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Added more neutral clarifications on this region. Atabek ( talk) 01:06, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
I am finding enough evidence that demonstrates that "Ağdərə" is the Azeri word for "Mardakert", e.g. [2]. John Vandenberg ( chat) 22:47, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
I am not sure why Azeri cities should have Armenian names attached to them, but possible compromise could be adding historical Azeri names to several Armenian cities like Ijevan, Zod, etc. which were subjected to renaming during Soviet period. Atabek ( talk) 18:24, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
In this case, because they are contested and the local population, regardless of how Baku feels about it, has different names, they should both be presented. In contested areas, or areas where the local name (regardless of if the NKR is real, the Armenians who live in the region are real) differs from the official name or the widely-known English name, I think we should always present both names. Examples: Nicosia, Kyrenia, Nanjing, Grozny, Aksai Chin, and Kiev, among many others. It's just that the differences in Armenian and Azeri are so stark, with few comparisons worldwide (Cyprus mainly is the only other one) -- Golbez ( talk) 19:56, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, but what do you mean by "legitimately disputed territory"? Sounds like non-neutral WP:OR to me. And quite frankly, it's irrelevant in this context, as territory of Armenia can be claimed by Azerbaijan as much as Armenia attempts to claim parts of Azerbaijan. Not only in early Soviet period, but prior to that, for example, Dilijan was Karavansaray, and actually Stepanakert was known as small village of Khankendi, before it was renamed after Bolshevik Stepan Shaumyan. Same goes with other Turkic names like Lake Goycha for Sevan, Daralagoz, and other Turkic or Persian names in Armenia. So the approach shall be reciprocal. Atabek ( talk) 22:52, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
I think these titles have to do with historical realities rather than claims of "legitimacy" or vice versa, which are subject to various interpretations/biases on each side. It's pretty straightforward, if the city is in Azerbaijan, and we want Armenian spelling to be shown, then the same should apply to Azeri titles in Armenia. Wikipedia is not a political medium, to legitimize the consequence of war, that's a task for politicians, armies and diplomats. Atabek ( talk) 00:58, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Check Istanbul - Byzantium no longer exists to control the city and call it Constantinople. How about Antalya? Per your logic we should have also removed the Armenian spelling and in fact rename Artsvashen, because it's not controlled by Armenians. As I said, irredentist interpretations will only introduce unnecessary dimension for new and useless edit conflicts over minor issues. The choice is very straight forward, either we use all historical titles for a given city/town, or we use just the spelling where it's legally located. Atabek ( talk) 01:27, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
One other problem between the naming of these regions across languages is that Mardakert is the official name for the NKR and Armenia and has good international coverage. It is the name of an official political boundary (the province). According to Azerbaijan, Mardakert is officially divided between the Terter region and the Kalbajar region. So Ağdərə is strictly a temporary name. So the beginning of the article is misleading as it gives Ağdərə the impression of official status. It would be equally misleading if we put Terter and/or Kalbajar as this would be comparing apples to oranges as they are completely different geographically. The point is that this article doubles as a geographic and a political area so Ağdərə would be out of place at the beginning. My suggestion is leave it out of the beginning of the article but put it in the body of the article and explain the background behind the name. Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 03:47, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Pocopocopocopoco, we cannot predict the future, and the situation may get drastically different in any of the directions. So we have to go with present status quo. Since you refer to international coverage, from international point of view, NK is integral part of Azerbaijan and hence any administrative division of Azerbaijan thereof legally applies, and so does name Agdere. Atabek ( talk) 14:36, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
What does Ehud mean by "Ağdərə is a region of Azerbaijan". Is it a geographical region? Is it an historical name? What evidence is there of that? Is it just an invented name from the 1990s or later? It is certainly not an administrative region, even a symbolic de-jure one, so it shouldn't really be placed beside the explanation that Mardakert is an administrative province. The rayon/administrative region of Mardakert wasn't renamed Ağdərə by Azerbaijan, Mardakert was abolished and its territory symbolically divided between neighbouring regions outside of Nagorno Karabakh and which at the time Azerbaijan still fully controlled (though it later lost control of Kelbajar). I agree with Pocopocopocopoco - there is a lack of clarity at the start of the article. Meowy 16:29, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This disambiguation page does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
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Added more neutral clarifications on this region. Atabek ( talk) 01:06, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
I am finding enough evidence that demonstrates that "Ağdərə" is the Azeri word for "Mardakert", e.g. [2]. John Vandenberg ( chat) 22:47, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
I am not sure why Azeri cities should have Armenian names attached to them, but possible compromise could be adding historical Azeri names to several Armenian cities like Ijevan, Zod, etc. which were subjected to renaming during Soviet period. Atabek ( talk) 18:24, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
In this case, because they are contested and the local population, regardless of how Baku feels about it, has different names, they should both be presented. In contested areas, or areas where the local name (regardless of if the NKR is real, the Armenians who live in the region are real) differs from the official name or the widely-known English name, I think we should always present both names. Examples: Nicosia, Kyrenia, Nanjing, Grozny, Aksai Chin, and Kiev, among many others. It's just that the differences in Armenian and Azeri are so stark, with few comparisons worldwide (Cyprus mainly is the only other one) -- Golbez ( talk) 19:56, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, but what do you mean by "legitimately disputed territory"? Sounds like non-neutral WP:OR to me. And quite frankly, it's irrelevant in this context, as territory of Armenia can be claimed by Azerbaijan as much as Armenia attempts to claim parts of Azerbaijan. Not only in early Soviet period, but prior to that, for example, Dilijan was Karavansaray, and actually Stepanakert was known as small village of Khankendi, before it was renamed after Bolshevik Stepan Shaumyan. Same goes with other Turkic names like Lake Goycha for Sevan, Daralagoz, and other Turkic or Persian names in Armenia. So the approach shall be reciprocal. Atabek ( talk) 22:52, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
I think these titles have to do with historical realities rather than claims of "legitimacy" or vice versa, which are subject to various interpretations/biases on each side. It's pretty straightforward, if the city is in Azerbaijan, and we want Armenian spelling to be shown, then the same should apply to Azeri titles in Armenia. Wikipedia is not a political medium, to legitimize the consequence of war, that's a task for politicians, armies and diplomats. Atabek ( talk) 00:58, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Check Istanbul - Byzantium no longer exists to control the city and call it Constantinople. How about Antalya? Per your logic we should have also removed the Armenian spelling and in fact rename Artsvashen, because it's not controlled by Armenians. As I said, irredentist interpretations will only introduce unnecessary dimension for new and useless edit conflicts over minor issues. The choice is very straight forward, either we use all historical titles for a given city/town, or we use just the spelling where it's legally located. Atabek ( talk) 01:27, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
One other problem between the naming of these regions across languages is that Mardakert is the official name for the NKR and Armenia and has good international coverage. It is the name of an official political boundary (the province). According to Azerbaijan, Mardakert is officially divided between the Terter region and the Kalbajar region. So Ağdərə is strictly a temporary name. So the beginning of the article is misleading as it gives Ağdərə the impression of official status. It would be equally misleading if we put Terter and/or Kalbajar as this would be comparing apples to oranges as they are completely different geographically. The point is that this article doubles as a geographic and a political area so Ağdərə would be out of place at the beginning. My suggestion is leave it out of the beginning of the article but put it in the body of the article and explain the background behind the name. Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 03:47, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Pocopocopocopoco, we cannot predict the future, and the situation may get drastically different in any of the directions. So we have to go with present status quo. Since you refer to international coverage, from international point of view, NK is integral part of Azerbaijan and hence any administrative division of Azerbaijan thereof legally applies, and so does name Agdere. Atabek ( talk) 14:36, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
What does Ehud mean by "Ağdərə is a region of Azerbaijan". Is it a geographical region? Is it an historical name? What evidence is there of that? Is it just an invented name from the 1990s or later? It is certainly not an administrative region, even a symbolic de-jure one, so it shouldn't really be placed beside the explanation that Mardakert is an administrative province. The rayon/administrative region of Mardakert wasn't renamed Ağdərə by Azerbaijan, Mardakert was abolished and its territory symbolically divided between neighbouring regions outside of Nagorno Karabakh and which at the time Azerbaijan still fully controlled (though it later lost control of Kelbajar). I agree with Pocopocopocopoco - there is a lack of clarity at the start of the article. Meowy 16:29, 23 April 2008 (UTC)