of the POV edit warring. The "Background Information" section is not "background", it's an overview. As a result, you wind up reading about the rampage twice. The "Family and Friends" section could be named better. The "Rampage" section contains a couple of sentences that should be in a separate section. etc. etc. In general, the narrative is choppy and does not flow well at all.
Also, I have scanned the comments on this talk page briefly. It's clear that there are different POVs regarding whether Marvin was a criminal, a nutcase or a hero. However, as a result of the POV debate, none of these POVs are represented thus making one wonder whether Heemeyer was notable at all. The failure to discuss this issue severely impoverishes this article and diminishes its value as an encyclopedic article.
NPOV does not mean "No POV". It means "Neutral POV". This means that all significant POVs should be represented with a neutral tone.
In other words, you shouldn't say "Most normal people thought he was a nutcase but some idiots think he was a hero".
You should say something like ...
-- Richard 18:28, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
well i can see we arent all going to agree on this, but after reading a bit into this guy, after seeing a video from a news report on a site i regularly visit (gprime.net) i descided to research into him. From what witness accounts i could find, and friends and family views, it seems that this potrail of him and his actions are correct... but that doesnt mean this is not bias.
I... like the view portrayed here, it seems to make out that heemeyer was a hero, a decent guy fighting the power, something that probably made quite good TV over in America, and i bet you were all glued to your sets while it was on, tho i dont know if this is the REAL portrail of the man. Considering not much insight is given into his background here, i believe before we start editing orrr censoring what has allready been writtin, lets focus on gathering, and posting, as much information as can be obtained reliably.
Here comes the problem, what is classed as a reliable news source? please do not come to me with your naive opinions that main stream media is the gospel it proclaims itself to be, every news source must be under a certain level of doubt for authenticity, these are not machines writting these articles, presenting these shows or printing these papers, they are humans, fact is, and allways has been, a matter of opinion.
As in any instance, truth is the illusion we present ourselves when we believe we have an understanding.
In summery, i believe gathering the largest amount of available information on this subject should be established as our highest priority before any major or constested changes begin. Juno NH 21:09, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Has ANYONE found any reliable source stating that the people responsible for his murder (namely Mountain Park Concrete and the City Hall) weren't involved in corruption? No. Nothing at all. No one can even argue that this man wasn't destroyed by a greedy council. Hell, even the mayor was given money by Mountain Park Concrete. A most loyal town member was destroyed by greed and corruption, and that's the bottom line. That's why this article ought to remain the way it is. No sources are even needed to prove that Marvin is viewed as a hero. Back here in North Dakota, nine out of ten people who know Heemeyer or at least read about him say that they are proud he's from the state. There are internet forums dedicated to his valiant act, but none that degrade him.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.229.13.94 ( talk • contribs)
The article in its current incarnation is significantly more disjointed and lacking in sources than its predecessors, as a result of a few people here who are singlymindedly trying to discredit and slander Marvin Heemeyer and the positive influence he has had toward Granby and America as a whole. The sections have no connection with each other, and critical information such as the corruption [has] been left out. Words such as "hurt his business" convey the impication that his business was only minorly damaged and could have survived the relentless onslaught brought about by unbelivably outrageous and blatant corrution. The motivation section makes it seem as if this hero got his motivation from God, but the two hour long tapes clearly show that his primary reason was anger at the destruction of the only thing the man loved in life- his Muffler Shop. This article has become a shame of this entire website due to all the "POVs" instigated by people who support corruption, Big Government, liberalism, and the unAmerican way. I am deeply disappointed by two people here in particular who I am even beginning to suspect may have ulterior motives to prevent the dissemination of facts. In all honesty, Marv was the definitive martyr for all Americans, the true American hero, and his loss is a massive loss for the culture, historical independence, and legacy of all Americans. The original article supported these facts under the cover of complete neutrality, and this neutrality has been ruined by people who have no sources but have mislead and misrepresented Marv. My plan is to go to the original version a week back and add every clear source for every single statement.
Yes because libelous against a dead man doesnt really count as libelous. Juno NH 13:11, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Because the "background" information has been sitting for a few days with no source, I'm moving it here to the talk page. If someone can find a source for the information, please do so and put it back in.
Heemeyer was born in South Dakota. He was described as an obedient, honest, and loving man. However, prior to his rampage, his family life was also falling apart. Heemeyer's father died in a South Dakota hospital on March 31, 2004. In May, Heemeyer traveled to Castlewood South Dakota, where he grew up, to help clean his father's house and get it ready for an auction scheduled for June 19. Heemeyer was also engaged to be married, but he called off the wedding when he caught his fiancee cheating. citation needed
— ripley/ talk 21:38, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
User:Inshanee removed text that asserted that "millions of Americans" revere him as a hero. I agree that "millions" should be removed. The remaining question is whether mention of him as being deemed a hero by "some Americans" should be mentioned in the intro paragraph. My argument is that, were it not for this folk-hero status, Heemeyer would not be notable and so I believe this belongs in the intro to explain to the reader why he/she should bother reading about Heemeyer at all. Please note that the wording should be strictly NPOV. We are not saying that "Heemeyer" should be a folk hero nor should we say that he should not be a folk hero. All we are saying is that he IS a folk hero to SOME Americans. How many Americans is "SOME"? We don't know. We haven't seen a survey that attempts to determine the number.
-- Richard 21:02, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
-- Marvin
Despite all the venom that has been thrown his way in the article, Marvin does fit every definition and sense of the word martyr. Instead of moving away and letting the town continue to falter under corruption, he took a stand against the town for years, and finally made one last valiant act after EVERY other option was exhausted. He is not only a hero, but a martyr. He stood up to for the middle class, and looking at his kind working-class face brings tears to my eyes. Marvin will live on, till eternity. His deeds will never be forgotten, but will only become more celebrated with every passing June 4. I think the article ought to reflect the admiration that Heemeyer has brought in all corners of the United States. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.107.84.160 ( talk • contribs)
I hereby declare June 4 to be a holiday. — Ƿōdenhelm ( talk) 05:39, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
On of the clips was set to heavy metal music in the form of a music video, and as such it was non encycplopedic. If I'm not mistaken, the guy in the bulldozer was eventually killed wasn't he? The second was a direct copy from some TV newsmagazine show (as was presumably the first which had heavy metal rather than the announcer's voice), and was a copyright violation (both were probably copyright violations). The video was interesting, I'll grant that but It doesn't qualify for inclusion in the form that it was in. Reading the talk page, it is obvious that there are two very different viewpoints here. Those who feel that heemeyer was the victim of corruption and whatnot, are going to need evidence (and sources) if they want to advance that claim. The concrete plant giving money to politicians isnt by itself evidence of corruption. The supreme court itself validated a town taking private land for business interests (a decision I disagree with intensely btw) but this goes toward whether their behaviour was unusual. If you want to say Heemeyer was justified, then you need real evidence. Going through town on a killdozer, is in itself, evidence that he snapped and had some sort of breakdown. In the end, I came here neither to praise heemeyer, nor to damn him. I am just fixing a copyright vio and inappropriate links. Caper13 17:52, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
As I am knew to Wikipedia, I would like input on how to correct something in the article related to the disposition of the bulldozer. The article (and I'm paraphrasing) states that many wanted to turn the dozer into a tourist attraction but the "town" decided to have it dismantled, and cites a news article for the source. However, that is not really what happened. It was the decision of the District Attorney's Office to have the bulldozer destoryed under Colorado Law that allows condemnation of property that is used in a felony. The DA's office was never requested (nor would have entertained such a request) to allow it to be a tourist attraction. Under Colorado law, there were only two options 1) public auction to the highest bidder or 2) destroy it. The decision to condemn and destroy it was made by the elected DA the week following the incident, and the town was not involved in the decision (although they did support it). The cited source is simply inaccurate on that point, and quotes people who spoke out of turn. The reason I know this is because at the time, I was the Deputy District Attorney who filed the condemnation action in the District Court for Grand County. Obviously I can't put that in because as I understand original research policy here would prohibit it. Nonetheless, that point is simply incorrect and could mislead a reader into believing there was some issue about the disposition of the bulldozer. 70.243.159.119 03:26, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the help. I'll have to look up the exact section of Title 16 of the Colorado Revised Statutes that I relied on when I filed the papers, and then just simply edit the article to reflect that after the incident the DA's office filed the action. It's public record in the District Court now anyway. JimZDP 04:25, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Took me a while to get back to this, but changed the disposition of the bulldozer and the related weapons to accurately reflect what happened. Additionally, change an earlier section that stated one the buildings destroyed what the former mayor's, when actually it was the home owned by a former judge's widow. JimZDP 00:10, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
I have now twice reverted User:Paruta's POV edits. Other editors have also reverted similar edits.
It is inappropriate for this or any other Wikipedia article to characterize Marvin Heemeyer as a hero. If you have reliable sources that verify that some people think he was a hero, then that can be included in the article. If all you have is your own personal opinion, then that constitutes original research which also violates the Wikipedia NPOV policy.
Please stop this inappropriate POV-pushing.
-- Richard 17:42, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Would it help those of you who want the "Folk Hero" tag on this incident to know:
1) Yes, Heemeyer got screwed by the government (although it was all legal); 2) When he hit the Granby Town Hall, at the time, it was connected to the Granby Library - which at the time was conducting a kindergarten and elementary school reading hour, fortunately they got the kids out before anybody was hurt; 3) One of the homes he wrecked was not the home of a "former mayor" (I've corrected that), but the home of an elderly (80 yrs+) judge's widow and her daughter, who ruled adversely to him in his cases against the county and town (fortunately they weren't there); 4) He hit the newspaper offices. That was related to the position that they took opposing bringing casinos into Grand County, which was an intiative of his that many in that tourist community opposed (I think there is something about that in the 1st Amend, but I'd have to check); 5) He fired a .50 caliber into giant propane tanks, which, thanks to great mountain ventilation, did not explode and kill a lot of people.
I point these thing out, not to demonize Heemeyer or open a debate on his actions, but to illustrate how stating that Heemeyer is a "folk hero" does NOT improve the article, because there is much evidence to the contrary. My understanding of Wiki is that it describes and illustrates the topic in as neutral a point as possible. I'm new, I could be wrong JimZDP 01:46, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
You are correct when you say that the argument is whether or not he should be a folk hero, and I was simply pointing out that there are many reasons NOT to consider him a folk hero; thus it's better for the article to stay away from that. Everthing I stated can be verified by Grand County SO reports and court filings.
We could end up with a "he's a folk hero because of this" and "he's not a folk hero because of that" and then the article would distract from what happened. As I understand Wiki, and I admit I'm new to this, that shouldn't be the purpose of the article. In all fairness, I can see why he did what he did, and at the same time argue he shouldn't have done it that way. Perhaps the page would be better if we did expand it in such a fashion, and put it into the context of eminant domain, government abuse, etc. If you're willing to flesh it out that way, I will certainly be glad to participate.
With that background, your point makes very good sense, and is a reasonable compromise. As I said, I'm new to Wiki, and hoped to contribute something. I don't mind getting into it with a drvie-by vandal, but you seem to have worked it out, so I'll step back. If you would like to expand this article as I suggested above, I would be glad to work on it as well. 69.155.30.148 09:44, 30 January 2007 (UTC) Sorry, forgot to log in and sign correctly JimZDP 09:47, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
The sentence stated that some speculated that Heemeyer had a terminal disease, but his autopsy showed good health. The statement does not really contribute to the article. There was a lot of "speculation" about what happened. But that sentence was about as helpful as "Some speculated that Heemeyer didn't clip his toenails that day, but a careful examination of his feet reveals he did." All it does is stray a reader from what happened that day. JimZDP 02:19, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
I see your point, but it overlooks the fact that he 1) didn't have a terminal disease and 2) he spent 18 months doing some VERY HEAVY lifting to turn the 'dozer into a tank (pretty unusual type of work for somebody who is terminally ill). There were all kinds of rumours about the man, most of them nothing more than guesses by people who knew nothing about the matter. I didn't believe it really added anything, but I'm not married to it, so if you believe that piece of gossip is somehow more worthy than all the other gossip than put it back it. It's not inaccuate, I just believed it to be gratuitous. JimZDP 07:23, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
There are many sources. 5 of the first ten top Heemeyer sites agree, —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.107.81.62 ( talk • contribs)
im going to remove it,it is not needed here
looks much better now
"FOUR TILDES" 17:26, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Marvin Heemeyer represented to many individuals the frustration that the common man has with corrupt, lumbering institutions. Yet this article makes absolutely no mention of the fact that so many people consider him to be a hero, not even in a passing sense. On the other hand, I've noticed that the article DOES make an effort to paint the man in a very broad stroke the other way. Portrayals of the people shooting at Heemeyer being compared to "bronc busters riding a dragon", along with, for some reason, the inclusion of a notation of that nut who stole a tank and drove it on the highway. It doesn't take brains or ambition to crash a tank into a median; on the other hand, to express one's absolute frustration with the system in a homemade vehicle like Heemeyer did took long, careful, intelligent planning. While I would assume that one would try to keep this article NPOV by omitting the more blatant statements of Marvin's heroic struggle against the corrupt town of Granby, I think that it's at the moment skewed a little too far the other way. At the very least mention should be made of his status amongst ordinary citizens as a folk hero. 67.94.201.2 11:24, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Answer: Because random destruction of property, firing guns at police officers, and committing suicide doesn't make you a hero, even if you do it in an armored tractor. Furthermore, such a statement would not be a neutral point of view without citing a reliable source that calls him that. (Note: "not reliable" does not mean "obscure," read WP:RS.) Wikipedia is not for pushing personal points of view or praising things you like, it's about presenting facts in an objective manner. -- Hi Ev 18:17, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Furthermore, I happen to recall a certain widely-misinterpreted Amendment to the Constitution of a certain huge North American country, instead of providing the right to carry weapons, in fact explicitly allows ARMED INSURRECTION by a citizen against a government that has wronged him. Thus, in certain interpretations of law, his actions are actually fully legal. Aadieu ( talk) 16:06, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
There is every indication to believe that Marvin Heemeyer is notable percisely because many people believe that he is a hero. To not mention that in the first paragraph is unforgivable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.32.77.36 ( talk • contribs)
Please read the discussion immediately above this one. If you can come up with a verifiable citation to a reliable source, we can include it. -- Richard 20:51, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Everyone, look up the IP's of the people pushing Heemeyer's "hero" status. At least half of them are from the San Francisco Bay Area. This is just the work of a single person trying to make it seem like a popular view. This individual has been POV editing/vandalizing the article for over two years. JScott06 18:59, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Marvin is a hero and that's fact. He is notable, he has 2 Russian fan sites by the way, so he is known over the world. He is nore notable then all the articles about US presidents, parties, organisations together taken. M.V.E.i. 20:34, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
I agree with the May 2007 proposal to merge Killdozer (bulldozer) with this article. The articles are largely redundant. There is no "killdozer" other than the one in this incident. It is not independently notable. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:02, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Killdozer is a short story by Theodore Sturgeon and one of few existing stories about rampaging bulldozers. Quite surprised it wasn't linked in this article when "Killdozer" was mentioned. -- (R. Brown, reader not Wiki editor) 25 September 2010 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.112.96.185 ( talk) 12:03, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
So which is it? $4 million as stated in the 3rd paragraph of the Rampage section, or $5 million as stated in the third paragraph of the End Of Rampage section? DemonJuice 01:15, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
too many redundant facts. there were camera monitors mounted on the dozer, he did/didn't go out of his way to avoid hurting people, he died by self-inflicted gun wound. you only need to mention each once. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.213.220.186 ( talk) 20:46, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
More redundancy:
and
I just saw this guy on the tv, and I was wondering if we could put in a short section about it being on. The tv's show was called Shockwave, which I think was on the history channel. Niwradian ( talk) 08:20, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Having read the article, I have the following questions, which I believe the article should answer (and I'd also welcome someone elightening me):
1) The article states that he shot people, but that he was fully encased in concrete. How did he manage to shoot them through the concrete?
2) The dozer was guided by 3 cameras. Why did no one think to knock them off? - mattbuck 04:20, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
"Had these tanks ruptured and exploded, anyone within one-half mile of the explosion could have been endangered," the sheriff's department said"
The current article contains the above which appears to be a lie. A ruptured propane tank can not by definition explode, in fact fire fighters pierce gas canisters they can't move away from a fire so they don't explode. 81.228.145.99 ( talk) 16:54, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was no consensus to support move. JPG-GR ( talk) 18:34, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Marvin Heemeyer →
Marvin Heemeyer SUV rampage
Marvin Heemeyer bulldozer rampage — It strikes me that the article is about the "rampage" more than the person, and that the assertion of notability for a Wikipedia article comes from that event, so unless Martin Heemeyer was otherwise notable, I propose a move. per the proposal at
WP:N/CA. —
Artichoke2020 (
talk)
15:30, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.Why "SUV rampage"? He used an armored bulldozer. Mike R ( talk) 15:48, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
A civilian owned FNC cannot possibly be an "assault rifle" or "assault weapon". The first term refers to a fully-automatic military firearm, and the second is a term cooked up by the anti-gun legislators to demonize civilian ownership of semiautomatic rifles. The term is offensive. -- 69.129.184.186 ( talk) 16:15, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
Since so many people want this guy in the "hero" category, can I petition for him to be in a list of "blue-collar communist nutbags" too?
Just askin'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by DarkSaturos90 ( talk • contribs) 02:08, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I don't know why you made a subsection. I don't consider Heemeyer a hero, but he did have the constitutional right to keep and bear arms. 69.129.184.186 ( talk) 01:02, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
The article indicates a "front-end loader" attempted to stop Heemeyer. A front-end loader is usually identified by the loader on the front. The video of the incident depicts a scraper (one example is a Caterpillar 621B [3]) which is the earthmoving equivelent of a woodworking tool called a plane [4]. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.111.16.50 ( talk) 02:17, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
Whatever the vehicle that was used to try to stop him was the driver deserves more honor for what he did. Not anyone is gonna stop a bulldozer with his scaper or loader. He actually trapped the dozer in an alley and the engine of the dozer failed after ripping through a steel building. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.251.42.4 ( talk) 06:52, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
Yes, but the honor and heroism issue is totally separate. The video shows a road grader [edit: sorry, scraper, actually], not any sort of loader. I'm going to go ahead and fix this. 136.176.104.93 ( talk) 02:49, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
I removed José Bové from the See also section because the main article does not say that he bulldozed a McDonald's (main article quote: "The event which brought Bové and the Confédération to the foreground, was the dismantling of a McDonald's franchise in Millau (Aveyron), in 1999."), therefore an editor added a {{fact}} to this article. It's pretty ridiculous to add a citation to a see also entry that's loosely related to the article topic. momoricks (make my day) 00:53, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
I have a source that states that the bulldozer was a caterpiller d9 not a komatsu d355a. I'am a Colorado resident myself my uncle was in Granby when this happened. I'm 100% sure that it was a caterpiller not a komatsu. Please fix this.( http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/3390654/detail.html). Not to mention the source in the bulldozer modification section states that it is a caterpiller.-- Bubba98988 ( talk) 02:32, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
I'm not truely sure this has been pointed out- while the article's intro states he commited suicide using a shotgun, further in it's stated that he did so with a .357 magnum and no shotgun is mentioned. 69.121.179.87 ( talk) 21:56, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
as he reduced the Gambles hardware store to rubble
This may have been Heemeyer's intention, but he didn't do anything like that. The available footage clearly shows that he managed to destroy one wall only before the dozer was immobilised. Perhaps there's a better phrasing we could use? Centrepull ( talk) 01:39, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Is the audio Marvin Heemeyer recorded before the rampage available anywhere? Coolgamer ( talk) 23:47, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
There's no sourcing whatsoever for the assertion that this image actually is of him. NNDB is a tertiary source that accepts user submissions, they explicitly claim to value "correctness over verifiability" [7]and they don't provide any provenance at all (that I can find) for the image to determine whether it is him - no information on who took it, when, or why; no description of why they believe it is him; no image that isn't cropped to a tight facial shot. More, there genuinely don't seem to be any other images of Heemeyer out there, so there's nothing we can compare the image to in order to determine consensus. I don't feel the image of Heemeyer actually adds much to the article, either - the article is mostly about the bulldozer attack, and the bulldozer image is far more informative. Unless this image can be verified much better than it currently is, it doesn't belong here. — Gavia immer ( talk) 16:31, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
No article is completely without bias, and most of the information contained are facts gleaned from many news sources. I'd like to know why people think there is anything at all wrong with the article.
(1)Initial reports said that Marvin deliberately avoided injuring anyone. Eyewitnesses corroborated with those facts. Subsequent reports that Marvin was intent on injuring anyone is not affirmed by people who saw the incident. Marvin clearly had the ability to kill, but he didn't. He only wanted the country to learn of his plight, so that Americans realize that the injustice could affect any hard working American.
(2)Marvin is regarded in large areas of the United States as a modern day hero. Few people say that he was filled with malice. Most people could understand why he did what he did.
I'd like to see the dspute closed because there is nothing wrong with the article.
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Marvin Heemeyer/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
At one point this article indicates that the vehicle was entered by SWAT via explosives, then later it mentioned it was opened via blow torch. Having seen the videos and pictures it was the latter. |
Last edited at 07:01, 17 February 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 15:20, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
The following sentence (section Bulldozer modification) seems to be out of place in the context.
-- Mortense ( talk) 08:49, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
Intro, para. 2:
The reference given for this paragraph doesn't say that the factory caused Heemeyer's business to fail. It may very well have done so, but it's not documented here, so I'm changing that to "that he believed had caused his business to fail". -- Thnidu ( talk) 01:17, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
In addition to this article being biased -- not only does the author include absolutely no potentially negative information or sources, but phrases like "monumental effort" (by Heemeyer to save his business) abound -- it is, quite simply, poorly written. Ambiguity and/or downright inaccuracy are contributed by several assertions; for example: "When Heemeyer requested to extend a sewer line across eight feet of the plant's property, he was denied. This resulted in a $2500 fine that Marvin had to pay." Does the author really mean to say that requesting the extension of the sewer line resulted in a fine? That's ludicrous; almost certainly, any fine actually levied would come from actually violating a code (or at least not from merely requesting a permit).
The NPOV tag is more than justified. I am also adding cleanup and deletion tags to ensure that this terrible article (in its current iteration) vanishes from wikipedia as soon as possible, hopefully to be replaced with a reasonable, unbiased, well-written piece. This is without question a newsworthy event and one which needs to be described on wikipedia, but any relevant article absolutely must conform to some minimal standard of quality. Rbmoore
I am from Russia and i wont say: god bless Marvin`s soul, very russian soul. Hi`s a hero for us - russian people.
Stop BSing about "russian soul" will you? I'm not aware of any of you Russians doing a similar thing.
108.59.1.241 (
talk)
10:46, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
The author is somewhat biased I will agree, but much of the article's bias IS because the subject and the information surrounding it are biased, there isn't really a lot to be said for views opposed to Heemeyer, because apparently nobody can agree on facts detracting from his actions. I belive some minor revision is in order, but I don't really think this article is "biased" or "poor". I think it's a decent article and that the author just needs to remove things that are opinionative in a few places. It doesn't merit the kind of harassment some people seem to be levying here. Note to the author and in general: It's alright to have an opinion, it's hard not to with any story, just don't write your opinion in. Perhaps find facts that support your opinions, but don't make inferences about others based on yourself and as much as you support your opinion, do your best to support those opposed to you if possible, because in the end it makes your own even more plausible by the fact it stands against opposing opinions in full strength. Nathaniel 13:43, 27 October 2005 (EST)
Major Russian search engine yandex.ru find "over 19 thousand matches" for search in Cyrillic for Марвин Химейер, as well as suggesting it as the most likely search when just "Марвин" (Marvin) is typed in. Top matches, after wikipedia Russian and my lurmore.ru link are to a Marvin fanclub and an article called "Marvin Heemeyer: The Last American Hero" (in Russian). Does that perhaps look like more solid proof of an internet phenomenon and folk hero status? 208.127.80.59 ( talk) 08:34, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
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The result of the move request was: No consensus ( non-admin closure). Yashovardhan ( talk) 11:24, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
Marvin Heemeyer → 2004 Granby, Colorado, bulldozer rampage – Heemeyer is not notable as an individual per WP:BLP1E. The event is, however. Want to give everyone a chance to come to consensus on new descriptive title. Mark Schierbecker ( talk) 20:16, 19 April 2017 (UTC) --Relisting. — Martin ( MSGJ · talk) 15:19, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Another section alludes to Heemeyer's Russian fan base. I can attest that this is absolutely true, to the extent they are claiming Heemeyer WAS Russian. The article gives no information on his ethnicity, cultural background, immigrant status, etc... other than to say he was an "American". Where was he born? Where were his parents born? Is "Heemeyer" a common Russian name? Is there any information, anywhere that can resolve this question, that could be included in the article? 2605:6000:6947:AB00:D16B:F4F4:1B1C:309E ( talk) 10:15, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
He was born in Castlewood, South Dakota. Ref https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/46319096/marvin-john-heemeyer Ala Bahma ( talk) 19:34, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
I don't think any of this part actually happened (under "Motivation" section) "He had sex with kylie Jenner's cousin felicia inside the tank prior to the attack. He mailed these to his brother in South Dakota shortly before stepping into his bulldozer. Heemeyer's brother turned the tapes over to the FBI, who in turn sent them to the Grand County Sheriff's Department. The tapes were released by the Grand County Sheriff's Office on August 31, 2004. The tapes are about 2.5 hours in length.[20]" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.107.137.127 ( talk) 20:38, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
The article states that
" His ire was particularly intense over fines for violating city health ordinances when he was forced to dump sewage due to zoning disputes with a nextdoor concrete plant."
(also, typo there, "nextdoor" should be "next door")
But this article, and other news articles, state that Heemeyer didn't connect to the sewer line himself- it wasn't as if the zoning forced him to dump sewage.
The truth is that Marv dumped his sewage into a concrete mixing tank on the muffler shop property, which had no septic tank nor any leach field attached.
https://killdozerbook.com/2018/09/bogus-killdozer-youtube-full-of-false-facts/
By that time Heemeyer had decided to sell but the town of Granby wanted assurances that if he sold the new buyers must have a legal sewer connection put resulted, ultimately, in Heemeyer being fined by the courts for contempt since he had refused to obey the town’s laws.
https://www.skyhinews.com/news/tiffs-predated-zoning-fight-land-deal-issues-took-place-before-town-squabble/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.204.89.200 ( talk) 01:01, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
In the introductory section of the article there is a completely incomprehensible sentence: "Heemeyer had feuded with Granby town officials, particularly over fines for violating city health ordinances when he chose dump sewage due instead of installing a proper septic tank."
Presumably it should be "Heemeyer had feuded with Granby town officials, particularly over fines for violating city health ordinances when he chose to dump sewage instead of installing a proper septic tank."
I can't edit due to the article being locked for vandalism.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.17.168.140 ( talk) 12:52, April 12, 2020 (UTC)
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change all instances of the word "bulldozer" to "killdozer", unless the word "bulldozer" is used to explain what the "killdozer" was, or if referring to a bulldozer separate to the killdozer CREAMartaccount ( talk) 02:37, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
{{
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template. -
FlightTime (
open channel)
02:38, 19 April 2020 (UTC)I would like to suggest changing the title of this page from "Marvin Heemeyer" to "Marvin Heemeyer (American rampager)". I think it had a better ring to it, and would match the title format of the linked page "Shawn Nelson (American rampager)". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cadeblade99 ( talk • contribs) 13:16, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
Some missing facts for this section:
- "The land was bought at auction from the Resolution Trust Corporation, which administers the holdings of failed banks. The Docheffs had owned the property but lost it to the bank" - https://www.skyhinews.com/news/tiffs-predated-zoning-fight-land-deal-issues-took-place-before-town-squabble/
- "When the land went to auction, a friend and business associate of the Docheffs had hoped to buy the property so that he could sell it back to the Docheffs at a later time." - https://www.skyhinews.com/news/tiffs-predated-zoning-fight-land-deal-issues-took-place-before-town-squabble/
- Heemeyer said he offered to sell the property to Cody Docheff on the day of the auction for $66,000, after being confronted by Docheff immediately after the auction - https://www.skyhinews.com/in-depth/bulldozer-in-granby/audio-hear-from-marvin-heemeyer-himself-in-recorded-manifesto/#:~:text=These%20audio%20recordings%20were%20made,be%20Heemeyer's%20unofficial%20%E2%80%9Cmanifesto.%E2%80%9D (part 1) 45.46.252.14 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 05:38, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
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Hello, I found a Childhood Photo from a Middle School yearbook of Marvin Heemeyer on ancestery.com i do not know how to upload a file [redacted].
-Evan
2603:6000:9344:B500:3980:AA1F:5577:C9FE (
talk)
17:14, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
I have encountered many people in the USA who celebrate "killdozer day" on June 4, and who regard Heemeyer as a folk hero. I believe he should be described as such, as he meets all common criteria for that title.
There's an argument to be had back and forth, and I understand if Wikipedia isn't designed to/doesn't want to take a stance on the issue, but I think changing his "title" from welder to folk hero is something that should, at the very least, be considered and discussed. 2601:446:C200:3410:71A8:149D:E793:B2AF ( talk) 07:45, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
I'd call him more of a Incel than a Folk Hero. He meets all of the common criteria for that title too. 97.114.171.179 ( talk) 02:15, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
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Change "far-right extremist boogaloo movement" to "extremist boogaloo movement". It's anarchist/libertarian, which doesn't have a place between left and right. Adog312 ( talk) 02:24, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
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Please add this photo to this page https://drive.google.com/file/d/1A2mwX-Qrqv3gsLavi5g0DGKY_LoGsXlC/view?usp=sharing This is another photo of Marvin. 2603:6000:9344:B500:40EF:8186:D413:7415 ( talk) 17:16, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
I came to this page after watching the 2019 Documentary "Tread" and wanted more information. However, I found the sections related to the Zoning Dispute and the motivation to lack in clarity.
I think the Motivation section should either come before sections directly related to the attack (at time of writing, "Bulldozer Modification", etc.) or should become a parent section enveloping "Zoning Dispute" as a subsection, as it seems the only reason the zoning dispute is relevant is as motivation for the attack. This would also facilitate more reasons being listed in the parent Motivation section.
The description of the sale of land to build a concrete plant is unclear. I did not grok whether Heemeyer willingly sold the land at a profit instead of and after buying it to build a muffler shop. I also could not tell whether the price changed several times in normal negotiation or because Heemeyer wanted to spike the deal. Thirdly, it's unclear what the sale has to do with the zoning dispute. The last paragraph indicates that Heemeyer wanted to block construction of the concrete plant - it's unclear to me why he would do this if he was engaged in the sale of the property; my hypothesis is that Heemeyer was unaware of why the land was being bought and sold it in the end, and disagreed with it being zoned to allow the concrete plant, and then embarked in a long battle with city zoning policy. Whatever the case, the current "Motivation" section makes Heemeyer's motivation sound primarily religious, without the context of his civic grudges, and I think this should be rectified.
Further motivations ("grudges") relating to other individuals in the town can follow in the same section.
Opticaliqlusion ( talk) 00:03, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
The documentary Tread is mentioned in the popular culture section, but there is no link and minimal information. Could someone perhaps add the link and a bit more about it? 72.138.144.38 ( talk) 16:02, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
The lede has
Heemeyer had feuded with Granby town officials, particularly over fines for violating city health ordinances after local officials made it financially impossible for Heemeyer to connect to the city sewage system.
There's no ref, but that's normal for ledes. The supporting text in the body of the article is:
He was subsequently fined $2,500[6] by the town council and a city judge for various violations, including "not being hooked up to the sewer line"; he had initially been unable to connect to the new sewer line as the line ran 60 feet (18 m) away from his property and the city expected him to pay the nearly $80,000 cost of laying the connector.
The ref [6]] in the early part of the paragraph does not mention or support anything about $80,000 or a sewer connector. The closest is comes is "He was also upset over a $2,500 fine for not having a septic tank and other city code violations involving his muffler shop."
So my basic question is, how is it financially impossible to pay $80,000 for a sewer line? It's a fair bit of money, but I mean in my town it costs about $40,000 to build one for your house and connect. It's just an expense of having property. If you have a gas station and you have to replace the tanks as they age and start to leak, that's like a million bucks. You're supposed to set some of your profits aside for property maintenance and upgrade. If you shop is viable and you don't have the money on hand you can borrow it.
What was the town supposed to do differently? Let him not have a sewer line and/or septic system? Pay for the work itself? It sound like the $80,000 was not like something he had to give to the town, but just the price a private business would charge for doing the work? Or was the town saying "you have to have the connector built, and also give us $80,000 on top of that"?
I'm just a driveby, but can we have explanation for "financially impossible", and a ref, or else remove from the lede? Herostratus ( talk) 11:33, 4 May 2021 (UTC) financially impossible
Why is the only article about the rampage about Marvin Heemeyer? there should be a separate article discussing the “2004 Granby, Colorado Bulldozer Rampage”? There are more articles on the internet that discuss the events that occurring during the rampage than Heeymer himself. While there is lengthy information about Heeymer, there is enough information regarding the rampage on this article to split them into two. One article should discuss Marvin Heeymer and the other should discuss the 2004 Bulldozer rampage. CanadianOntarian ( talk) 01:01, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
This article reads somewhat like victors history. Viewing the video coverage of the event, Heemeyer was very specific about the property he intended to damage, not wrecking everything in sight. He gave plenty of time for people to get away, destruction was slow and relatively gently done. Video shows that the Komatsu D355A bulldozer gradually overheated due to all the protective steel plating. Also, it did not become jammed or get stuck, the engine quit (seized) due to massive overheating that blew out the coolant (rather than damage caused by debris). The officers who attempted to stop the (very slow moving) vehicle were at best pretty naive trying to shoot small arms at what was clearly thick plate steel, same goes for those riding on top etc. Officers would have been better if they had just cleared the way, rather than playing the John Wayne hero type. Finally, the admission about disposal of the vehicle (to prevent souvenir hunters) speaks volumes about the kind of sympathy many people feel towards the guy.
Clearly Heemeyer was an extremely vexated character, suffering a mental imbalance, a year's making (most likely due to a corrupted bureaucracy). He surely can not be considered or remembered as any kind of hero, but this entry stinks of the all to often establishment misdirection, cover-up and character assassination of a man driven to his limits. The entry reads more like a Netflix script than an non Point-Of-View, unbiased encyclopaedia entry. It really sucks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.140.253.222 ( talk) 16:08, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
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In the ‘’in popular culture’’ section, add that the killdozer was featured in the games ‘’scribblenauts unlimited’’ and ‘’scribblenauts unmasked’’ Mrenderboyo ( talk) 22:42, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
The company building the concrete facility across the street from his business disconnected his business from the city sewer. 2600:8803:7583:E400:1A4:90CD:DD43:639C ( talk) 17:27, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
The intro to this article has more content and information (e.g. that he was fined for improperly dumping sewage) than the actual body. This is a problem. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LitanyOfBoredom ( talk • contribs) 09:24, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
The weapons listed on board don't match the photographs on news reports nor articles elsewhere. This should likely be updated with reliable sources.--Surv1v4l1st ╠ Talk║ Contribs╣ 23:54, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
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In "In popular culture" section 'C.M. STUNICH's Unholy Terrors - Scarlett Force series' should be included. Marvin and his story/bulldozer are referenced, very concisely on pages 92 -93 [kindle ebook version]. Cariad88 ( talk) 22:27, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
In the section headed "The Bulldozer," there's a quotation attributed to someone named Daly. But there's no first reference as to who that person is, or his/her position. I've gone back and looked at two years of revisions, with no luck identifying this person. Can someone knowledgeable about this case address this? Yesthatbruce ( talk) 03:24, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
The story surrounding the killdozer is frequently misreported, often for political interests (disliking the same groups and institutions as Heemeyer). For instance, it might be useful to note that he claimed access was blocked, but third-party observers have reported it never was. For the road access, there is a book by a local reporter [1] and satelite images [2] showing there was always an unobstructed road to his property. It is important to use third-party observers for some of these facts, because otherwise we might be "teaching the controversy", giving equal weight to both positions.
I'm going to make these changes boldly, but making this topic in advance, because i can only assume the extended protected lock is there for a reason. Bart Terpstra ( talk) 12:52, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
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Planning and construction section
There is a typo: boughshould be bought.
!-- Write your request ABOVE this line and do not remove the tildes and curly brackets below. --> 24.185.139.28 ( talk) 20:15, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
I have some facts that I can't seem to confirm rn, and i think the talk page is a good place to put these. This copy claims to have come from the denver post, which has an online archive, i just don't have a login.
Denver Post - June 6 (or so, someone claims):
Bart Terpstra ( talk) 21:47, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
References
Martin said the lease was up June 1, and there have been inquiries from potential buyers. Observers think the impending loss of the shed's use may be why Heemeyer launched his attack last week.
The Grand County Sheriff's Office released a statement Saturday saying that Heemeyer tried to "kill two state troopers who were hiding behind a concrete wall by pushing over the wall, however the troopers escaped."
In the second paragraph of the section headed "Timeline" a person named Code Docheff is mentioned. This appears to be a misspelling of Cody Docheff 65.17.175.90 ( talk) 16:24, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
He destroyed public property and used deadly force1 in pursuit of political goals and creating fear.
It is an example of an unsuccessful, grievance-driven lone-wolf attack
Material characterizing it as an act of terrorism:
I personally think the intelligence analysis of Heemeyer's actions as a kind of low-tech terrorism to be the most persuasive argument for the change.
1: shooting at people is deadly force. Bart Terpstra ( talk) 22:37, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
References
The antigovernment crowd that historically has flourished in the Western U.S. had been in slow retreat since true terrorism came to America in 1995. But last month, it suddenly resurfaced and exuberantly embraced Heemeyer as a fellow warrior against bureaucratic tyranny. That he'd managed to kill no one other than himself during his rampage was certainly a plus.
He had morphed from a prepper into a domestic terrorist, having more in common with a martyr driving a car bomb than a prepper determined to survive at all costs. Same methodology, different ideology.
see title
People had been advised to stay indoors because the bulldozer operator — whoever it was — had shot at police and the batch-plant operator. Children had fled the library only a minute before the giant Komatsu crashed into the building.At the newspaper office, Brower was trying to figure who the terrorist was.
Many can recall the news reports of Marvin Heemeyer's June 2004 "killdozer" attack in Colorado, for which he employed a bulldozer fortified with steel plates, much like the Franken-Trucks currently being used by ISIS.8 Heemeyer used the Caterpillar bulldozer to destroy everything in his path until he got the vehicle hung up on a building and died from a self-inflicted gunshot. Heemeyer had incorporated a monitor and camera to see where he was going and included gun ports in the steel plating so that he could also fire a weapon from his protected position.
Heemeyer is seen by most as just a terrorist, but some see him as a patriotic American for standing up to the government.
"He sold his property for $425.000"
I believe this period should be a comma, but the article is semi-protected and I cannot fix it myself. Kaisheng21 ( talk) 20:33, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
"In recent years, Heemeyer gained a small internet following for his bulldozer attack, comparable to the Unabomber's following in the same or similar communities, with people politicizing and justifying his actions as reasonable and proportional. An example of such a group is the Boogaloo boys." 1) just because it was memed, it doesnt mean that its on the same level as the unabomber following. you are mixing two completely unrelated internet cultures here, just out of political spite. 2) same with the bogaloo boys. just because a right wing noob group claims that, doesnt mean that the other 99% that meme him are right wing, to put this in is - once again - just left wing propaganda to paint the open internet part as "rightwingers". which is complete bs. 2003:CC:B734:BD80:9805:E618:79F1:1780 ( talk) 21:00, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
The article uses at least three time formats. The time format should be standardized across the article. For example, there are the following:
Nakonana ( talk) 21:32, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
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Reference link 12 directs to a video game and not "inspecting aerial photography" recommend removal Dpmwi ( talk) 15:01, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
In an effort to improve many of the poorly written paragraphs here, I may have inadvertently removed a source link. I did edits in small batches so that other editors would more easily be able to review my changes. However, @ Glman, your revert undid a lot of my work and reintroduced some plainly incorrect writing. Can we collaborate on this? Dreameditsbrooklyn ( talk) 15:19, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
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Archive 1 |
The article lists the dozer as a modified Komatsu, though the first photo's caption states it was a caterpillar... Someone needs to correct this. rmosler ( talk) 02:41, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
This article is fine the way it is. The events is written in a way that the highest number of people can agree on. The cops lied about the incident, and as a result, most negative media reports were inconsistent. The article paints an accurate portrait of Marvin Heemeyer.
I do believe, sorry to the above, that it is still biased. I also believe that NPOV with any article is possible. The best way to NPOV is to list facts instead of implications, ie "Bob was found guilty of murdering Tom" Vs. "Bob murdered Tom." We do not really know if he really murdered Tom or not, (implication), however, it is a fact if he was found guilty of it (court records), hence that's what you put.
I'm going to run through it and add "some bellive"s and such to the controversial portions to make it NPOV, and change the template. Then, if no one minds, say a week or so later, I'm going to try and take down the template completely. Sim 17:52, August 6, 2005 (UTC)
"Some Americans now consider Marvin Heemeyer an American hero, believing that he sacrificed himself to promote American values, expose tyranny, and fight corruption, following the path of the American founding fathers."
Who believes this stuff? Is this a mainstream view, or even close to it? Is there some kind of reference we can see? I mean, following the path of the founding fathers? He wrecked a town out of a personal vendetta and then shot himself. Everyking 05:54, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, I attempted to edit the new Corruption in Granby section to make it less POV and to actually correspond with the cited source. The quote of "everyone be glad he's gone" doesn't exist in the citation, for one, and the "turn it into something fun" statement is clearly speculation by the ABC affiliate source. There's also no citations to support the city's attempts to minimize what happened to this fellow -- besides the one, and one citation does not an argument make. In all fairness, I think the guy probably got a bad shake from a possibly corrupt small town, but the section I edited (and which was subsequently reverted by the editor who added it) is quite POV as it stands now, and I'm not going to bother with a revert war. As such, I'm tagging the section NPOV and adding some citation requests and dubious notes. -- FreelanceWizard 04:37, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
The paragraph ought to stay deleted:
-- Scott eiπ 20:15, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
That explains a LOT about why the "town council" was trying to erase Heeymer. Turns out in a news report that the mayor was in the pocket of the very company that destroyed the man.
"Heemeyer's rampage, as press and news media have widely reported, was precipitated by a four year losing battle with the town council of Granby, who, despite widespread opposition from residents, altered town zoning codes and ordinances, to allow Mountain Park Concrete to build and operate a cement batch plant next to Heemeyer's muffler shop, a move which forced Heemeyer out of business due to the dust and pollution of the plant. Mayor Wang presided over most of the council's forceful actions"
"Many residents have been and still are contending that Wang and the Granby Town Council accepted bribes and payoffs from Mountain Park Concrete"
"At least two Granby residents have said, on the condition of anonymity, that Wang and council members have refused to acknowledge whether or not they have received any financial contributions to their election campaigns."
"It has been confirmed that Heemeyer does not have any criminal record, so it remains, "Why does the Colorado Bureau of Investigation have a file on Marvin Heemeyer? Is it for a concealed carry gun permit? Or, as some concerned citizens have said, 'Wang, the town council and certain Grand county authorities have created an 'enemies' list of the people who are politically outspoken and who have opposed various actions of the town council or the county commissioners."
The actions of the town council are a proven attempt to eliminate culpability for Mayor Wang's actions. http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-12405.html
Ex-Nintendo Employee 22:36, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
The article only appears biased because (I would hope) the readers are biased against money grubbing pencil pushers with no sense of accountablity. Facts are facts, if the expression of those facts shine an unsavory light on the parties involved, there is a reason. Anyone who denies this man was wronged is delusional. The sad part is that the building were insured and the town got to upgrade.
68.227.242.182
22:08, 9 August 2006 (UTC)Simon
Free clue: "POV" means "point of view"; that is, a personal viewpoint you keep crowbarring in, no matter how much you rant, rave, and wave your hands about "reliable sources". Which you fail, anyways, since your direct source for your semi-libellous claims is ranting on some message forum that fails the Reliable sources standard by a wide margin, and the actual reliable source you employ as ass-covering supports none of the mud-slinging you attempt to insert.
Here, we have basic fact-checking and neutrality-of-presentation standards: your inability to understand this is not my problem, but your attempt to insert your opinion disguised as fact is, and will be reverted. -- Calton | Talk 05:57, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Stop right there. Step back form the keyboard, keep you hands in sight.
OK, hurling insults is not going to solve anything. Let's get back to basics here: everything which is added to this article needs to be verifiable from reliable sources. Any statements made by individuals need to be attributed by name, and those individuals need to be of objectively provable authority. This person is dead but the officials named and alluded to are not, WP:LIVING applies. As long as everything is cited and supportable no problem, but uncited or poorly sourced information about living individuals should be removed immediately from the article, and its talk page, and this is explicitly exempt from WP:3RR.
Nothing should be added to the article at this point without consensus here, anything deleted which is critical of living individuals must not be reinserted without full and authoritative attribution, and you should as a matter of urgency get this into some dispute resolution process which will attract more eyes. Just zis Guy you know? 14:15, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I got here via the RFC process.
First of all, this article is a mess perhaps as a result of the POV edit warring. The "Background Information" section is not "background", it's an overview. As a result, you wind up reading about the rampage twice. The "Family and Friends" section could be named better. The "Rampage" section contains a couple of sentences that should be in a separate section. etc. etc. In general, the narrative is choppy and does not flow well at all.
Also, I have scanned the comments on this talk page briefly. It's clear that there are different POVs regarding whether Marvin was a criminal, a nutcase or a hero. However, as a result of the POV debate, none of these POVs are represented thus making one wonder whether Heemeyer was notable at all. The failure to discuss this issue severely impoverishes this article and diminishes its value as an encyclopedic article.
NPOV does not mean "No POV". It means "Neutral POV". This means that all significant POVs should be represented with a neutral tone.
In other words, you shouldn't say "Most normal people thought he was a nutcase but some idiots think he was a hero".
You should say something like ...
-- Richard 18:28, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
well i can see we arent all going to agree on this, but after reading a bit into this guy, after seeing a video from a news report on a site i regularly visit (gprime.net) i descided to research into him. From what witness accounts i could find, and friends and family views, it seems that this potrail of him and his actions are correct... but that doesnt mean this is not bias.
I... like the view portrayed here, it seems to make out that heemeyer was a hero, a decent guy fighting the power, something that probably made quite good TV over in America, and i bet you were all glued to your sets while it was on, tho i dont know if this is the REAL portrail of the man. Considering not much insight is given into his background here, i believe before we start editing orrr censoring what has allready been writtin, lets focus on gathering, and posting, as much information as can be obtained reliably.
Here comes the problem, what is classed as a reliable news source? please do not come to me with your naive opinions that main stream media is the gospel it proclaims itself to be, every news source must be under a certain level of doubt for authenticity, these are not machines writting these articles, presenting these shows or printing these papers, they are humans, fact is, and allways has been, a matter of opinion.
As in any instance, truth is the illusion we present ourselves when we believe we have an understanding.
In summery, i believe gathering the largest amount of available information on this subject should be established as our highest priority before any major or constested changes begin. Juno NH 21:09, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Has ANYONE found any reliable source stating that the people responsible for his murder (namely Mountain Park Concrete and the City Hall) weren't involved in corruption? No. Nothing at all. No one can even argue that this man wasn't destroyed by a greedy council. Hell, even the mayor was given money by Mountain Park Concrete. A most loyal town member was destroyed by greed and corruption, and that's the bottom line. That's why this article ought to remain the way it is. No sources are even needed to prove that Marvin is viewed as a hero. Back here in North Dakota, nine out of ten people who know Heemeyer or at least read about him say that they are proud he's from the state. There are internet forums dedicated to his valiant act, but none that degrade him.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.229.13.94 ( talk • contribs)
The article in its current incarnation is significantly more disjointed and lacking in sources than its predecessors, as a result of a few people here who are singlymindedly trying to discredit and slander Marvin Heemeyer and the positive influence he has had toward Granby and America as a whole. The sections have no connection with each other, and critical information such as the corruption [has] been left out. Words such as "hurt his business" convey the impication that his business was only minorly damaged and could have survived the relentless onslaught brought about by unbelivably outrageous and blatant corrution. The motivation section makes it seem as if this hero got his motivation from God, but the two hour long tapes clearly show that his primary reason was anger at the destruction of the only thing the man loved in life- his Muffler Shop. This article has become a shame of this entire website due to all the "POVs" instigated by people who support corruption, Big Government, liberalism, and the unAmerican way. I am deeply disappointed by two people here in particular who I am even beginning to suspect may have ulterior motives to prevent the dissemination of facts. In all honesty, Marv was the definitive martyr for all Americans, the true American hero, and his loss is a massive loss for the culture, historical independence, and legacy of all Americans. The original article supported these facts under the cover of complete neutrality, and this neutrality has been ruined by people who have no sources but have mislead and misrepresented Marv. My plan is to go to the original version a week back and add every clear source for every single statement.
Yes because libelous against a dead man doesnt really count as libelous. Juno NH 13:11, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Because the "background" information has been sitting for a few days with no source, I'm moving it here to the talk page. If someone can find a source for the information, please do so and put it back in.
Heemeyer was born in South Dakota. He was described as an obedient, honest, and loving man. However, prior to his rampage, his family life was also falling apart. Heemeyer's father died in a South Dakota hospital on March 31, 2004. In May, Heemeyer traveled to Castlewood South Dakota, where he grew up, to help clean his father's house and get it ready for an auction scheduled for June 19. Heemeyer was also engaged to be married, but he called off the wedding when he caught his fiancee cheating. citation needed
— ripley/ talk 21:38, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
User:Inshanee removed text that asserted that "millions of Americans" revere him as a hero. I agree that "millions" should be removed. The remaining question is whether mention of him as being deemed a hero by "some Americans" should be mentioned in the intro paragraph. My argument is that, were it not for this folk-hero status, Heemeyer would not be notable and so I believe this belongs in the intro to explain to the reader why he/she should bother reading about Heemeyer at all. Please note that the wording should be strictly NPOV. We are not saying that "Heemeyer" should be a folk hero nor should we say that he should not be a folk hero. All we are saying is that he IS a folk hero to SOME Americans. How many Americans is "SOME"? We don't know. We haven't seen a survey that attempts to determine the number.
-- Richard 21:02, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
-- Marvin
Despite all the venom that has been thrown his way in the article, Marvin does fit every definition and sense of the word martyr. Instead of moving away and letting the town continue to falter under corruption, he took a stand against the town for years, and finally made one last valiant act after EVERY other option was exhausted. He is not only a hero, but a martyr. He stood up to for the middle class, and looking at his kind working-class face brings tears to my eyes. Marvin will live on, till eternity. His deeds will never be forgotten, but will only become more celebrated with every passing June 4. I think the article ought to reflect the admiration that Heemeyer has brought in all corners of the United States. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.107.84.160 ( talk • contribs)
I hereby declare June 4 to be a holiday. — Ƿōdenhelm ( talk) 05:39, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
On of the clips was set to heavy metal music in the form of a music video, and as such it was non encycplopedic. If I'm not mistaken, the guy in the bulldozer was eventually killed wasn't he? The second was a direct copy from some TV newsmagazine show (as was presumably the first which had heavy metal rather than the announcer's voice), and was a copyright violation (both were probably copyright violations). The video was interesting, I'll grant that but It doesn't qualify for inclusion in the form that it was in. Reading the talk page, it is obvious that there are two very different viewpoints here. Those who feel that heemeyer was the victim of corruption and whatnot, are going to need evidence (and sources) if they want to advance that claim. The concrete plant giving money to politicians isnt by itself evidence of corruption. The supreme court itself validated a town taking private land for business interests (a decision I disagree with intensely btw) but this goes toward whether their behaviour was unusual. If you want to say Heemeyer was justified, then you need real evidence. Going through town on a killdozer, is in itself, evidence that he snapped and had some sort of breakdown. In the end, I came here neither to praise heemeyer, nor to damn him. I am just fixing a copyright vio and inappropriate links. Caper13 17:52, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
As I am knew to Wikipedia, I would like input on how to correct something in the article related to the disposition of the bulldozer. The article (and I'm paraphrasing) states that many wanted to turn the dozer into a tourist attraction but the "town" decided to have it dismantled, and cites a news article for the source. However, that is not really what happened. It was the decision of the District Attorney's Office to have the bulldozer destoryed under Colorado Law that allows condemnation of property that is used in a felony. The DA's office was never requested (nor would have entertained such a request) to allow it to be a tourist attraction. Under Colorado law, there were only two options 1) public auction to the highest bidder or 2) destroy it. The decision to condemn and destroy it was made by the elected DA the week following the incident, and the town was not involved in the decision (although they did support it). The cited source is simply inaccurate on that point, and quotes people who spoke out of turn. The reason I know this is because at the time, I was the Deputy District Attorney who filed the condemnation action in the District Court for Grand County. Obviously I can't put that in because as I understand original research policy here would prohibit it. Nonetheless, that point is simply incorrect and could mislead a reader into believing there was some issue about the disposition of the bulldozer. 70.243.159.119 03:26, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the help. I'll have to look up the exact section of Title 16 of the Colorado Revised Statutes that I relied on when I filed the papers, and then just simply edit the article to reflect that after the incident the DA's office filed the action. It's public record in the District Court now anyway. JimZDP 04:25, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Took me a while to get back to this, but changed the disposition of the bulldozer and the related weapons to accurately reflect what happened. Additionally, change an earlier section that stated one the buildings destroyed what the former mayor's, when actually it was the home owned by a former judge's widow. JimZDP 00:10, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
I have now twice reverted User:Paruta's POV edits. Other editors have also reverted similar edits.
It is inappropriate for this or any other Wikipedia article to characterize Marvin Heemeyer as a hero. If you have reliable sources that verify that some people think he was a hero, then that can be included in the article. If all you have is your own personal opinion, then that constitutes original research which also violates the Wikipedia NPOV policy.
Please stop this inappropriate POV-pushing.
-- Richard 17:42, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Would it help those of you who want the "Folk Hero" tag on this incident to know:
1) Yes, Heemeyer got screwed by the government (although it was all legal); 2) When he hit the Granby Town Hall, at the time, it was connected to the Granby Library - which at the time was conducting a kindergarten and elementary school reading hour, fortunately they got the kids out before anybody was hurt; 3) One of the homes he wrecked was not the home of a "former mayor" (I've corrected that), but the home of an elderly (80 yrs+) judge's widow and her daughter, who ruled adversely to him in his cases against the county and town (fortunately they weren't there); 4) He hit the newspaper offices. That was related to the position that they took opposing bringing casinos into Grand County, which was an intiative of his that many in that tourist community opposed (I think there is something about that in the 1st Amend, but I'd have to check); 5) He fired a .50 caliber into giant propane tanks, which, thanks to great mountain ventilation, did not explode and kill a lot of people.
I point these thing out, not to demonize Heemeyer or open a debate on his actions, but to illustrate how stating that Heemeyer is a "folk hero" does NOT improve the article, because there is much evidence to the contrary. My understanding of Wiki is that it describes and illustrates the topic in as neutral a point as possible. I'm new, I could be wrong JimZDP 01:46, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
You are correct when you say that the argument is whether or not he should be a folk hero, and I was simply pointing out that there are many reasons NOT to consider him a folk hero; thus it's better for the article to stay away from that. Everthing I stated can be verified by Grand County SO reports and court filings.
We could end up with a "he's a folk hero because of this" and "he's not a folk hero because of that" and then the article would distract from what happened. As I understand Wiki, and I admit I'm new to this, that shouldn't be the purpose of the article. In all fairness, I can see why he did what he did, and at the same time argue he shouldn't have done it that way. Perhaps the page would be better if we did expand it in such a fashion, and put it into the context of eminant domain, government abuse, etc. If you're willing to flesh it out that way, I will certainly be glad to participate.
With that background, your point makes very good sense, and is a reasonable compromise. As I said, I'm new to Wiki, and hoped to contribute something. I don't mind getting into it with a drvie-by vandal, but you seem to have worked it out, so I'll step back. If you would like to expand this article as I suggested above, I would be glad to work on it as well. 69.155.30.148 09:44, 30 January 2007 (UTC) Sorry, forgot to log in and sign correctly JimZDP 09:47, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
The sentence stated that some speculated that Heemeyer had a terminal disease, but his autopsy showed good health. The statement does not really contribute to the article. There was a lot of "speculation" about what happened. But that sentence was about as helpful as "Some speculated that Heemeyer didn't clip his toenails that day, but a careful examination of his feet reveals he did." All it does is stray a reader from what happened that day. JimZDP 02:19, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
I see your point, but it overlooks the fact that he 1) didn't have a terminal disease and 2) he spent 18 months doing some VERY HEAVY lifting to turn the 'dozer into a tank (pretty unusual type of work for somebody who is terminally ill). There were all kinds of rumours about the man, most of them nothing more than guesses by people who knew nothing about the matter. I didn't believe it really added anything, but I'm not married to it, so if you believe that piece of gossip is somehow more worthy than all the other gossip than put it back it. It's not inaccuate, I just believed it to be gratuitous. JimZDP 07:23, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
There are many sources. 5 of the first ten top Heemeyer sites agree, —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.107.81.62 ( talk • contribs)
im going to remove it,it is not needed here
looks much better now
"FOUR TILDES" 17:26, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Marvin Heemeyer represented to many individuals the frustration that the common man has with corrupt, lumbering institutions. Yet this article makes absolutely no mention of the fact that so many people consider him to be a hero, not even in a passing sense. On the other hand, I've noticed that the article DOES make an effort to paint the man in a very broad stroke the other way. Portrayals of the people shooting at Heemeyer being compared to "bronc busters riding a dragon", along with, for some reason, the inclusion of a notation of that nut who stole a tank and drove it on the highway. It doesn't take brains or ambition to crash a tank into a median; on the other hand, to express one's absolute frustration with the system in a homemade vehicle like Heemeyer did took long, careful, intelligent planning. While I would assume that one would try to keep this article NPOV by omitting the more blatant statements of Marvin's heroic struggle against the corrupt town of Granby, I think that it's at the moment skewed a little too far the other way. At the very least mention should be made of his status amongst ordinary citizens as a folk hero. 67.94.201.2 11:24, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Answer: Because random destruction of property, firing guns at police officers, and committing suicide doesn't make you a hero, even if you do it in an armored tractor. Furthermore, such a statement would not be a neutral point of view without citing a reliable source that calls him that. (Note: "not reliable" does not mean "obscure," read WP:RS.) Wikipedia is not for pushing personal points of view or praising things you like, it's about presenting facts in an objective manner. -- Hi Ev 18:17, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Furthermore, I happen to recall a certain widely-misinterpreted Amendment to the Constitution of a certain huge North American country, instead of providing the right to carry weapons, in fact explicitly allows ARMED INSURRECTION by a citizen against a government that has wronged him. Thus, in certain interpretations of law, his actions are actually fully legal. Aadieu ( talk) 16:06, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
There is every indication to believe that Marvin Heemeyer is notable percisely because many people believe that he is a hero. To not mention that in the first paragraph is unforgivable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.32.77.36 ( talk • contribs)
Please read the discussion immediately above this one. If you can come up with a verifiable citation to a reliable source, we can include it. -- Richard 20:51, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Everyone, look up the IP's of the people pushing Heemeyer's "hero" status. At least half of them are from the San Francisco Bay Area. This is just the work of a single person trying to make it seem like a popular view. This individual has been POV editing/vandalizing the article for over two years. JScott06 18:59, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Marvin is a hero and that's fact. He is notable, he has 2 Russian fan sites by the way, so he is known over the world. He is nore notable then all the articles about US presidents, parties, organisations together taken. M.V.E.i. 20:34, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
I agree with the May 2007 proposal to merge Killdozer (bulldozer) with this article. The articles are largely redundant. There is no "killdozer" other than the one in this incident. It is not independently notable. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:02, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Killdozer is a short story by Theodore Sturgeon and one of few existing stories about rampaging bulldozers. Quite surprised it wasn't linked in this article when "Killdozer" was mentioned. -- (R. Brown, reader not Wiki editor) 25 September 2010 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.112.96.185 ( talk) 12:03, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
So which is it? $4 million as stated in the 3rd paragraph of the Rampage section, or $5 million as stated in the third paragraph of the End Of Rampage section? DemonJuice 01:15, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
too many redundant facts. there were camera monitors mounted on the dozer, he did/didn't go out of his way to avoid hurting people, he died by self-inflicted gun wound. you only need to mention each once. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.213.220.186 ( talk) 20:46, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
More redundancy:
and
I just saw this guy on the tv, and I was wondering if we could put in a short section about it being on. The tv's show was called Shockwave, which I think was on the history channel. Niwradian ( talk) 08:20, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Having read the article, I have the following questions, which I believe the article should answer (and I'd also welcome someone elightening me):
1) The article states that he shot people, but that he was fully encased in concrete. How did he manage to shoot them through the concrete?
2) The dozer was guided by 3 cameras. Why did no one think to knock them off? - mattbuck 04:20, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
"Had these tanks ruptured and exploded, anyone within one-half mile of the explosion could have been endangered," the sheriff's department said"
The current article contains the above which appears to be a lie. A ruptured propane tank can not by definition explode, in fact fire fighters pierce gas canisters they can't move away from a fire so they don't explode. 81.228.145.99 ( talk) 16:54, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was no consensus to support move. JPG-GR ( talk) 18:34, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Marvin Heemeyer →
Marvin Heemeyer SUV rampage
Marvin Heemeyer bulldozer rampage — It strikes me that the article is about the "rampage" more than the person, and that the assertion of notability for a Wikipedia article comes from that event, so unless Martin Heemeyer was otherwise notable, I propose a move. per the proposal at
WP:N/CA. —
Artichoke2020 (
talk)
15:30, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.Why "SUV rampage"? He used an armored bulldozer. Mike R ( talk) 15:48, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
A civilian owned FNC cannot possibly be an "assault rifle" or "assault weapon". The first term refers to a fully-automatic military firearm, and the second is a term cooked up by the anti-gun legislators to demonize civilian ownership of semiautomatic rifles. The term is offensive. -- 69.129.184.186 ( talk) 16:15, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
Since so many people want this guy in the "hero" category, can I petition for him to be in a list of "blue-collar communist nutbags" too?
Just askin'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by DarkSaturos90 ( talk • contribs) 02:08, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I don't know why you made a subsection. I don't consider Heemeyer a hero, but he did have the constitutional right to keep and bear arms. 69.129.184.186 ( talk) 01:02, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
The article indicates a "front-end loader" attempted to stop Heemeyer. A front-end loader is usually identified by the loader on the front. The video of the incident depicts a scraper (one example is a Caterpillar 621B [3]) which is the earthmoving equivelent of a woodworking tool called a plane [4]. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.111.16.50 ( talk) 02:17, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
Whatever the vehicle that was used to try to stop him was the driver deserves more honor for what he did. Not anyone is gonna stop a bulldozer with his scaper or loader. He actually trapped the dozer in an alley and the engine of the dozer failed after ripping through a steel building. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.251.42.4 ( talk) 06:52, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
Yes, but the honor and heroism issue is totally separate. The video shows a road grader [edit: sorry, scraper, actually], not any sort of loader. I'm going to go ahead and fix this. 136.176.104.93 ( talk) 02:49, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
I removed José Bové from the See also section because the main article does not say that he bulldozed a McDonald's (main article quote: "The event which brought Bové and the Confédération to the foreground, was the dismantling of a McDonald's franchise in Millau (Aveyron), in 1999."), therefore an editor added a {{fact}} to this article. It's pretty ridiculous to add a citation to a see also entry that's loosely related to the article topic. momoricks (make my day) 00:53, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
I have a source that states that the bulldozer was a caterpiller d9 not a komatsu d355a. I'am a Colorado resident myself my uncle was in Granby when this happened. I'm 100% sure that it was a caterpiller not a komatsu. Please fix this.( http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/3390654/detail.html). Not to mention the source in the bulldozer modification section states that it is a caterpiller.-- Bubba98988 ( talk) 02:32, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
I'm not truely sure this has been pointed out- while the article's intro states he commited suicide using a shotgun, further in it's stated that he did so with a .357 magnum and no shotgun is mentioned. 69.121.179.87 ( talk) 21:56, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
as he reduced the Gambles hardware store to rubble
This may have been Heemeyer's intention, but he didn't do anything like that. The available footage clearly shows that he managed to destroy one wall only before the dozer was immobilised. Perhaps there's a better phrasing we could use? Centrepull ( talk) 01:39, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Is the audio Marvin Heemeyer recorded before the rampage available anywhere? Coolgamer ( talk) 23:47, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
There's no sourcing whatsoever for the assertion that this image actually is of him. NNDB is a tertiary source that accepts user submissions, they explicitly claim to value "correctness over verifiability" [7]and they don't provide any provenance at all (that I can find) for the image to determine whether it is him - no information on who took it, when, or why; no description of why they believe it is him; no image that isn't cropped to a tight facial shot. More, there genuinely don't seem to be any other images of Heemeyer out there, so there's nothing we can compare the image to in order to determine consensus. I don't feel the image of Heemeyer actually adds much to the article, either - the article is mostly about the bulldozer attack, and the bulldozer image is far more informative. Unless this image can be verified much better than it currently is, it doesn't belong here. — Gavia immer ( talk) 16:31, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
No article is completely without bias, and most of the information contained are facts gleaned from many news sources. I'd like to know why people think there is anything at all wrong with the article.
(1)Initial reports said that Marvin deliberately avoided injuring anyone. Eyewitnesses corroborated with those facts. Subsequent reports that Marvin was intent on injuring anyone is not affirmed by people who saw the incident. Marvin clearly had the ability to kill, but he didn't. He only wanted the country to learn of his plight, so that Americans realize that the injustice could affect any hard working American.
(2)Marvin is regarded in large areas of the United States as a modern day hero. Few people say that he was filled with malice. Most people could understand why he did what he did.
I'd like to see the dspute closed because there is nothing wrong with the article.
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Marvin Heemeyer/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
At one point this article indicates that the vehicle was entered by SWAT via explosives, then later it mentioned it was opened via blow torch. Having seen the videos and pictures it was the latter. |
Last edited at 07:01, 17 February 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 15:20, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
The following sentence (section Bulldozer modification) seems to be out of place in the context.
-- Mortense ( talk) 08:49, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
Intro, para. 2:
The reference given for this paragraph doesn't say that the factory caused Heemeyer's business to fail. It may very well have done so, but it's not documented here, so I'm changing that to "that he believed had caused his business to fail". -- Thnidu ( talk) 01:17, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
In addition to this article being biased -- not only does the author include absolutely no potentially negative information or sources, but phrases like "monumental effort" (by Heemeyer to save his business) abound -- it is, quite simply, poorly written. Ambiguity and/or downright inaccuracy are contributed by several assertions; for example: "When Heemeyer requested to extend a sewer line across eight feet of the plant's property, he was denied. This resulted in a $2500 fine that Marvin had to pay." Does the author really mean to say that requesting the extension of the sewer line resulted in a fine? That's ludicrous; almost certainly, any fine actually levied would come from actually violating a code (or at least not from merely requesting a permit).
The NPOV tag is more than justified. I am also adding cleanup and deletion tags to ensure that this terrible article (in its current iteration) vanishes from wikipedia as soon as possible, hopefully to be replaced with a reasonable, unbiased, well-written piece. This is without question a newsworthy event and one which needs to be described on wikipedia, but any relevant article absolutely must conform to some minimal standard of quality. Rbmoore
I am from Russia and i wont say: god bless Marvin`s soul, very russian soul. Hi`s a hero for us - russian people.
Stop BSing about "russian soul" will you? I'm not aware of any of you Russians doing a similar thing.
108.59.1.241 (
talk)
10:46, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
The author is somewhat biased I will agree, but much of the article's bias IS because the subject and the information surrounding it are biased, there isn't really a lot to be said for views opposed to Heemeyer, because apparently nobody can agree on facts detracting from his actions. I belive some minor revision is in order, but I don't really think this article is "biased" or "poor". I think it's a decent article and that the author just needs to remove things that are opinionative in a few places. It doesn't merit the kind of harassment some people seem to be levying here. Note to the author and in general: It's alright to have an opinion, it's hard not to with any story, just don't write your opinion in. Perhaps find facts that support your opinions, but don't make inferences about others based on yourself and as much as you support your opinion, do your best to support those opposed to you if possible, because in the end it makes your own even more plausible by the fact it stands against opposing opinions in full strength. Nathaniel 13:43, 27 October 2005 (EST)
Major Russian search engine yandex.ru find "over 19 thousand matches" for search in Cyrillic for Марвин Химейер, as well as suggesting it as the most likely search when just "Марвин" (Marvin) is typed in. Top matches, after wikipedia Russian and my lurmore.ru link are to a Marvin fanclub and an article called "Marvin Heemeyer: The Last American Hero" (in Russian). Does that perhaps look like more solid proof of an internet phenomenon and folk hero status? 208.127.80.59 ( talk) 08:34, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
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The result of the move request was: No consensus ( non-admin closure). Yashovardhan ( talk) 11:24, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
Marvin Heemeyer → 2004 Granby, Colorado, bulldozer rampage – Heemeyer is not notable as an individual per WP:BLP1E. The event is, however. Want to give everyone a chance to come to consensus on new descriptive title. Mark Schierbecker ( talk) 20:16, 19 April 2017 (UTC) --Relisting. — Martin ( MSGJ · talk) 15:19, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Another section alludes to Heemeyer's Russian fan base. I can attest that this is absolutely true, to the extent they are claiming Heemeyer WAS Russian. The article gives no information on his ethnicity, cultural background, immigrant status, etc... other than to say he was an "American". Where was he born? Where were his parents born? Is "Heemeyer" a common Russian name? Is there any information, anywhere that can resolve this question, that could be included in the article? 2605:6000:6947:AB00:D16B:F4F4:1B1C:309E ( talk) 10:15, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
He was born in Castlewood, South Dakota. Ref https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/46319096/marvin-john-heemeyer Ala Bahma ( talk) 19:34, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
I don't think any of this part actually happened (under "Motivation" section) "He had sex with kylie Jenner's cousin felicia inside the tank prior to the attack. He mailed these to his brother in South Dakota shortly before stepping into his bulldozer. Heemeyer's brother turned the tapes over to the FBI, who in turn sent them to the Grand County Sheriff's Department. The tapes were released by the Grand County Sheriff's Office on August 31, 2004. The tapes are about 2.5 hours in length.[20]" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.107.137.127 ( talk) 20:38, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
The article states that
" His ire was particularly intense over fines for violating city health ordinances when he was forced to dump sewage due to zoning disputes with a nextdoor concrete plant."
(also, typo there, "nextdoor" should be "next door")
But this article, and other news articles, state that Heemeyer didn't connect to the sewer line himself- it wasn't as if the zoning forced him to dump sewage.
The truth is that Marv dumped his sewage into a concrete mixing tank on the muffler shop property, which had no septic tank nor any leach field attached.
https://killdozerbook.com/2018/09/bogus-killdozer-youtube-full-of-false-facts/
By that time Heemeyer had decided to sell but the town of Granby wanted assurances that if he sold the new buyers must have a legal sewer connection put resulted, ultimately, in Heemeyer being fined by the courts for contempt since he had refused to obey the town’s laws.
https://www.skyhinews.com/news/tiffs-predated-zoning-fight-land-deal-issues-took-place-before-town-squabble/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.204.89.200 ( talk) 01:01, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
In the introductory section of the article there is a completely incomprehensible sentence: "Heemeyer had feuded with Granby town officials, particularly over fines for violating city health ordinances when he chose dump sewage due instead of installing a proper septic tank."
Presumably it should be "Heemeyer had feuded with Granby town officials, particularly over fines for violating city health ordinances when he chose to dump sewage instead of installing a proper septic tank."
I can't edit due to the article being locked for vandalism.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.17.168.140 ( talk) 12:52, April 12, 2020 (UTC)
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change all instances of the word "bulldozer" to "killdozer", unless the word "bulldozer" is used to explain what the "killdozer" was, or if referring to a bulldozer separate to the killdozer CREAMartaccount ( talk) 02:37, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
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FlightTime (
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02:38, 19 April 2020 (UTC)I would like to suggest changing the title of this page from "Marvin Heemeyer" to "Marvin Heemeyer (American rampager)". I think it had a better ring to it, and would match the title format of the linked page "Shawn Nelson (American rampager)". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cadeblade99 ( talk • contribs) 13:16, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
Some missing facts for this section:
- "The land was bought at auction from the Resolution Trust Corporation, which administers the holdings of failed banks. The Docheffs had owned the property but lost it to the bank" - https://www.skyhinews.com/news/tiffs-predated-zoning-fight-land-deal-issues-took-place-before-town-squabble/
- "When the land went to auction, a friend and business associate of the Docheffs had hoped to buy the property so that he could sell it back to the Docheffs at a later time." - https://www.skyhinews.com/news/tiffs-predated-zoning-fight-land-deal-issues-took-place-before-town-squabble/
- Heemeyer said he offered to sell the property to Cody Docheff on the day of the auction for $66,000, after being confronted by Docheff immediately after the auction - https://www.skyhinews.com/in-depth/bulldozer-in-granby/audio-hear-from-marvin-heemeyer-himself-in-recorded-manifesto/#:~:text=These%20audio%20recordings%20were%20made,be%20Heemeyer's%20unofficial%20%E2%80%9Cmanifesto.%E2%80%9D (part 1) 45.46.252.14 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 05:38, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
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Hello, I found a Childhood Photo from a Middle School yearbook of Marvin Heemeyer on ancestery.com i do not know how to upload a file [redacted].
-Evan
2603:6000:9344:B500:3980:AA1F:5577:C9FE (
talk)
17:14, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
I have encountered many people in the USA who celebrate "killdozer day" on June 4, and who regard Heemeyer as a folk hero. I believe he should be described as such, as he meets all common criteria for that title.
There's an argument to be had back and forth, and I understand if Wikipedia isn't designed to/doesn't want to take a stance on the issue, but I think changing his "title" from welder to folk hero is something that should, at the very least, be considered and discussed. 2601:446:C200:3410:71A8:149D:E793:B2AF ( talk) 07:45, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
I'd call him more of a Incel than a Folk Hero. He meets all of the common criteria for that title too. 97.114.171.179 ( talk) 02:15, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
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Change "far-right extremist boogaloo movement" to "extremist boogaloo movement". It's anarchist/libertarian, which doesn't have a place between left and right. Adog312 ( talk) 02:24, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
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Please add this photo to this page https://drive.google.com/file/d/1A2mwX-Qrqv3gsLavi5g0DGKY_LoGsXlC/view?usp=sharing This is another photo of Marvin. 2603:6000:9344:B500:40EF:8186:D413:7415 ( talk) 17:16, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
I came to this page after watching the 2019 Documentary "Tread" and wanted more information. However, I found the sections related to the Zoning Dispute and the motivation to lack in clarity.
I think the Motivation section should either come before sections directly related to the attack (at time of writing, "Bulldozer Modification", etc.) or should become a parent section enveloping "Zoning Dispute" as a subsection, as it seems the only reason the zoning dispute is relevant is as motivation for the attack. This would also facilitate more reasons being listed in the parent Motivation section.
The description of the sale of land to build a concrete plant is unclear. I did not grok whether Heemeyer willingly sold the land at a profit instead of and after buying it to build a muffler shop. I also could not tell whether the price changed several times in normal negotiation or because Heemeyer wanted to spike the deal. Thirdly, it's unclear what the sale has to do with the zoning dispute. The last paragraph indicates that Heemeyer wanted to block construction of the concrete plant - it's unclear to me why he would do this if he was engaged in the sale of the property; my hypothesis is that Heemeyer was unaware of why the land was being bought and sold it in the end, and disagreed with it being zoned to allow the concrete plant, and then embarked in a long battle with city zoning policy. Whatever the case, the current "Motivation" section makes Heemeyer's motivation sound primarily religious, without the context of his civic grudges, and I think this should be rectified.
Further motivations ("grudges") relating to other individuals in the town can follow in the same section.
Opticaliqlusion ( talk) 00:03, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
The documentary Tread is mentioned in the popular culture section, but there is no link and minimal information. Could someone perhaps add the link and a bit more about it? 72.138.144.38 ( talk) 16:02, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
The lede has
Heemeyer had feuded with Granby town officials, particularly over fines for violating city health ordinances after local officials made it financially impossible for Heemeyer to connect to the city sewage system.
There's no ref, but that's normal for ledes. The supporting text in the body of the article is:
He was subsequently fined $2,500[6] by the town council and a city judge for various violations, including "not being hooked up to the sewer line"; he had initially been unable to connect to the new sewer line as the line ran 60 feet (18 m) away from his property and the city expected him to pay the nearly $80,000 cost of laying the connector.
The ref [6]] in the early part of the paragraph does not mention or support anything about $80,000 or a sewer connector. The closest is comes is "He was also upset over a $2,500 fine for not having a septic tank and other city code violations involving his muffler shop."
So my basic question is, how is it financially impossible to pay $80,000 for a sewer line? It's a fair bit of money, but I mean in my town it costs about $40,000 to build one for your house and connect. It's just an expense of having property. If you have a gas station and you have to replace the tanks as they age and start to leak, that's like a million bucks. You're supposed to set some of your profits aside for property maintenance and upgrade. If you shop is viable and you don't have the money on hand you can borrow it.
What was the town supposed to do differently? Let him not have a sewer line and/or septic system? Pay for the work itself? It sound like the $80,000 was not like something he had to give to the town, but just the price a private business would charge for doing the work? Or was the town saying "you have to have the connector built, and also give us $80,000 on top of that"?
I'm just a driveby, but can we have explanation for "financially impossible", and a ref, or else remove from the lede? Herostratus ( talk) 11:33, 4 May 2021 (UTC) financially impossible
Why is the only article about the rampage about Marvin Heemeyer? there should be a separate article discussing the “2004 Granby, Colorado Bulldozer Rampage”? There are more articles on the internet that discuss the events that occurring during the rampage than Heeymer himself. While there is lengthy information about Heeymer, there is enough information regarding the rampage on this article to split them into two. One article should discuss Marvin Heeymer and the other should discuss the 2004 Bulldozer rampage. CanadianOntarian ( talk) 01:01, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
This article reads somewhat like victors history. Viewing the video coverage of the event, Heemeyer was very specific about the property he intended to damage, not wrecking everything in sight. He gave plenty of time for people to get away, destruction was slow and relatively gently done. Video shows that the Komatsu D355A bulldozer gradually overheated due to all the protective steel plating. Also, it did not become jammed or get stuck, the engine quit (seized) due to massive overheating that blew out the coolant (rather than damage caused by debris). The officers who attempted to stop the (very slow moving) vehicle were at best pretty naive trying to shoot small arms at what was clearly thick plate steel, same goes for those riding on top etc. Officers would have been better if they had just cleared the way, rather than playing the John Wayne hero type. Finally, the admission about disposal of the vehicle (to prevent souvenir hunters) speaks volumes about the kind of sympathy many people feel towards the guy.
Clearly Heemeyer was an extremely vexated character, suffering a mental imbalance, a year's making (most likely due to a corrupted bureaucracy). He surely can not be considered or remembered as any kind of hero, but this entry stinks of the all to often establishment misdirection, cover-up and character assassination of a man driven to his limits. The entry reads more like a Netflix script than an non Point-Of-View, unbiased encyclopaedia entry. It really sucks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.140.253.222 ( talk) 16:08, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
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In the ‘’in popular culture’’ section, add that the killdozer was featured in the games ‘’scribblenauts unlimited’’ and ‘’scribblenauts unmasked’’ Mrenderboyo ( talk) 22:42, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
The company building the concrete facility across the street from his business disconnected his business from the city sewer. 2600:8803:7583:E400:1A4:90CD:DD43:639C ( talk) 17:27, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
The intro to this article has more content and information (e.g. that he was fined for improperly dumping sewage) than the actual body. This is a problem. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LitanyOfBoredom ( talk • contribs) 09:24, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
The weapons listed on board don't match the photographs on news reports nor articles elsewhere. This should likely be updated with reliable sources.--Surv1v4l1st ╠ Talk║ Contribs╣ 23:54, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
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In "In popular culture" section 'C.M. STUNICH's Unholy Terrors - Scarlett Force series' should be included. Marvin and his story/bulldozer are referenced, very concisely on pages 92 -93 [kindle ebook version]. Cariad88 ( talk) 22:27, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
In the section headed "The Bulldozer," there's a quotation attributed to someone named Daly. But there's no first reference as to who that person is, or his/her position. I've gone back and looked at two years of revisions, with no luck identifying this person. Can someone knowledgeable about this case address this? Yesthatbruce ( talk) 03:24, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
The story surrounding the killdozer is frequently misreported, often for political interests (disliking the same groups and institutions as Heemeyer). For instance, it might be useful to note that he claimed access was blocked, but third-party observers have reported it never was. For the road access, there is a book by a local reporter [1] and satelite images [2] showing there was always an unobstructed road to his property. It is important to use third-party observers for some of these facts, because otherwise we might be "teaching the controversy", giving equal weight to both positions.
I'm going to make these changes boldly, but making this topic in advance, because i can only assume the extended protected lock is there for a reason. Bart Terpstra ( talk) 12:52, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
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Planning and construction section
There is a typo: boughshould be bought.
!-- Write your request ABOVE this line and do not remove the tildes and curly brackets below. --> 24.185.139.28 ( talk) 20:15, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
I have some facts that I can't seem to confirm rn, and i think the talk page is a good place to put these. This copy claims to have come from the denver post, which has an online archive, i just don't have a login.
Denver Post - June 6 (or so, someone claims):
Bart Terpstra ( talk) 21:47, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
References
Martin said the lease was up June 1, and there have been inquiries from potential buyers. Observers think the impending loss of the shed's use may be why Heemeyer launched his attack last week.
The Grand County Sheriff's Office released a statement Saturday saying that Heemeyer tried to "kill two state troopers who were hiding behind a concrete wall by pushing over the wall, however the troopers escaped."
In the second paragraph of the section headed "Timeline" a person named Code Docheff is mentioned. This appears to be a misspelling of Cody Docheff 65.17.175.90 ( talk) 16:24, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
He destroyed public property and used deadly force1 in pursuit of political goals and creating fear.
It is an example of an unsuccessful, grievance-driven lone-wolf attack
Material characterizing it as an act of terrorism:
I personally think the intelligence analysis of Heemeyer's actions as a kind of low-tech terrorism to be the most persuasive argument for the change.
1: shooting at people is deadly force. Bart Terpstra ( talk) 22:37, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
References
The antigovernment crowd that historically has flourished in the Western U.S. had been in slow retreat since true terrorism came to America in 1995. But last month, it suddenly resurfaced and exuberantly embraced Heemeyer as a fellow warrior against bureaucratic tyranny. That he'd managed to kill no one other than himself during his rampage was certainly a plus.
He had morphed from a prepper into a domestic terrorist, having more in common with a martyr driving a car bomb than a prepper determined to survive at all costs. Same methodology, different ideology.
see title
People had been advised to stay indoors because the bulldozer operator — whoever it was — had shot at police and the batch-plant operator. Children had fled the library only a minute before the giant Komatsu crashed into the building.At the newspaper office, Brower was trying to figure who the terrorist was.
Many can recall the news reports of Marvin Heemeyer's June 2004 "killdozer" attack in Colorado, for which he employed a bulldozer fortified with steel plates, much like the Franken-Trucks currently being used by ISIS.8 Heemeyer used the Caterpillar bulldozer to destroy everything in his path until he got the vehicle hung up on a building and died from a self-inflicted gunshot. Heemeyer had incorporated a monitor and camera to see where he was going and included gun ports in the steel plating so that he could also fire a weapon from his protected position.
Heemeyer is seen by most as just a terrorist, but some see him as a patriotic American for standing up to the government.
"He sold his property for $425.000"
I believe this period should be a comma, but the article is semi-protected and I cannot fix it myself. Kaisheng21 ( talk) 20:33, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
"In recent years, Heemeyer gained a small internet following for his bulldozer attack, comparable to the Unabomber's following in the same or similar communities, with people politicizing and justifying his actions as reasonable and proportional. An example of such a group is the Boogaloo boys." 1) just because it was memed, it doesnt mean that its on the same level as the unabomber following. you are mixing two completely unrelated internet cultures here, just out of political spite. 2) same with the bogaloo boys. just because a right wing noob group claims that, doesnt mean that the other 99% that meme him are right wing, to put this in is - once again - just left wing propaganda to paint the open internet part as "rightwingers". which is complete bs. 2003:CC:B734:BD80:9805:E618:79F1:1780 ( talk) 21:00, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
The article uses at least three time formats. The time format should be standardized across the article. For example, there are the following:
Nakonana ( talk) 21:32, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
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Reference link 12 directs to a video game and not "inspecting aerial photography" recommend removal Dpmwi ( talk) 15:01, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
In an effort to improve many of the poorly written paragraphs here, I may have inadvertently removed a source link. I did edits in small batches so that other editors would more easily be able to review my changes. However, @ Glman, your revert undid a lot of my work and reintroduced some plainly incorrect writing. Can we collaborate on this? Dreameditsbrooklyn ( talk) 15:19, 26 January 2024 (UTC)