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The source says "Mark has reported from dozens of countries across the Middle East and Asia, covering stories in Syria, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Morocco, Lebanon, Iran, South Korea and Thailand it does not say more than a doezen middle east countries which an editor has consistently insisted. further skewing of this statement is disruptive and vandalism. LibStar ( talk) 23:14, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
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There are a number of issues with the article currently, which I have attempted to fix but my edits have been reverted by @ Tokyo Oz, who I believe may have a direct interest in this article (due to this being the sole article they edit on Wikipedia). I would like to ensure that this article aligns to address what I perceieve as puffery and peacocking which were originally added by @ Tokyo Oz seemingly to inflate the article (speculatively, perhaps for book sales). I hold out an olive branch to try to resolve these issues without administrator sanctions, but the article needs to present a neutral point of view. Selectively including uncited book reviewed and including them on the author's article is not balanced. I ask please identify what issues there are with my edit: [1], and advise why it was reverted without comment nor notification. I ask we use the article talkpage to discuss, rather than my talkpage, following the comments made here: [2]. Aeonx ( talk) 04:45, 1 October 2021 (UTC)
@ Sparticusmaximus, I'm attempting to add balance to the article regarding Willacy's allegations about Australian special forces' war crimes; Willacy's commentary on this matter is not limited to his 3rd book but also a series of television and ABC News online segments published by his employer, ABC News. The Veteran Support Force published letter from November Platoon Commander, Heston Russell (also apparently the Managing Director of the Veteran Support Force), directly counters the alleged war crimes picked-up and published by Willacy here: [3]. In the interest of avoiding WP:OR and keeping to the cited sources, I've updated the section you reverted, I think this addresses your concerns. To elaborate on my concerns on the article, and why I think this section is necessary is that Wikipedia may be inavertedly peacocking Willacy and his journalism to provide truth to the allegations or even promote his books (which really is not encyclopaedic). The reality is the evidence for some allegations is questionable as noted in Brereton Report. As far as I can identify from public sources, there was no independent investigative verification or validation done by the book's publisher of Willacy's claims with regards to his reporting on alleged war crimes by Australian soldiers in Afghanistan. Aeonx ( talk) 11:34, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
I think you mistakenly presume the story in relation to November Platoon is “based, it seems, purely on a single anonymous source…(etc)..” The ABC in a media statement on November 19, 2021 said: “The story was the result of extensive work over two months, including multiple interviews with the key source, who stands by his account.
We do not comment in detail on our war crimes stories outside our careful reporting, as that has the potential to jeopardise confidential sources – people who themselves are or were members of the military – and adversely impact a sensitive and important investigation by the Office of the Special Investigator… “ Willacy’s reporting has been based on concerns raised from within the ranks of the elite unit by serving and former members, SAS operators, support staff and intelligence officers.
Stories he has produced have been followed up by the Brereton Inquiry and sparked a war crimes investigation by the AFP. At all times Defence has been provided with an opportunity to respond to the issues raised in the reporting.” A key point in regard to your apparent determination to frame the reporting chiefly as an object of criticism above one of revelation is that the Defence Department has not disputed or criticised the report (where reports are demonstrably false the department has not hesitated to do so previously). The details given by the Department in its reasons for the decision in response to the ABC’s Freedom of Information application make clear that it is the conduct of November Platoon that is the subject of a current criminal investigation. Given the scope and timing of the material sought in the application, it could not be otherwise. Peter Dutton’s response becomes more problematic in the wake of the Department of Defence’s FOI decision reasons, rather than to bolster Russell’s complaint. TruthAndContext ( talk) 10:16, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
@aeonx You’ve included claims by the former platoon commander, including an interpretation of the defence document and the ABC article, that are inaccurate and not supported by evidence. Inclusion of unsupported commentary is more in line with journalistic neutrality over encyclopaedic neutrality, hence not appropriate here. Have amended to reflect this. TruthAndContext ( talk) 06:25, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
Regardless of the date range in the FOI, the report states mid-2012 and September is in the range. I believe you have consistently shown bias towards Russell’s POV and exhibiting false equivalence, which is inappropriate here given the need for encyclopaedic neutrality. TruthAndContext ( talk) 08:00, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
I've just popped back to here to find the criticism section to have entirely blown out of proportion on a page that is supposed to be dedicated to an author. The page should primarily be about the author, his career, works, etc. While I think it may be appropriate to briefly note that some people may dispute the author's reporting, I believe it is neither encyclopedic nor appropriate to include an extended debate on the nuances of a critique of a single topic a journalist reports on, on a page that is intended to describe the journalist themselves. This single critique is now the largest component on the page and is entirely out of balance with the purpose of the page as a biography. The critique is also based almost entirely on the testimony of a person who is alleged to have some connection to the crimes in question. I therefore propose the following steps.
I will attempt to fairly implement those edits now. The removed material from the Willacy page has been copied to: Talk:War crimes in Afghanistan. If a reversion to the situation I describe above is sought for the Mark Willacy page, then I think it is approaching time to bring in a neutral third party to consider just how much of this material is appropriate on a biography page. It may also be worth considering the establishment of a Heston Russel page considering his new status as a leader of an Australian political party, and his increasing public profile. Sparticusmaximus ( talk) 07:16, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
Are these reports worth including?
LibStar ( talk) 02:46, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
I'm short on time. I'll try get on later to articulate but Willacy's reporting of alleged Afghan War Crimes and his subsequent book and news articles about it are widely reported. The Mark Willacy article is incomplete and unbalanced without this important biographical information and view. It needs to be restored in some form. Aeonx ( talk) 19:59, 25 October 2022 (UTC)
Just to split this from the above, here are the sources used before the paragraph was removed.
Numbers 1 and 2 are from ABC, 3 is a radio station basically just copying ABC's press release, 4 is a primary source (interview with the subject of the article that kicked this whole thing off), as is 5 (in prose form). In other words, we have 4 of the 5 sources being primary, with the fifth giving almost no extra information anyway. For something like this to be "a story" we really should have it flipped, in that maybe a reference or two be primary but the majority being from independent sources. Primefac ( talk) 12:20, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
ABC News rejects Mr Russell’s claims about the content of his conversation with Mark Willacy at a Brisbane bookshop on 28 September 2021) and once in a fairly irrelevant way (
The lead reporter, Mark Willacy, has won a Gold Walkley for his reporting on alleged war crimes). [3] fails to mention Willacy. [4] is primary and I haven't watched it yet. [5] is self-published, although it mentions him once. Of these new sources: 9News mentions him once at the very end (
Investigative journalists Joshua Robertson and Mark Willacy have also been named in the lawsuit); the Lawyerly source is inaccessible to me; Epoch Times is a poor source. The last source mentions Willacy at the very beginning and several more times throughout.
Comment: The October 2020 article didn't identify the commando platoon alleged to be involved in the unlawful killing. After it was published, November platoon commander Heston Russell claimed it did with Media Watch, The Project and 2GB reporting that November platoon was identified. The ABC later in 2022 added a clarification to the article as readers could have misinterpreted the article. In a follow up ABC article in November 2021, November platoon was initially identified as being involved which was later corrected in 2022. Russell's defamation proceeding is for the November 2021 article and for it's hyperlink to the October 2020. [1] [2] The revised wording of the Wikipedia article implies that the platoon was identified in the October 2020 article. User Mark Willacy points out above that the article did not identify a platoon and that a clarification was added. Melbguy05 ( talk) 01:32, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
References
This article was nominated for deletion on 19 October 2022. The result of the discussion was keep. |
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Mark Willacy article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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The source says "Mark has reported from dozens of countries across the Middle East and Asia, covering stories in Syria, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Morocco, Lebanon, Iran, South Korea and Thailand it does not say more than a doezen middle east countries which an editor has consistently insisted. further skewing of this statement is disruptive and vandalism. LibStar ( talk) 23:14, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Mark Willacy. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 16:19, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
There are a number of issues with the article currently, which I have attempted to fix but my edits have been reverted by @ Tokyo Oz, who I believe may have a direct interest in this article (due to this being the sole article they edit on Wikipedia). I would like to ensure that this article aligns to address what I perceieve as puffery and peacocking which were originally added by @ Tokyo Oz seemingly to inflate the article (speculatively, perhaps for book sales). I hold out an olive branch to try to resolve these issues without administrator sanctions, but the article needs to present a neutral point of view. Selectively including uncited book reviewed and including them on the author's article is not balanced. I ask please identify what issues there are with my edit: [1], and advise why it was reverted without comment nor notification. I ask we use the article talkpage to discuss, rather than my talkpage, following the comments made here: [2]. Aeonx ( talk) 04:45, 1 October 2021 (UTC)
@ Sparticusmaximus, I'm attempting to add balance to the article regarding Willacy's allegations about Australian special forces' war crimes; Willacy's commentary on this matter is not limited to his 3rd book but also a series of television and ABC News online segments published by his employer, ABC News. The Veteran Support Force published letter from November Platoon Commander, Heston Russell (also apparently the Managing Director of the Veteran Support Force), directly counters the alleged war crimes picked-up and published by Willacy here: [3]. In the interest of avoiding WP:OR and keeping to the cited sources, I've updated the section you reverted, I think this addresses your concerns. To elaborate on my concerns on the article, and why I think this section is necessary is that Wikipedia may be inavertedly peacocking Willacy and his journalism to provide truth to the allegations or even promote his books (which really is not encyclopaedic). The reality is the evidence for some allegations is questionable as noted in Brereton Report. As far as I can identify from public sources, there was no independent investigative verification or validation done by the book's publisher of Willacy's claims with regards to his reporting on alleged war crimes by Australian soldiers in Afghanistan. Aeonx ( talk) 11:34, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
I think you mistakenly presume the story in relation to November Platoon is “based, it seems, purely on a single anonymous source…(etc)..” The ABC in a media statement on November 19, 2021 said: “The story was the result of extensive work over two months, including multiple interviews with the key source, who stands by his account.
We do not comment in detail on our war crimes stories outside our careful reporting, as that has the potential to jeopardise confidential sources – people who themselves are or were members of the military – and adversely impact a sensitive and important investigation by the Office of the Special Investigator… “ Willacy’s reporting has been based on concerns raised from within the ranks of the elite unit by serving and former members, SAS operators, support staff and intelligence officers.
Stories he has produced have been followed up by the Brereton Inquiry and sparked a war crimes investigation by the AFP. At all times Defence has been provided with an opportunity to respond to the issues raised in the reporting.” A key point in regard to your apparent determination to frame the reporting chiefly as an object of criticism above one of revelation is that the Defence Department has not disputed or criticised the report (where reports are demonstrably false the department has not hesitated to do so previously). The details given by the Department in its reasons for the decision in response to the ABC’s Freedom of Information application make clear that it is the conduct of November Platoon that is the subject of a current criminal investigation. Given the scope and timing of the material sought in the application, it could not be otherwise. Peter Dutton’s response becomes more problematic in the wake of the Department of Defence’s FOI decision reasons, rather than to bolster Russell’s complaint. TruthAndContext ( talk) 10:16, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
@aeonx You’ve included claims by the former platoon commander, including an interpretation of the defence document and the ABC article, that are inaccurate and not supported by evidence. Inclusion of unsupported commentary is more in line with journalistic neutrality over encyclopaedic neutrality, hence not appropriate here. Have amended to reflect this. TruthAndContext ( talk) 06:25, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
Regardless of the date range in the FOI, the report states mid-2012 and September is in the range. I believe you have consistently shown bias towards Russell’s POV and exhibiting false equivalence, which is inappropriate here given the need for encyclopaedic neutrality. TruthAndContext ( talk) 08:00, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
I've just popped back to here to find the criticism section to have entirely blown out of proportion on a page that is supposed to be dedicated to an author. The page should primarily be about the author, his career, works, etc. While I think it may be appropriate to briefly note that some people may dispute the author's reporting, I believe it is neither encyclopedic nor appropriate to include an extended debate on the nuances of a critique of a single topic a journalist reports on, on a page that is intended to describe the journalist themselves. This single critique is now the largest component on the page and is entirely out of balance with the purpose of the page as a biography. The critique is also based almost entirely on the testimony of a person who is alleged to have some connection to the crimes in question. I therefore propose the following steps.
I will attempt to fairly implement those edits now. The removed material from the Willacy page has been copied to: Talk:War crimes in Afghanistan. If a reversion to the situation I describe above is sought for the Mark Willacy page, then I think it is approaching time to bring in a neutral third party to consider just how much of this material is appropriate on a biography page. It may also be worth considering the establishment of a Heston Russel page considering his new status as a leader of an Australian political party, and his increasing public profile. Sparticusmaximus ( talk) 07:16, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
Are these reports worth including?
LibStar ( talk) 02:46, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
I'm short on time. I'll try get on later to articulate but Willacy's reporting of alleged Afghan War Crimes and his subsequent book and news articles about it are widely reported. The Mark Willacy article is incomplete and unbalanced without this important biographical information and view. It needs to be restored in some form. Aeonx ( talk) 19:59, 25 October 2022 (UTC)
Just to split this from the above, here are the sources used before the paragraph was removed.
Numbers 1 and 2 are from ABC, 3 is a radio station basically just copying ABC's press release, 4 is a primary source (interview with the subject of the article that kicked this whole thing off), as is 5 (in prose form). In other words, we have 4 of the 5 sources being primary, with the fifth giving almost no extra information anyway. For something like this to be "a story" we really should have it flipped, in that maybe a reference or two be primary but the majority being from independent sources. Primefac ( talk) 12:20, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
ABC News rejects Mr Russell’s claims about the content of his conversation with Mark Willacy at a Brisbane bookshop on 28 September 2021) and once in a fairly irrelevant way (
The lead reporter, Mark Willacy, has won a Gold Walkley for his reporting on alleged war crimes). [3] fails to mention Willacy. [4] is primary and I haven't watched it yet. [5] is self-published, although it mentions him once. Of these new sources: 9News mentions him once at the very end (
Investigative journalists Joshua Robertson and Mark Willacy have also been named in the lawsuit); the Lawyerly source is inaccessible to me; Epoch Times is a poor source. The last source mentions Willacy at the very beginning and several more times throughout.
Comment: The October 2020 article didn't identify the commando platoon alleged to be involved in the unlawful killing. After it was published, November platoon commander Heston Russell claimed it did with Media Watch, The Project and 2GB reporting that November platoon was identified. The ABC later in 2022 added a clarification to the article as readers could have misinterpreted the article. In a follow up ABC article in November 2021, November platoon was initially identified as being involved which was later corrected in 2022. Russell's defamation proceeding is for the November 2021 article and for it's hyperlink to the October 2020. [1] [2] The revised wording of the Wikipedia article implies that the platoon was identified in the October 2020 article. User Mark Willacy points out above that the article did not identify a platoon and that a clarification was added. Melbguy05 ( talk) 01:32, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
References