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Mark Judge (writer) article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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This article was nominated for deletion on 19 September 2018. The result of the discussion was keep. |
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This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
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A fact from Mark Judge (writer) appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 1 December 2018 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
|
There should be a section on his activist/political commitments and affiliations now that it is being covered in multiple WP:RS. E.M.Gregory ( talk) 17:59, 18 September 2018 (UTC)
[1]. Sagecandor ( talk) 18:16, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
Sources for development of this article may be located at:
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
Sagecandor ( talk) 19:16, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
Please don't replace last name field with a URL.
As was done, here [2].
This is disruptive.
Sagecandor ( talk) 20:01, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
Please use MDY dates in this article, for citations and body text.
Added template here [3]. Sagecandor ( talk) 20:03, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
This is inappropriate.
Lists articles by the subject in major publications.
Including The Washington Post.
Belongs in this article.
Sagecandor ( talk) 20:29, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
Please provide reliable secondary sources for information you insert into the article. PackMecEng ( talk) 20:49, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
What policy is that listed under? I have given policy reasons why it is no good. Your turn. PackMecEng ( talk) 21:44, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
Comment: I do not frequent Wikipedia talk pages regularly, but in my limited experience, this discussion here (about linking or not linking to articles authored by the subject), seems quite odd. The subject is a writer, and it would naturally occur to any visitor to look at something that writer has written and published. As I just did. Drewkeeling ( talk) 03:27, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
So per WP:Author, does he fit?
1-"The person is regarded as an important figure or is widely cited by peers or successors."
2-"The person is known for originating a significant new concept, theory, or technique."
3-"The person has created or played a major role in co-creating a significant or well-known work or collective body of work. In addition, such work must have been the primary subject of an independent and notable work (for example, a book, film, or television series, but usually not a single episode of a television series) or of multiple independent periodical articles or reviews."
4-"The person's work (or works) either (a) has become a significant monument, (b) has been a substantial part of a significant exhibition, (c) has won significant critical attention, or (d) is represented within the permanent collections of several notable galleries or museums."
From what I see they do not meet any of these requirements. Am I mistaken? PackMecEng ( talk) 02:14, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
Side discussion PackMecEng ( talk) 03:35, 20 September 2018 (UTC)) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
|
It looks like the career section needs a lot of trimming but I am not sure where to start at this point. Anyone have some suggestions? PackMecEng ( talk) 13:37, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
I trimmed the career section down a little, what I could at least. Next would be someone condensing the opinions about it instead of just quoting everything. PackMecEng ( talk) 18:58, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
This is a bit excessive [5].
Propose we summarize the entire article contents, so the intro can function as a standalone summary of the entire article.
Sagecandor ( talk) 20:01, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
Here is significant critical analysis of Judge's writing from 2013. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 02:54, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
"The rest of the piece goes on just like this, which is to say, Mark Judge matching seven made-up virtues with standard anti-Obama boilerplate of the sort you find in big, bold type stamped on unflattering images on your cousin's Facebook wall."
Disagree with removal of sourced info in multiple places:
[7].
It's been widely cited among thousands of secondary reliable sources.
Can we add this back please?
Thanks !
Sagecandor ( talk) 16:03, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
"Mark Judge was implicated in the accusations of sexual assault that surfaced during Kavanaugh's Senate confirmation process."? PackMecEng ( talk) 16:30, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
The allegations currently don't seem leadworthy to me ( WP:NOTNEWS), as there are many more things to also put in the lead. There is no reason to believe that the coverage won't die down soon, and all coverage is directly related to Kavanaugh. I'm personally of the opinion that WP:NOTGOSSIP does not apply because this is too high-profile (by the way, high-profile ≠ long-term significance). Even if an action by Judge influences something related to Kavanaugh, its significance will still have to be debated. I propose removing the paragraph from the lead, until someone finds a retrospective reliable source about this whose subject is Judge, not Kavanaugh. wumbolo ^^^ 21:28, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
by far the most noteworthy facts reported about the subjectyou don't know that. No one knows how sources will talk about Judge in the future. This is WP:Recentism. wumbolo ^^^ 22:06, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/senate-democrats-investigate-a-new-allegation-of-sexual-misconduct-from-the-supreme-court-nominee-brett-kavanaughs-college-years-deborah-ramirez
Brings into doubt Mark Judges story. After seeing Judge’s denial, Elizabeth Rasor, who met Judge at Catholic University and was in a relationship with him for about three years, said that she felt morally obligated to challenge his account that “ ‘no horseplay’ took place at Georgetown Prep with women.” Rasor stressed that “under normal circumstances, I wouldn’t reveal information that was told in confidence,” but, she said, “I can’t stand by and watch him lie.” In an interview with The New Yorker, she said, “Mark told me a very different story.” Rasor recalled that Judge had told her ashamedly of an incident that involved him and other boys taking turns having sex with a drunk woman. Rasor said that Judge seemed to regard it as fully consensual. She said that Judge did not name others involved in the incident, and she has no knowledge that Kavanaugh participated. But Rasor was disturbed by the story and noted that it undercut Judge’s protestations about the sexual innocence of Georgetown Prep. (Barbara Van Gelder, an attorney for Judge, said that he “categorically denies” the account related by Rasor. Van Gelder said that Judge had no further comment.) Another woman who attended high school in the nineteen-eighties in Montgomery County, Maryland, where Georgetown Prep is located, also refuted Judge’s account of the social scene at the time, sending a letter to Ford’s lawyers saying that she had witnessed boys at parties that included Georgetown Prep students engaging in sexual misconduct. In an interview, the woman, who asked to have her name withheld for fear of political retribution, recalled that male students “would get a female student blind drunk” on what they called “jungle juice”—grain alcohol mixed with Hawaiian Punch—then try to take advantage of her. “It was disgusting,” she said. “They treated women like meat.”
Casprings (
talk) 00:43, 24 September 2018 (UTC)
Sagecandor ( talk) 00:53, 24 September 2018 (UTC)
Avenatti told POLITICO he represents a group of individuals who can corroborate allegations involving Kavanaugh and his longtime friend in the 1980s. Avenatti said he'd describe just one of the individuals as a victim. He said the others were witnesses to the allegations.
Sagecandor ( talk) 03:11, 24 September 2018 (UTC)
About 8 hours ago news broke that Julie Swetnick has written a sworn affidavit that sheds some light on this "gentleman's" early life. Comments? Cheers!
--
2602:306:CFCE:1EE0:A9B2:6649:E1DB:3466 (
talk) 00:53, 27 September 2018 (UTC)Doug Bashford
Since there are now Wikipedia articles for all of the books in the "Books" section, should we remove all the inline citations? --- Another Believer ( Talk) 18:52, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
I think mentioning unevidenced sexual allegations in the short intro gives too much undue weight to defamatory content and is against Wikipedia's impartiality. A section already exists discussing the controversies. Omid.espero ( talk) 21:49, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
At this point, this article appears to be the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC (and for foreseeable future). The other Mark Judge (architect) never broke 55 views per month in the past two years (as "Mark Judge", before the move): [8]. Thoughts on this? -- K.e.coffman ( talk) 02:47, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved. There's no consensus for this move at this time. ( non-admin closure) – Ammarpad ( talk) 08:40, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
Mark Judge (writer) →
Mark Judge – Per
WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Widely viewed page and the other Mark Judge is far less known.
Casprings (
talk) 03:26, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
This page seems to be a pretty clear cut instance of WP:BLP1E. I know that this has been discussed before, but is it about time to revive discussion about deleting this page or merging it into another? Wikieditor19920 ( talk) 22:39, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
"person has created or played a major role in co-creating a significant or well-known work or collective body of work."? By all indication he was an obscure author before his name entered the news cycle this last month. Certainly there are more prolific authors who do not have similar pages? Wikieditor19920 ( talk) 23:20, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
Do we have a source his date of birth is September 24, 1964? He was definitely born in 1964 but I'm not sure on the date. ~ EDDY ( talk/ contribs)~ 12:53, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Mark Judge (writer) article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to post-1992 politics of the United States and closely related people, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
This article was nominated for deletion on 19 September 2018. The result of the discussion was keep. |
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
It is requested that an image or photograph be
included in this article to
improve its quality. Please replace this template with a more specific
media request template where possible.
The Free Image Search Tool or Openverse Creative Commons Search may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites. |
A fact from Mark Judge (writer) appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 1 December 2018 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
|
There should be a section on his activist/political commitments and affiliations now that it is being covered in multiple WP:RS. E.M.Gregory ( talk) 17:59, 18 September 2018 (UTC)
[1]. Sagecandor ( talk) 18:16, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
Sources for development of this article may be located at:
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
Sagecandor ( talk) 19:16, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
Please don't replace last name field with a URL.
As was done, here [2].
This is disruptive.
Sagecandor ( talk) 20:01, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
Please use MDY dates in this article, for citations and body text.
Added template here [3]. Sagecandor ( talk) 20:03, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
This is inappropriate.
Lists articles by the subject in major publications.
Including The Washington Post.
Belongs in this article.
Sagecandor ( talk) 20:29, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
Please provide reliable secondary sources for information you insert into the article. PackMecEng ( talk) 20:49, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
What policy is that listed under? I have given policy reasons why it is no good. Your turn. PackMecEng ( talk) 21:44, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
Comment: I do not frequent Wikipedia talk pages regularly, but in my limited experience, this discussion here (about linking or not linking to articles authored by the subject), seems quite odd. The subject is a writer, and it would naturally occur to any visitor to look at something that writer has written and published. As I just did. Drewkeeling ( talk) 03:27, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
So per WP:Author, does he fit?
1-"The person is regarded as an important figure or is widely cited by peers or successors."
2-"The person is known for originating a significant new concept, theory, or technique."
3-"The person has created or played a major role in co-creating a significant or well-known work or collective body of work. In addition, such work must have been the primary subject of an independent and notable work (for example, a book, film, or television series, but usually not a single episode of a television series) or of multiple independent periodical articles or reviews."
4-"The person's work (or works) either (a) has become a significant monument, (b) has been a substantial part of a significant exhibition, (c) has won significant critical attention, or (d) is represented within the permanent collections of several notable galleries or museums."
From what I see they do not meet any of these requirements. Am I mistaken? PackMecEng ( talk) 02:14, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
Side discussion PackMecEng ( talk) 03:35, 20 September 2018 (UTC)) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
|
It looks like the career section needs a lot of trimming but I am not sure where to start at this point. Anyone have some suggestions? PackMecEng ( talk) 13:37, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
I trimmed the career section down a little, what I could at least. Next would be someone condensing the opinions about it instead of just quoting everything. PackMecEng ( talk) 18:58, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
This is a bit excessive [5].
Propose we summarize the entire article contents, so the intro can function as a standalone summary of the entire article.
Sagecandor ( talk) 20:01, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
Here is significant critical analysis of Judge's writing from 2013. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 02:54, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
"The rest of the piece goes on just like this, which is to say, Mark Judge matching seven made-up virtues with standard anti-Obama boilerplate of the sort you find in big, bold type stamped on unflattering images on your cousin's Facebook wall."
Disagree with removal of sourced info in multiple places:
[7].
It's been widely cited among thousands of secondary reliable sources.
Can we add this back please?
Thanks !
Sagecandor ( talk) 16:03, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
"Mark Judge was implicated in the accusations of sexual assault that surfaced during Kavanaugh's Senate confirmation process."? PackMecEng ( talk) 16:30, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
The allegations currently don't seem leadworthy to me ( WP:NOTNEWS), as there are many more things to also put in the lead. There is no reason to believe that the coverage won't die down soon, and all coverage is directly related to Kavanaugh. I'm personally of the opinion that WP:NOTGOSSIP does not apply because this is too high-profile (by the way, high-profile ≠ long-term significance). Even if an action by Judge influences something related to Kavanaugh, its significance will still have to be debated. I propose removing the paragraph from the lead, until someone finds a retrospective reliable source about this whose subject is Judge, not Kavanaugh. wumbolo ^^^ 21:28, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
by far the most noteworthy facts reported about the subjectyou don't know that. No one knows how sources will talk about Judge in the future. This is WP:Recentism. wumbolo ^^^ 22:06, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/senate-democrats-investigate-a-new-allegation-of-sexual-misconduct-from-the-supreme-court-nominee-brett-kavanaughs-college-years-deborah-ramirez
Brings into doubt Mark Judges story. After seeing Judge’s denial, Elizabeth Rasor, who met Judge at Catholic University and was in a relationship with him for about three years, said that she felt morally obligated to challenge his account that “ ‘no horseplay’ took place at Georgetown Prep with women.” Rasor stressed that “under normal circumstances, I wouldn’t reveal information that was told in confidence,” but, she said, “I can’t stand by and watch him lie.” In an interview with The New Yorker, she said, “Mark told me a very different story.” Rasor recalled that Judge had told her ashamedly of an incident that involved him and other boys taking turns having sex with a drunk woman. Rasor said that Judge seemed to regard it as fully consensual. She said that Judge did not name others involved in the incident, and she has no knowledge that Kavanaugh participated. But Rasor was disturbed by the story and noted that it undercut Judge’s protestations about the sexual innocence of Georgetown Prep. (Barbara Van Gelder, an attorney for Judge, said that he “categorically denies” the account related by Rasor. Van Gelder said that Judge had no further comment.) Another woman who attended high school in the nineteen-eighties in Montgomery County, Maryland, where Georgetown Prep is located, also refuted Judge’s account of the social scene at the time, sending a letter to Ford’s lawyers saying that she had witnessed boys at parties that included Georgetown Prep students engaging in sexual misconduct. In an interview, the woman, who asked to have her name withheld for fear of political retribution, recalled that male students “would get a female student blind drunk” on what they called “jungle juice”—grain alcohol mixed with Hawaiian Punch—then try to take advantage of her. “It was disgusting,” she said. “They treated women like meat.”
Casprings (
talk) 00:43, 24 September 2018 (UTC)
Sagecandor ( talk) 00:53, 24 September 2018 (UTC)
Avenatti told POLITICO he represents a group of individuals who can corroborate allegations involving Kavanaugh and his longtime friend in the 1980s. Avenatti said he'd describe just one of the individuals as a victim. He said the others were witnesses to the allegations.
Sagecandor ( talk) 03:11, 24 September 2018 (UTC)
About 8 hours ago news broke that Julie Swetnick has written a sworn affidavit that sheds some light on this "gentleman's" early life. Comments? Cheers!
--
2602:306:CFCE:1EE0:A9B2:6649:E1DB:3466 (
talk) 00:53, 27 September 2018 (UTC)Doug Bashford
Since there are now Wikipedia articles for all of the books in the "Books" section, should we remove all the inline citations? --- Another Believer ( Talk) 18:52, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
I think mentioning unevidenced sexual allegations in the short intro gives too much undue weight to defamatory content and is against Wikipedia's impartiality. A section already exists discussing the controversies. Omid.espero ( talk) 21:49, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
At this point, this article appears to be the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC (and for foreseeable future). The other Mark Judge (architect) never broke 55 views per month in the past two years (as "Mark Judge", before the move): [8]. Thoughts on this? -- K.e.coffman ( talk) 02:47, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved. There's no consensus for this move at this time. ( non-admin closure) – Ammarpad ( talk) 08:40, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
Mark Judge (writer) →
Mark Judge – Per
WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Widely viewed page and the other Mark Judge is far less known.
Casprings (
talk) 03:26, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
This page seems to be a pretty clear cut instance of WP:BLP1E. I know that this has been discussed before, but is it about time to revive discussion about deleting this page or merging it into another? Wikieditor19920 ( talk) 22:39, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
"person has created or played a major role in co-creating a significant or well-known work or collective body of work."? By all indication he was an obscure author before his name entered the news cycle this last month. Certainly there are more prolific authors who do not have similar pages? Wikieditor19920 ( talk) 23:20, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
Do we have a source his date of birth is September 24, 1964? He was definitely born in 1964 but I'm not sure on the date. ~ EDDY ( talk/ contribs)~ 12:53, 24 October 2018 (UTC)