![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | Text and/or other creative content from this version of Maria Valtorta was copied or moved into The Poem of the Man-God with this edit on 14 May 2023. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
|
||
This page has archives. Sections older than 365 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 5 sections are present. |
Noted that the book was placed on the Catholic Index in 1959, and did not receive an imprimatur.
Actually the book and its translations do carry imprimaturs from several Bishops. The Wikipedia page has a link to the imprimatur of Bishop Danylak.
@ Arkenstrone: I see you have been hard at work POV-pushing a narrative by various means.
1) adding unreliable WP:BLOGs and apologetic websites as sources:
Those are not reliable sources, but militant blogs and websites, as I had clearly explained in my numerous edit summaries and you copiously ignored those explanations.
2) restoring a whole paragraph completely unrelated to the content of the article that is OR and uses primary sources ("Regarding the issue of internal consistency and correspondence with the Gospels [...] since at least the time of André Marie Jean Jacques Dupin (1783–1865).")
Again, clearly explained.
3) violating WP:BURDEN by adding back unsourced content
Only reliable sources can be used on WP. OR is not accepted. WP:BURDEN is to be followed.
So, I have reverted your restoring. Veverve ( talk) 11:34, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
The previous historical account was factually incorrect, or missing important information, for example that the Work was removed from the Index of Prohibited Books in 1962. This wasn't even mentioned, which suggests extreme POV-pushing by the other side. I've simply stated additional facts with primary sources to back it up: if you have reliable sources stating this information, feel free to add it to the current version (i.e. not the one with your POV-pushing). Otherwise, do not.
If it's factual (someone actually said it even if it is POV), and there is a source to back it up, and it's pertinent in context, then fine it deserves mention: nope, Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth: something must be reliably sourced (by reliable sources!) to be on Wikipedia, not true or factual.
I've simply stated additional facts with primary sources to back it up: you did not even use primary sources, you used blogs and militant websites. The reliability of a scan of a primary document is only a high as the reliability of the website that hosts it. It is the WP:REPUTABLE source which makes something reliable, not WP:TRUTH. Something being written somewhere publicly does not mean this something is reliable information.
We want people to see both sides, not just one side: WP:FALSEBALANCE. Adding information from apologetic blogs "to be fair and balanced" is not how Wikipedia works.
Capitalization of 'work' is because it refers to a specific substantial work (The Poem of the Man-God) and not to something general: I have never heard of such a rule or practice in my entire life.
Also, you make POV to be some dirty word. Everyone has a POV: on Wikipedia, POV is a behaviour worthy of sanctions, see WP:POV.
you ought to bring attention to that source specifically, and I can have a look at it: I still have not heard convincing explanations as to why all those militant blogs and random websites should be accepted as reliable sources, despite asking. Instead, you restated your point that anything hosted on a website and marked as "official document of XX" is to be believed to be as such, as if those documents could not be faked.
By seeing both sides, I'm referring to the fact that there are two broad factions: those members of the Church who support the Work, and those that don't. Seeing both sides entails hearing what prominent members of both factions have to say about the Work, and then citing them. That makes for a NPOV article: so a false balance based on you own vision of which groups are to be pleased, not WP:NPOV. You seem very focused on "pro-Vlatorta" and "anti-Valtorta", which is not how things are on Wikipedia.
Some of those primary sources happened to be hosted at websites that are admittedly pro-Valtorta in nature, but that shouldn't matter, since we are not concerned with the website itself, but the actual primary source material it contains,
It's the actual primary sources referenced which determine reliability: please re-read my answer, I have already answered this. I can also host alleged "official" documents on my blog that state I have been elected President of Panama or whatnot.
According to you because you have a clear anti-Valtorta POV: nope, see WP:RS. Also, do not WP:PA. And if I do not remove the information that goes along with the source, I may leave a verbatim quote or close paraphrasing, which would be a copyright infringement.
there are two broad groups of experts: those who support Valtorta's work, and those who don't. So we simply present both sides including their best arguments, (NPOV) and let the reader decide: this is exactly what a false balance is. Wikipedia does not let the reader decide. Did you read WP:FALSEBALANCE? Veverve ( talk) 18:57, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
Should the statement by Bouflet that "most of Maria Valtorta's life is known only by the autobiography she wrote" be removed from the article? Arkenstrone ( talk) 17:56, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
Yes, get rid of this pointless little sentence. And let us move on. This sentence sticks out like a sore thuumb has no relevance to the other sections. It is made by an author distinguished by his exceptional sloppiness and inaccuracy. Any user with a brain who knows about the sources out there knows that Bouflet made this statement because he was careless and only checked the books available in French. I do not for one second buy the argument that he thought the other books were by some "crazy militant publisher", because the book he refers to is by the same publisher... chuckle, chuckle...
Does Bouflet make silly mistakes? Plenty. Consider his statement on page 105 of the Kindle version of his book that agave is mentioned 3 times in Valtorta's main book in sections 101, 102 and 127. Do we just quote that in Wikipedia and say "agave is mentioned 3 times in Valtorta's book" because Bouflet wrote it so it is "reliably sourced"? Of course not. Because Bouflet is sloppy and careless and he only noticed half of the places agave is mentioned. It is mentioned 6 times. Bouflet missed sections 67, 221 and 412. So he only noticed half of the places. agave is mentioned in Valtorta's book. And the info in the sections he missed invalidates his argument about the sections he noticed. Similrly, he missed the books by Marta Diciotti etc. about Valtorta's life, because he was careless. As simple as that. And I would not for one second accept the potential argument that Bouflet ignored the other sections because they were in a book by a "crazy militant publisher", given that they are in the same book. Accept the fact that Bouflet is sloppy, sloppy, sloppy. So he can not just be quoted verbatim as a reliable source.
As an other example on page 103 (of the Kindle version) of his book Bouflet says that vanilla did not exist in ancient Judea but on page 106 he says that it did exist in ancient Judea. Which one of these two statements from this highy regarded, highly sloppy author do we include in Wikipedia? An author who is so sloppy and careless to fall over his own shoelaces every few pages is not reliable and can not be just quoted as reliable source. Is that hard to understand? Is it?
Other comments:
Ad Orientem, could you please, please explain to us once again that we should not rely on items such as WP:VNTIA in our arguments. I had never heard of that as a policy, and after I clicked through realized that it is a pointless "user essay" and neither a guideline nor a policy. So I laughed. Thank you Veverve for the continued entertainment. Now should the avoidance of user essays be explained to everyone in English, or perhaps an ancient language, say Aramaic, Hebrew or Koine Greek? That way it may be understood better, perhaps. English does not seem to be getting very far. I say that of course as a joke on Bouflet's insistence that Valtorta should have used the "first century word" for vanilla, and not the Italian word vaniglia in her book. That also made me laugh as I realized that the man has no sense of logic at all. What words should Valtorta have used for bread, wine, river, mountain, tree? Why should vanilla be a special case? The only thing that distinguishes vanilla is Bouflet's ignorance of its existence in ancient Judea. Can an author with such a defective sense of logic be considered reliable? No way.
Veverve, please, please study the subject first before you say anything about it. Do not just repeat everything Bouflet says verbatim. Think and study the subject first. Bouflet makes for a hopeless ventriloquist. No one gains repect by just repeating Bouflet verbatim. Study the subject, study Valtorta's works before you comment on them. Do not discuss what you have not studied. I will let you in on a secret. At the start of our discussion on the other page about the Poem book, I tested your knowledge of ancient Judea with a few simple questions. I soon realized that you had not studied either subject at all. And I mean at all. Please study first, then speak. Do not let Bouflet just speak for you. Study the subjects yourself. Let me explain. As a start I asked you who built the model of the Temple. You said it was the Israel Museum. At that point I understood that you had no idea who Michael Avi-Yonah was. Even the tourists in Jerusalem know that he built the model, and it was moved to the museum later. Those "in the know" also remember that he got a nice chunck of change from the hotel owner for building the model. The fact that you did not know who Avi-Yonah was, told me that you had no idea about the archaeology of ancient Judea. And once it was clear that you had no idea about the numismatic evidence that affects the Second Temple, you total lack of knowledge of the subject was confirmed. Separately, the fact that you did not know what section numbers Bouflet was refering to in Valtorta's book told me that you had not even held the book in your hand! Due to the fact that you do not understand the subject, you have made a mess of the translations and paraphrases you made in the Critisim Section of the Poem page. And of course you had no idea about your own errors. Reminds me of Bouflet not noticing his own errors. So please, please study the subject first, talk later. Do not talk without studying the subject.
Dave Aime, regarding what Bouflet told some newspaper, I would not pay attention to that. He has no idea who Maria Valtorta was because he has not read all the books about her. What is important is what the "local bishop" says. From a religious angle, the statements by the local bishop are very important about anyone who has claimed private revelations or is beng processed for beatification. That is built into the structure of the evaluations. In this case, the local bishop is the Archbishop of Lucca Msgr Paolo Guilietti and he is totally sold on Valtorta, as can be seen in these two videos [2] [3]. A translations of what he said is here [4] in English. And other languages are available here [5]. Now, what does Wiki policy say about youtube videos being used as WP:RS sources? I am not sure if there is a policy or not. And please, let no one immediately suggest that youtube is a "crazy militant" websit etc. @ Ad Orientem, is there any policy about videos? Thanks.
@Everyone: Let us accept that when it comes to the sloppiness of Bouflet, the cat is out of the bag already. People can perform pointless edit wars on the subject on some Wiki pages, but the world at large will figure this out sooner as later. I am sure the Valtorta supporters look at pages like this, figure it out and write their own pieces about it. Then it will be common knowledge on the internet and newspapers will figure it out. No problem, no rush. So please do not get worked up about things, keep your calm and do not waste your life on edit wars. And above all, have a nice weekend. Yesterday, all my dreams... ( talk) 18:23, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
Suggestion for HorseI and Arkenstone Please avoid the "petty bickering" about what the IP said. I could not be bothered. Any IP may be a patient in a mental institute who got access to a computer when the nurse at the front desk went to get a coffee. Or he may be Dan Quayle. It does not matter. What matters is that no one presented a single error in my statements because they do not know enough about the subjects to do so. If someone showed me that I do not understand the archaeology of ancent Judea or have not read Bouflet's book carefully enough then I would feel embarrased. But that has not happened, because I study things carefully. So people just vote by typing Yes/No. It does not take much intelligence to type Yes/No, and anyone with an IQ of 17 can do that and add "reliable" or "unreliable" in the sentence. That is how voting in Wikipedia works. So please do not get excited. I think one way to avoid unnecessary excitement is to look at the "bigger picture" and accept that our little debates here have less than a 0.0001% impact on the perception of Valtorta around the world. Think of it this way, this video [6] talks about and shows the translations of the Poem book into about 30 languages. Of these 20 are complete and ready for purchase from Swahili to Hangul to Malayalam to Romanian, etc. Another 10 will finish in about 2 or 3 years. People who read those 30 languages do not look at English Wikipedia and have no idea who Bouflet is/was. So our discussion here should not assume that it has "cosmic impact". It does not. So please calm down, if you are near a beach go for a swim, if you are near a lake go on a boat, if you are near a meadow, go for a walk, if you are in New York City, accept my condolences. But in any case, do calm down. As a final aside, let me note that the issue is not just a Catholic issue, because the video says that the Russian translation is being done by an Orthodox Russian priest. So it cuts acroos cultures and denominations. Our discussion here is like a small piece of sand on a lrge beach. No need to get excited, please. Yesterday, all my dreams... ( talk) 18:19, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
Time to wrap up: I think it is time to wrap up. Somehow consensus or lack thereof needs to be determined, so we can move on. As WP:Consensus states: "consensus is determined by the quality of arguments (not by a simple counted majority), polls should be regarded as structured discussions rather than voting. Responses indicating individual explanations of positions using Wikipedia policies and guidelines are given the highest weight." Given that most of the votes here were telegraphic I am not sure what will happen, but I do not care either way. So let us wrap up and move on. Thanks. Yesterday, all my dreams... ( talk) 22:02, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
From the results of the vote, it appears that consensus was not achieved. However, one good thing that came from this consensus vote is that it clarifies the underlying issue. One group believes that Bouflet's statement above (and other statements referenced in the sister article), should not be removed because he is a reliable source. The other group believes that Bouflet's statement above (and other statements referenced in the sister article) should be removed, because he is not a reliable source.
Therefore, it appears we may have to RfC in order to either maintain or impeach Bouflet as a reliable source. A WP:RSN [7] has already established that the two biographies written by first-hand witnesses and published by Centro Editoriale Valtortiano, while not an independent publisher, can be used, provided they are used with care and not to justify extraordinary claims, but only for routine biographical information. So it is futile to attack these two biographies and their publisher as "militant" etc. since we've already established they can be used subject to the above provisions.
The first question is, did Bouflet violate basic scholarship by ignoring these two biographies, which contradict his statement above, thus disqualifying him as a reliable source? (He made the provably false claim that almost all that is known about Valtorta is known from her autobiography).
The second question involves determining whether Bouflet is a reliable source in general, for various other points he makes which are referenced in the sister article. @ Yesterday established that several of those points are fraught with serious errors and inconsistencies as well, and as such, Bouflet's scholarship on this topic is, at the very least, of low quality, getting basic facts wrong, and he should therefore not be considered a reliable source in general.
So, next step appears to be an RfC to maintain or impeach Bouflet as a reliable source. Arkenstrone ( talk) 00:16, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
Hello! I saw this page on WP:CR, and I was going to provide a close, but I'm actually not sure what, procedurally, happened here, and I was hoping some editors might clarify. Pinging the users who participated: @ Horse Eye's Back, Yesterday, all my dreams..., Arkenstrone, Dave Aime, Veverve, and Durifon:.
(Full disclosure: I don't consider this to be participating, so I'd personally consider myself still eligible to close the discussion if that's what's called for.)
The discussion was placed under the RFCs section of WP:CR. But was there ever an RFC tag here? I looked at the edit history, and I was unable to find one. (If someone removed it, they did so while also adding a comment of their own, which seems unlikely.) I'd also note that this discussion started 7 days ago; RFCs generally run for 30 days unless discussion dies down or WP:SNOW is invoked. Even if this was an "other type of closing request" ... I'm not sure a close would be appropriate at this time. I've only superficially glanced at the !votes, but things seems fairly evenly split, numbers wise. Of course, consensus is not a vote, but I don't think I've seen an evenly split discussion closed after 7 days before. All this said, if everyone here wants a close, I'll provide one, but I want to make sure that is what everyone wants.-- Jerome Frank Disciple 22:20, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
Thanks. Yesterday, all my dreams... ( talk) 23:17, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
@ Arkenstrone: On inspection this does not appear to be a reliable source, the author does not appear to possess academic credentials and they don't appear notable so their opinion doesn't carry any weight. Can you explain why you think that this source is reliable? Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 00:18, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
A few minor issues need to get fixed in the article.
The first item is the use of ASIN instead of ISBN. I think the Wiki protocol calls for ISBN at the moment, because Amazon has not purchased Wikimedia yet (give it 2 years) and little stores such as Barnes & Noble still use ISBN, rather than ASIN that is just Amazon.
The second item is about external links. At the moment there are none. But Wikipedia:External links says that "Wikipedia articles about any organization, person, website, or other entity should link to the subject's official site, if any." There are two foundations that represent the subject of this article [8] and [9] and they should be in the external links. But I think we should avoid all blogs about the subject.
The third issue is that the article seems to suggest that she wrote "The Poem" first, then the Notebooks. That is not so, as can be seen by the dates on the sections of the book and the Notebooks. In fact she wrote them at the same time mostly from 1943-1947 but the Notebooks were published much later. And she wrote the Poem book out of order, e,g, the first section she wrote on Jan 16 1944 became section 52. The second section she wrote on Jan 21 1944 became section 235, etc. This needs careful sourcing so I would not jump to it yet, but it needs to be sourced and explained later.
The fourth issue is that there are many citation needed tags that can easily be fixed. I do not have time to do them all this week, but can try over the next month. However, help in fixing those will be appreciated. Thanks. Yesterday, all my dreams... ( talk) 18:07, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | Text and/or other creative content from this version of Maria Valtorta was copied or moved into The Poem of the Man-God with this edit on 14 May 2023. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
|
||
This page has archives. Sections older than 365 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 5 sections are present. |
Noted that the book was placed on the Catholic Index in 1959, and did not receive an imprimatur.
Actually the book and its translations do carry imprimaturs from several Bishops. The Wikipedia page has a link to the imprimatur of Bishop Danylak.
@ Arkenstrone: I see you have been hard at work POV-pushing a narrative by various means.
1) adding unreliable WP:BLOGs and apologetic websites as sources:
Those are not reliable sources, but militant blogs and websites, as I had clearly explained in my numerous edit summaries and you copiously ignored those explanations.
2) restoring a whole paragraph completely unrelated to the content of the article that is OR and uses primary sources ("Regarding the issue of internal consistency and correspondence with the Gospels [...] since at least the time of André Marie Jean Jacques Dupin (1783–1865).")
Again, clearly explained.
3) violating WP:BURDEN by adding back unsourced content
Only reliable sources can be used on WP. OR is not accepted. WP:BURDEN is to be followed.
So, I have reverted your restoring. Veverve ( talk) 11:34, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
The previous historical account was factually incorrect, or missing important information, for example that the Work was removed from the Index of Prohibited Books in 1962. This wasn't even mentioned, which suggests extreme POV-pushing by the other side. I've simply stated additional facts with primary sources to back it up: if you have reliable sources stating this information, feel free to add it to the current version (i.e. not the one with your POV-pushing). Otherwise, do not.
If it's factual (someone actually said it even if it is POV), and there is a source to back it up, and it's pertinent in context, then fine it deserves mention: nope, Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth: something must be reliably sourced (by reliable sources!) to be on Wikipedia, not true or factual.
I've simply stated additional facts with primary sources to back it up: you did not even use primary sources, you used blogs and militant websites. The reliability of a scan of a primary document is only a high as the reliability of the website that hosts it. It is the WP:REPUTABLE source which makes something reliable, not WP:TRUTH. Something being written somewhere publicly does not mean this something is reliable information.
We want people to see both sides, not just one side: WP:FALSEBALANCE. Adding information from apologetic blogs "to be fair and balanced" is not how Wikipedia works.
Capitalization of 'work' is because it refers to a specific substantial work (The Poem of the Man-God) and not to something general: I have never heard of such a rule or practice in my entire life.
Also, you make POV to be some dirty word. Everyone has a POV: on Wikipedia, POV is a behaviour worthy of sanctions, see WP:POV.
you ought to bring attention to that source specifically, and I can have a look at it: I still have not heard convincing explanations as to why all those militant blogs and random websites should be accepted as reliable sources, despite asking. Instead, you restated your point that anything hosted on a website and marked as "official document of XX" is to be believed to be as such, as if those documents could not be faked.
By seeing both sides, I'm referring to the fact that there are two broad factions: those members of the Church who support the Work, and those that don't. Seeing both sides entails hearing what prominent members of both factions have to say about the Work, and then citing them. That makes for a NPOV article: so a false balance based on you own vision of which groups are to be pleased, not WP:NPOV. You seem very focused on "pro-Vlatorta" and "anti-Valtorta", which is not how things are on Wikipedia.
Some of those primary sources happened to be hosted at websites that are admittedly pro-Valtorta in nature, but that shouldn't matter, since we are not concerned with the website itself, but the actual primary source material it contains,
It's the actual primary sources referenced which determine reliability: please re-read my answer, I have already answered this. I can also host alleged "official" documents on my blog that state I have been elected President of Panama or whatnot.
According to you because you have a clear anti-Valtorta POV: nope, see WP:RS. Also, do not WP:PA. And if I do not remove the information that goes along with the source, I may leave a verbatim quote or close paraphrasing, which would be a copyright infringement.
there are two broad groups of experts: those who support Valtorta's work, and those who don't. So we simply present both sides including their best arguments, (NPOV) and let the reader decide: this is exactly what a false balance is. Wikipedia does not let the reader decide. Did you read WP:FALSEBALANCE? Veverve ( talk) 18:57, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
Should the statement by Bouflet that "most of Maria Valtorta's life is known only by the autobiography she wrote" be removed from the article? Arkenstrone ( talk) 17:56, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
Yes, get rid of this pointless little sentence. And let us move on. This sentence sticks out like a sore thuumb has no relevance to the other sections. It is made by an author distinguished by his exceptional sloppiness and inaccuracy. Any user with a brain who knows about the sources out there knows that Bouflet made this statement because he was careless and only checked the books available in French. I do not for one second buy the argument that he thought the other books were by some "crazy militant publisher", because the book he refers to is by the same publisher... chuckle, chuckle...
Does Bouflet make silly mistakes? Plenty. Consider his statement on page 105 of the Kindle version of his book that agave is mentioned 3 times in Valtorta's main book in sections 101, 102 and 127. Do we just quote that in Wikipedia and say "agave is mentioned 3 times in Valtorta's book" because Bouflet wrote it so it is "reliably sourced"? Of course not. Because Bouflet is sloppy and careless and he only noticed half of the places agave is mentioned. It is mentioned 6 times. Bouflet missed sections 67, 221 and 412. So he only noticed half of the places. agave is mentioned in Valtorta's book. And the info in the sections he missed invalidates his argument about the sections he noticed. Similrly, he missed the books by Marta Diciotti etc. about Valtorta's life, because he was careless. As simple as that. And I would not for one second accept the potential argument that Bouflet ignored the other sections because they were in a book by a "crazy militant publisher", given that they are in the same book. Accept the fact that Bouflet is sloppy, sloppy, sloppy. So he can not just be quoted verbatim as a reliable source.
As an other example on page 103 (of the Kindle version) of his book Bouflet says that vanilla did not exist in ancient Judea but on page 106 he says that it did exist in ancient Judea. Which one of these two statements from this highy regarded, highly sloppy author do we include in Wikipedia? An author who is so sloppy and careless to fall over his own shoelaces every few pages is not reliable and can not be just quoted as reliable source. Is that hard to understand? Is it?
Other comments:
Ad Orientem, could you please, please explain to us once again that we should not rely on items such as WP:VNTIA in our arguments. I had never heard of that as a policy, and after I clicked through realized that it is a pointless "user essay" and neither a guideline nor a policy. So I laughed. Thank you Veverve for the continued entertainment. Now should the avoidance of user essays be explained to everyone in English, or perhaps an ancient language, say Aramaic, Hebrew or Koine Greek? That way it may be understood better, perhaps. English does not seem to be getting very far. I say that of course as a joke on Bouflet's insistence that Valtorta should have used the "first century word" for vanilla, and not the Italian word vaniglia in her book. That also made me laugh as I realized that the man has no sense of logic at all. What words should Valtorta have used for bread, wine, river, mountain, tree? Why should vanilla be a special case? The only thing that distinguishes vanilla is Bouflet's ignorance of its existence in ancient Judea. Can an author with such a defective sense of logic be considered reliable? No way.
Veverve, please, please study the subject first before you say anything about it. Do not just repeat everything Bouflet says verbatim. Think and study the subject first. Bouflet makes for a hopeless ventriloquist. No one gains repect by just repeating Bouflet verbatim. Study the subject, study Valtorta's works before you comment on them. Do not discuss what you have not studied. I will let you in on a secret. At the start of our discussion on the other page about the Poem book, I tested your knowledge of ancient Judea with a few simple questions. I soon realized that you had not studied either subject at all. And I mean at all. Please study first, then speak. Do not let Bouflet just speak for you. Study the subjects yourself. Let me explain. As a start I asked you who built the model of the Temple. You said it was the Israel Museum. At that point I understood that you had no idea who Michael Avi-Yonah was. Even the tourists in Jerusalem know that he built the model, and it was moved to the museum later. Those "in the know" also remember that he got a nice chunck of change from the hotel owner for building the model. The fact that you did not know who Avi-Yonah was, told me that you had no idea about the archaeology of ancient Judea. And once it was clear that you had no idea about the numismatic evidence that affects the Second Temple, you total lack of knowledge of the subject was confirmed. Separately, the fact that you did not know what section numbers Bouflet was refering to in Valtorta's book told me that you had not even held the book in your hand! Due to the fact that you do not understand the subject, you have made a mess of the translations and paraphrases you made in the Critisim Section of the Poem page. And of course you had no idea about your own errors. Reminds me of Bouflet not noticing his own errors. So please, please study the subject first, talk later. Do not talk without studying the subject.
Dave Aime, regarding what Bouflet told some newspaper, I would not pay attention to that. He has no idea who Maria Valtorta was because he has not read all the books about her. What is important is what the "local bishop" says. From a religious angle, the statements by the local bishop are very important about anyone who has claimed private revelations or is beng processed for beatification. That is built into the structure of the evaluations. In this case, the local bishop is the Archbishop of Lucca Msgr Paolo Guilietti and he is totally sold on Valtorta, as can be seen in these two videos [2] [3]. A translations of what he said is here [4] in English. And other languages are available here [5]. Now, what does Wiki policy say about youtube videos being used as WP:RS sources? I am not sure if there is a policy or not. And please, let no one immediately suggest that youtube is a "crazy militant" websit etc. @ Ad Orientem, is there any policy about videos? Thanks.
@Everyone: Let us accept that when it comes to the sloppiness of Bouflet, the cat is out of the bag already. People can perform pointless edit wars on the subject on some Wiki pages, but the world at large will figure this out sooner as later. I am sure the Valtorta supporters look at pages like this, figure it out and write their own pieces about it. Then it will be common knowledge on the internet and newspapers will figure it out. No problem, no rush. So please do not get worked up about things, keep your calm and do not waste your life on edit wars. And above all, have a nice weekend. Yesterday, all my dreams... ( talk) 18:23, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
Suggestion for HorseI and Arkenstone Please avoid the "petty bickering" about what the IP said. I could not be bothered. Any IP may be a patient in a mental institute who got access to a computer when the nurse at the front desk went to get a coffee. Or he may be Dan Quayle. It does not matter. What matters is that no one presented a single error in my statements because they do not know enough about the subjects to do so. If someone showed me that I do not understand the archaeology of ancent Judea or have not read Bouflet's book carefully enough then I would feel embarrased. But that has not happened, because I study things carefully. So people just vote by typing Yes/No. It does not take much intelligence to type Yes/No, and anyone with an IQ of 17 can do that and add "reliable" or "unreliable" in the sentence. That is how voting in Wikipedia works. So please do not get excited. I think one way to avoid unnecessary excitement is to look at the "bigger picture" and accept that our little debates here have less than a 0.0001% impact on the perception of Valtorta around the world. Think of it this way, this video [6] talks about and shows the translations of the Poem book into about 30 languages. Of these 20 are complete and ready for purchase from Swahili to Hangul to Malayalam to Romanian, etc. Another 10 will finish in about 2 or 3 years. People who read those 30 languages do not look at English Wikipedia and have no idea who Bouflet is/was. So our discussion here should not assume that it has "cosmic impact". It does not. So please calm down, if you are near a beach go for a swim, if you are near a lake go on a boat, if you are near a meadow, go for a walk, if you are in New York City, accept my condolences. But in any case, do calm down. As a final aside, let me note that the issue is not just a Catholic issue, because the video says that the Russian translation is being done by an Orthodox Russian priest. So it cuts acroos cultures and denominations. Our discussion here is like a small piece of sand on a lrge beach. No need to get excited, please. Yesterday, all my dreams... ( talk) 18:19, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
Time to wrap up: I think it is time to wrap up. Somehow consensus or lack thereof needs to be determined, so we can move on. As WP:Consensus states: "consensus is determined by the quality of arguments (not by a simple counted majority), polls should be regarded as structured discussions rather than voting. Responses indicating individual explanations of positions using Wikipedia policies and guidelines are given the highest weight." Given that most of the votes here were telegraphic I am not sure what will happen, but I do not care either way. So let us wrap up and move on. Thanks. Yesterday, all my dreams... ( talk) 22:02, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
From the results of the vote, it appears that consensus was not achieved. However, one good thing that came from this consensus vote is that it clarifies the underlying issue. One group believes that Bouflet's statement above (and other statements referenced in the sister article), should not be removed because he is a reliable source. The other group believes that Bouflet's statement above (and other statements referenced in the sister article) should be removed, because he is not a reliable source.
Therefore, it appears we may have to RfC in order to either maintain or impeach Bouflet as a reliable source. A WP:RSN [7] has already established that the two biographies written by first-hand witnesses and published by Centro Editoriale Valtortiano, while not an independent publisher, can be used, provided they are used with care and not to justify extraordinary claims, but only for routine biographical information. So it is futile to attack these two biographies and their publisher as "militant" etc. since we've already established they can be used subject to the above provisions.
The first question is, did Bouflet violate basic scholarship by ignoring these two biographies, which contradict his statement above, thus disqualifying him as a reliable source? (He made the provably false claim that almost all that is known about Valtorta is known from her autobiography).
The second question involves determining whether Bouflet is a reliable source in general, for various other points he makes which are referenced in the sister article. @ Yesterday established that several of those points are fraught with serious errors and inconsistencies as well, and as such, Bouflet's scholarship on this topic is, at the very least, of low quality, getting basic facts wrong, and he should therefore not be considered a reliable source in general.
So, next step appears to be an RfC to maintain or impeach Bouflet as a reliable source. Arkenstrone ( talk) 00:16, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
Hello! I saw this page on WP:CR, and I was going to provide a close, but I'm actually not sure what, procedurally, happened here, and I was hoping some editors might clarify. Pinging the users who participated: @ Horse Eye's Back, Yesterday, all my dreams..., Arkenstrone, Dave Aime, Veverve, and Durifon:.
(Full disclosure: I don't consider this to be participating, so I'd personally consider myself still eligible to close the discussion if that's what's called for.)
The discussion was placed under the RFCs section of WP:CR. But was there ever an RFC tag here? I looked at the edit history, and I was unable to find one. (If someone removed it, they did so while also adding a comment of their own, which seems unlikely.) I'd also note that this discussion started 7 days ago; RFCs generally run for 30 days unless discussion dies down or WP:SNOW is invoked. Even if this was an "other type of closing request" ... I'm not sure a close would be appropriate at this time. I've only superficially glanced at the !votes, but things seems fairly evenly split, numbers wise. Of course, consensus is not a vote, but I don't think I've seen an evenly split discussion closed after 7 days before. All this said, if everyone here wants a close, I'll provide one, but I want to make sure that is what everyone wants.-- Jerome Frank Disciple 22:20, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
Thanks. Yesterday, all my dreams... ( talk) 23:17, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
@ Arkenstrone: On inspection this does not appear to be a reliable source, the author does not appear to possess academic credentials and they don't appear notable so their opinion doesn't carry any weight. Can you explain why you think that this source is reliable? Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 00:18, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
A few minor issues need to get fixed in the article.
The first item is the use of ASIN instead of ISBN. I think the Wiki protocol calls for ISBN at the moment, because Amazon has not purchased Wikimedia yet (give it 2 years) and little stores such as Barnes & Noble still use ISBN, rather than ASIN that is just Amazon.
The second item is about external links. At the moment there are none. But Wikipedia:External links says that "Wikipedia articles about any organization, person, website, or other entity should link to the subject's official site, if any." There are two foundations that represent the subject of this article [8] and [9] and they should be in the external links. But I think we should avoid all blogs about the subject.
The third issue is that the article seems to suggest that she wrote "The Poem" first, then the Notebooks. That is not so, as can be seen by the dates on the sections of the book and the Notebooks. In fact she wrote them at the same time mostly from 1943-1947 but the Notebooks were published much later. And she wrote the Poem book out of order, e,g, the first section she wrote on Jan 16 1944 became section 52. The second section she wrote on Jan 21 1944 became section 235, etc. This needs careful sourcing so I would not jump to it yet, but it needs to be sourced and explained later.
The fourth issue is that there are many citation needed tags that can easily be fixed. I do not have time to do them all this week, but can try over the next month. However, help in fixing those will be appreciated. Thanks. Yesterday, all my dreams... ( talk) 18:07, 19 June 2023 (UTC)