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What is the correct date of death, anyway ? There are apparently two options February 14 and February 18. Does anybody know which is the correct one ? Kpjas
Where it says the Lutheran Church has repudidated Luther's anti-Semitism, it needs to indicate which Lutheran church. There are several denominations in the U.S. alone that are Lutheran, and certainly there are large Lutheran churches in Europe.
Shortened the paragraph on antisemitism. If the entry as a whole is so short as it still is now it would give a very unbalanced view of Luther's life and teachings. The passage as well was to put into the context of the time.
I agree with you RK, except for one thing -- which Lutheran church are you talking about? There are dozens of major Lutheran church bodies around the world, and hundreds of minor ones... --
SJK
62.202.117.xxx, whoever you are, stop deleting useful and true information just because you don't like it. If you think it gives an unbalanced view of Luther, go find some positive things to add to balance it out -- but don't delete stuff that's already there. -- SJK
Why shouldn't we mention in detail Luther's antisemitism in both articles? Or if, we should only be mentioning it in one, surely Martin Luther is a better article to mention Luther's particular views, than elsewhere. And the "reference" you provide is very insufficent -- merely mentioning his "anti-semitism", without giving any background on the origins of his antisemitism, or giving the reader any idea of how antisemitic he really was. (Which is something I think is important -- antisemitism is at times an overused word, and if we are going to call someone an antisemite, we better be giving detailed examples of what they said which proves them to be as such.)
"As a non-historian you should be a bit more careful." Are you claiming to be a historian of Martin Luther? I'm putting the quote back in. -- SJK
Firstly, how does it come out unbalanced? Luther said that. You might not like the fact that he said it (I certaintly don't), but the fact is that he said what he said. If it gives people a bad impression of the man, well, maybe that's the impression he deserves to have.
Secondly, if you think it is unbalanced in such a short article, then add more info, not delete it!
Thirdly, we have unlimited space here -- so there is no problem with replicating info on multiple pages. More importantly, the two pages have a different focus. Christian anti-Semitism is about Christian anti-Semitism in general -- it is not a place for the detailed treatment of the antisemitism of one particular Christian, Martin Luther. Martin Luther is. Of course, we don't have a detailed treatment here at the moment -- but leaving that quote under Martin Luther would hopefully encourage people to write about his antisemitism in more detail...
So, once more I'm going to be putting the quote back it. -- SJK
"Although many believe that Luther nailed these theses to the door of a church in Wittenberg, this notion has recently been criticized."
Shouldnt this part have a better explanation? It´s just loose in the rest of the paragraph. It doesnt clarify anything. Can somebody fix it? I´ll do some research to try to fix it myself, though.
Also, I disagree about redirecting 95 Theses to this article. It deserves a new article - I´ll try to work on it.
Yves 14:20 26 May 2003 (UTC)
Deleted link to On the Jews and Their Lies: The website shows no signs of having asked for permission to post this document. As the editor for Project Wittenberg, I know both publishers of Luther's Works quite well. To date they have never granted permission to copy any of the translations in this set. If we wish to reference the volume and page number of a passage from the work, that would be an acceptable (and legal) alternative.
Rev. Bob Smith, Project Wittenberg Coordinator and Electronic Resources Librarian for Concordia Theological Seminary, a seminary of the Lutheran Church -- Missouri Synod, A.K.A., Bob of the Fort, A.K.A. CTSWyneken
1. Translations are considered under established copyright law to be works of original authorship. See U.S. Code, Title 17, Chapter 1, Sec. 101 , 1030[ [1]], [ [2]].
2. The site copies On the Jews and Their Lies completely. In copyright law, this counts as the "work as a whole" Title 17, 1, sec. 107 (3)[ [3]]
3. Fair use analysis of the work is as follows:
2. The nature of the work is historical and non-fiction, so this factor would likely weigh in favor of fair use.
3. The amount is the full work, which finds against fair use. Indeed, its social relevance would increase the finding against fair use in this factor.
4. The effect on market, as interpreted in the courts, is negative and likely to weigh against the use.
With the finding of three of four factors against fair use, the courts will likely find it infringing. In addition, it concerns us in that recent copyright cases have found sites linking to infringing net resources to be contributing to that infringment. While the USSC has yet to rule on such cases, it is established precedent on the appealate level.
Finally, if you were to buy a TV from a fence, should you say: "But I didn't steal it?" Bob of the Fort CTSWyneken
Let's accept for a moment that the translation of Luther's public domain texts are copyrighted (which I find morally, if not legally highly questionable) and concentrate on the fair use issue:
1) Educational use: I would like to see citations that educational use only means "employed in a regular course of instruction at an accredited institution of learning (Elementary, middle, high school, college or grad school)". Currently Wikipedia, a non-profit educational project, uses hundreds of images as fair use (see Wikipedia:Image use policy).
3/4) The text is clearly part of a much larger compilation of 55 volumes. True, the text alone is probably a "whole work" as per US law, nevertheless, certainly the fact that this is a negligible portion of the marketed product should have an effect on the interpretation, esp. of its commercial relevance. Would distributing a single Encarta article have a substantial effect on the market for Microsoft Encarta?
I find the matter of fair use debatable, and I encourage the site owner very much to go through with a court case. In the meantime, it is not our job to prematurely decide whether or not the use is infringing -- we can just sit back and relax. It seems paranoid to remove a link because someone, at some point, might interpret the linked content as infringing, in which case it is highly unlikely that linking sites would in any way be concerned.
Lastly, theft and copyright infringement have nothing to do with each other. Please do not use incorrect analogies.
The text of "On the Jews and their Lies" is of high relevance and importance for the understanding of Luther's person, and I find it despicable to engage in self-censorship even of relevant links in the name of the fiction of "intellectual property". Wikipedia should set an example for common sense, not for paranoia and fear. -- Eloquence 21:42 20 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Herr Eloquence: It would seem that you desire to have your views made known as a right, not to mention seeming to give the impression of having the only right view in a discussion that would appear to have some shades of gray at this point.
For one thing, there is a bit of difference between anti-Jewish sentiments (that need to be placed into the historical and cultural context of Herr Doktor Luther's time) and anti-Semitism (coined circa 1882) of more recent history. There have been things written to suggest that what Luther said had little bearing on what Hitler said and did 400 years later, but they appear nowhere in the Wikipedia. There is no mention of Luther's forgiveness to Jewish assassins who attempted to kill him either, which is in the literature should one look. That might suggest that he very well would not have been a supporter of Hitler if he were alive then. Hitler used Scripture out of context, as well as the writings of Luther and others, to support his maniacal actions. Once again, no mention is made of that. No mention is made of the remarkable integration of Jews in Germany for so many years prior to the time of Hitler. So much for balance and objectivity in observations, no, conclusions stated more like fact than subjective opinions that show little in the way of research except perhaps for "selective research" at no great depth. There is a lot of that going around - watch a TV show, read a biased media account, and become an expert on subjects ranging from theology to history … even military strategy.
A gentleman here on the list has been known to quote the late fiction writer Harlan Ellison, "We are not entitled to our opinions; we are entitled to our informed opinions. Without research, without background, without understanding, it's nothing. It's just bibble-babble..." That is one of the problems we face when we start opining on subjects we may only have a small knowledge of not to mention prejudices of various sorts that hinder objective observation and learning that may take not a few years. I make no pretence to be a world-class scholar in any subject area, but I think that I have been around long enough to see superficiality being passed off as being substantive.
So that I may not be accused of anti-Semitism myself, let me point out that I am originally from the "Lower East Side" of New York City and that my father knew Hebrew better than probably anyone presently on the list. I am very aware that the Western European Jew did not seem to have a high regard for the Eastern European Jew and both would look down their noses at say a Jew from the Sudan. As to Herr Eloquence, I lived in Germany too once upon a time as well as two of my relatives in a later period closer to the present. They saw more of the self-inflicted guilt of some people who were not old enough to know the "Beatles" let alone Hitler. By the way, recent statistics show that Germany is now the preferred place to immigrate to by Jews, religious or not, over and above Israel and the U.S. which was stated in the popular media the other day.
In any event, there was more than one Reformation (see, "The European Reformations" published a few years ago) that were concurrent, but by the age of the Enlightenment, and thereafter, the various denominations, particularly the confessional ones, had few in the pews so that by the time Hitler came along the churches were not very full including those of the Roman Church. Hitler helped create a "union church" where no particular doctrine was adhered to except for his form of socialism. Not much unlike the Post Modern Era today were everyone has a path to the truth, but then everyone has their own truth as there are no absolutes, at least according to some.
BTW, theft is to deprive the rightful owner of what belongs to them under law and the profit derived there from. Is it any wonder then that they have international copyright laws despite opinion to the contrary that would deprive someone, or some entity from earning a living?
In any event, the publishers, etc. that have the copyright on "Luther's Works [American Edition]" may not bother about it, but I suspect that the folks at Libronix Digital Library System that put it on CD-ROM for them may not appreciate the copyright infringement.
Lastly, there are various denominations (quite a few actually around the world) that use the word Lutheran (something Luther objected to himself) in their title, but not all that many that adhere to the Lutheran Confessions and Symbolics (see the "Book of Concord") in their totality. Many, if not most, are in no form of fellowship whatsoever. Dr. Hermann Sasse was, amongst other things, somewhat of a Luther scholar, and immigrated to Australia after WWII. One might want to read his works to get a better handle on confessional Lutheranism (see the Luther Seminary, N. Adelaide were he taught - they have a web site I am pretty sure) although some of the more recent translations of his writings were done in the U.S.(especially good is "The Lonely Way" in two volumes published not long ago by CPH Publishing, St. Louis, Missouri, USA). Questions regarding confessional Lutheranism may also be addressed to http://www.lcms.org and their two seminaries in the U.S. Should Herr Eloquence be interested in the church that now represents confessional Lutheranism in Germany, you might want to contact the Selbständige Evangelisch - Lutherische Kirche (SELK) at http://www.selk.de for questions regarding Luther and his so called anti-Semitism. If you are near Oberursal, the Lutherische Theologische Hochschule is located there or you can take a look at their web site at http://www.lthh-oberursel.de and start asking questions and perhaps achieve some balance. Otherwise you may start counting step by saying left, left, left, and left with no rights.
Lastly, I have found in my lifetime that what you get free is rarely free of some payment even if it is just loss of intellectual depth. "You get what you pay for" as someone once said (if I check for copyright, I will lose all of this). Let the encyclopedia reader beware ... and be discerning. Don't take my word for it, take the time to research, compare sources, and be careful of your presuppositions even if it may take a few years.
Best Regards ... despite the difference of opinion. P.E. 20 June, 2003.
P.E., the article does not even mention Hitler, so your rant is entirely off-topic. In fact the article states that "Luther initially preached tolerance towards the Jewish people, convinced that the reason they had never converted to Christianity was that they were discriminated against." What you want to do, however, is to remove actual writings of Luther because you think they shed a bad light on him. This is not acceptable, of course. As for the copyright, I have contacted the site owner, and here's what he has written back:
Works published before 1964 needed to have their copyrights renewed in their 28th year, or they'd enter into the public domain. Some books originally published outside of the US by non-Americans are exempt from this requirement, under GATT. Works from before 1964 were automatically renewed if ALL of these apply:
- At least one author was a citizen or resident of a foreign country (outside the US) that's a party to the applicable copyright agreements. (Almost all countries are parties to these agreements.)
- The work was still under copyright in at least one author's "home country" at the time the GATT copyright agreement went into effect for that country (January 1, 1996 for most countries).
- The work was first published abroad, and not published in the United States until at least 30 days after its first publication abroad.
If you can prove that one of the above does not apply, AND if you can prove that copyright was not renewed, then the work is in the public domain.
Research at the Library of Congress shows that only a handful of the volumes in the series "Luther's Works" had their copyright renewed. Volume 47, which contained "On the Jews and their Lies" is not one of them. There is no evidence "Luther's Works" was published first outside the United States. Thus [the] work is in the public domain.
If you can restore the link to the article, I would appreciate it. I think for a condemnation to have any credibility, it must be based on hard facts, without even a hint of distortion, omission, or falsification.
The site owner has also added a public domain notice to the article, so I have restored the link. -- Eloquence 11:50 21 Jun 2003 (UTC) ________________________________________________________________________________
Herr Eloquence, I must first say that I am frustrated, not with you, but with the fact I failed to save my response that was lost because for some reason it did not auto-save. Multiple interruptions did not aid the situation either. I very much regret the loss as I sincerely think that at least some of the content might have been of some degree of help to you.
In any event, I did not think that I was ranting as you suggest or even remotely bombastic. Further, you state, "the article does not even mention Hitler." That is quite true. However, since we know which "Holocaust" is mentioned in the article, how does one separate it from its progenitor namely Hitler? The Austrian fellow from a dysfunctional, non-Lutheran family. His bizarre biography is available from different sources online (caution - discernment in reading as some have been embellished or detracted from).
You next make the following accusation, "What you want to do, however, is to remove actual writings of Luther because you think they shed a bad light on him. This is not acceptable, of course." To disregard what Luther may have said in error would be wrong. However, where did I make any such request or anything remotely close to that? I don't think anyone has, but I will try to read more of the content above to determine if such was said at all. Your accusation of my wanting to remove something is baseless. However, I do not see you being fair on balance. The article is incomplete and biased. It mentions a synod, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA). There are some whom no longer call the ELCA Lutheran based on various actions taken by the leadership in recent years that they consider not in accord with the Lutheran Confessions and Symbolics as may be found in the "Book of Concord" (which not all synods using the term Lutheran adhere to completely, e.g. some of the Scandinavian synods). Nevertheless, that is another issue. What that synod said in 1994, right or wrong, does not encompass the view of all in its wording. I find it interesting that something that the article author had available to him is curiously absent, or perhaps he did not realize that he had the information giving him the benefit of the doubt. The following is a statement by the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod in 1983:
"Resolved, That, in that light, we personally and individually adopt Luther's final attitude toward the Jewish people, as evidenced in his last sermon: "We want to treat them with Christian love and to pray for them, so that they might become converted and would receive the Lord" (Weimar edition, Vol. 51, p. 195)." The full text may be found at, http://www.lcms.org/cic/luther.html . Now, that information might, if made available, place the article in better balance and not help promote discord. I would suggest reading and digesting each resolution found at the aforementioned web site.
"Luther's Works" comes in a few different editions, such as the Weimar Ausgabe (edition), which is in 65 volumes in German (1883) and the St. Louis edition of around the same period (1881) of some 24 volumes. As to the question of copyright of the "American Edition of Luther's Works (known as the AE)," I don't know how I got into that issue. However, you make claim that Volume 47 of the AE did not have its copyright renewed. Now, the AE was 54 volumes, but now has a 55th volume that is the index to the series. Does it not seem strange that a publisher would exclude volumes when applying for copyright? That is why I looked and guess what, the title page of Luther's Works, Vol. 47, The Christian in Society, IV contains the following: "Copyright© 1971 by Fortress Press. All rights reserved. No part of this publication may be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system, or transmitted in any form or by any means, electronic, mechanical, photocopying, recording, or otherwise with the prior permission of the copyright owner." Its Library of Congress Catalog Card Number is listed as 55-9893 and the ISBN is 0-8006-0347-8. Now, doesn't that evidence a valid copyright under U.S. copyright law? I think that the Rev. Bob Smith is also a knowledgeable person in that area having acquired a Master of Library Science quite a while ago. I know Bob, and he has always been up to date on such matters and is well acquainted with the Library of Congress, etc.
BTW, Luther's invectives against the Jews were largely ignored at the time and the sale of them poor. It is regrettable that he said some things, but one must also consider the times when they were written, the "Middle Ages, full of superstitions, etc. It is no excuse, but again I would look at Luther in his totality and not selectively to serve agendas.
That is all I have to say on the subject. Those who are wont to study further should do so and attempt to remain objective and discerning.
I almost forgot, the CD-ROM edition of recent vintage is copyrighted as well.
Best regards, PE 21 June 2003
_______________________________________________________________________________
In continuing the discussion,
"ON THE JEWS AND THEIR LIES by Martin Luther, in this year 1543 Translated by Martin H. Bertram"
"The following text is the English translation found in the hard cover edition of "Luther's Works," Volume 47, pages 137-306, published by Fortress Press/Philadelphia (1955). Trough a failure to renew the copyright in 1983, this fine translation has fallen into the public domain. May it cause thinking Christians to look closely at the nature of their relationship with God, and not as an incitement to evil."
The foregoing is the statement on the web site that is linked to, http://reactor-core.org/secret/on-the-jews-and-their-lies.html
The assertion by the Canadian (indicates B.C. as home) owner of page that the copyright was not renewed is in doubt as I have previously shown. Further, I can see that in the later printing which retained the copyright, 1971, that there are no changes that I can readily see. When I check the notes, they are the same notes as in the book or as on the CD-ROM all of which are copyrighted. The page owner also asserts at least one other book to be out of copyright and now in the public domain, but I have not researched that.
Looking at some of the links on "reactor-core.org," I myself would be hesitant to link to that page even if it had something of value. I find some of the pages that comprise the whole to be of questionable value. It is for others to determine for themselves if they are of the same opinion, but on moral and ethical grounds, I could not.
As to "Luther's Works (AE)," [LW] the question of "fair use" came up. It should be noted that while the set is called Luther's Works, each volume came out in different years and was added to the set at those times. Also, two different publishing houses, Fortress and CPH (Concordia Publishing House) published individual volumes that comprise the set and both have copyrights not to mention any holding by the CD-ROM version people in cooperation with the publishing houses. The volumes are on a large variety of subjects, but each volume is a book unto itself. The gentleman who owns "reactor-core.org" (please note the .org for organization and that organizations often have specific agendas) too, if I am correct, 170 pages of the book, specifically pages 137 to 306. That is more than half the book! I don't think that that constitutes "fair use."
Herr Eloquence, I did not think that you were the sole author of the article. As a matter of fact, one of the disturbing things was a name that I found associated with the effort when I first looked at it. I did not think it wise of the individual make comments that I did not think he was qualified to make. That was what initially upset me not to mention the fact of the questionable use of "Vol. 47" by the ".org" page owner. As a matter of fact, by excerpting as he did, he left out important segments to include comments that 'wish he (Luther) had not written what he did,' etc. Volume 47 is number 4 of 4 on the Christian in Society. In vol. 47 you also find polemics on what where believed to be heresies. The other volumes include many positive things if one were to read them, e.g. schooling for the young.
As to the "viewpoints of other congregations," I suspect you meant synods as congregations compose synods, supposedly of like mind in doctrine, or at least as some Lutheran church bodies understand the term. You will find that the word synod can have more than one meaning. As to church polity, I won't even get into that issue as polity varies from denomination to denomination.
There are those more qualified to edit than I. I just point out the biased stance that the article appears to take and the fact that copyright infringement may be in play. Best Regards, P.E. 20 June 2003 ___
From Bob at the Fort:
Not quite sure where to start in continuing this discussion, let me start with the copyright status of the work On the Jews and Their Lies.
First of all, the text of the work first appears in German in 1543, followed by a latin translation in 1544. The text in its original language appears in the authoritative Weimar Ausgabe, 53:414-552. The date of this edition is 1920. Since both predate 1923, the latest year when a previously published item can be safely assumed to be public domain, (see "When Works Pass Into the Public Domain," http://www.unc.edu/%7Eunclng/public-d.htm). So, the translator may create a derivative work without permission. (which is what a translation is according to Title 17 of the US Code, Chapter 1, sections 101 and 103. ( http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/101.html and http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/103.html) So, whether or not we like it, (and there is much about the law I don't like and have said so to my Senators and congressman) the fact is that legally a translation was copyrightable before 1978 and is copyrighted automatically since 1978. This translation is, to the best of my knowledge, the only one ever done of this text into English. If you'd like to do one and donate it to the public good, I'd be willing to post it. Now, the only remaining question is whether or not the work was renewed. The first edition of the work appeared in 1955. According to the evidence mentioned by PE, which I have verified, the work was either renewed or entered a second edition in 1971. It's difficult to tell which. Complicating matters is that a good number of copyright renewals are not recorded in the Library of Congress' online databases. Worse, they will not certify the results of any search that they do for you. To discover the status, I've contacted the publisher, who holds the rights to the set. I'll need to do some digging to provide references to the definition of an educational purpose and will add this info later. On the fair use criteria and how to apply them, check the information at: http://www.copyright.iupui.edu/ The author is an expert in copyright law, holding a teaching doctorate in law and a second doctorate in library science. He is a regular witness before congress on copyright issues. In the mean time, I'm content to let the link stand. CTSWyneken
Just to point out that there's a world of POV in "His call to the Church to return to the teachings of the Bible..." It implies that the Church once was BASED on the teachings of the Bible when the Church's belief is that it PREDATED the New Testament. Luther called for a return "Ad Fontes" but it was his point of view that that source was the Bible alone, rather than the Bible, tradition, and continued guidance by the Holy Spirit. I would think there could be a way of pointing this out that sounds less like the article is endorsing rather than attributing the POV. -- Someone else 02:28 27 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Well, yes, Moses, I justify my EDITS by saying they make the article better. You've now twice reverted to first-person drivel that seeks to explain what Luther said by asserting a point of view that is unattributed, reinstating the spelling errors with the blather. I won't get into an edit war, but the article has a very informal unencyclopedic tone in the version you seem determined to have. The reader doesn't need us to tell him why Luther was brusque. -- Someone else 02:35 27 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Yes, Someone else, the phrase does express a POV -- Luther's. Since this is about Luther, we need to talk about it. What I hope to have, when we're done, is two or three paragraphs about Luther and his significance at the top of the article, a TOC, and detailed commentary about facets of his life. We can, of course, explain later, perhaps under Luther and the Bible, how others viewed his call to return to the Scriptures.
On the other hand, if you can find language that retains a statement of Luther's POV, but does not make it sound like it's false (the opposite danger), go for it. Please note I left alone your change summarizing the influence on the counter reformation. It is much smoother than my original and makes the point well.
On the balance of the article, please be patient. Luther is quite important to me and I'll be at this as time permits over time. Much work needs to be done to material new and old to bring us to a NPOV and to fill out Luther's life. So far, we've not even mentioned his birth, boyhood, marriage, hymns and contributions to congregational singing, the main message of the reformation, etc. My bibliography is only a start, I've never seen any of the quotes that were on this page last week beyond "Here I stand..." and none of his most famous quotes are mentioned, etc. Much to do... CTSWyneken 11:41 27 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Was Martin Luther really a Dr.? I don't see any mention of him receiving a Doctorate. Harris7 12:14 27 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Yes, indeed, he did receive a doctorate (see http://www.lcms.org/cyclopedia for confirmation). I hope eventually to get to this detail, but haven't done the research to write about it. If you'd like to get us started (on this and other detail) be my guest. I'll add citations and refine it when I get to it.
65.238.146.2 23:35 29 Jun 2003 (UTC)
The recent work on the excommunication section is mine. I MUST remember to log in... Moses, would you be willing to add full citations to the work you've done in the Antisemitism section? I cannot locate exactly where any of the material is coming from, even the quote, to verify. Author, title, translator, publisher, place, date and page would help. Not saying you put it there, but the citation Table Talk is nearly useless, since there are literally dozens of editions, translations and versions of this collection. May I recommend adding the work to the bibliography and citing the way I'm doing with Brecht? CTSWyneken 02:29 2 Jul 2003 (UTC)
This page is developing into an extensive collection of apologetics, primarily regarding Luther's anti-Semitism. I have therefore added an NPOV disclaimer. -- Eloquence 20:29 30 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Eloquence... would you be so kind as to identify what you find to be "apologetic" on this talk page? I may be inclined to agree. Putting an NPOV warning, however, seems premature. You could have edited the text, raised issues on this page, etc.
The irony is that I found the page unfairly attacking Luther on this very point, showing signs that the authors have placed on the page whatever they'd like people to believe and did not care either to read about the issue or document their interpretation. Yet, in the spirit of NPOV, I've left such in place. Some of the language others have recently added to the article in this area may seem over the top in the other direction, but it is their attempt to bring some balance into what seemed to them to be an attempt to turn him into a 16th century Darth Vader. So, if you're serious about it, why not proposed a BALANCED paragraph? CTSWyneken 00:21 1 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Some stuff that I removed:
This is apologetic and very unencyclopedic (it reads like a poorly-written essay). Use of exclamation points, passive voice and poor examples.
This is off-topic (topic was Luther's views on killing Jews), apologetic and badly written. -- mav 01:27 1 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Mav, Agreed. To the other overnight editors... well done! CTSWyneken 12:28 1 Jul 2003 (UTC)
You can ask any Luther scholar; Luther is THE most prolific religious writer known. His writings alone form a good size library and take up copious shelf-space. This is a verifiable fact. I don't think it is fair to characterize this fact as "hero worship".
The rest of the paragraph following the statement of Luther prolificity needs to be reworked; the wording I changed made it sound like Luther was some sort of egotistical delusional, comparing himself to the Apostle Paul. Give this a day or two.
Now we come to the core of the matter, the following two paragraphs:
These paragraphs are not "hagiography" or "hero worship". They are important historical context. To convey the facts without their appropriate context is to confuse and mislead. Luther wrote a lot of things in a time and place that was very different from the 21st century. An encyclopedia that wishes to inform the reader needs to take the differing contexts into account.
Then we come to this snippet:
That snippet is very related to the topic of the paragraph. The person who added it was using a simile, an example, to make it clearer to the reader what Luthers intentions were. Read the sentence that came right after it:
The sentence I put back in was clearly clarifying and adding meaning to sentence above.
Finally, the sentence I took out:
I have as yet seen no evidence of Lutheran churches apologizing for Luther's antisemitism. What some Lutheran churches have said is described in the paragraph immediately following the sentence I removed, and could hardly be construed as apologies for anti-semitism.
Finding a public domain text of Table Talk, I looked through the section on the Jews. There was nothing like the above quote in there. Edit history shows that RK was the one who added the quote. RK, can you explain this please?
Dear Friends:
I do think it is possible to work through all of this to an acceptable NPOV article. First, as someone who likes Luther alot, let me weigh in and say that I don't think a lot of the explanation and apologia is necessary. There is a lot of context that can be set without all of it. As we expand this article, just describing his life and actions will help set the context. Please be prepared for quite a bit more text as time goes on. We haven't even begun to touch some of the aspects of Luther's life that shape our world today...
Mav, all I ask is that we operate on a factual basis. While I can see integrating such a quote in the text, and will not dispute placing it there, I'd prefer to keep the quotes in our quote section. I deliberately excluded the actual words of Luther at the Diet of Worms from the new narrative for this reason. I'll later add them to the quotes.
Please note, that, if you quote from the online version of On the Jews and Their Lies that the text is likely under copyright and posted without the permission of the publisher. I've contacted them and they assert that all volumes were renewed. They will, when time permits, document it for me. On the other hand, it is fair use to quote such a work with full attribution. The safest way to do this is from the physical book.
On Luther, the most prolific author... I think the line unnessary. In fact, I'm not sure about much of the text around it being necessary. Saying he was very prolific is easily verified. I have over 100 volumes of his words in the original languages on our shelves. The American Edition alone is 55 volumes.
We do not have to establish Luther's importance. We need only describe it. CTSWyneken 16:06 2 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I think the quotes section needs to go eventually and the quotes should be integrated into proper context. Quotes without context are useless and tend to get disorganized. They are also problematic from an NPOV perspective because the selection of quotes can convey certain emotions, and when not in context, these can become very dominant. There should be at least one quote representing each of the aspects of Luther's life and personality, and if we get too many quotes about a single aspect, these could be moved into a separate section (e.g. "More examples of Luther's use of profanity"). -- Eloquence 16:41 2 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I'd rather have no quotes at all than to put them all in the flow of the text. This lengthens the article quite a bit when done right. The problem with quoting an individual is NPOV. It is very easy to distort who a person is and what he was like, which is, after all, the point of a quote. A quotation section, or maybe a separate article on quotes, might help. On the new quotations: I have the same concern with these as the previous quotations. Where in On the Jews and Their Lies are they found? We need the reference to the physical edition and the pages numbers therein.
CTSWyneken 18:19 2 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Regarding the extensive quotes From "On the Jews and their Lies," I think much of it could go, thereby obviating the need for page numbers. Why not merely say that it is the best exemplar of Luther's anti-Semitism, which was shared by many at the time. Then place a link to the fordham website (the most available version of the document) at the bottom of the page.
I took out all that 21st century stuff. There isn't that kind of apologia on other pages on historical people. Also, IIRC, some of Luther's contemporaries also found him crude. Oh -- and put in "one of" the most prolific writers -- I think Augustine of Hippo is still at the top of that particular list.
Does anyone else think that this article is really disjointed? The headings break up the flow -- especially when there is only a sentence below the heading. Boots
Dear Eloquence:
Dear Boots: On the flow of the article, yes, it is very disjointed, incomplete, achronological, etc. let's fix it.
Yes, Augustine of Hippo is also a facile writer. We can add others to the list. I'm also an Augustine fan. But his works take up two to three shelves, while Luther's take up nine! 8-)
Seriously, one of the most prolific is very fine and quite accurate and sounds less like a cheering section. CTSWyneken 02:01 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Dear Cimon:
Could you document the information about Luther's friends editing many of his works? This really is the first I've heard of it and makes it sound as if Luther really isn't the author of his works. It certainly isn't accepted that this is so, so at least we need to qualify it, if not remove the phrase entirely. CTSWyneken 13:27 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Dear CTSWYNEKEN:
"All this" comes from a genuine wish to present Martin Luthers workss and history accurately.-- Cimon Avaro on a pogo-stick 21:28 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I've uploaded this portrait of Luther. Any objections to replacing the current image with this one? CTSWyneken 14:16 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Are you sure this is not copyrighted by the museum that owns it? Many famous pictures have been copyrighted in the past few years -- I think it started in NY with some Monets. And I disagree about the quotes. Enough to say that Luther was an anti-Semite (but not particularly out of line for Christians of his day) and that the best representation is the work cited. This avoids problems of page numbers, searching, etc. If this were an article on Luther's A/S, it would be appropriate to quote, but it isn't, so it's not. Boots 14:42 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Yes. First of all, the painting itself is in the public domain, created nearly 500 years ago. Second, ownership of the object does not in itself mean that the entity holds the intellectual rights even if, say, it were an Andy Warhol. Warhol's heirs, or those to whom the rights were sold, have those rights. Third, in the court case Bridgeman v. Corel, the court found that photography of a painting, such as this, is not sufficently creative to warrant a new copyright. Unless there's a fundemental change in the image (putting Bill Clinton in front of a portrait of Henry VIII, for example, or changing its color, images of public domain paintings are themselves in the public domain.
On the quotations, I can go either way, as long as the quote is accurate or the summary is fair to Luther and to his critics. If we quote, we should cite. This really is not a burden, it's just good scholarship. we should probably cite anyway, since the topic is controversial. CTSWyneken 16:00 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)
No need for the "condone" wording Eloquence since I am a very strong proponent of putting a great many things under free licenses (otherwise I wouldn't be here). However, I do not believe in forcing this on anybody (esp if it means their work is automatically put into the public domain without their consent). And copyright is very important to protect the work of authors in order to keep bread on their tables or, in our case, to make sure the body of knowledge we create is always added to and not wrapped up into a black box (either way it is the choice and freedom of the authors that is paramount). But I can see an analogy with creating a photographic reproduction of a painting and creating an OCR copy of public domain text. I would consider the OCR text to be in the public domain even though it did take some work by a person to create the copy (turning each page and hitting the scan button). So to be consistent I'll withdraw my round of devil's advocate and re-upload some images that JHK removed. -- mav
Here's how it works under US Copyright case law:
If you'd like, I'll produce the case citation, and, if I can find the URL, a link to the opinion.
As to the photo, yes, my master scan is very high resolution. I reduced it for upload, size in kb and physical dimensions. What specs to you recommend?
CTSWyneken 22:55 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Once again, edited before logging in. I'm responsible for the new paragraph, which still needs some work... CTSWyneken 13:49 5 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Hearing (or seeing) no objections, I've eliminated the quote section and relocated verified quotes. If anyone would like to add other verfied quotes, please do, in the body of the article and fully quote them. If their source is on the 'net, all the better. Please provide the URL after the quote. CTSWyneken 21:28 5 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Newbie, oops, edited before logging in. I clarified the date of Martins birthday and Baptismal birthday which are one day apart. jrshaw 19:09 6 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Thanks, for the correction, JR... I knew they were close together, but did not have the date of baptism handy at home. On not logging in... I know how you feel... CTSWyneken 20:22 6 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Uploaded a printable version of luther46.jpg. Is luther46c.jpg CTSWyneken 21:56 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Just added a narrative of Luther's personal experiences and what he came to believe. This is the toughest to do from the NPOV standpoint. I think I've gotten the balance right, but am open to adjustments. I think the best counter balance here would be to describe what those who found these teachings dangerous had to say as they discovered with alarm what the Doctor stood for. If someone would like to take a shot at this, go for it. CTSWyneken 01:08 9 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Edited the bit about Luther's marriage "reviving the tradition of clerical marriage." Luther may have claimed this but, by and large, the Western Church discouraged the practice from a very early date and, IIRC, Gregory VII banned it. Or it was part of the decisions of the Schism of 1054. I think it is very important that this article be less hero-worship-y. Luther's theology is one thing -- it should not only be explained (but really more under Lutheranism), but how it was different from what went before. But this is a historical biography, and it needs to reflect the fact that, at the time, the majority of people who kept up with these things remained Catholic. Also, it is important to note that many people followed Luther not because they were anti-Catholic, but anti-Habsburg and anti-Roman influence. Even Henry VIII, who split from Rome, rejected Luther's teachings as heretical. Boots
:: Point taken, but let's not go the other direction. CTSWyneken 22:28 9 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Proposal of where I'd like the article to go...
I think that the article needs a lot more work, especially since in really does not do justice to the life of Luther. What I'd like to do is have the article start with three-four paragraphs summarizing why this guy is important. We I think we're almost there with para. 1 & 2 as it now stands. What we need is a new paragraph that starts something like: Martin Luther remains a controversial figure. Roman Catholics ... etc. This should not be very long, and should hit the main points. Later, they can be elaborated upon.
I'd like to follow with a table of contents (is this feature ready yet, Eloquence?) and then a more or less orderly series of sections on the variety of things that Luther said, taught, did, reacted to, etc. I like Boots' idea of describing how that differs from what went before and also think we should have paragraphs like Luther's marriage shocked and outraged his opponents...
The trick is to keep all this in balance and perhaps move some material into secondary articles like Luther's translation of the Bible, 95 Theses to keep blow by blow detail that is fascinating from overburdening an article likely to be quite long to start with.
What think ye? CTSWyneken 22:28 9 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Dear Someone Else:
I think testify is a fairly accurate characterisation. The letters between the principle figures before and after Worms studiously avoid an outright demand for Luther to recant. The actual imperial summons calls for Luther to come to the Diet to answer questions about his writinge. It could mean a variety of things from a debate to an outright demand to repent. You must remember that Worms is a political assembly of all the governments of Germany. The young Emperor Charles needs all of them badly, since he is facing a serious military struggle against Suleman the Great and the Ottaman armies, which in this era even laid seige to Vienna. Luther's prince and, by this time, many others, thought him anything from a hero to a useful instrument to check Papal power. Charles was determined to resolve the Luther matter, but could not afford to alienate any of the states he depended on for funds and forces. Even before the Diet, a demand is not made that Luther recant. The question was: do you stand by what you taught in these books or do you reject them. Even after Luther's appearance, a commission from the imperial states is sent to discuss with him. So, while the emperor and his supporters would have preferred a straight-forward demand, this was not the actual case, although no one, then or now, doubts what was at stake. CTSWyneken 14:58 10 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Dear Someone Else:
...Even before the Diet, a demand is not made that Luther recant. The question was: do you stand by what you taught in these books or do you reject them..... CTSWyneken 14:58 10 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Someone Else -- IIRC, he wrote down the speech later. Recant implies that the meeting was in some way a formal heresy trial -- it wasn't, at least not in the sense of those of reformers like Hus. But it's an imperial Diet -- not an ecclesiastical one. The fact that Luther wrote down his speech as a refusal to recant doesn't mean that he was asked to do so -- Luther was very belligerent, after all, and the record as mentioned above is perhaps less biased. Boots
as it's suppositional, conversational, and non-encyclopedic in tone. (And needs to spell "contemporaneously" better). But as I've removed it before and it's been restored, I won't persist. If you feel it improves the article, I won't play with it. -- Someone else 23:25 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)Because Melanchthon was close to the reformer, he may well be reporting the story as Luther told it. However, we have no way of knowing for sure these words were ever spoken. Of course it is quite plausible that he may have said them to himself, rather than out loud. This might present a natural explanation why such eminently quotable words were not recorded contemporaneusly.
Boots:
re: Peasant's war: nicely done! Some minor tweaking may help (Luther tried to mediate between the Lords and Peasants first, with uncharacteristically mild language, but, in his view, got for his efforts a peasantry that twisted his words, thus his Against the Murdering, Raping Hordes of Peasants Otherwise, very good work.
re: the excommunication, I think this event needs its own section. The intro does help the section on the Diet, as the article now stands. CTSWyneken 22:13 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Hi,
I'm curious about what documented basis there may be for the lightning-strike ("Help, St. Anne..") legend? I see it is described as a legend at
http://www.luther.de/en/legenden.html
I've read that a more likely explanation was that Luther became a monk to escape (and offend) his abusive parents, and that the lightning legend was created later.
Harris7 20:44, 31 Jul 2003 (UTC)
From the article: "Luther's work contains a number of statements that modern readers would consider rather crude."
Then just below are some nasty racists remarks, attributed to him unless I misread the article, which appear to advocate burning down the houses and driving the Jews into poverty and exile, and advocate that robbers should be allowed to set upon them on the highways.
Are these what is meant by "crude"? If so, "crude" seems a bit euphemistic, for what I might term "racist almost to being genocidal".
The "Martin Luther and Judaism" section seems to be exceptionally NPOV and well written to me at present, and I don't see a current need for it to be either added to or taken away from. On the other hand, Wiki is not paper, and I would generally like to see a massive amount more content added to every article, and for the number of articles to multiply exponentially as well ;) Sam Spade 07:28, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I speak from ignorance, but I thought that Luther held some sort of governing position. Actually, I thought I'd read that he was some sort of religious despot, or dictatorial church tyrant--but I'm not sure if that is anti-Lutheran sentiment that I've seen disguised as history. In fact, this is why I read the article, but I saw no mention of any such.
His marriage, on June 13, 1525, to Katharina von Bora, a former nun, began the tradition of clerical marriage within several Christian traditions. More accurately "revived a long-abandoned tradition" Would anyone object to that? It's not a minor point after all Wetman 04:00, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)
The phrase ... added several principles to the art of translation sets up the reader but doesn't enlarge on this statement. I'd be interested. Wetman 18:01, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)
If anyone is interested, the Schaaf-Herzog article on Luther is online at: [4] It is public domain, so if someone wants to cut-and-paste, we can really expand our article rapidly and accurately. It's considered a rare, more or less POV, article written in the 19th Century. -- CTSWyneken 21:09, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I have been studying Martin Luther most of my life, and I want to compliment you all on a fine page. The fact that I see little need for me to make changes or additions is striking in and of itself, and the joy I have been taking in re-reading it is a special compliment from me to each of you. Keep up the good work! Sam Spade 07:31, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)
The book "Young Man Luther" by Erik H. Erikson (W. W. Norton & co., 1962) may be worthy to be referred among books on Luther. Its author was professor of psychoanalysis and human development and he wrote an analysis of Luther's struggles from the psychoanalytical (post-Freudian) point of view. However, he is by any means bashing Luther as crazy and the book gives a huge insight into Luther's struggle before and after his conversion. User:Matej
I recently added a bunch of rather controversial edits. I thought many of these were interesting points to make, but I understand that some of them might be disputed or considered POV. If anyone sees a problem, reply to this post (or edit a dissenting opinion into the article, perhaps). Brutannica 06:55, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Many scholars dispute the fact that Luther made his theological discoveries in the privy. For copyright reasons, I cannot quote the sources in Wikipedia, but if anyone is interested, they could look at the most thorough biography of Luther, the one by Martin Brecht: Martin Luther Vol. 1, p. 122, 227. For this reason, I'm deleting the comment. CTSWyneken 16 November 2004
I've begun adding text from the 19th century Schaaf-Herzog Encyclopedia. It solid, but a bit old. Feel free to edit it. I just want to get more of the story told quickly. -- CTSWyneken 20:30, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
If anyone can find the text of either the Obelisci, the Asterisci, or the proceedings of Luther's and Karlstadt's debates with Eck, it would be a fine contribution to the article.
-- jrcagle 23:47, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
when was the last time these articles were updated?
Is there any dispute that Martin Luther was labelled a heretic at some point in time? If not, then his inclusion in the category "Heretic" only serves to report this. It does not define him as a heretic. - Tεx τ urε 19:56, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I thought Martin Luther was a jurist to start with. Then he used his text-analyzing skills to analyze the bible, finding lots of strange things in his contemporary church, and first much later becoming a priest/monk.
I find this incoherent with the article (not that I've read it or anything ;). Am I wrong?
why is there absolutely nothing in this article that reflects Luther's views of women? where are the quotes like "If [women] become tired or even die, that does not matter. Let them die in childbirth - that is why they are there."
Is there a specific statement Luther made encouraging the suppression of witchcraft that we could add? If not, the section seems a bit vauge. Luther surely did oppose witchcraft, but I'm not so he did so in an hisorically significant way. If the section can't be made more specific perhaps just remove it?
Agreed. Sam Spade 09:02, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
An inline comment in the article questions the date of Luther's first publication of his complete Bible translation into German. This is indeed listed as 1534 according to The Bible Through the Ages, Reader's Digest Assoc., 1996, ISBN 0895778726, an outstanding text regrettably now out of print. -- Blainster 23:06, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
The latest editing change for the first section of this article is an improvement: "His call to the Church to return to the teachings of the Bible spawned new traditions within Christianity and his teachings affected the Counter-Reformation in the Roman Catholic Church." However, I would submit, "His call to the Church to return to the teachings of the Bible spawned new traditions within Christianity, which, in turn, promted the Counter Reformation as the Roman Catholic reaction" would be a more accurate statement here. drboisclair 19:34, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
Yes. Good. Done. Bbpen 20:08, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
I think this article is very Pro-Luther in some parts.
There is an advantage in it being pro-Luther because readers are invited to look at the subject "from the inside." I do agree that objectivity is to be a goal; however, there has been so much negative press on Luther in recent years. drboisclair 20:10, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
An editor removed "Roman" from before "Catholic" in Luther's Legacy section of this article. This would imply that Protestants in general and Lutherans in particular were not catholic. Protestants are not eo ipso (simply by being "Protestant") non-catholic. I made what I felt were necessary emendations. drboisclair 16:14, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
If the term "Catholic Church" is used instead of "Roman Catholic Church" it is still both ambiguous and anachronistic in that those Christian churches, which remain and have remained under obedience to the pope, have been historically known or referred to as the "Roman Catholic Church" or the "Catholic Church." The Eastern Orthodox Church as well as the Evangelical Lutheran Church and some other Protestant denominations consider themselves no less "catholic" than the "Roman Catholic Church." drboisclair 18:19, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Friends:
I dropped by and noticed massive changes in the text of this article. I'm not sure why, since, ironically, it was in areas we had edited together quite a bit and not in the ones that needed a lot of work (and still do) May I request a moritorium on these changes until we can absorb what's here now and see if they are truly improvements?
-- CTSWyneken 02:08, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
Changes that I made to this article were corrections of grammar and factual information. For example, "The Castle Church" is not the "town church" of Wittenberg. There were two churches in Wittenberg: All Saints and St. Mary's: the Castle Church and the City Church. There were links that implied that Martin Luther was a "Reformed Theologian," which is an error. Another problem was the one I listed above that by an editor removing "Roman" from before "Catholic Church." drboisclair 14:23, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
In the first paragraph, we used to use the word "tradition" to describe "Lutheran and Protestant." This is the term used currently in scholarly circles for sets of denominations, organizations, etc. that share basic theological and cultural features that distinguish them from other traditions within the same religion. "Lutheran," "Anglican," "Reformed," "Pentecostal" are such traditions within Christianity. Denomination is used in scholarly circles for a specific organization, with rosters, rules, buildings and budgets. So, Christianity = Religion, Lutheran = Tradition, Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod = denomination, and, while we're at it, St. Peter Lutheran Church of Fort Wayne, Indiana = a congregation. If no one objects, I'll revert the term.
-- CTSWyneken 10:16, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
It might be clearer to add "ecclesial" before "tradition(s)" for more accuracy; however, the first paragraph has been well improved. drboisclair 18:31, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
The next change I will make, unless someone objects, is to add "and culture" after doctrines in the first paragraph. -- CTSWyneken 09:49, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
A correction that removed Doctor in Biblia from the Martin Luther article here alleged that it was an historical error. On the contrary, according to at least two professors from a prestigious Lutheran seminary, the specific title of Luther's doctorate was Doctor in Biblia. Luther's own testimony confirms this: "I was forced and driven into this position in the first place, when I had to become Doctor of Holy Scripture against my will" [Luther's Works, vol. 13, St. Louis: CPH, p. 66; emphasis added]. Footnote 41 on this page reads: "As a doctor of the Sacred Scriptures he had the responsibility to teach and defend Biblical doctrine; and he maintained that this was just what he was doing" (Emphasis added). We read this in the "Introduction to Volume 10" of Luther's Works (10:1-2; emphasis added): "Johann von Staupitz had persuaded Luther to pursue advanced studies to qualify for the degree of Doctor in Biblia and had moved Frederick the Wise to provide funds for promoting Luther’s doctorate on the promise that Luther would be a great asset to the University of Wittenberg as lecturer on the Bible." His position at the University of Wittenberg was: Lectura in Biblia (cf. Heiko A. Oberman, Luther: Man between God and the Devil, New Haven: Yale, p. 143). QED drboisclair 00:30, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
The Doctor in Biblia degree is a doctorate in theology. Since the entire university system is a child of the Christian Church, it is often pointed out in academia that the doctorate in theology is the grandfather of all doctorates. It is not an "either, or" situation but a "both, and." I believe that leaving the data in this article gives the readers the benefit of further information on Martin Luther, whom I as a theological scholar admire and continue to study with great interest. drboisclair 06:41, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
-- CTSWyneken 20:50, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
Thank you for looking in to this. Perhaps it is a technicality that means something to people attending seminaries and graduate schools. If you judge it to be best for the article, it might be best to go back to the general "Doctor of Theology": the German sources online have it as Th.D., but theological doctorate or doctor of theology is what the degree is called in Brecht, Schwiebert, and even Oberman. I agree about the Latin and German. As you can see in the Martin Chemnitz article, I have translated all the non-English words. -- drboisclair 00:29, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
Rev. Smith, as you see from the title page of this online source, these articles may be "edited by anyone." The "prestigious" Lutheran institution is Concordia Seminary, St. Louis, and the professors in question are the Rev. Dr. H. Richard Klann, Ph.D. and the Rev. Dr. Norman E. Nagel, Ph.D., whom I have had the pleasure of studying under. Perhaps, you'd like to check their credentials. Of all the professors that I have studied under I do not know any that knows Luther better in the LCMS. Excepting, of course, the sainted Rev. Dr. Heino Kadai, who used to teach at your institution, Concordia Theological Seminary, Ft. Wayne. As I said, I have taken numerous graduate courses on Luther. I know that you have an M.S. in L.S. and an M.Div. from the St. Louis Seminary, and you are blessed to be the librarian of a prestigious Lutheran institution and on the faculty--the librarian is on the faculty I take it. I respect your credentials, and I am disappointed that you see fit to delete data, which are historically accurate. You need to point out in this article that Luther was a biblical exegete. By just saying that he was a "doctor of theology" does not give the reader all the information. Why didn't you edit some of the inaccuracies in the paragraph on the 1520 treatises, e.g.? All of us have a right to edit this article. In my case I will not put anything into it that cannot be supported. Have you checked out the LW 10:1-2? Isn't it better if we add information that is original from our own study as experts in our field? Philip Schaff was a celebrated church historian; perhaps his citations from the History of the Christian Church should be referenced, so that we can be more respectful of his words. In short I would request the same respect for my input as a fellow Lutheran scholar. Cordially and fraternally, Rev. David R. Boisclair, M.Div., S.T.M., St. Louis, Missouri. drboisclair 04:17, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
Dear Pastor Boisclair:
Thank you for providing this data. I knew Klann quite well. He was a professor of mine. I know Dr. Nagel even better, having studied under him at two institutions. I was at at Dr. Kadai's funeral as well. Knowing that gives weight to the argument you're making. My point for asking is, on the internet, anyone can say anything. If a person is not identified, it is impossible to tell whether or not their opinions carry any weight at all. Prior to your comments today, I had no way of knowing if you were an eminent Luther scholar, or someone with a high school degree who was playing with the text (if you've seen some of the vandalism we've corrected recently, you'll see what I mean) Because I have a lot of work in this and a half-dozen articles, I watch what I've gotten to very closely. Any time a change is made in those sections, I notice it in the history and see what has been done. If I can live with it, I leave it alone.
I deleted this datum from the article because the work I consulted did not have that title at all. Please note I have not re-deleted the data, since I now have some reason to believe it to be accurate. I will follow up to see if I can verify it. If I can, I'll be content to leave it, but will likely suggest translating it to an English form. One of the continuing problems with this and other articles is using vocubulary unfamiliar to casual readers. Avoiding unneeded latin is one thing I believe we should do. My point is to be sure we are as accurate in the details we choose as we can be.
I'm not saying you have no right to edit the article. In fact, I'd welcome the help. The reason why I went for this detail is it is in a section that I and others have worked over for years. I simply have not had the time to do this with the whole article. When we started, this was very bad indeed. In fact, it should be very clear in reading the article before you began editing, where we had left off, where Schaaf was quoted verbatum and where no work had been done at all.
What I'm asking for is for you not to wade in and make dozens of changes at once, without at least warning us here of your intent a day or so in advance, so that I do not have to check each one of them, which is very time consuming in a tight schedule here. -- CTSWyneken 11:16, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
At this time, with all the editing that has recently been done, it will be quite a chore to add citations to Schaaf back in. My point in bringing it up was to show that we have not just made up a lot of this material. We've often copied it verbatum from sources in the public domain.-- CTSWyneken 11:16, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
I'm content to leave things as they are at the moment and work together on this article. Schaaf is online and linked at the bottom of the article, so we can go out there to harvest material. It is perfectly fine to adjust it. Now that I'm sure who you are and know that you'll discuss here any major revisions, I'll assume the changes made without checking to be limited to minor ones. I'd suggest the best way to proceed would be to have Stan archive the current talk page (I never got the hang of how to do this) and have us begin by each reading the article as it is now. Let's then see where improvement can be made and see if a general plan can emerge. (like where to shuffle explanitory text off to little side pages) If I remember correctly, not much has been done by trustworthy authors on the later parts of Luther's life. I'd be very happy to have Pastor Boisclair author new text for these and have us discuss and adjust the text. We would also want to invite others out there lurking to join our happy throng.
-- CTSWyneken 21:03, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
In the spirit of the wikipedia, I do not mind editing of the articles here. After all, that's the point of this experiment. I do find it offensive, however, to find the work that I and others have done on this article over years, some with a lot of debate, completely revised without so much as a warning, much less a discussion. Most of the changes you've made do not change the substance of what we've done. So why change them? Just because you do not like the way they sound? Then ask. Most of us do not mind some adjustment. I take this particular article quite personally because I am tired of Luther being abused unfairly. When there are changes, I check each one to be sure that the changes have merit. When you change enough to generate a whole history page of just your edits, you cost me much time and effort.
So, please! Before you change text in volume, some of it the words of historians like Philipp Schaaf of the 19th Century, please discuss it with us. You may be suprised (I, for one, would like to see much of the latter parts of the article fully redone.
Rev. Robert E. Smith Concordia Theological Seminary Fort Wayne, Indiana -- CTSWyneken 21:57, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
-- CTSWyneken 12:11, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
When I edited the Theory of Grace paragraph I was restoring what I thought was removed by a vandal, who had left the final five or six words. I felt that this paragraph should be restored. I am glad it was. drboisclair 06:29, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
-- CTSWyneken 11:55, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
-- drboisclair 16:27, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
I'm operating from Dr. Nagel's understanding that no "tower experience" in the sense that folk in the romantic era saw it ever happened. He believed that Luther came to study one concept at a time and had flashes of insight that gave him joy and excitement. The first was over the word "penance," the most famous over the word "righteousness." Other words are spoken of in a similar fashion. What seems clear to me, however, is that Luther's theology was not as we have come to know it until the three 1520 treastises. The title of the section, for me, sounds a bit like "Luther believed this, but it wasn't true." I know that's not what the words actually say and finding a neutral title other than it is a tricky proposition. So, unless we have a "shower experience" and discover something better, I am content to leave well enough alone.
-- CTSWyneken 21:42, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
I have moved to here the emphasized passage
because after my addition of linkage to it was reverted without explanation, I went searching for more information on this mysterious "Crotur" so that he could be properly identified and linked. The only references I easily found to him were clones of this very article on other web sites, so I have moved him here until we determine if he is the product of a hoax promulgated via Wikipedia, or was an actual person with a forename and dates. If we don't know enough about him (if he actually existed) to make at least a stub article on him, then we shouldn't mention him at all, and that may suggest a different path of affinity to Ulrich von Hutten. Perhaps scholar CTSWyneken might check this out at the seminary library. -- StanZegel 23:43, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
If you notice in this article, there is an enormous space that shows up at the beginning of this article because the beginning picture and the coat of arms are placed as they are. Perhaps the coat of arms might be put on the left and the picture box on the right or vice versa to make the beginning of this article look better. drboisclair 05:01, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
Thank you, Stan for the archiving!
To one and all interested:
Several of us propose to do a full revision of the article. This is an open invitation to one and all to join in the discussion of its strength and weaknesses. Come one and all!
-- CTSWyneken 01:23, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
I'd like to see us streamline the article, taking as much of the detail in it, especially the tangents, into other articles like 95 Theses, Diet of Worms, etc. The result will be easier to read, yet will fully tell the story. For example, the detail on the Diet of Worms would work nicely elsewhere, including the debate over "here I stand..." -- CTSWyneken 09:59, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
There is a move among the administration of Wikipedia to remove the biographical infoboxes comprehensively. I urge all to weigh in pro or con. The one in this article looks good and should be retained. This requires the timely attention of all, please. -- drboisclair 21:30, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
In order to avoid the "Biography Infobox" controversy, why not make the Cranach painting of Luther into an image box like the Luther seal: one could then add the caption information. I think that the Cranach painting should be retained -- drboisclair 19:55, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
I thought the detail deleted today had been helpful: the date Luther's interview began, and a fleshing out of the context and major points of his most famous statement. -- StanZegel (talk) 13:47, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
-- CTSWyneken 17:13, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
When a moment presents itself, I'd like to thin out this section a bit. On the other side, a sentence on the Invocavit sermons is needed.
I'd like to list here the things the article is missing at this point. Please add whatever you'd like. Feel free to write new text on these...
I like the additions here very much. -- CTSWyneken 11:56, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
Either there should be substantial discussion of his writing here or it should be merged in with the more historical section. I may try to do the latter unless anyone objects or wants to do it himself. As it is the secton is out of place, in addition to not being of the highest quality.
CSMR 04:36, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
My apologies for the numerous edits in converting the infobox biography to an ordinary image with caption. I hope this is satisfactory. If not we could revert back to the infobox. drboisclair 10:34, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
-- CTSWyneken 12:54, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
The price of a good article means that one has to have eternal vigilance against vandalism of any kind whether humorous, devilish, or angelical. Of course, you cannot let it bother you. You might find yourselves laughing as teachers do when they find that students have written silly things in the manuals on their desks! drboisclair 13:32, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
With the addition of Bartholomäus Bernhardi of Feldkirchen and Gabriel Zwilling as new articles I have removed all the red internal links to the Martin Luther article. drboisclair 03:27, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
An anonymous editor added this to the section on the "Indulgence controversy": "[Note: According to Traditions & Encounters 3rd ed. Vol.2 Bentley/Ziegler, The nailing of the theses did not actually occur. This is merely a popular legend.]" I cut it and pasted it here. There is dispute on this point. Cf. Brecht, Martin Luther: His Road to Reformation 1483-1521 (vol. 1), p. 200. I have read and heard that the nailing to the castle church door was a legend; however, the theses were "posted" to Archbishop Albert of Mainz. You may wish to delete this anonymous reference along with my qualification. I believe that Philipp Melanchthon's biography of Luther states that it was nailed to the Castle Church door.
I thought it best to cut this anonymous reference and place it here. drboisclair 02:39, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
A full discussion of the issue is in the
95 Theses article. Brecht concludes, as I do, that both likely occured. He goes with sometime on or after Oct. 31. I see no reason why Oct. 31 as the date of the posting. It best explains how the work circulated so quickly. There's no evidence of the document going in the mail to a source that would leak it -- in German no less. In any case, the discussion is too much of a tangent here. As the keynote of a symposia on the subject said, "Whether they were nailed or mailed, they certainly were posted!"
-- CTSWyneken 16:09, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
I have composed this section in line with the categories listed above as needed in the article. I think that we might add something about the extended family members who lived with the Luthers as well as the college students, but this is a beginning if it is acceptable. This could lead into a section on the Table Talk drboisclair 22:31, 11 October 2005 (UTC):
(caption) Martin Luther's marriage and family (caption)
April 8, 1523 Luther wrote Wenceslaus Link: "Yesterday I received nine nuns from their captivity in the Nimbschen convent." Luther had arranged for Torgau burgher Leonhard Koppe on April 4 to assist twelve nuns to escape from Marien-thron Cistercian monastery in Nimbschen near Grimma in Ducal Saxony. He transported them out of the convent in herring barrels. Three of the nuns went to be with their relatives, leaving the nine that were brought to Wittenberg. One of them was Katharina von Bora. All of them but she were happily provided for. In May and June 1523 it was thought that she would be married to a Wittenberg University student, Jerome Paumgartner, but his family most likely prevented it. Dr. Caspar Glatz was the next prospective husband put forward, but Katharina had "neither desire nor love" for him. She made it known that she wanted to marry either Luther himself or Nicolaus von Amsdorf (Nicholas v.A.). Luther did not feel that he was a fit husband considering his being excommunicated by the pope and outlawed by the emperor. In May or early June 1525 it became known in Luther's circle that he intended to marry Katharina. Forstalling any objections from friends against Katharina, Luther acted quickly: on the evening of Tuesday, June 13, 1525 Luther was legally married to Katharina, whom he would affectionately call "Katy." Katy moved into her husband's home, the former Augustinian monastery in Wittenberg. Their first child, a boy, Hans was born June 7, 1526. He was followed by Elizabeth, December 10, 1527, who prematurely died in August 1528; Magdalena, May 5, 1529; Martin, Jr., November 9, 1531; Paul, January 28, 1533; and Margaretha, December 17, 1534—three boys and three girls. Another of Luther and Katy's daughters would not reach adulthood: Magdalena died in her father's arms September 20, 1542.
--I would put this between "Return to Wittenberg ..." and "The Peasants' War." drboisclair 22:32, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
I have added this paragraph with helpful emendations by Stanley Zegel. This could be built upon or edited. drboisclair 22:34, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
Hey, Stan, I understood that the marriage took place indoors before a small group. I know that it was customary for marriages to be held at the church door in those days; however, I do not think that Luther's was. I will research. Do you have clear research on this. Cheers, Dave drboisclair 10:22, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
Was she really Margareta Lindemann, as the article presently says? Other sources say M. Lindemann was the grandmother, and M. Ziegler was the mother. Because those whose last names begin with a "Z" are often not given their just recognition in this world, if the mother was indeed a Ziegler, she should be given credit for it! -- StanZegel (talk) 04:01, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
This is a very, very Luther is good article. I put up an POV flag and someone took it down. This isn't WikiChurch or anything. Need major editing and I can't believe my Flag was put down. It doesn't make sense.
-- CTSWyneken 11:00, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
I am proposing that a word(s) on Law/Gospel and a link to the article on Law and Gospel might be added to this section:
Luther's theory of grace The demanding discipline of earning academic degrees and preparing lectures drove Martin Luther to study the Scriptures in depth. Influenced by the call of humanism ad fontes—"to the sources"—he immersed himself in the study of the Bible and the early Church. Soon terms like penance and righteousness took on new meaning for Luther, and he became convinced that the Church had lost sight of several of the central truths of Christianity taught in Scripture—the most important of which being the doctrine of justification by faith alone. Luther began to teach that salvation is completely a gift of God's grace through Christ received by faith. {Luther's definition and reintroduction of the principle of the proper distinction between Law and Gospel safeguarded his theory of grace, which he believed to be the central message of Christianity.} drboisclair 00:05, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
-- CTSWyneken 18:34, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
Contrary to popular belief, Martin Luther never adequately understood the Catholic Church's teachings on indulgences. As a result, his inflammatory writings on the matter have caused much confusion, and have led many to imagine that the Church once handed out indulgences to the highest bidder, with no concern for true repentance of sins. This is, quite simply, a distortion of the actual Catholic doctrine, which was the same in the Middle Ages as it is today.
The whole controversy surrounding Luther and indulgences began when Pope Julius II decided to restore the beautiful Basilica of Saint Peter in Rome, originally built by Emperor Constantine. To help pay for the project, Julius' successor, Leo X, "proclaimed and Indulgence," which stated that anyone who might contribute to the restoration of the basilica, should receive, provided they make a sincere confession, remission of the "temporal guilt" associated with their sins - that is, the punishment they might receive in purgatory. This, of course, had nothing to do with future sins the contributor might make. As ever the Church carefully administered the indulgences, and allowed them only to those confessing humbly and faithfully.
Martin Luther's sermon attacking Leo X's Indulgence contained "no accurate reasoning, no grasp of the subject, but plenty of violent declamation." He personally attacked John Tetzel, who had replied soberly to Luther's charges in defense of the Church: "I laugh at your words as I do at the braying of an ass; instead of water, I recommend to you the juice of the grape; and instead of fire, inhale, my friend, the smell of roast goose."
(See the brilliantly documented "Facts About Luther" by Msgr O'Hare.)
(originally posted in the article, instead of on the talk page, 23:56, 3 November 2005 by IsabellasKnight)
With all due respect to the sincere Roman Catholic faith expressed in these paragraphs, this is simply an historical error. Martin Luther understood the concept of indulgences that they were the remitting or waiving by the pope of temporal penalties incurred by sins that are imposed by the church in its sacrament of penance. John Tetzel and his collegues did not disabuse their listeners of their simple belief that they were buying the forgiveness of sins, that indulgences were a plenary remission of eternal penalties. Luther at first did not advocate doing away with indulgences; he wanted them used properly. It was the Roman curia and the pope who blew things out of proportion by condemning Luther because he did not accept the novel concept that there was a treasury of merits gathered up of the surplus merit of Christ and the saints. This was vaguely set up in papal decretals of the then past two centuries 1300-1500. Luther encountering intransigent opposition began to investigate further into theology. This was what he was supposed to do as a doctor of theology. He was a teacher of the church, who was responsible to warn and instruct the church catholic on the true faith. I like to remember what Danny Thomas once said some 30 years ago about Pope John XXIII that if he had been pope in 1517 the Reformation would not have occurred. This may not be an historically accurate assessment, but it argues the need to get all the facts and sit down and dialogue. Allow the fresh air to air out the stale air in the church (aggiornamento). If the one who posted these paragraphs would examine the writings of scholarly Roman Catholic theologians like Fr. Harry McSorley or Fr. Daniel Olivier, he or she would have more insight to speak on these matters. Respectfully submitted IMHO, drboisclair 16:51, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Moving this from article main page to here for discussion as likely to be controversial and currently unsourced. Gaff 23:04, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Luther was prone to have religious hallucinations. Several times throughout his life, he claimed to have had arguments with satan while using the latrine. Apparently, he had human waste fights with satan, and by being the superior thrower, he would usually win the fights and cast the devil away. Whether this was true or whether he was insane will never be known, but it is safe to say these were strange occurences that no doubt affected him throughout his life.(edit by User: 70.33.58.128)
Luther may have thrown a bottle of ink at a vision of the devil--they still show the ink stain on the wall--but he never threw fecal material at anything. This is sheer nonsense. drboisclair 00:05, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
For Luther the bathroom was also a place of worship. His holiest monuments often came when he was seated on the privy (Abort) in a Wittenburg monastery tower. It was there, while moving his bowels, that he conceived the revolutionary Protestant doctrine of justification by faith. Afterward he wrote: "These words 'just' and 'justice of God' were a thunderbolt to my conscience. . . I soon had the thought [that] God's justice ought to be the salvation of every believer. . . Therefore it is God's justice which justifies us and saves us. And these words became a sweeter message for me. This knowledge the Holy Spirit gave me on the privy in the tower."
"Well, God is everywhere, as the Vatican conceded four centuries later, backing away from a Jesuit scholar who had gleefully translated explicit excretory passages in Luther's Sammitche Schriften. The Jesuit had provoked angry protests from Lutherans who accused him of "vulgar Catholic polemics." Yet the real vulgarity lies in Luther's own words, which his followers have shelved. They enjoy telling the story of how the devil threw ink at Luther and Luther threw it back. But in the original version it wasn't ink; it was Scheisse.
That feces was the ammunition Satan and his Wittenberg adversary employed against each other is clear from the rest of Luther's story, as set down by his Wittenberg faculty colleague Philipp Melanchthon: "Having been worsted. . . the Demon departed indignant and murmuring to himself after having emitted a crepitation of no small size, which left a foul stench in the chamber for several days afterwards."
Again and again, in recalling Satan's attacks on him, Luther uses the crude verb bescheissen, which describes what happens when someone soils you with his Scheiss. In another demonic stratagem, an apparition of the prince of darkness would humiliate the monk by "showing his arse" (Steiss). Fighting back, Luther adopted satanic tactics. He invited the devil to "kiss" or "lick" his Steiss, threatened to "throw him into my anus, where he belongs," to defecate "in his face" or, better yet, "in his pants" and then "hang them around his neck."
A man who battled the foulest of fiends in der Abort and die Latrine was unlikely to be intimidated by the vaudevillian Tetzel.
William Manchester, A World Lit Only By Fire, The Medieval Mind and the Renaissance (Boston, 1992), pp.139-140
-- jpgordon ∇∆∇∆ 00:44, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
Mozart also made scatological references about himself, but we do not punctuate his beautiful music with flatulant bursts. This scholar is not a Luther specialist, and the primary sources adduced do not specifically say that Luther pelted his diabolic visions with dung. To say that the toilet is a place of worship is only partly true in that God is everywhere, even in filthy places, and the Christian is to pray without ceasing. To demean Luther's sense of the holy and worship is sickening and unbecoming of a scholar.
Luther is a hero with feet of clay. His genius he shares with few, his feet of clay he shares with us all. Luther labors under the disadvantage of being a famous genius, whose every communication has been stored by the world. I daresay that all of us have embarrassing secrets that we would keep hid. Unfortunately for Luther he does not have that luxury.
Luther's Table Talk is probably the source of this unsavory aspect of his life. It is probably partly to mostly true; however, Romanist polemicists have exploited and taken these aspects out of context in order to discredit Luther's message, which happens to be the true central message of Christianity in my humble opinion.
We can be like giggling children in delighting in toilet humor, or we can show respect for a great man. In the end, the fool we make of him we make of ourselves. IMHO, David R. Boisclair drboisclair 07:09, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
First of all, this is an encyclopedia article, not a book. We should put here only the most general information.
Second, simply because something is in a book doesn't make it true. What are the sources, written in the 16th Century for this information?
-- CTSWyneken 11:00, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
I'll keep a running list of what I learn about this work under this title. The first thing I notice is that Manchester is a historian of the twentieth century, writing mostly about WWII. Medieval Mind is his only work outside that subject.
A review of the work in Word and World 14 (1994) no. 2:225-228 quotes the author's note from the work as saying: "Complete at last, this book is a source of pride, which is pleasant, though in this instance somewhat odd. It is, after all, a slight work, with no scholarly pretensions. All the sources are secondary, and few are new; I have not mastered recent scholarship on the early sixteenth century." p. xiii.
The reviewer says the work "displays a breathtaking lack of scholarship." and "obviously, the problems with this book are many. Events are sometimes related inaccurately. The conclusions drawn from particular events are often questionable. The presentation of facts is selective and biased. The method used is dubious. Someone interested in this period of history could find better books. It is hardly conceivable that one could find a worse book."
If you want to get into Luther's struggles, you need to find another work. read Obermann's Luther : man between God and the Devil and Brecht's three volume Martin Luther before adding material on this topic.
This book is not the first we hear about a preoccupation with what is called an "elimination theology": Osborne popularized this thinking with his Luther (play). I appreciate the work the above poster has brought to bear on this. drboisclair 14:56, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
Well guys, do you think this article meets the criteria for a featured article? Should we get an outside opinion on whether it is ready? -- StanZegel (talk) 02:13, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
No, Stan, I don't think we're at all ready for prime time. We have to put the whole thing on a diet, add missing topics, as I mentioned above, etc. If David has the time, we might also get Bob Kolb's suggestions.
-- CTSWyneken 11:34, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
I am sorry we have to go through this again. Recently we've had a long discussion that I thought ended with understanding and found a compromise. The current summary section misrepresents the content of Martin Luther and Antisemitism. Paul Johnson is a reputable Christian scholar. Why was his sourced quote removed? Even if there was "an anti-Christian pamphlet of Jewish authorship" (which one? just curious), I don't see how this can serve an excuse to calling for violence against entire Jewish communities. ← Humus sapiens ←ну? 10:16, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
-- CTSWyneken 12:51, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Do we wish to draw attention to John Frederick's unfortunate decree against the Jews in 1536? drboisclair 12:42, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
as his answer to an anti-Christian pamphlet of Jewish origin
Source please. Jayjg (talk) 19:26, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
because he deemed their denial of Christ to be blasphemy
Source please. Jayjg (talk) 19:27, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
Source please. Jayjg (talk) 19:28, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
Source, from the opening sentences of On the Jews and Their Lies:
-- StanZegel (talk) 19:45, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
Luther's harshness in this pamphlet was deeply deplored by his contemporaries.
This is not "obvious bunk". This is from the introduction to the translation of On the Jews and their lies: "Already upon its first appearance in the year 1543, Luther’s treatise caused widespread dismay, not only among contemporary Jews but also in Protestant circles. Melanchthon and Osiander are known to have been unhappy with its severity. Henry Bullinger, in correspondence with Martin Bucer, remarked that Luther’s views reminded him of those of the Inquisitors. And a subsequent document prepared by the churches of Zurich declared (speaking specifically of the treatise Vom Schem Hamphoras, published later in 1543), that “if it had been written by a swineherd, rather than by a celebrated shepherd of souls, it might have some—but very little—justification.” (American Edition of Luther's Works, vol. 47, p. 123).
The article states The relationship between Luther and the Jewish people is the subject of much controversy. What is the source for this claim, particularly "much controversy"? Jayjg (talk) 21:49, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
The claim that it has been the subject of "much controversy" is, in my view, quite incorrect. It was mildly controversial when written, generally not commented on for centuries, viewed with much approval by the Nazis, and finally censured in the late 20th century by almost everyone. The only "controversy" at all is a mild academic one, carried on by a small number of individuals, as to whether it is "anti-Judaism" or "anti-Semitism". The summary itself is quite short, and your "summaries" inevitably seem to contain Luther-apologetic POV, which is why direct quotes are essential. Furthermore, if Luther did indeed decry the Jews for "rejecting Christ" and "blaspheming" (which, in fact, is merely another way of saying they refused to convert to Luther's faith), then that must be directly quoted - otherwise it seems that Wikipedia itself is making the charge. Jayjg (talk) 22:57, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
I concur with Mr. Stan Zegel's proposal here. We should increase interest in the reader to look at Martin Luther and Antisemitism. drboisclair 15:47, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
If there is no evidence that it was controversial, then the statement doesn't belong on this "summary" page. An NPOV summary is both necessary and possible (and, in fact, exists now). The alternative is to restore the entire article to this page, which you removed in the first place. Continual attempts to minimize or remove any reference to this issue are simply not acceptable. Finally, if the paraphrases provided are inaccurate or POV (as they have in the past), then the actual quotes will have to stay. Jayjg (talk) 23:29, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
At the risk of sounding pedantic, I think that two issues, substantive and formal, are getting conflated here and thus leading to unnecessary counterproductivity. Here is, as I see it, the formal problem. It is well established, through a host of policies, foremost among them Wikipedia: Neutral point of view and Wikipedia:No original research that the views of editors are irrelevant to the contents of an article. The reason (at the risk of sounding pedantic) I remind yous guys of this has to do with the word "controversial." There certainly are "controversial" topics, and Luther's attitudes towards the Jews may be controversial. The sentence in question is, "The relationship between Luther and the Jewish people is the subject of much controversy." Here is the problem: it does not make clear, controversial among whom?. I raise this point because in my experience sentences like these often find there ways into Wikipedia articles when there has been a lot of contention among editors. And I believe that this is entirely inappropriate and a violation of our policies. That the question of Luther's anti-Judaism of anti-Semitism is a controversial matter among contributors working on this page, I have no doubt. But remember, editors views do not go into articles. The only thing that matters is controversies among scholars and between Jews and Protestants. This is my "formal" point: we can say that it is a matter of controversy only if the controversy is "out there," not in here.
This leads us to the substantive question. Is there a lot of controversy among scholars? This is far from my field, but as far as I know, the answer is "no." I think that most scholars acknowledge that at a certain point in his career it became evident that Luther was anti-Jew, and that this anti-Jew stance included problems he had with both Judaism and Jewish people. I also think that most Jews and Lutherans acknowledge this. I certainly remember that when the Lutherans (whatever the organ of that movement was) in effect apologized for Luther's anti-Semitism, it was a very big deal. And I was a little kid, it is not like I read the New York Times front to back every day. Like most kids I was pretty ignorant of most current affaires except for the big deals, like our losing Vietnam, Watergate, landing on the moon, and Lutherans apologizing. Anyway, that the Lutherans would apologize and that this made Jews happy signals to me that both Lutherans and Jews agreed that Luther had made many anti-Semitic remarks, i.e. there was no controversy over this.
If an editor wants to claim that I know little of the matter and that in fact there has been a lot of controversy out there (outside of this talk page, outside of Wikipedia), fine. But: show me the sources. Right now the article provides the name of one scholar, and refers to some primary sources. This to me is prima facie evidence that the topic is uncontroversial. If it were really controversial, I would expect a long list of people (scholars and leaders of the Lutheran Church and maybe even some Jews) who took one side, and a long list of people (scholars and leaders of the Jewish community, and maybe some Lutherans) who took another, irreconcilable side. I woulod expect reference to other signs of controversy: floor fights over contentious resolutions at meetings of Jewish and Lutheran religious leaders; the publication of a scholarly book that was widely attacked; a debate in an academic journal involving several scholars unfolding over several issues of the journal. To me these are all signs of controversy. Lacking them, I see no controversy. Slrubenstein | [[User talk:Slrubenstein|Talk]] 15:59, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
-- CTSWyneken 21:17, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Now that the intro sentence to the Luther and Antisemitism section of the main article has been deleted, we need to replace it with something. The section as it now reads is without transition and indication as to why we're bothering. Since I've taken a crack at it, only to be told I do not know what I'm talking about, will someone else take a crack at it?
-- CTSWyneken 11:38, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
I've taken a shot at rewording this intro. Does this work? -- CTSWyneken 11:00, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
The summary needs rework. Here are some points that need to be addressed:
Well, Humus, you have indeeded shortened it. Somewhat in the same manner as taking out the "N" shortens "NPOV." That is a prime example of why the issue is now a separate article -- so that a fair and balanced presentation can be made -- because there is no way to fairly summarize such a complex topic in only a sentence, and more than a sentence would be disproportionate in this article. This POV "summary" is not helpful. -- StanZegel (talk) 14:05, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
The Martin Luther and Antisemitism article deals with more than its present title, and is no longer really a subarticle of this one. It is an article on its own, althought it should be renamed Martin Luther and the Jews, in which Antisemitism and Antijudiasm are topics. -- StanZegel (talk) 13:45, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
I know there is continuing controversy here, over a difficult topic. For what it is worth, the current version (the timestamp of this comment minus two minutes) looks pretty good to me. Personally — I mean, this is not something I would want to get into an argument over — I would delete the sentence about most Lutherans feeling disheartened, which is vague and unsourced. Instead, I would quote one or two official Lutheran statements recanting Luther's anti-Semitism. Recanting or retracting or apologizing is a stronger statement than "disheartened" and in my opinion more meaningful — and of course it can be backed up with a verifiable source.
As to the discussion above: from the point of view of Jews, whether they are persecuted because of their race or their relion may not really matter to them, and I certainly do not think that this is relevant to this article. But whether Luther's antagonism towards Jews is motivated by, or takes the form of criticisms of, their race or their religion does seem to me to be important. This is not an arbitrary distinction and which one Luther appealed to at which time tells us something about the times in which Luther lived and the evolution of his thinking — two topics that are quite relevant to this article.
As to the link between Luther and Nazis, well, I think every scholar studying the Holocaust believes that 19th and 20th century anti-Semitism has roots in Christianity, whether the Gospel according to John or certain writings by Luther — but they also see anti-Semitism as such to be a modern phenomenon with other causes. Put another way, Luther's anti-Semitism (and/or anti/Judaism) was both the reflection or product of his time, and also contributed to the general culture of Protestant Europe (I would say the same about Hitler or Ghandi: their evil (or goodness) was both something they learned from their environment and something they contributed to their environment. In other words, I do not think this is a very controversial claim). The question is, how to express this as succinctly as possible and in accordance with our NPOV policy.
It appears to me that most contributers are differing over matters of degree and wording. In general and in principle I agree with and support everything Jayjg has recently written here. This article must have a summary of the linked article on Luther and the Jews. The summary has to comply with NPOV, and it has to be as brief as possible without sacrificing any major point of the linked article.
Despite weeks of controversy I see a lot of good will on all sides. I am certain that with time, patience to mull over different changes, and open discussion we will end up with a satisfactory summary pretty soon, Slrubenstein | [[User talk:Slrubenstein|Talk]] 00:38, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
-- CTSWyneken 13:56, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
The MacCulloch quote is brief and to the point - without it, 2/3 of the paragraph is a defence of Luther's statements about Jews, which is hardly reasonable, given that they are basically indefensible. Jayjg (talk) 21:06, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
I have added the Kittelson quotation for balance giving his scholarly view of Luther in this matter too. drboisclair 22:38, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
This section is too long. Please continue at #The way the summary stands. ← Humus sapiens ←ну? 01:57, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
An editor recently removed "a good deed offered to God" in the discription of the Eucharist as sacrifice. This phrase is precisely what the term "sacrifice" means. The RC Church believes that the Eucharist is something that the church offers to God to propitiate Him for the sins of the living and the dead. In recent years it has clarified itself to point out that the Eucharist is the church's participation in the one sacrifice of Christ, but that was not clearly held at the time of Luther. The phrase is needed to define what "sacrifice" means. Also the editor added the term "forgiven" to sins confessed that are the subject matter of indulgences. This may be a modern view of the RC Church, but it was not the position of the RC Church of Luther's day. "Absolution" or "forgiveness" conferred by the priest on the penitent was merely the reduction of the eternal penalties of his sins into temporal penalties, which were then dealt with either by satisfactions, time in purgatory, or indulgences. Forgiveness was contingent upon the completion of satisfactions for the temporal penalties. The RC Church may have modified their stance in the present day. drboisclair 03:37, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
I vaguely remember this comment being challenged as authentic:
and also one not in the article by Elector Frederick:
Does anyone have a source for them?
I'd also like to delete, if there are no objects, the details below, in interest of saving space:
Enough for now. 8-) -- CTSWyneken 14:24, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
Would also like to delete the following:
I commend the editors who have constructed the paragraph on Martin Luther and the Jews in this article. I think that a consensus has been achieved that satisfies the NPOV, etc. I congratulate you, gentlemen and ladies, for your good editing. The article is doing well on its diet. Now, of course, we must have eternal vigilance against all those Vandals. We will not sleep, Vandals! drboisclair 19:30, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
I'll get back into this later when I have some time, but I think it is important to remember that while some may want to go out of their way to force into the reader's mind at every opportunity that Luther had to be a horrible person because of some remarks about Jews, the place to tar and feather him is in the article on that subject. As long as there are links (and there are now three links from this article to Martin Luther and the Jews), there is no need to start the attack here. Readers more interested in Luther's thoughts about the Jews than his work in translating the Bible will easily be able to find the red carpet to that article. As for Luther, he spent less time thinking about Jews than he did about Christ, the Bible, Theology and other things more important to him. This redundant summary of another article is already about as long as the section on his translations of the Bible. I think even the shortened version by CTSWyneken is too detailed, and I wonder why there is even (other than advocacy for a POV) a "summary" on this topic at all, when there is none on any of the other See Also entries. This topic should be no different. -- StanZegel (talk) 13:24, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps I should explain why I consider the quote by MacCulloch so important to be in the summary.
Dear Humus, don't you think that the MacCullouch quotation gives the impression that Luther is directly responsible for the Kristallnacht and the Nazis? Why not the Johnson quotation or the Telushkin quotation? Quoting it in that succinct manner may give the reader the impression that Luther wanted such a manifestation like the Third Reich. His program in "Von den Jueden ..." was used by others over 400 years after it was written. Quoting from MacCulloch obscures the fact that others 400 years later used Luther's writings. It must be put in context, which is done in the ML and the Jews article. drboisclair 00:40, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
One other argument against the inclusion of the MacCulloch quotation is that it is irrelevant to Luther himself, which is the subject of the article. MacCulloch is giving his own POV as to the 20th Century use of Luther's treatise. It would be similar to putting a quotation in the article about Niccolò Machiavelli about the manner his work "The Prince" was used, for example, by Benito Mussolini. Luther's work "On the Jews ..." was used by the Nazis as their blueprint of the Krystallnacht. Luther did not conceive of a Krystallnacht. To accuse Luther of coming up with the "blueprint of the Krystallnacht" is a gross anachronism. Whether or not any of his writings were used by persons in the 20th Century is irrelevant to this article. It might be relevant to an article on Antisemitism, Nazism, or Medieval Antisemitism. It would be germane to the ML and the Jews article or an article on the treatise in question, but not this article. The quotation also intrudes another topic into the summary, which makes for further point counterpoint as Stanley Zegel has pointed out above. Besides, the summary by its nature should be of a general character. It would be redundant to place the quotation here and in the ML & t J article. For these reasons and for the reasons that CTSWyneken and Stanley Zegel have adduced I oppose inclusion of the MacCulloch quotation here. Please think about these valid reasons against inclusion. Let the debate be joined where it needs to be: in the Martin Luther and the Jews article. Respectfully submitted, drboisclair 05:17, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
I am sorry to find this discussion deteriorate. I find SZ's comments unacceptable ("wallow", "afraid", "spin", etc.) The absence of calls to civility is duly noted.
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Petrarch No mention of how his works are used in the present.
Erasmus Although there is mention of the RCC’s disappointment with him, there is nothing about his works being used by present day activists (Much about legacy)
Thomas More Point of interest: Marius considered him a fanatic. There is nothing that speaks of a writing of his used by a present day group. (Much about legacy)
William Tyndale There is much about his legacy, but nothing about a contemporary use of his works.
John Colet a little on his legacy, but nothing about his works being used by contemporaries to further their ends.
Martin Bucer Martin Bucer before 1543 had written a derogatory book ‘’On the Jews’’ in 1539, which had caused him to be regarded by the Jews as their chief antagonist among the Protestant Reformers up to 1542. Nothing in his article about this work or about its use in modern times.
Johann Eck He wrote a book against the Jews known as Refutation of a Jew-Book (Ains Juden-buechlins Verlegung), but there is nothing about his antijudaism let alone no mention of the use made of his works in the modern day.
John Calvin mention is made of a discussion of his doctrine of double predestination in a movie “Hardcore” but nothing about the use of his works in the modern day.
Huldrych Zwingli Nothing on any of his writings being used in the modern day
Nostradamus notable exception: the use of his works is noted in the article.
William Farel Nothing about his writings being used in the modern day.
William Shakespeare As you might guess, the information on him is so vast that other articles are referenced that discuss modern use of his work. Luther should be a parallel to Shakespeare in the manner in which his article is set up. We could use the Shakespeare article as a guide in setting up the main Luther article. Shakespeare's article is brief and loaded with internal links. drboisclair 20:00, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Collier's Encyclopedia, Academic American Encyclopedia, World Book Encyclpedia do not mention Luther's views of the Jews at all.
The Funk & Wagnalls New Encyclopedia Vol. 16, 261-264, includes the following words on Luther and the Jews: "he felt burdened by the resurgence of the papacy and by what he preceived as an attempt by the Jews to take advantage of the confusion among Christians and reopen the question of Jesus' messaihship. Apprehensive about his own responsibility for this situation, he wrote a violent polemic against the Jews, as well as polemics against the papacy and the radical wing of the reformers" -- CTSWyneken 04:25, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Encyclopedia Americana has the following on the subject: "Luther's later life was fraught with unending controversies with the Catholics and with the radicals in his own camp. He grew more harsh toward the Papists, the Jews, and the "fanatics." 17:859-862.
Encyclopedia Britannica, with the longest article, says the following: "Among his last writings, Against the Anabaptists, Against the Jews, Against the Papacy at Rome, Founded by the Devil, the most violent is the last, coarse and angry, but sitll defiant." Macropedia vol. 23:305-313.
The article United States has 30 subarticles, 29 of which have summaries, one of which does not. No quotations are made in these summaries.
The article History of England has 12 subarticles, 12 summaries, in which there is one quotation and one citation.
The article Judaism has 21 subarticles, depending on how you count it, all have some summary, in which there is one citation.
The article Christianity has 2 subarticles, 3 summaries and no quotations or citations in them.
The article Islam has eight subarticles, eight summaries, three quotes from the Quran in the Allah summary and three citations in the demographics summary.
The article Holocaust has ten subarticles, ten summaries and three quotes in two summaries. -- CTSWyneken 21:08, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Obituary [6]
Page number where Luther's views on the Jews are discussed: 233-243
Evidence given to support opinion:: None. The book is not documented beyond an extensive bibliography at the end of the work.
Counter arguments cited and addressed: fair representation of other side and reasoned replies to those positions.
Quote found at: 482
Evidence given to support opinion:: None. This book, unlike his first, is documented extensively, however.
Counter arguments cited and addressed: None to this particular point, although he does cite and fairly address other viewpoints in an earlier chapter.
Notes: Differs with MacCulloch on Luther's responsibility for the Holocaust. "Luther never organized any campaign against the Jews, and, as Heiko Oberman has said, despite the ferocity of his tirades against them he never renounced the notion of coexistence between Jews and Christians. But the fact that Luther's hostility to Jews was not the same as modern anti-Semitism does not excuse it." p. 380
UPI Religion Editor. [7]
Interview with Christianity Today [8]
Vitae [9]
In the Bibliography of Carter Lindberg, The European Reformations Blackwell, 1996, p. 430.
Cited as authority in Mark C. Mattes. Role of Justification in Contemporary Theology Eerdmans, 2004, p. 90, note 20.
Review in First Things [10]-- CTSWyneken 22:15, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Professor at Oxford [11] [12] [13]
National Review [14]
About.com Agnostism/Atheism group [15]
Page number where quotes are located: 666-667
Evidence given to support opinion:: None
Counter arguments cited and addressed: None
Folks, we were going to return to this discussion after a week. I realize it is only a couple of weeks till Christmas so if you are taking a vacation, I understand. Meanwhile I did a little homework. I must confess, the result (follows below) is even more upsetting than I expected. ← Humus sapiens ←ну? 12:54, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
I think a part of the problem is that books/encylopedias, etc. older than 1983 do not mention the problem. So far, I tried to rely on non-Jewish sources. ← Humus sapiens ←ну? 12:50, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
We need technical assistance to help the article as it appears. There is an enormous space that appears after the caption "Luther's early life". As you can see I have been trying different formatting changes without changing the text, but to no avail. There is still a large space that occurs after "Luther's early life" caption. Please help! drboisclair 23:58, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
I have made the first portrait, the coat of arms, and the picture of Luther's birthplace smaller, and that has seemed to help the "space" or lacuna problem after the first caption: "Luther's early life"; however, this may not be acceptable, so assistance on this would be appreciated. drboisclair 00:04, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
I guess that it is back to normal now. Maybe it was a glitch in my computer. drboisclair 00:34, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone mind if I execute the edits listed under the section labeled Streamlining... above? -- CTSWyneken 10:32, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
I have no objections. drboisclair 16:12, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
I saw that somebody listed Martin Luther under the category "Humanists." Was Martin Luther a Humanist? I don't think so. Comments? -- Jbull 22:38, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
Spitz, Lewis William, 1922- Luther and German humanism. Aldershot, Great Britain ; Brookfield, Vt., USA : Variorum, 1996.
Junghans, Helmar. Der junge Luther und die Humanisten. Göttingen : Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, 1985.
Tracy, James D."Humanism and the Reformation" in Reformation Europe : a guide to research St. Louis : Center for Reformation Research, c1982.
Grossmann, Maria. Humanism in Wittenberg, 1485-1517 Nieuwkoop : De Graaf, 1975.-- CTSWyneken 14:20, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
No one is allowed to censor Wikipedia. Do not remove "scatological quotes" from the article on the grounds that modern readers wouldn t understand the context. If these quotes prove that Luther was a vulgarian, so be it.
Wikipedia should not endorse or opposed any Point Of View, so we should balance these vulgarisms with scholarly analysys which denies that Luther was a vulgarian, if that's the problem.
And all the other lengthy policy quotes are not necessary. I've been here 4 years, I know the policies fairly well by now. Just follow them, and help each other make an accurate and neutral article, please. Uncle Ed 23:46, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Working as a team, censorship by CTSWyneken, Drboisclair, StanZegel continues with increasing boldness. What can be done to limit this conduct? Repeated misconduct has been documented. For example, here. [ [16]]. They even stalk me to ensure their censoring is complete. For example, here. Whitewashing when they entirely delete the example of historical whitewashing given by Dr. Robert Michael who is a 1997 recipient of the American Historical Association's James Harvey Robinson Prize for the "most outstanding contribution to the teaching and learning of history" [ [17]].
I have just added a new section to Judaism and Christianity on "love." It is just a stub of a section, hopefully others will add more about the Jewish notion. But I know that my characterization of the Christian notion is at best wildly incomplete. Perhaps among the contributors to this page there are some who could go over it and add whatever additional material, detail, nuance, explanation they think necessary. I am very concerned about not misrepresenting, or doing justice to, the Christian point of view. I also added a long quote from Maimonides to the section on Heaven and Hell; in fact, I did a rewrite a week or two ago. I know the Jewish position is well-represented but again I am concerned that in the process the Christian view may appear misrepresented or at least underrepresented. So, I'd be grateful if someone checked and made sure the Christian view(s) are accurately and sufficiently represented. Thanks, Slrubenstein | Talk 20:44, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for the invite, SL. I'll take a look if time permits. (something it doesn't often do in December!) --
CTSWyneken
11:35, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
"Luther began to teach that salvation is completely a gift of God's grace through Christ received by faith."
Last time I looked, the Catholic Church taught "that salvation is completely a gift of God's grace through Christ received by faith" too.
...?
I want to express my appreciation for the edits of the Luther and the Jews paragraph on the part of user:Humus_sapiens. It is very helpful. drboisclair 21:09, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
Luther was not a political revolutionary. I believe that including him in this subcategory is misleading and should be removed, and I have done it. Labeling Luther a "revolutionary" betrays a cursory knowledge of him and his writings. drboisclair 13:08, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
Fellow editors:
I've put all the current information on the copyright of Martin's Luther's On the Jews and Their Lies into the copyright topic page. For future reference, I'll put anything new I discover there and will answer questions about the status of this and other works at that location. -- CTSWyneken 16:02, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
What is the correct date of death, anyway ? There are apparently two options February 14 and February 18. Does anybody know which is the correct one ? Kpjas
Where it says the Lutheran Church has repudidated Luther's anti-Semitism, it needs to indicate which Lutheran church. There are several denominations in the U.S. alone that are Lutheran, and certainly there are large Lutheran churches in Europe.
Shortened the paragraph on antisemitism. If the entry as a whole is so short as it still is now it would give a very unbalanced view of Luther's life and teachings. The passage as well was to put into the context of the time.
I agree with you RK, except for one thing -- which Lutheran church are you talking about? There are dozens of major Lutheran church bodies around the world, and hundreds of minor ones... --
SJK
62.202.117.xxx, whoever you are, stop deleting useful and true information just because you don't like it. If you think it gives an unbalanced view of Luther, go find some positive things to add to balance it out -- but don't delete stuff that's already there. -- SJK
Why shouldn't we mention in detail Luther's antisemitism in both articles? Or if, we should only be mentioning it in one, surely Martin Luther is a better article to mention Luther's particular views, than elsewhere. And the "reference" you provide is very insufficent -- merely mentioning his "anti-semitism", without giving any background on the origins of his antisemitism, or giving the reader any idea of how antisemitic he really was. (Which is something I think is important -- antisemitism is at times an overused word, and if we are going to call someone an antisemite, we better be giving detailed examples of what they said which proves them to be as such.)
"As a non-historian you should be a bit more careful." Are you claiming to be a historian of Martin Luther? I'm putting the quote back in. -- SJK
Firstly, how does it come out unbalanced? Luther said that. You might not like the fact that he said it (I certaintly don't), but the fact is that he said what he said. If it gives people a bad impression of the man, well, maybe that's the impression he deserves to have.
Secondly, if you think it is unbalanced in such a short article, then add more info, not delete it!
Thirdly, we have unlimited space here -- so there is no problem with replicating info on multiple pages. More importantly, the two pages have a different focus. Christian anti-Semitism is about Christian anti-Semitism in general -- it is not a place for the detailed treatment of the antisemitism of one particular Christian, Martin Luther. Martin Luther is. Of course, we don't have a detailed treatment here at the moment -- but leaving that quote under Martin Luther would hopefully encourage people to write about his antisemitism in more detail...
So, once more I'm going to be putting the quote back it. -- SJK
"Although many believe that Luther nailed these theses to the door of a church in Wittenberg, this notion has recently been criticized."
Shouldnt this part have a better explanation? It´s just loose in the rest of the paragraph. It doesnt clarify anything. Can somebody fix it? I´ll do some research to try to fix it myself, though.
Also, I disagree about redirecting 95 Theses to this article. It deserves a new article - I´ll try to work on it.
Yves 14:20 26 May 2003 (UTC)
Deleted link to On the Jews and Their Lies: The website shows no signs of having asked for permission to post this document. As the editor for Project Wittenberg, I know both publishers of Luther's Works quite well. To date they have never granted permission to copy any of the translations in this set. If we wish to reference the volume and page number of a passage from the work, that would be an acceptable (and legal) alternative.
Rev. Bob Smith, Project Wittenberg Coordinator and Electronic Resources Librarian for Concordia Theological Seminary, a seminary of the Lutheran Church -- Missouri Synod, A.K.A., Bob of the Fort, A.K.A. CTSWyneken
1. Translations are considered under established copyright law to be works of original authorship. See U.S. Code, Title 17, Chapter 1, Sec. 101 , 1030[ [1]], [ [2]].
2. The site copies On the Jews and Their Lies completely. In copyright law, this counts as the "work as a whole" Title 17, 1, sec. 107 (3)[ [3]]
3. Fair use analysis of the work is as follows:
2. The nature of the work is historical and non-fiction, so this factor would likely weigh in favor of fair use.
3. The amount is the full work, which finds against fair use. Indeed, its social relevance would increase the finding against fair use in this factor.
4. The effect on market, as interpreted in the courts, is negative and likely to weigh against the use.
With the finding of three of four factors against fair use, the courts will likely find it infringing. In addition, it concerns us in that recent copyright cases have found sites linking to infringing net resources to be contributing to that infringment. While the USSC has yet to rule on such cases, it is established precedent on the appealate level.
Finally, if you were to buy a TV from a fence, should you say: "But I didn't steal it?" Bob of the Fort CTSWyneken
Let's accept for a moment that the translation of Luther's public domain texts are copyrighted (which I find morally, if not legally highly questionable) and concentrate on the fair use issue:
1) Educational use: I would like to see citations that educational use only means "employed in a regular course of instruction at an accredited institution of learning (Elementary, middle, high school, college or grad school)". Currently Wikipedia, a non-profit educational project, uses hundreds of images as fair use (see Wikipedia:Image use policy).
3/4) The text is clearly part of a much larger compilation of 55 volumes. True, the text alone is probably a "whole work" as per US law, nevertheless, certainly the fact that this is a negligible portion of the marketed product should have an effect on the interpretation, esp. of its commercial relevance. Would distributing a single Encarta article have a substantial effect on the market for Microsoft Encarta?
I find the matter of fair use debatable, and I encourage the site owner very much to go through with a court case. In the meantime, it is not our job to prematurely decide whether or not the use is infringing -- we can just sit back and relax. It seems paranoid to remove a link because someone, at some point, might interpret the linked content as infringing, in which case it is highly unlikely that linking sites would in any way be concerned.
Lastly, theft and copyright infringement have nothing to do with each other. Please do not use incorrect analogies.
The text of "On the Jews and their Lies" is of high relevance and importance for the understanding of Luther's person, and I find it despicable to engage in self-censorship even of relevant links in the name of the fiction of "intellectual property". Wikipedia should set an example for common sense, not for paranoia and fear. -- Eloquence 21:42 20 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Herr Eloquence: It would seem that you desire to have your views made known as a right, not to mention seeming to give the impression of having the only right view in a discussion that would appear to have some shades of gray at this point.
For one thing, there is a bit of difference between anti-Jewish sentiments (that need to be placed into the historical and cultural context of Herr Doktor Luther's time) and anti-Semitism (coined circa 1882) of more recent history. There have been things written to suggest that what Luther said had little bearing on what Hitler said and did 400 years later, but they appear nowhere in the Wikipedia. There is no mention of Luther's forgiveness to Jewish assassins who attempted to kill him either, which is in the literature should one look. That might suggest that he very well would not have been a supporter of Hitler if he were alive then. Hitler used Scripture out of context, as well as the writings of Luther and others, to support his maniacal actions. Once again, no mention is made of that. No mention is made of the remarkable integration of Jews in Germany for so many years prior to the time of Hitler. So much for balance and objectivity in observations, no, conclusions stated more like fact than subjective opinions that show little in the way of research except perhaps for "selective research" at no great depth. There is a lot of that going around - watch a TV show, read a biased media account, and become an expert on subjects ranging from theology to history … even military strategy.
A gentleman here on the list has been known to quote the late fiction writer Harlan Ellison, "We are not entitled to our opinions; we are entitled to our informed opinions. Without research, without background, without understanding, it's nothing. It's just bibble-babble..." That is one of the problems we face when we start opining on subjects we may only have a small knowledge of not to mention prejudices of various sorts that hinder objective observation and learning that may take not a few years. I make no pretence to be a world-class scholar in any subject area, but I think that I have been around long enough to see superficiality being passed off as being substantive.
So that I may not be accused of anti-Semitism myself, let me point out that I am originally from the "Lower East Side" of New York City and that my father knew Hebrew better than probably anyone presently on the list. I am very aware that the Western European Jew did not seem to have a high regard for the Eastern European Jew and both would look down their noses at say a Jew from the Sudan. As to Herr Eloquence, I lived in Germany too once upon a time as well as two of my relatives in a later period closer to the present. They saw more of the self-inflicted guilt of some people who were not old enough to know the "Beatles" let alone Hitler. By the way, recent statistics show that Germany is now the preferred place to immigrate to by Jews, religious or not, over and above Israel and the U.S. which was stated in the popular media the other day.
In any event, there was more than one Reformation (see, "The European Reformations" published a few years ago) that were concurrent, but by the age of the Enlightenment, and thereafter, the various denominations, particularly the confessional ones, had few in the pews so that by the time Hitler came along the churches were not very full including those of the Roman Church. Hitler helped create a "union church" where no particular doctrine was adhered to except for his form of socialism. Not much unlike the Post Modern Era today were everyone has a path to the truth, but then everyone has their own truth as there are no absolutes, at least according to some.
BTW, theft is to deprive the rightful owner of what belongs to them under law and the profit derived there from. Is it any wonder then that they have international copyright laws despite opinion to the contrary that would deprive someone, or some entity from earning a living?
In any event, the publishers, etc. that have the copyright on "Luther's Works [American Edition]" may not bother about it, but I suspect that the folks at Libronix Digital Library System that put it on CD-ROM for them may not appreciate the copyright infringement.
Lastly, there are various denominations (quite a few actually around the world) that use the word Lutheran (something Luther objected to himself) in their title, but not all that many that adhere to the Lutheran Confessions and Symbolics (see the "Book of Concord") in their totality. Many, if not most, are in no form of fellowship whatsoever. Dr. Hermann Sasse was, amongst other things, somewhat of a Luther scholar, and immigrated to Australia after WWII. One might want to read his works to get a better handle on confessional Lutheranism (see the Luther Seminary, N. Adelaide were he taught - they have a web site I am pretty sure) although some of the more recent translations of his writings were done in the U.S.(especially good is "The Lonely Way" in two volumes published not long ago by CPH Publishing, St. Louis, Missouri, USA). Questions regarding confessional Lutheranism may also be addressed to http://www.lcms.org and their two seminaries in the U.S. Should Herr Eloquence be interested in the church that now represents confessional Lutheranism in Germany, you might want to contact the Selbständige Evangelisch - Lutherische Kirche (SELK) at http://www.selk.de for questions regarding Luther and his so called anti-Semitism. If you are near Oberursal, the Lutherische Theologische Hochschule is located there or you can take a look at their web site at http://www.lthh-oberursel.de and start asking questions and perhaps achieve some balance. Otherwise you may start counting step by saying left, left, left, and left with no rights.
Lastly, I have found in my lifetime that what you get free is rarely free of some payment even if it is just loss of intellectual depth. "You get what you pay for" as someone once said (if I check for copyright, I will lose all of this). Let the encyclopedia reader beware ... and be discerning. Don't take my word for it, take the time to research, compare sources, and be careful of your presuppositions even if it may take a few years.
Best Regards ... despite the difference of opinion. P.E. 20 June, 2003.
P.E., the article does not even mention Hitler, so your rant is entirely off-topic. In fact the article states that "Luther initially preached tolerance towards the Jewish people, convinced that the reason they had never converted to Christianity was that they were discriminated against." What you want to do, however, is to remove actual writings of Luther because you think they shed a bad light on him. This is not acceptable, of course. As for the copyright, I have contacted the site owner, and here's what he has written back:
Works published before 1964 needed to have their copyrights renewed in their 28th year, or they'd enter into the public domain. Some books originally published outside of the US by non-Americans are exempt from this requirement, under GATT. Works from before 1964 were automatically renewed if ALL of these apply:
- At least one author was a citizen or resident of a foreign country (outside the US) that's a party to the applicable copyright agreements. (Almost all countries are parties to these agreements.)
- The work was still under copyright in at least one author's "home country" at the time the GATT copyright agreement went into effect for that country (January 1, 1996 for most countries).
- The work was first published abroad, and not published in the United States until at least 30 days after its first publication abroad.
If you can prove that one of the above does not apply, AND if you can prove that copyright was not renewed, then the work is in the public domain.
Research at the Library of Congress shows that only a handful of the volumes in the series "Luther's Works" had their copyright renewed. Volume 47, which contained "On the Jews and their Lies" is not one of them. There is no evidence "Luther's Works" was published first outside the United States. Thus [the] work is in the public domain.
If you can restore the link to the article, I would appreciate it. I think for a condemnation to have any credibility, it must be based on hard facts, without even a hint of distortion, omission, or falsification.
The site owner has also added a public domain notice to the article, so I have restored the link. -- Eloquence 11:50 21 Jun 2003 (UTC) ________________________________________________________________________________
Herr Eloquence, I must first say that I am frustrated, not with you, but with the fact I failed to save my response that was lost because for some reason it did not auto-save. Multiple interruptions did not aid the situation either. I very much regret the loss as I sincerely think that at least some of the content might have been of some degree of help to you.
In any event, I did not think that I was ranting as you suggest or even remotely bombastic. Further, you state, "the article does not even mention Hitler." That is quite true. However, since we know which "Holocaust" is mentioned in the article, how does one separate it from its progenitor namely Hitler? The Austrian fellow from a dysfunctional, non-Lutheran family. His bizarre biography is available from different sources online (caution - discernment in reading as some have been embellished or detracted from).
You next make the following accusation, "What you want to do, however, is to remove actual writings of Luther because you think they shed a bad light on him. This is not acceptable, of course." To disregard what Luther may have said in error would be wrong. However, where did I make any such request or anything remotely close to that? I don't think anyone has, but I will try to read more of the content above to determine if such was said at all. Your accusation of my wanting to remove something is baseless. However, I do not see you being fair on balance. The article is incomplete and biased. It mentions a synod, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA). There are some whom no longer call the ELCA Lutheran based on various actions taken by the leadership in recent years that they consider not in accord with the Lutheran Confessions and Symbolics as may be found in the "Book of Concord" (which not all synods using the term Lutheran adhere to completely, e.g. some of the Scandinavian synods). Nevertheless, that is another issue. What that synod said in 1994, right or wrong, does not encompass the view of all in its wording. I find it interesting that something that the article author had available to him is curiously absent, or perhaps he did not realize that he had the information giving him the benefit of the doubt. The following is a statement by the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod in 1983:
"Resolved, That, in that light, we personally and individually adopt Luther's final attitude toward the Jewish people, as evidenced in his last sermon: "We want to treat them with Christian love and to pray for them, so that they might become converted and would receive the Lord" (Weimar edition, Vol. 51, p. 195)." The full text may be found at, http://www.lcms.org/cic/luther.html . Now, that information might, if made available, place the article in better balance and not help promote discord. I would suggest reading and digesting each resolution found at the aforementioned web site.
"Luther's Works" comes in a few different editions, such as the Weimar Ausgabe (edition), which is in 65 volumes in German (1883) and the St. Louis edition of around the same period (1881) of some 24 volumes. As to the question of copyright of the "American Edition of Luther's Works (known as the AE)," I don't know how I got into that issue. However, you make claim that Volume 47 of the AE did not have its copyright renewed. Now, the AE was 54 volumes, but now has a 55th volume that is the index to the series. Does it not seem strange that a publisher would exclude volumes when applying for copyright? That is why I looked and guess what, the title page of Luther's Works, Vol. 47, The Christian in Society, IV contains the following: "Copyright© 1971 by Fortress Press. All rights reserved. No part of this publication may be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system, or transmitted in any form or by any means, electronic, mechanical, photocopying, recording, or otherwise with the prior permission of the copyright owner." Its Library of Congress Catalog Card Number is listed as 55-9893 and the ISBN is 0-8006-0347-8. Now, doesn't that evidence a valid copyright under U.S. copyright law? I think that the Rev. Bob Smith is also a knowledgeable person in that area having acquired a Master of Library Science quite a while ago. I know Bob, and he has always been up to date on such matters and is well acquainted with the Library of Congress, etc.
BTW, Luther's invectives against the Jews were largely ignored at the time and the sale of them poor. It is regrettable that he said some things, but one must also consider the times when they were written, the "Middle Ages, full of superstitions, etc. It is no excuse, but again I would look at Luther in his totality and not selectively to serve agendas.
That is all I have to say on the subject. Those who are wont to study further should do so and attempt to remain objective and discerning.
I almost forgot, the CD-ROM edition of recent vintage is copyrighted as well.
Best regards, PE 21 June 2003
_______________________________________________________________________________
In continuing the discussion,
"ON THE JEWS AND THEIR LIES by Martin Luther, in this year 1543 Translated by Martin H. Bertram"
"The following text is the English translation found in the hard cover edition of "Luther's Works," Volume 47, pages 137-306, published by Fortress Press/Philadelphia (1955). Trough a failure to renew the copyright in 1983, this fine translation has fallen into the public domain. May it cause thinking Christians to look closely at the nature of their relationship with God, and not as an incitement to evil."
The foregoing is the statement on the web site that is linked to, http://reactor-core.org/secret/on-the-jews-and-their-lies.html
The assertion by the Canadian (indicates B.C. as home) owner of page that the copyright was not renewed is in doubt as I have previously shown. Further, I can see that in the later printing which retained the copyright, 1971, that there are no changes that I can readily see. When I check the notes, they are the same notes as in the book or as on the CD-ROM all of which are copyrighted. The page owner also asserts at least one other book to be out of copyright and now in the public domain, but I have not researched that.
Looking at some of the links on "reactor-core.org," I myself would be hesitant to link to that page even if it had something of value. I find some of the pages that comprise the whole to be of questionable value. It is for others to determine for themselves if they are of the same opinion, but on moral and ethical grounds, I could not.
As to "Luther's Works (AE)," [LW] the question of "fair use" came up. It should be noted that while the set is called Luther's Works, each volume came out in different years and was added to the set at those times. Also, two different publishing houses, Fortress and CPH (Concordia Publishing House) published individual volumes that comprise the set and both have copyrights not to mention any holding by the CD-ROM version people in cooperation with the publishing houses. The volumes are on a large variety of subjects, but each volume is a book unto itself. The gentleman who owns "reactor-core.org" (please note the .org for organization and that organizations often have specific agendas) too, if I am correct, 170 pages of the book, specifically pages 137 to 306. That is more than half the book! I don't think that that constitutes "fair use."
Herr Eloquence, I did not think that you were the sole author of the article. As a matter of fact, one of the disturbing things was a name that I found associated with the effort when I first looked at it. I did not think it wise of the individual make comments that I did not think he was qualified to make. That was what initially upset me not to mention the fact of the questionable use of "Vol. 47" by the ".org" page owner. As a matter of fact, by excerpting as he did, he left out important segments to include comments that 'wish he (Luther) had not written what he did,' etc. Volume 47 is number 4 of 4 on the Christian in Society. In vol. 47 you also find polemics on what where believed to be heresies. The other volumes include many positive things if one were to read them, e.g. schooling for the young.
As to the "viewpoints of other congregations," I suspect you meant synods as congregations compose synods, supposedly of like mind in doctrine, or at least as some Lutheran church bodies understand the term. You will find that the word synod can have more than one meaning. As to church polity, I won't even get into that issue as polity varies from denomination to denomination.
There are those more qualified to edit than I. I just point out the biased stance that the article appears to take and the fact that copyright infringement may be in play. Best Regards, P.E. 20 June 2003 ___
From Bob at the Fort:
Not quite sure where to start in continuing this discussion, let me start with the copyright status of the work On the Jews and Their Lies.
First of all, the text of the work first appears in German in 1543, followed by a latin translation in 1544. The text in its original language appears in the authoritative Weimar Ausgabe, 53:414-552. The date of this edition is 1920. Since both predate 1923, the latest year when a previously published item can be safely assumed to be public domain, (see "When Works Pass Into the Public Domain," http://www.unc.edu/%7Eunclng/public-d.htm). So, the translator may create a derivative work without permission. (which is what a translation is according to Title 17 of the US Code, Chapter 1, sections 101 and 103. ( http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/101.html and http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/103.html) So, whether or not we like it, (and there is much about the law I don't like and have said so to my Senators and congressman) the fact is that legally a translation was copyrightable before 1978 and is copyrighted automatically since 1978. This translation is, to the best of my knowledge, the only one ever done of this text into English. If you'd like to do one and donate it to the public good, I'd be willing to post it. Now, the only remaining question is whether or not the work was renewed. The first edition of the work appeared in 1955. According to the evidence mentioned by PE, which I have verified, the work was either renewed or entered a second edition in 1971. It's difficult to tell which. Complicating matters is that a good number of copyright renewals are not recorded in the Library of Congress' online databases. Worse, they will not certify the results of any search that they do for you. To discover the status, I've contacted the publisher, who holds the rights to the set. I'll need to do some digging to provide references to the definition of an educational purpose and will add this info later. On the fair use criteria and how to apply them, check the information at: http://www.copyright.iupui.edu/ The author is an expert in copyright law, holding a teaching doctorate in law and a second doctorate in library science. He is a regular witness before congress on copyright issues. In the mean time, I'm content to let the link stand. CTSWyneken
Just to point out that there's a world of POV in "His call to the Church to return to the teachings of the Bible..." It implies that the Church once was BASED on the teachings of the Bible when the Church's belief is that it PREDATED the New Testament. Luther called for a return "Ad Fontes" but it was his point of view that that source was the Bible alone, rather than the Bible, tradition, and continued guidance by the Holy Spirit. I would think there could be a way of pointing this out that sounds less like the article is endorsing rather than attributing the POV. -- Someone else 02:28 27 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Well, yes, Moses, I justify my EDITS by saying they make the article better. You've now twice reverted to first-person drivel that seeks to explain what Luther said by asserting a point of view that is unattributed, reinstating the spelling errors with the blather. I won't get into an edit war, but the article has a very informal unencyclopedic tone in the version you seem determined to have. The reader doesn't need us to tell him why Luther was brusque. -- Someone else 02:35 27 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Yes, Someone else, the phrase does express a POV -- Luther's. Since this is about Luther, we need to talk about it. What I hope to have, when we're done, is two or three paragraphs about Luther and his significance at the top of the article, a TOC, and detailed commentary about facets of his life. We can, of course, explain later, perhaps under Luther and the Bible, how others viewed his call to return to the Scriptures.
On the other hand, if you can find language that retains a statement of Luther's POV, but does not make it sound like it's false (the opposite danger), go for it. Please note I left alone your change summarizing the influence on the counter reformation. It is much smoother than my original and makes the point well.
On the balance of the article, please be patient. Luther is quite important to me and I'll be at this as time permits over time. Much work needs to be done to material new and old to bring us to a NPOV and to fill out Luther's life. So far, we've not even mentioned his birth, boyhood, marriage, hymns and contributions to congregational singing, the main message of the reformation, etc. My bibliography is only a start, I've never seen any of the quotes that were on this page last week beyond "Here I stand..." and none of his most famous quotes are mentioned, etc. Much to do... CTSWyneken 11:41 27 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Was Martin Luther really a Dr.? I don't see any mention of him receiving a Doctorate. Harris7 12:14 27 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Yes, indeed, he did receive a doctorate (see http://www.lcms.org/cyclopedia for confirmation). I hope eventually to get to this detail, but haven't done the research to write about it. If you'd like to get us started (on this and other detail) be my guest. I'll add citations and refine it when I get to it.
65.238.146.2 23:35 29 Jun 2003 (UTC)
The recent work on the excommunication section is mine. I MUST remember to log in... Moses, would you be willing to add full citations to the work you've done in the Antisemitism section? I cannot locate exactly where any of the material is coming from, even the quote, to verify. Author, title, translator, publisher, place, date and page would help. Not saying you put it there, but the citation Table Talk is nearly useless, since there are literally dozens of editions, translations and versions of this collection. May I recommend adding the work to the bibliography and citing the way I'm doing with Brecht? CTSWyneken 02:29 2 Jul 2003 (UTC)
This page is developing into an extensive collection of apologetics, primarily regarding Luther's anti-Semitism. I have therefore added an NPOV disclaimer. -- Eloquence 20:29 30 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Eloquence... would you be so kind as to identify what you find to be "apologetic" on this talk page? I may be inclined to agree. Putting an NPOV warning, however, seems premature. You could have edited the text, raised issues on this page, etc.
The irony is that I found the page unfairly attacking Luther on this very point, showing signs that the authors have placed on the page whatever they'd like people to believe and did not care either to read about the issue or document their interpretation. Yet, in the spirit of NPOV, I've left such in place. Some of the language others have recently added to the article in this area may seem over the top in the other direction, but it is their attempt to bring some balance into what seemed to them to be an attempt to turn him into a 16th century Darth Vader. So, if you're serious about it, why not proposed a BALANCED paragraph? CTSWyneken 00:21 1 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Some stuff that I removed:
This is apologetic and very unencyclopedic (it reads like a poorly-written essay). Use of exclamation points, passive voice and poor examples.
This is off-topic (topic was Luther's views on killing Jews), apologetic and badly written. -- mav 01:27 1 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Mav, Agreed. To the other overnight editors... well done! CTSWyneken 12:28 1 Jul 2003 (UTC)
You can ask any Luther scholar; Luther is THE most prolific religious writer known. His writings alone form a good size library and take up copious shelf-space. This is a verifiable fact. I don't think it is fair to characterize this fact as "hero worship".
The rest of the paragraph following the statement of Luther prolificity needs to be reworked; the wording I changed made it sound like Luther was some sort of egotistical delusional, comparing himself to the Apostle Paul. Give this a day or two.
Now we come to the core of the matter, the following two paragraphs:
These paragraphs are not "hagiography" or "hero worship". They are important historical context. To convey the facts without their appropriate context is to confuse and mislead. Luther wrote a lot of things in a time and place that was very different from the 21st century. An encyclopedia that wishes to inform the reader needs to take the differing contexts into account.
Then we come to this snippet:
That snippet is very related to the topic of the paragraph. The person who added it was using a simile, an example, to make it clearer to the reader what Luthers intentions were. Read the sentence that came right after it:
The sentence I put back in was clearly clarifying and adding meaning to sentence above.
Finally, the sentence I took out:
I have as yet seen no evidence of Lutheran churches apologizing for Luther's antisemitism. What some Lutheran churches have said is described in the paragraph immediately following the sentence I removed, and could hardly be construed as apologies for anti-semitism.
Finding a public domain text of Table Talk, I looked through the section on the Jews. There was nothing like the above quote in there. Edit history shows that RK was the one who added the quote. RK, can you explain this please?
Dear Friends:
I do think it is possible to work through all of this to an acceptable NPOV article. First, as someone who likes Luther alot, let me weigh in and say that I don't think a lot of the explanation and apologia is necessary. There is a lot of context that can be set without all of it. As we expand this article, just describing his life and actions will help set the context. Please be prepared for quite a bit more text as time goes on. We haven't even begun to touch some of the aspects of Luther's life that shape our world today...
Mav, all I ask is that we operate on a factual basis. While I can see integrating such a quote in the text, and will not dispute placing it there, I'd prefer to keep the quotes in our quote section. I deliberately excluded the actual words of Luther at the Diet of Worms from the new narrative for this reason. I'll later add them to the quotes.
Please note, that, if you quote from the online version of On the Jews and Their Lies that the text is likely under copyright and posted without the permission of the publisher. I've contacted them and they assert that all volumes were renewed. They will, when time permits, document it for me. On the other hand, it is fair use to quote such a work with full attribution. The safest way to do this is from the physical book.
On Luther, the most prolific author... I think the line unnessary. In fact, I'm not sure about much of the text around it being necessary. Saying he was very prolific is easily verified. I have over 100 volumes of his words in the original languages on our shelves. The American Edition alone is 55 volumes.
We do not have to establish Luther's importance. We need only describe it. CTSWyneken 16:06 2 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I think the quotes section needs to go eventually and the quotes should be integrated into proper context. Quotes without context are useless and tend to get disorganized. They are also problematic from an NPOV perspective because the selection of quotes can convey certain emotions, and when not in context, these can become very dominant. There should be at least one quote representing each of the aspects of Luther's life and personality, and if we get too many quotes about a single aspect, these could be moved into a separate section (e.g. "More examples of Luther's use of profanity"). -- Eloquence 16:41 2 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I'd rather have no quotes at all than to put them all in the flow of the text. This lengthens the article quite a bit when done right. The problem with quoting an individual is NPOV. It is very easy to distort who a person is and what he was like, which is, after all, the point of a quote. A quotation section, or maybe a separate article on quotes, might help. On the new quotations: I have the same concern with these as the previous quotations. Where in On the Jews and Their Lies are they found? We need the reference to the physical edition and the pages numbers therein.
CTSWyneken 18:19 2 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Regarding the extensive quotes From "On the Jews and their Lies," I think much of it could go, thereby obviating the need for page numbers. Why not merely say that it is the best exemplar of Luther's anti-Semitism, which was shared by many at the time. Then place a link to the fordham website (the most available version of the document) at the bottom of the page.
I took out all that 21st century stuff. There isn't that kind of apologia on other pages on historical people. Also, IIRC, some of Luther's contemporaries also found him crude. Oh -- and put in "one of" the most prolific writers -- I think Augustine of Hippo is still at the top of that particular list.
Does anyone else think that this article is really disjointed? The headings break up the flow -- especially when there is only a sentence below the heading. Boots
Dear Eloquence:
Dear Boots: On the flow of the article, yes, it is very disjointed, incomplete, achronological, etc. let's fix it.
Yes, Augustine of Hippo is also a facile writer. We can add others to the list. I'm also an Augustine fan. But his works take up two to three shelves, while Luther's take up nine! 8-)
Seriously, one of the most prolific is very fine and quite accurate and sounds less like a cheering section. CTSWyneken 02:01 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Dear Cimon:
Could you document the information about Luther's friends editing many of his works? This really is the first I've heard of it and makes it sound as if Luther really isn't the author of his works. It certainly isn't accepted that this is so, so at least we need to qualify it, if not remove the phrase entirely. CTSWyneken 13:27 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Dear CTSWYNEKEN:
"All this" comes from a genuine wish to present Martin Luthers workss and history accurately.-- Cimon Avaro on a pogo-stick 21:28 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I've uploaded this portrait of Luther. Any objections to replacing the current image with this one? CTSWyneken 14:16 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Are you sure this is not copyrighted by the museum that owns it? Many famous pictures have been copyrighted in the past few years -- I think it started in NY with some Monets. And I disagree about the quotes. Enough to say that Luther was an anti-Semite (but not particularly out of line for Christians of his day) and that the best representation is the work cited. This avoids problems of page numbers, searching, etc. If this were an article on Luther's A/S, it would be appropriate to quote, but it isn't, so it's not. Boots 14:42 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Yes. First of all, the painting itself is in the public domain, created nearly 500 years ago. Second, ownership of the object does not in itself mean that the entity holds the intellectual rights even if, say, it were an Andy Warhol. Warhol's heirs, or those to whom the rights were sold, have those rights. Third, in the court case Bridgeman v. Corel, the court found that photography of a painting, such as this, is not sufficently creative to warrant a new copyright. Unless there's a fundemental change in the image (putting Bill Clinton in front of a portrait of Henry VIII, for example, or changing its color, images of public domain paintings are themselves in the public domain.
On the quotations, I can go either way, as long as the quote is accurate or the summary is fair to Luther and to his critics. If we quote, we should cite. This really is not a burden, it's just good scholarship. we should probably cite anyway, since the topic is controversial. CTSWyneken 16:00 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)
No need for the "condone" wording Eloquence since I am a very strong proponent of putting a great many things under free licenses (otherwise I wouldn't be here). However, I do not believe in forcing this on anybody (esp if it means their work is automatically put into the public domain without their consent). And copyright is very important to protect the work of authors in order to keep bread on their tables or, in our case, to make sure the body of knowledge we create is always added to and not wrapped up into a black box (either way it is the choice and freedom of the authors that is paramount). But I can see an analogy with creating a photographic reproduction of a painting and creating an OCR copy of public domain text. I would consider the OCR text to be in the public domain even though it did take some work by a person to create the copy (turning each page and hitting the scan button). So to be consistent I'll withdraw my round of devil's advocate and re-upload some images that JHK removed. -- mav
Here's how it works under US Copyright case law:
If you'd like, I'll produce the case citation, and, if I can find the URL, a link to the opinion.
As to the photo, yes, my master scan is very high resolution. I reduced it for upload, size in kb and physical dimensions. What specs to you recommend?
CTSWyneken 22:55 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Once again, edited before logging in. I'm responsible for the new paragraph, which still needs some work... CTSWyneken 13:49 5 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Hearing (or seeing) no objections, I've eliminated the quote section and relocated verified quotes. If anyone would like to add other verfied quotes, please do, in the body of the article and fully quote them. If their source is on the 'net, all the better. Please provide the URL after the quote. CTSWyneken 21:28 5 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Newbie, oops, edited before logging in. I clarified the date of Martins birthday and Baptismal birthday which are one day apart. jrshaw 19:09 6 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Thanks, for the correction, JR... I knew they were close together, but did not have the date of baptism handy at home. On not logging in... I know how you feel... CTSWyneken 20:22 6 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Uploaded a printable version of luther46.jpg. Is luther46c.jpg CTSWyneken 21:56 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Just added a narrative of Luther's personal experiences and what he came to believe. This is the toughest to do from the NPOV standpoint. I think I've gotten the balance right, but am open to adjustments. I think the best counter balance here would be to describe what those who found these teachings dangerous had to say as they discovered with alarm what the Doctor stood for. If someone would like to take a shot at this, go for it. CTSWyneken 01:08 9 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Edited the bit about Luther's marriage "reviving the tradition of clerical marriage." Luther may have claimed this but, by and large, the Western Church discouraged the practice from a very early date and, IIRC, Gregory VII banned it. Or it was part of the decisions of the Schism of 1054. I think it is very important that this article be less hero-worship-y. Luther's theology is one thing -- it should not only be explained (but really more under Lutheranism), but how it was different from what went before. But this is a historical biography, and it needs to reflect the fact that, at the time, the majority of people who kept up with these things remained Catholic. Also, it is important to note that many people followed Luther not because they were anti-Catholic, but anti-Habsburg and anti-Roman influence. Even Henry VIII, who split from Rome, rejected Luther's teachings as heretical. Boots
:: Point taken, but let's not go the other direction. CTSWyneken 22:28 9 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Proposal of where I'd like the article to go...
I think that the article needs a lot more work, especially since in really does not do justice to the life of Luther. What I'd like to do is have the article start with three-four paragraphs summarizing why this guy is important. We I think we're almost there with para. 1 & 2 as it now stands. What we need is a new paragraph that starts something like: Martin Luther remains a controversial figure. Roman Catholics ... etc. This should not be very long, and should hit the main points. Later, they can be elaborated upon.
I'd like to follow with a table of contents (is this feature ready yet, Eloquence?) and then a more or less orderly series of sections on the variety of things that Luther said, taught, did, reacted to, etc. I like Boots' idea of describing how that differs from what went before and also think we should have paragraphs like Luther's marriage shocked and outraged his opponents...
The trick is to keep all this in balance and perhaps move some material into secondary articles like Luther's translation of the Bible, 95 Theses to keep blow by blow detail that is fascinating from overburdening an article likely to be quite long to start with.
What think ye? CTSWyneken 22:28 9 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Dear Someone Else:
I think testify is a fairly accurate characterisation. The letters between the principle figures before and after Worms studiously avoid an outright demand for Luther to recant. The actual imperial summons calls for Luther to come to the Diet to answer questions about his writinge. It could mean a variety of things from a debate to an outright demand to repent. You must remember that Worms is a political assembly of all the governments of Germany. The young Emperor Charles needs all of them badly, since he is facing a serious military struggle against Suleman the Great and the Ottaman armies, which in this era even laid seige to Vienna. Luther's prince and, by this time, many others, thought him anything from a hero to a useful instrument to check Papal power. Charles was determined to resolve the Luther matter, but could not afford to alienate any of the states he depended on for funds and forces. Even before the Diet, a demand is not made that Luther recant. The question was: do you stand by what you taught in these books or do you reject them. Even after Luther's appearance, a commission from the imperial states is sent to discuss with him. So, while the emperor and his supporters would have preferred a straight-forward demand, this was not the actual case, although no one, then or now, doubts what was at stake. CTSWyneken 14:58 10 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Dear Someone Else:
...Even before the Diet, a demand is not made that Luther recant. The question was: do you stand by what you taught in these books or do you reject them..... CTSWyneken 14:58 10 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Someone Else -- IIRC, he wrote down the speech later. Recant implies that the meeting was in some way a formal heresy trial -- it wasn't, at least not in the sense of those of reformers like Hus. But it's an imperial Diet -- not an ecclesiastical one. The fact that Luther wrote down his speech as a refusal to recant doesn't mean that he was asked to do so -- Luther was very belligerent, after all, and the record as mentioned above is perhaps less biased. Boots
as it's suppositional, conversational, and non-encyclopedic in tone. (And needs to spell "contemporaneously" better). But as I've removed it before and it's been restored, I won't persist. If you feel it improves the article, I won't play with it. -- Someone else 23:25 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)Because Melanchthon was close to the reformer, he may well be reporting the story as Luther told it. However, we have no way of knowing for sure these words were ever spoken. Of course it is quite plausible that he may have said them to himself, rather than out loud. This might present a natural explanation why such eminently quotable words were not recorded contemporaneusly.
Boots:
re: Peasant's war: nicely done! Some minor tweaking may help (Luther tried to mediate between the Lords and Peasants first, with uncharacteristically mild language, but, in his view, got for his efforts a peasantry that twisted his words, thus his Against the Murdering, Raping Hordes of Peasants Otherwise, very good work.
re: the excommunication, I think this event needs its own section. The intro does help the section on the Diet, as the article now stands. CTSWyneken 22:13 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Hi,
I'm curious about what documented basis there may be for the lightning-strike ("Help, St. Anne..") legend? I see it is described as a legend at
http://www.luther.de/en/legenden.html
I've read that a more likely explanation was that Luther became a monk to escape (and offend) his abusive parents, and that the lightning legend was created later.
Harris7 20:44, 31 Jul 2003 (UTC)
From the article: "Luther's work contains a number of statements that modern readers would consider rather crude."
Then just below are some nasty racists remarks, attributed to him unless I misread the article, which appear to advocate burning down the houses and driving the Jews into poverty and exile, and advocate that robbers should be allowed to set upon them on the highways.
Are these what is meant by "crude"? If so, "crude" seems a bit euphemistic, for what I might term "racist almost to being genocidal".
The "Martin Luther and Judaism" section seems to be exceptionally NPOV and well written to me at present, and I don't see a current need for it to be either added to or taken away from. On the other hand, Wiki is not paper, and I would generally like to see a massive amount more content added to every article, and for the number of articles to multiply exponentially as well ;) Sam Spade 07:28, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I speak from ignorance, but I thought that Luther held some sort of governing position. Actually, I thought I'd read that he was some sort of religious despot, or dictatorial church tyrant--but I'm not sure if that is anti-Lutheran sentiment that I've seen disguised as history. In fact, this is why I read the article, but I saw no mention of any such.
His marriage, on June 13, 1525, to Katharina von Bora, a former nun, began the tradition of clerical marriage within several Christian traditions. More accurately "revived a long-abandoned tradition" Would anyone object to that? It's not a minor point after all Wetman 04:00, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)
The phrase ... added several principles to the art of translation sets up the reader but doesn't enlarge on this statement. I'd be interested. Wetman 18:01, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)
If anyone is interested, the Schaaf-Herzog article on Luther is online at: [4] It is public domain, so if someone wants to cut-and-paste, we can really expand our article rapidly and accurately. It's considered a rare, more or less POV, article written in the 19th Century. -- CTSWyneken 21:09, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I have been studying Martin Luther most of my life, and I want to compliment you all on a fine page. The fact that I see little need for me to make changes or additions is striking in and of itself, and the joy I have been taking in re-reading it is a special compliment from me to each of you. Keep up the good work! Sam Spade 07:31, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)
The book "Young Man Luther" by Erik H. Erikson (W. W. Norton & co., 1962) may be worthy to be referred among books on Luther. Its author was professor of psychoanalysis and human development and he wrote an analysis of Luther's struggles from the psychoanalytical (post-Freudian) point of view. However, he is by any means bashing Luther as crazy and the book gives a huge insight into Luther's struggle before and after his conversion. User:Matej
I recently added a bunch of rather controversial edits. I thought many of these were interesting points to make, but I understand that some of them might be disputed or considered POV. If anyone sees a problem, reply to this post (or edit a dissenting opinion into the article, perhaps). Brutannica 06:55, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Many scholars dispute the fact that Luther made his theological discoveries in the privy. For copyright reasons, I cannot quote the sources in Wikipedia, but if anyone is interested, they could look at the most thorough biography of Luther, the one by Martin Brecht: Martin Luther Vol. 1, p. 122, 227. For this reason, I'm deleting the comment. CTSWyneken 16 November 2004
I've begun adding text from the 19th century Schaaf-Herzog Encyclopedia. It solid, but a bit old. Feel free to edit it. I just want to get more of the story told quickly. -- CTSWyneken 20:30, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
If anyone can find the text of either the Obelisci, the Asterisci, or the proceedings of Luther's and Karlstadt's debates with Eck, it would be a fine contribution to the article.
-- jrcagle 23:47, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
when was the last time these articles were updated?
Is there any dispute that Martin Luther was labelled a heretic at some point in time? If not, then his inclusion in the category "Heretic" only serves to report this. It does not define him as a heretic. - Tεx τ urε 19:56, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I thought Martin Luther was a jurist to start with. Then he used his text-analyzing skills to analyze the bible, finding lots of strange things in his contemporary church, and first much later becoming a priest/monk.
I find this incoherent with the article (not that I've read it or anything ;). Am I wrong?
why is there absolutely nothing in this article that reflects Luther's views of women? where are the quotes like "If [women] become tired or even die, that does not matter. Let them die in childbirth - that is why they are there."
Is there a specific statement Luther made encouraging the suppression of witchcraft that we could add? If not, the section seems a bit vauge. Luther surely did oppose witchcraft, but I'm not so he did so in an hisorically significant way. If the section can't be made more specific perhaps just remove it?
Agreed. Sam Spade 09:02, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
An inline comment in the article questions the date of Luther's first publication of his complete Bible translation into German. This is indeed listed as 1534 according to The Bible Through the Ages, Reader's Digest Assoc., 1996, ISBN 0895778726, an outstanding text regrettably now out of print. -- Blainster 23:06, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
The latest editing change for the first section of this article is an improvement: "His call to the Church to return to the teachings of the Bible spawned new traditions within Christianity and his teachings affected the Counter-Reformation in the Roman Catholic Church." However, I would submit, "His call to the Church to return to the teachings of the Bible spawned new traditions within Christianity, which, in turn, promted the Counter Reformation as the Roman Catholic reaction" would be a more accurate statement here. drboisclair 19:34, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
Yes. Good. Done. Bbpen 20:08, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
I think this article is very Pro-Luther in some parts.
There is an advantage in it being pro-Luther because readers are invited to look at the subject "from the inside." I do agree that objectivity is to be a goal; however, there has been so much negative press on Luther in recent years. drboisclair 20:10, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
An editor removed "Roman" from before "Catholic" in Luther's Legacy section of this article. This would imply that Protestants in general and Lutherans in particular were not catholic. Protestants are not eo ipso (simply by being "Protestant") non-catholic. I made what I felt were necessary emendations. drboisclair 16:14, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
If the term "Catholic Church" is used instead of "Roman Catholic Church" it is still both ambiguous and anachronistic in that those Christian churches, which remain and have remained under obedience to the pope, have been historically known or referred to as the "Roman Catholic Church" or the "Catholic Church." The Eastern Orthodox Church as well as the Evangelical Lutheran Church and some other Protestant denominations consider themselves no less "catholic" than the "Roman Catholic Church." drboisclair 18:19, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Friends:
I dropped by and noticed massive changes in the text of this article. I'm not sure why, since, ironically, it was in areas we had edited together quite a bit and not in the ones that needed a lot of work (and still do) May I request a moritorium on these changes until we can absorb what's here now and see if they are truly improvements?
-- CTSWyneken 02:08, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
Changes that I made to this article were corrections of grammar and factual information. For example, "The Castle Church" is not the "town church" of Wittenberg. There were two churches in Wittenberg: All Saints and St. Mary's: the Castle Church and the City Church. There were links that implied that Martin Luther was a "Reformed Theologian," which is an error. Another problem was the one I listed above that by an editor removing "Roman" from before "Catholic Church." drboisclair 14:23, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
In the first paragraph, we used to use the word "tradition" to describe "Lutheran and Protestant." This is the term used currently in scholarly circles for sets of denominations, organizations, etc. that share basic theological and cultural features that distinguish them from other traditions within the same religion. "Lutheran," "Anglican," "Reformed," "Pentecostal" are such traditions within Christianity. Denomination is used in scholarly circles for a specific organization, with rosters, rules, buildings and budgets. So, Christianity = Religion, Lutheran = Tradition, Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod = denomination, and, while we're at it, St. Peter Lutheran Church of Fort Wayne, Indiana = a congregation. If no one objects, I'll revert the term.
-- CTSWyneken 10:16, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
It might be clearer to add "ecclesial" before "tradition(s)" for more accuracy; however, the first paragraph has been well improved. drboisclair 18:31, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
The next change I will make, unless someone objects, is to add "and culture" after doctrines in the first paragraph. -- CTSWyneken 09:49, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
A correction that removed Doctor in Biblia from the Martin Luther article here alleged that it was an historical error. On the contrary, according to at least two professors from a prestigious Lutheran seminary, the specific title of Luther's doctorate was Doctor in Biblia. Luther's own testimony confirms this: "I was forced and driven into this position in the first place, when I had to become Doctor of Holy Scripture against my will" [Luther's Works, vol. 13, St. Louis: CPH, p. 66; emphasis added]. Footnote 41 on this page reads: "As a doctor of the Sacred Scriptures he had the responsibility to teach and defend Biblical doctrine; and he maintained that this was just what he was doing" (Emphasis added). We read this in the "Introduction to Volume 10" of Luther's Works (10:1-2; emphasis added): "Johann von Staupitz had persuaded Luther to pursue advanced studies to qualify for the degree of Doctor in Biblia and had moved Frederick the Wise to provide funds for promoting Luther’s doctorate on the promise that Luther would be a great asset to the University of Wittenberg as lecturer on the Bible." His position at the University of Wittenberg was: Lectura in Biblia (cf. Heiko A. Oberman, Luther: Man between God and the Devil, New Haven: Yale, p. 143). QED drboisclair 00:30, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
The Doctor in Biblia degree is a doctorate in theology. Since the entire university system is a child of the Christian Church, it is often pointed out in academia that the doctorate in theology is the grandfather of all doctorates. It is not an "either, or" situation but a "both, and." I believe that leaving the data in this article gives the readers the benefit of further information on Martin Luther, whom I as a theological scholar admire and continue to study with great interest. drboisclair 06:41, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
-- CTSWyneken 20:50, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
Thank you for looking in to this. Perhaps it is a technicality that means something to people attending seminaries and graduate schools. If you judge it to be best for the article, it might be best to go back to the general "Doctor of Theology": the German sources online have it as Th.D., but theological doctorate or doctor of theology is what the degree is called in Brecht, Schwiebert, and even Oberman. I agree about the Latin and German. As you can see in the Martin Chemnitz article, I have translated all the non-English words. -- drboisclair 00:29, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
Rev. Smith, as you see from the title page of this online source, these articles may be "edited by anyone." The "prestigious" Lutheran institution is Concordia Seminary, St. Louis, and the professors in question are the Rev. Dr. H. Richard Klann, Ph.D. and the Rev. Dr. Norman E. Nagel, Ph.D., whom I have had the pleasure of studying under. Perhaps, you'd like to check their credentials. Of all the professors that I have studied under I do not know any that knows Luther better in the LCMS. Excepting, of course, the sainted Rev. Dr. Heino Kadai, who used to teach at your institution, Concordia Theological Seminary, Ft. Wayne. As I said, I have taken numerous graduate courses on Luther. I know that you have an M.S. in L.S. and an M.Div. from the St. Louis Seminary, and you are blessed to be the librarian of a prestigious Lutheran institution and on the faculty--the librarian is on the faculty I take it. I respect your credentials, and I am disappointed that you see fit to delete data, which are historically accurate. You need to point out in this article that Luther was a biblical exegete. By just saying that he was a "doctor of theology" does not give the reader all the information. Why didn't you edit some of the inaccuracies in the paragraph on the 1520 treatises, e.g.? All of us have a right to edit this article. In my case I will not put anything into it that cannot be supported. Have you checked out the LW 10:1-2? Isn't it better if we add information that is original from our own study as experts in our field? Philip Schaff was a celebrated church historian; perhaps his citations from the History of the Christian Church should be referenced, so that we can be more respectful of his words. In short I would request the same respect for my input as a fellow Lutheran scholar. Cordially and fraternally, Rev. David R. Boisclair, M.Div., S.T.M., St. Louis, Missouri. drboisclair 04:17, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
Dear Pastor Boisclair:
Thank you for providing this data. I knew Klann quite well. He was a professor of mine. I know Dr. Nagel even better, having studied under him at two institutions. I was at at Dr. Kadai's funeral as well. Knowing that gives weight to the argument you're making. My point for asking is, on the internet, anyone can say anything. If a person is not identified, it is impossible to tell whether or not their opinions carry any weight at all. Prior to your comments today, I had no way of knowing if you were an eminent Luther scholar, or someone with a high school degree who was playing with the text (if you've seen some of the vandalism we've corrected recently, you'll see what I mean) Because I have a lot of work in this and a half-dozen articles, I watch what I've gotten to very closely. Any time a change is made in those sections, I notice it in the history and see what has been done. If I can live with it, I leave it alone.
I deleted this datum from the article because the work I consulted did not have that title at all. Please note I have not re-deleted the data, since I now have some reason to believe it to be accurate. I will follow up to see if I can verify it. If I can, I'll be content to leave it, but will likely suggest translating it to an English form. One of the continuing problems with this and other articles is using vocubulary unfamiliar to casual readers. Avoiding unneeded latin is one thing I believe we should do. My point is to be sure we are as accurate in the details we choose as we can be.
I'm not saying you have no right to edit the article. In fact, I'd welcome the help. The reason why I went for this detail is it is in a section that I and others have worked over for years. I simply have not had the time to do this with the whole article. When we started, this was very bad indeed. In fact, it should be very clear in reading the article before you began editing, where we had left off, where Schaaf was quoted verbatum and where no work had been done at all.
What I'm asking for is for you not to wade in and make dozens of changes at once, without at least warning us here of your intent a day or so in advance, so that I do not have to check each one of them, which is very time consuming in a tight schedule here. -- CTSWyneken 11:16, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
At this time, with all the editing that has recently been done, it will be quite a chore to add citations to Schaaf back in. My point in bringing it up was to show that we have not just made up a lot of this material. We've often copied it verbatum from sources in the public domain.-- CTSWyneken 11:16, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
I'm content to leave things as they are at the moment and work together on this article. Schaaf is online and linked at the bottom of the article, so we can go out there to harvest material. It is perfectly fine to adjust it. Now that I'm sure who you are and know that you'll discuss here any major revisions, I'll assume the changes made without checking to be limited to minor ones. I'd suggest the best way to proceed would be to have Stan archive the current talk page (I never got the hang of how to do this) and have us begin by each reading the article as it is now. Let's then see where improvement can be made and see if a general plan can emerge. (like where to shuffle explanitory text off to little side pages) If I remember correctly, not much has been done by trustworthy authors on the later parts of Luther's life. I'd be very happy to have Pastor Boisclair author new text for these and have us discuss and adjust the text. We would also want to invite others out there lurking to join our happy throng.
-- CTSWyneken 21:03, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
In the spirit of the wikipedia, I do not mind editing of the articles here. After all, that's the point of this experiment. I do find it offensive, however, to find the work that I and others have done on this article over years, some with a lot of debate, completely revised without so much as a warning, much less a discussion. Most of the changes you've made do not change the substance of what we've done. So why change them? Just because you do not like the way they sound? Then ask. Most of us do not mind some adjustment. I take this particular article quite personally because I am tired of Luther being abused unfairly. When there are changes, I check each one to be sure that the changes have merit. When you change enough to generate a whole history page of just your edits, you cost me much time and effort.
So, please! Before you change text in volume, some of it the words of historians like Philipp Schaaf of the 19th Century, please discuss it with us. You may be suprised (I, for one, would like to see much of the latter parts of the article fully redone.
Rev. Robert E. Smith Concordia Theological Seminary Fort Wayne, Indiana -- CTSWyneken 21:57, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
-- CTSWyneken 12:11, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
When I edited the Theory of Grace paragraph I was restoring what I thought was removed by a vandal, who had left the final five or six words. I felt that this paragraph should be restored. I am glad it was. drboisclair 06:29, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
-- CTSWyneken 11:55, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
-- drboisclair 16:27, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
I'm operating from Dr. Nagel's understanding that no "tower experience" in the sense that folk in the romantic era saw it ever happened. He believed that Luther came to study one concept at a time and had flashes of insight that gave him joy and excitement. The first was over the word "penance," the most famous over the word "righteousness." Other words are spoken of in a similar fashion. What seems clear to me, however, is that Luther's theology was not as we have come to know it until the three 1520 treastises. The title of the section, for me, sounds a bit like "Luther believed this, but it wasn't true." I know that's not what the words actually say and finding a neutral title other than it is a tricky proposition. So, unless we have a "shower experience" and discover something better, I am content to leave well enough alone.
-- CTSWyneken 21:42, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
I have moved to here the emphasized passage
because after my addition of linkage to it was reverted without explanation, I went searching for more information on this mysterious "Crotur" so that he could be properly identified and linked. The only references I easily found to him were clones of this very article on other web sites, so I have moved him here until we determine if he is the product of a hoax promulgated via Wikipedia, or was an actual person with a forename and dates. If we don't know enough about him (if he actually existed) to make at least a stub article on him, then we shouldn't mention him at all, and that may suggest a different path of affinity to Ulrich von Hutten. Perhaps scholar CTSWyneken might check this out at the seminary library. -- StanZegel 23:43, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
If you notice in this article, there is an enormous space that shows up at the beginning of this article because the beginning picture and the coat of arms are placed as they are. Perhaps the coat of arms might be put on the left and the picture box on the right or vice versa to make the beginning of this article look better. drboisclair 05:01, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
Thank you, Stan for the archiving!
To one and all interested:
Several of us propose to do a full revision of the article. This is an open invitation to one and all to join in the discussion of its strength and weaknesses. Come one and all!
-- CTSWyneken 01:23, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
I'd like to see us streamline the article, taking as much of the detail in it, especially the tangents, into other articles like 95 Theses, Diet of Worms, etc. The result will be easier to read, yet will fully tell the story. For example, the detail on the Diet of Worms would work nicely elsewhere, including the debate over "here I stand..." -- CTSWyneken 09:59, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
There is a move among the administration of Wikipedia to remove the biographical infoboxes comprehensively. I urge all to weigh in pro or con. The one in this article looks good and should be retained. This requires the timely attention of all, please. -- drboisclair 21:30, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
In order to avoid the "Biography Infobox" controversy, why not make the Cranach painting of Luther into an image box like the Luther seal: one could then add the caption information. I think that the Cranach painting should be retained -- drboisclair 19:55, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
I thought the detail deleted today had been helpful: the date Luther's interview began, and a fleshing out of the context and major points of his most famous statement. -- StanZegel (talk) 13:47, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
-- CTSWyneken 17:13, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
When a moment presents itself, I'd like to thin out this section a bit. On the other side, a sentence on the Invocavit sermons is needed.
I'd like to list here the things the article is missing at this point. Please add whatever you'd like. Feel free to write new text on these...
I like the additions here very much. -- CTSWyneken 11:56, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
Either there should be substantial discussion of his writing here or it should be merged in with the more historical section. I may try to do the latter unless anyone objects or wants to do it himself. As it is the secton is out of place, in addition to not being of the highest quality.
CSMR 04:36, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
My apologies for the numerous edits in converting the infobox biography to an ordinary image with caption. I hope this is satisfactory. If not we could revert back to the infobox. drboisclair 10:34, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
-- CTSWyneken 12:54, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
The price of a good article means that one has to have eternal vigilance against vandalism of any kind whether humorous, devilish, or angelical. Of course, you cannot let it bother you. You might find yourselves laughing as teachers do when they find that students have written silly things in the manuals on their desks! drboisclair 13:32, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
With the addition of Bartholomäus Bernhardi of Feldkirchen and Gabriel Zwilling as new articles I have removed all the red internal links to the Martin Luther article. drboisclair 03:27, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
An anonymous editor added this to the section on the "Indulgence controversy": "[Note: According to Traditions & Encounters 3rd ed. Vol.2 Bentley/Ziegler, The nailing of the theses did not actually occur. This is merely a popular legend.]" I cut it and pasted it here. There is dispute on this point. Cf. Brecht, Martin Luther: His Road to Reformation 1483-1521 (vol. 1), p. 200. I have read and heard that the nailing to the castle church door was a legend; however, the theses were "posted" to Archbishop Albert of Mainz. You may wish to delete this anonymous reference along with my qualification. I believe that Philipp Melanchthon's biography of Luther states that it was nailed to the Castle Church door.
I thought it best to cut this anonymous reference and place it here. drboisclair 02:39, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
A full discussion of the issue is in the
95 Theses article. Brecht concludes, as I do, that both likely occured. He goes with sometime on or after Oct. 31. I see no reason why Oct. 31 as the date of the posting. It best explains how the work circulated so quickly. There's no evidence of the document going in the mail to a source that would leak it -- in German no less. In any case, the discussion is too much of a tangent here. As the keynote of a symposia on the subject said, "Whether they were nailed or mailed, they certainly were posted!"
-- CTSWyneken 16:09, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
I have composed this section in line with the categories listed above as needed in the article. I think that we might add something about the extended family members who lived with the Luthers as well as the college students, but this is a beginning if it is acceptable. This could lead into a section on the Table Talk drboisclair 22:31, 11 October 2005 (UTC):
(caption) Martin Luther's marriage and family (caption)
April 8, 1523 Luther wrote Wenceslaus Link: "Yesterday I received nine nuns from their captivity in the Nimbschen convent." Luther had arranged for Torgau burgher Leonhard Koppe on April 4 to assist twelve nuns to escape from Marien-thron Cistercian monastery in Nimbschen near Grimma in Ducal Saxony. He transported them out of the convent in herring barrels. Three of the nuns went to be with their relatives, leaving the nine that were brought to Wittenberg. One of them was Katharina von Bora. All of them but she were happily provided for. In May and June 1523 it was thought that she would be married to a Wittenberg University student, Jerome Paumgartner, but his family most likely prevented it. Dr. Caspar Glatz was the next prospective husband put forward, but Katharina had "neither desire nor love" for him. She made it known that she wanted to marry either Luther himself or Nicolaus von Amsdorf (Nicholas v.A.). Luther did not feel that he was a fit husband considering his being excommunicated by the pope and outlawed by the emperor. In May or early June 1525 it became known in Luther's circle that he intended to marry Katharina. Forstalling any objections from friends against Katharina, Luther acted quickly: on the evening of Tuesday, June 13, 1525 Luther was legally married to Katharina, whom he would affectionately call "Katy." Katy moved into her husband's home, the former Augustinian monastery in Wittenberg. Their first child, a boy, Hans was born June 7, 1526. He was followed by Elizabeth, December 10, 1527, who prematurely died in August 1528; Magdalena, May 5, 1529; Martin, Jr., November 9, 1531; Paul, January 28, 1533; and Margaretha, December 17, 1534—three boys and three girls. Another of Luther and Katy's daughters would not reach adulthood: Magdalena died in her father's arms September 20, 1542.
--I would put this between "Return to Wittenberg ..." and "The Peasants' War." drboisclair 22:32, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
I have added this paragraph with helpful emendations by Stanley Zegel. This could be built upon or edited. drboisclair 22:34, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
Hey, Stan, I understood that the marriage took place indoors before a small group. I know that it was customary for marriages to be held at the church door in those days; however, I do not think that Luther's was. I will research. Do you have clear research on this. Cheers, Dave drboisclair 10:22, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
Was she really Margareta Lindemann, as the article presently says? Other sources say M. Lindemann was the grandmother, and M. Ziegler was the mother. Because those whose last names begin with a "Z" are often not given their just recognition in this world, if the mother was indeed a Ziegler, she should be given credit for it! -- StanZegel (talk) 04:01, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
This is a very, very Luther is good article. I put up an POV flag and someone took it down. This isn't WikiChurch or anything. Need major editing and I can't believe my Flag was put down. It doesn't make sense.
-- CTSWyneken 11:00, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
I am proposing that a word(s) on Law/Gospel and a link to the article on Law and Gospel might be added to this section:
Luther's theory of grace The demanding discipline of earning academic degrees and preparing lectures drove Martin Luther to study the Scriptures in depth. Influenced by the call of humanism ad fontes—"to the sources"—he immersed himself in the study of the Bible and the early Church. Soon terms like penance and righteousness took on new meaning for Luther, and he became convinced that the Church had lost sight of several of the central truths of Christianity taught in Scripture—the most important of which being the doctrine of justification by faith alone. Luther began to teach that salvation is completely a gift of God's grace through Christ received by faith. {Luther's definition and reintroduction of the principle of the proper distinction between Law and Gospel safeguarded his theory of grace, which he believed to be the central message of Christianity.} drboisclair 00:05, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
-- CTSWyneken 18:34, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
Contrary to popular belief, Martin Luther never adequately understood the Catholic Church's teachings on indulgences. As a result, his inflammatory writings on the matter have caused much confusion, and have led many to imagine that the Church once handed out indulgences to the highest bidder, with no concern for true repentance of sins. This is, quite simply, a distortion of the actual Catholic doctrine, which was the same in the Middle Ages as it is today.
The whole controversy surrounding Luther and indulgences began when Pope Julius II decided to restore the beautiful Basilica of Saint Peter in Rome, originally built by Emperor Constantine. To help pay for the project, Julius' successor, Leo X, "proclaimed and Indulgence," which stated that anyone who might contribute to the restoration of the basilica, should receive, provided they make a sincere confession, remission of the "temporal guilt" associated with their sins - that is, the punishment they might receive in purgatory. This, of course, had nothing to do with future sins the contributor might make. As ever the Church carefully administered the indulgences, and allowed them only to those confessing humbly and faithfully.
Martin Luther's sermon attacking Leo X's Indulgence contained "no accurate reasoning, no grasp of the subject, but plenty of violent declamation." He personally attacked John Tetzel, who had replied soberly to Luther's charges in defense of the Church: "I laugh at your words as I do at the braying of an ass; instead of water, I recommend to you the juice of the grape; and instead of fire, inhale, my friend, the smell of roast goose."
(See the brilliantly documented "Facts About Luther" by Msgr O'Hare.)
(originally posted in the article, instead of on the talk page, 23:56, 3 November 2005 by IsabellasKnight)
With all due respect to the sincere Roman Catholic faith expressed in these paragraphs, this is simply an historical error. Martin Luther understood the concept of indulgences that they were the remitting or waiving by the pope of temporal penalties incurred by sins that are imposed by the church in its sacrament of penance. John Tetzel and his collegues did not disabuse their listeners of their simple belief that they were buying the forgiveness of sins, that indulgences were a plenary remission of eternal penalties. Luther at first did not advocate doing away with indulgences; he wanted them used properly. It was the Roman curia and the pope who blew things out of proportion by condemning Luther because he did not accept the novel concept that there was a treasury of merits gathered up of the surplus merit of Christ and the saints. This was vaguely set up in papal decretals of the then past two centuries 1300-1500. Luther encountering intransigent opposition began to investigate further into theology. This was what he was supposed to do as a doctor of theology. He was a teacher of the church, who was responsible to warn and instruct the church catholic on the true faith. I like to remember what Danny Thomas once said some 30 years ago about Pope John XXIII that if he had been pope in 1517 the Reformation would not have occurred. This may not be an historically accurate assessment, but it argues the need to get all the facts and sit down and dialogue. Allow the fresh air to air out the stale air in the church (aggiornamento). If the one who posted these paragraphs would examine the writings of scholarly Roman Catholic theologians like Fr. Harry McSorley or Fr. Daniel Olivier, he or she would have more insight to speak on these matters. Respectfully submitted IMHO, drboisclair 16:51, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Moving this from article main page to here for discussion as likely to be controversial and currently unsourced. Gaff 23:04, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Luther was prone to have religious hallucinations. Several times throughout his life, he claimed to have had arguments with satan while using the latrine. Apparently, he had human waste fights with satan, and by being the superior thrower, he would usually win the fights and cast the devil away. Whether this was true or whether he was insane will never be known, but it is safe to say these were strange occurences that no doubt affected him throughout his life.(edit by User: 70.33.58.128)
Luther may have thrown a bottle of ink at a vision of the devil--they still show the ink stain on the wall--but he never threw fecal material at anything. This is sheer nonsense. drboisclair 00:05, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
For Luther the bathroom was also a place of worship. His holiest monuments often came when he was seated on the privy (Abort) in a Wittenburg monastery tower. It was there, while moving his bowels, that he conceived the revolutionary Protestant doctrine of justification by faith. Afterward he wrote: "These words 'just' and 'justice of God' were a thunderbolt to my conscience. . . I soon had the thought [that] God's justice ought to be the salvation of every believer. . . Therefore it is God's justice which justifies us and saves us. And these words became a sweeter message for me. This knowledge the Holy Spirit gave me on the privy in the tower."
"Well, God is everywhere, as the Vatican conceded four centuries later, backing away from a Jesuit scholar who had gleefully translated explicit excretory passages in Luther's Sammitche Schriften. The Jesuit had provoked angry protests from Lutherans who accused him of "vulgar Catholic polemics." Yet the real vulgarity lies in Luther's own words, which his followers have shelved. They enjoy telling the story of how the devil threw ink at Luther and Luther threw it back. But in the original version it wasn't ink; it was Scheisse.
That feces was the ammunition Satan and his Wittenberg adversary employed against each other is clear from the rest of Luther's story, as set down by his Wittenberg faculty colleague Philipp Melanchthon: "Having been worsted. . . the Demon departed indignant and murmuring to himself after having emitted a crepitation of no small size, which left a foul stench in the chamber for several days afterwards."
Again and again, in recalling Satan's attacks on him, Luther uses the crude verb bescheissen, which describes what happens when someone soils you with his Scheiss. In another demonic stratagem, an apparition of the prince of darkness would humiliate the monk by "showing his arse" (Steiss). Fighting back, Luther adopted satanic tactics. He invited the devil to "kiss" or "lick" his Steiss, threatened to "throw him into my anus, where he belongs," to defecate "in his face" or, better yet, "in his pants" and then "hang them around his neck."
A man who battled the foulest of fiends in der Abort and die Latrine was unlikely to be intimidated by the vaudevillian Tetzel.
William Manchester, A World Lit Only By Fire, The Medieval Mind and the Renaissance (Boston, 1992), pp.139-140
-- jpgordon ∇∆∇∆ 00:44, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
Mozart also made scatological references about himself, but we do not punctuate his beautiful music with flatulant bursts. This scholar is not a Luther specialist, and the primary sources adduced do not specifically say that Luther pelted his diabolic visions with dung. To say that the toilet is a place of worship is only partly true in that God is everywhere, even in filthy places, and the Christian is to pray without ceasing. To demean Luther's sense of the holy and worship is sickening and unbecoming of a scholar.
Luther is a hero with feet of clay. His genius he shares with few, his feet of clay he shares with us all. Luther labors under the disadvantage of being a famous genius, whose every communication has been stored by the world. I daresay that all of us have embarrassing secrets that we would keep hid. Unfortunately for Luther he does not have that luxury.
Luther's Table Talk is probably the source of this unsavory aspect of his life. It is probably partly to mostly true; however, Romanist polemicists have exploited and taken these aspects out of context in order to discredit Luther's message, which happens to be the true central message of Christianity in my humble opinion.
We can be like giggling children in delighting in toilet humor, or we can show respect for a great man. In the end, the fool we make of him we make of ourselves. IMHO, David R. Boisclair drboisclair 07:09, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
First of all, this is an encyclopedia article, not a book. We should put here only the most general information.
Second, simply because something is in a book doesn't make it true. What are the sources, written in the 16th Century for this information?
-- CTSWyneken 11:00, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
I'll keep a running list of what I learn about this work under this title. The first thing I notice is that Manchester is a historian of the twentieth century, writing mostly about WWII. Medieval Mind is his only work outside that subject.
A review of the work in Word and World 14 (1994) no. 2:225-228 quotes the author's note from the work as saying: "Complete at last, this book is a source of pride, which is pleasant, though in this instance somewhat odd. It is, after all, a slight work, with no scholarly pretensions. All the sources are secondary, and few are new; I have not mastered recent scholarship on the early sixteenth century." p. xiii.
The reviewer says the work "displays a breathtaking lack of scholarship." and "obviously, the problems with this book are many. Events are sometimes related inaccurately. The conclusions drawn from particular events are often questionable. The presentation of facts is selective and biased. The method used is dubious. Someone interested in this period of history could find better books. It is hardly conceivable that one could find a worse book."
If you want to get into Luther's struggles, you need to find another work. read Obermann's Luther : man between God and the Devil and Brecht's three volume Martin Luther before adding material on this topic.
This book is not the first we hear about a preoccupation with what is called an "elimination theology": Osborne popularized this thinking with his Luther (play). I appreciate the work the above poster has brought to bear on this. drboisclair 14:56, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
Well guys, do you think this article meets the criteria for a featured article? Should we get an outside opinion on whether it is ready? -- StanZegel (talk) 02:13, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
No, Stan, I don't think we're at all ready for prime time. We have to put the whole thing on a diet, add missing topics, as I mentioned above, etc. If David has the time, we might also get Bob Kolb's suggestions.
-- CTSWyneken 11:34, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
I am sorry we have to go through this again. Recently we've had a long discussion that I thought ended with understanding and found a compromise. The current summary section misrepresents the content of Martin Luther and Antisemitism. Paul Johnson is a reputable Christian scholar. Why was his sourced quote removed? Even if there was "an anti-Christian pamphlet of Jewish authorship" (which one? just curious), I don't see how this can serve an excuse to calling for violence against entire Jewish communities. ← Humus sapiens ←ну? 10:16, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
-- CTSWyneken 12:51, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Do we wish to draw attention to John Frederick's unfortunate decree against the Jews in 1536? drboisclair 12:42, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
as his answer to an anti-Christian pamphlet of Jewish origin
Source please. Jayjg (talk) 19:26, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
because he deemed their denial of Christ to be blasphemy
Source please. Jayjg (talk) 19:27, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
Source please. Jayjg (talk) 19:28, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
Source, from the opening sentences of On the Jews and Their Lies:
-- StanZegel (talk) 19:45, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
Luther's harshness in this pamphlet was deeply deplored by his contemporaries.
This is not "obvious bunk". This is from the introduction to the translation of On the Jews and their lies: "Already upon its first appearance in the year 1543, Luther’s treatise caused widespread dismay, not only among contemporary Jews but also in Protestant circles. Melanchthon and Osiander are known to have been unhappy with its severity. Henry Bullinger, in correspondence with Martin Bucer, remarked that Luther’s views reminded him of those of the Inquisitors. And a subsequent document prepared by the churches of Zurich declared (speaking specifically of the treatise Vom Schem Hamphoras, published later in 1543), that “if it had been written by a swineherd, rather than by a celebrated shepherd of souls, it might have some—but very little—justification.” (American Edition of Luther's Works, vol. 47, p. 123).
The article states The relationship between Luther and the Jewish people is the subject of much controversy. What is the source for this claim, particularly "much controversy"? Jayjg (talk) 21:49, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
The claim that it has been the subject of "much controversy" is, in my view, quite incorrect. It was mildly controversial when written, generally not commented on for centuries, viewed with much approval by the Nazis, and finally censured in the late 20th century by almost everyone. The only "controversy" at all is a mild academic one, carried on by a small number of individuals, as to whether it is "anti-Judaism" or "anti-Semitism". The summary itself is quite short, and your "summaries" inevitably seem to contain Luther-apologetic POV, which is why direct quotes are essential. Furthermore, if Luther did indeed decry the Jews for "rejecting Christ" and "blaspheming" (which, in fact, is merely another way of saying they refused to convert to Luther's faith), then that must be directly quoted - otherwise it seems that Wikipedia itself is making the charge. Jayjg (talk) 22:57, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
I concur with Mr. Stan Zegel's proposal here. We should increase interest in the reader to look at Martin Luther and Antisemitism. drboisclair 15:47, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
If there is no evidence that it was controversial, then the statement doesn't belong on this "summary" page. An NPOV summary is both necessary and possible (and, in fact, exists now). The alternative is to restore the entire article to this page, which you removed in the first place. Continual attempts to minimize or remove any reference to this issue are simply not acceptable. Finally, if the paraphrases provided are inaccurate or POV (as they have in the past), then the actual quotes will have to stay. Jayjg (talk) 23:29, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
At the risk of sounding pedantic, I think that two issues, substantive and formal, are getting conflated here and thus leading to unnecessary counterproductivity. Here is, as I see it, the formal problem. It is well established, through a host of policies, foremost among them Wikipedia: Neutral point of view and Wikipedia:No original research that the views of editors are irrelevant to the contents of an article. The reason (at the risk of sounding pedantic) I remind yous guys of this has to do with the word "controversial." There certainly are "controversial" topics, and Luther's attitudes towards the Jews may be controversial. The sentence in question is, "The relationship between Luther and the Jewish people is the subject of much controversy." Here is the problem: it does not make clear, controversial among whom?. I raise this point because in my experience sentences like these often find there ways into Wikipedia articles when there has been a lot of contention among editors. And I believe that this is entirely inappropriate and a violation of our policies. That the question of Luther's anti-Judaism of anti-Semitism is a controversial matter among contributors working on this page, I have no doubt. But remember, editors views do not go into articles. The only thing that matters is controversies among scholars and between Jews and Protestants. This is my "formal" point: we can say that it is a matter of controversy only if the controversy is "out there," not in here.
This leads us to the substantive question. Is there a lot of controversy among scholars? This is far from my field, but as far as I know, the answer is "no." I think that most scholars acknowledge that at a certain point in his career it became evident that Luther was anti-Jew, and that this anti-Jew stance included problems he had with both Judaism and Jewish people. I also think that most Jews and Lutherans acknowledge this. I certainly remember that when the Lutherans (whatever the organ of that movement was) in effect apologized for Luther's anti-Semitism, it was a very big deal. And I was a little kid, it is not like I read the New York Times front to back every day. Like most kids I was pretty ignorant of most current affaires except for the big deals, like our losing Vietnam, Watergate, landing on the moon, and Lutherans apologizing. Anyway, that the Lutherans would apologize and that this made Jews happy signals to me that both Lutherans and Jews agreed that Luther had made many anti-Semitic remarks, i.e. there was no controversy over this.
If an editor wants to claim that I know little of the matter and that in fact there has been a lot of controversy out there (outside of this talk page, outside of Wikipedia), fine. But: show me the sources. Right now the article provides the name of one scholar, and refers to some primary sources. This to me is prima facie evidence that the topic is uncontroversial. If it were really controversial, I would expect a long list of people (scholars and leaders of the Lutheran Church and maybe even some Jews) who took one side, and a long list of people (scholars and leaders of the Jewish community, and maybe some Lutherans) who took another, irreconcilable side. I woulod expect reference to other signs of controversy: floor fights over contentious resolutions at meetings of Jewish and Lutheran religious leaders; the publication of a scholarly book that was widely attacked; a debate in an academic journal involving several scholars unfolding over several issues of the journal. To me these are all signs of controversy. Lacking them, I see no controversy. Slrubenstein | [[User talk:Slrubenstein|Talk]] 15:59, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
-- CTSWyneken 21:17, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Now that the intro sentence to the Luther and Antisemitism section of the main article has been deleted, we need to replace it with something. The section as it now reads is without transition and indication as to why we're bothering. Since I've taken a crack at it, only to be told I do not know what I'm talking about, will someone else take a crack at it?
-- CTSWyneken 11:38, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
I've taken a shot at rewording this intro. Does this work? -- CTSWyneken 11:00, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
The summary needs rework. Here are some points that need to be addressed:
Well, Humus, you have indeeded shortened it. Somewhat in the same manner as taking out the "N" shortens "NPOV." That is a prime example of why the issue is now a separate article -- so that a fair and balanced presentation can be made -- because there is no way to fairly summarize such a complex topic in only a sentence, and more than a sentence would be disproportionate in this article. This POV "summary" is not helpful. -- StanZegel (talk) 14:05, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
The Martin Luther and Antisemitism article deals with more than its present title, and is no longer really a subarticle of this one. It is an article on its own, althought it should be renamed Martin Luther and the Jews, in which Antisemitism and Antijudiasm are topics. -- StanZegel (talk) 13:45, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
I know there is continuing controversy here, over a difficult topic. For what it is worth, the current version (the timestamp of this comment minus two minutes) looks pretty good to me. Personally — I mean, this is not something I would want to get into an argument over — I would delete the sentence about most Lutherans feeling disheartened, which is vague and unsourced. Instead, I would quote one or two official Lutheran statements recanting Luther's anti-Semitism. Recanting or retracting or apologizing is a stronger statement than "disheartened" and in my opinion more meaningful — and of course it can be backed up with a verifiable source.
As to the discussion above: from the point of view of Jews, whether they are persecuted because of their race or their relion may not really matter to them, and I certainly do not think that this is relevant to this article. But whether Luther's antagonism towards Jews is motivated by, or takes the form of criticisms of, their race or their religion does seem to me to be important. This is not an arbitrary distinction and which one Luther appealed to at which time tells us something about the times in which Luther lived and the evolution of his thinking — two topics that are quite relevant to this article.
As to the link between Luther and Nazis, well, I think every scholar studying the Holocaust believes that 19th and 20th century anti-Semitism has roots in Christianity, whether the Gospel according to John or certain writings by Luther — but they also see anti-Semitism as such to be a modern phenomenon with other causes. Put another way, Luther's anti-Semitism (and/or anti/Judaism) was both the reflection or product of his time, and also contributed to the general culture of Protestant Europe (I would say the same about Hitler or Ghandi: their evil (or goodness) was both something they learned from their environment and something they contributed to their environment. In other words, I do not think this is a very controversial claim). The question is, how to express this as succinctly as possible and in accordance with our NPOV policy.
It appears to me that most contributers are differing over matters of degree and wording. In general and in principle I agree with and support everything Jayjg has recently written here. This article must have a summary of the linked article on Luther and the Jews. The summary has to comply with NPOV, and it has to be as brief as possible without sacrificing any major point of the linked article.
Despite weeks of controversy I see a lot of good will on all sides. I am certain that with time, patience to mull over different changes, and open discussion we will end up with a satisfactory summary pretty soon, Slrubenstein | [[User talk:Slrubenstein|Talk]] 00:38, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
-- CTSWyneken 13:56, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
The MacCulloch quote is brief and to the point - without it, 2/3 of the paragraph is a defence of Luther's statements about Jews, which is hardly reasonable, given that they are basically indefensible. Jayjg (talk) 21:06, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
I have added the Kittelson quotation for balance giving his scholarly view of Luther in this matter too. drboisclair 22:38, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
This section is too long. Please continue at #The way the summary stands. ← Humus sapiens ←ну? 01:57, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
An editor recently removed "a good deed offered to God" in the discription of the Eucharist as sacrifice. This phrase is precisely what the term "sacrifice" means. The RC Church believes that the Eucharist is something that the church offers to God to propitiate Him for the sins of the living and the dead. In recent years it has clarified itself to point out that the Eucharist is the church's participation in the one sacrifice of Christ, but that was not clearly held at the time of Luther. The phrase is needed to define what "sacrifice" means. Also the editor added the term "forgiven" to sins confessed that are the subject matter of indulgences. This may be a modern view of the RC Church, but it was not the position of the RC Church of Luther's day. "Absolution" or "forgiveness" conferred by the priest on the penitent was merely the reduction of the eternal penalties of his sins into temporal penalties, which were then dealt with either by satisfactions, time in purgatory, or indulgences. Forgiveness was contingent upon the completion of satisfactions for the temporal penalties. The RC Church may have modified their stance in the present day. drboisclair 03:37, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
I vaguely remember this comment being challenged as authentic:
and also one not in the article by Elector Frederick:
Does anyone have a source for them?
I'd also like to delete, if there are no objects, the details below, in interest of saving space:
Enough for now. 8-) -- CTSWyneken 14:24, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
Would also like to delete the following:
I commend the editors who have constructed the paragraph on Martin Luther and the Jews in this article. I think that a consensus has been achieved that satisfies the NPOV, etc. I congratulate you, gentlemen and ladies, for your good editing. The article is doing well on its diet. Now, of course, we must have eternal vigilance against all those Vandals. We will not sleep, Vandals! drboisclair 19:30, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
I'll get back into this later when I have some time, but I think it is important to remember that while some may want to go out of their way to force into the reader's mind at every opportunity that Luther had to be a horrible person because of some remarks about Jews, the place to tar and feather him is in the article on that subject. As long as there are links (and there are now three links from this article to Martin Luther and the Jews), there is no need to start the attack here. Readers more interested in Luther's thoughts about the Jews than his work in translating the Bible will easily be able to find the red carpet to that article. As for Luther, he spent less time thinking about Jews than he did about Christ, the Bible, Theology and other things more important to him. This redundant summary of another article is already about as long as the section on his translations of the Bible. I think even the shortened version by CTSWyneken is too detailed, and I wonder why there is even (other than advocacy for a POV) a "summary" on this topic at all, when there is none on any of the other See Also entries. This topic should be no different. -- StanZegel (talk) 13:24, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps I should explain why I consider the quote by MacCulloch so important to be in the summary.
Dear Humus, don't you think that the MacCullouch quotation gives the impression that Luther is directly responsible for the Kristallnacht and the Nazis? Why not the Johnson quotation or the Telushkin quotation? Quoting it in that succinct manner may give the reader the impression that Luther wanted such a manifestation like the Third Reich. His program in "Von den Jueden ..." was used by others over 400 years after it was written. Quoting from MacCulloch obscures the fact that others 400 years later used Luther's writings. It must be put in context, which is done in the ML and the Jews article. drboisclair 00:40, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
One other argument against the inclusion of the MacCulloch quotation is that it is irrelevant to Luther himself, which is the subject of the article. MacCulloch is giving his own POV as to the 20th Century use of Luther's treatise. It would be similar to putting a quotation in the article about Niccolò Machiavelli about the manner his work "The Prince" was used, for example, by Benito Mussolini. Luther's work "On the Jews ..." was used by the Nazis as their blueprint of the Krystallnacht. Luther did not conceive of a Krystallnacht. To accuse Luther of coming up with the "blueprint of the Krystallnacht" is a gross anachronism. Whether or not any of his writings were used by persons in the 20th Century is irrelevant to this article. It might be relevant to an article on Antisemitism, Nazism, or Medieval Antisemitism. It would be germane to the ML and the Jews article or an article on the treatise in question, but not this article. The quotation also intrudes another topic into the summary, which makes for further point counterpoint as Stanley Zegel has pointed out above. Besides, the summary by its nature should be of a general character. It would be redundant to place the quotation here and in the ML & t J article. For these reasons and for the reasons that CTSWyneken and Stanley Zegel have adduced I oppose inclusion of the MacCulloch quotation here. Please think about these valid reasons against inclusion. Let the debate be joined where it needs to be: in the Martin Luther and the Jews article. Respectfully submitted, drboisclair 05:17, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
I am sorry to find this discussion deteriorate. I find SZ's comments unacceptable ("wallow", "afraid", "spin", etc.) The absence of calls to civility is duly noted.
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Petrarch No mention of how his works are used in the present.
Erasmus Although there is mention of the RCC’s disappointment with him, there is nothing about his works being used by present day activists (Much about legacy)
Thomas More Point of interest: Marius considered him a fanatic. There is nothing that speaks of a writing of his used by a present day group. (Much about legacy)
William Tyndale There is much about his legacy, but nothing about a contemporary use of his works.
John Colet a little on his legacy, but nothing about his works being used by contemporaries to further their ends.
Martin Bucer Martin Bucer before 1543 had written a derogatory book ‘’On the Jews’’ in 1539, which had caused him to be regarded by the Jews as their chief antagonist among the Protestant Reformers up to 1542. Nothing in his article about this work or about its use in modern times.
Johann Eck He wrote a book against the Jews known as Refutation of a Jew-Book (Ains Juden-buechlins Verlegung), but there is nothing about his antijudaism let alone no mention of the use made of his works in the modern day.
John Calvin mention is made of a discussion of his doctrine of double predestination in a movie “Hardcore” but nothing about the use of his works in the modern day.
Huldrych Zwingli Nothing on any of his writings being used in the modern day
Nostradamus notable exception: the use of his works is noted in the article.
William Farel Nothing about his writings being used in the modern day.
William Shakespeare As you might guess, the information on him is so vast that other articles are referenced that discuss modern use of his work. Luther should be a parallel to Shakespeare in the manner in which his article is set up. We could use the Shakespeare article as a guide in setting up the main Luther article. Shakespeare's article is brief and loaded with internal links. drboisclair 20:00, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Collier's Encyclopedia, Academic American Encyclopedia, World Book Encyclpedia do not mention Luther's views of the Jews at all.
The Funk & Wagnalls New Encyclopedia Vol. 16, 261-264, includes the following words on Luther and the Jews: "he felt burdened by the resurgence of the papacy and by what he preceived as an attempt by the Jews to take advantage of the confusion among Christians and reopen the question of Jesus' messaihship. Apprehensive about his own responsibility for this situation, he wrote a violent polemic against the Jews, as well as polemics against the papacy and the radical wing of the reformers" -- CTSWyneken 04:25, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Encyclopedia Americana has the following on the subject: "Luther's later life was fraught with unending controversies with the Catholics and with the radicals in his own camp. He grew more harsh toward the Papists, the Jews, and the "fanatics." 17:859-862.
Encyclopedia Britannica, with the longest article, says the following: "Among his last writings, Against the Anabaptists, Against the Jews, Against the Papacy at Rome, Founded by the Devil, the most violent is the last, coarse and angry, but sitll defiant." Macropedia vol. 23:305-313.
The article United States has 30 subarticles, 29 of which have summaries, one of which does not. No quotations are made in these summaries.
The article History of England has 12 subarticles, 12 summaries, in which there is one quotation and one citation.
The article Judaism has 21 subarticles, depending on how you count it, all have some summary, in which there is one citation.
The article Christianity has 2 subarticles, 3 summaries and no quotations or citations in them.
The article Islam has eight subarticles, eight summaries, three quotes from the Quran in the Allah summary and three citations in the demographics summary.
The article Holocaust has ten subarticles, ten summaries and three quotes in two summaries. -- CTSWyneken 21:08, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Obituary [6]
Page number where Luther's views on the Jews are discussed: 233-243
Evidence given to support opinion:: None. The book is not documented beyond an extensive bibliography at the end of the work.
Counter arguments cited and addressed: fair representation of other side and reasoned replies to those positions.
Quote found at: 482
Evidence given to support opinion:: None. This book, unlike his first, is documented extensively, however.
Counter arguments cited and addressed: None to this particular point, although he does cite and fairly address other viewpoints in an earlier chapter.
Notes: Differs with MacCulloch on Luther's responsibility for the Holocaust. "Luther never organized any campaign against the Jews, and, as Heiko Oberman has said, despite the ferocity of his tirades against them he never renounced the notion of coexistence between Jews and Christians. But the fact that Luther's hostility to Jews was not the same as modern anti-Semitism does not excuse it." p. 380
UPI Religion Editor. [7]
Interview with Christianity Today [8]
Vitae [9]
In the Bibliography of Carter Lindberg, The European Reformations Blackwell, 1996, p. 430.
Cited as authority in Mark C. Mattes. Role of Justification in Contemporary Theology Eerdmans, 2004, p. 90, note 20.
Review in First Things [10]-- CTSWyneken 22:15, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Professor at Oxford [11] [12] [13]
National Review [14]
About.com Agnostism/Atheism group [15]
Page number where quotes are located: 666-667
Evidence given to support opinion:: None
Counter arguments cited and addressed: None
Folks, we were going to return to this discussion after a week. I realize it is only a couple of weeks till Christmas so if you are taking a vacation, I understand. Meanwhile I did a little homework. I must confess, the result (follows below) is even more upsetting than I expected. ← Humus sapiens ←ну? 12:54, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
I think a part of the problem is that books/encylopedias, etc. older than 1983 do not mention the problem. So far, I tried to rely on non-Jewish sources. ← Humus sapiens ←ну? 12:50, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
We need technical assistance to help the article as it appears. There is an enormous space that appears after the caption "Luther's early life". As you can see I have been trying different formatting changes without changing the text, but to no avail. There is still a large space that occurs after "Luther's early life" caption. Please help! drboisclair 23:58, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
I have made the first portrait, the coat of arms, and the picture of Luther's birthplace smaller, and that has seemed to help the "space" or lacuna problem after the first caption: "Luther's early life"; however, this may not be acceptable, so assistance on this would be appreciated. drboisclair 00:04, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
I guess that it is back to normal now. Maybe it was a glitch in my computer. drboisclair 00:34, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone mind if I execute the edits listed under the section labeled Streamlining... above? -- CTSWyneken 10:32, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
I have no objections. drboisclair 16:12, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
I saw that somebody listed Martin Luther under the category "Humanists." Was Martin Luther a Humanist? I don't think so. Comments? -- Jbull 22:38, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
Spitz, Lewis William, 1922- Luther and German humanism. Aldershot, Great Britain ; Brookfield, Vt., USA : Variorum, 1996.
Junghans, Helmar. Der junge Luther und die Humanisten. Göttingen : Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, 1985.
Tracy, James D."Humanism and the Reformation" in Reformation Europe : a guide to research St. Louis : Center for Reformation Research, c1982.
Grossmann, Maria. Humanism in Wittenberg, 1485-1517 Nieuwkoop : De Graaf, 1975.-- CTSWyneken 14:20, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
No one is allowed to censor Wikipedia. Do not remove "scatological quotes" from the article on the grounds that modern readers wouldn t understand the context. If these quotes prove that Luther was a vulgarian, so be it.
Wikipedia should not endorse or opposed any Point Of View, so we should balance these vulgarisms with scholarly analysys which denies that Luther was a vulgarian, if that's the problem.
And all the other lengthy policy quotes are not necessary. I've been here 4 years, I know the policies fairly well by now. Just follow them, and help each other make an accurate and neutral article, please. Uncle Ed 23:46, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Working as a team, censorship by CTSWyneken, Drboisclair, StanZegel continues with increasing boldness. What can be done to limit this conduct? Repeated misconduct has been documented. For example, here. [ [16]]. They even stalk me to ensure their censoring is complete. For example, here. Whitewashing when they entirely delete the example of historical whitewashing given by Dr. Robert Michael who is a 1997 recipient of the American Historical Association's James Harvey Robinson Prize for the "most outstanding contribution to the teaching and learning of history" [ [17]].
I have just added a new section to Judaism and Christianity on "love." It is just a stub of a section, hopefully others will add more about the Jewish notion. But I know that my characterization of the Christian notion is at best wildly incomplete. Perhaps among the contributors to this page there are some who could go over it and add whatever additional material, detail, nuance, explanation they think necessary. I am very concerned about not misrepresenting, or doing justice to, the Christian point of view. I also added a long quote from Maimonides to the section on Heaven and Hell; in fact, I did a rewrite a week or two ago. I know the Jewish position is well-represented but again I am concerned that in the process the Christian view may appear misrepresented or at least underrepresented. So, I'd be grateful if someone checked and made sure the Christian view(s) are accurately and sufficiently represented. Thanks, Slrubenstein | Talk 20:44, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for the invite, SL. I'll take a look if time permits. (something it doesn't often do in December!) --
CTSWyneken
11:35, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
"Luther began to teach that salvation is completely a gift of God's grace through Christ received by faith."
Last time I looked, the Catholic Church taught "that salvation is completely a gift of God's grace through Christ received by faith" too.
...?
I want to express my appreciation for the edits of the Luther and the Jews paragraph on the part of user:Humus_sapiens. It is very helpful. drboisclair 21:09, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
Luther was not a political revolutionary. I believe that including him in this subcategory is misleading and should be removed, and I have done it. Labeling Luther a "revolutionary" betrays a cursory knowledge of him and his writings. drboisclair 13:08, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
Fellow editors:
I've put all the current information on the copyright of Martin's Luther's On the Jews and Their Lies into the copyright topic page. For future reference, I'll put anything new I discover there and will answer questions about the status of this and other works at that location. -- CTSWyneken 16:02, 31 December 2005 (UTC)